How do you go about ranking Kobe Bryant?

[elementally morale]

I despise Kobe and the way he was, I will admit it. In some ways it blurs my view of him, but I still try to be as objective as I can. I feel having him 8th attests to that.

Give me another player and I'll be glad to dissect them the same way.

Magic Johnson.

[ArbitraryWater]

French championships have always been on clay. Wimbledon has always been on grass.

In 1988, Australian championships changed from grass to hard court.

In 1975, US championships changed from grass to clay (this is why Manuel Orantes and Guillermo Vilas [clay court players] won in 75 and 77). In 1978, it changed from clay to hard court.

So, from 1877 until 1974, all Grand Slams except French championships was played on GRASS. Baller234 mentioned Steph playing in the 60s. My analogy is Federer (and Nadal) playing anytime pre-1975 - their resumes would not be anywhere equivalent.


What kind of useless analogy is that?


"If surfaces were supremely skewed to one players liking, their slam totals would be different!" lol?

[elementally morale]

What kind of useless analogy is that?


"If surfaces were supremely skewed to one players liking, their slam totals would be different!" lol?

You do understand it, the concept is not hard. If the environment suits you better you seem better than you would in a different environment. And vice versa. More indoor tournaments, more power to Becker.

[Baller234]

With a healthy Bynum? Not bad actually. It's a small sample size, but the Lakers were 6-3 without Kobe from '08-'10

Dude stop.

A team led by Gasol, Bynum and Odom doesn't accomplish jack shit. They're a 2nd round team at best, possibly even a 1st round exit. Gasol was a very good player but they are nowhere close to being a great team or an elite team. Add Bean to the equation and they become perennial finals contenders. 3 finals in 3 years, 2 championships in 3 years. One of those championships came from beating an all time great team.

I have Bron very high on my all time list. I think there is at least a case for him being #2 behind Jordan. I would personally take Bean but I don't consider it blasphemy. Bron is a very special player and a one of one.

But there are only so few players in history who you can say "Give him the ball and get the fukk out the way".

Bean is one of those players. Bron is not.

That's why I'm taking Bean.

[Axe]

Dude stop.

A team led by Gasol, Bynum and Odom doesn't accomplish jack shit. They're a 2nd round team at best, possibly even a 1st round exit. Gasol was a very good player but they are nowhere close to being a great team or an elite team. Add Bean to the equation and they become perennial finals contenders. 3 finals in 3 years, 2 championships in 3 years. One of those championships came from beating an all time great team.

I have Bron very high on my all time list. I think there is at least a case for him being #2 behind Jordan. I would personally take Bean I don't consider it blasphemy. Bron is a very special player and a one of one.

But there are only so few players in history who you can say "Give him the ball and get the fukk out the way".

Bean is one of those players. Bron is not.

That's why I'm taking Bean.
Kobe never won a title with a coach not named phil jackson.

[Baller234]

Kobe never won a title with a coach not named phil jackson.

Neither did Air and Air is still the GOAT.

[SATAN]

Kobe stans are the worst fan base in sports history. Completely delusional.

[Baller234]

I'm not even close to being a Kobe stan. I never grew up rooting for him or the Lakers.

[warriorfan]

I'm not even close to being a Kobe stan. I never grew up rooting for him or the Lakers.

Same. I was a bit if a hater but after his 08-10 run there were no legs left to stand on at that point and I appreciated his game.

[Axe]

Neither did Air and Air is still the GOAT.
Who?

[1987_Lakers]

Dude stop.

A team led by Gasol, Bynum and Odom doesn't accomplish jack shit. They're a 2nd round team at best.

You act like that's a bad thing. People clown MJ for the Bulls making it that far without him.

[1987_Lakers]

This is exactly what happened in game 7 vs Boston, luckily the other guys were able to bail him out.

I remember Denver trying a similar strategy in game 7 of 2012, but Kobe was finally smart about it and passed the ball a bit more

Funny enough, I was thinking about that 2012 series earlier today. I remembered in that game 7 where Pau had a crazy sequence where he grabbed like 5 offensive rebounds in a few seconds. I went to see if this really happened or if I'm just remembering stuff wrong. It did in fact happen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXy5zqY3IKU

:oldlol:

[Axe]

Funny enough, I was thinking about that 2012 series earlier today. I remembered in that game 7 where Pau had a crazy sequence where he grabbed like 5 offensive rebounds in a few seconds. I went to see if this really happened or if I'm just remembering stuff wrong. It did in fact happen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXy5zqY3IKU

:oldlol:
Funny how it had to be triggered first with an airball from kobe's shot. :lol

[Cold soul]

Anywhere between 5-12 seems reasonable to me

I agree with that. I personally have him 6th behind MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Wilt.

[ImKobe]

Funny enough, I was thinking about that 2012 series earlier today. I remembered in that game 7 where Pau had a crazy sequence where he grabbed like 5 offensive rebounds in a few seconds. I went to see if this really happened or if I'm just remembering stuff wrong. It did in fact happen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXy5zqY3IKU

:oldlol:

Bro.. Gasol missed 5 or 6 point-blank shots at the rim in that clip. Soft mfer.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bro.. Gasol missed 5 or 6 point-blank shots at the rim in that clip. Soft mfer.


That clip is the opposite of soft you unappreciative mfer :facepalm

[ImKobe]

That clip is the opposite of soft you unappreciative mfer :facepalm

Fk off man I was there in 2012, he was soft af and the reason why they got bounced in the OKC series. Pau in the previous game had 3 points on 1/10 shooting when KB was the only Laker who showed up for it. Almost blew a 3 - 1 lead off that shit. He no showed in the OKC series. I don't wanna hear no revisionist history from the KB haters over a decade later man.

[Jasper]

I rank all players as how good of a teammate they were besides as well as a person , besides stats and chips.

Kobe

Teammate 0
person rapist
stats thru the roof as a ball hog
over all score top 15 (.)

[1987_Lakers]

Fk off man I was there in 2012, he was soft af and the reason why they got bounced in the OKC series. Pau in the previous game had 3 points on 1/10 shooting when KB was the only Laker who showed up for it. Almost blew a 3 - 1 lead off that shit. He no showed in the OKC series. I don't wanna hear no revisionist history from the KB haters over a decade later man.

It sure didn't help that Kobe shot like 42% in that series.

[Hey Yo]

Considering his career really didn't start until the 2005 season when he was mature enough and good enough to lead a team, I have him around the 20's range.

[SouBeachTalents]

Considering his career really didn't start until the 2005 season when he was mature enough and good enough to lead a team, I have him around the 20's range.
You’ve made this point around 3 dozen times, and it frankly has never made sense. Does this mean you don’t have a career if you were never the best player on your team? Does Scottie Pippen only have 1 season that counts towards his career?

[HoopsNY]

It sure didn't help that Kobe shot like 42% in that series.

I recall Kobe being their only shred of hope in that series. And he shot near 43%, 1% point below Pau who is a C and 7'0".

In the final game, Kobe put up 42 points on 55% shooting. Pau shot 36% and had 14 points. Strangely, feels like you've only found a way to demonize Kobe for that series and praise Pau.

[1987_Lakers]

I recall Kobe being their only shred of hope in that series. And he shot near 43%, 1% point below Pau who is a C and 7'0".

In the final game, Kobe put up 42 points on 55% shooting. Pau shot 36% and had 14 points. Strangely, you've only found a way to demonize Kobe for that series and praise Pau.

Kobe was one of the main reasons why the series started 2-0 for OKC, he was horrific to start that series.

[ArbitraryWater]

I recall Kobe being their only shred of hope in that series. And he shot near 43%, 1% point below Pau who is a C and 7'0".

In the final game, Kobe put up 42 points on 55% shooting. Pau shot 36% and had 14 points. Strangely, feels like you've only found a way to demonize Kobe for that series and praise Pau.


and 0 assists.

That series was a joke in home cooking.

Kobe had like b2b 20 FTs in the home games and they were a joke. He also completely choked game 4 away to tie the series.


Lakers entered the 4th quarter up 9, 12 minutes short of a 2-2 series, Kobe then proceeded to chuck his ass off and go 2/10 in the 4th quarter.


Truly horrific.



In fact, Kobe was on the bench to start. The Lakers raised that ead to 11 when Kobe entered with 8 minutes left and he started his 2/10 throwaway...

To make matters worse, dude was actually 1/9 but then took a 2 at the buzzer down 5...

not enough is made of how embarrassing that is.

[Hey Yo]

You’ve made this point around 3 dozen times, and it frankly has never made sense. Does this mean you don’t have a career if you were never the best player on your team? Does Scottie Pippen only have 1 season that counts towards his career?

He refused to be drafted and be the starting SG for the Nets. He chose to only sign with the contending Lakers, knowing their was no chance of starting for them. When you do that without playing a single minute in the NBA , the you get consequences of doing so.

Pippen didnt have that shitty entitlement mindset coming into rhe league. He signed with the team that traded for him with no qualms.

[Cold soul]

He refused to be drafted and be the starting SG for the Nets. He chose to only sign with the contending Lakers, knowing their was no chance of starting for them. When you do that without playing a single minute in the NBA , the you get consequences of doing so.

Pippen didnt have that shitty entitlement mindset coming into rhe league. He signed with the team that traded for him with no qualms.

I guess with this logic players in other pro sports that don’t want to be drafted by that certain franchise are entitlement and are bad too. For example: Eli Manning, John Elway, etc. All those players are HOF at the end of the day nobody cares.

[dankok8]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.


Beyond the stats, what do you make of his 2012 WCSF Game 4, home game to tie the series?

Lakers were up 11 with 8 minutes left in the 4th when Bryant was subbed in, Bryant then went 2/10 to end the game (1/9 before taking a useess 2 at the buzzer) to throw the game away.


Im guessing beyond the stats this ones looks a little better?

[tontoz]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.


That is a bad comparison. Miller took shots that he could make efficiently and didn't hold the ball.

Kobe's idea of shot selection was that if there was a shot available he would select it. He has the most missed shots in league history by far. I've never see anyone take more bad, long jumpers than Kobe. He wouldn't hesitate at all to jack up contested jumpers early in the clock.

[SATAN]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.

:oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

I guess with this logic players in other pro sports that don’t want to be drafted by that certain franchise are entitlement and are bad too. For example: Eli Manning, John Elway, etc. All those players are HOF at the end of the day nobody cares.

Eli's a POS for doing the same. Elway had a promising baseball career to fall back on if he chose to do so.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.
I don't think Kobe would mesh well with another ball-dominant star at all, especially a perimeter one. He had to be the one taking the most shots, scoring the most points, possessing the ball at the end of games. If someone cut into that, he would definitely have a problem with it.

I honestly don't see him fitting alongside better teammates more effectively than LeBron, I think they'd both require a more specific team built around them than the likes of Kawhi or KD. I just don't think Kobe with his mentality/mindset is nearly as portable as you make him out to be.

[RRR3]

I don't think Kobe would mesh well with another ball-dominant star at all, especially a perimeter one. He had to be the one taking the most shots, scoring the most points, possessing the ball at the end of games. If someone cut into that, he would definitely have a problem with it.

