Do you agree with ISH's 2007/2008 player rankings?

[Im Still Ballin]

Title.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?89941-*ISH-07-08-Player-Rankings*&p=1916771&viewfull=1#post1916771




ok i just finished, here's the entire 20...

1: kobe- 1159
2: lebron- 1127
3: paul- 1066
4: duncan- 1041
5: garnett- 946
6: howard- 825
7: deron- 780
8: amare- 691
9: dirk- 639
10: nash- 517
11: yao- 480
12: pierce- 465
13: iverson- 366
14: t-mac- 361
15: wade- 338
16: melo- 329
17: ginobili- 270
18: bosh- 260
19: davis- 216
20: parker- 91

----------------------------------

21: boozer- 90
22: roy- 82
23/24: butler- 80
23/24: west- 80
25: billups- 67

[90sgoat]

Duncan should be 1st.

Lebron should not be top 5.

Wade should be top 10.

Ginobili should be above Melo and T-Mac.

[iamgine]

1 LeBron James
2 Chris Paul
3 Kobe Bryant
4 Manu Ginobili
5 Dirk Nowitzki
6 Kevin Garnett
7 Chauncey Billups
8 Tim Duncan
9 Amare Stoudemire
10 Chris Bosh
11 Paul Pierce
12 Dwyane Wade
13 Caron Butler
14 Tracy McGrady
15 Andre Iguodala
16 Baron Davis
17 Yao Ming
18 Allen Iverson
19 Deron Williams
20 Jason Richardson
21 Brandon Roy
22 Metta World Peace
23 Carlos Boozer
24 Josh Smith
25 Steve Nash

[Im Still Ballin]

Duncan should be 1st.

Lebron should not be top 5.

Wade should be top 10.

Ginobili should be above Melo and T-Mac.

Dwyane was marked down because of injuries I believe.

[ShawkFactory]

It's crazy what that 2011 run did for Dirk. This kind of helps prove my thoughts on him in that no one really considered him to be of the elite class like a Kobe, Bron, or Duncan. But many have him top 20 or so all time.

Funny how that works.

[90sgoat]

It's crazy what that 2011 run did for Dirk. This kind of helps prove my thoughts on him in that no one really considered him to be of the elite class like a Kobe, Bron, or Duncan. But many have him top 20 or so all time.

Funny how that works.

I still don't think that highly of Dirk.

I consider him overall the same caliber of player as KG, who is also overrated. I have both Barkley and Malone above both of them.

Dirk took a long time to add a post game, add defense.

That 2011 ring was also Kidd's ring. People really underestimate how good Jason Kidd was. He dragged bums to the finals with Nets. He made Melo win a playoff series.

Not to say Dirk wasn't great, he's just not as good as Malone and Barkley.

[ArbitraryWater]

I still don't think that highly of Dirk.

I consider him overall the same caliber of player as KG, who is also overrated. I have both Barkley and Malone above both of them.

Dirk took a long time to add a post game, add defense.

That 2011 ring was also Kidd's ring. People really underestimate how good Jason Kidd was. He dragged bums to the finals with Nets. He made Melo win a playoff series.

Not to say Dirk wasn't great, he's just not as good as Malone and Barkley.


made Melo win a playoff series?

Wtf are you talking about?



Anyway, surprising to see Dirk below Amare and Deron.. boy was he underrated.

But id bet after the 09 season theyd have him top 5.

[90sgoat]

made Melo win a playoff series?

Wtf are you talking about?


*in the East.

Because Melo is one of the worst playoff performers of all time.

[FKAri]

It's crazy what that 2011 run did for Dirk. This kind of helps prove my thoughts on him in that no one really considered him to be of the elite class like a Kobe, Bron, or Duncan. But many have him top 20 or so all time.

Funny how that works.

-The losses in 06 and 07 were still fresh and had given him(unfairly imo) the choker label
-People were still unconvinced that his style of play could translate to success as the lead dog
-His 2011 run was historically great

[East River Livn']

1 LeBron James
2 Chris Paul
3 Kobe Bryant
4 Manu Ginobili
5 Dirk Nowitzki
6 Kevin Garnett
7 Chauncey Billups
8 Tim Duncan
9 Amare Stoudemire
10 Chris Bosh
11 Paul Pierce
12 Dwyane Wade
13 Caron Butler
14 Tracy McGrady
15 Andre Iguodala
16 Baron Davis
17 Yao Ming
18 Allen Iverson
19 Deron Williams
20 Jason Richardson
21 Brandon Roy
22 Metta World Peace
23 Carlos Boozer
24 Josh Smith
25 Steve Nash

Chauncey, B Diddy, Caron Butler and Iggy over 2008 Deron Williams? LMAO c'mon now

[dankok8]

KG should be over Duncan and Dirk higher but solid list.

