Is the Holmgren-Wemby situation the new Melo-Bron rookie year thing?

[elementally morale]

The board was here (the old one) when Carmelo and LeBron were rookies. Before that season LeBron was hyped a lot more. By midseason it was a serious debate as to which one of those players will become better. We know how that played out. Two good players but a huge gap in goodness.

Same situation now?

Wemby had a lot more hype going into the season. After the first 10-15 games it suddenly became a debate. According to many, Holmgren is the better choice due to shot selection, efficiency, teamplay and wins. Lately, Wembanyama is gaining some ground again. What's your take?

a) huge gap, Wemby all the way
b) huge gap, Holmgren is the one
c) it's a wash, both will be great
d) neither is that good, it's just hype
e) two tall players starting at the same year but that's where similarities end

[Xiao Yao You]

don't see it as the same. Carmelo was always just another high scoring sf not one of the greats. These guys are special if they can stay healthy

[elementally morale]

don't see it as the same. Carmelo was always just another high scoring sf not one of the greats. These guys are special if they can stay healthy

By the end of their rookie year this board was seriously discussing whether LeBron or Melo would turn out to be the better player. Rookie of the year was not at all clear cut here as I remember it.

I don't know what I think. I prefer Holmgren's playing style. On the other hand, Wemby doesn't have one. He does a bit of everything and doesn't have a role on his team on offense. So all I'm seeing may be only due to one team with a goal (winning) and the other team just 'being out there'. Wemby has definitely more room for improvement than does Holmgren. I think. And I'm not sure.

[pandiani17]

I really like these type of seasons when there are more than one candidate for the ROY until the end of the year. Actually, my first season following the league was the 1999-2000 and I remember Elton Brand, Steve Francis and Lamar Odom fighting for it until the end. From then on, there haven't been that many seasons with that kind of competition for that award.

About the LeBron-Melo rookie season, I think Carmelo deserved the trophy because he led his team to the post-season, something Bron didn't do (and I say this as a LeBron fan). Making them co-rookies of the year could have been another option.

[Xiao Yao You]

By the end of their rookie year this board was seriously discussing whether LeBron or Melo would turn out to be the better player. Rookie of the year was not at all clear cut here as I remember it.

I don't know what I think. I prefer Holmgren's playing style. On the other hand, Wemby doesn't have one. He does a bit of everything and doesn't have a role on his team on offense. So all I'm seeing may be only due to one team with a goal (winning) and the other team just 'being out there'. Wemby has definitely more room for improvement than does Holmgren. I think. And I'm not sure.

Was never a question for me. Carmelo hyped himself, Denver had a better team and he tried to take all the credit though adding Andre and Camby was a huge part of it. I think this is the first game I saw Lebron. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200402110CLE.html Probably one of the worst games of his career. He was obviously something special though. I grew up on the real A.D., English, Bernard King, etc. so Carmelo didn't get me that excited

Can't say I've been that impressed with Holmgren from college and the one time I saw him this year but the numbers say a lot. Wemby reminds me of Sampson. Rather either of them stay healthy is the biggest question

[Full Court]

Thus far, Holmgren should be ROY over Wemby. Who knows how their respective careers will play out, but Holmgren's been the clear-cut best rookie halfway through the season.

[elementally morale]

Thus far, Holmgren should be ROY over Wemby. Who knows how their respective careers will play out, but Holmgren's been the clear-cut best rookie halfway through the season.

I would've said the same thing 10 games ago but recently I saw something changing. On the other hand I saw the two of them combined in less than 10 games this season, so a lot of my 'opinion' is based only on highlights and stats. In other words: my opinion simply doesn't count.

[TeflonDonTrump]

Melo should have won roty.

The year prior, the media said stoudamire won because his team made the playoffs over yao. Same thing happened with bran and melo but the media needed a new darling

[tpols]

It's more like Wade vs Lebron.

[Kblaze8855]

I grew up on the real A.D., English, Bernard King, etc. so Carmelo didn't get me that excited




as one of the few here, who remembers all of those people? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement. They were all scorers who didn’t do very much else. And Dantley was an even bigger ball stopper than Carmelo at times. Sure he was unstoppable. If you let him go 1 on 1 with anybody for seven seconds or play off him 5 feet in the midrange trying to stop him driving, but he wasn’t a defender at all. Wasn’t a special passer. His teams didn’t do anything except the one that won a title when they traded him for an arguably worse player.

and Alex English was basically Carmelo, but an even worse defender on a much higher pace team before players were expected to take shooting percentage wrecking three pointers. He was a beast making contested 12 footers, and I have made a topic or two pointing that out, but he was absolutely not a better player than Carmelo Anthony and he was on teams that started multiple Hall of Famers that did nothing to suggest he was.

