Earned or given?

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2401232219340387.jpeg

[sdot_thadon]

What he means for the organization? Absolutely earned, his play isn't as huge a part of it as his example is though so I could see how someone could say given. PP just being a salt shaker as usual. This is the guy that took a huge pay cut to allow a 4 year title window for the franchise.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's a reward for loyalty, not about whether or not he was a great player (he wasn't). With Pierce specifically this is also about the Celtic-Heat rivalry. Just like a week ago Haslem was outed for saying "**** Bill Russell" when his jersey was retired league-wide. Haslem had been talking about kicking Pierce and KG ass off the court for years. There's real hate there.

[Carbine]

I can't respect anyone who says "**** Bill Russell"

I'd take his jersey off the rafters for that alone if I was the owner.

[Kblaze8855]

The Bill Russell One annoyed me and I can tell somebody either got to him about that or he realized it was ****ed up as well because he actually issued an apology. That’s about the only situation I can imagine Haslem ever issuing an apology. There is a line. I don’t blue where it is but it’s well short of “**** Bill Russell”. Pat himself might have had to make a call on that one.

[Media Moderator]

Definitely given There are several coaches and broadcasters with jerseys hanging. If they had replaced 40 with a fist it would be much more deserving and respectful to the legendaries with jerseys hanging or those waiting to be hanged

[rawimpact]

Matter of perspective... him taking a paycut during his prime is what allowed MIA to get those rings, so they do owe him his money (which they obviously have paid the man for a decade after he should have been cut).

Retiring his Jersey? no way...

Question I have is how many jerseys have been hung for players that are not or will never be in the hall of fame?

This dude was never even an allstar

He's also a bonafide retard with some of the shit he says... he needs to stay off the podcast.

[warriorfan]

Earned. Definitely.


Matter of perspective... him taking a paycut during his prime is what allowed MIA to get those rings, so they do owe him his money (which they obviously have paid the man for a decade after he should have been cut).

Retiring his Jersey? no way...

Question I have is how many jerseys have been hung for players that are not or will never be in the hall of fame?

This dude was never even an allstar

He's also a bonafide retard with some of the shit he says... he needs to stay off the podcast.

How many players have played 20 years with one franchise?


Looking at the last line….it makes sense. You don’t like his politics so it’s making you biased on whether he “deserves” to have his number retired or not.

Lol. Jesus.

[FultzNationRISE]

I can't respect anyone who says "**** Bill Russell"

I'd take his jersey off the rafters for that alone if I was the owner.


This is such a patronizing way to view a man. As if Russell is some kind of special handicapped little brother that needs you to protect him, some kind of usefully sympathetic mascot for your values and ideals.

I have no idea what the context of Haslem’s comment was and whether it was a criticism of him personally or just some generic off hand comment, but Bill Russell was a grown, fully functional and competent man. You dont need to shield him or put him “above reproach” like a teacher telling the autistic kid who just said the answer to 2+2 is apples that he got it right and did a great job making the answer.

It’s okay if someone else doesnt kiss Bill Russell’s ass. You dont need to insist on it.

[Kblaze8855]

This is such a patronizing way to view a man. As if Russell is some kind of special handicapped little brother that needs you to protect him, some kind of usefully sympathetic mascot for your values and ideals.

I have no idea what the context of Haslem’s comment was and whether it was a criticism of him personally or just some generic off hand comment, but Bill Russell was a grown, fully functional and competent man. You dont need to shield him or put him “above reproach” like a teacher telling the autistic kid who just said the answer to 2+2 is apples that he got it right and did a great job making the answer.

It’s okay if someone else doesnt kiss Bill Russell’s ass. You dont need to insist on it.


it was entirely because Bill Russell was a Celtic, and the league was retiring his number and he hates the Celtics. And he swiftly apologized. He knew it was out of line. Or somebody with some sense did.

[Akeem34TheDream]

He is one of the least cool players imo. He should have been forgotten long time ago.

[FultzNationRISE]

it was entirely because Bill Russell was a Celtic, and the league was retiring his number and he hates the Celtics. And he swiftly apologized. He knew it was out of line. Or somebody with some sense did.

Out of line of what?? Obviously if thats the case he was just joking, being playful about the rivalry.

I understand clarifying it was a joke so theres no hard feelings. But APOLOGIZNG? Like it is some grave sin ever to involve Russell in trash talk or a joke? “Im so sorry for daring to be anything but completely solemn and serious when speaking The Great Bill Russell’s name, please forgive me!!!!”