[Phoenix]

I'm assuming Wade was that low due to injury that year.

[elementally morale]

There were quite a lot of posters here back then, at around 60 people made a list. Conversation was civil and basketball related. Trolling was rare. That's my main takeaway.

It is a myth that Kobe was NOT thought of as the best player at the time. Duncan and Garnett WAS a serious debate for many years. Interesting to see how perception changes with winning. Also, people didn't ruin the vote. If you had a similar process today many people would ruin it by having LeBron at #15 or leaving Kobe out of the top 20. And not just on ISH would people do that but society does that in general. Lots of polarization has happened since then regardless of the subject.

[3ba11]

.
The numbers back up OP's rankings at that time because Kobe always played much better than Lebron when they faced the same playoff opponent - he did so 5/5 times around that time period:



08' Kobe vs Spurs'............... 29 on 53%
07' Lebron vs Spurs............. 22 on 36%

08' Kobe vs Celtics'.............. 26 on 41%
08' Lebron vs Celtics............ 26 on 36%

2010 Kobe vs Celtics'........... 29 on 41%
2010 Lebron vs Celtics......... 26 on 44%

2011 Kobe vs Mavs'............. 22 on 40%
2011 Lebron vs Mavs........... 18 on 47%

09' Kobe vs Magic'............... beat Magic
09' Lebron vs Magic............. lost to Magic*

* as favorite due to excessive ball-dominant stats and goat choke in Game 4 (7 TO in fourth & OT), and decided to guard Lee instead of Hedo


^^^ Kobe is clearly superior against the exact same playoff opponent 5/5 times, so this confirms his superiority over prime Lebron

[elementally morale]

This was my vote back then:


Based on 2007-2008 and assuming everyone is healthy. Selections based on (not merely statistical) output, not potential or past accolades.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Tim Duncan
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Deron Williams
6. Chris Paul
7. Yao Ming
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Amare Stoudemire
10. Dwight Howard
11. Steve Nash
12. Manu Ginobili
13. Tracy McGrady
14. Dwyane Wade
15. Chris Bosh
16. Paul Pierce
17. Baron Davis
18. David West
19. Allen Iverson
20. Chauncey Billups

[Phoenix]

There were quite a lot of posters here back then, at around 60 people made a list. Conversation was civil and basketball related. Trolling was rare. That's my main takeaway.

It is a myth that Kobe was NOT thought of as the best player at the time. Duncan and Garnett WAS a serious debate for many years. Interesting to see how perception changes with winning. Also, people didn't ruin the vote. If you had a similar process today many people would ruin it by having LeBron at #15 or leaving Kobe out of the top 20. And not just on ISH would people do that but society does that in general. Lots of polarization has happened since then regardless of the subject.

Basically, basketball discourse has gone to complete shit in the last 15 years or so.

[ShawkFactory]

There were quite a lot of posters here back then, at around 60 people made a list. Conversation was civil and basketball related. Trolling was rare. That's my main takeaway.

It is a myth that Kobe was NOT thought of as the best player at the time. Duncan and Garnett WAS a serious debate for many years. Interesting to see how perception changes with winning. Also, people didn't ruin the vote. If you had a similar process today many people would ruin it by having LeBron at #15 or leaving Kobe out of the top 20. And not just on ISH would people do that but society does that in general. Lots of polarization has happened since then regardless of the subject.

I remember that as well. People like to say Lebron or CP3 or Duncan but from 06-08 there was a fairly universal acceptance that Kobe was the guy. Lebron became a serious argument in 09..and since then the discourse has gotten weird from both sides.

[elementally morale]

Basically, basketball discourse has gone to complete shit in the last 15 years or so.

It is the case with a discourse of any kind. I was watching some presidential campaign debates from the 60s the other day. Black and white. It was amazing to see there was actual conversation. It was still okay in the 90s and less so but bearable until like 2010. Social media really changed how we interact.

