“Reasonable men may differ” or will you die on your hill?

[Kblaze8855]

I’m gonna ask you some simple questions based on a premise I will(as always) explain more thoroughly than necessary because you probably already understand what I’m asking.

To be clear, I don’t need your actual answer to these questions. I certainly expect to get some of them and I’m fine with that but I’m not directly asking for it. What I would like to know is your level of conviction in whatever that answer is.

Is it close enough that you can acknowledge a reasonable person could come to a different conclusion? Or do you feel it with such certainty you will not bend and will die on your hill defending it, even if you have to die alone?


So all I really need is that. The conviction level not necessarily the answer. So….



Bird vs Magic

Steph vs Magic

Lebron vs Kobe

Shaq vs Hakeem

Malone vs Barkley

Dirk vs KG

Duncan vs Shaq

Wade vs Durant

Nash vs Paul

Rose vs Westbrook

Dwight vs Yao

Jokic vs Kareem

Luka vs Tmac


Thats enough to start. Again…don’t need your answer if it’s too much to bother. Just your level of conviction. Maybe bold the ones you’d fight to the death about or something. Whatever’s easy for you.

[Kblaze8855]

I might only die on one hill there. Two tops.

Reasonable men may differ on almost all of those in my opinion. I feel like some of you will be pretty firm on more than that.

[warriorfan]

I’m gonna ask you some simple questions based on a premise I will(as always) explain more thoroughly than necessary because you probably already understand what I’m asking.

To be clear, I don’t need your actual answer to these questions. I certainly expect to get some of them and I’m fine with that but I’m not directly asking for it. What I would like to know is your level of conviction in whatever that answer is.

Is it close enough that you can acknowledge a reasonable person could come to a different conclusion? Or do you feel it with such certainty you will not bend and will die on your hill defending it, even if you have to die alone?


So I really need is that. The conviction level not necessarily the answer. So….



Bird vs Magic

Steph vs Magic

Lebron vs Kobe

Shaq vs Hakeem

Malone vs Barkley

Dirk vs KG

Duncan vs Shaq

Wade vs Durant

Nash vs Paul

Rose vs Westbrook

Dwight vs Yao

Jokic vs Kareem

Luka vs Tmac


Thats enough to start. Again…don’t need your answer if it’s too much to bother. Just your level of conviction. Maybe bold the ones you’d fight to the death about or something. Whatever’s easy for you.

Bird
Steph
Kobe
Hakeem
Malone
KG
Duncan
Wade
Paul
Westbrook
Dwight
Jokic someday maybe
Luka

Most of these could go either way, only two I would not accept is yao over dwight and maybe rose over westbrook just because rose’s career cut short. if rose never got injured it would be a good one

the jokic one is interesting, never thought of kareem vs him before, he needs to do it for more years. kareem got an edge in defense but jokic has the playmaking and total offensive edge. it’s kinda wild this is even a conversation but jokic has been playing at such an absurd level that it’s getting hard to ignore his knocks on the door

[ShawkFactory]

2 for me. Malone/Barkley and Dwight/Yao.

Those are the only ones where I'm certain. I fairly sure on many of the others.

[FultzNationRISE]

Dwight I think is pretty clear cut.

Lebron is the most clear cut, altho I try to avoid being too adamant in that comparison these days out of respect for the circumstance.

The rest I guess are pretty even.

[FKAri]

Barkley over Malone imo but I guess it's close.

Dwight/Yao is tricky. They both showed flashes of being much better than what the other ended up actually being. Both were reduced by injuries. But Dwight ended up healthier so he's the pick.

Nash/Paul. This should be Chris Paul even though I feel Nash deserved his MVPs.

[Kblaze8855]

Dwight having three of three responses firm in their convictions is surprising to me. Mostly because I was on here doing the Yao versus Dwight argument for a couple years and it felt pretty torn. I think it was partly the Chris Paul vs Deron thing where one guy wins the individual matchup and it skews perception about their standing league wide.

Yao supposedly owned Dwight for a while though I have no idea what the numbers were to back that up. I was on the Dwight side at the time.

