Players training these days makes a tough job impossible officiating wise. [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 06:41 PM

More than ever we are in a time of specific move training instead of building your game naturally by just playing a lot of basketball. You can see every move every great player has, and look up the footwork and how to set it up. You have kids watching training videos of Kyrie Irving’s low gather move which you can chain into James Hardens two hand foul searching layup.

There are sites to show you 10 minute breakdowns on such things and trainers who will drill it into you.

A lot of these players aren’t drawing all these fouls and gliding to the basket for formerly illegal layups by chance. It’s not on the spot creating. It’s as drilled into them as the form on their jumper.

I’ve had several chances in recent years to watch some college practices and guys messing around and they are absolutely working on footwork combinations and drawing fouls.

Somewhere along the way, the obvious fact that shooting a bunch of free throws and getting other players in foul trouble was effective and something to be mastered, and not just something that happens naturally in the process of playing.

And along that time the nba was relaxing ball handling rules till they formally changed the traveling rules to acknowledge the murky/ambiguous “gather” step forever changing the travel count from 1-2-travel to 0-1-2-travel. That “zero” step opened the door for moves previously unacceptable once the players started to work on exploiting it. And it has filtered down through fiba and has even been accepted on lower levels as they emulate the nba even without formal changes. Now you’re called a hater who doesn’t know the rules to call a travel a travel when it isn’t in the nba or certain leagues…which makes it a travel. You can’t do a lot of nba moves outside the nba…except you can. Because letter of the law?

https://i.ibb.co/XZKYBpX/IMG-7437.gif

Fine in leagues that followed the nbas lead. So the kids think they can do it too.

How many times you think that guy had to work on getting that right? I bet you he wasn’t doing it while he played anywhere it was legal. But James harden did it on tv nightly.

The kids up through teens and young pros worked at it incessantly.

Forget the 3 giant euro steps which are now unstoppable. People watch YouTube and bring out exotic gathers and jump stops all the time:

https://i.ibb.co/xgW6PfH/IMG-7443.gif

Which is fine for the record. Perfectly legal.

A lot of it is. This Lebron spin is legal:

https://i.ibb.co/y8Grmcz/IMG-7441.gif

But it isn’t when he spins and hops on the same foot.

https://i.ibb.co/ft7ggm5/IMG-7440.gif

Have to switch feet. Sometimes he does sometimes he doesn’t. How hard is that to spot full speed?

with every one of these rule changes and slight adjustments in interpretation the NBA gave players an inch to remove the controversy surrounding things deemed illegal and they all went to the lab and figured out a way to take a mile so consistently it’s hard to call them for anything.

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 06:51 PM

This is me Four years ago, trying to come up with a comprehensive list of the skills I look for on offense and defense.

13. Free throw shooting. Simple concept...I will not go into it. I will note that I said free throw shooting and not drawing fouls. Drawing fouls id say generally comes from the skills above leaving a man out of position....getting to the basket and being in traffic....not flopping, ripping through, or jumping into someone trying to make the refs give you something. I admit its effective these days.

But I never have and never will look for that quality in a player far as judging them. To me its almost like respecting the ability to carry the ball just because its effective and the refs allow it. Sure....it works. Doesnt mean im seeking out players good at it. Game being called properly I dont think the current method of drawing fouls would even exist so I cant exactly rep it. Its barely even basketball to me.

but watching it develop?

at what point do we have to acknowledge that manipulation of the rules as they are written and knowing how to abuse them to help your team and hurt the opponent is a valid skill? No matter what you think players don’t just go out there and get 17 free throws because somebody decided they get them. they are actually doing something to make it happen.

they know they can basically kill you inside the circle. They know they can initiate contact if you are even in questionable legal guarding position. The tie is always going to go to the offense now. So you can be in reasonably good position and merely trying to contest the shot and have someone go through your chest, knowing they’re going to get the call, if you’re even hanging around the restricted area.

Guys have learned to go up two handed for layups, because there is more surface area for a player to accidentally bump on the way up. And with two hands, you can control it better after the bump and possibly finish it for the and one.

they have exploited every slight opening in the rules to get four steps going to the basket. They know how to do a three step spin legally, and how to do it illegally so nobody can see it full speed.

They know which foot to go off of going up to make the bump look most dramatic before you try to lay it up and get a foul.

They are Masterfully manipulating the game to ruin both our viewing experience, and the defense having a fair chance.

Is our being hesitant to give credit to such things emotion overcoming our common sense? Nobody is stupid enough to think it’s ineffective or that a player who wants to win should stop doing effective things.

But we bitch about it.

Are we asking players to be stupid because what’s effective is less entertaining? This is never going to stop. The kids are going to get better and better at it. Seven-year-olds are out there working on harden step backs, Kyrie gathers, and all manner of foul drawing techniques in the lane and precise footwork that would have been whistled every time if we tried it at their age.