I honestly don't see him fitting alongside better teammates more effectively than LeBron, I think they'd both require a more specific team built around them than the likes of Kawhi or KD. I just don't think Kobe with his mentality/mindset is nearly as portable as you make him out to be.
This was literally proven multiple times, look at how Payton and Nash struggled to play with him :lol. He literally made Nash stand in the corner and play like a SG in the latter half of 2013. "B-boo-boo-buh-buh-but they were old" scream the same people who say "LeBron had Rondo and Dwight in 2020" :yaohappy:

[dankok8]

I don't think Kobe would mesh well with another ball-dominant star at all, especially a perimeter one. He had to be the one taking the most shots, scoring the most points, possessing the ball at the end of games. If someone cut into that, he would definitely have a problem with it.

I honestly don't see him fitting alongside better teammates more effectively than LeBron, I think they'd both require a more specific team built around them than the likes of Kawhi or KD. I just don't think Kobe with his mentality/mindset is nearly as portable as you make him out to be.

I'm not saying he is. I'm saying an argument can be made. Because of his superior shooting and off-ball game one can make an argument that he fits next to someone like Wade better than Lebron did. Because Kobe could just let Wade hold the ball so he can exert his maximum impact and then play off of him. And with Shaq, we've seen Kobe make a great fit.

[dankok8]

Beyond the stats, what do you make of his 2012 WCSF Game 4, home game to tie the series?

Lakers were up 11 with 8 minutes left in the 4th when Bryant was subbed in, Bryant then went 2/10 to end the game (1/9 before taking a useess 2 at the buzzer) to throw the game away.


Im guessing beyond the stats this ones looks a little better?

He obviously had a poor game.

[ImKobe]

It sure didn't help that Kobe shot like 42% in that series.

OKC series

Kobe - 31.2 ppg 51.5%TS
Bynum - 16.6 ppg 51.3%TS
Pau - 12 ppg 50.2%TS

But let's blame KB, despite him being more efficient than the two bigs combined :oldlol: .


https://youtu.be/IaOsDQOIB7s

Oh yh and I ain't forgot about this either. Literally threw the series away. Bro wide open throwing the ball away instead of shooting the easy J (with Bynum right there to put it back in if he misses) for a 2 for 1 too.

[ArbitraryWater]

OKC series

Kobe - 31.2 ppg 51.5%TS
Bynum - 16.6 ppg 51.3%TS
Pau - 12 ppg 50.2%TS

But let's blame KB, despite him being more efficient than the two bigs combined :oldlol: .


https://youtu.be/IaOsDQOIB7s

Oh yh and I ain't forgot about this either. Literally threw the series away. Bro wide open throwing the ball away instead of shooting the easy J (with Bynum right there to put it back in if he misses) for a 2 for 1 too.


The pure insanity / cognitive dissonance to blame Gasol for this loss when the lakers increased their 9 pt 4th quarter lead to 11 when Kobe entered with 8 minutes left, ony for Kobe to shoot them out the game with brick after brick going 2/10 is madness.

Kobe entered, took the first 6 shots, all but 1 a brick, froze everyone out in an instant.

Classic.


He obviously had a poor game.


wouldnt want you to overstate it sorry

[999Guy]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.
Was the Kobe Shaq fit even that good?


Shaq’s lob and put back gravity gave Kobe some easy driving lanes, Kobe’s playmaking and athletic slashing gave Shaq easy drop offs and easy dunks.


But for the most part it was turn taking. They didn’t have many dynamic interactions on court. This isn’t Jokic-Murray here at all.

Purely chemistry wise, Kobe and Gasol had way more going. But they clearly weren’t as good if a duo as Shaq-Kobe anyway. Which is to ultimately say, chemistry tends to be overrated.


LeBron and Shaq would overwhelm the West physically in a preposterous way. It wouldn’t even be that fun to watch. LeBron and AD overwhelmed preposterously in the bubble and I barely remember any noteworthy things about it.


Like fixing a cup of coffee, prime LeBron and Shaq rape the early 00’s West in mundane fashion with almost no drama. On or off court.

[ImKobe]

The pure insanity / cognitive dissonance to blame Gasol for this loss when the lakers increased their 9 pt 4th quarter lead to 11 when Kobe entered with 8 minutes left, ony for Kobe to shoot them out the game with brick after brick going 2/10 is madness.

Kobe entered, took the first 6 shots, all but 1 a brick, froze everyone out in an instant.

Classic.




wouldnt want you to overstate it sorry

? Kobe kept them in that game in the 2nd half. Did he miss shots late? Yes. Does that excuse that particular play Nope. Gasol didn't do shit in that series. KB had 22 on 7/17 in the 2nd half. Gasol didn't even crack 15 all series. I'm tired of all the excuses for Pau when people treat him as some superstar in retrospect.

[1987_Lakers]

? Kobe kept them in that game in the 2nd half. Did he miss shots late? Yes. Does that excuse that particular play Nope. Gasol didn't do shit in that series. KB had 22 on 7/17 in the 2nd half. Gasol didn't even crack 15 all series. I'm tired of all the excuses for Pau when people treat him as some superstar in retrospect.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4lTmal6JFQ

[HoopsNY]

Kobe was one of the main reasons why the series started 2-0 for OKC, he was horrific to start that series.

Yea, not denying it wasn't his best series and he had his fair contribution towards the loss, but the first game was a blowout. Pau went 2-2 in the 4th in garbage time, otherwise he was 3-9 for the game.

You gonna tell me that they lost solely because of Kobe in that series? Not to mention, taking away his contribution in the final game as opposed to others?

[ArbitraryWater]

? Kobe kept them in that game in the 2nd half. Did he miss shots late? Yes. Does that excuse that particular play Nope. Gasol didn't do shit in that series. KB had 22 on 7/17 in the 2nd half. Gasol didn't even crack 15 all series. I'm tired of all the excuses for Pau when people treat him as some superstar in retrospect.


Kobe did his job in the 3rd quarter.

The team also performed well without him.

Then he stunk up the joint to historic levels.

They were +6 with Kobe on the bench.

Kobetards try to create this myth about how all of Kobes chucking was necessary, but it wasnt. The team was just fine without him. With Kobe on the floor they were -9 this game.


Nobody makes excuses for Pau. Kobe is just hed to different standards.

This isnt about Pau. Franky hes irrelevant to this thread.

Kobe joined the game up 11, a lead his team maintained and increased without him, and then went 2/10 (1/9 before the useless buzzer beater) in the final 8 minutes.


THAT threw away the series.

[ImKobe]

Kobe did his job in the 3rd quarter.

The team also performed well without him.

Then he stunk up the joint to historic levels.

They were +6 with Kobe on the bench.

Kobetards try to create this myth about how all of Kobes chucking was necessary, but it wasnt. The team was just fine without him. With Kobe on the floor they were -9 this game.


Nobody makes excuses for Pau. Kobe is just hed to different standards.

This isnt about Pau. Franky hes irrelevant to this thread.

Kobe joined the game up 11, a lead his team maintained and increased without him, and then went 2/10 (1/9 before the useless buzzer beater) in the final 8 minutes.


THAT threw away the series.

Pau was a negative in every single game in the series. Kobe had a positive +/- in 2 of them. Pau shot 2/7 in the 4th (he went 2/2 in the 4th in G1 in a blowout loss vs OKC's 2nd unit) & was 0/5 in games 2-5.

All I know is Kobe tied the game and then Pau threw the ball away when he was open for a J with a chance to take the lead and it led to a KD game-winner. Pau and Bynum shot worse than Kobe for the series (worse TS%) and that's with Kobe shooting 11% from 3. When Kobe had his best game of the series in elimination, neither of them showed up in the 2nd half (2/12 combined) and they got blown out.

Keep making excuses for Pau.

[John8204]

Okay question for the thread aside from Jordan what other Shooting Guard would you rank ahead of Kobe

[HoopsNY]

Okay question for the thread aside from Jordan what other Shooting Guard would you rank ahead of Kobe

Wade

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade
Peak for peak? Yeah, you could definitely make that argument.

All-time though? He's a good 10-15 spots behind Kobe :lol

[John8204]

Peak for peak? Yeah, you could definitely make that argument.

All-time though? He's a good 10-15 spots behind Kobe :lol

Yeah I wouldn't have him top five...maybe top ten I would rank Wade with James Harden

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah I wouldn't have him top five...maybe top ten I would rank Wade with James Harden
Yeah, Wade is maybe a top 10 SG.

[dankok8]

Top 10 SG for Wade is really underrating him. You take Jordan, Kobe and West over him. Others are a hard sell. Peak Wade is just so much better than the likes of Harden that extra longevity doesn't move the needle.

[John8204]

Top 10 SG for Wade is really underrating him. You take Jordan, Kobe and West over him. Others are a hard sell. Peak Wade is just so much better than the likes of Harden that extra longevity doesn't move the needle.

George Gervin and Allen Iverson were both better than Wade in my opinion. But on topic maybe you could put West over Kobe which makes Kobe top 15 at worst.

Wade is in the class with Reggie Miller, Pete Maravich, Clyde Drexler, and James Harden. Having watched Reggie and Wade...I think Reggie was better.

[SouBeachTalents]

George Gervin and Allen Iverson were both better than Wade in my opinion. But on topic maybe you could put West over Kobe which makes Kobe top 15 at worst.

Wade is in the class with Reggie Miller, Pete Maravich, Clyde Drexler, and James Harden. Having watched Reggie and Wade...I think Reggie was better.
Yikes.

[John8204]

Yikes.

Well feel free to post your own top ten...Reggie and AI had playoff runs that led to conference finals and finals appearances on their own, Gervin was in the MVP race for many years, Maravich would have averaged 50PPG if they had a 3 point line...Clyde...was okay and Harden was a top ten player for a decade...which is what I would say Wade was.

But if you've got arguements for other people...I'm all ears. But I would sure love to see who we're putting between Kobe and Jordan.

[LAL]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.

Can we stop this dumb shit for once and for all please. Don't be stupid like this.

Agree with the rest of your post.

[HoopsNY]

Peak for peak? Yeah, you could definitely make that argument.

All-time though? He's a good 10-15 spots behind Kobe :lol

Yea if he's assessed based on accomplishments/accolades and and accumulation of stats, then Wade doesn't compare. But I believe Wade's peak was long enough where you can reasonably make an argument for him over Kobe. I wouldn't be mad either way, though.

[HoopsNY]

George Gervin and Allen Iverson were both better than Wade in my opinion. But on topic maybe you could put West over Kobe which makes Kobe top 15 at worst.

Wade is in the class with Reggie Miller, Pete Maravich, Clyde Drexler, and James Harden. Having watched Reggie and Wade...I think Reggie was better.

How can you reasonably make an argument for Reggie over Wade? Wade was a more complete player, far more athletically gifted (which impacted his game while it hurt Reggie's), was a far superior defender and playmaker, and also led his team to a title.

I can't think of any reason to put Reggie over Wade.

[guy]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.