People being offended FOR Russell over somethin like that is cornball shit.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not sure which bit you show more commitment. The pro-LeBron or the anti-decency. It’s like a flare goes up whenever anyone does the wrong thing for you to pop out and take the side against common courtesy. Just let this one go by. He apologized and it can be over.

[bison]

It’s not that big a deal. This isn’t the hall of fame. Each organization has complete control over how they want to honor their own players, as it should be. In that context you get a bit of leeway in factoring sentimental value over a player as much as simply what they brought on the court.

[rawimpact]

Earned. Definitely.



How many players have played 20 years with one franchise?


Looking at the last line….it makes sense. You don’t like his politics so it’s making you biased on whether he “deserves” to have his number retired or not.

Lol. Jesus.

Dont be silly, hes played 53 games combined the last 8 seasons... averaging less than 10min/game... only reason he lasted that long is because Miami paid him for taking the pay cut during the lebron era.... he talks about it on someones podcast

I don't even know his politics, i'm talking about the stupid talk such as the one he threw at Pierce and "**** bill russell" on his retirement speech.... cause you know, saying f XXX to a dead legend of bball is a good look.

[warriorfan]

Dont be silly, hes played 53 games combined the last 8 seasons... averaging less than 10min/game... only reason he lasted that long is because Miami paid him for taking the pay cut during the lebron era.... he talks about it on someones podcast

I don't even know his politics, i'm talking about the stupid talk such as the one he threw at Pierce and "**** bill russell" on his retirement speech.... cause you know, saying f XXX to a dead legend of bball is a good look.

Ok, well I take that back.

I’m gonna just say that you don’t get it, and I don’t mean it as an insult because I didn’t get it at first a couple of years ago when they kept bringing him back. I kinda get it now I believe.

He was a fixture of the city and the franchise for two decades. He’s beloved by both. He might not be a hall of famer or anything to me and you, but to them he is.

[Reggie43]

Below average starter/player who rode the coattails of alltime greats. Yeah thats pretty much a given lol.

[Baller234]

This is such a patronizing way to view a man. As if Russell is some kind of special handicapped little brother that needs you to protect him, some kind of usefully sympathetic mascot for your values and ideals.

I have no idea what the context of Haslem’s comment was and whether it was a criticism of him personally or just some generic off hand comment, but Bill Russell was a grown, fully functional and competent man. You dont need to shield him or put him “above reproach” like a teacher telling the autistic kid who just said the answer to 2+2 is apples that he got it right and did a great job making the answer.

It’s okay if someone else doesnt kiss Bill Russell’s ass. You dont need to insist on it.

It's because there has been a campaign to turn Bill Russell into basketball's Jackie Robinson.

Retiring Jackie's number throughout baseball was a bit much, but I suppose you could make the argument that Jackie's contribution to baseball was bigger than the game itself. Russell has never ever been bigger the game. He was never this holy figure.

[rawimpact]

Ok, well I take that back.

I’m gonna just say that you don’t get it, and I don’t mean it as an insult because I didn’t get it at first a couple of years ago when they kept bringing him back. I kinda get it now I believe.

He was a fixture of the city and the franchise for two decades. He’s beloved by both. He might not be a hall of famer or anything to me and you, but to them he is.

Being a hall of famer is not subjective, like the word 'deserving' you quoted a few posts ago.

It is pretty much a fact that he will not go down in the hall of fame. He obviously had his jersey retired because the heat found it deserving... but again, that's to paul's point, given not earned. The numbers do not objectively add up to someone getting their jersey retired regardless of what the clown calls himself... OG or Mr. 305 that has been Mr. 404 the last decade.

His whole persona is cringy as shit... pretending to be some player-coach on the bench as if he has something to teach to guys like Butler... but at times wants to fight them and has to be separated.

the dude typed out "my first reaction was to choose violence but im gon spare cause i know you aint like that. you're entitled to your opinion my boy!!!"

no your first reaction was to jump on instagram and type this out along with hashtag #OG

[iamgine]

This is the same franchise who retired the jersey a player who didn't even play for them. :lol

They might retire Spo's college jersey eventually. :lol

[FKAri]

People actually have a problem with his Bill Russell comment? Even after knowing the context? Shit. He shoulda thrown in a **** MJ too.

[tpols]

It's because there has been a campaign to turn Bill Russell into basketball's Jackie Robinson.

Retiring Jackie's number throughout baseball was a bit much, but I suppose you could make the argument that Jackie's contribution to baseball was bigger than the game itself. Russell has never ever been bigger the game. He was never this holy figure.


