Wages will never keep up with Inflation = Slow economic death for the middle class

[Doomsday Dallas]

Median Income Now = $39,400
Median Income in the year 2000 = $31,600
about a 25% increase (if we are rounding up)

Value of Dollar in the year 2000 ($1.00) compared to the value of a Dollar Now = $1.77
about a 75% increase (if we are rounding down)

To summarize, wages are up 25% in the last 23 years.... Inflation is up 75% in the last 23 years.
A person who made $30,000 in the year 2000 now has to make $52,500 just to keep up with inflation.
A person who made $50,000 in the year 2000 now has to make $88,500 just to keep up with inflation and afford the same $hit he could 23 years ago.

Some people like to argue that the quality of life is getting better in this country... It's not... not for the middle class, and definitely not for the average American.
The middle class has gotten their ass kicked the past 23 years. Everyone has, it's just that rich people tend to not notice the difference.

[SATAN]

If only the middle class sold their souls :confusedshrug:

[Doomsday Dallas]

If only the middle class sold their souls :confusedshrug:

Many Women are doing just that with OnlyFans.

[Doomsday Dallas]

Here are my sources:

https://www.usdebtclock.org/#

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/


very easy to see the American People are losing...

inflation is going up about 3% annually, wages are going up 1% every year.

[Bill Gates]

It's so much more complex than just comparing these two numbers. The average price of a television may have gone up 500% since the 2000. But a similar television from the year 2000 would be significantly cheaper today. Meaning that people today can more easily obtain a television even though the inflation of that item is very high.

And you have to look at only necessities.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BllpCugCEAATxLe.jpg

While certain items are up right now in the short term, over time society has figured out how to feed itself for much cheaper and faster. We are a nation of gluttons.

And from a quality of life stand point, that is almost impossible to quantify in numbers. But today we have a large portion of the country who is working in their pajamas. This would not be the case in the year 2000.

[Bill Gates]

The wealth gap is getting exceeding larger for sure. But the more accurate way to view it is that the middle class is remaining stagnate and the upper class is rising rapidity while the elite class (me) is shooting off to the moon. Rather than a case of the middle class dying.

[diamenz]

Median Income Now = $39,400
Median Income in the year 2000 = $31,600
about a 25% increase (if we are rounding up)

Value of Dollar in the year 2000 ($1.00) compared to the value of a Dollar Now = $1.77
about a 75% increase (if we are rounding down)

To summarize, wages are up 25% in the last 23 years.... Inflation is up 75% in the last 23 years.
A person who made $30,000 in the year 2000 now has to make $52,500 just to keep up with inflation.
A person who made $50,000 in the year 2000 now has to make $88,500 just to keep up with inflation and afford the same $hit he could 23 years ago.

Some people like to argue that the quality of life is getting better in this country... It's not... not for the middle class, and definitely not for the average American.
The middle class has gotten their ass kicked the past 23 years. Everyone has, it's just that rich people tend to not notice the difference.

:applause:

this doesn't get talked about enough in the mainstream, if ever.

[j3lademaster]

The wealth gap is getting exceeding larger for sure. But the more accurate way to view it is that the middle class is remaining stagnate and the upper class is rising rapidity while the elite class (me) is shooting off to the moon. Rather than a case of the middle class dying.Isn't your explanation just a perfect definition of the middle class dying(as in rapid decline)?

[j3lademaster]

Middle class has been getting its ass kicked since JFK. He was the first of the billionaire simps put into office to accelerate tax cuts and handouts to the wealthy and corporations.

[Bill Gates]

Isn't your explanation just a perfect definition of the middle class dying(as in rapid decline)?

No, it's an explanation of how the middle class today can actually obtain more than they could in the year 2000 despite average prices being higher.

[j3lademaster]

No, it's an explanation of how the middle class today can actually obtain more than they could in the year 2000 despite average prices being higher.You said the middle class remain stagnant while the wealthy are building wealth at a rapid rate. That puts the middle class in the worse spot. I don't get the context here. Unless it's one of those 'I'd rather be middle class today than a duke 800 years ago' arguments.

[Bill Gates]

You said the middle class remain stagnant while the wealthy are building wealth at a rapid rate. That puts the middle class in the worse spot. I don't get the context here. Unless it's one of those 'I'd rather be middle class today than a duke 800 years ago' arguments.

That puts the middle class in the same spot, and the upper class in a better spot. I was saying that is a more accurate way to view it rather than the middle class dying.

Just because the elites of the world tripled their fortune, doesn't mean that your life got worse.

[Bill Gates]

Like I was saying just because televisions inflated 500% over the last 20 years, doesn't mean that it is more difficult for the middle class to obtain a television. It is actually much easier.

20 years from today the average new automobile might cost $200,000. But at the same time the world could be flooded with used cars that no one wants, making it much easier for the average human to obtain a vehicle in comparison to today.

[j3lademaster]

That puts the middle class in the same spot, and the upper class in a better spot. I was saying that is a more accurate way to view it rather than the middle class dying.

Just because the elites of the world tripled their fortune, doesn't mean that your life got worse.But something has to generate the revenue for the wealthy to become wealthier. Such as the greedflation we're seeing right now in everyday necessities and housing. I've been saying for years the 1%ers need to be regulated before their wealth gets to the point they have their hands in single family homes. They didn't in the past because it's seen as a low reward investment that requires a lot of capital, but as they grow more wealth they start running out of things to invest in and it just becomes investing in the next best thing, and then the next best thing etc until this happens. It's another reason I was vehemently against taxcuts for the rich.

Anyway, this sentiment is true if cost of living didn't go up drastically, but it did.

[Charlie Sheen]

That puts the middle class in the same spot, and the upper class in a better spot. I was saying that is a more accurate way to view it rather than the middle class dying.

Just because the elites of the world tripled their fortune, doesn't mean that your life got worse.

That is not true for the person who was not already a home owner. Their life gets worse as home ownership moves further out of reach.

[Bill Gates]

That is not true for the person who was not already a home owner. Their life gets worse as home ownership moves further out of reach.
That is true when we look at today vs 5 years ago, because of what happened to home prices. But I don't know that is true vs 30 years ago. And it may not be true 5 years from today. There could be a house market crash in the future.

When Doomsday says it is a "slow economic death" for the middle class I assumed we were talking decades time and his comparisons were make to the year 2000.

[Bill Gates]

That is why I posted that egg price chart. Eggs might be more expensive today vs 5 years ago, but over decades they have become increasingly easier to afford and obtain for the middle class.

[j3lademaster]

That is true when we look at today vs 5 years ago, because of what happened to home prices. But I don't know that is true vs 30 years ago. And it may not be true 5 years from today. There could be a house market crash in the future.

When Doomsday says it is a "slow economic death" for the middle class I assumed we were talking decades time and his comparisons were make to the year 2000.I'm pretty sure he means a rapid decline in the middle class to the point where we have to redefine it. I used to travel to Shanghai a few times for my last job, and there's a much different class and social dynamic there than the US. If you check the stats the avg hh income there is like $80k usd while the median is like $60k... you're a smart enough guy to know that represents some INSANE wealth disparty. The average housing price there is about $6k ish per square meter, so if we get something 200 sq met, which is roughly slightly over 2k sqr feet that's costing me over a million. So even if we go by avg, what 80k household can afford that?

[Charlie Sheen]

That is true when we look at today vs 5 years ago, because of what happened to home prices. But I don't know that is true vs 30 years ago. And it may not be true 5 years from today. There could be a house market crash in the future.

When Doomsday says it is a "slow economic death" for the middle class I assumed we were talking decades time and his comparisons were make to the year 2000.

Developers prefer vacancy to eating losses when the rates are too high. Home values are not going to fall when supply is restricted.

[j3lademaster]

That is why I posted that egg price chart. Eggs might be more expensive today vs 5 years ago, but over decades they have become increasingly easier to afford and obtain for the middle class.That's the context I don't understand. Just because you can nitpick a handful of things that have stayed consistent with inflation doesn't mean cost of living in relativity to median household income has. This is like me saying "everything's fine guys, hotdogs are still $1.50 at Costco".

[j3lademaster]

Developers prefer vacancy to eating losses when the rates are too high. Home values are not going to fall when supply is restricted.ofc not, the value would obviously go up if you restrict any supply. I don't think that's what he meant.

[rawimpact]

Well you rob the middle class to pay for the lower class that's what you get.

Tax the billionaires... tax remittances for all these working visas and those that are overstaying. If you want to work in the USA as a migrant, build a linear foot of border

[Bill Gates]

That's the context I don't understand. Just because you can nitpick a handful of things that have stayed consistent with inflation doesn't mean cost of living in relativity to median household income has. This is like me saying "everything's fine guys, hotdogs are still $1.50 at Costco".

The eggs were just an example. What if the majority of items from the year 2000 are more easily obtainable today in the year 2024? What would you say then?

[Charlie Sheen]

ofc not, the value would obviously go up if you restrict any supply. I don't think that's what he meant.

What do you think he meant?


That is true when we look at today vs 5 years ago, because of what happened to home prices. But I don't know that is true vs 30 years ago. And it may not be true 5 years from today. There could be a house market crash in the future.

How does a housing market crash move the needle any closer to affordable home ownership?

[Bill Gates]

How does a housing market crash move the needle any closer to affordable home ownership?

If the housing bubble pops like it did in 2008? And the price of houses comes tumbling down?

I think that is self explanatory.

[j3lademaster]

The eggs were just an example. What if the majority of items from the year 2000 are more easily obtainable today in the year 2024? What would you say then?That would mean the middle class is better off. But they aren't more easily obtainable though, since cost of living relative to income is higher. That point is moot.

[Charlie Sheen]

If the housing bubble pops like it did in 2008? And the price of houses comes tumbling down?

I think that is self explanatory.

You might want to take a look at what is happening in California with the massive number of vacant units being held off the market. As I said in an earlier post... when the inventory shrinks, the prices are not tumbling down.

[j3lademaster]

What do you think he meant?

As you can see from our back and forths I'm trying to figure that out lol. I have a few theories but I don't want to jump to conclusions. He's a smart guy so the disconnect can totally be from my side.


How does a housing market crash move the needle any closer to affordable home ownership?It did in 2011 right? It had its short term rammifications so I'm not suggesting housing crashes are 'good'. Mortgage companies becoming more conservative with their loan guidelines actually helps the middle class afford homes.

[Bill Gates]

Since home prices are "the big one" in terms of the middle class.

https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2022/6/7/saupload_mortgage-payment-for-median-new-home-as-percent-of-median-household-income-200012-202204.png

We can see there is currently a spike of unaffordability, but that over decades it has become slowly more affordable. (just like the eggs)

What's funny is that today's spike in home prices puts us about average with the year 2000.

And many might not comprehend that today's "high interest rates" are actually low historically speaking.

[j3lademaster]

Well you rob the middle class to pay for the lower class that's what you get.

Tax the billionaires... tax remittances for all these working visas and those that are overstaying. If you want to work in the USA as a migrant, build a linear foot of borderTax cuts exacerbates inflation at worst and does nothing at best, as corporations adjust pricing to the economy. The real problem lies with unregulated capitalism. If we regulate corporations correctly, small businesses have a chance at coming back(hard to say with online shopping) and we can possibly work on smaller govt after that.

[Charlie Sheen]

Since home prices are "the big one" in terms of the middle class.

https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2022/6/7/saupload_mortgage-payment-for-median-new-home-as-percent-of-median-household-income-200012-202204.png

We can see there is currently a spike of unaffordability, but that over decades it has become slowly more affordable. (just like the eggs)

What's funny is that today's spike in home prices puts us about average with the year 2000.

And many might not comprehend that today's "high interest rates" are actually low historically speaking.

https://www.car.org/marketdata/data/haitraditional

This is what you are trying to sell me is the new middle class... minimum qual income north of 200k

[warriorfan]

It's so much more complex than just comparing these two numbers. The average price of a television may have gone up 500% since the 2000. But a similar television from the year 2000 would be significantly cheaper today. Meaning that people today can more easily obtain a television even though the inflation of that item is very high.

And you have to look at only necessities.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BllpCugCEAATxLe.jpg

While certain items are up right now in the short term, over time society has figured out how to feed itself for much cheaper and faster. We are a nation of gluttons.

And from a quality of life stand point, that is almost impossible to quantify in numbers. But today we have a large portion of the country who is working in their pajamas. This would not be the case in the year 2000.

So eggs were relatively more expensive 120 years ago therefor everything is actually doing great….

:roll: :roll:

And we know you are some recluse who hates social interaction but everyone working in their pajamas isn’t exactly a quality of life improvement.

I hope this is some dumb schtick where you post purposefully obtuse troll comments.

[bladefd]

I wouldn't mind a short-term deflation. Nothing major but just something minor. I no longer support the 2% annual inflation goal. I think we have much more inflation than we want. Time to shut down any more inflation from organically happening because wages have not kept up with it. It's not beneficial for the American people to have inflation forever. Feds need to change strategy.

[Wardell Curry]

I wouldn't mind a short-term deflation. Nothing major but just something minor. I no longer support the 2% annual inflation goal. I think we have much more inflation than we want. Time to shut down any more inflation from organically happening because wages have not kept up with it. It's not beneficial for the American people to have inflation forever. Feds need to change strategy.

:roll:

[Bill Gates]

So eggs were relatively more expensive 120 years ago therefor everything is actually doing great….


Yes. Eggs and everything else.

Although that does not mean that your life is doing great.

[warriorfan]

At this point i’m pretty sure Bill Gates is a Donald Trump guy and made this alt to set up very weak, bad faith arguments from a left standpoint that can get knocked down by a slight breeze of wind. :lol

[j3lademaster]

Since home prices are "the big one" in terms of the middle class.

https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2022/6/7/saupload_mortgage-payment-for-median-new-home-as-percent-of-median-household-income-200012-202204.png

We can see there is currently a spike of unaffordability, but that over decades it has become slowly more affordable. (just like the eggs)

What's funny is that today's spike in home prices puts us about average with the year 2000.

And many might not comprehend that today's "high interest rates" are actually low historically speaking.I have a rebuttal for this, but I want to see what others say first.

[j3lademaster]

So eggs were relatively more expensive 120 years ago therefor everything is actually doing great….

:roll: :roll:

And we know you are some recluse who hates social interaction but everyone working in their pajamas isn’t exactly a quality of life improvement.

I hope this is some dumb schtick where you post purposefully obtuse troll comments.If you look at cpi and median hh income in 2000 and 2022, they have both risen ~55-60%

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator/consumer-price-index-1913-

[Wardell Curry]

At this point i’m pretty sure Bill Gates is a Donald Trump guy and made this alt to set up very weak, bad faith arguments from a left standpoint that can get knocked down by a slight breeze of wind. :lol

It's not a Donald Trump guy but it is a bad faith arguments alt, as you put it. Some men just like to watch the world burn.

[j3lademaster]

It's not a Donald Trump guy but it is a bad faith arguments alt, as you put it. Some men just like to watch the world burn.Where is the bad faith? If he said cpi instead of loleggs, does that fix the problem?

[Bill Gates]

At this point i’m pretty sure Bill Gates is a Donald Trump guy and made this alt to set up very weak, bad faith arguments from a left standpoint that can get knocked down by a slight breeze of wind. :lol

Still waiting on that slight breeze of wind.

[rawimpact]

Tax cuts exacerbates inflation at worst and does nothing at best, as corporations adjust pricing to the economy. The real problem lies with unregulated capitalism. If we regulate corporations correctly, small businesses have a chance at coming back(hard to say with online shopping) and we can possibly work on smaller govt after that.

I don't know about taxing corporations because as you said, it just adds to inflation. But I would like imported items taxed. I am for free market as long as the market is fair. Items produced in standards similar to the US do not get taxed, whereas those that utilize subpar work conditions and/or environmental regulations get taxed. We can do what we want with that taxed amount, we're probably giving it back to them anyways but atleast we're collecting. This will allow companies to invest in the US.

Additionally all this money we're spending protecting these cargo ships from delivering our goods... none of these ships are registered in the US despite generating millions annually. IF they want our protection, they need to be paying their fair share. Instead, they reap the benefits of being registered in flag countries for the bottom line.

[Bill Gates]

This isn't a left or right standpoint. I came in here to point out Doomsday's idea that wages much keep up with inflation or the middle class will die is heavily flawed and the reality is much more complex than those two numbers.

I don't think political either side is chirping this reality.

[j3lademaster]

I don't know about taxing corporations because as you said, it just adds to inflation. But I would like imported items taxed. I am for free market as long as the market is fair. Items produced in standards similar to the US do not get taxed, whereas those that utilize subpar work conditions and/or environmental regulations get taxed. We can do what we want with that taxed amount, we're probably giving it back to them anyways but atleast we're collecting. This will allow companies to invest in the US.

Additionally all this money we're spending protecting these cargo ships from delivering our goods... none of these ships are registered in the US despite generating millions annually. IF they want our protection, they need to be paying their fair share. Instead, they reap the benefits of being registered in flag countries for the bottom line.I don't mean taxing corporations, I meant tax on the middle class. If the middleclass gets a tax cut and median income goes up 8-10%, corporations will adjust their prices accordingly, and at best there will be no change and at worst they will overshoot projections and cause an increase in the cost of goods compared to spending power. However, an increase in tax to the middle class will be detrimental because historical precedence says businesses are less likely to lower their cost of goods.

[rawimpact]

I don't mean taxing corporations, I meant tax on the middle class. If the middleclass gets a tax cut and median income goes up 8-10%, corporations will adjust their prices accordingly, and at best there will be no change and at worst they will overshoot projections and cause an increase in the cost of goods compared to spending power. However, an increase in tax to the middle class will be detrimental because historical precedence says businesses are less likely to lower their cost of goods.

What do you have to support this?

[j3lademaster]

What do you have to support this?Do you think companies will raise prices if min wage goes up? Same concept. Tax cuts for the middle class, the largest demographic, equals more money in your hand right? Market analysts know tax codes and they know roughly how much more the average american will have now. It's not an exact science, which is why sometimes it gets overshot. That and your superior doesn't even respect your data and 'the investors wanna see a number closer to this'.

[Axe]

So eggs were relatively more expensive 120 years ago therefor everything is actually doing great….

:roll: :roll:

And we know you are some recluse who hates social interaction but everyone working in their pajamas isn’t exactly a quality of life improvement.

I hope this is some dumb schtick where you post purposefully obtuse troll comments.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=331129&dateline=1521549769

[warriorfan]

Do you think companies will raise prices if min wage goes up? Same concept. Tax cuts for the middle class, the largest demographic, equals more money in your hand right? Market analysts know tax codes and they know roughly how much more the average american will have now. It's not an exact science, which is why sometimes it gets overshot. That and your superior doesn't even respect your data and 'the investors wanna see a number closer to this'.

Min wage going up raises operating costs which will raise prices on certain things. If everyone has more money from tax cuts then if certain companies try to hike up prices other competing companies can have better prices and get more business.

[Wardell Curry]

Min wage going up raises operating costs which will raise prices on certain things. If everyone has more money from tax cuts then if certain companies try to hike up prices other competing companies can have better prices and get more business.

Not only do operating costs go up as minimum wage goes up, but demand goes up as well.

[Bill Gates]

Min wage going up raises operating costs which will raise prices on certain things. If everyone has more money from tax cuts then if certain companies try to hike up prices other competing companies can have better prices and get more business.

We literally just dumped trillions on the middle class during covid and it resulted in businesses raising prices across the board (inflation) :oldlol::oldlol::oldlol:

Hopefully you are just a troll purposely creating arguments that can be brought down with a light gust of wind.

[j3lademaster]

Min wage going up raises operating costs which will raise prices on certain things. If everyone has more money from tax cuts then if certain companies try to hike up prices other competing companies can have better prices and get more business.
Theres no price competition in an oligarchical society. They literally tell you this in econ 101, oligarchies are even graphed the exact same as a monopoly. Corporations don’t set prices based how their operating costs, they set markups to maximize revenue. If x can be sold for $20 in the market and costs $10 to make, transport and sell they will charge $20. If the cost of making that goes down to $2, and the market will still pay $20 for it, guess what, they’re still going to charge $20. Min wage will raise operating costs, but its not by what corporate lobbyists want to mythologize. They are using their army if analysts to maximize the price point regardless.

[Wardell Curry]

If the cost of making that goes down to $2, and the market will still pay $20 for it, guess what, they’re still going to charge $20.

This is only true if there is no competition. And it's only true to some hard to quantify degree. Price cuts can and do happen on goods and services in many instances, despite the overall trend towards higher as inflation devalues the dollar.

And if the cost is that cheap, someone else is going to step in and start producing until an equilibrium is reached.

[rawimpact]

Do you think companies will raise prices if min wage goes up? Same concept. Tax cuts for the middle class, the largest demographic, equals more money in your hand right? Market analysts know tax codes and they know roughly how much more the average american will have now. It's not an exact science, which is why sometimes it gets overshot. That and your superior doesn't even respect your data and 'the investors wanna see a number closer to this'.


The reason companies increase prices with minimum wage going up is because it directly affects their operating costs. A person working at McDonalds in Los Angeles is now making or will be making $20... or course the mega corporations will hike the prices... they have to answer to stockholders. Now if the middle-class, majority are skilled tradesmen, entrepreneurs and professionals are making more, it is not the same. Some of that money also trickles down to the working class as well. Market Analysts have been wrong for years, that's why we are where we are.

[Wardell Curry]

And this notion that corporations = evil money grubbers and that's all there is to the story is also not true. Yes, corporations are greedy and there to make money, and I could write an essay on the problems with them becoming too big.

However, as an example, Microsoft has a stronger stranglehold on desktop operating systems than ever before.

Despite this, even ignoring inflation, Windows is substantially cheaper than it was 30 years ago.

[j3lademaster]

This is only true if there is no competition. And it's only true to some hard to quantify degree. Price cuts can and do happen on goods and services in many instances, despite the overall trend towards higher as inflation devalues the dollar.

And if the cost is that cheap, someone else is going to step in and start producing until an equilibrium is reached.
Please quote my replies in full. There’s no true competition in an Oligarchical society. Something that takes walmart $2 to produce would take a small business about 5x or more. This is before I even take into consideration dead inventory. It has zero chance of competing. Walmart can set its price to anything as long as it’s lower than the small co and win. Sure you’ll still have guys like me who are willing to roll with an upcharge to support local businesses, but the exceptions are bad to use as examples.That isnt truly competition. Again, theres a reason oligarchies are graphed like monopolies.

[Wardell Curry]

The reason companies increase prices with minimum wage going up is because it directly affects their operating costs. A person working at McDonalds in Los Angeles is now making or will be making $20... or course the mega corporations will hike the prices... they have to answer to stockholders. Now if the middle-class, majority are skilled tradesmen, entrepreneurs and professionals are making more, it is not the same. Some of that money also trickles down to the working class as well. Market Analysts have been wrong for years, that's why we are where we are.

This is not the only reason. Minimum wage going up also increases demand for their goods and services.

If the minimum wage is $10, and it gets raised to $20 overnight, the demand for all goods and services that a $20 an hour worker can afford is going up. It's just common sense that this it true. You don't need to sit in a classroom and read a textbook or even be good at math to understand this concept.

Additionally, anyone that was previously making $20 an hour is now going to go seek employment elsewhere because their pay essentially got cut in half. And so it goes on up the chain until the market self corrects.

[j3lademaster]

The reason companies increase prices with minimum wage going up is because it directly affects their operating costs. A person working at McDonalds in Los Angeles is now making or will be making $20... or course the mega corporations will hike the prices... they have to answer to stockholders. Now if the middle-class, majority are skilled tradesmen, entrepreneurs and professionals are making more, it is not the same. Some of that money also trickles down to the working class as well. Market Analysts have been wrong for years, that's why we are where we are.
I’m glad you brought up McDonald’s because McDonald’s in Denmark is cheaper than McDonald’s in the US despite a more expensive workforce. These corporate lobbyists are lying to you and youre eating it up. Denmark has the safety nets that their citizens can afford to not work at abusive or jobs too low paying, And they consume less McDonalds than we do because they don’t have our lvl of food insecurity… again, social safety nets.

So cheaper McDonalds, more expensive workforce more rules and regulations and they still choose to operate there. Why? And yes I know McDonald’s mostly deals in land lease and franchising, still doesn’t change anything unless you think nordic franchisees are in it for charity.

[Wardell Curry]

Please quote my replies in full. There’s no true competition in an Oligarchical society. Something that takes walmart $2 to produce would take a small business about 5x or more. This is before I even take into consideration dead inventory. It has zero chance of competing. Walmart can set its price to anything as long as it’s lower than the small co and win. Sure you’ll still have guys like me who are willing to roll with an upcharge to support local businesses, but the exceptions are bad to use as examples.That isnt truly competition. Again, theres a reason oligarchies are graphed like monopolies.

Right but I just gave a concrete direct example of why your reasoning is not an absolute truth. If it were, the cost of Windows wouldn't be cut in half in terms of real value.

Windows 95 was $209.95 MSRP or $428+ in today's terms. Windows 11 in today's terms is $139 to $199 depending on which version you buy, and again, Windows is more widespread than ever before and Microsoft is bigger than ever before.

[j3lademaster]

This is not the only reason. Minimum wage going up also increases demand for their goods and services.

If the minimum wage is $10, and it gets raised to $20 overnight, the demand for all goods and services that a $20 an hour worker can afford is going up. It's just common sense that this it true. You don't need to sit in a classroom and read a textbook or even be good at math to understand this concept.

Additionally, anyone that was previously making $20 an hour is now going to go seek employment elsewhere because their pay essentially got cut in half. And so it goes on up the chain until the market self corrects.ding ding ding. We have a winner. If people have more money in their hands the market analysts will adjust prices accordingly. I thought I had a Chinese translating autofilter on or something.

[j3lademaster]

Right but I just gave a concrete direct example of why your reasoning is not an absolute truth. If it were, the cost of Windows wouldn't be cut in half in terms of real value.

Windows 95 was $209.95 MSRP or $428+ in today's terms. Windows 11 in today's terms is $139 to $199 depending on which version you buy, and again, Windows is more widespread than ever before and Microsoft is bigger than ever before.
Didn’t you just make fun of Gates for cherrypicking eggs? This is so dumb. The price of tv’s have gone down too over the years. So what? Our avg middle class purchasing power has gone up? Yes there are cherrypicked examples you can make, esp in tech, I’m talking about the market overall.

[Wardell Curry]

ding ding ding. We have a winner. If people have more money in their hands the market analysts will adjust prices accordingly. I thought I had a Chinese translating autofilter on or something.

I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall here. You keep citing corporations as if the market doesn't self correct up and down, corporations aside.

If a pizza shop owner that owns one location has minimum wage double on him overnight, not only are his costs going up but so is the demand for his product and he's going to raise his prices until he no longer can. You seem to understand this is true, so what is the problem with this?

Are you saying it is a problem that businesses raise the prices as demand soars? This isn't about corporations. This isn't about "market analysts." It's not some evil conspiracy of guys with white collar jobs sitting in a room somewhere saying "oh hey you know what, the middle class got a 10% tax break so we're going to raise our prices to adjust." No. The demand is going up because people have more disposable income. We do not live in a saver's society. Thus the prices go up. And why wouldn't the prices go up?

This is about one basic simple fact.

At the base of the argument, and I allow for misunderstanding your position as I have not read the entire thread, but you seem to be trying to regulate the value of individuals to the market or essentially regulate the morality, motivations and aspirations of individual human beings whether you realize it or not. If that's the case, good luck.

This isn't about corporations. This is about the nature of humanity.

[Bill Gates]

The best way to correct the situation isn't by giving the middle class money through tax cuts or handouts or any other way.

The best way to correct it is to heavily tax the elitists like myself and then use that money to create jobs that better society as a whole. Use that money to fix inner city schools, to fight crime, to create better roads, etc. Things that help all of us grow and prosper. The economy can function in a stable way under a system like that. The only thing stopping it are those using the word socialism as a way to fear monger others.

You want a more efficient police force? You want ghetto schools to get proper focus so that those kids don't go on to become drug dealers? Make Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk pay for it, not the middle class. Then all of the middle class have better lives and Musk and Bezos lives are unchanged.

[Baller234]

The best way to correct the situation isn't by giving the middle class money through tax cuts or handouts or any other way.

The best way to correct it is to heavily tax the elitists like myself and then use that money to create jobs that better society as a whole. Use that money to fix inner city schools, to fight crime, to create better roads, etc. Things that help all of us grow and prosper. The economy can function in a stable way under a system like that. The only thing stopping it are those using the word socialism as a way to fear monger others.

You want a more efficient police force? You want ghetto schools to get proper focus so that those kids don't go on to become drug dealers? Make Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk pay for it, not the middle class. Then all of the middle class have better lives and Musk and Bezos lives are unchanged.

1. Middle class people shouldn't just get to live tax free. The top 1% alone doesn't have enough money to fund all of our public services by themselves, nor should they be expected to.

2. You can't advocate for putting more money into fighting crime while also backing politicians who campaigned to "defund the police".

3. It's not the school's fault that kids are becoming drug dealers. It's their parental guidance or lack thereof. That's not a money problem, that's a people problem. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos can't stop bad parents from raising bad children.


Sounds like you just want rich and wealthy people to solve all of the world's problems, which is at the same time both impractical and selfish.

[Bill Gates]

You are allowed to advocate for things that go against your political party, that's called thinking for yourself. You should try it.

[j3lademaster]

I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall here. You keep citing corporations as if the market doesn't self correct up and down, corporations aside.

If a pizza shop owner that owns one location has minimum wage double on him overnight, not only are his costs going up but so is the demand for his product and he's going to raise his prices until he no longer can. You seem to understand this is true, so what is the problem with this?

Are you saying it is a problem that businesses raise the prices as demand soars? This isn't about corporations. This isn't about "market analysts." It's not some evil conspiracy of guys with white collar jobs sitting in a room somewhere saying "oh hey you know what, the middle class got a 10% tax break so we're going to raise our prices to adjust." No. The demand is going up because people have more disposable income. We do not live in a saver's society. Thus the prices go up. And why wouldn't the prices go up?

This is about one basic simple fact.

At the base of the argument, and I allow for misunderstanding your position as I have not read the entire thread, but you seem to be trying to regulate the value of individuals to the market or essentially regulate the morality, motivations and aspirations of individual human beings whether you realize it or not. If that's the case, good luck.

This isn't about corporations. This is about the nature of humanity.Let's recap.

1) I said tax cuts for the middle class wouldn't help anything, because the market will adjust. You seem to agree with that, but felt the need to echo Warriorfan that that min wage increase will raise operating cost. Operating cost of whom? Corporations? Ok, it looks like you brought them into the conversation. Not that anyone can really have a sane discussion about the market without talking about big companies, that should be obvious.

2) I said corporate lobbyists want you to think min wage has a bigger impact on pricing than it actually does. I provided the most neutral, vanilla textbook economic reasoning why and provided a real world example of McDonald's in Denmark; an example I only used because Rawimpact brought up McDonald's and it was in response to him.

3) Your responses are nitpicky with quotes like "only true to some hard to quantify degree" and "it's not absolute". get this. NOTHING IS ABSOLUTE IN THE MARKET. It's a redundant quantifier. So you agree, but you still want to debate for some reason.

4) You cherrypick one product- a tech product at that- to... what? I don't even get it.


Windows 95 was $209.95 MSRP or $428+ in today's terms. Windows 11 in today's terms is $139 to $199 depending on which version you buy, and again, Windows is more widespread than ever before and Microsoft is bigger than ever before.

To prove the price of goods do go down in some cases? Right after you accuse someone else of being a bad faith actor because they cherrypicked the price of eggs? If that's not the case please clarify. I did ask you what Gates said in bad faith earlier but you didn't respond, so I can only assume it's about the eggs.

You also badfaithed(whether it was on purpose or not) a position here:


And this notion that corporations = evil money grubbers and that's all there is to the story is also not true.

Which no one in the thread said. Corporations BY NATURE is designed to maximize revenue, which isn't good nor evil. However, by doing that it hurts small businesses since walmart can deal in more bulk than your local bodega. I described what it does from a neutral aspect and why it harms society. The closest thing you can find to me saying they're evil is this:


Theres no price competition in an oligarchical society. They literally tell you this in econ 101, oligarchies are even graphed the exact same as a monopoly. Corporations donÂ’t set prices based how their operating costs, they set markups to maximize revenue.

which are objective facts and how they inherently function, no one said anything from a moral standpoint.

You want a subjective opinion from me?


And this notion that corporations = evil money grubbers and that's all there is to the story is also not true. Yes, corporations are greedy and there to make money, and I could write an essay on the problems with them becoming too big.

Not one that won't make my eyes bleed.

[Baller234]

You are allowed to advocate for things that go against your political party, that's called thinking for yourself. You should try it.

That is beside the point. You seem to have this warped view that the top 1% could solve all of the world's problems. They can't, nor should they be expected to.

Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos don't have the means or the capability to end world hunger, lower crime or keep people out of jail. Even if you taxed them at 100%.

[Bill Gates]

That is beside the point. You seem to have this warped view that the top 1% could solve all of the world's problems. They can't, nor should they be expected to.

Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos don't have the means or the capability to end world hunger, lower crime or keep people out of jail. Even if you taxed them at 100%.

I never said it was even possible to end hunger. I never even said only the top 1% should pay all of our taxes. (Although they could)

You don't actually know my views. You've just trained your mind to immediately go to strawman because it's the only way you know how to debate.

[Charlie Sheen]

The best way to correct the situation isn't by giving the middle class money through tax cuts or handouts or any other way.

The best way to correct it is to heavily tax the elitists like myself and then use that money to create jobs that better society as a whole. Use that money to fix inner city schools, to fight crime, to create better roads, etc. Things that help all of us grow and prosper. The economy can function in a stable way under a system like that. The only thing stopping it are those using the word socialism as a way to fear monger others.

You want a more efficient police force? You want ghetto schools to get proper focus so that those kids don't go on to become drug dealers? Make Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk pay for it, not the middle class. Then all of the middle class have better lives and Musk and Bezos lives are unchanged.

History does not agree with you...

Want to take a guess which direction performance, retention, and graduation rates went once the majority of public school funding shifted from local to state level in California?

It did not even the playing field. It increased the distance between the haves and the have nots.

You think moving those dollars even further away at the federal level that money is going to find its way to "the ghetto"? :lol

[Baller234]

I never said it was even possible to end hunger. I never even said only the top 1% should pay all of our taxes. (Although they could)

You don't actually know my views. You've just trained your mind to immediately go to strawman because it's the only way you know how to debate.

Uh, I think I have a pretty good summation of your views. You've made them pretty clear.

You said that taxing the wealthy elite at a higher percentage would improve society for everyone else. As if they alone have the means to fund our entire economy and provide all of our public services. This is a pipe dream. Even if you taxed them at 100%, it still wouldn't be enough.

Furthermore, raising taxes doesn't automatically mean it's going to trickle down to the average citizen. Our government is not only inept, they are also notoriously corrupt. Either the money will be stolen or laundered or it's going to be misspent on some inefficient and bloated government program. If you're really concerned about job creation, you should be looking to the private sector for solutions... not government.

Also, your suggestion that more school funding would lead to less people turning to crime is absurd. I don't care if you build a state of the art campus and staff it with the best teachers from all the over world, it's not going to just automatically keep troublesome kids out of the streets. So called "community leaders" are always advocating for more rec centers and after school programs and shit like that. Might make for a great soundbite, might sound like you're actually doing something... but you aren't. This is real life, not some CW show. The blame starts with the parents. Fix that and everything else will naturally fall into place.

It has nothing to do with raising Elon Musk's taxes.

[Doomsday Dallas]

Didn’t you just make fun of Gates for cherrypicking eggs? This is so dumb. The price of tv’s have gone down too over the years. So what? Our avg middle class purchasing power has gone up? Yes there are cherrypicked examples you can make, esp in tech, I’m talking about the market overall.


exactly... who gives a F*ck about eggs, tv's, or any cherry picked examples of prices going down... seriously? it's the overall market.

I could do that too... A Jumbo Jack when I was teenager was $1.00... Now it's damn near $5.00

The bottom line is purchasing power.

A 18 year-old kid who wanted to fly away from the nest in the year 2000 and move out of Mom & Dad's house... only needed to make $25k-$30k... it was easier to live on your own at a early age 20 years ago.

I had a 2 bedroom apartment for $950 in the year 2001... today that same exact apartment is going for $1700.... So in about 20-25 years the rent has almost doubled, while the average person's salary has only gone up 30%-40% at best.

A younger person used to be able live on their own with a relatively easy entry level job. You can't do that today...
20 more years from now... when your children are trying to leave the nest, let's hope they have entry level jobs starting people out at $80k a year, because that is what it's going to cost for them to live on their own.

There are plenty of people that have worked for the same company for 20 years... started at $40k... worked their way up with added job responsibilities, longer work hours, and more difficult tasks to manage, upgraded their job title and are now making $80k.... In reality, when you account for inflation, their overall purchasing power only went up roughly $10-$15k.... and hell, not only is their job now twice as hard, but they probably now qualify for a higher tax bracket.

Simply put... Inflation is similar to Gentrification... It's damn near the same thing, only Inflation takes decades and affects the entire country (mostly the middle class), while Gentrification can happen in the span of a few years and only affects a small community (mostly the lower class).

[Charlie Sheen]

exactly... who gives a F*ck about eggs, tv's, or any cherry picked examples of prices going down... seriously? it's the overall market.

I could do that too... A Jumbo Jack when I was teenager was $1.00... Now it's damn near $5.00

The bottom line is purchasing power.

A 18 year-old kid who wanted to fly away from the nest in the year 2000 and move out of Mom & Dad's house... only needed to make $25k-$30k... it was easier to live on your own at a early age 20 years ago.

I had a 2 bedroom apartment for $950 in the year 2001... today that same exact apartment is going for $1700.... So in about 20-25 years the rent has almost doubled, while the average person's salary has only gone up 30%-40% at best.

A younger person used to be able live on their own with a relatively easy entry level job. You can't do that today...
20 more years from now... when your children are trying to leave the nest, let's hope they have entry level jobs starting people out at $80k a year, because that is what it's going to cost for them to live on their own.

There are plenty of people that have worked for the same company for 20 years... started at $40k... worked their way up with added job responsibilities, longer work hours, and more difficult tasks to manage, upgraded their job title and are now making $80k.... In reality, when you account for inflation, their overall purchasing power only went up roughly $10-$15k.... and hell, not only is their job now twice as hard, but they probably now qualify for a higher tax bracket.

Simply put... Inflation is similar to Gentrification... It's damn near the same thing, only Inflation takes decades and affects the entire country (mostly the middle class), while Gentrification can happen in the span of a few years and only affects a small community (mostly the lower class).

Food (eggs) is one you should give a f*ck about

Low cost of food has functioned as a subsidy for lagging wages

Cost of food has been increasing at a faster rate than inflation.

[Bill Gates]

When we talk about 25-30 year spans, the vast majority of things are easier to obtain in the future. The eggs were a sample of what basically represents everything.

Even in the extreme example of home prices, which basically went yp 100% over the past few years, we can see it is about equal to the year 2000.

Almost all of the items from the past are made more efficiently and cheaper today. Just because newer more expensive versions of those things now exist doesn't mean you are worse off than 30 years ago

[rmt]

The best way to correct the situation isn't by giving the middle class money through tax cuts or handouts or any other way.

The best way to correct it is to heavily tax the elitists like myself and then use that money to create jobs that better society as a whole. Use that money to fix inner city schools, to fight crime, to create better roads, etc. Things that help all of us grow and prosper. The economy can function in a stable way under a system like that. The only thing stopping it are those using the word socialism as a way to fear monger others.

You want a more efficient police force? You want ghetto schools to get proper focus so that those kids don't go on to become drug dealers? Make Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk pay for it, not the middle class. Then all of the middle class have better lives and Musk and Bezos lives are unchanged.

Last school year, Baltimore City Schools received $1.6 billion from taxpayers, the most ever. The district also received $799 million in Covid relief funding from the federal government. And still, not a single student tested at 13 City high schools scored proficient on the state math test.

“So, it's not a funding issue. We're getting plenty of funding,” said Rodriguez.“I don't think money is the issue. I think accountability is the issue.”

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/at-13-baltimore-city-high-schools-zero-students-tested-proficient-on-2023-state-math-exam

I strongly disagree that throwing more money at inner city schools will fix them - look at 13 Baltimore City high schools - ZERO students proficient on 2023 state math exam. I personally know that kids can be educated with very little money - especially in this day and age - with a computer, internet connection, printer and a library card.

Please look at Florida's test scores - far higher (especially considering how many ESOL students here) - for far less spent per student than Baltimore. FL is very flexible on education. They (now) give a $8k "voucher" for school choice, are very friendly to homeschooling - allow students to join activities and 2 free classes at public schools, incentive-based assistance such as pay for AP classes, pay tuition (Bright Futures) at 9 state universities, full ride (tuition, room and board) for National Merit.

I've always maintained that Lebron (instead of touting his social justice issues) would help more by preaching the many benefits of staying with the same woman for a long time (2 parent household).

And elitists like yourself are free to donate your money to fix these problems if that is what you believe will help.

[Wardell Curry]

Let's recap.

1) I said tax cuts for the middle class wouldn't help anything, because the market will adjust. You seem to agree with that, but felt the need to echo Warriorfan that that min wage increase will raise operating cost. Operating cost of whom? Corporations? Ok, it looks like you brought them into the conversation. Not that anyone can really have a sane discussion about the market without talking about big companies, that should be obvious.

You act like only big companies exist. You think minimum wage going up doesn't increase operating costs of small businesses? Of course it does. It increases the operating costs of everyone. And guess what? Those costs get directly passed on to the consumer. I think you already understand this so I don't know what we're arguing about here. The market, through the nature of humanity, not some analyst sitting in a room, will adjust wages accordingly to wages going up. Minimum wage increases are very short term wins for some bottom earners(the ones that keep their jobs) and that's all that it is.


2) I said corporate lobbyists want you to think min wage has a bigger impact on pricing than it actually does. I provided the most neutral, vanilla textbook economic reasoning why and provided a real world example of McDonald's in Denmark; an example I only used because Rawimpact brought up McDonald's and it was in response to him.

It's a batshit insane idea that minimum wage has a small impact on pricing. It has a large impact on pricing for literally everything in the economy.

Let's get something straight right now. Minimum wage matters very little if at all. There is one pie. You can play with the raw numbers of the pie all you want and divide that pie up into however many slices you want, but the nature of humanity will ensure that the percentages of the pie remain going to the same people over time. There are a ton of factors that determine said percentages, but long term, minimum wage is not really one of those factors.

The percentages stay the same.


4) You cherrypick one product- a tech product at that- to... what? I don't even get it.



To prove the price of goods do go down in some cases? Right after you accuse someone else of being a bad faith actor because they cherrypicked the price of eggs? If that's not the case please clarify. I did ask you what Gates said in bad faith earlier but you didn't respond, so I can only assume it's about the eggs.

I am trying to explain to you that your statement of "corporations will leave the price the same if they can get away with it"(something you said) is nonsense and I gave you probably the biggest single example of why is not necessarily the case. Microsoft probably has the closest thing to a monopoly that exists in all of society with Windows and yet the price of Windows for the consumer has dropped dramatically in real world terms over the past 30 years. Why? Because the market deemed it so. Microsoft can move more copies overall and make more money overall by making Windows cheaper, so they did. People won't continue to shell out what was $450 in 1995 terms for a new version of Windows when the one they're running will do just fine. The market adjusted itself. Shocker.


You also badfaithed(whether it was on purpose or not) a position here:



Which no one in the thread said. Corporations BY NATURE is designed to maximize revenue, which isn't good nor evil. However, by doing that it hurts small businesses since walmart can deal in more bulk than your local bodega. I described what it does from a neutral aspect and why it harms society. The closest thing you can find to me saying they're evil is this:



which are objective facts and how they inherently function, no one said anything from a moral standpoint.

You want a subjective opinion from me?



Not one that won't make my eyes bleed.


Stop thinking you can regulate the nature of humanity as it pertains to wages and motivations. You can't. The percentages stay the same.

Also, stop acting like a snob.

[Charlie Sheen]

I have a rebuttal for this, but I want to see what others say first.

The point I was trying to make with the link I posted...

Guy slices the middle class and redefines the segment above the median as the middle class.
Of course those buyers are going to be able to eat higher payments now with an eye on refinancing down the road. This is not 2006. Home values have not tripled over the last 10 years. These buyers are not rolling the dice on a losing bet. 40% of a home's value is not going to evaporate overnight. Supply will continue to remain low because investors are holding property off the market while the price of land rises.

[j3lademaster]

The point I was trying to make with the link I posted...

Guy slices the middle class and redefines the segment above the median as the middle class.
Of course those buyers are going to be able to eat higher payments now with an eye on refinancing down the road. This is not 2006. Home values have not tripled over the last 10 years. These buyers are not rolling the dice on a losing bet. 40% of a home's value is not going to evaporate overnight. Supply will continue to remain low because investors are holding property off the market while the price of land rises.I totally forgot about that, thanks for the reminder :cheers:

I'm in my mid 30's. When I was 18-19, kids my age were shamed in ridiculed for living with our parents so we typically moved out. Now, you're living with parents either way if you're min wage so we have an insane 54% unemployment rate for ages 18-24. That creates a huge chasm in the unskilled low wage workforce, so it skews median HH income. Then we have a rise in dual income. That has obvious affects on median HOUSEHOLD income.


The percentage of dual-income households was fairly stable between 1998 and 2017, ranging from 52 to 58 percent

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2020/article/comparing-characteristics-and-selected-expenditures-of-dual-and-single-income-households-with-children.htm

So if I look at stats like cpi and hh income in 2000 vs cpi and hh in 2022, they have both risen about 58%/59% which should signify a steady consistent ratio to represent the same purchasing power; but it isn't consistent if we don't take into consideration changes in social dynamics in the past 20+ years.

You'll love the next part because this is where I 100% agree with you:

We have to look at WHO is buying the homes, which your graph better represents. According to statistics, we have the most percentage of renters in the past ~50 years.


A decade after the housing bust upended the lives of millions of Americans, more U.S. households are headed by renters than at any point since at least 1965, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of Census Bureau housing data.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/07/19/more-u-s-households-are-renting-than-at-any-point-in-50-years/#:~:text=A%20decade%20after%20the%20housing,of%20C ensus%20Bureau%20housing%20data.

So your assessment is absolutely right, only the top %ers have access to buying homes now vs before.

And honestly, just going outside and talking to people, everyone is saying cost of living is going up. The graph you posted is much more indicative of what it takes to afford a home in the current market.

[Bill Gates]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/Sl91V2N0NRI/AAAAAAAAKoc/1XjOfOwAOSQ/s400/food.jpg


Just eggs right? Slow death of the middle class?

Food costs have been at a steady decline until recent covid years.

Back in the 40s and 50s people had to spend 20% of the paycheck feeding themselves.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/charts/107092/food-income-shares_768px.png?v=8837.9

Seen here the only thing that has slightly gone up over time is eating out at restaurants. That is a sign of a wealthy glutenous society. We like to eat out even though we could save a ton eating at home.

[Stephonit]

Do the same for housing as % of disposable income that you did with food in the above graph.

[Bill Gates]

Since home prices are "the big one" in terms of the middle class.

https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2022/6/7/saupload_mortgage-payment-for-median-new-home-as-percent-of-median-household-income-200012-202204.png

We can see there is currently a spike of unaffordability, but that over decades it has become slowly more affordable. (just like the eggs)

What's funny is that today's spike in home prices puts us about average with the year 2000.

And many might not comprehend that today's "high interest rates" are actually low historically speaking.

I already did that on page 2

[Doomsday Dallas]

Food costs have been at a steady decline until recent covid years.



That's complete bull$hit.

Food prices have about the same rate of inflation: 3% annually


Table: Food Inflation by Month and Year

The below table shows the percent increase or decrease in food prices on an annual basis by month and calendar year. Since figures below are 12-month periods, look to the December column to find the overall change in food prices by calendar year. The last column, "Ave," shows the average rate of increase or decrease in food prices by year.

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/food-inflation-in-the-united-states/


The chart is in the link... and how much they have increased month by month since 1968.... it's about 3% on average.

[Doomsday Dallas]

It's like you are arguing the cost of living hasn't gone up the past 25 years.... give me a break. Why because the price of a television has gone down?

This doesn't have to be a complex issue... it's average wage increase vs inflation rate.

Wages on average are not keeping up with inflation... period.

And not every expense is going to be tangible items... many of those expenses are services: like tuition, daycare, regular maintenance, regular entertainment, Utilities, parking and tolls.

Does the justice system lower their fines, tickets, and court costs as time goes by? Do lawyers become less expensive overtime? It's cost of living in general, and it rises damn near at the same rate of inflation.