My question to you….

If it makes them more effective, should we still ask them not to do it?

And if we aren’t willing to ask them not to do it how do we turn around and not give them credit for being good at it?

tpols

01-10-2024, 06:51 PM

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 07:06 PM

The main problem isn't traveling or else James Harden would have a handful of rings. It's that defenders aren't allowed to be physical at all while offensive players are rewarded for initiating contact with the sole purpose of getting to the line.

Thing is they aren’t traveling. Not mostly. The league has given incredible leeway for refs to determine what a gather is, so depending on how you land, you might take four steps. It opened the door and got people thinking About how to approach offense differently.

I’d say that change was the tipping point in a culture that was already leaning towards training and repetition instead of intuition.

There are thousands of people out there, teaching kids moves and approaches for maximum effectiveness and treating the manipulation of these new rules like a key tenant of the game.

so no, that particular change isn’t wholly responsible I just think it helped knock down the door to a whole new way of approaching how to score. I think it was the last step in the process started long ago.

These players are built for this now. They don’t just figure it out. It’s gonna be all of them soon.

That one change I would say, took us from traditional basketball training into bag culture.

A player is becoming the collection of moves he has mastered and can call on on command. Everyone needs to have a basic bag and they build off that.

If you can find a non-creepy way spend some time around young basketball players. The way they are learning to chain these previously illegal gathers into foul drawing layups is beautiful and disturbing. From what I can tell, even the crossover is taking a backseat. It’s all about hesis, the shot fake off the hesi(a double dribble half the time), and how to gather on the drive and get a layup or get fouled.

Its like an assembly line.

Trainers are churning out little Kyrie/Harden hybrid monsters. Go, watch some high-level middle school or high school kids play and see how consistently they know which hand to go to, and how to jump into you with the other hand to create contact and finish with the layup. They even make noises like they got hit when they do it.

It would be hilarious if it didn’t scare me for the future. These kids are nice as **** and absolute hoes at the same time.

It’s Bag culture. And getting to the basket in ways formerly deemed illegal and getting the call….are part of your bag.

highwhey

01-10-2024, 07:09 PM

that shit is a travel idc what the league says, they didn't invent basketball.

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 07:15 PM

Thing is they aren’t traveling. Not mostly. The league has given incredible leeway for refs to determine what a gather is, so depending on how you land, you might take four steps.

I can't get used to it. I see 4 steps all the time and con't get why that isn't a travel. It was hard enough for me to accept 3 steps but I'm doing kinda okay with them. But 4? I can't help myself because I don't even have to start counting, I just feel it's a travel.

So I need an advice: how can you get used to it? What are you telling yourself not to start yelling at your TV/monitor when you see it? (Which is like a 150 times each game, literally, with 3 steps and ant least 10 a game with 4 steps.)

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 07:17 PM

that shit is a travel idc what the league says, they didn't invent basketball.

Yeah, but the guy who did said you couldn’t dribble. The rules of the game are whatever the people playing it agree they are before the game starts.

I wish you were old enough to remember when the three-pointer wasn’t universal. When it first started getting popular and I was a kid people would take what they called a three when there wasn’t even a line there and want the extra point.

You would have to specify even on a court that had some kind of line if you were playing threes or not.

The game just changes. It’s always annoying in the transition but we agree eventually.

Sucks but…I think fans will come to accept these things. If they haven’t already.

highwhey

01-10-2024, 07:39 PM

Yeah, but the guy who did said you couldn’t dribble. The rules of the game are whatever the people playing it agree they are before the game starts.

I wish you were old enough to remember when the three-pointer wasn’t universal. When it first started getting popular and I was a kid people would take what they called a three when there wasn’t even a line there and want the extra point.

You would have to specify even on a court that had some kind of line if you were playing threes or not.

The game just changes. It’s always annoying in the transition but we agree eventually.

Sucks but…I think fans will come to accept these things. If they haven’t already.

i've played enough pickup to understand we agree on rules beforehand. i've played plenty of pickup games where everyone agrees on no 3s.

what we've never negotiated on is allowing 4 steps...that's some nerd sh1t that has no place in the game. harden would still be a really good offensive player without his traveling, it's unnecessary and cheap. my opinion won't change cold hard facts...that a billion dollar organization will continue these bs rules, so whatever, but i will remain of the opinion that these are silly rules and it's a travel.

ILLsmak

01-10-2024, 07:58 PM

So ded at all of these post gather moves. The worst one is the pump fake then step thru. It's like wat?

Bball is trash now. It's not like they need to do those things, too, which is the weird part. It even LOOKS bad.

Edit: I fux w/ four steps way more than I do with people picking up their pivot foot. That's sickening. Four steps is whatever. You see it, but it's like wow ok. When people complete go into a jump stop and are still then take more steps and everyone is OK with it, it just makes me shake my head.