We're talking about Bill Russell? Ehhh... yea he kinda was. And he went through very similar situations as Robinson. Boston didn't desegregate their public schools til like 1980. It's an incredibly racist city up until recently now that it's a yuppy hipster hub.

[L.Kizzle]

He has to be the worst player to ever have his jersey retired.

[Xiao Yao You]

He has to be the worst player to ever have his jersey retired.

https://kutv.com/resources/media2/original/full/1332/center/80/e6f8de30-338f-4452-ac36-1cc096e74f74-eatonrafters.JPG

[tpols]

https://kutv.com/resources/media2/original/full/1332/center/80/e6f8de30-338f-4452-ac36-1cc096e74f74-eatonrafters.JPG

Legend.

He used to be known as The Big Man back in the day.

[Xiao Yao You]

Legend.

He used to be known as The Big Man back in the day.

he certainly was big. Good he was not

[L.Kizzle]

https://kutv.com/resources/media2/original/full/1332/center/80/e6f8de30-338f-4452-ac36-1cc096e74f74-eatonrafters.JPG

All-Star
2x DPOY
4x Block leader
5x All-NBA Defense

[Xiao Yao You]

All-Star
2x DPOY
4x Block leader
5x All-NBA Defense

and yet an awful player if you can even call a guy whose game was holding his long arms up in air hoping the other team was stupid enough to throw the ball at them

[rawimpact]

he certainly was big. Good he was not

He was a defensive player that atleast made the all-star team....

won DPOY twice

[Kblaze8855]

Legend.

He used to be known as The Big Man back in the day.


One of the years he won DPOY he averaged 13/13/7 blocks one month. If he made as many layups as he took away(even ignoring the many many he altered or prevented from being taken) he’d be scoring enough for nobody to argue he’s bad at the sport.

Defense just doesn’t count to some. And to some it only counts selectively. He absolutely wasn’t skilled all around and he knew it. So he did what he could do(largely on the advice of Wilt who told him to stop trying to catch small people and just control what he could). He was definitely a problem in a league that would keep going inside even after you block 7 shots and alter 5 more.



https://www.hostpic.org/images/2401250225230108.jpeg

^
Bad player though.

[SouBeachTalents]

and yet an awful player if you can even call a guy whose game was holding his long arms up in air hoping the other team was stupid enough to throw the ball at them
Still better than Haslem.

[paksat]

I mean he did average 12 ppg one season...

one season he averaged 37 minutes per game and almost managed 1.5 assists per game.. that's gotta be a record right?

[Xiao Yao You]

He was a defensive player that atleast made the all-star team....

won DPOY twice

He made the all star team because they took 3 centers

[Xiao Yao You]

One of the years he won DPOY he averaged 13/13/7 blocks one month. If he made as many layups as he took away(even ignoring the many many he altered or prevented from being taken) he’d be scoring enough for nobody to argue he’s bad at the sport.

Defense just doesn’t count to some. And to some it only counts selectively. He absolutely wasn’t skilled all around and he knew it. So he did what he could do(largely on the advice of Wilt who told him to stop trying to catch small people and just control what he could). He was definitely a problem in a league that would keep going inside even after you block 7 shots and alter 5 more.



https://www.hostpic.org/images/2401250225230108.jpeg

^
Bad player though.

probably never made a lay up. Could barely dunk it. Shot 46% on dunks and short hooks. The Jazz played 4 on 5 at the offensive end. Pretty sure the NBA changed the rules because he'd stand at half court on offense so he could get back and stand in front of the hoop at the defensive end. One of the main reason they were a lot better team after he was forced to retire. Hard to imagine him ever playing in the league if not for The Comedian

[rawimpact]

so you're going to ignore the DPOY awards?
or the leader in blocks 4 years?

refreshing to see someone make the all star team when they're solely defensive-minded.

[Xiao Yao You]

Still better than Haslem.

no. Haslem was a good player on championship teams

[SouBeachTalents]

no. Haslem was a good player on championship teams
Lmao. Some of your takes are straight up 3ball like.

[Xiao Yao You]

so you're going to ignore the DPOY awards?
or the leader in blocks 4 years?

blocks mean little. DPOTY awards were based on blocks or steals in those days before advanced metrics. Watch the film and tell me he was good :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

Lmao. Some of your takes are straight up 3ball like.

Haslem wasn't a good player?

[SouBeachTalents]

Haslem wasn't a good player?
Eaton was an awful player?