[FultzNationRISE]

Dwight having three of three responses firm in their convictions is surprising to me. Mostly because I was on here doing the Yao versus Dwight argument for a couple years and it felt pretty torn. I think it was partly the Chris Paul vs Deron thing where one guy wins the individual matchup and it skews perception about their standing league wide.

Yao supposedly owned Dwight for a while though I have no idea what the numbers were to back that up. I was on the Dwight side at the time.


I think we're all bias in these convos toward looking at the game as it's played today, which is already pretty significantly different than when those two were going head to head.

Dwight would basically be Giannis today. Yao might be closer to Boban at this pace.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t think we credit Giannis enough with his desire to dominate games. He wants to score. Nobody has to tell him to go get involved. He doesn’t let it come to him. He goes and gets it like Shaq used to. Dwight had too much chill to be Giannis even if he had the physical talent to do it. Giannis is in “Get me the ball and get the **** outta the way” mode every game for years. Dwight would only show flashes and piss you off because you knew he could do it all the time.

”Wanting it” is an under appreciated trait in a superstar. Giannis is near the league leader in wanting the burden of stardom and to put his mark on every game.

Imagine if Vince Carter had that in him? Rasheed Wallace?

Giannis knows he can’t shoot free throws but he’s gonna go directly into your chest 35 times anyway. Shoot that air all and want the ball again. He doesn’t run from it like mentally weak players do when they’re afraid to get fouled because they know they’ll miss. No Kwame or Nick Anderson in him.

It might be almost as key to his greatness as his athletic ability. Not quite. But it’s key. Dwight needed a little more of it.

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron/Kobe is not an actual debate


Only brainfried morons take Kobe. You wont see anyone considered a reasonable person take Kobe.

[fsvr54]

I'm dying on my hill on Magic over Steph and Kobe over Lebron.

The poster above me must lack brain cells.

[elementally morale]

I tried but gave up. Even the ones I feel are not close (Magic vs. Steph for example) I can come up with counterarguments. What I can do instead is telling you which player I'd rather have. But defending it to the end with certainty I can't do. Are we talking about peaks here?

[Kblaze8855]

I tried but gave up. Even the ones I feel are not close (Magic vs. Steph for example) I can come up with counterarguments. What I can do instead is telling you which player I'd rather have. But defending it to the end with certainty I can't do. Are we talking about peaks here?


Peak or at least general prime. I just don’t see the point in talking about somebody like Tracy, McGrady, and considering the guy who was on the Knicks at the end. Same name different player.

[FKAri]

Dwight having three of three responses firm in their convictions is surprising to me. Mostly because I was on here doing the Yao versus Dwight argument for a couple years and it felt pretty torn. I think it was partly the Chris Paul vs Deron thing where one guy wins the individual matchup and it skews perception about their standing league wide.

Yao supposedly owned Dwight for a while though I have no idea what the numbers were to back that up. I was on the Dwight side at the time.

Because for a while Yao and Dwight were close and then in the first half of a season Yao was better than him. But Yao then went down and never really recovered. Dwight got better the next year and then sustained that level of play for a 3 year stretch.

[Overdrive]

I"ll die on Dirk's hill. Every excuse that gets made for Garnett in Minny Dirk overcame it. The only valid point is defense, but honestly how much defense is needed by a singular player when you simply almost never can overtake games?

Dwight is pretty obvious, but I could accept what ifs for Yao. The rest? There's alot of points to be made both ways.

[FultzNationRISE]

I don’t think we credit Giannis enough with his desire to dominate games. He wants to score. Nobody has to tell him to go get involved. He doesn’t let it come to him. He goes and gets it like Shaq used to. Dwight had too much chill to be Giannis even if he had the physical talent to do it. Giannis is in “Get me the ball and get the **** outta the way” mode every game for years. Dwight would only show flashes and piss you off because you knew he could do it all the time.

”Wanting it” is an under appreciated trait in a superstar. Giannis is near the league leader in wanting the burden of stardom and to put his mark on every game.

Imagine if Vince Carter had that in him? Rasheed Wallace?

