Reggie's game vs Seattle in 95

[Reggie43]

https://youtu.be/CdZ1eDGPhYw?si=9khf5j-7IX7Cji9c

Good game with a few rarely seen plays. Nice example of how he played in his prime back in the day.

[Kblaze8855]

I enjoyed the little bounce pass on the pick and roll. Hed have to develop that part quite a bit more for these days but the rest would fit right in. I suspect someone would tell him to stop taking long twos though. Just a bad habit of the whole era. Hidden a bit by the moved in line.

[Reggie43]

He always had that type of pass in his arsenal especially when he got older setting up JO going to the basket or pulling up for the jumper. I guess he always wanted to reward his bigs for setting those hard screens so he made sure they had their touches. Being a fairly weak ballhandler against double teams that was his way to escape the pressure instead of dribbling his way out.

[Kblaze8855]

Ifeel like Everybody who played basketball past middle school should be able to throw a bounce pass, so I wouldn’t dispute he had such things in his arsenal. But he never did enough with it to consider it big part of this game. Reggie playmaking or making a nice move handles wise is like when a bad defender makes a great stop. It’s gonna happen because they’re pros. But it isn’t to be expected.

There are a few stiff crossovers on his resume too. One blowing by Jordan.

[Reggie43]

That was a basic pass for him kind of weird you havent seen enough of it

[Kblaze8855]

It’s a pretty basic pass for anyone like most bounce passes. But I still enjoy them. Reggie definitely wasn’t a source of many Of them relative to people who consistently make plays for others off the dribble. I’m not judging his playmaking by the standards of Mutombo. I’m talking relative to other guards.

[Reggie43]

Yeah I get it but the thing is despite how limited he is handling the ball under pressure he makes smarter decisions and barely makes mistakes compared to most guys with better handles and high assist totals.

[Kblaze8855]

Well it’s a double edged sword. You have to ask is he making better decisions or his lack of ability not allowing him to make the tough decisions better playmakers are in position to make? Guys like him and Glen Rice and Klay…. They aren’t going to have many turnovers. And the obvious reason is they don’t do the things that result in turnovers. Steve Nash is going to have a lot more because he’s more skilled passing and handling the ball. John Stockton doesnt average 50% more turnovers than Reggie Miller because he doesn’t make smart decisions. Relatively speaking, Reggie, can’t dribble or pass so he is put in very basic situations that don’t make mistakes as likely.

It’s one of those good things based on a bad thing like big men who shoot 65% because they can’t score as well as guys who shoot 50%. If they were good, they wouldn’t only be taking shots you can’t miss. And if Reggie were a good ball handler and passer, he would average more turnovers because he would be doing more with the ball. Reggie was a turn your back to protect the ball guy not a rush-hour handles guy.

Now….some of the comparison to today’s players isn’t fair For any number of reasons. Nobody grows up posting up and the screen up high is such a part of the game all guards become faceup ballhandlers. So he was never gonna be an eat you up off the dribble guy at the rate guys today are. He was perfectly functional for what he was asked to do. He just wasn’t going to do a lot beyond that. Obviously, the things he could do were sufficient for him to have a great career.

he could go out there in his prime right now with absolutely no additional skills and destroy people just playing off the ball and being told to take 12 threes a game.

[Reggie43]

He could handle the ball more and play iso and jackup shots but that would make him inefficient when he has teammates in a better position to score but yeah he would look more skilled to people analyzing his game 25+ years later. He did that after they broke up their Finals team and with the loss of Mark Jackson and in the 2001 playoffs he tried to match Iverson shot for shot but they lost because the Sixers had a better smarter more cohesive team.

[Kblaze8855]

Well that’s always the balancing act because efficiently scoring less points than your team needed doesn’t actually matter. Just looks good on a stat sheet. Larry explained it best




“Superstars are supposed to go get the basketball.”LARRY BIRD
To a man, the Pacers were talking about how hard they need to work to get Reggie Miller better shots tonight.


Larry Bird, though, feels differently. Millerholds his destiny – and the Pacers’ – in his hands. But Miller’s hands have not had the basketball nearly enough. So while, yes, more screens, better screens, would be nice, Miller needs to go get the ball and, in a nutshell, be selfish. Yeah, it’s nice to spring a teammate on a roll. But the teammates aren’t going to be who leads Indiana to victory. Miller can.

