What's a better starting hand (poker analogy)

[3ba11]

.

A) a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg and is trash until his mid-20's (Pippen)

B) a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away (Wiggins)


both guys needed goat-scoring teammates and systems to perform at all-star level.

in addition to Wiggins, the #1 pick Kyrie was a better starting hand (all-star MVP in 2014) and top 10 player Love was also a better starting hand in 2014 (ready-made superstar)..

heck, Larry Hughes was 22/5/5 first-team defender in 2005, which is better starting hand than 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg.. heck, Pippen wasn't better than all-stars Mo Williams, Jamison or Zydrunas until 1991.

[warriorfan]

.

A) a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg and is trash until his mid-20's (Pippen)

B) a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away (Wiggins)


both guys needed goat-scoring teammates and systems to perform at all-star level.

in addition to Wiggins, #1 pick Kyrie was a better starting hand and top 10 player Love was also a better starting hand in 2014.

In 2014 the year before joining with LeBron as his third option. Kevin Love posted 26.5/12.5/4.5/TS% 59.1

The only other two players to ever achieve this is

Prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Prime Giannis Antetokounmpo

[Jasper]

grouping Wiggins in with Pip is a joke ...

Wiggins should never have been an all-star as well as MVP(.)

[3ba11]

Wiggins should never have been an all-star





20 ppg with good defense on a winning team is normally all-star caliber

So the only thing Wiggins was lacking in Minnesota was the winning team part.

Btw, the winning system made Wiggins an all-star but he always had the stats, whereas Pippen needed the system just to have viable stats, let alone be an all-star - Pippen was nothing outside the system that he grew up in, while at least Wiggins was still a 24 ppg player outside of a winning system.




grouping Wiggins in with Pip is a joke ...

Wiggins should never have been an all-star as well as MVP(.)


If you were a GM and looking to find a sidekick for Jordan, would you prefer a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, or would you prefer a prodigal athlete and #1 pick at 19 years old that averaged 17-24 right away?.... (and his great athleticism could develop into a great defender under MJ's tutelege just like Pippen did)

We all saw Wiggins have a signature lockdown performance as the primary defender in the 22' Finals against Tatum, which Pippen never had - Tatum was red-hot until he ran into Wiggins and the muting of Tatum is the main reason the Warriors won that series.. So the capacity for great defense was always there with Wiggins and MJ would certainly bring it out just like he did with Pippen.. Pippen was lucky to land alongside the DPOY/MVP to influence his 2-way development.

[Charlie Sheen]

.

A) a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg and is trash until his mid-20's (Pippen)

B) a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away (Wiggins)


both guys needed goat-scoring teammates and systems to perform at all-star level.

in addition to Wiggins, the #1 pick Kyrie was a better starting hand (all-star MVP in 2014) and top 10 player Love was also a better starting hand in 2014 (ready-made superstar)..

heck, Larry Hughes was 22/5/5 first-team defender in 2005, which is better starting hand than 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg.. heck, Pippen wasn't better than all-stars Mo Williams, Jamison or Zydrunas until 1991.

Considering how it worked out for Wiggins in Minnesota... you could say pocket suited is why bad poker players are in way too many hands chasing a flush and losing

[3ba11]

Considering how it worked out for Wiggins in Minnesota... you could say pocket suited is why bad poker players are in way too many hands chasing a flush and losing


The point is that 19-year old Wiggins was far superior to 23-year old rookie Pippen and considered far more talented, so MJ would develop Wiggins 20 ppg to far greater heights than he developed Pippen's 8 ppg.

And both Wiggins/Pippen are great athletes that Jordan would develop into all-defenders.. Even without MJ's mentorship, we saw Wiggins natural defensive talent come out when he had a signature lockdown performance as the primary defender in the 22' Finals, which Pippen never had.. So imagine if Wiggins had MJ from Day 1 to show him how to get the most out of his talent.. He would've been far better than Pippen ever was because he started with more raw talent.

