Just another reminder that LeBron has less triple doubles than Jokic

[Walk on Water]

It has to be said. I can’t emphasize this enough. People want to compare Lebron’s stats to players of the past or use his stats to say he’s better. But Jokic has played in like a million less games (exaggerating) than LeBron and had more triple doubles, while not even caring about stats or basketball for that matter.

Even Luca Doncic is at 28, 8 and 8 for his career. 34, 8 and 9 this year. That’s better than LeBron. So what you are not gonna do is use Lebrons stats but ignore the players that do more than him prime for prime, just cuz of inflation. You can’t have it both ways. Uh uh.

[Walk on Water]

Nobody ever defends this when I bring it up. Guess you can’t.

[Walk on Water]

You guys love to bring up Kobe or even Jordan to compare stats like rebounds and assists. But when it comes to Jokic, somehow it doesn't count or you pretend you didn't see it. Quit trying to control the narrative. You gotta debate fairly if you're gonna be a diehard. This isn't gonna go away.

Even Westbrook has more triple doubles than Lebron ever had. But Jokic is better in just about every facet. If you take Jokic's best 4 years, Lebron's numbers don't even hold a candle. Just saying. You can't use stats if you won't use it against players like Jokic.

You can't just play politics.

Some of you thinking Walk on Water sounds whiny. Yea... but at the same time, I am RIGHT.
Go ahead and try to place stats over Jordan or Kobe. You won't win in a Jokic debate.

[kawhileonard2]

It has to be said. I can’t emphasize this enough. People want to compare Lebron’s stats to players of the past or use his stats to say he’s better. But Jokic has played in like a million less games (exaggerating) than LeBron and had more triple doubles, while not even caring about stats or basketball for that matter.

Even Luca Doncic is at 28, 8 and 8 for his career. 34, 8 and 9 this year. That’s better than LeBron. So what you are not gonna do is use Lebrons stats but ignore the players that do more than him prime for prime, just cuz of inflation. You can’t have it both ways. Uh uh.

Good point

[Walk on Water]

Bump

[jstern]

Why are people ignoring Walk on Water's point. It's rare to see a Walk on Water thread get ignored, which usually only happens when Walk on Water has a point that nobody can refute. He has silenced the opposition. It's an interesting phenomenon.

[Baller234]

Great point. This is why you can't just lean on stats.

First it's efficiency... until you point to another player who had higher efficiency. Then it's TS%... until you point to another player with a higher TS%. The goal post is always moving.

What's sad is that Lebron's greatness speaks for itself. It shouldn't always have to come down to just stats. Once his stans start talking about triple doubles and efficiency ratings I already know it's going to be a dumb conversation.

In some ways I would rather have Jokic, but he still hasn't proven he's better than Lebron to me. I need to see more. I don't really care how many triple doubles he has.

[ImKobe]

Bran is gonna lose out statistically to Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, Wemby etc and the younger fans who don't care for Bran are going to say that he was indeed worse than them because of the numbers. Funny how time works, huh? Bran stans talked all that shit about Jordan and Kobe and now they're going to be in the same boat.

[1987_Lakers]

Bran is gonna lose out statistically to Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, Wemby etc and the younger fans who don't care for Bran are going to say that he was indeed worse than them because of the numbers. Funny how time works, huh? Bran stans talked all that shit about Jordan and Kobe and now they're going to be in the same boat.

Damn, another list of players who will eventually surpass Kobe. Ouch.

[ImKobe]

Damn, another list of players who will eventually surpass Kobe. Ouch.

No one cares bro, let it go. Give us some modern NBA takes. We're over the Kobe/Bran/MJ debates here. You're stuck in the past.

[1987_Lakers]

No one cares bro, let it go. Give us some modern NBA takes. We're over the Kobe/Bran/MJ debates here. You're stuck in the past.

Modern NBA takes like this?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511957-ImKobe-told-us-AD-was-better-than-Jokic

[Axe]

Damn, another list of players who will eventually surpass Kobe. Ouch.

Modern NBA takes like this?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511957-ImKobe-told-us-AD-was-better-than-Jokic
:roll:

[LAL]

Been saying this for years. Guys like Jokic and Doncic pass all the skill tests but lebron severely lacks there even tough bron stans and media tried to push this "greatest all around player ever" title because of his stats, it sure wasn't the eye test. Now his stats look inferior compared to many skilled players, even peak James Harden scoring 36ppg 10asst, now stans are left defending his weaknesses, 3 rings in 2 decades and lesser stats than more skilled players who don't really visibly stat pad like lebron does.

[LAL]

Also

Imagine all the shit talking bron stans and the media would do if lebron stayed in cleveland and Jokic or Doncic did this out West

https://media.nj.com/nets_impact/photo/lebron-james-chris-bosh-dwyane-wade-introduced-in-miami-7821fbe30df9302c_large.jpg

Still mind-blowing to this day

[ImKobe]

Also

Imagine all the shit talking bron stans and the media would do if lebron stayed in cleveland and Jokic or Doncic did this out West

https://media.nj.com/nets_impact/photo/lebron-james-chris-bosh-dwyane-wade-introduced-in-miami-7821fbe30df9302c_large.jpg

Still mind-blowing to this day

That's the modern equivalent of Jokic, Doncic & Tatum teaming up lol. Could you imagine?

[SouBeachTalents]

That's the modern equivalent of Jokic, Doncic & Tatum teaming up lol. Could you imagine?
The Bosh comparisons in these always crack me up, it’s always someone much better than him :lol

[RRR3]

The Bosh comparisons in these always crack me up, it’s always someone much better than him :lol
To be fair he thinks Tatum is a Brandon Ingram level player so it’s actually pretty accurate from his point of view.