[L.Kizzle]

and yet an awful player if you can even call a guy whose game was holding his long arms up in air hoping the other team was stupid enough to throw the ball at them

Might be true, but this awful player has accolades behind him. In the great 80s NBA at that.

[rawimpact]

Might be true, but this awful player has accolades behind him. In the great 80s NBA at that.

We're wasting our time...

Now I see why people consider him a troll...

[L.Kizzle]

He made the all star team because they took 3 centers

You don't have to take 3 centers. One starter, one reserve and 2 wild cards.
But actually 4 centers were selected in 89.
Hakeem
Mark Eaton and Kevin Duckworth.
Kareem replaced the injured Magic

[Xiao Yao You]

Eaton was an awful player?

obviously you've never watched him play. At least you have the stats!

[Xiao Yao You]

You don't have to take 3 centers. One starter, one reserve and 2 wild cards.
But actually 4 centers were selected in 89.
Hakeem
Mark Eaton and Kevin Duckworth.
Kareem replaced the injured Magic

when he made it they had to take 3 centers

[tpols]

One of the years he won DPOY he averaged 13/13/7 blocks one month. If he made as many layups as he took away(even ignoring the many many he altered or prevented from being taken) he’d be scoring enough for nobody to argue he’s bad at the sport.

Defense just doesn’t count to some. And to some it only counts selectively. He absolutely wasn’t skilled all around and he knew it. So he did what he could do(largely on the advice of Wilt who told him to stop trying to catch small people and just control what he could). He was definitely a problem in a league that would keep going inside even after you block 7 shots and alter 5 more.



https://www.hostpic.org/images/2401250225230108.jpeg

^
Bad player though.


I think we can all come to a compromise... he was The Big Bad Man.


https://youtu.be/nqgUG_JVzCs?si=CyPaJSm00i6Wr3aX

[Xiao Yao You]

I think we can all come to a compromise... he was The Big Bad Man.


https://youtu.be/nqgUG_JVzCs?si=CyPaJSm00i6Wr3aX

He was a big man and he was bad as in awful

[L.Kizzle]

when he made it they had to take 3 centers
Unless the rules hanged the following season. 2 centers made it both conferences and in 1986, 2 centers in the East selected.

[Kblaze8855]

obviously you've never watched him play. At least you have the stats!


Well me….not only did I watch him play I specifically watched this game




https://youtu.be/SKOV0u5_0N0?si=JeDar3ijrcAqKnW1


That was a few years before I ever missed a Jordan game living in Chicago.

An outlier to be sure but hardly his greatest. He had a 15/20/12 block game before that.


The guy was a shitty scorer, and because he was in the time where people would give the big man the ball deserving or not he shot like shit. And then he deleted or altered 15 shots a game. Bad skills. Good at what he was there for. He’s aging by then and blocking jumpshots and moving his feet to block reverse layups.

He wasn’t mobile even in his day but he absolutely did more than stand. Even though that was an effective thing to do as well at times.

There were way too many people in the NBA who could contribute virtually nothing to pretend somebody can block 10 shots and get 10 or 12 rebounds and be bad. Plenty of people couldn’t score or protect the basket.

[Kblaze8855]

We're wasting our time...

Now I see why people consider him a troll...


He’s more….lacking in nuance. People are great or ass. Getting him to acknowledge some all time greats were even good is like pulling teeth if it’s someone he doesn’t like.

[tpols]

probably never made a lay up. Could barely dunk it. Shot 46% on dunks and short hooks. The Jazz played 4 on 5 at the offensive end. Pretty sure the NBA changed the rules because he'd stand at half court on offense so he could get back and stand in front of the hoop at the defensive end. One of the main reason they were a lot better team after he was forced to retire. Hard to imagine him ever playing in the league if not for The Comedian

I'm looking at his Wikipedia bio summary and see this:



Eaton was a reserve on his high school basketball team before graduating and working as an auto mechanic. He was discovered by an assistant coach at Cypress College, who persuaded Eaton to enroll at the community college and play basketball. Eaton transferred to play college basketball for the UCLA Bruins, but he was used sparingly. He was drafted in the fourth round of the 1982 NBA draft by the Utah Jazz as a long-term project.

Eaton helped transform the Jazz from a last-place team into a perennial playoff team. When he retired from playing in 1994, he ranked second in the NBA in career blocks behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.



Are you telling me he should've just stayed fixing cars? How can a Gobert fan hate on a fellow all time shot blocker?