-Smak

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 08:07 PM

I can't get used to it. I see 4 steps all the time and con't get why that isn't a travel. It was hard enough for me to accept 3 steps but I'm doing kinda okay with them. But 4? I can't help myself because I don't even have to start counting, I just feel it's a travel.

So I need an advice: how can you get used to it? What are you telling yourself not to start yelling at your TV/monitor when you see it? (Which is like a 150 times each game, literally, with 3 steps and ant least 10 a game with 4 steps.)

Im the same way far as seeing it. I can’t “unsee” it but I’ve tried to tell myself that if it’s written a way it wasn’t used to I can’t judge it by old standards. It’s easier to say than to do for a lot of this stuff. But it’s the only way to rationalize it. How can I judge a kid born in 2006 for using moves learned in 2022 because in 1992 it’s illegal?

The only thing that gives me pause with that take is that it’s usually still illegal where the kid plays but that’s a whole other issue. The nba basically sets national rules even if informally. Be nice if they didn’t but you aren’t gonna have a kid wait till he’s in fiba play or the nba to develop his “bag” so what can you do?

Cant tell him to lag behind his peers can you?

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 08:09 PM

i've played enough pickup to understand we agree on rules beforehand. i've played plenty of pickup games where everyone agrees on no 3s.

what we've never negotiated on is allowing 4 steps...that's some nerd sh1t that has no place in the game. harden would still be a really good offensive player without his traveling, it's unnecessary and cheap. my opinion won't change cold hard facts...that a billion dollar organization will continue these bs rules, so whatever, but i will remain of the opinion that these are silly rules and it's a travel.

Way they see it….it isn’t 4 steps. They just manipulated the end of their dribble to take 2 as they stopped dribbling.

Just semantics but semantics win when the ref is told to call it that way.

SATAN

01-10-2024, 08:15 PM

Xiao Yao You

01-10-2024, 08:17 PM

It all started with MJ...

Dominique and Hakeem. Dominique was especially tough to watch hop all over the floor

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 08:51 PM

Cant tell him to lag behind his peers can you?

Sure. I fully understand the players. I'm just an old fart at in this regard this point and it's challenging to accept. As I was playing by far the most basketball in the 80s and 90s I was out of fashion basketball wise even at around 2010 when people my age were still NBA players on the tail end of their careers. Shaq is almost the same age a little bit older. Barkley is clearly older than me. How do these guys keep up with all the changes? They are doing a decent job not mentioning it all the time on TV but do we know how they really feel? (I guess some of you have a lot more information on this as I usually use League Pass and do only alittle reading here and there.)

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 10:12 PM

far as what the old generation genuinely thinks, I think they are aligned with you and where I was years ago when I made this video when the new way was really coming into prominence

https://youtu.be/h68lIm3LcaM?si=srXzWoMI14fY2msa

That is Derek Fisher, TMAC, Reggie, Chris Webber, Steve Kerr, Greg Anthony, and some others all explaining the way harden manipulates the game and the referees. I standby everything I put in there and the criticism of it. But it’s becoming so widespread. You can see one of the first prominent four step gathers in there. Dude straight up did a double stepback.

I told people years ago, Harden was the blueprint upon which the next couple generations of scorers would be built. Right now I would say it’s a harden Kyrie hybrid most of the kids seem to be shooting for.

Hardens approach…finding ways the refs can manipulate the game for you? It spread across the land.

People are melding that approach with all new moves never before possible with the new interpretations.

Players are always going to play on the edge of what you allow. And when there are legitimate ways you can now take three steps everybody’s going to take three and the bold will find a way to get that extra one in there.

It’s just the starting point from where I believe the whole approach changed. As I said, the introduction of these things is what I believe Led to “bag” culture and that’s where we remain.

Trainers the world over push the limits on what can be done and people watch the clips and high-level players personally work with the trainers to add the moves to their repertoire, and it all becomes normalized.

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 10:28 PM

Thanks for the video. I didn't see it at the time you created it.

I have to assume the League does it because (they think) their viewers will like it (and they do?) So being a fan nowadays, let's say you are in your mid 20s or one of those middle aged casuals. I don't know many people personally in that age group that follow the NBA and being in Hungary I certainly don't know any casuals. What I'd like to know is if they actually like what they see. I personally hate watching the foul bating game. When you go up and at least try hitting the shot I can live with it but many times it's not even a basketball play. So... do people like this kind of officiating? Because the game is just slowed down and you don't really know what happened most of the time. I like games where the refs 'let them play'. Am I in the minority? If yes, why do you think that is?

Xiao Yao You

01-10-2024, 10:30 PM

Thanks for the video. I didn't see it at the time you created it.