[beasted]

I think it's more shocking that Jimmy Butler has more triple doubles in 4 years than LeBron had in his 4 years with Miami.

[r0drig0lac]

5 star thread

[tpols]

The Bosh comparisons in these always crack me up, it’s always someone much better than him :lol

Bosh made All NBA and led his team to a 47-35 win record with this as his help...

https://i.postimg.cc/tCrBqCTD/Screenshot-20240304-124416-Chrome.jpg

And that's not a typo... one of the best starters on his team had a last name of garbage-osa.

And that's the help he did it with. 2nd team All NBA ahead of guys like Garnett and Dwight.

Tatum is nice but he isn't doing shit on the mid 2000s Raptors. He's been pampered his whole career on a great Franchise and isn't really better at all.

They were both top 10-15 players.

[Kblaze8855]

Bosh made All NBA and led his team to a 47-35 win record with this as his help...

https://i.postimg.cc/tCrBqCTD/Screenshot-20240304-124416-Chrome.jpg

And that's not a typo... one of the best starters on his team had a last name of garbage-osa.

And that's the help he did it with. 2nd team All NBA ahead of guys like Garnett and Dwight.

Tatum is nice but he isn't doing shit on the mid 2000s Raptors. He's been pampered his whole career on a great Franchise and isn't really better at all.

They were both top 10-15 players.

The 3 years after that they couldn’t even get over .500 with a team with much more talent. And at a glance it seems the point was Bosh doesn’t belong in the comparisons he’s always in as the last guy in a big 3. And it’s true. People always make those comparisons and all 3 are tiers above Bosh. Bosh was left entirely off the all nba team 12 times and he retired at 31. He played from 19-31….entire physical and skills prime…and made 1 all nba team. In a league with 3 all nba teams(used to have 2). He was behind the likes of Boozer, Marion, Pau, Randolph, Aldridge and so on a lot more than he made it.


Guy just wasn’t considered that great.

[tpols]

He wasn't ranked below any of those guys in the mid 2000s.

Marion was playing on stacked Suns teams and would be a joke as a 1st option on the Raptors (or any team for that matter... he was a great ancillary player but had no scoring or playmaking bag at all) and Pau never made All NBA til he went to LA and played with Kobe.

He wasn't "that great" in terms of being Kobe or Lebron sure. Tatum?

I guess you just didn't watch prime Raptors predator hair having, face up aficionado Chris Bosh.

There's no shame in admitting it.

[RRR3]

He wasn't ranked below any of those guys in the mid 2000s.

Marion was playing on stacked Suns teams and would be a joke as a 1st option on the Raptors (or any team for that matter... he was a great ancillary player but had no scoring or playmaking bag at all) and Pau never made All NBA til he went to LA and played with Kobe.

He wasn't "that great" in terms of being Kobe or Lebron sure. Tatum?

I guess you just didn't watch prime Raptors predator hair having, face up aficionado Chris Bosh.

There's no shame in admitting it.
You once said Siakam was better than Giannis. No one cares what you say about NBA, you've proven to be clueless with statements like that.

[tpols]

You... obviously care since you respond to my posts all the time lmao. If you didn't care, you wouldn't. But the truth keeps yall coming back. :lol

[RRR3]

I'm fascinated by your stupidity, and want to see what dumb thing you'll say next. That doesn't mean I value your opinions about basketball. Siakam>Giannis is something an insane person says.

[tpols]

Well keep tuned in then my friend. I've got plenty of entertainment for you. *wink wink*

[Kblaze8855]

He wasn't ranked below any of those guys in the mid 2000s.

Marion was playing on stacked Suns teams and would be a joke as a 1st option on the Raptors (or any team for that matter... he was a great ancillary player but had no scoring or playmaking bag at all) and Pau never made All NBA til he went to LA and played with Kobe.

He wasn't "that great" in terms of being Kobe or Lebron sure. Tatum?

I guess you just didn't watch prime Raptors predator hair having, face up aficionado Chris Bosh.

There's no shame in admitting it.


I watch the NBA a lot more in Bosh prime than I watch it now. I had raptor fans mad at me on here when they traded for Jermaine O’Neal, because I made a topic saying I have never been more sure a supposed superstar pairing was about to do absolutely nothing.

In fact, I distinctly remember making a topic about 22 people I would rather have than Chris Bosch, and forgetting people and it expanding to like 27. I actually had to make a Vin Baker video in the late 2000s because people who were probably your age were disgusted I was comparing Bosh to him when they never even saw him play.

If I’m on the never even saw him play side of an argument on here it’s because I barely watch the league now. Otherwise it’s people like you talking to me about things I generally saw in person as an adult when they were between five and 15. Youre early 30s now and Bosh was drafted 21 years ago so that would seem to apply at the moment.

you can think he’s whatever. Fact is an awful lot of people didn’t, which is why he wasn’t so much as all NBA 3rd team more than once in his life. Though I’m sure that honor means nothing to you now despite you being the one to bring it up.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm someone who's honestly come to appreciate Bosh more since the small ball era took off around the league, but the way people try to paint his career in Toronto is straight up embarrassing :lol Like Blaze alluded to, this dude didn't even make as much as an All-NBA 3rd Team in 12 of his 13 seasons in the league. Tpols (of course) cherrypicked the one season in his career where he did make an All-NBA Team and led Toronto to a winning record. Funny how he didn't mention any of the other seasons where he failed to do either.