[Kblaze8855]

I'm looking at his Wikipedia bio summary and see this:




Are you telling me he should've just stayed fixing cars? How can a Gobert fan hate on a fellow all time shot blocker?



https://youtu.be/7uakwVc86vg?si=MdtzkawPqZzQjoIb


Got the lesson from Wilt. Blocked 3000 shots. Became an all star and DPOY. Number in the rafters.

[Jasper]

never for at when Haslem yelled at butler and said start playing like your daddy instead a cheap little twerp.

That was awesome

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody ever brings it up, but Haslems greatest on the court contribution was locking Dirk up in the 2006 finals. Not my opinion. Dirk talked about it in a long interview he did. Haslem played him perfectly and really made him work harder than he wanted.

[L.Kizzle]

Mark Eaton has the most 10+ blocks in a game of all time with 18.

[Xiao Yao You]

Unless the rules hanged the following season. 2 centers made it both conferences and in 1986, 2 centers in the East selected.

another rule change because of the awfulness of Mark Eaton just backs my opinions even more

[Xiao Yao You]

Well me….not only did I watch him play I specifically watched this game




https://youtu.be/SKOV0u5_0N0?si=JeDar3ijrcAqKnW1


That was a few years before I ever missed a Jordan game living in Chicago.

An outlier to be sure but hardly his greatest. He had a 15/20/12 block game before that.


The guy was a shitty scorer, and because he was in the time where people would give the big man the ball deserving or not he shot like shit. And then he deleted or altered 15 shots a game. Bad skills. Good at what he was there for. He’s aging by then and blocking jumpshots and moving his feet to block reverse layups.

He wasn’t mobile even in his day but he absolutely did more than stand. Even though that was an effective thing to do as well at times.

There were way too many people in the NBA who could contribute virtually nothing to pretend somebody can block 10 shots and get 10 or 12 rebounds and be bad. Plenty of people couldn’t score or protect the basket.

a huge negative at the offensive end no matter how much you value a guy being able to stand near the rim with his arms in the air. He wouldn't be in the league today and I doubt we ever would have heard of him if not for The Comedian. He didn't even play on his college team he was so bad. I always thought they should have brought in Bol after he retired to do the same thing but I think they finally realized the benefits of having 5 guys at the offensive end as well as the defensive end

[Xiao Yao You]

I'm looking at his Wikipedia bio summary and see this:




Are you telling me he should've just stayed fixing cars? How can a Gobert fan hate on a fellow all time shot blocker?

because blocked shots don't mean anything. The Jazz had one of the best scorers in the league. Added Dr. Dunkenstein and they became one of the top scoring duos in the league. Added The Fastest of Them All soon after that so the pieces were already coming together before they added the stiff

[Xiao Yao You]

He’s more….lacking in nuance. People are great or ass. Getting him to acknowledge some all time greats were even good is like pulling teeth if it’s someone he doesn’t like.

not true. I love lots of role players. Guys that could barely put one foot in front of the other suck as far as I'm concerned

[Xiao Yao You]

Mark Eaton has the most 10+ blocks in a game of all time with 18.

and it won't be topped but it doesn't make him suck any less

[Kblaze8855]

another rule change because of the awfulness of Mark Eaton just backs my opinions even more

.



It’s a different feeling. I like going to a city, picking up a paper somewhere and seeing where the key to the game is going to be getting Mark Eaton out on the floor, making him play one-on-one defense. It’s satisfying to me, considering some of the players I have on my team--Adrian Dantley, Darrell Griffith--and they’re more concerned about me than they are about them. Set up on offense to stop me ? It’s hard to believe.”

It’s crazy but it’s true. He wasn’t good enough to play in high school or good enough to play at UCLA, but the Milwaukee Bucks recently designed their entire offense to take Eaton out of the game. The Bucks put their center near midcourt and just kept him there, making Eaton come out and guard him.
“You have to get him away from the basket,” Indiana Coach George Irvine said.

.

[Xiao Yao You]

.
.

with Eaton at half court at the other end so he could get back on D

[Kblaze8855]

because blocked shots don't mean anything. The Jazz had one of the best scorers in the league. Added Dr. Dunkenstein and they became one of the top scoring duos in the league. Added The Fastest of Them All soon after that so the pieces were already coming together before they added the stiff
.



This is not a time for lessons, but the Nets learned one tonight anyway: Never challenge Mark Eaton. The Nets did, repeatedly, and they lost a 22-point lead and finally fell in overtime to the Utah Jazz, 110-104, at Byrne Meadowlands Arena.