I have to assume the League does it because (they think) their viewres will like it (and they do?) So being a fan nowadays, let's say you are in your mid 20s or middle aged casuals. I don't know many people personally in that age group that follows the NBA and being in Hungary I certainly don't know any casuals. What I'd like to know is if they actually like what they see. I personally hate watching the foul bating game. When you go up and at least try hitting the shot I can live with it but many times it's not even a basketball play. So... do people like this kind of officiating? Because the game is just slowed down and you don't really know what happened most of the time. I like games where the refs 'let them play'. Am I int the minority? If yes, why do you think that is?

you probably like it if you grew up playing like that. I grew up playing a different game so it's tough to swallow

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 10:40 PM

you probably like it if you grew up playing like that. I grew up playing a different game so it's tough to swallow

Yet, the officials tend to swallow their whistles at the end of games, especially in the playoffs. At least relative to the 1st half of a regular season game the officiating is clearly different deep in the playoffs at the end of games. And people enjoy the latter more. I'm a bit confused as to why you'd accept a different version of reffing.

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 11:00 PM

One big disconnect is the NBA’s target audience going forward doesn’t consume its games the way we did. They don’t sit down and watch games. They just want immediate access to highlights. I have younger cousins who are good high school players and go play regularly. A couple who played in college. I have young friends of the family who were invited to high-level camps. One of them was in a camp hosted by Chris Paul. I’m around a good number of younger players and not a one of them sit down and watch basketball games as far as I can tell. They just absorb content throughout the day on their phones. Kid who a big fan of Kyrie but you can’t get them to sit still to watch a full basketball game even if Kyrie is in it.

This is why the NBA is leaning so heavily towards streaming and digital media. Trying to find a way to close the gap as traditional cable network TV is ending. It’s all about what you can stream to your device on the go.

I don’t think they’re running focus groups to see if 22-year-olds like the style of basketball played in the NBA because they aren’t banking on that generation sitting down to watch entire games. They want online impressions and social media followings.

The traditional revenue they depended on is dying with us. They are in favor of anything producing more viral content. They would take a harden step back where somebody falls, and he stares down at them before making a three and dancing off before they take harden playing what traditional fans would consider a great all-around fundamental game.

The great fundamental game isn’t going to get any digital impressions. Over time they can get hundreds of millions off one incredible highlight.

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 11:08 PM

This is what the nba cares about now. What they brag about:

NEW YORK — Driven by its multi-platform digital strategy, the NBA finished the 2022-23 regular season with record-breaking engagement across the NBA App, NBA League Pass and NBA social media accounts. Notably, @NBA on Instagram generated more than 13 billion video views this season, the most of any account on the platform. The league also amassed a record 32 billion video views across all NBA and NBA-related social media accounts, up more than 10% year-over-year, spurred by growth among young and international followers.
Additional consumption highlights from NBA social media, the NBA App and NBA League Pass include:
NBA Social Media
@NBA generated a record 18 billion views across social media platforms this season, the most among all sports leagues. The growth was led by the addition of 14 million new followers, largely from outside the U.S. International followers make up more than 70% of the NBA’s social media following, with 50 percent of the total audience comprised of people age 25 or younger. NBA social media milestones this season include:
YouTube: The NBA’s YouTube channel became the first professional sports league account to surpass 20 million subscribers and 12 billion lifetime video views on the platform. Every 90 days, the NBA reached more than 75 million unique viewers on YouTube who, on average, watched more than 35 minutes of content on the channel.
Instagram: With 78 million Instagram followers, the NBA is the 8th most-followed brand on the platform.
Five of the 10 most-viewed players on NBA social this season are age 26 or younger. The top 10 also includes five international players:
1. LeBron James (Los Angeles Lakers; U.S.): 1.3 billion
2. Stephen Curry (Golden State Warriors; U.S.): 881 million
3. Luka Dončić (Dallas Mavericks; Slovenia): 736 million
4. Ja Morant (Memphis Grizzlies; U.S.): 653 million
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo (Milwaukee Bucks; Greece; ties to Nigeria): 522 million
6. Jayson Tatum (Boston Celtics; U.S.): 496 million
7. Kyrie Irving (Dallas Mavericks; Australia): 374 million
8. Victor Wembanyama (2023 Draft prospect; France): 350 million
9. Jordan Poole (Golden State Warriors; U.S.): 293 million
10. Nikola Jokić (Denver Nuggets; Serbia): 253 million
With a global fanbase that includes top celebrities from around the world, the NBA’s announcement naming South Korean rapper, songwriter, producer and BTS star SUGA an NBA Ambassador generated the second-most liked NBA Instagram post (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.instagram.com/p/CqrqD_ogJbc/?hl=en__;!!AQdq3sQhfUj4q8uUguY!jDVJGO6ak24uKuPInYN IT9SnBZBhE_xEbmmaebnE1R88fRfCgib3nYeZA3M6Te5qM08PL jTEjYGwzf8$) (4.6 million likes) and second-most retweeted NBA tweet (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/twitter.com/NBA/status/1643841122689597442__;!!AQdq3sQhfUj4q8uUguY!jDVJGO 6ak24uKuPInYNIT9SnBZBhE_xEbmmaebnE1R88fRfCgib3nYeZ A3M6Te5qM08PLjTEZ3bj3E4$) (118K retweets) of all time.