Great post, and great example. Its an extreme example but displays the point well. I'd still probably take Lebron over Kobe because the gap in terms of fitting on a championship team is not nearly as wide as the example you gave and then he has the longevity, but there's a weird narrative that it isn't or was never close between them.

In general, I always thought Kobe was overrated just cause of the comparisons to Jordan - clearly it made sense to compare them based on their personalities and playing style but to me, Kobe was clearly a carbon copy of Jordan, which made them easy to compare and easy to see that he was clearly not as good. With that said, now that comparison is not nearly made as much, he's gotten underrated. Few examples:

-His careers largely overlapped with Shaq and Duncan and he was considered better then both for a significant portion of their careers (and vice-versa) but he's so easily dismissed and ranked below them. I go back and forth between them on who was the best in their era - point is its arguable. Now we have people that argue that Dirk or KG were also better.

-He's concluded and dismissed as being below Magic and Bird - two players that were never defensive players and don't have the longevity that Kobe has.

-People act like he was never the best player in the league, or even worse, there's a revisionist history that he wasn't even considered by the majority of the fans/media as the best. From 06-10 I thought he was basically for the reasons dankok8 said, but I'm not going to argue that point - people today are free to go back and take today's lens to judge him if they want. But what you can't deny is regardless of your opinion, you can't deny that that is what he was considered for a good 5 years. Sure in 09 and 10, alot of people thought Lebron was better, but the vast majority thought he was from 06-08 and then by the time the playoffs ended the next 2 years, probably half if not most were saying it was Kobe over Lebron. There's a handful of players in history (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron?) that could say they were considered that for that long.

I wonder how Kobe's career would be considered if he had more then 1 MVP. I wouldn't say he actually deserves more then 1 based on how he fit with the criteria year to year, but he's clearly someone who's greatness is one of someone that should have probably at least 3 MVPs like Jordan, Lebron, Magic and Bird.

-People look at his stats and ignore the fact that he played in the most stats deflationary era and say he wasn't that good, especially when they compare it to this era. Do people really think Kobe isn't putting up ridiculous numbers in this era? Do people really think guys like SGA, Booker and Mitchell are better then Kobe?

[tpols]

How can you reasonably make an argument for Reggie over Wade? Wade was a more complete player, far more athletically gifted (which impacted his game while it hurt Reggie's), was a far superior defender and playmaker, and also led his team to a title.

I can't think of any reason to put Reggie over Wade.

Reggie was a better offensive player tbh over their primes of which Millers was like twice as long. He's a far better shooter overall and more efficient in the playoffs in a defensive climate where games were uglier and great efficiency like a 120 ORTG was very hard to come by.

Peak Wade was obviously better but what Reggie did with those Pacers teams leading them through the playoffs every year and his best ever teammates being Rik Smits and Jalen Rose? I don't think Wade does any better.

[1987_Lakers]

Reggie was a better offensive player tbh over their primes of which Millers was like twice as long. He's a far better shooter overall and more efficient in the playoffs in a defensive climate where games were uglier and great efficiency like a 120 ORTG was very hard to come by.

Peak Wade was obviously better but what Reggie did with those Pacers teams leading them through the playoffs every year and his best ever teammates being Rik Smits and Jalen Rose? I don't think Wade does any better.

It's funny how you always bring up ORTG when discussing '95 Drexler & Reggie, but ignore Gasol's ORTG in '09 & '10 runs when discussing Kobe.

I personally don't put too much value on individual ORTG.

[tpols]

It's funny how you always bring up ORTG when discussing '95 Drexler & Reggie, but ignore Gasol's ORTG in '09 & '10 runs when discussing Kobe.

I personally don't put too much value on individual ORTG.

The volumes aren't even close to the same with gasol and Kobe... so you're doing an apples to oranges comparison. Which makes no sense. It's a gigantic difference.

Reggie has 10 playoff series averaging 25ppg and a handful averaging ~30ppg. Pau has 0.

Reggie also was the top dog offensively on his teams, he scored by far the most points in Pacers history... while Pau was a 2nd option without the main focus of the defense being on him.

It's not an apples to apples comparison.

[ArbitraryWater]

This dude brings up Ortg at the most random times lmao


And then he makes weird ass qualifiers for the relevance of it, like here.


Um, Reggie averaged 25 ppg in a series a couple times so we can use Ortg for him..


haha

[1987_Lakers]

The volumes aren't even close to the same with gasol and Kobe... so you're doing an apples to oranges comparison. Which makes no sense. It's a gigantic difference.

The volumes aren't close to the same with Hakeem & Clyde. Hakeem took like 12 more shots than Drexler in the playoffs, but you always bring up Clyde's ORTG during that run. Hypocrite.

[tpols]

The volumes aren't close to the same with Hakeem & Clyde. Hakeem took like 12 more shots than Drexler in the playoffs, but you always bring up Clyde's ORTG during that run. Hypocrite.

Yes and nobody ever said Clyde was > Hakeem. You're making up arguments that were never stated by anybody.

What was being brought up was the fact that Clyde had true star playoff run in 1995 that's never brought up (until I did). People act like the Rockets were Hakeem plus bums but in 1995 that simply wasn't the case.

You guys didn't know that so I brought it up.

[HoopsNY]

Kobe is a guy who stats underrate. His well-rounded game with ability to excel on-ball and off-ball made him able to fit many systems (=flexibility) and also fit along other ball-dominant stars (scalability). Even though someone like Lebron is individually statistically superior to Kobe, there is an argument to make that Shaq/Kobe was a better duo than Shaq/Lebron would be. It's not clear cut but it's possible that Kobe is a worse individual player but fits better alongside better teammates which makes him more valuable for building a championship caliber team. That's where I'd start if I was arguing for Kobe anyway.

A more extreme analogy would be James Harden vs. Reggie Miller. Harden is individually better but many people would rather build a championship team with Reggie because his skills fit better alongside other high level (on-ball) players.

This is actually an excellent analysis. It's one of the reasons why I wouldn't fault a person putting Duncan ahead of LeBron, for the reasons you've stated.

Playing off the ball is a huge element, especially within a system, and for that reason, I think it could be argued that Duncan fits the mold more easily given his ability to win alongside and default to other (much lesser) players, while still contributing to a top tiered offense.

I don't think the same can be said about LeBron. I think you need a lot more talent and variations of shooters are needed around LeBron in order to win.

As for Kobe, I suppose the same could be said, but I'm not sure that is the case. Could Kobe/Shaq work better? Maybe. But the second stint of 3 finals showed that Kobe did need the ball in his hands, and a plug and play of any variation wouldn't necessarily yield championship material.

Put it this way...if you maintain most of those Miami, San Antonio, and Lakers teams, but you insert Melo into any of them while swapping out the team's 2nd best player, the Spurs are the only team I believe that would have won a title with Melo because of what Duncan brought to the table.

I don't believe the same would have happened with LA or Miami. And for those reasons, I think it's more easy to build around Duncan.

[HoopsNY]

Reggie was a better offensive player tbh over their primes of which Millers was like twice as long. He's a far better shooter overall and more efficient in the playoffs in a defensive climate where games were uglier and great efficiency like a 120 ORTG was very hard to come by.

Peak Wade was obviously better but what Reggie did with those Pacers teams leading them through the playoffs every year and his best ever teammates being Rik Smits and Jalen Rose? I don't think Wade does any better.

Jalen Rose was an excellent second option in 2000. His game was much more versatile than Reggie by then and he was actually a point forward. Rose led the team in scoring that season if you recall.

I'd also not underrate Smits the way you are. The Dunking Dutchman peaked at around 18.5 PPG on high efficiency in an era that saw juggernauts like Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Zo, etc.

He did it on a contender and was giving 20-23 PPG in the postseason sometimes (on great efficiency). Shaq in 2006 was solid but how far off was Smits from him, really, when Shaq gave 18/10 on high efficiency?

[tpols]

Jalen Rose was an excellent second option in 2000. His game was much more versatile than Reggie by then and he was actually a point forward. Rose led the team in scoring that season if you recall.

I'd also not underrate Smits the way you are. The Dunking Dutchman peaked at around 18.5 PPG on high efficiency in an era that saw juggernauts like Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Zo, etc.

He did it on a contender and was giving 20-23 PPG in the postseason sometimes (on great efficiency). Shaq in 2006 was solid but how far off was Smits from him, really, when Shaq gave 18/10 on high efficiency?

That completely pales in what Wade had to work with playing with Shaq who was 2nd in MVP voting in their 1st year together and peak / prime Lebron Big 3 Heat. I'm not saying Rose and Smits weren't good but it's a fact Wade had far more help in his career than Reggie did and he played in a more offensive friendly era post 2005 rule changes. Reggies overall 24 ppg playoff average from 1990 to 2002 would be more like 27 or 28 ppg in the late 2000s and 30+ppg today where teams drop like 130 points per game instead of the ugly low scoring playoff games of the 90s.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Anywhere from 7-12. I have Kobe around 9 just based on what he accomplished throughout his career.

Strictly peak and prime play though? When we're talking about overall impact and statistical dominance...there are a few players on Kobe's level and arguably better.

D-Wade was one of those guys. For example, I'd take him from '08-13 over Kobe. Really the only thing separating the two was the role played. Well that and Kobe's 3PT shooting. One could say, though, they value Wade's consistency on defense along with his ability to penetate and playmake.

lol @ Reggie being 'better'. Reggie was never on Kobe or LeBron's level, so why would he be on Wade's. Thanks for the laugh :lol

[999Guy]

This is actually an excellent analysis. It's one of the reasons why I wouldn't fault a person putting Duncan ahead of LeBron, for the reasons you've stated.

Playing off the ball is a huge element, especially within a system, and for that reason, I think it could be argued that Duncan fits the mold more easily given his ability to win alongside and default to other (much lesser) players, while still contributing to a top tiered offense.

I don't think the same can be said about LeBron. I think you need a lot more talent and variations of shooters are needed around LeBron in order to win.

As for Kobe, I suppose the same could be said, but I'm not sure that is the case. Could Kobe/Shaq work better? Maybe. But the second stint of 3 finals showed that Kobe did need the ball in his hands, and a plug and play of any variation wouldn't necessarily yield championship material.

Put it this way...if you maintain most of those Miami, San Antonio, and Lakers teams, but you insert Melo into any of them while swapping out the team's 2nd best player, the Spurs are the only team I believe that would have won a title with Melo because of what Duncan brought to the table.

I don't believe the same would have happened with LA or Miami. And for those reasons, I think it's more easy to build around Duncan.

Duncan stunted Manu Gibobili’s game for years, how in the hell is he a better offensive fit than LeBron. Duncan is dumber and less skilled than LeBron offensively across the board.


Duncan’s defense otoh, half the reason he’s even a legend, actually would impact nearly every team the same way across the board. But that was mostly a 5 year run from 99 - 04, his health and motor was hit it miss after that come playoff time.

[John8204]

How can you reasonably make an argument for Reggie over Wade? Wade was a more complete player, far more athletically gifted (which impacted his game while it hurt Reggie's), was a far superior defender and playmaker, and also led his team to a title.

I can't think of any reason to put Reggie over Wade.