Bernard was quicker than all of them with a goat touch at 12 feet so I would say Alex was the closest of those to him in style. I would take Bernard King first Of this group, but it doesn’t matter who you take second. If theyre your best player, you’re not gonna do anything much. Win 50 maybe. Maybe a conference finals a decade. But there is definitely nothing total game wise to separate them all. Melo is arguably a better ball handler and passer than all three. Had more range than all three. Was probably the best defender of the four on the rare occasion any of the four defense. And none of them won anything he didn’t on a team that needed them to do it.

It has to be the closest group of players I’ve ever seen anybody pretend one didn’t belong in. The elevated shooting percentages of the bad defensive 80s west doesn’t make them better at basketball anymore than the elevated scores now make all these guys better.

Skill set level wise? They’re all the same player except for Bernards ability to consistently make a tough shot even when you know what he’s going to do. And he did it quicker than AD or Melo so I’d rather have him as my guy. Not a ball stopper for his 30.

All on the same floor though?

They’re gonna give you about 30 points and little defense and do little else worth talking about. Just a matter of if it’s 11 of 22 or nine of 20 with melo taking a few threes which depending on the era might help with spacing.

Drop Carmelo in 1983 on a team that’s going to score 120 something a game in a time that would let you go one on one and just rotate ineffective defenders for most of the game?

They would all be about the same level. Bernard a half step up. Dantley will still shoot better, but he shot better while getting his ass kicked at the time. The rest of the league shooting better due to no threes, negated the impact of the difference.

[ArbitraryWater]

Thus far, Holmgren should be ROY over Wemby. Who knows how their respective careers will play out, but Holmgren's been the clear-cut best rookie halfway through the season.


Not clear cut anymore, keep up.

[Xiao Yao You]

as one of the few here, who remembers all of those people? That’s a pretty, ridiculous statement. They were all scores who didn’t do very much else. And Dantley wasn’t even bigger ball stopper than Carmelo at times. Sure he was unstoppable. If you let him go 101 with anybody for seven seconds, but he wasn’t a defender at all. Wasn’t a special passer. His teams didn’t do anything except the one that won a title when they traded him for an arguably worse player.

and Alex English was basically Carmelo, but an even worse defender on a much higher pace. Team before players were expected to take shooting percentage wrecking three pointers. He was a beast making contest at 12 footers, and I have made a topic or two pointing that out, but he was absolutely not a better player than Carmelo Anthony and he was on teams that started multiple Hall of Famers that did nothing to suggest he was.

Bernard was quicker than all of them with a goat touch at 12 feet so I would say Alex was the closest of those to him in style. I would take Bernard King first Of this group, but it doesn’t matter who you take second. If theyre your best player, you’re not gonna do anything much. Win 50 maybe. Maybe a conference finals a decade. But there is definitely nothing total game wise to separate them all. Mellow is arguably a better ball handler and passer than all three. Had more range than all three. Was probably the best defender of the four on the rare occasion any of the foreplay defense. And none of them won anything he didn’t team that needed them to do it.

It Hass to be the closest group of players I’ve ever seen anybody pretend one didn’t belong in. The elevated shooting percentages of the defensive 80s west doesn’t make them better at basketball anymore than the elevated scores now make all these guys better.

Skill set wise? They’re all the same player except for Bernards ability to consistently make a tough shot even when you know what he’s going to do. And he did it quicker than AD or Melo so I’d rather have him as my guy. Not a ball stopper for his 30.

All on the same floor though?

They’re gonna give you about 30 points and little defense and do little else worth talking about. Just a matter of if it’s 11 of 22 or nine of 20 with melo taking a few threes which depending on the era might help with spacing.

Drop Carmelo in 1983 on a team that’s going to score 120 something a game in a time that would let you go one on one and just rotate ineffective defenders for most of the game?

They would all be about the same level. Bernard a half step up. Dantley will still shoot better, but he shot better while getting his ass kicked at the time. The rest of the league shooting better due to no threes, negated the impact of the difference.

pretty much what I've said with a lot fewer words. Another high scoring small forward that should never have talked about with Lebron or Wade or the best players of all-time much like the other guys weren't talked about with Bird and Magic

[Kblaze8855]

They kinda were though history just has a way of pretending there’s a giant difference with people after the careers play out. If you asked at the top of his game, Bernard King or Magic Johnson, a hell of a lot more people at the time would have said Bernard than would say it now.

people Wouldn’t look at it like a stupid question the way they would now. Magic had a roughly 19 10 and 10 season leading the league in steals on a 57 win team for which he won his second finals MVP. And he was all NBA second team that year behind Gus Williams, and George Gervin.


whatever anybody thinks of the validity of that selection it does show that a lot of these people were considered on the same level in the same league. History creates a lot more distinction than is visible to the eye at the time.

Melo vs Lebron went on for longer than it should have too.

I remember that four-way sit down he and LeBron had with Bird and magic for some tv special. There were some people pretty annoyed he was even in that company at the time. Bird and magic seemed to embrace it.

I’m not sure when that comparison died and we stopped getting them on national TV every time they played, but it lingered a bit. As always, LeBron haters here were ridiculous. A couple Carmelo fans were saying LeBron wouldn’t even last in the league just based off the summer league and just kept the hate up until there was nothing left to say.

[90sgoat]

If Michael Carter-Williams can be ROTY then so can Wemby.

[elementally morale]

^ I didn't really took a side in the Melo vs. Bron debate in their rookie years but I actually did like LeBron's game back then. I remember having thought he would be more of a Magic Johnson type of player in his first 2-3 years and I loved what I saw. He changed his playing style and I didn't like the result. I still don't like it, even though it's efficient. Just don't like to watch. However, I never thouhht Melo was better. In their first year I simply couldn't decide and then it got one-sided pretty fast.

As I type this, I remember my (probably) biggest mistake about talent in the NBA. I was absolutely sure for long-long years that Deron Williams is/would be better than Chris Paul and I was looking forward to becoming a prophet in this regard. My opinion I wrote long paragraphs about didn't age well. :oldlol:

[Full Court]

I would've said the same thing 10 games ago but recently I saw something changing. On the other hand I saw the two of them combined in less than 10 games this season, so a lot of my 'opinion' is based only on highlights and stats. In other words: my opinion simply doesn't count.

There's still half a season left. Plenty of time for Wemby to run away with it. He certainly has the potential.

[Xiao Yao You]

^ I didn't really took a side in the Melo vs. Bron debate in their rookie years but I actually did like LeBron's game back then. I remember having thought he would be more of a Magic Johnson type of player in his first 2-3 years and I loved what I saw. He changed his playing style and I didn't like the result. I still don't like it, even though it's efficient. Just don't like to watch. However, I never thouhht Melo was better. In their first year I simply couldn't decide and then it got one-sided pretty fast.

As I type this, I remember my (probably) biggest mistake about talent in the NBA. I was absolutely sure for long-long years that Deron Williams is/would be better than Chris Paul and I was looking forward to becoming a prophet in this regard. My opinion I wrote long paragraphs about didn't age well. :oldlol:

Jazz thought so too. Ron Boone the only guy not to vote Paul ROTY might still think so because Deron beat him head to head :facepalm

[Duffy Pratt]

Deserve will have nothing to do with it. The league is investing a lot in creating the Wemby narrative, so he will get the award regardless of what either do from here on out. And he may actually become the player they are hyping him to be.

[ILLsmak]

I think we all knew deep down Bron would be better, but Melo was winning. He could have conceivably won ROY. But I don't think people really thought he'd have a better career, but he is underrated.

So, in terms of their rookie year, maybe, but I don't think it can be overstated that DUDE ISN'T A ROOKIE.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

I think we all knew deep down Bron would be better, but Melo was winning. He could have conceivably won ROY. But I don't think people really thought he'd have a better career, but he is underrated.

So, in terms of their rookie year, maybe, but I don't think it can be overstated that DUDE ISN'T A ROOKIE.

-Smak

not sure how he could ever be considered underrated. One of the most overrated players of his day certainly. He was talked about with the top players in the game which he never was one no matter how much he hyped himself to be one

[ILLsmak]

not sure how he could ever be considered underrated. One of the most overrated players of his day certainly. He was talked about with the top players in the game which he never was one no matter how much he hyped himself to be one

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-ulMP5Ep9EU

-Smak

[Kblaze8855]

not sure how he could ever be considered underrated. One of the most overrated players of his day certainly. He was talked about with the top players in the game which he never was one no matter how much he hyped himself to be one


The top players in the game are the ones who were calling him a top player in the game. I’ve certainly heard other Hall of Fame caliber guys talk about Melo more than I’ve heard him talk about himself. True or not it isn’t some narrative he came up with. The people who had to guard him were always his biggest proponents.

[Xiao Yao You]

He always thought he was something more than he was from the time he bitched about not making the all star game as a rookie over a deserving AK and talking like he alone was the difference in an improved Denver squad that added Andre Miller and Camby to the time he was 'a starter only' and the Jazz put him on an island to win the series

[Xiao Yao You]

oh and let's not forget him ending Linsanity because he didn't like winning as a 2nd fiddle

[ILLsmak]

oh and let's not forget him ending Linsanity because he didn't like winning as a 2nd fiddle

I don't think Linsanity was gonna last rofl. He prol did the kid a favor.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

I don't think Linsanity was gonna last rofl. He prol did the kid a favor.

-Smak

probably wouldn't have but it was working and they were winning which wasn't the case most of his tenure there. Poor Carmelo and what he wants is more important though. Got his trade to NY instead of waiting to be a free agent and lost his supporting cast in the process. As long as he got paid and got the ball nothing else mattered though

[ILLsmak]

probably wouldn't have but it was working and they were winning which wasn't the case most of his tenure there. Poor Carmelo and what he wants is more important though. Got his trade to NY instead of waiting to be a free agent and lost his supporting cast in the process. As long as he got paid and got the ball nothing else mattered though

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/toronto-raptors/jeremy-lin-7115/cash-earnings/

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/2/4/22916972/jeremy-lin-linsanity-knicks-asian-american-representation-10th-anniversary

Didn't he get injured anyway?

-Smak

[ShawkFactory]

as one of the few here, who remembers all of those people? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement. They were all scorers who didn’t do very much else. And Dantley was an even bigger ball stopper than Carmelo at times. Sure he was unstoppable. If you let him go 1 on 1 with anybody for seven seconds or play off him 5 feet in the midrange trying to stop him driving, but he wasn’t a defender at all. Wasn’t a special passer. His teams didn’t do anything except the one that won a title when they traded him for an arguably worse player.

and Alex English was basically Carmelo, but an even worse defender on a much higher pace team before players were expected to take shooting percentage wrecking three pointers. He was a beast making contested 12 footers, and I have made a topic or two pointing that out, but he was absolutely not a better player than Carmelo Anthony and he was on teams that started multiple Hall of Famers that did nothing to suggest he was.

Bernard was quicker than all of them with a goat touch at 12 feet so I would say Alex was the closest of those to him in style. I would take Bernard King first Of this group, but it doesn’t matter who you take second. If theyre your best player, you’re not gonna do anything much. Win 50 maybe. Maybe a conference finals a decade. But there is definitely nothing total game wise to separate them all. Melo is arguably a better ball handler and passer than all three. Had more range than all three. Was probably the best defender of the four on the rare occasion any of the four defense. And none of them won anything he didn’t on a team that needed them to do it.

It has to be the closest group of players I’ve ever seen anybody pretend one didn’t belong in. The elevated shooting percentages of the bad defensive 80s west doesn’t make them better at basketball anymore than the elevated scores now make all these guys better.

Skill set level wise? They’re all the same player except for Bernards ability to consistently make a tough shot even when you know what he’s going to do. And he did it quicker than AD or Melo so I’d rather have him as my guy. Not a ball stopper for his 30.

All on the same floor though?

They’re gonna give you about 30 points and little defense and do little else worth talking about. Just a matter of if it’s 11 of 22 or nine of 20 with melo taking a few threes which depending on the era might help with spacing.

Drop Carmelo in 1983 on a team that’s going to score 120 something a game in a time that would let you go one on one and just rotate ineffective defenders for most of the game?

They would all be about the same level. Bernard a half step up. Dantley will still shoot better, but he shot better while getting his ass kicked at the time. The rest of the league shooting better due to no threes, negated the impact of the difference.

Not to stick up for Xiao. It I don’t think he was saying Carmelo didn’t belong in that group of guys. I think the opposite.

But that that group wasn’t really anything special we hadn’t seen before and Bron was even when they were putting up similar numbers as rookies.