The NBA gets the most views on all of Instagram.

Lebron videos got 3 billion.

Thats the game now.

They don’t need anyone to love the playstyle as a whole. The only people old enough to remember a different one are aging out of the target audience. They need to foster an environment for the most Instagrammable plays per game.

How we feel about it is a distant second.

They’re trying to build 50 years of loyalty from fans who barely have the attention span to watch a full game.

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 11:09 PM

Where does the more and more insane amount of money come from if people don't watch games on TV or via pay per view streaming like League Pass? The story you are telling is very interesting, really. How does money find its way to the NBA if I only watch 5 mins on youtube or 20 second on tiktok?

Xiao Yao You

01-10-2024, 11:10 PM

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 11:12 PM

They don’t need anyone to love the playstyle as a whole. The only people old enough to remember a different one are aging out of the target audience. They need to foster an environment for the most Instagrammable plays per game.

If so, why bother changing the officiating? I guess it results in more highlights if defenses are non-existent but it also results in less as everything is a foul.

It was news to me people aren't watching games. I have to believe it though.

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 11:13 PM

tv contracts. Now even more bidding for streaming rights

If the viewers don't watch why is a TV station paying for the rights? If you are not watching you are not seeing the ads either. I know, I'm a dummy.

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 11:19 PM

The money comes From live sports Being the final loadbearing wall of live TV, and the most important pillar all these gigantic entities want to show their streaming service has. You don’t need to watch the games. You need to pay for the service that has the right to show them. Once you do that the NBA and all the other media on those services have justified their existence. Streaming companies don’t need you to watch content. They need you to activate and never cancel your subscription. The NBA doesn’t get ad dollars when ESPN gets great ratings and can charge more for commercial time. In fact, when the NBA has great ratings, they have to pay ESPN more for their own commercial time.

Until there is a shift in society and Americans are willing to watch sports on their own time after they air? The big sports leagues will demand billions of dollars. streaming services and cable packages simply can’t survive without the subscribers who won’t buy it without live sports. The best NFL game of this coming playoff weekend is streaming exclusively on Peacock. People are pissed off because NBC has the rights to it and can put it free on the air. But NBC is banking on enough people signing up and forgetting to cancel they can start closing the gap and break even.

peacock lost a tremendous amount of money because there isn’t enough exclusive content on it. If certainly it were the only place to see the marquee Sunday night football games? If God forbid, they paid enough money to put the Super Bowl on Peacock?

Yes, they would be the sports fan equivalent of riots in the street but so many people would sign up even while pissed off they could completely turn the service around.

Football is by far the most popular sport in America, but the NBA is by far the most popular online sports entity to young fans. Not only can they monetize that directly through social media It gives them negotiating strength with the streaming services and networks who are also big on social media, and chasing that generation that has never and will never pay for cable.

The NBA And the live sports in general are the bridge between the young and the old. Its the only thing you can go to to get 64 and 24-year-old people to show up at a specific time on whatever service you make them pay for.

The nba knows it. They have media companies by the balls till an alternative comes up.

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 11:23 PM

If so, why bother changing the officiating? I guess it results in more highlights if defenses are non-existent but it also results in less as everything is a foul.

It was news to me people aren't watching games. I have to believe it though.

i’m watching games, but I’m not the target demographic. You can’t build a long-term plan around old people. It’s why baseball is having to rebuild its entire model on the fly. They don’t get enough viewers to justify local TV deals. There are a few giant ones, but the money isn’t there for everyone. They have to get the kids and teens involved.

They sold out to Apple TV but that didn’t do much.

Apple has bigger targets. They might well be bidding on the nba.

There have been persistent rumors they can outright buy ESPN from Disney and bundle with Apple TV.

Everyone needs sports. And they’re all gonna pay. For one more cycle at least. This ten year deal everyone eats.

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 11:30 PM

What about Football? I recently took a look at CBS' most viewed content and out of the top 100 of those football was at least 20%, maybe more. Some games well above 40 million viewers. Do people watch football games but not basketball games? Or it is the same trend just with different numbers?

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 11:37 PM

The nfl here is what soccer is outside of America. They also have an older fanbase that will sit down and watch games. Commercials and all. In fact, the Super Bowl is the only thing on all of TV people will gather around and pay attention to the commercials.

I watched the Super Bowl at a dockside party in Miami a couple years ago with what had to be a few thousand people and it would actually get quiet during commercials so people could hear. Outdoor party in Miami drinks and food flowing and people sitting around on yachts popping bottles. but when it went to the First commercial? Everybody got quiet to pay attention.

Nothing gets people to a live airing like sports and nothing competes in this country with football.