I've stated my case... you are making $40,000 dollars in 2000.... now you are making $70,000 today.... your income is about the same... this seems like an average example for a school teacher or policeman who's worked the same job their whole life... thought they were working their way up the ladder, perfecting their craft, becoming better at their job and taking on added responsibilities, but they basically can afford the same $hit as they could 25 years ago. Nothing changed in terms of their overall purchasing power. That's not to say life can't be quality in that situation (depending how you spend your money)... but because of inflation you really didn't gain much purchasing power if any at all.

There is no way to twist this into an argument that because the price of a television went down, over time, your purchasing power went up.

The only way you basically win that argument is if quality affordable housing became available nationwide... and that's just never going to happen.



For every person that escapes the middle class and becomes upper class.... there are two people that got pushed out of the middle class and are now struggling to pay the bills and keep up.

Fiat Money is game of musical chairs... somebody always loses a chair once the music stops.... We go through a recession every 7-10 years and eventually we hit a depression (high unemployment) and have to start from scratch.

It's always a bubble that is going to pop.... and it's because the Fed can print whatever the f*ck they want

I can't believe I'm having to argue basic elementary common sense as to why inflation is bad... but it doesn't surprise me considering how many Americans have talked themselves in to why Socialism is good.

[Bill Gates]

That's what I've been trying to explain to you this entire thread. Going by inflation is very misleading.

It is way more complicated than just looking and wages vs inflation.

Just because food as a whole went up a certain amount, doesn't mean that you can't eat cheaper today than 25 years ago.

People today have been spending less on food than previous years. Look sold everyone is fat as fck.

[Bill Gates]

This is easily seen in tech where the price of an iPhone inflates every year. But you can still get a cell phone for much cheaper today than 30 years ago.

Hell you can get a cell phone free today.

[Axe]

This is easily seen in tech where the price of an iPhone inflates every year. But you can still get a cell phone for much cheaper today than 30 years ago.

Hell you can get a cell phone free today.
Because cell phones weren't so common bt, only the rich and wealthy had them before. Same thing could also be said about cars, where only a very few models existed in the early 20th century. Now they're almost everywhere.

[jstern]

Because cell phones weren't so common bt, only the rich and wealthy had them before. Same thing could also be said about cars, where only a very few models existed in the early 20th century. Now they're almost everywhere.

Here's Axe showing that he's smarter than Off the Court.

I think Blade would also instinctively know that cars, cells phones, HD TVs, were more expensive when they first came into the market, versus decades later.

[Axe]

:sleeping

[Charlie Sheen]

That's what I've been trying to explain to you this entire thread. Going by inflation is very misleading.

It is way more complicated than just looking and wages vs inflation.

Just because food as a whole went up a certain amount, doesn't mean that you can't eat cheaper today than 25 years ago.

People today have been spending less on food than previous years. Look sold everyone is fat as fck.

blademaster gives you the benefit of the doubt, but I am gonna tell it straight... The more you post in this thread, the clearer it is to me you have never had to earn your own living. There is nothing wrong with that until you barged into this thread like you were some kind of an expert on topics you were very obviously recently introduced to. You are an idiot who shrouds himself behind this bill gates gimmick.

Make the ultra rich pay for it all through taxes!

You do not understand that reinvestment in the community happens when
residents own their homes
they keep more of their income

[Bill Gates]

The hilarious thing is that I can't even figure out how to dumb my point down enough for this place, it keeps going over heads :oldlol:


SIMPLY PUT:

Just because a certain sector has shown overall inflation, even high inflation, that does not mean that items in said sector can not be had for cheaper today vs the past.

Dooms (and others) have the misguided view that because food as whole (or anything else) has inflated x%, that means that one can not eat for cheaper today than in the past.

I tried to give very simplistic dumbed down examples of but oh well. Have fun believing that your life is garbage compared to yesteryear.

[j3lademaster]

Also, stop acting like a snob.


I wouldn't mind a short-term deflation. Nothing major but just something minor. I no longer support the 2% annual inflation goal. I think we have much more inflation than we want. Time to shut down any more inflation from organically happening because wages have not kept up with it. It's not beneficial for the American people to have inflation forever. Feds need to change strategy.


:roll:

Act like a snob, then cry about other people acting like snobs? Ok.

[j3lademaster]

This is easily seen in tech where the price of an iPhone inflates every year. But you can still get a cell phone for much cheaper today than 30 years ago.

Hell you can get a cell phone free today.This is a dangerous precedent to set. Iphones and Samsungs inflate yearly compared to other sell phones because now you're going into luxury and inferior goods, which is a direct indication economists use to understand standard of living. In the US, anyone can afford Nikes, Coach bags etc; historically speaking. Whether they want to buy them or not is different, but they have the purchasing power to access it with relative ease. If you go to the philipines or something- countries with lower avg standards of living- most people aren't wearing name brands because it's harder to afford.

So you going into people being able to eat for cheaper, because there are new objectively worse alternatives we're inventing and this iphone vs reg cell phone comparison is doing just that. It's literally proving a decline in purchasing power and average quality of life.

[Bill Gates]

I was just trying to use iphone prices as an easy hypothetical way to illustrate my point of why it is misleading to look at the inflation rate of an item and use that as guideline as to what society is having to pay.

I'll just say this, viewing expenditures as a % of overall income is a much more accurate way of seeing what society is being forced to pay for certain things. In comparison to inflation rate vs wage rate.

Even that can be misleading in cases though, someone can pay 50% of their income on mortgage which at first glance seems extremely high, but if they are making $500k a year that still leaves them plenty of disposable income.

[warriorfan]

I was just trying to use iphone prices as an easy hypothetical way to illustrate my point of why it is misleading to look at the inflation rate of an item and use that as guideline as to what society is having to pay.

I'll just say this, viewing expenditures as a % of overall income is a much more accurate way of seeing what society is being forced to pay for certain things. In comparison to inflation rate vs wage rate.

Even that can be misleading in cases though, someone can pay 50% of their income on mortgage which at first glance seems extremely high, but if they are making $500k a year that still leaves them plenty of disposable income.

long story short you are a ****ing idiot who can’t form a coherent talking point if their life depended on it


stick to copy pasting misleading graphs from the cdc website bro

[Bill Gates]

stick to copy pasting misleading graphs from the cdc website bro

I'll do that. And you continue to tell yourself that your life sucks because of inflation.

[Baller234]

I'll do that. And you continue to tell yourself that your life sucks because of inflation.

No you're right. It's not inflation that's destroying America. It's systemic bigotry, transphobia and white nationalism.

Joe Biden is #1.

[rmt]

I'll do that. And you continue to tell yourself that your life sucks because of inflation.

Smh, the majority of US (who are living paycheck to paycheck) is feeling inflation in the necessities of life: food, housing, energy.

I'd like to reinforce a previous post: when I was in my 20s (in the 80s), I bought my first house for 2x my salary. Now, in my 60s, our house is 10x my salary. True, I did take a 20 year break to raise kids (and would normally have a higher salary if I had not taken the break), but even then, I could never buy anywhere close to my current house on my salary. I worry about my kids' ability to buy ANY house.

[warriorfan]

I'll do that. And you continue to tell yourself that your life sucks because of inflation.

my life is great :lol I’m actually flying out to vegas for the super bowl tomorrow.

it’s just funny watching your pathetic attempts of your double digit iq go to work like a rusty hamster wheel.

keep it up lil guy, it’s unintentionally pretty funny content.

:cheers:

[Bill Gates]

Smh, the majority of US (who are living paycheck to paycheck) is feeling inflation in the necessities of life: food, housing, energy.

I'd like to reinforce a previous post: when I was in my 20s (in the 80s), I bought my first house for 2x my salary. Now, in my 60s, our house is 10x my salary. True, I did take a 20 year break to raise kids (and would normally have a higher salary if I had not taken the break), but even then, I could never buy anywhere close to my current house on my salary. I worry about my kids' ability to buy ANY house.

Housing prices just doubled, in the short term. My posts are in relation to Doomsday's assertion that the middle class is slowly dying over the long term.

I can sympathize with the current housing market, but I do not think it is permanent.

read this:
https://www.redfin.com/news/new-construction-q4-2023/

Home construction is at an all time high, supply will catch up, and rates are expected to drop sometime within the next year.