Eaton, Utah's 7-foot-4-inch center, stood his ground against an almost continuous assault down the middle by the Nets. Most of the time, he was successful, rejecting eight shots and ultimately forcing the Nets to shoot from the outside - from where they usually missed. In the overtime, they made only 2 of 11 shots.
''Eaton proved tonight that when you take the ball down the middle, he's an absolutely superb defender,'' said Stan Albeck, the Net coach. ''We kept telling our guys to pull up and take the jump shot, but they kept forcing it in and Eaton kept blocking it.''


.

[Baller234]

We're talking about Bill Russell? Ehhh... yea he kinda was. And he went through very similar situations as Robinson. Boston didn't desegregate their public schools til like 1980. It's an incredibly racist city up until recently now that it's a yuppy hipster hub.

Jackie entered the big leagues in 1947, a whole 9 years before Russell entered the NBA. Russell wasn't the first black athlete to crossover into american sports and he wasn't the first black basketball player. Whatever racism he experienced, so did every other black player. That doesn't make him special.

If he contributed anything to the cause then great, but it was a footnote in the grand scheme of things. He really wasn't considered some great civil rights hero, and he is nowhere near the icon that Jackie Robinson is. I don't care how many times they share that photo of him at the Cleveland summit.

He is a pantheon legend and an all time great, but retiring his jersey league wide is wayyyy too much. Reeks of desperation and virtue signaling.

[Kblaze8855]

not true. I love lots of role players. Guys that could barely put one foot in front of the other suck as far as I'm concerned

.


Utah (51-31) ended the season Sunday with the Midwest Division championship and the league's stingiest defense. The Jazz allowed only 99.7 points per game and held opponents to a shooting percentage of .434, which is the lowest in the league since the .425 achieved by the 1973-74 Milwaukee Bucks. Unlike most clubs, Utah seldom double-teams and rarely switches. Instead, the Jazz slant the action on the court to Eaton, funneling opponents down the lane and into his 90-inch wingspan, which is anchored by a pair of size 17 feet. "He blocks up the middle like a tree," says Seattle forward Xavier McDaniel.


"You think of defense, you think of the Jazz," forward Karl Malone says. "You think of why, you think of Mark."

At one point or another, almost every player in the NBA has been Eaton alive. Atlanta's Dominique Wilkins has penetrated and, glimpsing the Biggest E ahead, adjusted his shot. It cleared the backboard. Kevin Johnson of Phoenix has clanged a 14-foot jumper off Eaton's elbow. "He's the only guy in the league who really tries to guard the whole team and not just his man," says Suns center Tom Chambers. "No matter what you do against Utah, you always have to deal with Mark."




.

[Kblaze8855]

and it won't be topped but it doesn't make him suck any less


..



Blocking shots is the only natural talent Eaton has in basketball, and the Jazz feed off it like a gambler off a sure thing.
Says Utah point guard John Stockton, who led the league in steals (3.21 per game), "He makes people so nervous they don't have time to look for an open man. So if you stay in the play, even though you may have been beaten, there's a good chance the pass will be thrown to you."
"If there was a stat called 'Just for being there," Mark would be a 10 every night," says Jazz guard Darrell Griffith. Adds Philadelphia coach Jim Lynam, "Whatever his blocks are, square them. That's how many intimidations he has."

[L.Kizzle]

another rule change because of the awfulness of Mark Eaton just backs my opinions even more

Who do you think the coaches selected first that season, Eaton or Kevin Duckworth m

[L.Kizzle]

and it won't be topped but it doesn't make him suck any less

Is he an elite defender?

[ShawkFactory]

Jackie entered the big leagues in 1947, a whole 9 years before Russell entered the NBA. Russell wasn't the first black athlete to crossover into american sports and he wasn't the first black basketball player. Whatever racism he experienced, so did every other black player. That doesn't make him special.

If he contributed anything to the cause then great, but it was a footnote in the grand scheme of things. He really wasn't considered some great civil rights hero, and he is nowhere near the icon that Jackie Robinson is. I don't care how many times they share that photo of him at the Cleveland summit.

He is a pantheon legend and an all time great, but retiring his jersey league wide is wayyyy too much. Reeks of desperation and virtue signaling.

That's certainly one way to look at it.

[Baller234]

That's certainly one way to look at it.

This reply is sassy as fukk.

[ArbitraryWater]

This reply is sassy as fukk.

lmao true

[ShawkFactory]

This reply is sassy as fukk.

To not be as long winded as I could be here...he was a pioneer of the game of basketball in more ways than one. Not only was he the ultimate winner on paper, but the way he approached the game with his intensity, dedication, teamwork and values within the game are things that had never been seen before. You of course know his record with the championships and all, both in the NBA and in college, and that he was the only successful player-coach ever. There's also clearly things you don't know.