Giannis knows he can’t shoot free throws but he’s gonna go directly into your chest 35 times anyway. Shoot that air all and want the ball again. He doesn’t run from it like mentally weak players do when they’re afraid to get fouled because they know they’ll miss. No Kwame or Nick Anderson in him.

It might be almost as key to his greatness as his athletic ability. Not quite. But it’s key. Dwight needed a little more of it.


I know this sounds silly, but if you go by the clips of Dwight playing in Taiwan that's basically what he's doing. Handling the ball, taking threes, basically playing the way these wings play today.

I mean we know Dwight wanted to score in his day because he was always insisting on taking a good amount of shots even when people bemoaned his clunky style and said he should just focus on rebounding and defense.

Centers just werent allowed to play that way back then. Teams were still following conventional wisdom about staying in the post and all that. There really werent many point forwards back then besides Lebron, let alone point centers. I think if Dwight comes up in today's game he plays the Giannis role. Or at least something sort of between Giannis and Bam. Maybe not quite at the same level offensively, I think both those guy are more mature/intelligent humans than Dwight. But I think he would at least be a lesser version of that style. Or he might even be better overall, I personally think Dwight is actually a more fluid athlete than Giannis. Skill wise with a basketball in their hands theyre probably on the same level.

[Kblaze8855]

Coming off the finals run fully healthy and playing 82 games 35 minutes a game Dwight Howard took 10 shots a night. Good for 82nd in the league. Fourth on his own team. Of course, that number is drug down by the number of times he was fouledbut either way it’s incredibly obvious he was not being aggressive with his shots, nor was he demanding a lot of of them. he wanted his post Ups , but he didn’t demand many.

Nor did he do what Shaq suggested, which is make his own shots outside the offense by merely running the floor and getting deep position because he could outrun every big in the league. He was simply not aggressively looking for his shot. Dwight with Giannis desire to attack would’ve probably been a 30 a game scorer.

Scorers not being included in the game plan score by finding the extra shots outside the planned offense. He rarely even did that.

The guy just didn’t get after it like that and didn’t demand the ball.

[Wardell Curry]

Yao owned Dwight head to head. Dwight was better against the rest of the league. :confusedshrug:

[elementally morale]

I'd pay to see peak Steph vs. peak Magic. And the rest of those teams, too. A 1985 or 87 Laker team vs. a top form GSW one. That would be very entertaining.

[Jasper]

I don’t think we credit Giannis enough with his desire to dominate games. He wants to score. Nobody has to tell him to go get involved. He doesn’t let it come to him. He goes and gets it like Shaq used to. Dwight had too much chill to be Giannis even if he had the physical talent to do it. Giannis is in “Get me the ball and get the **** outta the way” mode every game for years. Dwight would only show flashes and piss you off because you knew he could do it all the time.

”Wanting it” is an under appreciated trait in a superstar. Giannis is near the league leader in wanting the burden of stardom and to put his mark on every game.

Imagine if Vince Carter had that in him? Rasheed Wallace?

Giannis knows he can’t shoot free throws but he’s gonna go directly into your chest 35 times anyway. Shoot that air all and want the ball again. He doesn’t run from it like mentally weak players do when they’re afraid to get fouled because they know they’ll miss. No Kwame or Nick Anderson in him.

It might be almost as key to his greatness as his athletic ability. Not quite. But it’s key. Dwight needed a little more of it.

Kblaze your best post of all time ... well done.

I will pick : Lebron better than Kobe

Kobe was 100% a selfish player and the ultimate ball hog.
If each and every player did what he did , I can guarantee records would be broke daily.
Lebron is the all around player , that Kobe wish would of taylored his game to , instead of scoring champ MJ.
Lebron has records Kobe can only dream about and that is why kobe is outside of my top 8 all time list , and bron is close to top 5.

[BarberSchool]

Bird vs Magic
Almost a tie.
But Bird.

Steph vs Magic
Steph.
Magic had highlight and great post up playmaking.
But Steph changed the game forever.

Lebron vs Kobe
Kobe is by far the more skilled more aesthetic player:
Bran achieved a little more with PEDs
Kobe.