Has Tatum been on a better team than Bosh was in Toronto? Of course. But does that mean we should realistically expect Bosh to replicate his success with Boston, leading them to multiple ECF's, making it to the Finals, having 50 point Game 7's? There's just nothing from Bosh's career that would indicate he would do that, he's closer to someone like Siakam than he is to Tatum.

[ImKobe]

The Bosh comparisons in these always crack me up, it’s always someone much better than him :lol

Bosh was 9th in ppg and 4th in PER in 2010, Tatum is currently 9th in PPG 15th in PER :confusedshrug:

Bosh always gets underrated because he's the one who sacrificed the most offensively and because most of his career was spent on bad teams. He made 11 straight ASGs and was on Team USA prior to Miami as well and made All-NBA 2nd team, so far from a scrub that Bron fans have tried to make him out to be. He still had it and would have continued to make more ASGs and had a lengthy career if not for the blood clots.

Tatum might be the better player individually, but that doesn't really matter in this context.

[Kblaze8855]

Like Blaze alluded to, this dude didn't even make as much as an All-NBA 3rd Team in 12 of his 13 seasons in the league. Tpols (of course) cherrypicked the one season in his career where he did make an All-NBA Team and led Toronto to a winning record. Funny how he didn't mention any of the other seasons where he failed to do either.



Nor did one of the most “The regular season doesn’t matter” prone people I ever met point out he did 17.5 ppg on the playoffs on worse TS than Iversons playoff career average which I’ve seen him call attention to. Got beat in the first round in 6 by a .500 Nets team being eliminated in a 1 point games where Bosh was 8-22. A game 6 they only got to by virtue of his teammates stepping up when he was 3-11 for 11 points and the only negative(-9) in the starting lineup in game 5. Jose Calderon got him that one. One of 3 total playoff wins in 7 seasons in Toronto.

Not the way I’d choose to look at it but the selective use of such logic by some is hilarious.

[dankok8]

Bosh was never a player on the level of Jayson Tatum. At his best was a top 20 player on the level of say Sabonis or Adebayo.

[tpols]

Bosh was never a player on the level of Jayson Tatum. At his best was a top 20 player on the level of say Sabonis or Adebayo.

How did he get voted to 2nd team All NBA then in his prime? Not even 3rd but 2nd?

[Jimmy Rustler]

Been saying this for years. Guys like Jokic and Doncic pass all the skill tests but lebron severely lacks there even tough bron stans and media tried to push this "greatest all around player ever" title because of his stats, it sure wasn't the eye test. Now his stats look inferior compared to many skilled players, even peak James Harden scoring 36ppg 10asst, now stans are left defending his weaknesses, 3 rings in 2 decades and lesser stats than more skilled players who don't really visibly stat pad like lebron does.

Yep. If stats were all that mattered, Wilt would be the GOAT. Besides, there's no stat that measures shriveling in the clutch or choking in big games.

[dankok8]

How did he get voted to 2nd team All NBA then in his prime? Not even 3rd but 2nd?

One 2nd Team isn't that impressive. He got it because the Raptors were the 3rd seed that year. I followed that team and everyone was excited then Bosh had a dumpster fire of a postseason. Bosh was a nice guy so Raptors fans liked him but he was soft. He couldn't handle the physicality and especially playing good defensive teams.

[SouBeachTalents]

2nd All NBA team is top 10. You and others said he was in the 20s.

Losing to Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson trio when your second option is TJ Ford isn't embarrassing. I'm a Nets Fan. It would be embarrassing if it happened the other way around and Toronto still had Carter or added Kidd.
This isn't remotely true, Julius Randle made it just a couple of years ago, have had the likes of Jaylen Brown, Morant, DeRozan, Siakam, Pau on the Bulls, the list goes on and on.

By your own metric, that means Bosh wasn't a top 15 player for 12 of his 13 years in the league.

[tpols]

One 2nd Team isn't that impressive. He got it because the Raptors were the 3rd seed that year. I followed that team and everyone was excited then Bosh had a dumpster fire of a postseason. Bosh was a nice guy so Raptors fans liked him but he was soft. He couldn't handle the physicality and especially playing good defensive teams.

2nd team All NBA team is top 10. You and others said he was in the 20s.

Furthermore, losing to Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, and Richard Jefferson trio when your second option is TJ Ford isn't embarrassing. Bosh had 0 help comparatively.

I was a hardcore Nets Fan when they were still in NJ and used to go to games in The Meadowlands. I saw these games up close.

[dankok8]

The aforementioned Carter and Kidd were both better than Bosh in 2007.

Make a serious top 10 list for 2007 and put Bosh in the top 10. Go ahead.

[SouBeachTalents]

The aforementioned Carter and Kidd were both better than Bosh in 2007.

Make a serious top 10 list for 2007 and put Bosh in the top 10. Go ahead.
I cannot wait to see him attempt this :lol

[RRR3]

I cannot wait to see him attempt this :lol
He has to put Kidd over Bosh, because he once said Kidd was better than LeBron :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

The Randle comp is actually decent as they are similar players. Randle was also top 10 in MVP voting in 2021, but then had an awful go of it in the playoffs and people backtracked on his overall standing. Much like Bosh in 07.

[Xiao Yao You]

He reminded me more of a poor man's David Robinson

[tpols]

The aforementioned Carter and Kidd were both better than Bosh in 2007.

Make a serious top 10 list for 2007 and put Bosh in the top 10. Go ahead.

Easy.

I don't even have to make it for you.

https://i.postimg.cc/25nb5pMc/Screenshot-20240304-164318-Chrome.jpg

:lol

I was actually underselling @ top 10.

Chris Bosh was voted top 7 that year in MVP voting.

[Kblaze8855]

How did he get voted to 2nd team All NBA then in his prime? Not even 3rd but 2nd?