I was watching the fist couple of seasons of Survivor. It's amazing to see what we as people valued back in 2000. It is not nostalgia the world was quite a bit different. Was it better? I think it's getting down to what you are getting used to and in what environment you were growing up. The difference however is real.

[Phoenix]

It is the case with a discourse of any kind. I was watching some presidential campaign debates from the 60s the other day. Black and white. It was amazing to see there was actual conversation. It was still okay in the 90s and less so but bearable until like 2010. Social media really changed how we interact.

I was watching the fist couple of seasons of Survivor. It's amazing to see what we as people valued back in 2000. It is not nostalgia the world was quite a bit different. Was it better? I think it's getting down to what you are getting used to and in what environment you were growing up. The difference however is real.

Agreed on all accounts. Social media has done a number on society.

[elementally morale]

Agreed on all accounts. Social media has done a number on society.

Imagine something like this being broadcast today on national television.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QazmVHAO0os


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7IJ7npTYrU

[Full Court]

Duncan should be 1st.

Lebron should not be top 5.

Wade should be top 10.

Ginobili should be above Melo and T-Mac.

^First reply absolutely nailed it.

[1987_Lakers]

^First reply absolutely nailed it.

It was actually an atrocious post.

Kobe was at the peak of his powers in '08, won his first MVP, and had his best defensive season that year since like 2002. He for sure deserves #1 for 2008.

I can see why people left Wade off the top 10, after winning a title in '06, he dealt with lots of injuries the following two seasons. He only played like 50 games in 2008 and when he did play, he had his worst season since his rookie year.

[Im so nba'd out]

No way Gilbert didn’t make that list back then. He averaged like 29 around that time period. I vividly remember getting in arguments about him being the best PG in the entire league while playing nba live 08 with one of my boys

[1987_Lakers]

Fultznation hyping up LeBron's teammates? Are my eyes deceiving me?


too many people sleep on zydrunas ilgauskus

dude is 7'3, has a sweet midrange jumper, and is arguably the best offensive rebounder in the game. dude manages to impress despite having the worst offensive coach/system in the league. imagine if his coach knew how to use him.

ur tellin me you'd take a swingman like caron butler or joe johnson over that?

:rolleyes:

:eek:

[Im Still Ballin]

Fultznation hyping up LeBron's teammates? Are my eyes deceiving me?



:eek:

Uh-oh. Caught out!

[Axe]

Fultznation hyping up LeBron's teammates? Are my eyes deceiving me?



:eek:
Damn, didn't know that chrissy has been here for more than 15 years now. :ohwell:

[iamgine]

Chauncey, B Diddy, Caron Butler and Iggy over 2008 Deron Williams? LMAO c'mon now

Uh yes? If people wanna argue B Diddy, Butler and Iggy fine. They're not that far apart. Chauncey however, was A LOT better than Deron.

[1987_Lakers]

Uh yes? If people wanna argue B Diddy, Butler and Iggy fine. They're not that far apart. Chauncey however, was A LOT better than Deron.

I found this cool thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?131944-Deron-williams-is-not-the-2nd-best-point-guard

[iamgine]

I found this cool thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?131944-Deron-williams-is-not-the-2nd-best-point-guard

That's 2009 right? I'd agree Deron was better in 2009 but that's just because Chauncey fell off hard after 2008 season.

[1987_Lakers]

That's 2009 right? I'd agree Deron was better in 2009 but that's just because Chauncey fell off hard after 2008 season.

Huh? Chauncey was an All-star in '09 and probably had his best postseason that year too.

[iamgine]

Huh? Chauncey was an All-star in '09 and probably had his best postseason that year too.
09 Regular season he fell off hard. Playoff he was great.

[1987_Lakers]

09 Regular season he fell off hard. Playoff he was great.

Not really, he put up identical numbers in '09 compared to the year prior. His stats were more impressive in 2008 if you factor in that he played on a Detroit team that played at an extremely slow pace, but I believe it cancels out if you take into consideration that Billups played with more offensive talent in Denver.

[iamgine]

Not really, he put up identical numbers in '09 compared to the year prior. His stats were more impressive in 2008 if you factor in that he played on a Detroit team that played at an extremely slow pace, but I believe it cancels out if you take into consideration that Billups played with more offensive talent in Denver.

I disagree. Identical numbers does not equal identical impact.