Wade was more atheltic than Reggie but Miller was a far better shooter than Wade. Reggie was also more productive for a longer period of time needing less talent around him than Wade. I don't think Wade ever led any team to a title...he helped his team to a title Lebron, Shaq, Payton, Bosh, and Mourning also had a hand in those titles.

[tpols]

Wade was more atheltic than Reggie but Miller was a far better shooter than Wade. Reggie was also more productive for a longer period of time needing less talent around him than Wade. I don't think Wade ever led any team to a title...he helped his team to a title Lebron, Shaq, Payton, Bosh, and Mourning also had a hand in those titles.

Wade did a lead a team to a title in 2006... the calls were whack giving him a 100 FTs in one series which was a modern day record but peak Wade was 30/6/6 MVP type guy on a different level... but like you said Reggie lasted longer, was even more efficient in a tougher era, and he played with way less help. People stay sleeping on Reggie Miller. He was the GOAT shooter before Curry hopped on the scene and as it turns out shooting a basketball extremely well matters a lot in basketball.

[dankok8]

Great post, and great example. Its an extreme example but displays the point well. I'd still probably take Lebron over Kobe because the gap in terms of fitting on a championship team is not nearly as wide as the example you gave and then he has the longevity, but there's a weird narrative that it isn't or was never close between them.

In general, I always thought Kobe was overrated just cause of the comparisons to Jordan - clearly it made sense to compare them based on their personalities and playing style but to me, Kobe was clearly a carbon copy of Jordan, which made them easy to compare and easy to see that he was clearly not as good. With that said, now that comparison is not nearly made as much, he's gotten underrated. Few examples:

-His careers largely overlapped with Shaq and Duncan and he was considered better then both for a significant portion of their careers (and vice-versa) but he's so easily dismissed and ranked below them. I go back and forth between them on who was the best in their era - point is its arguable. Now we have people that argue that Dirk or KG were also better.

-He's concluded and dismissed as being below Magic and Bird - two players that were never defensive players and don't have the longevity that Kobe has.

-People act like he was never the best player in the league, or even worse, there's a revisionist history that he wasn't even considered by the majority of the fans/media as the best. From 06-10 I thought he was basically for the reasons dankok8 said, but I'm not going to argue that point - people today are free to go back and take today's lens to judge him if they want. But what you can't deny is regardless of your opinion, you can't deny that that is what he was considered for a good 5 years. Sure in 09 and 10, alot of people thought Lebron was better, but the vast majority thought he was from 06-08 and then by the time the playoffs ended the next 2 years, probably half if not most were saying it was Kobe over Lebron. There's a handful of players in history (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron?) that could say they were considered that for that long.

I wonder how Kobe's career would be considered if he had more then 1 MVP. I wouldn't say he actually deserves more then 1 based on how he fit with the criteria year to year, but he's clearly someone who's greatness is one of someone that should have probably at least 3 MVPs like Jordan, Lebron, Magic and Bird.

-People look at his stats and ignore the fact that he played in the most stats deflationary era and say he wasn't that good, especially when they compare it to this era. Do people really think Kobe isn't putting up ridiculous numbers in this era? Do people really think guys like SGA, Booker and Mitchell are better then Kobe?

A major reason Kobe only has 1 MVP is that his teammates floundered in many of his peak years like 2003, 2006 and 2007. In 2003, the Lakers had very little depth beyond their top 2 and in 2006 and 2007 just not enough talent. If your team starts Smush, Kwame/Mihm and Luke Walton you probably aren't winning too many games. Those Kobe seasons are as strong or stronger than many MVP seasons in NBA history but they coincided with having poor teams.

[HoopsNY]

Duncan stunted Manu Gibobili’s game for years, how in the hell is he a better offensive fit than LeBron. Duncan is dumber and less skilled than LeBron offensively across the board.

Duncan stunted his game for years? Can you explain? I don't quite remember it that way and given the Pop system, I'm not sure how that would even be the case.

Obviously Duncan is less skilled than LeBron offensively, I never debated that.


Duncan’s defense otoh, half the reason he’s even a legend, actually would impact nearly every team the same way across the board. But that was mostly a 5 year run from 99 - 04, his health and motor was hit it miss after that come playoff time.

Point being, Duncan could be a dynamic offensive player if he wanted to, simply because his post game was so good. But even when the focus shifted to running the offense through the perimeter and opening up the floor for shooters, it yielded just as good results.

Add his defensive ability and it solidifies a solid case for him being easier to build around IMO.

[John8204]

Wade did a lead a team to a title in 2006... the calls were whack giving him a 100 FTs in one series which was a modern day record but peak Wade was 30/6/6 MVP type guy on a different level... but like you said Reggie lasted longer, was even more efficient in a tougher era, and he played with way less help. People stay sleeping on Reggie Miller. He was the GOAT shooter before Curry hopped on the scene and as it turns out shooting a basketball extremely well matters a lot in basketball.

Yeah I'm okay with people ranking Wade ahead of Miller. Wade was the best player in 06 I don't know if I would credit him as the leader the team had five all-star vets (Walker, Williams, O'Neal, Payton, and Mourning). Reggie was to me a better elevator of lower talent guys, and I do think he's the best shooter of the shooting gaurds. But both guys are within three or four spots of each other. And Kobe was better and more successful than both of them...even though Reggie was a better shooter and Wade the better teammate.

[Hey Yo]

Reggie was a better offensive player tbh over their primes of which Millers was like twice as long. He's a far better shooter overall and more efficient in the playoffs in a defensive climate where games were uglier and great efficiency like a 120 ORTG was very hard to come by.

Peak Wade was obviously better but what Reggie did with those Pacers teams leading them through the playoffs every year and his best ever teammates being Rik Smits and Jalen Rose? I don't think Wade does any better.

Are you suggesting that Reggie was considered a superstar also, just like Wade was referred to?

[HoopsNY]

That completely pales in what Wade had to work with playing with Shaq who was 2nd in MVP voting in their 1st year together and peak / prime Lebron Big 3 Heat. I'm not saying Rose and Smits weren't good but it's a fact Wade had far more help in his career than Reggie did and he played in a more offensive friendly era post 2005 rule changes. Reggies overall 24 ppg playoff average from 1990 to 2002 would be more like 27 or 28 ppg in the late 2000s and 30+ppg today where teams drop like 130 points per game instead of the ugly low scoring playoff games of the 90s.


Wade was more atheltic than Reggie but Miller was a far better shooter than Wade. Reggie was also more productive for a longer period of time needing less talent around him than Wade. I don't think Wade ever led any team to a title...he helped his team to a title Lebron, Shaq, Payton, Bosh, and Mourning also had a hand in those titles.

I think you guys are underrating the Pacers' cast tbh. Indy was top 10 in ORTG every year from 1989-2000 with the exception of two years. In 1999 and 2000, they were ranked #1. That didn't come on the back of Reggie alone. In fact, I can't really think of any team that had 12 years of producing a top 10 (and sometimes top 5) offense for 90% of the years where it boiled down to just 1 guy.

By 1994, Smits had become an integral part of that offense. In fact, his FGA usually rivaled Reggie's, but during the mid 90s, Smits was actually their 1st option sometimes:

'94 Smits: 11.8 FGA
'94 Reggie: 13.2 FGA

'95 Smits: 13.6 FGA
'95 Reggie: 13.5 FGA

'96 Smits: 14.2 FGA
'96 Reggie: 14.0 FGA

'97 Smits: 14.1 FGA
'97 Reggie: 15.4 FGA

'98 Smits: 14.2 FGA
'98 Reggie: 13.3 FGA

2000 Rose averaged 15.0 FGA to Reggie's 12.9.

Shaq was an 18/10 player in the playoffs of '06. That isn't that far removed from what Smits was giving. I remember Smits in those days, he was excellent in the post with an excellent mid-range game. He frustrated the hell out of the Knicks and Magic.

Btw, Miami was 7th in ORTG in 2006 and 11th out of 16 teams in the playoffs. I'm not minimizing Wade's cast, but doing so with the Pacers would be unfair as well.

[LeGoat4Life]

Kobe is ranked anywhere between 6-8 (along side with Shaq and Duncan)

Lebron is anywhere between 9-13

[Iverson3]

12th

[SouBeachTalents]

Reggie being better than Wade is an absolutely wild take :lol Wade was a BITW caliber player for several years, his peak was brief but not Bill Walton, while seriously, how many years was Reggie a top 10 player in the league? Dude never even made am=n All-NBA 2nd Team and never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting in his career.

[John8204]

Reggie being better than Wade is an absolutely wild take :lol Wade was a BITW caliber player for several years, his peak was brief but not Bill Walton, while seriously, how many years was Reggie a top 10 player in the league? Dude never even made am=n All-NBA 2nd Team and never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting in his career.

Well Wade is being supported by someone who can't seem to make a top ten list of SG's. I have Reggie in the top ten for the 90's...here's a list that you aren't going to do...

1. MJ, 2. Hakeem, 3. Stockton, 4. Shaq 5. Barkley, 6.Robinson, 7. Malone, 8. Pippen, 9. Reggie 10. Ewing
1. Lebron 2. Kobe 3. Duncan 4 Dirk, 5 KG, 6 Iverson, 7. Kidd, 8. Wade 9. Pierce 10. Nash

I don't know if you want to call Shaq a 90's or 00's player but I have Wade and Reggie at basically the same spot.

[Soundwave]

I have him top 10, but if you're talking like just sheer talent level/skill level, I think he's honestly probably top 3-4. He's the second best scorer in the history of the game I think, Jordan would be 1, he's 2. In terms of competiveness, I think he's one of the top 3-4 as well, he was something else.

For people who slight him and put him out of their top 10 that fine, but I think those people even know, if there was some kind of hypothetical basketball nirvana where all the best players were put into a gym in their peak/prime and you told Kobe "hey you're not even one of the 10 best players here" that crazy mother****er would go on a rampage and probably light up almost all the players that are supposedly "better" than him to prove a point.

[SATAN]

I have him top 10, but if you're talking like just sheer talent level/skill level, I think he's honestly probably top 3-4. He's the second best scorer in the history of the game I think, Jordan would be 1, he's 2.

Why?


For people who slight him and put him out of their top 10 that fine, but I think those people even know, if there was some kind of hypothetical basketball nirvana where all the best players were put into a gym in their peak/prime and you told Kobe "hey you're not even one of the 10 best players here" that crazy mother****er would go on a rampage and probably light up almost all the players that are supposedly "better" than him to prove a point.

This is some made up fantasy in your head.

[tpols]

Reggie being better than Wade is an absolutely wild take :lol Wade was a BITW caliber player for several years, his peak was brief but not Bill Walton, while seriously, how many years was Reggie a top 10 player in the league? Dude never even made am=n All-NBA 2nd Team and never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting in his career.

Can you provide one post that says as overall players Reggie > Wade? I haven't seen one yet.

The media for some reason didn't like Reggie. He was kind of villain type guy. His game wasn't sexy, he didn't have any athleticism, and he was kind of skinny and ugly but what he did on the court was extremely effective. Leading those Pacer teams to the playoffs every year and a few deep runs is impressive given the lack of star power talent he had.