Same way Peja and Sam Cassell did. It isn’t a ranking. Peja was all nba over Dirk. He had a great year. He wasn’t better at basketball than 25 year old prime Dirk. Not that you even have to go back that far. Jaylen, Derozen, and Randle have never been top 10 either but all were all nba second team the last 3 years.

[Kblaze8855]

Losing to Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson trio when your second option is TJ Ford isn't embarrassing. I'm a Nets Fan. It would be embarrassing if it happened the other way around and Toronto still had Carter or added Kidd.


Funny thing is you talk like others don’t remember the time when we were on here at the time with Raptor fans saying TJ ford was the reason the raptors were finally good. There was an ongoing Taj vs Kirk Hinrich debate and TJ had a large following. And after him José Calderon was a darling of some of the early efficiency whores we had. A 50/40/98 season will do that. There was a whole debate because Arenas was saying guys like Jose shouldn’t be all stars and the advanced number guys took offense.

Jose and TJ were darlings of Raptor fans for a while there. They shit on Bosh heavily due to his playoff disappointments.

Like Embiid if Embiid were like 70% as good as he is.

[MrFonzworth]

So was DeAndre Jordan a top 5 player in the league in 2016?

[tontoz]

Bosh made the All Star game 11 years in a row. He would have made more if not for his blood clotting problem. He was better than he gets credit for.

[tpols]

I cannot wait to see him attempt this :lol

Whoah... how did he even attempt it? :lol

https://i.postimg.cc/25nb5pMc/Screenshot-20240304-164318-Chrome.jpg

Those were just the facts back in the day with no revisionist history.

I used to hate Bosh because he played in our division. And won it. And was annoyingly unstoppable in the high post.

[RRR3]

So was DeAndre Jordan a top 5 player in the league in 2016?
:yaohappy:

[RRR3]

Kenny Smith was 17th in MVP voting in 1991. He actually got more votes than Hakeem. The real mvp of the Rockets according to Ttrolls :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Kenny Smith was 17th in MVP voting in 1991. He actually got more votes than Hakeem. The real mvp of the Rockets according to Ttrolls :lol


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2403050350450345.jpeg

[tpols]

Hakeem was hurt in the 1991 season. Apparently Bill Cartwright almost knocked his eye ball out and he missed half the season.

:lol :facepalm

And still 17th.

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem was hurt in the 1991 season. Apparently Bill Cartwright almost knocked his eye ball out and he missed half the season.

:lol :facepalm

And still 17th.


So you mean circumstances heavily factor into such things, and can result in players being placed far from their actual ranking? I had no idea.

[tpols]

Listen. You guys need to come with better arguments. If RRR3 has to dig back 30+ years to find an outlier that can be explained perfectly contextually to discount a perfectly valid point yall NEED Jesus.

[RRR3]

Hakeem was hurt in the 1991 season. Apparently Bill Cartwright almost knocked his eye ball out and he missed half the season.

:lol :facepalm

And still 17th.
So Kenny Smith was a top 20 player?

[tpols]

So you mean circumstances heavily factor into such things, and can result in players being placed far from their actual ranking? I had no idea.

And there was no such thing included in Bosh 2007 MVP ranking. His teammates were relatively speaking bums and he was by far their best player. TJ Ford peaked at 14 ppg. He wasn't some stud and the rest of the team was mediocre to trash at best.

[RRR3]

Listen. You guys need to come with better arguments. If RRR3 has to dig back 30+ years to find an outlier that can be explained perfectly contextually to discount a perfectly valid point yall NEED Jesus.
Carlos Boozer and Julius Randle both finished top 10 in MVP voting. You don't really have to dig. Jermaine O'Neal finished THIRD, he received 2 first place votes over peak KG. You have no real point here unless you're ready to admit Jermaine O'Neal was better than prime Kobe.

[Kblaze8855]

Listen. You guys need to come with better arguments. If RRR3 has to dig back 30+ years to find an outlier that can be explained perfectly contextually to discount a perfectly valid point yall NEED Jesus.

I’ve been around you long enough to know when you’re pretending to be dumber than you are. This is one of those times. You might like Bosh(you don’t…you hate Lebron) but you aren’t stupid enough to think everyone all nba second team or top 10 in mvp voting is top 10 in the league. You just arent.

[RRR3]

And there was no such thing included in Bosh 2007 MVP ranking. His teammates were relatively speaking bums and he was by far their best player. TJ Ford peaked at 14 ppg. He wasn't some stud and the rest of the team was mediocre to trash at best.
Funnily enough Kyrie Irving has literally never received a single vote for MVP. Are you ready to admit he's not that good?

[Kblaze8855]

And there was no such thing included in Bosh 2007 MVP ranking. His teammates were relatively speaking bums and he was by far their best player. TJ Ford peaked at 14 ppg. He wasn't some stud and the rest of the team was mediocre to trash at best.


Mhmm. Circumstances didn’t exist in 07. Wade and Shaq missing half the season cost them no mvp votes at all.

Playing dumb is only worth it when it’s funny.

[SouBeachTalents]

Blaze just provided a perfect example in Randle, DeRozan & Siakam also achieved the heralded All-NBA 2nd team/top 10 MVP voting threshold as well. You'll have to concede all 3 of these guys were top 10 players in the league if Bosh was in '07.

On the flipside, you'll also have to concede Bosh was not a top 15 player in 12 of his 13 seasons in the league since he missed the All-NBA team in every one of those years.

[RRR3]

Blaze just provided a perfect example in Randle, DeRozan & Siakam also achieved the heralded All-NBA 2nd team/top 10 MVP voting threshold as well. You'll have to concede all 3 of these guys were top 10 players in the league if Bosh was in '07.