So far, though, Miller has attempted just five shots in the final four minutes of the three games combined. He has missed all five. Worse, with the game on the line twice in the final possession, Miller never touched the ball. Great players find a way, Bird insisted, issuing a not so subtle challenge to Miller for tonight’s Game 4 at the Garden.

“We’ve got to set better picks … [but] Reggie gave in a couple times where he was defended well and he sought of gave in to it and let the ball swing to the other side of the court. With two minutes to go, I was sitting there wondering, ‘When is he going to go and get the ball in his hands?'” Bird related. “And that’s where we want it: in his hands because we know they’re not going to foul him and we know he can make that play for us. It just didn’t happen.”
Miller promised to be more aggressive tonight. He’ll put up 15, 20, even 25 shots if need be. But being aggressive isn’t just hurling shots, Bird explained. It’s seeking the ball and seeking the shot, not waiting for teammates to clear everything out and being simply selfish, regardless of what teammates were doing. Bird obviously felt Miller became too much of a spectator during Rik Smits’ Game 3 bust-out. So go get it and shoot.

“Jordan was that way,” Bird said. “Scottie (Pippen) would score six or eight points in a row and then it would come down to the last two minutes and you know who was going to have the ball. That is what we’ve got to do with Reggie. Go get the basketball. That’s the way it is. Superstars are supposed to go get the basketball.”
And there was another guy besides Jordan who thought along those lines. Guy named Bird who laughed recalling his reaction if teammate Kevin McHale was having his way offensively in the post.
“I’ll tell him to get his (butt) out of there and go outside and I was going in the post awhile,” Bird said.


Now he wants to infuse that mentality into Miller, who attempted a paltry nine shots in Game 3. The Pacers cannot defeat the Knicks if one of the greatest Knick killers of all time takes nine shots.

“Reggie sees other guys going and he’s not going to break off so he can score. That’s why I feel sometimes Reggie is too unselfish,” Bird said. “I remember watching some Eastern Conference finals when I wasn’t coaching and I watched the games and looked in the paper and I thought, ‘Wow, Miller shot 12 times. You can’t win with Miller shooting 12 times. Now I’m in it and he’s shooting nine times. He thinks our team is better when everyone is involved. We are. But there comes a time in the game where he’s got to have the ball in his hands when he’s got to be selfish.”

[Reggie43]

He is just wired that way but atleast he ramps it up in the playoffs in most years with one of the exceptions is 98 when they had a great team. I read it in his book i think 5 years ago with him downplaying a game where he scored I think 37 plus points because they lost saying the reason for the L was he shot too much then pointing out that they won the next game because he shared the ball with his teammates more.

[Kblaze8855]

If he bought into what Larry Brown was telling him, I can see him believing that. Larry Brown sat him down on day one and told him he wasn’t the kind of player who could win playing like that. And to his credit, Larry has said he took it really well. I can see how making that adjustment and having a good team playing that way for years after he was a more well-rounded and aggressive scorer in his youth, and didn’t win a playoff series till he was 27-28 would alter his approach. But fact is Bird was right pointing out that despite all the claims that he would always step up in games he would often just chill while his team was needing a basket.

it really is one of the biggest pieces of revisionist history. The idea that Reggie always stepped up when it was needed. I’m sure you remember guys who absolutely shouldn’t have had the ball deciding big games, while Reggie stood there literally with his hands on his hips. I’d imagine what’s what annoyed Larry.

I wish I could find the story I read when bird kept telling him to be aggressive and he said he was being aggressive, but he was five of 15 and Larry told him that “If you were being aggressive you’d be 5/25”.

it’s the kind of lesson only somebody like Larry can teach. Especially these days when people are so focused on efficiency They disregard that all the score board cares about is the point total. It’s not like when Reggie doesn’t score himself it’s a guaranteed bucket from a role player. More often if it isn’t Reggie or Rik It’s a defensive minded role player taking a tough shot. If a tough shot has to be taken, I have more confidence in Reggie Miller making it. Swinging the ball doesn’t always result in an easy shot. And there is no way to Account for points lost by non scorers forced to take shots legendary offensive players like Reggie are much more suited to. The percentage of shots Reggie made would fall personally, but it’s likely the percentage the team made would rise at the same time by eliminating role-player misses and getting a 35% Reggie bad shot instead. I’ll take 35% over a known miss. But you can’t see it real time. Can’t confirm it so it’s only hypothetical without data. And the data helps get past the “feelings”.

being unselfish is only a positive until your team scores 81 points and the other team has 86 while you take 14 shots versus a team that really can’t defend you.