His position and experience was absolutely not the same as any other black player at the time. He was the guy winning. Of course that comes with a level of scrutiny that others in the league, and even his teammates, didn't have the slightest idea of. Particularly in Boston when the entire town was racist and also happened to have just moved on from Bob Cousy.

I'd encourage you to read his memoirs if you have the time. There are plenty of accounts from others as well that may open your eyes. His contributions to the game and respect he garnered were immeasurable.

And a HUGE aspect of it as well...no one as important to the game of basketball has died before.

So yes, chalking his jersey retirement when he died up to "desperate" or "virtue signaling" is...one way to look at it. I would have expounded on this initially if I thought it'd matter.

I bet they'll retire Jordan's too when he passes.

[Baller234]

To not be as long winded as I could be here...he was a pioneer of the game of basketball in more ways than one. Not only was he the ultimate winner on paper, but the way he approached the game with his intensity, dedication, teamwork and values within the game are things that had never been seen before. You of course know his record with the championships and all, both in the NBA and in college, and that he was the only successful player-coach ever. There's also clearly things you don't know.

His position and experience was absolutely not the same as any other black player at the time. He was the guy winning. Of course that comes with a level of scrutiny that others in the league, and even his teammates, didn't have the slightest idea of. Particularly in Boston when the entire town was racist and also happened to have just moved on from Bob Cousy.

I'd encourage you to read his memoirs if you have the time. There are plenty of accounts from others as well that may open your eyes. His contributions to the game and respect he garnered were immeasurable.

And a HUGE aspect of it as well...no one as important to the game of basketball has died before.

So yes, chalking his jersey retirement when he died up to "desperate" or "virtue signaling" is...one way to look at it. I would have expounded on this initially if I thought it'd matter.

I bet they'll retire Jordan's too when he passes.

This is nonsense though. Even if what you're saying is true, this is all just being sentimental for the sake of being sentimental.

They already named the Finals award after him, which was a tremendous honor. Retiring his number league wide for all eternity? Sorry there's no good reason for any one player to be immortalized in this way. Bill Russell is not the god of basketball.

Also, he doesn't own the number 6. Other great players have worn 6. It's insulting to say that the number 6 should always be associated with Russell and only Russell.

[ShawkFactory]

This is nonsense though. Even if what you're saying is true, this is all just being sentimental for the sake of being sentimental.

They already named the Finals award after him, which was a tremendous honor. Retiring his number league wide for all eternity? Sorry there's no good reason for any one player to be immortalized in this way. Bill Russell is not the god of basketball.

Also, he doesn't own the number 6. Other great players have worn 6. It's insulting to say that the number 6 should always be associated with Russell and only Russell.

So there shouldn’t be any sentimentality? I’d argue sentimentality is the biggest aspect of sports there is.

It’s a game after all. Without the emotion and respect for those who performed at the highest level then why would sports even be celebrated like they are?

I’m almost certain that those who have chosen to wear #6 after Russell won’t be insulted at its retirement. Even if you think it should be in theory.

[iamgine]

His contributions to the game...were immeasurable.

How so?

[Baller234]

So there shouldn’t be any sentimentality? I’d argue sentimentality is the biggest aspect of sports there is.

It’s a game after all. Without the emotion and respect for those who performed at the highest level then why would sports even be celebrated like they are?

I’m almost certain that those who have chosen to wear #6 after Russell won’t be insulted at its retirement. Even if you think it should be in theory.

What makes Russell so special and not Dr. J? He didn't also have a huge impact on the sport and the culture at large?

Dude admit it, they are doing this because of social justice bullshit.

[ShawkFactory]

How so?

I explained my position in the post this sentence you quoted is in..

[ShawkFactory]

What makes Russell so special and not Dr. J? He didn't also have a huge impact on the sport and the culture at large?

Dude admit it, they are doing this because of social justice bullshit.

You really have to ask what separates Bill Russell and Dr. J?

[rawimpact]

So there shouldn’t be any sentimentality? I’d argue sentimentality is the biggest aspect of sports there is.

It’s a game after all. Without the emotion and respect for those who performed at the highest level then why would sports even be celebrated like they are?

I’m almost certain that those who have chosen to wear #6 after Russell won’t be insulted at its retirement. Even if you think it should be in theory.

well said

[Baller234]

You really have to ask what separates Bill Russell and Dr. J?

