Defense today vs other eras

[FKAri]

I wanted to see what the board's thoughts are on this since I've seen wildly different takes on here. The key thing that isn't talked about is how defenses aren't neutered today so much as offenses have been progressing much more rapidly than defenses since at least the early 80s. The idea that offenses are doing so well today is usually attributed to the league bending rules to favor the offense. This is a logical and convenient hypothesis that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. No rule this century has bolstered offense or neutered defense (except arguably 1 but I consider it more a clarification of existing rules) but there has been little evolution in defensive techniques. Whereas there's been mountains of progress on offensive schemes both as a team and in terms of 1 on 1 moves.

I know some will disagree with me so I'll wait for some posts before I go into the evidence.

Gilbert Arenas actually has some vids that discuss this. I'm in no position to argue with him on knowledge of the game but I think he's slightly too harsh on past eras(including his). I would push back with him on 1 thing. Hard fouls in the paint along with legit bigs were more common which acted as a small deterrent to quick guards who could slice up a defense and challenge bigs. This is why mid range was more common and more valuable back then. That's about it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEABN0PWiF8

Longer vid about hand checking and how it wouldn't alter the play of wings with ball handling and speed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-YQZL3jaMk

[dankok8]

Hand-checking absolutely alters the game of perimeter players. Gilbert is talking BS. My buddies and I tried playing pick up games with strict no hand-checking enforced i.e. every touch on the ball handler is a foul. Everyone gets to the rim easily and scores since we're all about the same height.

The modern game also benefits from fewer shotblocking bigs, the three second rule, higher pace and more spacing in general which spreads the defense thin. The only counterbalance to that is the legality of zone defenses.

[hiphopanonymous]

Gil is one of those guys that I think doesn't understand even what made his own self good at basketball. I've hooped with guys like this before. I try to break my own game down into its smallest pieces and parts and understand every nuance - and I can contextualize how those moves would change assuming someone threw different rules or coaching in front of me. Gil seems to gloss over rule changes over the years and/or fails to understand what they imply. He thinks all the new guys have all this unstoppable whatever. He's more bravado than he is brains when trying to dissect the game. That's what I think of him so far at least, having listened to him talk at length about these things in his podcasts. Some of the things he says when trying to compare eras are downright stupid.

[Gudo]

Hand-checking absolutely alters the game of perimeter players. Gilbert is talking BS. My buddies and I tried playing pick up games with strict no hand-checking enforced i.e. every touch on the ball handler is a foul. Everyone gets to the rim easily and scores since we're all about the same height.

The modern game also benefits from fewer shotblocking bigs, the three second rule, higher pace and more spacing in general which spreads the defense thin. The only counterbalance to that is the legality of zone defenses.

I played with a shorter guy one on one, who wasn't that good but we just didn't call anything unless it was really blatant. So that let us play with a lot of physicality. That just drains your stamina for outside shots.

[Xiao Yao You]

defensive players can't touch offensive players at all while offensive players can throw all parts of their body in to the defender to draw a foul on a helpless defender. Defenders have had to become better not because offensive players are that much better but because they literally are at a huge disadvantage and also have to guard a lot more space

[tpols]

Gilbert Arenas is retarded. He's literally the definition of a guy who went pro to play for money and not to win. Which is a lot of guys, but he's one of the ones at the top in that regard.

[ILLsmak]

Gil is one of those guys that I think doesn't understand even what made his own self good at basketball. I've hooped with guys like this before. I try to break my own game down into its smallest pieces and parts and understand every nuance - and I can contextualize how those moves would change assuming someone threw different rules or coaching in front of me. Gil seems to gloss over rule changes over the years and/or fails to understand what they imply. He thinks all the new guys have all this unstoppable whatever. He's more bravado than he is brains when trying to dissect the game. That's what I think of him so far at least, having listened to him talk at length about these things in his podcasts. Some of the things he says when trying to compare eras are downright stupid.

yea he was talking about how he'd just shoot over and bully Stockton cuz dude was tiny, and it's like ye ok haha.

Hand checking is huge. I mean, we all knew what was a legit hand check and what wasn't, even back then. There were dudes who played actual 'pushing' hand check defense, and to me, I thought that was a foul, but I didn't call it. I'd just play harder... but if you get a strong enough dude, you can't do anything. I played against some old guys when I was a teen, was like w/ my uncle and this dude just leaned on me all game and I couldn't do shit.