It’s one of those things that just goes against peoples preconceived notions on what smart basketball is.

It’s one thing I have to reluctantly credit the analytics movement for changing. They just go with what works. Way they see it if the star shooting the ball over time results in more points why should anybody else be a focal point? It’s how teams like the Mavs who didn’t have elite talent had all time efficient offenses at times with Luka.

but like everything else, there’s a balancing act, because long-term it stunts the development of the other players.

it’s one reason I think he would be so much better today. It’s not as simple as getting more threes. It’s having an analytics department sit him down and explain he can’t let Haywood Workman dribble out a big game. He can’t let Mark Jackson take foul line floaters for the season while he watches. He can’t get the ball from Andre Miller on team USA trying to win late…realize he doesn’t have a look…and give it back to Andre for the tough contested 3.

You’re Reggie Miller. He’s Andre Miller. You’re the one who takes the tough three. That’s doing your job. His job is to get you that ball. Even if you aren’t open, his job is to get it to you. You can’t throw the role reversal at him at the last second. Now team USA has lost for the first time with nba players.

it’s so incredibly obvious, but it also offends the sensibilities fans who conflate basketball IQ with not shooting because so many players considered intelligent, are also considered unselfish. But it’s not showing a high basketball IQ to efficiently shoot less than your team needs you to shoot.

Mix his natural unselfishness with modern analytics telling him the ball has to go through him for maximum efficiency he’d probably live in the sweet spot his whole career.

[Reggie43]

A 37 year old Reggie Miller playing thru a significant ankle injury that needed surgery was supposed to rescue Team USA?

[Kblaze8855]

He didn’t turn 37 when he was given the ball late and wasn’t open. He had taken 5 threes that day. I don’t think his injury was more significant because 5 seconds were left. Faced with the decision between a contested three for the game and for the country from Reggie Miller or an off the dribble contested three from Andre Miller? Reggie is the pick. The team had nine All-Stars and got it to Reggie with the game on the line and he gave it right back.

If he thought he was suddenly incapable of playing after playing the whole game, perhaps he should sit down. he didn’t get old and injured during the time out.

[Reggie43]

I know he had a long prime but he was old, washed up and injured. You cant disregard that even though you hate the guy.

[tpols]

Reggie Miller scored more points in the playoffs than...

Charles Barkley
David Robinson
Clyde Drexler
Isiah Thomas
Pat Ewing
Moses Malone
Oscar Robertson
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Kawhi
Garnett
Ray Allen

I mean... the list goes on and on. The notion that he was a low volume scorer just isn't rooted in reality at all.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Well it’s a double edged sword. You have to ask is he making better decisions or his lack of ability not allowing him to make the tough decisions better playmakers are in position to make? Guys like him and Glen Rice and Klay…. They aren’t going to have many turnovers. And the obvious reason is they don’t do the things that result in turnovers. Steve Nash is going to have a lot more because he’s more skilled passing and handling the ball. John Stockton doesnt average 50% more turnovers than Reggie Miller because he doesn’t make smart decisions. Relatively speaking, Reggie, can’t dribble or pass so he is put in very basic situations that don’t make mistakes as likely.

It’s one of those good things based on a bad thing like big men who shoot 65% because they can’t score as well as guys who shoot 50%. If they were good, they wouldn’t only be taking shots you can’t miss. And if Reggie were a good ball handler and passer, he would average more turnovers because he would be doing more with the ball. Reggie was a turn your back to protect the ball guy not a rush-hour handles guy.

Now….some of the comparison to today’s players isn’t fair For any number of reasons. Nobody grows up posting up and the screen up high is such a part of the game all guards become faceup ballhandlers. So he was never gonna be an eat you up off the dribble guy at the rate guys today are. He was perfectly functional for what he was asked to do. He just wasn’t going to do a lot beyond that. Obviously, the things he could do were sufficient for him to have a great career.

he could go out there in his prime right now with absolutely no additional skills and destroy people just playing off the ball and being told to take 12 threes a game.