[Hey Yo]

What was the most wins and playoff wins did Wiggins lead his team to in a single season?

[SATAN]

OP is lame.

[Overdrive]

.

A) a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg and is trash until his mid-20's (Pippen)

B) a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away (Wiggins)


both guys needed goat-scoring teammates and systems to perform at all-star level.

in addition to Wiggins, the #1 pick Kyrie was a better starting hand (all-star MVP in 2014) and top 10 player Love was also a better starting hand in 2014 (ready-made superstar)..

heck, Larry Hughes was 22/5/5 first-team defender in 2005, which is better starting hand than 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg.. heck, Pippen wasn't better than all-stars Mo Williams, Jamison or Zydrunas until 1991.

Where exactly is the anology?

[3ba11]

What was the most wins and playoff wins did Wiggins lead his team to in a single season?


Pippen is a litmus test for how MJ develops long, athletic wings because Pippen was the bottom of the barrel as a 24-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg - so Wiggins was far more talented at 19 than Pippen was at 24 and therefore had more capacity to develop to greater heights than Pippen ever did.. This is intuitive - if a player is more talented, than he has more capacity/potential to develop into an even greater player given the right circumstance and opportunity to reach that potential.. So given Wiggins' superior talent, MJ would've won earlier and easier with Wiggins since Wiggins was getting 17-24 right away as a 19-year old number 1 pick, instead of waiting 5 years for 27-year old Pippen to finally scrape 20 ppg.

[tpols]

We saw what Wiggins was capable of in a high level system. Going from the shitty twolves to Golden State he put up as good a playoff run as Pippen ever did, was the 2nd scoring option on a championship team, and totally locked down Tatum. His parents were Olympic athletes and his measurables are the same as Pippens (or better). The ONLY thing Wiggins ever lacked was ambition. So there's no doubt in my mind MJ couldn't have whooped his ass into shape like he did Pippen.

[Hey Yo]

Pippen is a litmus test for how MJ develops long, athletic wings because Pippen was the bottom of the barrel as a 24-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg - so Wiggins was far more talented at 19 than Pippen was at 24 and therefore had more capacity to develop to greater heights than Pippen ever did.. This is intuitive - if a player is more talented, than he has more capacity/potential to develop into an even greater player given the right circumstance and opportunity to reach that potential.. So given Wiggins' superior talent, MJ would've won earlier and easier with Wiggins since Wiggins was getting 17-24 right away as a 19-year old number 1 pick, instead of waiting 5 years for 27-year old Pippen to finally scrape 20 ppg.

How many All-NBA and All Defensive teams did Wiggins make? Surely he must have more than Pippen since he avg. more PPG than Pip, no?? Wiggins ever finish top 3 in MVP voting?

[ShawkFactory]

We saw what Wiggins was capable of in a high level system. Going from the shitty twolves to Golden State he put up as good a playoff run as Pippen ever did, was the 2nd scoring option on a championship team, and totally locked down Tatum. His parents were Olympic athletes and his measurables are the same as Pippens (or better). The ONLY thing Wiggins ever lacked was ambition. So there's no doubt in my mind MJ couldn't have whooped his ass into shape like he did Pippen.

Wiggins’s issue as well is that he just wasn’t good enough to be a legit #1. I don’t know if it was the system so much as alleviating the pressure of carrying a scoring load. It allowed him to focus on playing winning basketball instead of trying to score 25 every night.

The “as good of a playoff run as Pippen ever did” is just patently false and complete nonsense.

[Charlie Sheen]

The point is that 19-year old Wiggins was far superior to 23-year old rookie Pippen and considered far more talented, so MJ would develop Wiggins 20 ppg to far greater heights than he developed Pippen's 8 ppg.

And both Wiggins/Pippen are great athletes that Jordan would develop into all-defenders.. Even without MJ's mentorship, we saw Wiggins natural defensive talent come out when he had a signature lockdown performance as the primary defender in the 22' Finals, which Pippen never had.. So imagine if Wiggins had MJ from Day 1 to show him how to get the most out of his talent.. He would've been far better than Pippen ever was because he started with more raw talent.