But even just being able to put your hand on someone to help mirror them and balance yourself is huge. Not being able to put your hands on people SUCKS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA71MNNZzIs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDjzjujVfFg

Still, surprised anyone who isn't a lil older hasn't played against "that guy" who legit is PUSHING you the whole time. It's like man GET THE **** OFF ME haha. But you don't wanna sound like a bitch. Who calls a hand check? Some guy called one on me as he was making his move. I admit I put more force into people as our bodies collide, but still bitchmade.

And watching dudes be able to play D with their feet without puttin their hands on people is amazing.

-Smak

[tpols]

yea he was talking about how he'd just shoot over and bully Stockton cuz dude was tiny, and it's like ye ok haha.

Hand checking is huge. I mean, we all knew what was a legit hand check and what wasn't, even back then. There were dudes who played actual 'pushing' hand check defense, and to me, I thought that was a foul, but I didn't call it. I'd just play harder... but if you get a strong enough dude, you can't do anything. I played against some old guys when I was a teen, was like w/ my uncle and this dude just leaned on me all game and I couldn't do shit.

But even just being able to put your hand on someone to help mirror them and balance yourself is huge. Not being able to put your hands on people SUCKS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA71MNNZzIs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDjzjujVfFg

Still, surprised anyone who isn't a lil older hasn't played against "that guy" who legit is PUSHING you the whole time. It's like man GET THE **** OFF ME haha. But you don't wanna sound like a bitch. Who calls a hand check? Some guy called one on me as he was making his move. I admit I put more force into people as our bodies collide, but still bitchmade.

And watching dudes be able to play D with their feet without puttin their hands on people is amazing.

-Smak

Yea I feel that. I remember playing pickup at rutgers gyms and there was this blonde football playing twins who kinda looked like Brock Lesnar but obviously way smaller and the way they'd cut your drive off by grabbing you made it so you pretty much had to shoot jumpers. And you don't want to be that bitch made dude in the pickup game calling fouls unless you get totally laid out.

[FKAri]

I agree that Gil goes too far but there is truth in what he's saying.


Hand-checking absolutely alters the game of perimeter players. Gilbert is talking BS. My buddies and I tried playing pick up games with strict no hand-checking enforced i.e. every touch on the ball handler is a foul. Everyone gets to the rim easily and scores since we're all about the same height.
I would've agreed with you on this just a couple years ago but I've come around to siding with Gil on this. It does alter but is not responsible for the bulk of the offensive changes over the decades. He clarifies in the 2nd video that he's referring to big athletic guards coming down hill who also have the handles to cross over in full stride. Guys like Grant Hill and Penny being at the forefront of this shift. But those were giants; basically forwards. You only need be slightly bigger than traditional PG size. As long as you had handles to match your speed. There's a tipping point where hand checking looses effectiveness.


The modern game also benefits from fewer shotblocking bigs, the three second rule, higher pace and more spacing in general which spreads the defense thin. The only counterbalance to that is the legality of zone defenses.
Higher pace is not based on a rule it is a tactic that is simply more effective than not running. Spacing is the result of better shooters which is again a lineup tactic that's proven effective. 3 second rule has been around forever so it has no effect on comparing eras(only if we're comparing with international play). Fewer shot blocking bigs exist because a quick footed pick and roll defender has been deemed more effective than a slower but bigger rim protector.

[FKAri]

defensive players can't touch offensive players at all while offensive players can throw all parts of their body in to the defender to draw a foul on a helpless defender. Defenders have had to become better not because offensive players are that much better but because they literally are at a huge disadvantage and also have to guard a lot more space
Agreed but this was always the case. If anything there's less ways for an offensive player to throw their body at you now than before. The rip thru is no longer legal. Reggie Miller kicking his legs at the defender is no longer legal. One point the other way though: A defender can no longer be in your landing zone during a jump shot contest. And defenders have to guard more space because shooters are better and from further out.

[warriorfan]

Lol hand checking doesn’t matter? What the hell

Gilbert can be funny at times but he’s obviously a mentally ill dude serving hot takes

[Kblaze8855]

The defensive effort is higher than long ago and the players better trained physically but it’s more than offset by rules favoring offense and setting out to let them score more. So it depends how you look at it. Defense is harder but the defenders aren’t worse. Add the 3 pointers and they have a harder job than ever.

[paksat]

I agree that Gil goes too far but there is truth in what he's saying.


I would've agreed with you on this just a couple years ago but I've come around to siding with Gil on this. It does alter but is not responsible for the bulk of the offensive changes over the decades. He clarifies in the 2nd video that he's referring to big athletic guards coming down hill who also have the handles to cross over in full stride. Guys like Grant Hill and Penny being at the forefront of this shift. But those were giants; basically forwards. You only need be slightly bigger than traditional PG size. As long as you had handles to match your speed. There's a tipping point where hand checking looses effectiveness.