What's the problem? They're both greats who wore #6 and left a huge mark on the game. Doctor J was the preeminent basketball icon for an entire generation that grew up watching him. Why should the #6 be forever attached to Russell?

Russell's number isn't being retired purely for basketball reasons. It's just more social justice bullshit. They need new gods to worship.

[ShawkFactory]

What's the problem? They're both greats who wore #6 and left a huge mark on the game. Doctor J was the preeminent basketball icon for an entire generation that grew up watching him. Why should the #6 be forever attached to Russell?

Russell's number isn't being retired purely for basketball reasons. It's just more social justice bullshit. They need new gods to worship.

There's no "problem". You're just being dense. Whether it's intentional or not I can't tell but it's all the same.

Dense and awfully dramatic.

Listing a couple similarities between people doesn't make them the same. Trump and Biden are both dudes born in the United States around the same time who are involved in politics. I think you might have an issue someone called them the same though.

But Dr. J was cool. And a icon no doubt. He was not a pioneer of the game like Russell was and did not endure the same things. Combining that aspect with Russell has two fistfuls more rings? Yea..not the same.

Also I don't really think anyone is saying his number was retired purely for basketball reasons. The conversation started as I recall started with a comparison to Jackie Robinson, whom Russell dwarfs in actual on-field/court accomplishments. Sometimes enormous athletes can transcend their sport.

[Baller234]

There's no "problem". You're just being dense. Whether it's intentional or not I can't tell but it's all the same.

Dense and awfully dramatic.

Listing a couple similarities between people doesn't make them the same. Trump and Biden are both dudes born in the United States around the same time who are involved in politics. I think you might have an issue someone called them the same though.

But Dr. J was cool. And a icon no doubt. He was not a pioneer of the game like Russell was and did not endure the same things. Combining that aspect with Russell has two fistfuls more rings? Yea..not the same.

Also I don't really think anyone is saying his number was retired purely for basketball reasons. The conversation started as I recall started with a comparison to Jackie Robinson, whom Russell dwarfs in actual on-field/court accomplishments. Sometimes enormous athletes can transcend their sport.

Doctor J is absolutely a pioneer of the game on the same level as Russell. He helped usher in an entirely new style of play. You can't talk about the history of the game without talking about Doctor J and his impact throughout the 70's. Russell just came first.

So basically you're entire argument boils down to:

"Russell's number should be retired league wide because he was really good and experienced racism when he played..."

Uh, sorry but this kind of ridiculous. Russell at no point in history ever transcended the sport. Not as a player OR as a cultural figure. He is NOT Jackie Robinson.

I will reiterate again since you keep beating around the bush. This is just more social justice bullshit.

[ShawkFactory]

Doctor J is absolutely a pioneer of the game on the same level as Russell. He helped usher in an entirely new style of play. You can't talk about the history of the game without talking about Doctor J and his impact throughout the 70's. Russell just came first.

So basically you're entire argument boils down to:

"Russell's number should be retired league wide because he was really good and experienced racism when he played..."

Uh, sorry but this kind of ridiculous. Russell at no point in history ever transcended the sport. Not as a player OR as a cultural figure. He is NOT Jackie Robinson.

I will reiterate again since you keep beating around the bush. This is just more social justice bullshit.

If that is truly your stance then so was Jackie Robinson's number retirement.

You were just either too young when his number retired or you didn't have the term woke to categorize your thoughts into.


Doctor J is absolutely a pioneer of the game on the same level as Russell

No he was not. He pioneered a style. Not the game itselt.

[Baller234]

If that is truly your stance then so was Jackie Robinson's number retirement.

You were just either too young when his number retired or you didn't have the term woke to categorize your thoughts into.

It was a one of a kind honor no doubt. I am honestly indifferent to it. Is it totally necessary? Not at all. A worthy honor and tribute? Absolutely. So I can take it or leave it. If there is any one person you could make the case for is deserving of such an honor, it would be Jackie. When kids go to the stadium and see the #42, their parents can tell them the story of Jackie Robinson and how he broke the color barrier. It was an important moment in American history that should be celebrated.

Is Bill Russell really on this same level?? Like... has he ever been?? You're telling me Russell's story was that important?? Is he a person to be admired? Yes. Was he the only outspoken black athlete? No. In the grand scheme of things he was a footnote in the larger story. There is no seminal moment in history that's associated with Bill Russell.

Engaging in revisionist history and trying to elevate him to Jackie's level... that is what makes it woke. Pretending he is famous for anything other than basketball... that is what makes it woke.