On the flipside, you'll also have to concede Bosh was not a top 15 players in 12 of his 13 seasons in the league.
He said Siakam was better than Giannis so he probably agrees on that one.

[SATAN]

tinfoilpols getting obliterated itt

[Axe]

And there was no such thing included in Bosh 2007 MVP ranking. His teammates were relatively speaking bums and he was by far their best player. TJ Ford peaked at 14 ppg. He wasn't some stud and the rest of the team was mediocre to trash at best.
Breathe, buddy. Breathe.

[tpols]

I’ve been around you long enough to know when you’re pretending to be dumber than you are.


There's never been a single instance where you wouldn't have said that's the case. That's the go to.

[RRR3]

GTFO. :roll:

There's never been a single instance where you wouldn't have said that's the case. That's the go to.
Why has Kyrie never been a top 20 player? No MVP votes :(

[tpols]

Breathe, buddy. Breathe.

I... can always count on you Axey baby. :lol I was about to rage... seriously... but you helped me be calm and tranquil for now. Thank you friend.

[Kblaze8855]

There's never been a single instance where you wouldn't have said that's the case. That's the go to.

Nah. Sometimes we just fully disagree. Sometimes you get dug in and pretend you dont realize what you said is stupid.

You know there have been many not top 10 all nba second teamers and top 10 mvp vote getters. You know it. Don’t think it. You know it to be factually true. You’re just in one of your childish moods where you can’t admit it.

[ImKobe]

Nor did one of the most “The regular season doesn’t matter” prone people I ever met point out he did 17.5 ppg on the playoffs on worse TS than Iversons playoff career average which I’ve seen him call attention to. Got beat in the first round in 6 by a .500 Nets team being eliminated in a 1 point games where Bosh was 8-22. A game 6 they only got to by virtue of his teammates stepping up when he was 3-11 for 11 points and the only negative(-9) in the starting lineup in game 5. Jose Calderon got him that one. One of 3 total playoff wins in 7 seasons in Toronto.

Not the way I’d choose to look at it but the selective use of such logic by some is hilarious.

Ok, he put up 24/9/4 on 56%TS the next Playoffs, and that's still years before his 2010 season and before he went to Miami. I think people are allowed to have a bad shooting series in their first Playoff series ever.

My comparison had nothing to do with Bosh and Tatum as players, it's merely where Bosh was at 2010 and where Tatum is right now statistically this season, and relative to the talent in the league.

Why do people who have claimed that the league is better than ever take this comparison so seriously? Isn't the league more deeper now, with more better players? At no point did anyone here say that Bosh was as good as Tatum, but you choose to take it that way.

[ImKobe]

On the flipside, you'll also have to concede Bosh was not a top 15 player in 12 of his 13 seasons in the league since he missed the All-NBA team in every one of those years.

He definitely was a top 15 player in 2010. All-NBA isn't about who's top 15 in the league really, since positions matter. Late 2000s was a stacked era for forwards with KD coming along as well, but if you actually think it out he was among the 15 best players in the league probably for 3-4 seasons there. I think he deserved All-NBA over Pau in 2010 when he was top 10 in scoring and top 5 in PER. Bosh carried a significantly bigger load on offense while being just as efficient, and played 70 games to Pau's 65 that season. Pau got the votes because he was on a title contender tho. :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Nah. Sometimes we just fully disagree. Sometimes you get dug in and pretend you dont realize what you said is stupid.

You know there have been many not top 10 all nba second teamers and top 10 mvp vote getters. You know it. Don’t think it. You know it to be factually true. You’re just in one of your childish moods where you can’t admit it.

Many players have been top 10 in MVP voting and All NBA 2nd team and had no case for top 10 in that given year?

Bullshit.

98-99% of the time they have cases.

We can nitpick outliers for any stat or accolade in the world. When the advanced metrics, All NBA teams, and MVP voting all triangulate towards the same outcome that's as rock solid a case that can possibly be made.

[1987_Lakers]

My God, tpols got destroyed in this thread. :oldlol:

[tpols]

And on the topic of this thread Jokic is a much better rebounder and passer than Lebron.

10 points is easy but it's the boards and dimes that will get you triple doubles.

[1987_Lakers]

Kenny Smith was 17th in MVP voting in 1991. He actually got more votes than Hakeem. The real mvp of the Rockets according to Ttrolls :lol

:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

So was DeAndre Jordan a top 5 player in the league in 2016?


tpols?


Funny thing is dude never takes this voted stuff seriously except the blue moon ocasions where it suits his agenda

[tpols]

tpols?


Funny thing is dude never takes this voted stuff seriously except the blue moon ocasions where it suits his agenda

DJ wasn't top 10 in MVP voting though. You're using one metric. I'm using 3 that all triangulate towards the same result.

[tpols]

I'm actually curious now.

Has there ever been a player that finished top 10 in MVP voting and All NBA 2nd team that didn't have a case for top 10 player? There probably has but it would be a very short list of guys with no case.

When you add advanced metrics to the triangulation I don't think there'd be a single player that wouldn't qualify.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm actually curious now.

Has there ever been a player that finished top 10 in MVP voting and All NBA 2nd team that didn't have a case for top 10 player? There probably has but it would be a very short list of guys with no case.

When you add advanced metrics to the triangulation I don't think there'd be a single player that wouldn't qualify.

2004 Peja


KG
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Dirk
T-Mac
Kidd
Pierce
Iverson
Ray Allen

All clearly better.

[tpols]

Can you guys Google that?