Shaq vs Hakeem
Hakeem was better more skilled player
But Shaq was a brand.

Malone vs Barkley
Barkley all day.
Malone needed to be fed.

Dirk vs KG
Dirk.
KG a 7ft anorexic draymond.

Duncan vs Shaq
Shaq was more than a great ball player.
He was a brand Duncan could never be.
Duncan just sone perfect boring fundamental winner.

Wade vs Durant
Tough one.
Durant more talent.
Neither truly earned a ring.

Nash vs Paul
Nash all day.
Paul most overrated of all time cause outsized media presence.

Rose vs Westbrook
Neither.
Rose doper but glass.
Westbrick wack AF but trackstar.

Dwight vs Yao
Neither.
Yao stays broken
Dwight brain & stone hands can’t be fixed.

Jokic vs Kareem
Kareem plus social impact, but Jokic closing in fast.

Luka vs Tmac
Tmac higher potential ceiling.
Luka on actually doing more. Already at 24.



Barkley is the one I’d argue to the point of roasting the Malone advocate with some bogus showboating type disrespect. Treating them like a child. Pause.

Nash vs Paul almost as hard.

And Maybe the Dirk vs KG just cause KG is so MF overrated and Dirk lit him up in every playoff head to head, and most KG fans I run into are like KG, unstable rascist DL type Weirdos who beat their bird chest in ways everyone kinda half cringes at, but let’s slide.

I’d also get disrespectful and loud at any Bran advocate over Kobe, and would not and can not ever shut the fu@k up about Deca & Human Chorionic Gonadotropin and sh!t, until they tuck their MF tail and accept at least a defeat in the room... I never let a MF have their Bran parade in person. Especially if they even try to hint at a higher rank than Michael. Ever.

Also, I feel strongly about Shaq over Duncan, but I wouldn’t ever disrespect the Duncan argument/advocate.

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk lit him up in every playoff head to head




Go look into that. It’s one of those lies we hear so often we begin to accept it. We actually went shot by shot a while back and dirk barely scored on KG at all. The game he had 39 points? He had one layup in transition that KG was near and Garnett fouled him to send them to the Line for two free throws when he came over trying to block his shot as help.

Dirk scored 39 points without making a single shot on him. I believe the final count was eight total shots across three games.

You can go watch them. It’s the rare series with every single made shot on YouTube. You’d be surprised.

[tontoz]

Some of these comparisons are really just personal preference. Bird vs Magic, just depends on what you want really.

I am not a huge fan of comparing young guys to all time greats. I am a big fan of jokic but no way would I take him over Kareem. Kareem can fit well on any team and be a force on both ends. Jokic off the ball would not be nearly as effective and he needs good defenders around him

[FultzNationRISE]

Some of these comparisons are really just personal preference. Bird vs Magic, just depends on what you want really.

I am not a huge fan of comparing young guys to all time greats. I am a big fan of jokic but no way would I take him over Kareem. Kareem can fit well on any team and be a force on both ends. Jokic off the ball would not be nearly as effective and he needs good defenders around him

You think any one player can win games without having good defenders around them?

Yama is already one of the game's best shot blockers and his team is at the bottom of the standings.

The idea that a couple extra blocks per game is gonna completely change the competitive level of a team is really overblown. Teams need to play good team defense to be successful (which Joker does). An individual shot blocker is obviously in a vacuum better than having that same guy not be able to block shots. But it's not like... heavily changing the dynamic of which player youre gonna win more with. Any single player has to have other good defenders around him to compete in meaningful games.

[Kblaze8855]

All else being equal your big being Dwight or something like that on D as opposed to a normal center is a pretty significant difference. And even bigger in every error before this one. And as I always say, there is no more reason to use today’s era for an all time comparison, than to use 1970, 1946, or 2009.

Choosing the year just lets you rig the pick to your desired outcome…but no era is more valid to rank players by. The great majority of basketball history a guy who shuts down the lane was more valuable than he is now.

When people couldn’t or didn’t choose to shoot over it deleting the paint made all the difference.