The nba doesn’t even try. Just goes for the kids and the online wins. They beat the nfl online.

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 11:37 PM

elementally morale

01-10-2024, 11:43 PM

Until there is a shift in society and Americans are willing to watch sports on their own time after they air? The big sports leagues will demand billions of dollars. streaming services and cable packages simply can’t survive without the subscribers who won’t buy it without live sports.

Why is the money paid to the NBA goes up from these sources? If the program is there but no one is watching you still get paid? In other words: are today's players paid on the idea that it is POSSIBLE watching them?

Kblaze8855

01-10-2024, 11:55 PM

Yep once you pay for the rights the nba gets paid even if you don’t watch. It sounds weird but on the other hand…when ratings are high you think espn or tnt pays the nba more to air it? They don’t.

It’s how Dave Chapelle explained the Pay of stand-up comics. “ I’m like Evil Knievel. I get paid for the attempt. I never promised this shit would be good.”.

You don’t have to watch for them to get paid when the pay is for the right to say “Wehave live nba games” In an effort to secure subscribers.

You think Netflix cares what exactly you watch as long as you don’t cancel your subscription?

The things that get watched the most go viral, and Netflix uses that for advertisement. But the actual streams don’t add revenue to them.

It’s the same for most streamed content now. They only care about streams in the broadest terms. If you don’t cancel your subscription, they don’t care if you die. They’re using us to replace the old Pay TV model where everyone in America with cable had ESPN even if they hated sports. Everybody paid three dollars a month of the cable bill to ESPN even if you never turned on the channel because the people who do watch sports won’t pay for the service at all without ESPN.

now they go à la cart and come straight for your credit card number. And you’re way less likely to cancel 8 bucks a month than to get rid of a 159 dollar cable bill thus far. They know that eventually two or three of them will be sharing the entire country, and the last men standing will have live sports.

elementally morale

01-11-2024, 12:01 AM

I think I get most of what you are saying except the idea that you have to have live sports on the menu even if only 10% of you viewership is interested 2 times a year and 2% of your viewership is a regular watcher.

In my mind it somehow translates to Donovan Mitchell's 350 million dollar deal on the idea the he is not watched at all but is possible being watched. In fact, it makes sense while being utter nonsense at the same time.

Kblaze8855

01-11-2024, 12:11 AM

Sports fans are like single issue voters. They can agree with your whole platform, but if you’re pro or anti-abortion, they can’t vote for you for that reason alone. If somebody watches sports they have to have ESPN. And ESPN takes that specialization to the next step by making sure they have all the major sports, so no matter what sport you are after you have to have ESPN so all the platforms have to have espn.

Espn pays all the sports leagues whatever they demand because even larger entities like Apple and Amazon will pay them back plus the extra ESPN demands to make it one succinct package. It’s all about building passive monthly dependable subscription based revenue. They throw 40 things at the wall and don’t care which of the 40 is the reason you don’t cancel. Just keep that auto pay processing.

Kblaze8855

01-11-2024, 12:18 AM

Oh, and the next step is gambling. We are talking a trillion industry with all of these involved entities lobbying Local and federal lawmakers to legalize online sports betting on the various apps. That happens? You get legal sports betting coast to coast? The revenue is going to jump even higher. Last I read both the NFL and NBA were angling to get one percent of all the bets placed on their leagues through licensed legal casinos.

illegal sports betting is almost $2 trillion a year. How much you think the NBA and NFL can carve off by backing DraftKings and companies like that fighting to make it legal?

They are just getting started big picture wise. The games at that point will just have to be played. Active viewers will matter even less.

elementally morale

01-11-2024, 12:19 AM

They throw 40 things at the wall and don’t care which of the 40 is the reason you don’t cancel. Just keep that auto pay processing.

The whole idea is based upon the assumption that enough viewers watch at least one sport regularly to care enough if you have sport or not. On the other hand, we started off with the premise that new viewers don't watch sports just highlights. But okay, I imagine there are tons of people who feel like: it has to be there even if I don't watch it because some day I may.

But why does it not factor in the business model what is being watched more? Per your Netflix example: if you have shows noone cares about (or very few people like) then in the end you are likely to lose subscribers. So I imagined they want to know which show was actually streamed and which one wasn't. Why does it not matter?

Xiao Yao You

01-11-2024, 12:31 AM

1987_Lakers

01-11-2024, 12:33 AM

An NFL playoff game is being shown only on Peacock so you have to subscribe to Peacock if you want to watch the game.

https://reddit1.nflbite.com/

Wrong

Xiao Yao You

01-11-2024, 12:37 AM

https://reddit1.nflbite.com/

Wrong

legally

Kblaze8855

01-11-2024, 12:55 AM

The whole idea is based upon the assumption that enough viewers watch at least one sport regularly to care enough if you have sport or not. On the other hand, we started off with the premise that new viewers don't watch sports just highlights. But okay, I imagine there are tons of people who feel like: it has to be there even if I don't watch it because some day I may.