I don't want to hear about Kenny Smith placing 17th 30 years ago. You HAVE to make better cases than that fellas.

I want a triangulation of MVP voting, All NBA team, and advanced metrics.

I want just one players name. Let's see it.

[Xiao Yao You]

2004 Peja


KG
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Dirk
T-Mac
Kidd
Pierce
Iverson
Ray Allen

All clearly better.

clearly? Today you could certainly look at it a lot differently. Elite shooter over inefficient ones? McGrady never won a playoff series did he?

[tpols]

2004 Peja




Peja was top 10 in 2004.

He averaged 24/6/2 on absolute sniper 50/40/90 splits in a brutal defensive climate.

You just shot yourself right in the foot. :oldlol:

Peja was a beast that year.

[1987_Lakers]

clearly? Today you could certainly look at it a lot differently. Elite shooter over inefficient ones? McGrady never won a playoff series did he?

Peja better than prime T-Mac? :whatever:

[Xiao Yao You]

Peja was top 10 in 2004.

He averaged 24/6/2 on absolute sniper 50/40/90 splits in a brutal defensive climate.

You just shot yourself right in the foot. :oldlol:

Peja was a beast that year.

you could have empty stats or sub 40% shooters instead!

[SouBeachTalents]

Randle, DeRozan & Siakam would have pretty non-existent cases for being top 10, I know damn well tpols would not actually consider those dudes top 10 players if he wasn't peddling this agenda :lol Going back Vin Baker would fall into that category as well.

He still has not addressed this question, by this rationale, does this mean Bosh was not a top 15 player in 12 of his 13 seasons since he failed to make even an All-NBA 3rd Team.

[Kblaze8855]

Ok, he put up 24/9/4 on 56%TS the next Playoffs, and that's still years before his 2010 season and before he went to Miami. I think people are allowed to have a bad shooting series in their first Playoff series ever.

My comparison had nothing to do with Bosh and Tatum as players, it's merely where Bosh was at 2010 and where Tatum is right now statistically this season, and relative to the talent in the league.

Why do people who have claimed that the league is better than ever take this comparison so seriously? Isn't the league more deeper now, with more better players? At no point did anyone here say that Bosh was as good as Tatum, but you choose to take it that way.


You say what he did in 08 as if it either

A. Matters at all when you lose in 5 and get the only win courtesy of TJ and Calderon

B. Is impressive if it mattered or not.

There isn’t a great player in history for whom 24/9 on 47/14/83 in 40 minutes while being destroyed is noteworthy. Carlos Boozer was having 24/14 60% series they won and absolutely nobody cares because it isn’t significant. It’s the kinda thing David West does and you never hear about it again because it’s nothing to care about.

He had a playoff career that would embarrass people getting clowned for coming up short in the playoffs. Bosh wishes he had the playoff performances of an Embiid or even a Tatum who also gets questioned for whatever reason.

Guy has nothing to talk about accomplishment wise in the playoffs and while being discussed by people who say “But in the playoffs where it matters….” in 75% of their arguments it just seemed odd to have regular season accomplishments so heavily leaned on. Especially when they aren’t even spectacular ones. It’s basically being Julius Randle except Randle has already made more all nba teams(including a second team).

At least with Kevin Love you can point to him having amazing production even if not winning.

Bosh was a Vin Baker, Boozer, or…hell…warriors Jamison type far as the numbers to expect , won 3 playoff games in 7 years, got outplayed by his guards in 2 of those wins, didn’t even get over .500 for the 3 years before joining the Heat and has his whole pre Heat career being defended in this topic by having less all nba accolades than Julius Randle does now.

Great player. But relative to players considered great?


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2403052131210358.gif




He stands out if the company you compare him to are Juwan Howard, Antione Walker, Shareef, David Lee/West and guys like that?

You take that one tiny blip up into the category of Rasheed, Jermaine O’Neal, Pau, Love and so on? Hell Marion. Larry Johnson. Derrick Coleman. Kemp.

That next level where they are HOF talents but a lot needs to go right and they have to land on the right team and stay healthy?

Among those guys not only is he not special he’s on the back end.

Chris Bosh was no better than Antonio Mcdyess.

Which means…he was really good. And he stayed healthy.

And as a 10 time all star he certainly earned his spot in the hall considering who else is already there. But he’s a basketball hall type…not the type who(by level) would ever make the baseball or football halls. It’s still an honor and he was obviously a great player…just…not the kinda great “great” usually refers to.

[Kblaze8855]

Far as why he’s being compared to Tatum I can’t say. I wasn’t there at the start. But it was definitely said he was as good as Tatum here



Tatum is nice but he isn't doing shit on the mid 2000s Raptors. He's been pampered his whole career on a great Franchise and isn't really better at all.




Which I don’t even care about. I don’t think he is and he’s definitely had a worse career as a team leader but that is partly circumstantial.

He was a middling star for a long time. He just wasn’t a top player. And nobody ever acted like he was as good as the random per listings and so on fans post now as if they genuinely think he was better than Kobe because of that nonsense.

He just got a rewrite because people have to prop up Lebrons teammates just as his fans have to tear them down. Just the other end of you types always talking up anyone Lebron played with. It’s all bullshit.

Kyrie, Bosh, Pippen, Klay, Love, Rodman, Draymond, Pau and to a lesser degree Wade all get caught up in it with exactly who one would guess repping and shitting on all of them based entirely on which of their famous teammates the speaker spent years hating on or defending.

The few of us who have been here long enough have preexisting opinions that can be verified but most of you just pop in and all exactly where one would assume. Makes it hard to assume it’s anything but what it looks like.

