Is Pop overrated as a GOAT coach?

[90sgoat]

He hasn't been able to deliver anything noteworthy since Duncan and Kawhit left.

I remember he had one good series the least season with Kawhi, when he had Spurs winning and staying competetive in games they definitely shouldn't. That was still some solid role players on that team from the victory days.

Since then, he failed to make a star of LMA, though that's not surprising and he hasn't done anything of note. He's also been underwhelming as US coach.

If Pop is just another coach, then doesn't that move Duncan up the all time great list? Personally I think it does. Duncan is to Pop what MJ is to Phil Jackson.

[Kblaze8855]

No. Teams losing that shouldn’t be winning doesn’t make the coach lose status. Whoever you want to give more status is likely the same. Red never made the finals before Russell despite 3 all nba first teamers at the same time. Kerr has all these rings but his bad teams don’t magically win. Phil Jackson’s teams won when they had prime hall of famers. Or really when they had multiple guys. He didn’t just win when it was Kobe and a normal low end team.

Nobody just coaches so well they win no matter what.

Teams might be better than they should or just pull together and have an ok season but I don’t think you’d call them noteworthy. Pop won 48 games after Duncan and Leonard but I don’t think you consider that noteworthy.

Who just wins no matter what?

Spo?

Larry Brown made a lot of teams better but I don’t know how many you would call great.

What would one of these guys do with this team?


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2401012002160104.jpeg





Is Lenny Wilkens just gonna wave a magic wand and win 53 games?


His bad teams weren’t intended to be good so I don’t know how to call him out for it.

How many teams of his intended to be good and weren’t?

2? Maybe?

[90sgoat]

That's a bad team not gonna lie, but part of that is on Pop drafting those randoms.

Your point about Red Auerbach and Russell is well understood, but that's the point, Duncan won 5 rings and he doesn't get enough credit for it, because of Pop.

No one says that Russell won his rings because of Red.

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody serious says Duncan only won because of Pop. I’m sure someone on earth said it but someone has said everything.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Pop is still tanking and dealing with the results of previous years of tanking. If they don't trade away Murray, White, Poeltl, and whoever else they would have hurt their shot at Wembanyama and though not a good team wouldn't be the awful team they are today. They still want another superstar talent or two to develop alongside Wembanyama and then they will start to build a good roster and get serious about winning. But when a team is tanking it doesn't make sense to say the coach is being exposed.

Now a valid conversation to me is whether or not Pop should get more criticism for not just tanking but being the father of modern tanking (they didn't play David Robinson for a year to get Tim Duncan). But the way its worked out for them I can't say it was the wrong thing to do.

[iamgine]

Now you have to realize that coaches have their ups and down too. No one would deny Rick Carlisle was one of the great coach in 2011 but he couldn't even coach one of the brightest basketball mind in Rondo just a few years later.

[rmt]

He hasn't been able to deliver anything noteworthy since Duncan and Kawhit left.

I remember he had one good series the least season with Kawhi, when he had Spurs winning and staying competetive in games they definitely shouldn't. That was still some solid role players on that team from the victory days.

Since then, he failed to make a star of LMA, though that's not surprising and he hasn't done anything of note. He's also been underwhelming as US coach.

If Pop is just another coach, then doesn't that move Duncan up the all time great list? Personally I think it does. Duncan is to Pop what MJ is to Phil Jackson.

Well, Phil won after MJ while Pop hasn't. All coaches need talent to win.

Pop is a GOAT coach based on his record - that almost 2 decades of being a model franchise was a tremendous stretch of excellence. But he had buy-in from his stars (particularly Duncan) who were foreign-born (different attitude from American-born players) which allowed Pop to use his "tough love" approach. I think Pop is very much a "people" person - excellent relationship skills - able to bring out the very best in each of his players.

But he made 3 glaring mistakes in his long and storied tenure.

1. Taking Duncan out at the end of regulation of 2013 Finals game 6 by playing the percentages (preventing a three). You go with your best players in crunch time especially Duncan (the [at the time - don't know if this has been broken] all-time NBA playoff defensive rebounder) - IMO, this probably cost Duncan another ring and FMVP (and Lebron one ring/FMVP less - which would have matter greatly in GOAT discussions for both of them).

2. I don't think Pop even tried Bowen on Chauncey and Parker on Rip in 2005 Finals. Parker is quick - more able (than Bowen) to chase Rip over screens. Bowen is bigger and stronger than Parker - would not have been muscled and bullied by Chauncey. I believe this bruising series (and the Finals TD doubted the most) would have been shorter and less painful if Pop had a least tried this but he was stuck with Rip was the highest scorer and therefore, his best perimeter defender should be on him.