But why does it not factor in the business model what is being watched more? Per your Netflix example: if you have shows noone cares about (or very few people like) then in the end you are likely to lose subscribers. So I imagined they want to know which show was actually streamed and which one wasn't. Why does it not matter?

they track it to decide what is worth investing in production wise and what is worth advertising and propping up as a reason to continue the service. But I promise you nobody at Netflix cares if viewership across the board dropped if it weren’t reflected in subscriber losses.

they’ll happily take more people watching less.

You’d be surprised how often that results in more profit.

It’s all about maximizing what you get from each user. ESPN rating have never been lower but an internal report showed they generated more profit than all of Disney’s entertainment sector combined.

Cord cutting has hurt the subscriber base but going direct to consumer lets them charge more per consumer. The people doing business with them directly and paying for ESPN plus or the Disney bundle including ESPN plus help make up for the fact they are in less homes on cable TV. Plus the back end of all sports media deals is where the network eats. It always looks like a bad deal for the network upfront but sports is one of the few things always growing. ESPN is pretty much putting the ACC in the grave. Signed a gigantic deal for like 15 or 20 years and a in few years realized ESPN severely underpaid them.

but ESPN keeps them at that low rate for as long as they choose. Now as possible, ESPN may opt out early, but it’s up to them.

ESPN gets a lot of criticism and much of it justified but America’s obsession with sports make them one of the only safe bets.

Kblaze8855

01-11-2024, 12:59 AM

https://reddit1.nflbite.com/

Wrong

i’ve been streaming for 20 years. I’ve had paid streaming services on android boxes, with 5 to 8000 channels. And even with those one thing is certain…..

You don’t risk using an illegal stream to watch a big sporting event. Especially if you’re going to have people over. I would never rely on such a thing for the NFL playoffs. I can always find a stream, but every site along those lines is going to go down eventually. My old bookmarks are 10 streaming sites that have been seized or otherwise gone away.

Not risking it for anything I actually care about seeing. Especially not when my house has traditionally been where people show up to watch sports.

Xiao Yao You

01-11-2024, 01:02 AM

they track it to decide what is worth investing in production wise and what is worth advertising and propping up as a reason to continue the service. But I promise you nobody at Netflix cares if viewership across the board dropped if it weren’t reflected in subscriber losses.

they’ll happily take more people watching less.

You’d be surprised how often that results in more profit.

It’s all about maximizing what you get from each user. ESPN rating have never been lower but an internal report showed they generated more profit than all of Disney’s entertainment sector combined.

Cord cutting has hurt the subscriber base but going direct to consumer lets them charge more per consumer. The people doing business with them directly and paying for ESPN plus or the Disney bundle including ESPN plus help make up for the fact they are in less homes on cable TV. Plus the back end of all sports media deals is where the network eats. It always looks like a bad deal for the network upfront but sports is one of the few things always growing. ESPN is pretty much putting the ACC in the grave. Signed a gigantic deal for like 15 or 20 years and a in few years realized ESPN severely underpaid them.

but ESPN keeps them at that low rate for as long as they choose. Now as possible, ESPN may opt out early, but it’s up to them.

ESPN gets a lot of criticism and much of it justified but America’s obsession with sports make them one of the only safe bets.

ESPN is trying to force you to subscribe to ESPN +. A lot of stuff I used to watch is now on there. **** em!

elementally morale

01-11-2024, 01:05 AM

Let's imagine the state of affairs 10 years from now. Will the games still be played? Is it necessary to have the actual games?

elementally morale

01-11-2024, 01:06 AM

ESPN is trying to force you to subscribe to ESPN +. A lot of stuff I used to watch is now on there. **** em!

And what replaced them?

Kblaze8855

01-11-2024, 01:14 AM

Kblaze8855

01-11-2024, 01:19 AM

ESPN is trying to force you to subscribe to ESPN +. A lot of stuff I used to watch is now on there. **** em!

it’s in my Disney+. Bundle, along with Hulu. I don’t even think about it. All my subscriptions are spread across so many different accounts and credit cards that I barely use just to keep them active. I never see them all at once. I don’t even know where my Sirius radio or Spotify payments come from.

I’m also not entirely sure where my league pass is paid. I think it’s one of the things that appears on one of my credit cards as an Amazon prime subscription.

This is the way they want it. Chip away at you. Death by a thousand cuts you don’t notice. And it works on me. I have every service I’m aware of. But I have cable on top of it.

hundreds of channels in four rooms and a sunroom and I’m not sure any of those TVs has been on the cable box in months. I’ll end up streaming something on the related service on the TV when the same game is on cable somewhere.