Kobe and Wade got to play with Shaq and Lebron. Reggie got Jalen Rose and Rik Smits. Pretty huge difference.

[Soundwave]

If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.

[Axe]

If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.
People would respect him more as a great scorer had he gotten similar scores or points on lesser shots, not the way he did it his usual way. But because he believed that is shows him off to be 'hardworking', that's what happened. At the expense of being a team player tho, hence why it infuriated his coach and many of his teammates bt.

[HoopsNY]

If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.

These are interesting points. I'm curious as to how this differs from say, Hakeem? Kobe learned his footwork from Hakeem, which elevated his game. Hakeem during his peak years saw consistent doubles or triples, but he was not one who really forced a shot. In fact, if you recall the '96 series against Seattle, their consistent triple teaming him was what resulted in a poor series.

With Kobe, he would get trapped sometimes on one on ones and still force it. So I think there's a lot to be said about that given the results (sometimes inefficiency and less than desirable results in the clutch).

I do mostly agree with him as a scorer but is he really ahead of KD? Granted, KD's numbers are inflated due to this era, but I think one could make an argument that he's ahead of Kobe in that regard.

Great point with regards to the combination of Offense+Defense+5/7 Championships not equaling top 10. It doesn't really make sense in that regard.

The only problem with that is the other guys in the top 10 are similar in that respect with the exception of maybe Magic. Even Bird was All-Defensive selected 3x in his first 5 years before being moved to the SF position where he became an elite help defender.

I wouldn't be mad at anyone who ranks Kobe top 10, but I think he's just outside of it.

[Phoenix]

I do mostly agree with him as a scorer but is he really ahead of KD? Granted, KD's numbers are inflated due to this era, but I think one could make an argument that he's ahead of Kobe in that regard.



Kobe has more in his bag, especially once he added a post-game, on top of more counters based on what the defender was doing. Durant being a 7 foot sniper is as simple as a crossover or maybe a double crossover and he'll just rise up and rip it. Nobody outside of Giannis or now Wemby has the size/athleticism/mobility to really challenge his shot. Durant is obviously a better pure shooter, and took better shots( aided by the aforementioned traits). Could be bothered more by physicality than Kobe( mind you Kobe had his struggled with physical defense too, especially in some of his finals). I never saw KD as having much of a 'gunner' mindset given his scoring prowess, he generally seems to stay in pocket in terms of shot attempts( career high 37). I wouldn't mind seeing a situation where he just went fukkit and got up 40-45 shots and he was having a great shooting night. Out of all the scorers nowadays he's the most notable person to have not gone for 70 yet ( and Steph I suppose).

[RogueBorg]

Well Wade is being supported by someone who can't seem to make a top ten list of SG's. I have Reggie in the top ten for the 90's...here's a list that you aren't going to do...

1. MJ, 2. Hakeem, 3. Stockton, 4. Shaq 5. Barkley, 6.Robinson, 7. Malone, 8. Pippen, 9. Reggie 10. Ewing
1. Lebron 2. Kobe 3. Duncan 4 Dirk, 5 KG, 6 Iverson, 7. Kidd, 8. Wade 9. Pierce 10. Nash



No way in hell is Reggie ahead of Ewing. Reggie did one thing and one thing only...shoot, and it's not like he scored alot either. He didn't play D, he didn't get assists, he couldn't rebound, didn't get steals nor block shots. All the things DWade could do. It's foolishness to think Miller>DWade.

BTW, Stockton ahead of Shaq, Barkley, Robinson, Malone is just trolling.

[dankok8]

Kobe has more in his bag, especially once he added a post-game, on top of more counters based on what the defender was doing. Durant being a 7 foot sniper is as simple as a crossover or maybe a double crossover and he'll just rise up and rip it. Nobody outside of Giannis or now Wemby has the size/athleticism/mobility to really challenge his shot. Durant is obviously a better pure shooter, and took better shots( aided by the aforementioned traits). Could be bothered more by physicality than Kobe( mind you Kobe had his struggled with physical defense too, especially in some of his finals). I never saw KD as having much of a 'gunner' mindset given his scoring prowess, he generally seems to stay in pocket in terms of shot attempts( career high 37). I wouldn't mind seeing a situation where he just went fukkit and got up 40-45 shots and he was having a great shooting night. Out of all the scorers nowadays he's the most notable person to have not gone for 70 yet ( and Steph I suppose).

KD never even had 60 I think...

[Phoenix]

KD never even had 60 I think...

You're right, I thought he did but he got 55 against the Hawks on April 2, 2022.

[dankok8]

You're right, I thought he did but he got 55 against the Hawks on April 2, 2022.

Yea he can get 30 effortlessly but he isn't one of those players to often explode for a lot. Has relatively few 40+ and 50+ games. Kareem was similar.

[3ba11]

.
Kobe was superior prime vs prime since Kobe always played much better than Lebron when they faced the same playoff opponent - he did so 5/5 times when Kobe was still in his prime:



08' Kobe vs Spurs'............... 29 on 53%
07' Lebron vs Spurs............. 22 on 36%

08' Kobe vs Celtics'.............. 26 on 41%
08' Lebron vs Celtics............ 26 on 36%

2010 Kobe vs Celtics'........... 29 on 41%
2010 Lebron vs Celtics......... 26 on 44%

2011 Kobe vs Mavs'............. 22 on 40%
2011 Lebron vs Mavs........... 18 on 47%

09' Kobe vs Magic'............... beat Magic
09' Lebron vs Magic............. lost to Magic*

* as favorite due to excessive ball-dominant stats and goat choke in Game 4 (7 TO in fourth & OT), and decided to guard Lee instead of Hedo

[Axe]

.
Kobe was superior prime vs prime since Kobe always played much better than Lebron when they faced the same playoff opponent - he did so 5/5 times when Kobe was still in his prime:



08' Kobe vs Spurs'............... 29 on 53%
07' Lebron vs Spurs............. 22 on 36%

08' Kobe vs Celtics'.............. 26 on 41%
08' Lebron vs Celtics............ 26 on 36%

2010 Kobe vs Celtics'........... 29 on 41%
2010 Lebron vs Celtics......... 26 on 44%

2011 Kobe vs Mavs'............. 22 on 40%
2011 Lebron vs Mavs........... 18 on 47%

09' Kobe vs Magic'............... beat Magic
09' Lebron vs Magic............. lost to Magic*

* as favorite due to excessive ball-dominant stats and goat choke in Game 4 (7 TO in fourth & OT), and decided to guard Lee instead of Hedo
And these are cherry-picked stats, i assume?

[John8204]

No way in hell is Reggie ahead of Ewing. Reggie did one thing and one thing only...shoot, and it's not like he scored alot either. He didn't play D, he didn't get assists, he couldn't rebound, didn't get steals nor block shots. All the things DWade could do. It's foolishness to think Miller>DWade.

BTW, Stockton ahead of Shaq, Barkley, Robinson, Malone is just trolling.

John Stockton is the best pure PG of all-time...this is in my opinion. You bring up all the things Ewing did and yet you don't respect Stockton. A guy who played his role as the third or fourth option when it came to scoring and elevated his teammates...not just Karl Malone but also Hornadek, Jeff Malone, and Thurl Bailey. The man was also a steals machine which means getting extra possessions which helps your team win. We talk about guards defensive based on media awards but Stockton's analytics are insane. He's number 3 all time when it comes to VORP behind Jordan and Lebron.

Reggie and Ewing are close in my eyes but I would give Reggie the edge. I agree with you that Ewing had more tools to win, and in the regular season Patrick was significantly better. However head to head in the playoffs Reggie has the better record and he's the better shooter.

[Carbine]

Duncan stunted Manus growth?

I've heard it all now....

[HoopsNY]

Duncan stunted Manus growth?

I've heard it all now....

Yea, first I'm hearing of this myself. Anyone who watched the 2005 playoffs would vehemently disagree. And that was just Manu's third year in the league.

[Phoenix]

Reggie and Ewing are close in my eyes but I would give Reggie the edge. I agree with you that Ewing had more tools to win, and in the regular season Patrick was significantly better. However head to head in the playoffs Reggie has the better record and he's the better shooter.

Ewing and Reggie play two completely different positions and have different skillsets. Ewing was a better shotblocker and rebounder. Pointless observation yes? So would be using shooting as an arguing point for Reggie.

[Thenameless]

-He's concluded and dismissed as being below Magic and Bird - two players that were never defensive players and don't have the longevity that Kobe has.
?

I value defense, and less so longevity. That being said, Kobe's advantage on defense over those two (which only exists for quick point of attack players as the other two would be better at guarding bigger players) would not overcome the advantage that Bird and Magic bring to the rest of the game. I think a similar modern comparison would be Giannis vs Jokic. Bird/Magic/Jokic bring a strong culture and cohesion that permeates the whole team's attitude and is very conducive to winning. Kobe and Giannis are outstanding individual talents that don't elevate their teammates to the same degree.

[bizil]

SOME REASONS WHY you could list Kobe in the top 5 GOAT are:

- Over 30,000 points

- 5 Rings (on all five title teams he was the closer EVEN THOUGH Shaq was the best player for the first 3)

- When u combine scoring skillset, handles, passing for his position, rebounding for his position, and defense ARGUABLY the most skilled player of all time.

- In terms of LONGEVITY, he was a great player LONGER than any SG to ever play.

- Was THE FACE OF THE NBA at one point in time. He's one of the VERY SMALL amount of guys who ACTUALLY transcended the NBA!

I got MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic as my top 4 GOAT. They have the BEST BALANCE of GOAT criteria. That criteria is:

- Team Accolades

- Solo Accolades

- Numbers

- Peak-prime value

- Longevity being great

- Impact on the league (rules change because of you, being a true face of the league helping grow the game, redefining a position or style of play, etc.)

The MVP count is what hurts Kobe in comparison to these four. The MVP is OFTEN based on media narratives. Many of those voters are casual fans as well. THEY AREN'T students of the game like us on here. But in ANY SPORT, it's HELLA RARE when you have players the stature of Kobe and Shaq WITH only one MVP. But BOTH check so many other boxes that I see why people include them in a top 5 GOAT. Bill Russell's peak-prime value ISN'T CLOSE to top 10 of all time.

BUT his solo accolades, team accolades, and impact on the game are SO GREAT that he deserves to be in the top 5 GOAT. My only locks are MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic for the top 5 GOAT. After that, Wilt, Bill Russell, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Duncan I'M SURE have many people putting them in the top 5 GOAT for various reasons. Not to mention you have Steph,KD, Joker, and Giannis who have the GOODS to shake up the top 10 GOAT list at some point too. But when it comes to Kobe DOES HE bring enough to the table to be top 5 GOAT DESPITE having only 1 regular season MVP. I would say YES!

[Baller234]

Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.

[Nowitness]

Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.

If we apply this same logic to LA, Shaq went 36-8 in games Kobe missed, Kobe went 55-47 in games Shaq missed.

[Carbine]

Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.


Dumb narrative. Guess what happens when you take away a great #2 on a team? They get worse! It's incredible isn't it?

Jokic without Murray is not winning anything if importance. It's not a knock on an ATG when you take away their great #2 and the team can't win.