[Axe]

I'll do that. And you continue to tell yourself that your life sucks because of inflation.
Forget about him. That crackhead has been broke ever since and that he cannot get those monthly welfare cheques and precious food stamps anymore. :ohwell: :roll:

[Doomsday Dallas]

Maybe it's not as bad as I thought... after doing a little digging.

https://y.yarn.co/1d2ad870-ddd5-45c6-b145-639e16f5054d_text.gif



The Lower Class will only continue to grow... Doesn't matter how many people from the middle class become upper class.

I was wrong when I said this:


For every person that escapes the middle class and becomes upper class.... there are two people that got pushed out of the middle class and are now struggling to pay the bills and keep up.

It's actually the opposite... for every two people that graduate from the middle class and become upper class... Only one person joins the lower class, and is basically on the streets.

Now that's a wonderful statistic for America... and proves that their is opportunity in this country... but it comes at a cost, and ideally you would want the lower class to shrink and not grow, especially if you are a leftist.

I could blame leftist policies as to why the lower class will never shrink.... but I put most of the blame on the Federal System system, inflation, out of control spending etc.

As long as the system is set up the way it is... by default the Lower Class only grows, and any attempt to over-tax the upper class and redistribute wealth in order to help the lower class will only accelerate the problem.

[Off the Court]

my life is great :lol I’m actually flying out to vegas for the super bowl tomorrow.


This guy in here whining and crying over inflation and the state of the economy, but he blew $10k on ticket to a football game. :facepalm :oldlol:

f@#k you clown

rmt in here explaining how the house he bought for pennies years back is now worth a fortune.




This is the story with all of them, they all claim they are doing absolutely fantastic, none of them are struggling at all. But that won't stop them from crying about the state of the middle class.

[BurningHammer]

This guy in here whining and crying over inflation and the state of the economy, but he blew $10k on ticket to a football game. :facepalm :oldlol:

f@#k you clown

rmt in here explaining how the house he bought for pennies years back is now worth a fortune.




This is the story with all of them, they all claim they are doing absolutely fantastic, none of them are struggling at all. But that won't stop them from crying about the state of the middle class.

He has already blown a lot on crack. :confusedshrug:

[j3lademaster]

This guy in here whining and crying over inflation and the state of the economy, but he blew $10k on ticket to a football game. :facepalm :oldlol:It's okay to be well off and still say "hey, things are not ok in this country". Without some level of wealth opportunity there will be no meritocracy. Who I advocate against are people who are billionaires multiple times over. They are leeches on society and stagnate innovation that isn't directly forwarding capitalism.

[j3lademaster]

The Lower Class will only continue to grow... Doesn't matter how many people from the middle class become upper class.

I was wrong when I said this:



It's actually the opposite... for every two people that graduate from the middle class and become upper class... Only one person joins the lower class, and is basically on the streets.

Now that's a wonderful statistic for America... and proves that their is opportunity in this country... but it comes at a cost, and ideally you would want the lower class to shrink and not grow, especially if you are a leftist.

I could blame leftist policies as to why the lower class will never shrink.... but I put most of the blame on the Federal System system, inflation, out of control spending etc.

As long as the system is set up the way it is... by default the Lower Class only grows, and any attempt to over-tax the upper class and redistribute wealth in order to help the lower class will only accelerate the problem.Huh? How did you get that number? And what do you consider middle class now? median house is like 400k and to afford that you have to be a top 10%er (170k/year). And people with higher incomes are probably working in cities with higher median housing prices. What is middle class even? What is 'graduating' middle class? Millionaire? Because I promise you it takes way more than 1 or 2 guys put on the street to generate a millionaire.

[rmt]

This guy in here whining and crying over inflation and the state of the economy, but he blew $10k on ticket to a football game. :facepalm :oldlol:

f@#k you clown

rmt in here explaining how the house he bought for pennies years back is now worth a fortune.




This is the story with all of them, they all claim they are doing absolutely fantastic, none of them are struggling at all. But that won't stop them from crying about the state of the middle class.

she

reading comprehension - my first house not equal the house we live in now. It was a comparison of salary and cost of housing then and now.

i do not claim to be doing absolutely fantastic - that's your inference. If I were, I'd not be worried about my kids' affording a house.

[warriorfan]

This guy in here whining and crying over inflation and the state of the economy, but he blew $10k on ticket to a football game. :facepalm :oldlol:

f@#k you clown

rmt in here explaining how the house he bought for pennies years back is now worth a fortune.




This is the story with all of them, they all claim they are doing absolutely fantastic, none of them are struggling at all. But that won't stop them from crying about the state of the middle class.

Where was I whining or crying about anything? lol.

You and your miserable boy bill gates are projecting hard. it’s pretty obvious you two are the guys with shitty lives here :lol

So have fun with cringy meltdowns on ISH this weekend. Knock yourself out.

:oldlol:

[BurningHammer]

Where was I whining or crying about anything? lol.

You and your miserable boy bill gates are projecting hard. it’s pretty obvious you two are the guys with shitty lives here :lol

So have fun with cringy meltdowns on ISH this weekend. Knock yourself out.

:oldlol:
Trolling on ISH is quite a shitty life to live. :oldlol:

[tpols]

Blademaster absolutely ethered everybody arguing against him in this thread to an astronomically and quite frankly absurd degree.

[tpols]

exactly... who gives a F*ck about eggs, tv's, or any cherry picked examples of prices going down... seriously? it's the overall market.

I could do that too... A Jumbo Jack when I was teenager was $1.00... Now it's damn near $5.00

The bottom line is purchasing power.


Yup. Bingo.

This thread is a master class in exposing the people (coward contrarion alts) arguing against the general premise that was proposed.

[Bill Gates]

Yup. Bingo.

This thread is a master class in exposing the people (coward contrarion alts) arguing against the general premise that was proposed.

Because the general premise of using wage rate increases against inflation as a gauge of how the middle class is doing is HIGHLY flawed. You either understand that or you don't. Clothing may have inflated to moon since 1950 but there is no question that one could dress themselves for cheaper today.

And Doomsday's example of a Jumbo Jack ($3.50) is actually what the poor obese citizens of the US eat.

[tpols]

Because the general premise of using wage rate increases against inflation as a gauge of how the middle class is doing is HIGHLY flawed. You either understand that or you don't. Clothing may have inflated to moon since 1950 but there is no question that one could dress themselves for cheaper today.

And Doomsday's example of a Jumbo Jack ($3.50) is actually what the poor obese citizens of the US eat.

OP presented the data that the overall average price on everything has gone up exponentially compared to wage increases.

You then proceeded to cherrypick an extremely myopic and miniscule couple of examples to try and form a rebuttal without realizing all of that was already included in the general inflation % increases which encompassed everything, and not just 1 or 2 commodities.

Long story short, you sir are an idiot and a troll and need to shut the **** up.

[Axe]

He has already blown a lot on crack. :confusedshrug:
:milton

[Bill Gates]

OP presented the data that the overall average price on everything has gone up exponentially compared to wage increases.

You then proceeded to cherrypick an extremely myopic and miniscule couple of examples to try and form a rebuttal without realizing all of that was already included in the general inflation % increases which encompassed everything, and not just 1 or 2 commodities.

Long story short, you sir are an idiot and a troll and need to shut the **** up.

You obviously didnt read the thread. I posted the price of ALL food. Not just eggs.

https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/7/17/saupload_food.jpg

Then I did the same with housing. I'll let you go find that yourself. Get back to me when you actually read everything.

I'm the mean time you should shut the fck up you stupid fcking dolt.

[Doomsday Dallas]

Huh? How did you get that number? And what do you consider middle class now? median house is like 400k and to afford that you have to be a top 10%er (170k/year). And people with higher incomes are probably working in cities with higher median housing prices. What is middle class even? What is 'graduating' middle class? Millionaire? Because I promise you it takes way more than 1 or 2 guys put on the street to generate a millionaire.


Did the upper class grow?... yes

Did the lower class grow?... yes

60% of the country was once considered to be "Middle Class"... now it's 50%

This chart is obviously unfair because it doesn't break down the Middle Class into sections.... if it did, I'm sure the "Lower Middle Class" grew to a much larger percentage.

https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/a131a7e8-a9e8-11e5-8ccb-07e94f98c393.jpg

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/

[Doomsday Dallas]

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/ixrkh9Hybl4