I was watching some Open Court episodes this week and they were comparing Penny to Magic as ball handlers and the argument was Penny was better due to never having to face up his defender. The reasoning is solid.

[Kblaze8855]

I know he had a long prime but he was old, washed up and injured. You cant disregard that even though you hate the guy.

Which of those things did he become after the timeout? Because none of them prevented him shooting till just that moment. The shit happened his entire career. You and I both watched him not come open and either stand there or throw the ball to a worse scorer to make something happen plenty of times. It didn’t start in 2002. And it certainly didn’t start at the end of that game. Do I actually need to show you him making shots that game so you can stop pretending the reason he didn’t then was anything but the reason he didn’t 400 times previous?

The guy simply didn’t try to get the shot. He did it when scrubs were the other options. Of course he’d do it on team USA. He just picked a shitty time.

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie Miller scored more points in the playoffs than...

Charles Barkley
David Robinson
Clyde Drexler
Isiah Thomas
Pat Ewing
Moses Malone
Oscar Robertson
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Kawhi
Garnett
Ray Allen

I mean... the list goes on and on. The notion that he was a low volume scorer just isn't rooted in reality at all.

He scored 25000 points in the NBA. Being a low volume scorer was not being discussed because it would be ****ing stupid. If I didn’t think he could score I wouldn’t expect him to try. At least three coaches and multiple teammates over the years called it out trying to motivate him. It’s hardly a concept I came up with 20 years later.

He actually got called out for it before his 57 point game. After a good game at that. He had like 30 and his teammates pointed out several times he shouldn’t have passed. It’s entirely possible his career high was almost in protest like “Fine. I’ll be selfish and see how they like it” when it was exactly what they wanted.

[Phoenix]

Reggie Miller scored more points in the playoffs than...

Charles Barkley
David Robinson
Clyde Drexler
Isiah Thomas
Pat Ewing
Moses Malone
Oscar Robertson
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Kawhi
Garnett
Ray Allen

I mean... the list goes on and on. The notion that he was a low volume scorer just isn't rooted in reality at all.

Obviously he wasn't low volume at 20.6ppg for the playoffs but if you score enough and play enough games the math will eventually math. Tony Parker is 10th alltime in playoff scoring.

[Reggie43]

Him being unselfish made them a better team with great chemistry. He might be unselfish to a fault in one game then go for 30+ points on the next. Lets not nitpick certain plays because even much better players make mistakes in the clutch. Would his teammates play hard for him if he Jerry Stackhoused his way to 30 points a night?

[Kblaze8855]

Well by the time they were a good team(50 wins) they had 5 players who made all star games all between age 26 and 29 with McKey also on the all D teams. Six really good prime ages players at the same time several of them hard-working interior types and defensive specialists? They don’t strike me as a type to slack off. They just fall victim to the trend of considering teams without a bunch of scorers to have bad supporting casts. It was just a good team. Not like a scrappy group of scrubs playing hard for Reggie.

None of those guys were the type to lay down if they didn’t get touches. The only scorer other than Reggie was Smits who was often the first option. I don’t see any of those key players rebelling because Reggie takes more than 12 shots. They were probably some of the ones asking him why he wasn’t.

Larry Brown was probably the one who changed him for good. I don’t think his prime teammates ever felt he shouldn’t shoot more. Later on? Jalen, Jackson, and Jermaine may have wanted theirs. Those 90s teams?

They didn’t strike me as that type.

[Reggie43]

In his playoff prime he averages around 18 shots a night good for 24ppg more or less. He is as much of a threat to attempt 24 shots and be unselfish to a fault the next game.

[Reggie43]

Everyone's on me to shoot more. This is unbelievable.
They're getting on me to shoot more, get more attempts. I al-
ways felt that this team could win without me shooting
twenty, twenty-five times a game. But if they want me to put
the ball up more, I'll try to be more aggressive. If that's the key,
if that will help the team win, then that's what I'll do.
But that's what I did tonight. I scored 37 points, shot 22
times, hit 7 of 13 three-pointers... and we lost. See what I
mean? It doesn't always work when I score lots of points.

Excerpt from his book in 95