The sunroom fire stick had my cable services app on it but last time I tried to use it there was a message saying it was added to Amazon without permission and is now deactivated. Probably some corporate beef.

elementally morale

01-11-2024, 01:20 AM

Don’t have Highlights to post if the games aren’t played. But I don’t know how they get back the kids. the people they are after to continue leading sports online just don’t watch TV the way fans used to watch TV. It might come down to gambling. How much money do you think is bet on NBA games yearly? That’s probably hidden bonanza they’re all waiting to cash in.

Or you could have 45 second games but 120 of them every day. Each team plays 8 games, 45 seconds each. Good for attention span. No need for arenas, one big bubble would do. Why not?

Kblaze8855

01-11-2024, 01:26 AM

Now that’s a whole other thing. Sports and the places to play them are huge part of real estate development and ties into politics. A sports league coming in buying a shitty underdeveloped area and making it pretty much a small city?

The overall economic impact on an area is always hard to quantify, but the people both in favor, and against it will give you a bunch of numbers suggesting they know exactly what it does. One thing for sure cities don’t like losing them And have shown time and time again, they will bend the knee to keep them.

1987_Lakers

01-11-2024, 01:39 AM

i’ve been streaming for 20 years. I’ve had paid streaming services on android boxes, with 5 to 8000 channels. And even with those one thing is certain…..

You don’t risk using an illegal stream to watch a big sporting event. Especially if you’re going to have people over. I would never rely on such a thing for the NFL playoffs. I can always find a stream, but every site along those lines is going to go down eventually. My old bookmarks are 10 streaming sites that have been seized or otherwise gone away.

Not risking it for anything I actually care about seeing. Especially not when my house has traditionally been where people show up to watch sports.

Obviously you can't rely on them with other people watching with you, but there are tons of streams/links with the same game just in case one of them starts to lag (like the one I linked). Even if stream sites get taken down eventually, new ones always pop up.

Kblaze8855

01-11-2024, 01:57 AM

Like I said, I’m pretty familiar with the technology. I was on here in like 2002 showing other people how to use primitive apps like TVU player to get cable channels. But none of that shit is worth it to me at this point in my life. I’ll probably have 12 to 15 meals a month that cost more than a year of peacock.

I don’t judge the value of things as much by what they used to cost as the actual cost and what I get out of them. If I didn’t already have Peacock, I would absolutely get it to watch that game. People hate to let the evil corporations win, but I don’t care about that. They don’t need my help establishing the precedent they’re going for.

Give it a few years whole rounds of the playoffs will be exclusive to YouTube, Apple TV, or prime. Just is what it is.

Kblaze8855

01-12-2024, 11:53 AM

People are out there day and night going over the necessary footwork to make things like this legal

https://i.ibb.co/fM3Z5V9/IMG-7452.gif

It’s like a badge of honor to these trainers. The people I’ve posted in here work with young players, college guys and NBA players in the off-season. There are videos of them. One of these guys posted a session of him and bone collector in the lab putting together moves with James Harden who used in the NBA.

These people are going frame by frame, showing referees what they do technically is not illegal.

there is no language in any rulebook specifying how many steps a gather can take. Only that once you gather, you can take two more. When you intentionally send your last dribble in the direction you want to go, but avoid completing the dribble by going completely under it, or touching it with both hands, you can technically be said to have completed the gather several steps in and then take two more. He’s just making it hit your eye, weirdly by the last dribble going in unexpected direction.

This dude will pull out clips of plays we have always ignored where someone takes three or four steps between dribbles And you realize he is absolutely right. You see it all the time. Especially when someone will do something like a nutmeg and chop their feet, going around the defender to recover the dribble on the other side. You see it all the time on breaks. It’s perfectly legal to take four or five steps between dribbles So it’s perfectly legal to take four or five steps while gathering so long as you continue in legal position to restart your dribble.

I don’t care what the rules say I’m calling that a travel every time because the people doing this shit mostly aren’t in the NBA. They are training people by the broadest possible interpretation of NBA and fiba rules and teaching them that way on levels where it is entirely illegal.

But by doing it, they are changing what the average fan accepts which in time will make basketball with the NBA says it is.

This is why every Clip of someone traveling in college or high school has people saying you don’t know ball if you call a travel, despite the fact the rules that make it arguably legal not being applied on the level in question.

The NBA and these trainers have contributed to bag culture, totally changing the rules on every level.

FilmyCogTurner

01-12-2024, 07:38 PM

^that is a disgusting and a travel. I guess the problem lies within how clearly undefined the gather is and what was formally an unspoken rule has now been bastardized with zero check from league officials.

And I read the entire thread and something doesn't add up regarding the money the NBA generates from TV deals. The boost in player salary has to be tied to international coverage and how the game has exploded around the globe. I understand most of what you're saying kblaze but something still seems off to me. Even with younger generations not watching full games anymore the people that do must offer better ratings than the rest of the stations broadcast content, excluding NFL of course - which would then justify the cost of covering the NBA.