3. Pop left Splitter on the bench until GAME 4 using only Bonner and Blair (with Duncan) against such a strong frontline like Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph - that's stubbornness and lack of trust in his younger, less experienced (but bigger, stronger) players. This (along with Manu injuring his arm in the final game of the regular season) helped result in a rare 1st round loss.

At the time, I hated Pop's switch to "small ball" in 2006 Mavs series, but it was just a foreshadowing of the coming change to the modern NBA game (and save for this series, Spurs got the better of the Mavs/Suns overall). And the 2013 and 2014 runs were a heartbreaking but SO SWEET end - no players in their prime - just a bunch of talented, versatile (and finally a young, strong (if raw) 3 in Kawhi after the dreadful Richard Jefferson years) mostly veterans.

The icing on the cake was the 2014 Finals - as Bosh said "the best basketball I've ever seen"* vs a tough, veteran defending champion with Lebron in his prime. The "beautiful game" which Kerr patterned and perfected in the upcoming Warrior dynasty - so Pop had his imprint on the game today - thanks for the great run.

*https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/chris-bosh-sums-up-finals-spurs-played-the-best-basketball-ive-ever-seen

[Xiao Yao You]

That's a bad team not gonna lie, but part of that is on Pop drafting those randoms.

Your point about Red Auerbach and Russell is well understood, but that's the point, Duncan won 5 rings and he doesn't get enough credit for it, because of Pop.

No one says that Russell won his rings because of Red.

Pop is the coach. He didn't draft randoms. I always thought he was overrated though

[90sgoat]

Pop is the coach. He didn't draft randoms. I always thought he was overrated though

I'm absolutely sure the only reason Pop stayed on as coach is because he is also a GM type now.

[90sgoat]

Well, Phil won after MJ while Pop hasn't. All coaches need talent to win.

Pop is a GOAT coach based on his record - that almost 2 decades of being a model franchise was a tremendous stretch of excellence. But he had buy-in from his stars (particularly Duncan) who were foreign-born (different attitude from American-born players) which allowed Pop to use his "tough love" approach. I think Pop is very much a "people" person - excellent relationship skills - able to bring out the very best in each of his players.

But he made 3 glaring mistakes in his long and storied tenure.

1. Taking Duncan out at the end of regulation of 2013 Finals game 6 by playing the percentages (preventing a three). You go with your best players in crunch time especially Duncan (the [at the time - don't know if this has been broken] all-time NBA playoff defensive rebounder) - IMO, this probably cost Duncan another ring and FMVP (and Lebron one ring/FMVP less - which would have matter greatly in GOAT discussions for both of them).

2. I don't think Pop even tried Bowen on Chauncey and Parker on Rip in 2005 Finals. Parker is quick - more able (than Bowen) to chase Rip over screens. Bowen is bigger and stronger than Parker - would not have been muscled and bullied by Chauncey. I believe this bruising series (and the Finals TD doubted the most) would have been shorter and less painful if Pop had a least tried this but he was stuck with Rip was the highest scorer and therefore, his best perimeter defender should be on him.

3. Pop left Splitter on the bench until GAME 4 using only Bonner and Blair (with Duncan) against such a strong frontline like Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph - that's stubbornness and lack of trust in his younger, less experienced (but bigger, stronger) players. This (along with Manu injuring his arm in the final game of the regular season) helped result in a rare 1st round loss.

At the time, I hated Pop's switch to "small ball" in 2006 Mavs series, but it was just a foreshadowing of the coming change to the modern NBA game (and save for this series, Spurs got the better of the Mavs/Suns overall). And the 2013 and 2014 runs were a heartbreaking but SO SWEET end - no players in their prime - just a bunch of talented, versatile (and finally a young, strong (if raw) 3 in Kawhi after the dreadful Richard Jefferson years) mostly veterans.

The icing on the cake was the 2014 Finals - as Bosh said "the best basketball I've ever seen"* vs a tough, veteran defending champion with Lebron in his prime. The "beautiful game" which Kerr patterned and perfected in the upcoming Warrior dynasty - so Pop had his imprint on the game today - thanks for the great run.

*https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/chris-bosh-sums-up-finals-spurs-played-the-best-basketball-ive-ever-seen

Good breakdown that explains why he is both a GOAT coach and a flawed one.

True about the 2013 series. If Duncan had won that one, he'd have as good a resume as anyone.

And Lebron wouldn't.

People only remember the outcomes, but we remember how Lebron choked over and over.

[Wardell Curry]

Reading thread title? Yes.

Tim Duncan made most of that man's career and it really is that simple.

But to contradict myself, coaches have peaks/primes as well and he's an old man now, so it's a difficult question to completely answer.

[Street Hunger]

I'm not sure any coach will be doing well this season. for the Spurs, obviously.

is it me or does it feel like the Spurs always either had a really, really good team or a completely rebuilding team come up with not much in the middle? my memory might be hazy.

[Axe]

You have people here whining that he's senile because he can't handle a 'goat' rookie properly.

[90sgoat]

You have people here whining that he's senile because he can't handle a 'goat' rookie properly.

I believe the issue is more that people are confused what Pop is up to, since Spurs have been such a weird half in half out team since trading Kawhi.

The few seasons with LMA without Kawhi didn't make sense at all, should have traded LMA and tanked, but they didn't, leading people to think Pop wouldn't tank.

Then after Pop quit, he tried to run a team with Murray and White, which once again looked weird, because everyone must have been able to tell those guys were not top tier talent, neither were they consistent. Then Spurs drafting Vassel and other very non-Spurs type players.

Overall, I was just very surprised how Spurs did away with their team ball, euro-style culture. Why did Pop agree to draft these athletic types, that didn't fit with what they'd tried to build for 20 years?

It's like if Pop got high on his own supply and thought he could coach anyone, anyhow.

Maybe Pop had some good offensive assistants that he doesn't have anymore. That could explain it.

[Baller234]

I don't care if Pop doesn't have a winning season ever again, he's on the GOAT tier with Red and Phil and you can't take that away from him.

Was ahead of his time.

[ILLsmak]

No. Teams losing that shouldn’t be winning doesn’t make the coach lose status. Whoever you want to give more status is likely the same. Red never made the finals before Russell despite 3 all nba first teamers at the same time. Kerr has all these rings but his bad teams don’t magically win. Phil Jackson’s teams won when they had prime hall of famers. Or really when they had multiple guys. He didn’t just win when it was Kobe and a normal low end team.

Nobody just coaches so well they win no matter what.

Teams might be better than they should or just pull together and have an ok season but I don’t think you’d call them noteworthy. Pop won 48 games after Duncan and Leonard but I don’t think you consider that noteworthy.

Who just wins no matter what?

Spo?

Larry Brown made a lot of teams better but I don’t know how many you would call great.

What would one of these guys do with this team?


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2401012002160104.jpeg





Is Lenny Wilkens just gonna wave a magic wand and win 53 games?


His bad teams weren’t intended to be good so I don’t know how to call him out for it.

How many teams of his intended to be good and weren’t?

2? Maybe?

He could develop a couple of those young guys. Pop is a great coach, but I think he is a bit overrated. His teams were a lot more stacked than people think.

He def did have the euro thing down first. But like dude in another thread saying Tony Parker wouldn't start on most teams, it's like ??? He had deadly role players and stars. He was def a good coach, tho, but I think what people are saying is like if you build a team, and it's like ok I got the squad... who do I want to coach it? Some people would be like OH YEAH GIMME POP, cuz he da bess. But really, he's not haha. He's great, but I think there is a tier above him. He's a hype product of people who like to be contrarian in GOAT discussions.

-Smak

[HoopsNY]

Kawhi missed almost all of the 2018 season and the Spurs still won 47 games and made the playoffs. Then in 2019 they won 48 games and made the playoffs. Both years the Western Conference was stacked. I think that counts for something.

[Lebron23]

I don't care if Pop doesn't have a winning season ever again, he's on the GOAT tier with Red and Phil and you can't take that away from him.

Was ahead of his time.

Hopefully you rest in peace this year

[SaltyMeatballs]

Pop has proven to be a great coach

but...

he's also been extremely fortunate to have coached the players he did. Same can be said for basically any all-time great coach. You think Phil Jackson would've had a championship as a coach if he didn't have MJ, Pippen, Shaq, and Kobe? Or Steve Kerr if he didn't have Curry, Klay, and KD all in their primes?

Being a great coach depends a lot on luck too and what kind of players you're coaching. It makes me wonder how many others coaches would've been regarded all-time greats if they were dealt with great cards right from the beginning.

[paksat]

Him and steve kerr just fall forward no matter what

gets two all time great centers

gets manu, parker, kawhi


I think it says a lot about him how kawhi basically quit on him though