[tpols]

SOME REASONS WHY you could list Kobe in the top 5 GOAT are:

- Over 30,000 points

- 5 Rings (on all five title teams he was the closer EVEN THOUGH Shaq was the best player for the first 3)

- When u combine scoring skillset, handles, passing for his position, rebounding for his position, and defense ARGUABLY the most skilled player of all time.

- In terms of LONGEVITY, he was a great player LONGER than any SG to ever play.

- Was THE FACE OF THE NBA at one point in time. He's one of the VERY SMALL amount of guys who ACTUALLY transcended the NBA!

I got MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic as my top 4 GOAT. They have the BEST BALANCE of GOAT criteria. That criteria is:

- Team Accolades

- Solo Accolades

- Numbers

- Peak-prime value

- Longevity being great

- Impact on the league (rules change because of you, being a true face of the league helping grow the game, redefining a position or style of play, etc.)

The MVP count is what hurts Kobe in comparison to these four. The MVP is OFTEN based on media narratives. Many of those voters are casual fans as well. THEY AREN'T students of the game like us on here. But in ANY SPORT, it's HELLA RARE when you have players the stature of Kobe and Shaq WITH only one MVP. But BOTH check so many other boxes that I see why people include them in a top 5 GOAT. Bill Russell's peak-prime value ISN'T CLOSE to top 10 of all time.

BUT his solo accolades, team accolades, and impact on the game are SO GREAT that he deserves to be in the top 5 GOAT. My only locks are MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic for the top 5 GOAT. After that, Wilt, Bill Russell, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Duncan I'M SURE have many people putting them in the top 5 GOAT for various reasons. Not to mention you have Steph,KD, Joker, and Giannis who have the GOODS to shake up the top 10 GOAT list at some point too. But when it comes to Kobe DOES HE bring enough to the table to be top 5 GOAT DESPITE having only 1 regular season MVP. I would say YES!

Yea... Kobe was one of those guys even your mom who doesn't watch a lick of basketball would know. Up there with Jordan, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Bron etc. Even guys like Garnett and Dirk and Jokic are unknown to the general public that don't follow ball.

[tpols]

If we apply this same logic to LA, Shaq went 36-8 in games Kobe missed, Kobe went 55-47 in games Shaq missed.

And then Shaq would get swept out the playoffs without prime Kobe or Wade two GOAT shooting guards. He wasn't good enough to win with Penny who was a Pippen or Pau level player.

[RogueBorg]

Okay question for the thread aside from Jordan what other Shooting Guard would you rank ahead of Kobe

No one. Kobe is the second greatest SG ever.

[RogueBorg]

Wade was more atheltic than Reggie but Miller was a far better shooter than Wade. Reggie was also more productive for a longer period of time needing less talent around him than Wade. I don't think Wade ever led any team to a title...he helped his team to a title Lebron, Shaq, Payton, Bosh, and Mourning also had a hand in those titles.

Reggie Miller couldn't pass, couldn't rebound, and couldn't play defense. He has zero rings, zero scoring titles, zero assist titles, zero steals titles, nothing. No MVP's, no All-Star MVP's, no FMVP's again nothing. He only ever received MVP votes in 1998 and 2000 out of the 18 seasons he played. All he could do was shoot.

[John8204]

Reggie Miller couldn't pass, couldn't rebound, and couldn't play defense. He has zero rings, zero scoring titles, zero assist titles, zero steals titles, nothing. No MVP's, no All-Star MVP's, no FMVP's again nothing. He only ever received MVP votes in 1998 and 2000 out of the 18 seasons he played. All he could do was shoot.

Win Shares -
Reggie 15th
Wade - 46th

VORP
22. Reggie Miller* 66.07
23. Paul Pierce* 65.54
24. Scottie Pippen* 63.18
25. Dwyane Wade* 62.80

I mean really...he couldn't pass and rebound....
Rebounds 4,933 (4.7 rpg)
Assists 5,701 (5.4 apg)

Rebounds 4,182 (3.0 rpg)
Assists 4,141 (3.0 apg)

Those are pretty good numbers seeing as he was playing with Mark Jackson and Detlef Schrempf. I'm not saying it's wrong to put Wade ahead of Reggie it's a choice I watched both players growing up and Reggie was better in my opinion. But as I said with the Kobe thing...how many SG's are you putting between Reggie and Wade

[Carbine]

I usually don't get involved in the player vs player debates because usually it's not so wrong to be on one side or the other that it's worth arguing over.

But Miller vs Wade needs to be addressed. Wade was a better player in his peak, without a debate. He has a title as the undisputed lead man (Miller didn't do this) and he was viewed as at worst a top 3 player in his peak years (Miller never did this)

As pure basketball players he could create far beyond Miller ever could. He was a better defender in all facets.

[Axe]

Win Shares -
Reggie 15th
Wade - 46th

VORP
22. Reggie Miller* 66.07
23. Paul Pierce* 65.54
24. Scottie Pippen* 63.18
25. Dwyane Wade* 62.80

I mean really...he couldn't pass and rebound....
Rebounds 4,933 (4.7 rpg)
Assists 5,701 (5.4 apg)

Rebounds 4,182 (3.0 rpg)
Assists 4,141 (3.0 apg)

Those are pretty good numbers seeing as he was playing with Mark Jackson and Detlef Schrempf. I'm not saying it's wrong to put Wade ahead of Reggie it's a choice I watched both players growing up and Reggie was better in my opinion. But as I said with the Kobe thing...how many SG's are you putting between Reggie and Wade
Why don't you just tell that you credit miller this much because he represents the first team that kobe faced in the finals? :confusedshrug:

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Oh wow, you went to made up advanced statistics. What good is TS% when you're shooting free throws to ice the game? How come these invented statistics are only relevant when you want it to be?

And even if we were to play your game, Lebron's career TS% is .58 and Kobe's is .55. Oh wow, a whole 3% difference. I guess that's sure fire proof that Lebron was the better basketball player.


It’s not sure-fire proof, but the superficial closeness only underscores that basketball, like most sports, is a game of fine margins at the top. It doesn’t, however, make it any less of a tick in LeBron’s favour.

3% (you’re rounding down btw, it’s 3.8%) is a rounding error over the course of a game. Over the course of a career, it’s a hearty advantage.




Also I'm curious, does this logic still apply? It looks like Lebron's highest TS% for a season was .64 back in 2012.

Here are the players who had a higher TS% than that just last season:

- Zion
- Giannis
- Curry
- Durant
- Jokic

I guess considering that these players had more efficient seasons than Lebron had throughout his entire career, they all must be better than Lebron.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

I don’t think ‘87 was touting LeBron’s efficiency edge as the sole reason for his superiority.

Beyond that, one has to adjust for offensive environment; failing to relativize makes the comparison disingenuous. LeBron’s highest TS+ in a season was 120. Here were theirs last year:

Jokic - 121
Durant - 116
Curry - 113
Zion - 112
Giannis - 111

Most of these guys are on the shortlist of most efficient scorers in league history, so it’s no shame on LeBron for them to rival him in that regard…but it doesn’t necessitate them being better players, nor was that 87’s argument. I’m sure none of us here would feel any consternation about admitting that Durant, for instance, is a better scorer than LeBron while simultaneously trailing him as a basketball player.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Good thread btw, sparked some nice discussion. Kobe is and probably always will be a polarizing player. He is a poster-boy (for better and worse) of two separate schools of thought/types of fans. Even just my own opinion about him as a basketball player has swung wildly — as a kid I regularly watched him play foil to my Kings, and held him in the highest esteem as a result. As time wore on I could no longer entertain the idea of him holding off LeBron in the all-time rankings, much as I tried (believe it or not, I was a huge LeBron hater right up to my late teens).

Now, well, I still think he’s nowhere near LeBron (lol), but nonetheless believe the analytics-adjacent folks actually underrate him. I recently heard the Wages of Wins folks claim he isn’t a Top 25 player OAT and had to do a double and triple-take. The less poindexter-y ones like Taylor can see the forest for the trees (his characterization of Kobe’s “inelastic offence” persuasively argues that he received too much flak for his supposed “inefficiency”)…but they’re not always the norm. Kobe had a very balanced floor game with a lot hidden strengths (turnover economy, sneaky-great court vision, good rebounding for a guard) and also authored a handful of high-quality defensive seasons. If his offensive and defensive peaks overlapped, I’d have him in my Top 8. If he actually earned *all* of those All-D selections, he’s pushing Top 5…but we know he didn’t. Currently, these are the guys I rank ahead:

Jordan
LBJ
KAJ
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Wilt

He is in the next cluster of players, roughly interchangeable with West, Big O and Curry.

So, he’s somewhere in the 11-14 slots.

Sidenote but, if there’s one player I really waffle on, it’s KG. No one without an agenda can look at the rosters and situations surrounding him in his first 12 years (iow, most of his prime) and argue he should’ve eked a title. He was flanked with a terrible supporting cast (aside from perhaps ‘04) and one of the worst owners in league history. I still think he was a tier below Duncan, but is it entirely coincidental that once their supporting casts were basically equalized, so too was their output and effect on winning (well, more or less)? No one had a more wasted prime. If I had a bit more conviction I’d probably lump him in with Kobe. But I don’t, so I won’t. Ergo, 11-14.

[Walk on Water]

Lebron was a shot away from 2013 being another 2011.

Ray saved his legacy because up to that point Pop had employed the "sag defense" and limited him. Everybody forgot about boris diaw memes because of Rays shot. Bron basically went off only after Ray flipped the momentum and snatched victory from the certain Jaws of defeat.

Then the Heat went on to get blown out by the biggest margin of victory in NBA Finals history the next year besides Lebrons loss to the warriors in 2018.

Lebron literally holds records for being blown out after team hopping all around the league. :roll:

Even internationally outside the NBA brand Lebron was on bronze teams and needed Kobe to go off in The Championship game vs Spain to win Gold.

Kobe was just... better at basketball.


This


This


This

[guy]

I value defense, and less so longevity. That being said, Kobe's advantage on defense over those two (which only exists for quick point of attack players as the other two would be better at guarding bigger players) would not overcome the advantage that Bird and Magic bring to the rest of the game. I think a similar modern comparison would be Giannis vs Jokic. Bird/Magic/Jokic bring a strong culture and cohesion that permeates the whole team's attitude and is very conducive to winning. Kobe and Giannis are outstanding individual talents that don't elevate their teammates to the same degree.

I think its arguable between the 3. One thing to think they're better, but people act like they're on a whole other tier. Thats absurd to me. Kobe's also not just a better defender, he's clearly a better scorer, and he's easily greater when it comes to longevity, especially Bird.

You can easily argue Giannis over Jokic. In fact, I would say up until last year, Giannis was the better player year-to-year, he has been relevant longer (all-star since 2017, Jokic has been since 2019) and he's easily the better defender. So from a career standpoint, I'd probably still say Giannis is greater.

[Phoenix]

Sidenote but, if there’s one player I really waffle on, it’s KG. No one without an agenda can look at the rosters and situations surrounding him in his first 12 years (iow, most of his prime) and argue he should’ve eked a title. He was flanked with a terrible supporting cast (aside from perhaps ‘04) and one of the worst owners in league history. I still think he was a tier below Duncan, but is it entirely coincidental that once their supporting casts were basically equalized, so too was their output and effect on winning (well, more or less)? No one had a more wasted prime. If I had a bit more conviction I’d probably lump him in with Kobe. But I don’t, so I won’t. Ergo, 11-14.

Yeah, we pretty much saw what peak KG could do when he had good support( WCFs in 2004, his MVP year) and I'm sure he could have done more with Ginobi/Parker and the rest of the Spurs cast that won titles. If I had to guess, peak KG could have won that 99 chip with end of prime Robinson, and the 2014 title with Kawhi, Parker, Ginobli and co. I don't think he duplicates what Duncan did in 2003 staring down Shaq in the post, and I don't think he wins in 2005 or 2007 with what the West conference was at that point. So a possible 2 titles out of the 5 Duncan one( which speaks to what you said about a tier below). Maybe more like a half a tier, mainly because KG was at best what I would call a very good scorer but not really a dominant one. Duncan's peak scoring averages weren't a level above, but he could anchor your offense from the post. KG didn't have that type of offensive game so he was best as a 1B scoring option who could quarterback the defense( like the 2008 Celtics).

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah, we pretty much saw what peak KG could do when he had good support( WCFs in 2004, his MVP year) and I'm sure he could have done more with Ginobi/Parker and the rest of the Spurs cast that won titles. If I had to guess, peak KG could have won that 99 chip with end of prime Robinson, and the 2014 title with Kawhi, Parker, Ginobli and co. I don't think he duplicates what Duncan did in 2003 staring down Shaq in the post, and I don't think he wins in 2005 or 2007 with what the West conference was at that point. So a possible 2 titles out of the 5 Duncan one( which speaks to what you said about a tier below). Maybe more like a half a tier, mainly because KG was at best what I would call a very good scorer but not really a dominant one. Duncan's peak scoring averages weren't a level above, but he could anchor your offense from the post. KG didn't have that type of offensive game so he was best as a 1B scoring option who could quarterback the defense( like the 2008 Celtics).
I'm curious why you feel that way, ESP '07 when they received a huge break against their only legit opponent, then had an absolute cakewalk the last 2 rounds of the playoffs. And in regards to '05, it'd be hard to imagine KG playing much worse offensively than Duncan did in the Finals.

[Phoenix]

I'm curious why you feel that way, ESP '07 when they received a huge break against their only legit opponent, then had an absolute cakewalk the last 2 rounds of the playoffs. And in regards to '05, it'd be hard to imagine KG playing much worse offensively than Duncan did in the Finals.

I'm between two minds on 2007, ultimately I leaned no. Yes that series against the Suns was very controversial but I'm not convinced the Spurs wouldn't have won regardless, would have been a close call one way or another. 2005, I could see KG struggling moreso against that Pistons frontline. You had guys like Rasheed and McDyess there who could physically match up with him, Prince as a quicker lateral defender with good length, and Wallace in the back.

Those aren't hard-coded takes on my part, I just don't feel particularly as strong about those years as I do 99 and 2014. The thing is, the call between them at their respective best probably comes down to specific things that Duncan may have weathered better than any tangible gap in talent or ability. Duncan had a strong lower base which made him more ideal for more physical playoff basketball, but we're talking minute stuff where the ball bounces a bit differently in certain situations affecting the end result.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm between two minds on 2007, ultimately I leaned no. Yes that series against the Suns was very controversial but I'm not convinced the Spurs wouldn't have won regardless, would have been a close call one way or another. 2005, I could see KG struggling moreso against that Pistons frontline. You had guys like Rasheed and McDyess there who could physically match up with him, Prince as a quicker lateral defender with good length, and Wallace in the back.

Those aren't hard-coded takes on my part, I just don't feel particularly as strong about those years as I do 99 and 2014.
I feel like '07 is as easy of a title (outside of KD on the Warriors :lol) that a superstar could win. Just FYI in 3 games that season, KG averaged 34/15 on 62% against Phoenix, of course it's all pure speculation, but I would find it hard to believe a guy who busted them up during the regular season couldn't have won on that Spurs team, esp with Phoenix getting shafted with the suspensions. Then you follow that up with probably the easiest final 2 opponents any title team has faced in decades, personally, I would be quite confident KG could seal the deal that season.

I agree '05 is not as clear cut, but if you look at how KG performed h2h against Detroit in '04 & '05 compared to Duncan, he fared much better.

[Phoenix]

I feel like '07 is as easy of a title (outside of KD on the Warriors :lol) that a superstar could win. Just FYI in 3 games that season, KG averaged 34/15 on 62% against Phoenix, of course it's all pure speculation, but I would find it hard to believe a guy who busted them up during the regular season couldn't have won on that Spurs team, esp with Phoenix getting shafted with the suspensions. Then you follow that up with probably the easiest final 2 opponents any title team has faced in decades, personally, I would be quite confident KG could seal the deal that season.



He does in 2007 if he can duplicate the season success you mention in the playoffs against the Suns and if it's a fairly seamless plug and play overall, because the Spurs with KG are a different team than with Duncan even if the two may have been roughly in the same tier at their respective bests. The playoffs present different challenges when you're playing a team over a fortnight and you're specifically game-planning and making adjustments, so hard to definitely make the call on this alternative scenario. Amare isn't considered on those guys level overall, but in 2007 he's trading blows with them both and it would be interesting to see a matchup with KG. But yeah, the Cavs in the finals aren't providing much resistance assuming a KG Spurs squad gets out of the west.

[rmt]

2005 Game 7 had 14 personal fouls on Ben, Rasheed and McDyess - they used up their fouls defending Duncan. IMO, KG would have struggled more against Detroit's frontline. And I still maintain that series would have been easier if Pop had tried Bowen on Chauncey and Parker on Rip.

2007 Spurs' run was pretty easy once they got past Suns (who Spurs pretty much always had their way with) - witnessed by Pop's fist pump exiting the court in last win - he knew that was championship.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Yeah, we pretty much saw what peak KG could do when he had good support( WCFs in 2004, his MVP year) and I'm sure he could have done more with Ginobi/Parker and the rest of the Spurs cast that won titles. If I had to guess, peak KG could have won that 99 chip with end of prime Robinson, and the 2014 title with Kawhi, Parker, Ginobli and co. I don't think he duplicates what Duncan did in 2003 staring down Shaq in the post, and I don't think he wins in 2005 or 2007 with what the West conference was at that point. So a possible 2 titles out of the 5 Duncan one( which speaks to what you said about a tier below). Maybe more like a half a tier, mainly because KG was at best what I would call a very good scorer but not really a dominant one. Duncan's peak scoring averages weren't a level above, but he could anchor your offense from the post. KG didn't have that type of offensive game so he was best as a 1B scoring option who could quarterback the defense( like the 2008 Celtics).



Great post.

Yeah, Garnett’s uniquely distributed skillset make him a hard one to really pin down. Most fans are first-option-scoring-biased and Garnett’s one of the few post-Russell greats that could’ve spearheaded a dynastic team without really great scoring. The only problem is that, fair or not, he didn’t actually prove it. So even though I can easily imagine a world where, for instance, a Wolves-bound Kobe and Lakers-bound Garnett end up swapping title counts, Kobe’s real-life contributions on 5 title-winning teams temper these considerations.

That said, I too like me some hypotheticals, so:

Definitely agree that Garnett wouldn’t go 5/5 if his corresponding versions were superimposed on to each of those title-winning teams, but that’s somewhat luck-based (as you kind of touch on in later posts). I don’t think one could reasonably expect even Duncan to replicate all 5 wins each time, if do-overs were forced — if you reset the deck then even seasons like ‘03 are in question, since both C-Webb and Dirk were felled by injury that year.

Imo a Garnett-led Spurs team would have strong chances in all 5 years (he was basically washed in ‘14, but I imagine Duncan might’ve been too by then, if he assumed KG’s workload in Minny) but probably win 2 or 3 of those, as you say. 4 is possible, but probably a 90th-95th percentile outcome, or thereabouts.

However, who’s to say he couldn’t earn some ground back in the remaining years, the ones where TD didn’t win? The Spurs had a vastly superior defensive supporting cast in ‘04, and this was KG’s best year. Likewise the ‘10-‘11 Spurs probably would’ve fared better with KG that year, all else remaining the same. TD was terrible against the Grizz and had his worst regular season up to that point.

So, we diverge on some of the particulars but seem to be aligned on their general standing as players.

[Baller234]

I just think overall, people get far too caught up in stats. To me they have always been nothing more than a reference point.

Two things that people need to always remember:

- It's a team game, not an individual game
- The goal is not to rack up stats, the goal is to win

Being great means knowing how to win. It means knowing when to take over as well as knowing when to defer. There are countless variables that go totally unnoticed in the box score. It's something you can gauge only from actually watching the game with your own eyes.

Not to go off on a tangent, but a player that comes to mind for me is Penny Hardaway. If you weren't alive to see him you simply wouldn't know how great he was because his stats don't reflect that of a dominant individual player. But if you actually watched him play you just know. He led but he led from behind, and if you ask me he truly was one of the best players I've ever seen play.

But you would never know that looking at his stats.

[Phoenix]

Great post.

Yeah, Garnett’s uniquely distributed skillset make him a hard one to really pin down. Most fans are first-option-scoring-biased and Garnett’s one of the few post-Russell greats that could’ve spearheaded a dynastic team without really great scoring. The only problem is that, fair or not, he didn’t actually prove it. So even though I can easily imagine a world where, for instance, a Wolves-bound Kobe and Lakers-bound Garnett end up swapping title counts, Kobe’s real-life contributions on 5 title-winning teams temper these considerations.

That said, I too like me some hypotheticals, so:

Definitely agree that Garnett wouldn’t go 5/5 if his corresponding versions were superimposed on to each of those title-winning teams, but that’s somewhat luck-based (as you kind of touch on in later posts). I don’t think one could reasonably expect even Duncan to replicate all 5 wins each time, if do-overs were forced — if you reset the deck then even seasons like ‘03 are in question, since both C-Webb and Dirk were felled by injury that year.

Imo a Garnett-led Spurs team would have strong chances in all 5 years (he was basically washed in ‘14, but I imagine Duncan might’ve been too by then, if he assumed KG’s workload in Minny) but probably win 2 or 3 of those, as you say. 4 is possible, but probably a 90th-95th percentile outcome, or thereabouts.

However, who’s to say he couldn’t earn some ground back in the remaining years, the ones where TD didn’t win? The Spurs had a vastly superior defensive supporting cast in ‘04, and this was KG’s best year. Likewise the ‘10-‘11 Spurs probably would’ve fared better with KG that year, all else remaining the same. TD was terrible against the Grizz and had his worst regular season up to that point.

So, we diverge on some of the particulars but seem to be aligned on their general standing as players.

Yes, I would say that's true for all these outcomes. They happened as they happened but replaying them doesn't necessarily mean the same outcomes as you said. We've seen too many titles over the years decided literally by a bounce here and there, a timely play, an untimely call. These things operate on a fine edge in many cases. It's funny that you mentioned the 2004 team because my mind did briefly ponder what would happen if KG was with the Spurs instead of Duncan. Does KG take out the Lakers with that 2004 Spurs cast, and then what does he do against that Pistons squad, without looking at stats I wager the peak of those early-mid 2000's Detroit teams?

What's your thoughts on Dirk? He was the least versatile of the top 3 PFs of the era with the aforementioned two, but arguably the best offensive anchor. Dirk needed interior defense, wing defenders and rebounding to supplement what he did well. I'm curious as to how he fares with those 99 and 03 Spurs teams with an end of prime/past prime Admiral and the respective rosters. Of course all of these scenarios depend on which version/year of these guys we're referring to. But circumstances most certainly have nearly infinite 'what-if' scenarios with how the title picture can shake out if you swap guys at this level around.

[LAL]

Good thread btw, sparked some nice discussion. Kobe is and probably always will be a polarizing player. He is a poster-boy (for better and worse) of two separate schools of thought/types of fans. Even just my own opinion about him as a basketball player has swung wildly — as a kid I regularly watched him play foil to my Kings, and held him in the highest esteem as a result. As time wore on I could no longer entertain the idea of him holding off LeBron in the all-time rankings, much as I tried (believe it or not, I was a huge LeBron hater right up to my late teens).

Now, well, I still think he’s nowhere near LeBron (lol), but nonetheless believe the analytics-adjacent folks actually underrate him. I recently heard the Wages of Wins folks claim he isn’t a Top 25 player OAT and had to do a double and triple-take. The less poindexter-y ones like Taylor can see the forest for the trees (his characterization of Kobe’s “inelastic offence” persuasively argues that he received too much flak for his supposed “inefficiency”)…but they’re not always the norm. Kobe had a very balanced floor game with a lot hidden strengths (turnover economy, sneaky-great court vision, good rebounding for a guard) and also authored a handful of high-quality defensive seasons. If his offensive and defensive peaks overlapped, I’d have him in my Top 8. If he actually earned *all* of those All-D selections, he’s pushing Top 5…but we know he didn’t. Currently, these are the guys I rank ahead:

Jordan
LBJ
KAJ
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Wilt

He is in the next cluster of players, roughly interchangeable with West, Big O and Curry.

So, he’s somewhere in the 11-14 slots.

Sidenote but, if there’s one player I really waffle on, it’s KG. No one without an agenda can look at the rosters and situations surrounding him in his first 12 years (iow, most of his prime) and argue he should’ve eked a title. He was flanked with a terrible supporting cast (aside from perhaps ‘04) and one of the worst owners in league history. I still think he was a tier below Duncan, but is it entirely coincidental that once their supporting casts were basically equalized, so too was their output and effect on winning (well, more or less)? No one had a more wasted prime. If I had a bit more conviction I’d probably lump him in with Kobe. But I don’t, so I won’t. Ergo, 11-14.

Cool story bro, thx.

[Da_Realist]

Having said that, Kobe is tough to rank for me. Since I consider peak play the most, I have Wade above him. I'm open to changing that, but it is what it is. My lists are always a mess and constantly changing.


Interesting... Reading through laughing at some of these comments but this one definitely caught me off guard. Peak for peak? I'm leaning toward Kobe. Kobe could do more things while Wade was more relentless putting pressure on the defense. I need to think about this one.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Interesting... Reading through laughing at some of these comments but this one definitely caught me off guard. Peak for peak? I'm leaning toward Kobe. Kobe could do more things while Wade was more relentless putting pressure on the defense. I need to think about this one.

Yep, kinda with Hoops on this one.

Peak Wade is right there with Kobe AND Lebron, just as I said earlier in the thread. Would argue a slightly more impactful player than Kobe, because of how he performed vs elite defenses.

Peak/Prime Wade was playing with pretty mediocre rosters in 2009 and 2010. Never detered him from obliterating the league though. I remember during that entire 2010 season, Wade solo dolo'd the "super team" Celtics lol. Not sure he had one bad game vs them. And when seeing them in the playoffs, Wade put up 33/7/6/2/2...on 56% FG and 40% from three. Dude was a monster.

[kawhileonard2]

Most have Kobe over Lebron because he won with the franchise he played for more so and didn't go and stack the deck. Also didn't win bronze medals.

[AlphaWolf24]

Good to see Kobe still at the top of ISH forums….still


Always overthinking rankings…..

MJ

Kobe

Magic


Bird/Bron


It really is that simple……

[kawhileonard2]

Good to see Kobe still at the top of ISH forums….still


Always overthinking rankings…..

MJ

Kobe

Magic


Bird/Bron


It really is that simple……

Agreed! With Kawhi ahead of Lebron.

[SATAN]

Good to see Kobe still at the top of ISH forums….still


Always overthinking rankings…..

MJ

Kobe

Magic


Bird/Bron


It really is that simple……

Says the retard

[AlphaWolf24]

Says the retard

Wow ……what is this 2010?…….that word is canceled.


BTW is ISH still saying ETHERED?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Yes, I would say that's true for all these outcomes. They happened as they happened but replaying them doesn't necessarily mean the same outcomes as you said. We've seen too many titles over the years decided literally by a bounce here and there, a timely play, an untimely call. These things operate on a fine edge in many cases. It's funny that you mentioned the 2004 team because my mind did briefly ponder what would happen if KG was with the Spurs instead of Duncan. Does KG take out the Lakers with that 2004 Spurs cast, and then what does he do against that Pistons squad, without looking at stats I wager the peak of those early-mid 2000's Detroit teams?

What's your thoughts on Dirk? He was the least versatile of the top 3 PFs of the era with the aforementioned two, but arguably the best offensive anchor. Dirk needed interior defense, wing defenders and rebounding to supplement what he did well. I'm curious as to how he fares with those 99 and 03 Spurs teams with an end of prime/past prime Admiral and the respective rosters. Of course all of these scenarios depend on which version/year of these guys we're referring to. But circumstances most certainly have nearly infinite 'what-if' scenarios with how the title picture can shake out if you swap guys at this level around.


Love him and always felt his pre-‘11 playoff failures were given too much airtime. I give Dirk (and to an extent Nash) a bit of a pass for amassing only one finals berth from ‘00-‘07. Conference imbalance was at an all-time high and only one 60+ win juggernaut could make it out of the West each year.

The one year he made it he put up 28/12/3 49/40/90 against the #2/#1/#16 defences which included one of the best ever Game 7 performances. I know he blew chunks for a large part of the finals (his team was hosed tbf), but that doesn’t override his carry-job before then. He was also excellent in ‘03 before the injury.

You’re spot-on about his ability as an offensive anchor, the Mavs were a yearly offensive powerful and he has some of the best offensive on-offs ever.

My first reaction was to be skeptical of Dirk’s impact in lieu of TD on that ‘99 squad but their path to the title didn’t seem particularly daunting to me. The Lakers were a mess that year, Blazers were a paper tiger and Admiral’s versatility would be enough to counteract much of Dirk’s defensive shortcomings.

Wouldn’t be till bullish about him getting the job done in ‘03 with a diminished Robinson. Even though he’s the superior offensive player generally, Duncan played out of his skin in ‘03 and a Prime Dirk wouldn’t be a shoo-in to match even just his offensive output. All-time carryjob.

[dankok8]

Interesting discussion here.

KG is a weird player to evaluate because as was said, he was simply dealt a shit sandwich for the first 12 years of his career. He could not be reasonably expected to win a ring with Minnesota. Not when the front office was incompetent and competing with absolute juggernauts in the 2000's Western Conference.

With that said, I do see Duncan as a superior player. His offensive style as in playing through him in the post was just better than playing through KG. Duncan put more pressure on the defense, drew more fouls, and could get his team those key buckets in key moments. KG couldn't... As was said, the 2003 title run by Duncan is one of the most impressive in history. I just don't see KG ever replicating that. All other Spurs titles, I could see KG winning them as well even though I would say KG wins about 2-3 titles in place of Duncan in a hypothetical scenario where he was drafted by the Spurs and spent his whole career there. Conversely if Duncan was also on KG's teams, I think he wins nothing in Minnesota and maybe about 2 title in Boston and I think Duncan does make it out of the first round a couple of times before 2004.

[Phoenix]

Love him and always felt his pre-‘11 playoff failures were given too much airtime. I give Dirk (and to an extent Nash) a bit of a pass for amassing only one finals berth from ‘00-‘07. Conference imbalance was at an all-time high and only one 60+ win juggernaut could make it out of the West each year.

The one year he made it he put up 28/12/3 49/40/90 against the #2/#1/#16 defences which included one of the best ever Game 7 performances. I know he blew chunks for a large part of the finals (his team was hosed tbf), but that doesn’t override his carry-job before then. He was also excellent in ‘03 before the injury.

You’re spot-on about his ability as an offensive anchor, the Mavs were a yearly offensive powerful and he has some of the best offensive on-offs ever.

My first reaction was to be skeptical of Dirk’s impact in lieu of TD on that ‘99 squad but their path to the title didn’t seem particularly daunting to me. The Lakers were a mess that year, Blazers were a paper tiger and Admiral’s versatility would be enough to counteract much of Dirk’s defensive shortcomings.

Wouldn’t be till bullish about him getting the job done in ‘03 with a diminished Robinson. Even though he’s the superior offensive player generally, Duncan played out of his skin in ‘03 and a Prime Dirk wouldn’t be a shoo-in to match even just his offensive output. All-time carryjob.

Agree with all that, good post :cheers:

Alot of how playoff Dirk pre-2011 was perceived came off the back of that 2007 first round collapse against the Warriors (made worse by him winning the MVP that year), and many people act like this was the standard for him when he was 25/10/3 on 58% TS over his playoff career. Not too shabby for a so-called 'underperformer' prior to winning.

[Lebron23]

Top 15

[LAL]

Top 15

I'm rent free in your dumb midget mind. You're here everyday why does Kobe suddenly pop up in your mind?

Is this what it looks like when lebron and his minions about to get traded? I thought you loved the lakers?

[Lebron23]

I'm rent free in your dumb midget mind. You're here everyday why does Kobe suddenly pop up in your mind?

Is this what it looks like when lebron and his minions about to get traded? I thought you loved the lakers?

You are a homosexual

[LAL]

You are a homosexual

You did not deserve to be born in the Philippines, life is hard enough for you and you're making the best out of it. I respect that.

[Lebron23]

You did not deserve to be born in the Philippines, life is hard enough for you and you're making the best out of it. I respect that.

You black boyfriend Jerome have his dick inside your butt right now

[LAL]

You black boyfriend Jerome have his dick inside your butt right now

Philippines have a lot of transsexuals, are you one, seriously? You have the height of a woman. Almost respect the hustle but keep your jerome fantasies at home pls, this is a bball forum.

[Lebron23]

Philippines have a lot of transsexuals, are you one, seriously? You have the height of a woman. Almost respect the hustle but keep your jerome fantasies at home pls, this is a bball forum.

I am taller than you b1tch. I'll beat you in a basketball game, and in a fight