Higher pace is not based on a rule it is a tactic that is simply more effective than not running. Spacing is the result of better shooters which is again a lineup tactic that's proven effective. 3 second rule has been around forever so it has no effect on comparing eras(only if we're comparing with international play). Fewer shot blocking bigs exist because a quick footed pick and roll defender has been deemed more effective than a slower but bigger rim protector.

140 points in games, so effective much wow

[paksat]

The defensive effort is higher than long ago and the players better trained physically but it’s more than offset by rules favoring offense and setting out to let them score more. So it depends how you look at it. Defense is harder but the defenders aren’t worse. Add the 3 pointers and they have a harder job than ever.

I disagree with this point from a different perspective

you guys are saying it makes you a better defender, what it really does is make the offensive player not have to be as good. Did you guys think about it like that?

[FKAri]

The defensive effort is higher than long ago and the players better trained physically but it’s more than offset by rules favoring offense and setting out to let them score more. So it depends how you look at it. Defense is harder but the defenders aren’t worse. Add the 3 pointers and they have a harder job than ever.

I wouldn't say defensive effort is higher. Playing defense is more exhausting than ever before from a cardio stand point(but less bruises) which naturally results in players and teams modulating their effort more so than decades past. Also many plays broken down as a result of defensive pressure can still net a 3 pointer in today's NBA. That's a psychological killer of defensive intensity.

My argument is that rules aren't favoring offense as much as we think. How much "we think" is pretty vague and probably changes person to person but I just wanted to have a discussion on it.

[elementally morale]

The thing I dislike the most is the offensive player can throw a body part at you and it's a defensive foul if you are not standing still. I think it makes a bigger difference than hand checking. The is another rule that should be changed: goaltending after the shot hit the rim. It should be live ball.

I agree with the part about defense not having come up with new ideas the way offense has.

[Xiao Yao You]

The thing I dislike the most is the offensive player can throw a body part at you and it's a defensive foul if you are not standing still. I think it makes a bigger difference than hand checking. The is another rule that should be changed: goaltending after the shot hit the rim. It should be live ball.

I agree with the part about defense not having come up with new ideas the way offense has.

yeah the offensive player initiating the contact on a helpless defender is ridiculous. Offense has every advantage. More like a video game now

[ArbitraryWater]

People fuming at Gill


Bout time the lazy "no one plays defense anymore" takes get shut down


the only truly logical explanation is the talent increase, see:



https://i.gyazo.com/70ce540544eea7e620b6b218329fa312.png

[Duffy Pratt]

The restricted area where you can’t draw a charge hurts defenses. The defensive three second rule hurts defenses. The no hand checking rule hurts defenses.

And then there are the areas where the way the game is called (or better, not called) has an even bigger impact. The loosening of the interpretation of traveling. The almost complete ignoring of carrying. We marvel at what we call people’s “handles” now, but until pretty recently, all of this great handling would have been a violation. And these interpretations make it almost impossible to guard someone.

And then there is the stupid transition from a player drawing contact to a player deliberately initiating contact. All of the above goes on the side of defense simply being harder.

On the offense side, you basically have volume three point shooting with nearly everyone capable of making threes. This has a plus impact on the offense, and also has a negative impact on D, since teams can no longer afford to have a defensive specialist. I’m not sure, but I have my doubts about whether some one like Rodman or Ben Wallace could even play in today’s league.

[SATAN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbMe0WNm19s


“It started with Michael Jordan. The referees used to tell the younger referees that if Jordan goes to the hole and if there’s a crowd there then just blow the whistle. That’s what the refs are programmed to do.” - Tim Donaghy


"I'm going to divert here a little bit. It's what I used to tell the referees when they called a foul for Jordan, for Michael, and I didn't think it was. I would always say to them, 'He doesn't need your help. He's going to be OK without you.' You know what I mean? 'He's pretty good, he doesn't need you to give him any calls.'

"So I say the same thing about the offense right now in the NBA. We don't need to tilt any rules to the offense. Just keep it clean and see how good these guys are." - Joe Dumars


“Every time you were hitting him he was crying” Zeke said while mimicking MJ’s whining. “He was going to David Stern’s office, going to the commissioners office, having a meeting about getting hit, getting fouled, like ‘You gotta change the rules’,"

“I watched Dr J. get beat up, I watched Magic get beat up, I watched Max get beat up, I watched Bird get beat up, I got beat up, everybody get beat up. But wait a minute, now we got to change the rules cause of him?”- Isiah Thomas


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoWvPeT6NN0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WocVZ7wkEM

I rest my case...

[FKAri]

The restricted area where you can’t draw a charge hurts defenses. The defensive three second rule hurts defenses. The no hand checking rule hurts defenses.
Agreed. But restricted area is 97 and 3 in the key is 2000(or 01?). So it's been a while but it took time for offensive schemes to develop and rosters to be constructed to be able to best exploit the changes.


And then there are the areas where the way the game is called (or better, not called) has an even bigger impact. The loosening of the interpretation of traveling. The almost complete ignoring of carrying. We marvel at what we call people’s “handles” now, but until pretty recently, all of this great handling would have been a violation. And these interpretations make it almost impossible to guard someone.
I agree somewhat. It's made a big difference but it's largely a reaction to ball handling trends that have developed over time. There's no rule that finally made it so Tim Hardaway could do his crossover. He was just able to do it full speed in an era where most couldn't. Compare his crossover to Derrick Rose's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2qTvGjf7rg

It's an even greater momentum switch. No carries here either. Cleaner than AI and faster than Tim. All from a guy with more explosion than both. Nothing a 1 on 1 defender can do here but funnel you to a help defender.

So I did fast forward to DRose but I need to go back and mention AI. Yes, he carried. But barely. But this is where the NBA needed to draw a line in the sand and they didn't.
Because now you can't not allow TMac's hesi-hang dribble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q30jJzUSMI

You can't not allow the various reverse spin dribbles that used to be spin-jump stops. JCrawford's behind the back snatch? I think that's legal regardless(if done cleanly). All credit to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Tozd5Jc94


So you can see that it's kind of inevitable when you don't draw a line in the sand. So it's a mix of setting a precedent and advancements in technique. Every year they have a new "point of emphasis" in regards to travels and carries. Because the rules as written are just not well written.


And then there is the stupid transition from a player drawing contact to a player deliberately initiating contact. All of the above goes on the side of defense simply being harder.
This you could do for a long time as I mentioned earlier in this thread. And actual rules have been added to make it less of a thing but guys keep finding loop holes. With the exception of the landing zone rule change which benefits the offensive player.

[dankok8]

I agree that Gil goes too far but there is truth in what he's saying.


I would've agreed with you on this just a couple years ago but I've come around to siding with Gil on this. It does alter but is not responsible for the bulk of the offensive changes over the decades. He clarifies in the 2nd video that he's referring to big athletic guards coming down hill who also have the handles to cross over in full stride. Guys like Grant Hill and Penny being at the forefront of this shift. But those were giants; basically forwards. You only need be slightly bigger than traditional PG size. As long as you had handles to match your speed. There's a tipping point where hand checking looses effectiveness.


Higher pace is not based on a rule it is a tactic that is simply more effective than not running. Spacing is the result of better shooters which is again a lineup tactic that's proven effective. 3 second rule has been around forever so it has no effect on comparing eras(only if we're comparing with international play). Fewer shot blocking bigs exist because a quick footed pick and roll defender has been deemed more effective than a slower but bigger rim protector.

Whether changes are rules-based or tactical they still affect the game noticeably. The defensive 3 second violation was instituted before the 2001-02 season. Not allowing bigs to sit in the paint has changed the game a lot. Made finishing at the rim easier and made centers generally less effective as they couldn't conserve energy by just standing in the paint.

One rule change I forgot to mention that is complex but big in terms of impact is how dribbling is officiating. Today refs are way more lenient when it comes to travels. It helps the offensive player a lot when they can slide their pivot foot or take an extra step or even just palm and freeze the ball longer before a crossover.

Of course I will say that the differences are generally smaller than some people try to make them out to be. Arguing that a 20 ppg perimeter scorer in the 90's would average 30 ppg today is too much. But they would average say like 23 ppg on the same number of shots.

[FKAri]

{shitting on past eras}

That's not what this thread is about. We're not shitting on past eras. It's about advancements in offense outpacing advancements in defense. And that this mismatch isn't talked about nearly as much as rule changes despite it being a greater reason for increased scoring. The skill ceiling on the offensive end is and has always been higher than defense. It's why the saying goes, "Great O beats great D".

[warriorfan]

This is really about Gil doing his best SAS hot take impression to try to cater to a younger audience

Anyone who tries to tell you that the rule changes had nothing to do with how the game is played now is just not being truthful

Do yourself a favor and don’t swallow this bullshit whole

[FKAri]

This is really about Gil doing his best SAS hot take impression to try to cater to a younger audience

Anyone who tries to tell you that the rule changes had nothing to do with how the game is played now is just not being truthful

Do yourself a favor and don’t swallow this bullshit whole

I already said all that. Including Gil's hot takes. Point isn't rule change had nothing to do with it. Point is they didn't have everything to do with it.

[elementally morale]

Defensive 3 seconds is a really stupid rule. Why did they implement that? What purpose does it serve and which problems did it solve?

[Phoenix]

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/01/27/nba-defense-foul-rules-joe-ingles-mikal-bridges-aaron-gordon

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/10/30/18038802/nba-defense-offensive-boom

[NBAGOAT]

i mean i agree though i'm not super strong on it. lot of first page comments how handchecking killed offense in their pickup games, gilbert is talking about elite nba lvl ball handling from guys with size like OP said. we can argue otherwise vs gilbert but an average guy getting handchecked in a pickup game is different than steph curry dealing with handchecking.

Likely one step rule wise is enforcing illegal screens. the pnr is the modern nba game pretty much, you could neuter that play a bit. I also always thought handchecking was kinda mitigated when a guy has a big setting screens for him every play(obvious huge uptick in pick and roll compared to any previous era).

Maybe some coach will forgive out some new defensive scheme or talent goes down too. The complaints about nfl and how easy it was to put up passing numbers were kinda similar with a lot of people ignoring the improvement in schemes and talent. Now however, last 2 years offense and the passing numbers have been down. Defensive strategy has caught up. On the flip side golf had guys keep hitting it farther and farther with new technology and better training and all the tour could do was set new standards for the golf ball to lower distance.

[Thorpesaurous]

The outlawing of the handcheck has had a multiplying effect in my opinion. It has sped up the game even more dramatically than it's given credit for, because yes, it's been nearly impossible to stay in from of the smaller water bug type guards, which obviously sped things up, but in increasing the offensive value of those types of guys, the bigger stronger guards have been moved out of the league at a rate that I think wasn't expected, because not only has their defensive approach been shut down, but the things they did offensively have also lost value relative to the league. In addition to the hand check, the league also greatly tightened how it calls off ball movement contact. There was a time a defender to step into the lane of a cutter and was entitled to that position. Now that cutting lane is assumed to belong to the cutter. This also limited the effectiveness of larger, stronger defenders.

Someone also mentioned the decrease in shot blocking bigs. This is a direct result of the zone allowance, defensive three second. Prior to this, a big needed to be outside the lane, so to get over to contest a shot, some of the most athletic people in the world were required to do that job. With players allowed to hang out in the lane, smarter less athletic guys were able to make up the difference. That allowed rosters to include more skilled players because they could be taught to make up the difference in scheme.

Effort is up if it's measured strictly by movement, because it's the only allowable means to defend. Strength has been largely removed from the defensive repertoire. It's harder to measure, so I'm not sure effort can be really evaluated.

All these things combined is why I don't think the league is more athletic now. It's gotten smaller. And bigs in particular have lost a ton of athleticism, particularly on the fringes, because they just aren't required as much to have it as much.

I'm not sure entirely my preference. I miss the bigger guards. The more penetrate and drop than penetrate and kick game. But I do like the freedom defensively. I probably like my basketball close to my politics. As few restrictions as possible, and let the varying styles work themselves out.

[FKAri]

i mean i agree though i'm not super strong on it. lot of first page comments how handchecking killed offense in their pickup games, gilbert is talking about elite nba lvl ball handling from guys with size like OP said. we can argue otherwise vs gilbert but an average guy getting handchecked in a pickup game is different than steph curry dealing with handchecking.

Likely one step rule wise is enforcing illegal screens. the pnr is the modern nba game pretty much, you could neuter that play a bit. I also always thought handchecking was kinda mitigated when a guy has a big setting screens for him every play(obvious huge uptick in pick and roll compared to any previous era).

Maybe some coach will forgive out some new defensive scheme or talent goes down too. The complaints about nfl and how easy it was to put up passing numbers were kinda similar with a lot of people ignoring the improvement in schemes and talent. Now however, last 2 years offense and the passing numbers have been down. Defensive strategy has caught up. On the flip side golf had guys keep hitting it farther and farther with new technology and better training and all the tour could do was set new standards for the golf ball to lower distance.

I think the trouble with defensive schemes is that the ceiling is much lower than it is for offense. And we haven't seen much innovation on that end in decades. Only trends going in and out of fashion. Even on the individual level, if I have the ball in my hands I can keep finding new ways to move with it, shoot with it and manipulate it whereas a defender can only use his feet to stay in front of me and his hands to bother me. So as time goes on offense will naturally outpace defense even if rules remain unchanged.