It never goes the other way. Everyone always supports or hates on exactly who their arguments on Lebron/Jordan/Kobe/Curry would make you figure.

Doesnt feel weird to you that nobody seems to rep both Bosh and Pippen? Or Kyrie and Draymond? Not telling that the primary Pau backers who say he should have been finals mvp think Pippen was amazing? That Kobe fans who don’t respect Pau have so much respect for Love and Bosh?

So many of you types don’t predate the arguments I can’t help but assume your reasons when you all fall exactly into line across the board. I didn’t **** with Bosh or Love in Toronto and Minny and I can show you posts to prove it. I always like Kyries game. Repped Pippen on here 20 years ago. Pippen and Jordan were still in the league when I got here.

Ive been saying pretty much the same thing forever. I feel like I don’t know the untarnished opinions of anyone to get here after all this madness began.

Its all just one big argument over the same thing with different names pushed to the front to fit the situation.

[tpols]

you could have empty stats or sub 40% shooters instead!

:lol

It's so funny how these clowns try to argue but can't make a solid argument.

And then when they nitpick an outlier it turns out that guy had rock solid case as well that year.

Peja would be filthy in this era with his shooting ability. 24 ppg on sniper splits in the pre-rule changes 2004 era of depressed scoring is like 30+ ppĝ today.

[Kblaze8855]

:lol

It's so funny how these clowns try to argue but can't make a solid argument.

And then when they nitpick an outlier it turns out that guy had rock solid case as well that year.

Peja would be filthy in this era with his shooting ability. 24 ppg on sniper splits in the pre-rule changes 2004 era of depressed scoring is like 30+ ppĝ today.



An all nba second team player being worse than top 10 isn’t an outlier. Outliers don’t happen that often. Peja was second team while Dirk was third. You can choose not to say so but you know he wasn’t a better player. And nobody thinks 26 year old Kobe wasn’t top 10 either. Just like you’ve never seen Randle in a top 10 list. The two things are entirely different issues.

[Xiao Yao You]

An all nba second team player being worse than top 10 isn’t an outlier. Outliers don’t happen that often. Peja was second team while Dirk was third. You can choose not to say so but you know he wasn’t a better player. And nobody thinks 26 year old Kobe wasn’t top 10 either. The two things are entirely different issues.

Having a better career doesn't mean they were better than someone every year of their career

[tpols]

Having a better career doesn't mean they were better than someone every year of their career

Bingo.

2005 Kobe wasn't even close to top 10 that year. Other years he was. Dirk is generally better than Peja by a pretty big amount. In the 2004 regular season he wasn't. Advanced metrics and shooting splits Peja happened to play better that year. And the Kings even beat Dallas in the playoffs.

[dankok8]

Bosh was consistent. I'll give him that. He was a top 20 or 25 player for like 11 straight years but he was never top 10.

Neither was Peja ever top 10.

[ShawkFactory]

I think the entire point of this argument, and where it started, was to say that having a top 10 regular season doesn’t make someone a top 10 player. The playoffs bear out where the true elite players are, and in the case of Bosh in 07 it’s pretty clear that he wasn’t that.

[tpols]

Saying something with no proof doesn't mean anything. Make a case with data and context. I gave you the triple threat of MVP voting, All NBA team, and advanced metrics. Doesn't get any more solid than that.

This is a basketball court room. Make a case that encapsulates all angles. Don't dodge, dip, and duck like a weasel with deferments that don't hit on each point.

Provide a holistic all encompassing book of evidence and testimony. Saying something with no backing means nothing.

[SouBeachTalents]

Saying something with no proof doesn't mean anything. Make a case with data and context. I gave you the triple threat of MVP voting, All NBA team, and advanced metrics. Doesn't get any more solid than that.

This is a basketball court room. Make a case that encapsulates all angles. Don't dodge, dip, and duck like a weasel with deferments that don't hit on each point.

Provide a holistic all encompassing book of evidence and testimony. Saying something with no backing means nothing.
That's exactly what you've been doing when asked where Bosh ranks every other season of his career where he failed to make an All-NBA Team or garner a vote for MVP. Does this mean he was not a top 15 player in any season outside of '07?

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk is generally better than Peja by a pretty big amount. In the 2004 regular season he wasn't. Advanced metrics and shooting splits Peja happened to play better that year. And the Kings even beat Dallas in the playoffs.




Back to playing stupid I see. Playing as one of 5 all stars with 2 of the others playing your usual position might change your numbers as you adjust but it doesn’t change who you are. Peja went from a sidekick to an offense running through him with Webber out. Dirk went from being the whole focus to playing with Walker and Jamison often at the same time and getting less of his pet plays and less shots. That isn’t being worse. Thats circumstances changing your numbers.

Oh and Peja did 18 a game and shot 42 percent and 29 from 3 “Beating” Dirk in the playoffs who did 27/12. But we are just playing stupid now so…whatever.

I need to pack. Leaving Dallas in a moment. Speaking of which I ate at the mavs favorite restaurant


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2403052245190354.jpeg



Waiter told me the Dirk was amazing. And he actually set the price himself as they requested. I’d have ordered it out of general respect if I know I’d have to read you pretending to think he was suddenly worse in his prime at basketball than Peja for a year.

[tpols]

That's exactly what you've been doing when asked where Bosh ranks every other season of his career where he failed to make an All-NBA Team or garner a vote for MVP. Does this mean he was not a top 15 player in any season outside of '07?


He wasn't top 10 for the majority of his career. Nobody ever disputed that. But there was a small window of time where he was.