My point was that you are overvaluing the #1 pick status. I do not really care much about the rest of the stuff you wrote

[tpols]

Wiggins’s issue as well is that he just wasn’t good enough to be a legit #1. I don’t know if it was the system so much as alleviating the pressure of carrying a scoring load. It allowed him to focus on playing winning basketball instead of trying to score 25 every night.

The “as good of a playoff run as Pippen ever did” is just patently false and complete nonsense.

It's not nonsense at all. In the 2022 playoffs Wiggins put up identical Pippen offensive production and he was playing straight jacket lock down defense on the opposing teams best player. Outside of 1991, Pippen never even had a playoff run that matched 2022 Wiggins.

[ShawkFactory]

It's not nonsense at all. In the 2022 playoffs Wiggins put up identical Pippen offensive production and he was playing straight jacket lock down defense on the opposing teams best player. Outside of 1991, Pippen never even had a playoff run that matched 2022 Wiggins.

Just a factually false statement. Looking at the raw and advanced numbers (which is what we're going to go off of here because you watched Wiggins and didn't watch Pippen), Wiggins' 2022 would have been literally the worst production of Pippens runs between 90-98. By a decent margin in several of them.

And this is of course excluding the always selectively omitted era difference.

[tpols]

Just a factually false statement. Looking at the raw and advanced numbers (which is what we're going to go off of here because you watched Wiggins and didn't watch Pippen), Wiggins' 2022 would have been literally the worst production of Pippens runs between 90-98. By a decent margin in several of them.

And this is of course excluding the always selectively omitted era difference.

Wiggins averaged 18/9/2 on 45% shooting while totally locking Tatum up and holding him to one of the worst series of his career.

Those are Pippen numbers on average and defense but with better efficiency. I suggest you look into what Pippen shot '96-'98, '93, and '99. You might learn a thing or two.

Don't get mad at the facts. They are what they are.

[ShawkFactory]

Wiggins averaged 18/9/2 on 45% shooting while totally locking Tatum up and holding him to one of the worst series of his career.

Those are Pippen numbers on average and defense but with better efficiency. I suggest you look into what Pippen shot '96-'98, '93, and '99. You might learn a thing or two.

Don't get mad at the facts. They are what they are.

Facts :roll:

We’re now boiling equal Pippen production down to selectively choosing a couple of years where Wiggins’s FG% in 2022 was marginally better than?!

This is an intense level of trolling. Even for you.

[tpols]

selectively choosing a couple of years


A couple of years? :roll:

'93, '96, '97, and '98 are 4/6 of pippens prime years. I didn't even mention the '94 "sit out game" choke job or 1992 where Pippen was factually outplayed by the X-man and almost allowed the Knicks to win when they were huge underdogs.

You need do to more research pal.

[ShawkFactory]

A couple of years? :roll:

'93, '96, '97, and '98 are 4/6 of pippens prime years. I didn't even mention the '94 "sit out game" choke job or 1992 where Pippen was factually outplayed by the X-man and almost allowed the Knicks to win when they were huge underdogs.

You need do to more research pal.

So we've gone from Wiggins putting up a playoff run as good as Pippen ever has to discussing FG% in some years and mentioning random series or plays in others. You don't realize it but you've already lost.

This while still hilariously ignoring the era difference in FG% in general. I know for a fact that shit wouldn't fly with you were your agenda in favor of someone from that era :lol

Quite comical, so thank you for that.

Over the years I've watched almost all of those games btw. At least ones after the first round.

[tpols]

So we've gone from Wiggins putting up a playoff run as good as Pippen ever has to discussing FG% in some years


We're not discussing "FG% in some years"... I gave you Pippens production in his prime years and you accused me us of cherrypicking lmao.

The fact of the matter is Andrew Wiggins at his best was a Pippen level talent (honestly even higher ) and player BUT he was initially drafted to a dogshit franchise which stunted his growth. While Pippen was drafted to the... literally... GOAT situation.

[ShawkFactory]

We're not discussing "FG% in some years"... I gave you Pippens production in his prime years and you accused me us of cherrypicking lmao.

The fact of the matter is Andrew Wiggins at his best was a Pippen level talent (honestly even higher ) and player BUT he was initially drafted to a dogshit franchise which stunted his growth. While Pippen was drafted to the... literally... GOAT situation.

No you didn't. You gave his FG% in some of the years. That is quite literally the definition of cherrypicking :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

We're not discussing "FG% in some years"... I gave you Pippens production in his prime years and you accused me us of cherrypicking lmao.

The fact of the matter is Andrew Wiggins at his best was a Pippen level talent (honestly even higher ) and player BUT he was initially drafted to a dogshit franchise which stunted his growth. While Pippen was drafted to the... literally... GOAT situation.
Absolutely ridiculous. Wiggins isn't even close to the passer/playmaker Pippen was, and outside of literally one playoff run, not even close to the rebounder either.

[tpols]

Absolutely ridiculous. Wiggins isn't even close to the passer/playmaker Pippen was, and outside of literally one playoff run, not even close to the rebounder either.

That's literally exactly what I said.

"Outside of literally one playoff run."

Yes... that is the playoff run I mentioned.

The one where Wiggins averaged 18/9 on good shooting while playing lockdown defense. That's Scottie Pippen level impact. (minus the good shooting)

The point is neither of these guys were MVP talents and it took huge carry jobs from MJ and Curry to win titles.

[ShawkFactory]

I wonder what the response would be if we discussed prime Reggie Miller going 23/3/3 on 45% during his prime in the playoffs and Donovan Mitchell going 30/6/5 on 46% so far in his. Could be interesting.

[Full Court]

Wiggins averaged 18/9/2 on 45% shooting while totally locking Tatum up and holding him to one of the worst series of his career.

Those are Pippen numbers on average and defense but with better efficiency. I suggest you look into what Pippen shot '96-'98, '93, and '99. You might learn a thing or two.

Don't get mad at the facts. They are what they are.

Efficiency in general is higher than it was in the 90s due to it being much easier to score. I don't think it's a fair comparison to put Pippen's efficiency against Wiggins'.

[tpols]

Scottie Pippen didn't have Reggies jumper. He'd probably be even worse in today's league where defense isn't prioritized and shooting is at a premium. That isn't even remotely a good argument. But you guys can pivot when you know you've taken an L. It's okay. The carousel will keep on spinning. :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Reggie from 96-98: 20/3/2 on 41%
Klay from 15-18: 20/4/2 on 44%

Interesting.

[ShawkFactory]

Efficiency in general is higher than it was in the 90s due to it being much easier to score. I don't think it's a fair comparison to put Pippen's efficiency against Wiggins'.

Hmmmm....

[tpols]

How did we go from Wiggins matching Pippens best year to Reggie (factually) being better than Pippen in the playoffs to Klays 15ppg 35% shooting ass?

:roll:

I wouldnt be surprised if Elden Campbell and Jamal Mashburn were the next guys to be brought up. You fellas are running a new carousel with each argument lost.

[ShawkFactory]

How did we go from Wiggins matching Pippens best year to Reggie (factually) being better than Pippen in the playoffs to Klays 15ppg 35% shooting ass?
:roll:

I wouldnt be surprised if Elden Campbell and Jamal Mashburn were the next guys to be brought up. You fellas are running a new carousel with each argument lost.

I've posted nothing but facts.

[3ba11]

How many All-NBA and All Defensive teams did Wiggins make? Surely he must have more than Pippen since he avg. more PPG than Pip, no?? Wiggins ever finish top 3 in MVP voting?


Before Pippen won titles, he had the same number of All-NBA as Wiggins - zero.. Pippen's caliber was Iguodala or Wiggins, but the winning spotlight inflated him to media accolade and all-time status.. Otherwise, his pedestrian "wiggins" stats and transition player type (mainly a dunker) would be just another guy with okay stats, kind of like Wiggins was.. There have always been tons of guys like that.

Pippen was just lucky that his pedestrian stats and caliber was carried to 6 titles, aka 19 on 42% in 6 Finals and 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, so it was a low bar to find guys that could match Pippen.. And Kukoc led Pippen in 4th quarter scoring for the entire 98' Playoffs, so it took nothing to supplant Pippen as 2nd option - he was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer, otherwise he wasn't a 2nd option because 2nd options still had to be go-to players, which Pippen was not.

[3ba11]

Facts :roll:

We’re now boiling equal Pippen production down to selectively choosing a couple of years where Wiggins’s FG% in 2022 was marginally better than?!

This is an intense level of trolling. Even for you.


Advanced box score stats (PER, BPM, etc) for cast members (non-1st options) are always correlated with system and the how a team uses it's supplementary pieces, but the 4th quarter, clutch and impact stats usually paint the right picture (below):



PLAYOFFS

22' Wiggins (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203952/traditional?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=0)....... 6.4 plus-minus..... 9.3 net rating
97' Pippen (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/937/advanced?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=0)'........ 6.4 plus-minus..... 8.6 net rating
98' Pippen (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/937/advanced?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=0)'........ 5.6 plus-minus..... 8.1 net rating


FINALS

22' Wiggins (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203952/traditional?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)....... 4.8 plus-minus..... 7.1 net rating
97' Pippen (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/937/advanced?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)'........ 1.7 plus-minus..... 1.1 net rating
98' Pippen (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/937/advanced?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)'........ 4.7 plus-minus..... 7.0 net rating


4th Quarter Finals

22' Wiggins (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203952/traditional?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)..... 5.0 on 61%
98' Pippen (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/937/traditional?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=0&Period=4)'...... 2.8 on 31%
97' Pippen (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/937/traditional?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=0&Period=4)'...... 5.5 on 40%


Clutch-time Finals

98' Pippen'...... 1.6 on 25%
97' Pippen'...... 1.0 on 12%
22' Wiggins..... 1.0 on 100%


When did Pippen ever shoot 60% in 4th quarters or 100% in clutch-time?

And how could a team win a close series with a player bricking every shot in the 4th and clutch-time?

Wiggins was the kind of go-to player and clutch shot-maker that Pippen never was - this is shown in the 4th quarter and clutch-time efficiency, which translates to higher impact numbers like plus-minus and net rating..

Wiggins was a 19-year old rookie that averaged 17-24 right away (#1 pick), while Pippen was a 23-year old rookie and 8 ppg, so Wiggins was the far superior talent and therefore had more for MJ to develop - if MJ developed Pippen into an all-time player, than he would've done it even more so with Wiggins.. And remember that Wiggins was a 24 ppg player outside the system, while Pippen was literally nothing outside the system and worse than prime Jeff Green..

In addition to greater raw talent and go-to offense that didn't require system, Wiggins had a signature lockdown performance as the primary defender vs Tatum, which Pippen never had.

Ultimately, Pippen is a litmus test for how MJ develops long, athletic wings because Pippen was the bottom of the barrel as a 24-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg - so Wiggins was far more talented and therefore had more capacity to develop to greater heights than Pippen ever did.. So given Wiggins' superior talent, MJ would've won earlier and easier with Wiggins since Wiggins was getting 17-24 right away as a 19-year old number 1 pick, instead of waiting 5 years for 27-year old Pippen to finally scrape 20 ppg.

Btw, in addition to Pippen's 97' and 98' Finals falling short of 22' Wiggins based on raw numbers, 4th quarter, clutch, or impact stats (plus/minus & net rating), his 96' Finals was the worst of his career (15.7 on 34%), so that's 3 runs that are equal or worse than 22' Wiggins