[tontoz]

People forget how athletic Kareem uses to be. He wasnt just a shot blocker on D but he was great at that. I would argue that he would be able to defend on the perimeter better than most centers.

[Full Court]

I’m gonna ask you some simple questions based on a premise I will(as always) explain more thoroughly than necessary because you probably already understand what I’m asking.

To be clear, I don’t need your actual answer to these questions. I certainly expect to get some of them and I’m fine with that but I’m not directly asking for it. What I would like to know is your level of conviction in whatever that answer is.

Is it close enough that you can acknowledge a reasonable person could come to a different conclusion? Or do you feel it with such certainty you will not bend and will die on your hill defending it, even if you have to die alone?


So all I really need is that. The conviction level not necessarily the answer. So….



Bird vs Magic

Steph vs Magic

Lebron vs Kobe

Shaq vs Hakeem

Malone vs Barkley

Dirk vs KG

Duncan vs Shaq

Wade vs Durant

Nash vs Paul

Rose vs Westbrook

Dwight vs Yao

Jokic vs Kareem

Luka vs Tmac


Thats enough to start. Again…don’t need your answer if it’s too much to bother. Just your level of conviction. Maybe bold the ones you’d fight to the death about or something. Whatever’s easy for you.

Mots of these are toss-ups. The only two hills I'll die on here are Dwight vs. Yao and Jokic vs. Kareem.

Dwight is head and shoulders above Yao, and Jokic hasn't done nearly enough at this point in his career to be considered comparable to Kareem.

[ILLsmak]

I’m gonna ask you some simple questions based on a premise I will(as always) explain more thoroughly than necessary because you probably already understand what I’m asking.

To be clear, I don’t need your actual answer to these questions. I certainly expect to get some of them and I’m fine with that but I’m not directly asking for it. What I would like to know is your level of conviction in whatever that answer is.

Is it close enough that you can acknowledge a reasonable person could come to a different conclusion? Or do you feel it with such certainty you will not bend and will die on your hill defending it, even if you have to die alone?


So all I really need is that. The conviction level not necessarily the answer. So….



Bird vs Magic

Steph vs Magic

Lebron vs Kobe

Shaq vs Hakeem

Malone vs Barkley

Dirk vs KG

Duncan vs Shaq

Wade vs Durant

Nash vs Paul

Rose vs Westbrook

Dwight vs Yao

Jokic vs Kareem

Luka vs Tmac


Thats enough to start. Again…don’t need your answer if it’s too much to bother. Just your level of conviction. Maybe bold the ones you’d fight to the death about or something. Whatever’s easy for you.

Yeah, man, people who are intelligent rarely take a hard die on a hill stance. You mainly see that in net nerds. Uncultured net nerds, even.

Why would anyone's opinion upset you to the point that you would have to take it to them? That's the part I don't understand. If it's true, anyway, why does it matter if someone else agrees haha. Plus, if you have changed your opinion in life, you can understand what it's like. You'd be a hypocrite.

I just like to plant the seed. If I do really think something is true, or if it's just like wow I don't see it, I would be like... I can't believe you actually think that, but OK. Usually, I can see something where someone is coming from. There are def some non-trolls that it's just like ok bud.

-Smak

[fsvr54]

KG is better than Dirk. GOAT defensive anchor and just as good as a midrange shooter, despite what people may believe about Dirk's "superior shooting"...KG was automatic on the turnaround fade

[Chick Stern]

Bird
Steph
Kobe
Hakeem
Malone
KG
Duncan
Wade
Paul
Westbrook
Dwight
Jokic someday maybe
Luka

Most of these could go either way, only two I would not accept is yao over dwight and maybe rose over westbrook just because rose’s career cut short. if rose never got injured it would be a good one

the jokic one is interesting, never thought of kareem vs him before, he needs to do it for more years. kareem got an edge in defense but jokic has the playmaking and total offensive edge. it’s kinda wild this is even a conversation but jokic has been playing at such an absurd level that it’s getting hard to ignore his knocks on the door
Bird?!

[iamgine]

Lebron vs Kobe

Lebron vs Kobe eh?