I mean shit... he had a top 3 PER in the whole league before joining Miami. Name a player that's done that and wasn't considered a star. Name one player. I want to hear this. :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Saying something with no proof doesn't mean anything. Make a case with data and context. I gave you the triple threat of MVP voting, All NBA team, and advanced metrics. Doesn't get any more solid than that.

This is a basketball court room. Make a case that encapsulates all angles. Don't dodge, dip, and duck like a weasel with deferments that don't hit on each point.

Provide a holistic all encompassing book of evidence and testimony. Saying something with no backing means nothing.

And then told me Peja had better advanced numbers than Dirk while also being higher in mvp and all nba. You and everyone walking this earth knows he wasn’t better at basketball. Common sense only needs to be supported vigorously to people who don’t have it to begin with.

if you are telling me Peja was better than Dirk in his prime you aren’t wrong. You are lying. You know it’s not true. You are just being a baby about it because you haven’t grown up enough to admit when you made a bad point. I know it. You know it. I’m happy to let you keep pretending though. Continue with someone who has not been reading your opinions for 10 years and knows you don’t even believe what you’re saying. Good day

[tpols]

Being better and playing better can be two separate things.

Kyrie isn't even close to being as good as prime Steph Curry. Yet for a small sliver of time Kyrie killed Curry.

You don't seem to be capable of grasping worse overall players can play better sometimes.

[ShawkFactory]

Saying something with no proof doesn't mean anything. Make a case with data and context. I gave you the triple threat of MVP voting, All NBA team, and advanced metrics. Doesn't get any more solid than that.

This is a basketball court room. Make a case that encapsulates all angles. Don't dodge, dip, and duck like a weasel with deferments that don't hit on each point.

Provide a holistic all encompassing book of evidence and testimony. Saying something with no backing means nothing.

You’re making a case solely with data. There’s no holistic approach you’re taking here.

[Im Still Ballin]

Peja wasn't better than Dirk but he did play the best basketball of his life in 2003-04 before Webber came back. Sacramento went 43-15 in 58 games without Webber; Stojakovic played in 57 of them, leading his team to a 43-14 record. He averaged 25.6 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 2.2 apg on 63% TS (123 TS+).

[Xiao Yao You]

Peja wasn't better than Dirk but he did play the best basketball of his life in 2003-04 before Webber came back. Sacramento went 43-15 in 58 games without Webber; Stojakovic played in 57 of them, leading his team to a 43-14 record. He averaged 25.6 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 2.2 apg on 63% TS (123 TS+).

but I'll take the guy that never won a playoff series or the guy that shot under 40% from the field

[Im Still Ballin]

but I'll take the guy that never won a playoff series or the guy that shot under 40% from the field

I'm sorry I don't follow. Who are we talking about here?

[Xiao Yao You]

I'm sorry I don't follow. Who are we talking about here?

take an educated guess. Peja is certainly a guy every team would want. Guys listed that teams wouldn't have wanted and I certainly wouldn't have no matter how great history thinks they were

[ShawkFactory]

take an educated guess. Peja is certainly a guy every team would want. Guys listed that teams wouldn't have wanted and I certainly wouldn't have no matter how great history thinks they were

Iverson and Melo.

[RRR3]

He wasn't top 10 for the majority of his career. Nobody ever disputed that. But there was a small window of time where he was.

I mean shit... he had a top 3 PER in the whole league before joining Miami. Name a player that's done that and wasn't considered a star. Name one player. I want to hear this. :lol
Hasan Whiteside was 7th in PER in 2016. Any Heat fan will tell you he was empty stats.

[LAL]

Peja better than prime T-Mac? :whatever:

Many players were better than 2004 TMac idiot. Especially Peja.

[RRR3]

Many players were better than 2004 TMac idiot. Especially Peja.
Still fuming T-Mac was better than your hero before injuries?

[tpols]

Back to playing stupid I see. Playing as one of 5 all stars with 2 of the others playing your usual position might change your numbers as you adjust but it doesn’t change who you are. Peja went from a sidekick to an offense running through him with Webber out.


And what happened after that?


Peja wasn't better than Dirk but he did play the best basketball of his life in 2003-04 before Webber came back. Sacramento went 43-15 in 58 games without Webber; Stojakovic played in 57 of them, leading his team to a 43-14 record. He averaged 25.6 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 2.2 apg on 63% TS (123 TS+).

That happened. :confusedshrug:

Running the team through Peja seemed to produce some really good results.

[RRR3]

And what happened after that?



That happened. :confusedshrug:

Running the team through Peja seemed to produce some really good results.
How come Kyrie has never received a single MVP vote? Role player?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

While I think Peja clearly had one of the 10 best seasons of ‘04, I don’t think that made him a Top 10 player per se. At any point in that season, if you were trying to win a championship, there were definitely 10 players you would’ve approved swapping him for, regardless of his purple patch.

[LAL]

Still fuming T-Mac was better than your hero before injuries?

Don't know about tmac (wtf) but your incredibly overrated idol has exposed himself (even before this) and ruined the lakers for 5 years straight. It's bad and you know it sissy.

[LAL]

I'm going to start posting more about this narcissist loser ****ing up my team for 5 years straight because i have all the time this week for you fatherless non skilled bronsexuals. I've been way too nice watching him game after game stat padding, dribbling 16 seconds going trough the flow deferring to his teammates when it matters (but hey he had 24 points & 9 asst duh). Missing playoffs with AD, bounced in first round and fighting for play-in spots??


As expected, he's a joke :oldlol: :oldlol::oldlol:

Keep focusing on that Bosh & Tatum comparison you f losers :roll:

[SATAN]

Saying something with no proof doesn't mean anything.

This coming from you? Really?! :oldlol: