Where do you rank Donovan Mitchell?

[RRR3]

He and the Cavs have been on fire lately (Cleveland is 16-1 in their last 17, including 8 in a row), but it's not really getting talked about. Obviously he is not on the same tier as guys like Jokic/Embiid/Giannis/Shai, but is he in the next tier? Where exactly would you rank him in the league? Top 10? Top 20? Lower? Higher?

For what it's worth he's averaging 28.5/5.5/6.3/1.9/0.5 on .476/.359/.863 shooting (60.1 TS%). He has an EPM of +8.8, which ranks in the 97th percentile and is 6th in the NBA, grading out extremely well on offense and even pretty solidly on defense. If you like more traditional box score based advanced stats, he has a 23.8 PER, .195 ws/48 and a 7.5 BPM.


And yes, "can't quit me" :rolleyes:

[FultzNationRISE]

I said it when he left Utah, I never really felt like his offensive output in the playoffs translated to uplifting the team. Not because of the results but because I observed it when they played. I felt he was a talented scorer, but a scorer with tunnel vision who doesnt really read the game and mainly just knows how to get his own points. It’s not an attitude or demeanor issue I think he’s just not adept in that area.

Cleveland’s first round disappointment last year confirmed my assessment pretty much to a tee. Whether or not enough has changed this season in terms of supporting cast and Mitchell’s own play I dont know. My suspicion is they are NOT a serious threat in the playoffs, but we wont know for sure until they start.

[Xiao Yao You]

being a turnstile on D doesn't help

[Carbine]

He doesn't have quite the cast to say he should be winning anything. If he lifts them to a WCF the perception of him will change to be a top tier player just below the likes of Booker.

[RRR3]

I said it when he left Utah, I never really felt like his offensive output in the playoffs translated to uplifting the team. Not because of the results but because I observed it when they played. I felt he was a talented scorer, but a scorer with tunnel vision who doesnt really read the game and mainly just knows how to get his own points. It’s not an attitude or demeanor issue I think he’s just not adept in that area.

Cleveland’s first round disappointment last year confirmed my assessment pretty much to a tee. Whether or not enough has changed this season in terms of supporting cast and Mitchell’s own play I dont know. My suspicion is they are NOT a serious threat in the playoffs, but we wont know for sure until they start.
I don't disagree but similar things were said about many guys who have won rings, though, so I don't think Mitchell is incapable of winning. I would say barring extremely fortunate circumstances he is incapable of winning as a first option, but absolutely could see him winning as a sidekick. He's a flawed player for sure, but by all metrics one of the more valuable guy in the league. So you don't want to put him in the same convo as the super top tier guys who don't have such drawbacks, but he's gotta be in the convo for top 15 at least by this point right?

[RRR3]

He doesn't have quite the cast to say he should be winning anything. If he lifts them to a WCF the perception of him will change to be a top tier player just below the likes of Booker.
I find him to be a very similar player to Booker honestly. But if Mitchell leads the Cavs to the WCF, he's the GOAT because that is impossible.

[Kblaze8855]

Cleveland’s first round disappointment last year confirmed my assessment pretty much to a tee.



it confirmed absolutely nothing. Much better players than Donovan. Mitchell have suffered much more crushing and unlikely defeats and played considerably worse and that also confirmed nothing. And if they go to the conference finals this year, it won’t confirm you were wrong. Players are who they are. Worse players than him have led great teams and better players than him have gone over a decade and not won a playoff series. All of that kind of shit is result based confirmation bias.

Most of that “learning how to win” shit is just that.

They aren’t gonna lose in the playoffs because you’re right or wrong. Theyre gonna lose because the Celtics and Bucks should definitely beat them and as many as 4 other matchups are a tossup or worse depending on health. They could absolutely lose to the Heat. Wouldnt be some major upset regardless of record. The Heat are talented and amazingly well coached.

Theyre definitely gonna lose eventually but it won’t be because of any missing “it” factor. The team just isn’t that good. They’re ok. But nobody expects them to do giant things just by looking at the roster and where their guys are development wise compared to at least 4 teams of prime, playoff tested, star studded lineups with MVPs and 4-5 stars.

[Xiao Yao You]

it confirmed absolutely nothing. Much better players than Donovan. Mitchell have suffered much more crushing and unlikely defeats and played considerably worse and that also confirmed nothing. And if they go to the conference finals this year, it won’t confirm you were wrong. Players are who they are. Worse players than him have led great teams and better players than him have gone over a decade and not won a playoff series. All of that kind of shit is result based confirmation bias.

Most of that “learning how to win” shit is just that.

They aren’t gonna lose in the playoffs because you’re right or wrong. Theyre gonna lose because the Celtics and Bucks should definitely beat them and as many as 4 other matchups are a tossup or worse depending on health. They could absolutely lose to the Heat. Wouldnt be some major upset regardless of record. The Heat are talented and amazingly well coached.

Theyre definitely gonna lose eventually but it won’t be because of any missing “it” factor. The team just isn’t that good. They’re ok. But nobody expects them to do giant things just by looking at the roster and where their guys are development wise compared to at least 4 teams of prime, playoff tested, star studded lineups with MVPs and 4-5 stars.

and yet Gobert was supposed to go to the conference finals with worse talent while not playing an 8th seed or being in a weak eastern conference :lol

[RRR3]

Kblaze would I be right in assuming you're a fan of Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley?

[Xiao Yao You]

can't quit me!

[FultzNationRISE]

it confirmed absolutely nothing.

Umm, I watched him play and he performed exactly as I described when he left Utah, and it was a contributing factor to their result. Not the only factor, but he was once again limited as a playmaker beyond seeking his own shot, and that was part of why they were upset by the lower seeded Knicks. The Cavs looked like the less organized, less competent offense, and much of that owed to Mitchell being the primary playmaker. It was the same situation we saw in Utah. He doesnt appear to adjust to playoff defenses well, except to just keep shooting, even when thats what the opponent wants. He’ll get his points but they arent productive points in terms of building a strategy off of. His basketball instincts are not strong for a first option. That is a fact.

So yes, him once again playing like the guy I described confirmed that he is the guy I described.

I never said he cant or wont be on a winning team in any capacity. I said his skillset relative to the role he played last year was a factor in why they lost last year. And that is a fact.

[Xiao Yao You]

he was a baseball player turned basketball player because of injury

[FultzNationRISE]

Contrast that with SGA, whom as I pointed out before was able to use himself perfectly as a decoy in the first half of OKC’s play-in game last year which got his teammates going, and then when the opponent adjusted in the second half to stop his teammates, Shai capitalized and punished them.

Guys have different abilities to read and react. It’s just not Mitchell’s strong suit. Therefore a team needs to adjust his ROLE accordingly, and not expect “hes our supirstaR so give him the ball and t@ke over!!”

If thats the role hes gonna play, then no he will never win. Period.

[Phoenix]

He's in the tier with Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Kyrie, Dame and Booker. Better on some nights, worse on others.

[Xiao Yao You]

He's in the tier with Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Kyrie, Dame and Booker. Better on some nights, worse on others.

He's not up with guys that do more than just score the basketball

[Phoenix]

He's not up with guys that do more than just score the basketball

I know your opinion of Donovan Mitchell. It's not worth the effort to contest anything you say where he's concerned.

[Xiao Yao You]

I know your opinion of Donovan Mitchell. It's not worth the effort to contest anything you say where he's concerned.

My opinion of him is the same as others that don't compete defensively or involve their teammates

[Phoenix]

My opinion of him is the same as others that don't compete defensively or involve their teammates

Good for you.

[NBAGOAT]

Top 10, really shown this stretch he’s a great floor raiser. He had offensive talent supporting him in Utah, most of this stretch was allen and role shooters playing around him. Garland has been pretty mediocre.

Best stats and defense of his career. He’s in 87 percentile on defense by epm this year and most cavs fans have said he’s really improved there

[RRR3]

Top 10, really shown this stretch he’s a great floor raiser. He had offensive talent supporting him in Utah, most of this stretch was allen and role shooters playing around him. Garland has been pretty mediocre.

Best stats and defense of his career. He’s in 87 percentile on defense by epm this year and most cavs fans have said he’s really improved there
Oh shit I misread the EPM column, he is doing that well in defense. That gives him a real case for top 10 if it's at all accurate. Btw, why does the EPM site always have incorrect TS% data? I generally find EPM accurate to what I see watching games (more than other stats I've seen), but this is baffling.

[Xiao Yao You]

Top 10, really shown this stretch he’s a great floor raiser. He had offensive talent supporting him in Utah, most of this stretch was allen and role shooters playing around him. Garland has been pretty mediocre.

Best stats and defense of his career. He’s in 87 percentile on defense by epm this year and most cavs fans have said he’s really improved there

he's obviously got the physical tools to play D. Actually trying helps though. Got a lot more talent around him in Cleveland and i assume better coaching

[RRR3]

He's in the tier with Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Kyrie, Dame and Booker. Better on some nights, worse on others.
I'd put Kyrie lower than the rest of those guys. Not based off ability, but something about him just makes teams underperform. I guess his general insanity perhaps. In a vacuum he's a fairly similar player to Mitchell and Booker though, although I think worse at defense.

[Xiao Yao You]

can't quit me!

[Phoenix]

I'd put Kyrie lower than the rest of those guys. Not based off ability, but something about him just makes teams underperform. I guess his general insanity perhaps. In a vacuum he's a fairly similar player to Mitchell and Booker though, although I think worse at defense.

I mean if I had to rank those guys he would probably be last. But I kind of steer clear of getting too caught up in rankings per se. I know what you mean about his actual effect on winning, over his career it doesn't quite align with his talent.

[RRR3]

I mean if I had to rank those guys he would probably be last. But I kind of steer clear of getting too caught up in rankings per se. I know what you mean about his actual effect on winning, over his career it doesn't quite align with his talent.
There has to be something intangible there, because ability wise he's similar to many guys who don't have that issue.

[BarberSchool]

I give him a solid “that bwoy good”, but no higher.

[Kblaze8855]

Umm, I watched him play and he performed exactly as I described when he left Utah, and it was a contributing factor to their result. Not the only factor, but he was once again limited as a playmaker beyond seeking his own shot, and that was part of why they were upset by the lower seeded Knicks. The Cavs looked like the less organized, less competent offense, and much of that owed to Mitchell being the primary playmaker. It was the same situation we saw in Utah. He doesnt appear to adjust to playoff defenses well, except to just keep shooting, even when thats what the opponent wants. He’ll get his points but they arent productive points in terms of building a strategy off of. His basketball instincts are not strong for a first option. That is a fact.

So yes, him once again playing like the guy I described confirmed that he is the guy I described.

I never said he cant or wont be on a winning team in any capacity. I said his skillset relative to the role he played last year was a factor in why they lost last year. And that is a fact.


It’s just a reworded version of the same victory lap taken by every hater across team sports for 50 years. The formula is easy.

You watch or hear about a player.

You find faults(everyone has them).

You predict they fail due to the faults.

95% of people will fail in a given season and plenty of the best will fail every season.

You say The failure proves you right.

it really doesn’t even matter who the subject is. They are going to have a fault or two. You could be talking about Bill Russell not being a go to scorer. Bird occasionally shaky shot selection, or defense versus quickness. You could be talking about Jordan not being a consistent outside shooter, and occasionally keeping his role players from getting all the touches they want.

Doesn’t matter who. You can say whatever fault you find is an issue and take their inevitable defeat as proof.

in reality, all that defeat means is that everybody is going to be defeated, and most of them are going to be defeated almost all the time. People don’t stop when the defeat takes longer than they said it would. They just raise the standard. We could be talking about people going from LeBron won’t last three years in the league because he can’t shoot which was said on here in 2003 to people saying well he isn’t as good as Jordan and Kareem because blah blah blah. We could be talking about people saying Lamar Jackson literally cannot play the quarterback position, and should be made a running back , and now he’s a two-time MVP and the standard is well…he has not been to the Super Bowl yet.

It doesn’t really matter what happens once the path is started down. Failure makes the criticism valid and success merely changes what failure is so it can always apply. Win 3 times…you failed to win 4. Therefore I was right. _____ came back to bite him. Cost his team.

as I hope you can tell this is an entirely about you. I’ve just been watching this shit on the Internet for well over 20 years and it just gets so old. It’s the same thing over and over again.

people not being perfect doesn’t make the people saying they aren’t perfect right whenever they fail. They aren’t perfect because nobody is. The failure is coming no matter what.

The main issue I have with such things is with people who want to act like one player is making everything happen, and then spaz on their teammates when the inevitable failure occurs. The failure is coming for everyone. The standards will be adjusted to make whoever the target is a failure to some degree. It’s funny when some idiot is giving total credit to someone who is supposedly gonna prevent it and then bending over backwards to give them no blame when they don’t…..

But even in that there is a little of both sides to see.

I think my problem is less with your particular comment and more with the definitive nature of takes, and what results mean to their validity.

Really the easiest thing to do is just call out the faults of everybody and take 29 victory laps at the end of the year and take solace in the fact that the one guy you can’t take the victory lap on is probably gonna lose 13 times before he retires.

[FultzNationRISE]

I remember hearing people directly involved in the Bulls saying "They got over the hump once Michael learned x" or "started trusting y" etc.

Nobody wins or loses on their own, but when you observe a guy's flaws and you see them specifically born out in a series and they lose in an upset as the home courted seed (in Mitchell's case)... I think it's fair to call that player a factor in the loss.

I'm not just saying I'm right 'because they lost.' I'm saying that what I said about his playoff effectiveness at the time of the trade, is exactly what happened again on the court in his first Cleveland playoff, and I saw it with my own eyes. And those shortcomings in his game were clearly a factor in their upset loss.

[iamgine]

This season I have him 6th. Superstar level.

[Manny98]

This season top 8-12, definitely better than Lillar

[RRR3]

Dame has been disappointing but he is getting old.

[Kblaze8855]

I remember hearing people directly involved in the Bulls saying "They got over the hump once Michael learned x" or "started trusting y" etc.

Nobody wins or loses on their own, but when you observe a guy's flaws and you see them specifically born out in a series and they lose in an upset as the home courted seed (in Mitchell's case)... I think it's fair to call that player a factor in the loss.

I'm not just saying I'm right 'because they lost.' I'm saying that what I said about his playoff effectiveness at the time of the trade, is exactly what happened again on the court in his first Cleveland playoff, and I saw it with my own eyes. And those shortcomings in his game were clearly a factor in their upset loss.

Of course, people say it that way because it’s the simplest way to describe it. I find what Barkley said about it a lot more true.



“That’s bulls**t. I and Michael Jordan always get a bad reputation. All you ever hear is that Magic and Bird are the only ones who make their teammates better. My thing is, who is it easier to make better—James Worthy, Kevin McHale, or Jayson Williams.”






And every perceptible flaw is a factor in every loss. Anytime the other team scores more than yours you could’ve done something better to make that less likely. And that something you could’ve done better is generally something that could be considered a flaw. That doesn’t mean the thing a person haters harp on is the individual reason the team lost.

At its simplest you could just say every great players losses could be avoided by being greater. Either have smaller flaws or bigger positives. Be better.

But the problem is…if everyone were perfect?

Youd have precisely as many losers. The games won’t end up tied. Even if you had to play till exhaustion forced enough people out of the game for a forfeit. Someone is gonna lose.

So is it the flaws causing it? Or is it the inevitable result of competition?

we all want to be right, so we tend to tie failure to the specific things we predicted would cause it, but it’s rarely true. Especially these days. It takes so much to win and so much to lose….the individual traits one person has are tough to exploit to the extent it’s the whole reason anything happened.

Id say certain defensive issues can make one player a huge problem if they can’t offset it on the other end. People who can’t shoot make it easier to double their teammates. A lot of things like that are a factor…but the problem is we watch teams go through those problems and lose….blame the problem player….

And ignore that they weren’t gonna win anyway.

And that teams that don’t have that problem are also going to lose. The simple truth is you’re just going to lose. You’re going to lose almost all the time no matter what. Build a super team and keep them together for 15 years. They’re still gonna lose 70% of the time.

Won’t make the detractors right when they say the things they pointed out previously are the reason they lost. But they’re going to say it. They’re going to say it does every single time. Take out a magic wand and fix whatever the greatest flaw in anybody is they’re still gonna lose 12-15 times.

Doesn’t mean every detractor is right. It means pointing out that somebody isn’t perfect and waiting for the results to suggest they aren’t is the easiest thing to do in the world.

[NBAGOAT]

he's obviously got the physical tools to play D. Actually trying helps though. Got a lot more talent around him in Cleveland and i assume better coaching

But he doesn’t have a lot more talent. Utah was very talented his last few years

[Xiao Yao You]

But he doesn’t have a lot more talent. Utah was very talented his last few years

Closest Gobert ever had to Mobley was the last legs of Joe Johnson and the corpse of Boris Diaw so no. Could argue Conley over Garland for intangibles. Cavs had a great D last year even without the generations best defender while the Jazz had Gobert trying to stop teams mostly by himself

[Kblaze8855]

The Cavs are absolutely not more talented than the jazz were.

[Xiao Yao You]

The Cavs are absolutely not more talented than the jazz were.

Guess it depends on how much better you think Gobert is than Allen and since we know you think Gobert is basically the same player as him, Capela, Jordan etc. than no it's not really close. Cavs offense and defense is even better this year relative to the league than last year and they had a lot better D than the Jazz had the last couple years when COTM put it all on Gobert. 5th in point difference. I'd venture to say better coaching since COTM has never won without Gobert. Guessing Bickerstaff makes adjustments in game? Got to wonder where his next stop will be after the awful job in Atlanta. Gobert never had a Mobley unless you think Favors from the corner compares. No Bum gumming up the works. No backup in The Matador playing a big role.

[Kblaze8855]

Regardless of what anyone else thinks of him you think Gobert is an elite player. You think he’s better than Mitchell. Mitchell is the best player on the Cavs. So you’re starting with a player supposedly better than him. Adding the other teams best player. And going from there. That’s quite a bit to catch up on with Conley probably the next best player on either team.

having Mitchell on both teams while you think the Jazz also had a better player, makes it a very tough hill to climb.

[tpols]

My opinion of him is the same as others that don't compete defensively or involve their teammates

You literally hate on Jason Kidd when he's the best defensive point guard of all time and was a great passer and floor general. So if a guys strength is scoring but he sucks at defense and passing like mitchell you hate. If a guys strength is defense and passing but sucks at scoring like Kidd you hate. You just aren't consistent with what you like at all.

[tpols]

Closest Gobert ever had to Mobley was the last legs of Joe Johnson and the corpse of Boris Diaw so no. Could argue Conley over Garland for intangibles. Cavs had a great D last year even without the generations best defender while the Jazz had Gobert trying to stop teams mostly by himself

What? Prime Gordon Hayward was a beast and way better than Mobley.

[Xiao Yao You]

Regardless of what anyone else thinks of him you think Gobert is an elite player. You think he’s better than Mitchell. Mitchell is the best player on the Cavs. So you’re starting with a player supposedly better than him. Adding the other teams best player. And going from there. That’s quite a bit to catch up on with Conley probably the next best player on either team.

having Mitchell on both teams while you think the Jazz also had a better player, makes it a very tough hill to climb.

Have no opinion of Mitchell currently. Haven't watched him. On the Jazz Gobert was certainly their best player from at least December of 2014 until the time he left and it would be hard to argue otherwise with any facts in hand. Awful team without Gobert on the floor most of that time. A very good team with him on the floor. How many so called elite players carried otherwise bad teams during that time? Without Mitchell on the floor they were actually better for some strange reason? Playing one end of the floor? Ignoring the other 4 guys at the other end? COTM letting him and The Bum do their thing with no regard to their teammates?

I'm starting with Allen because he is a poor man's Gobert or in your case basically the same player. Mitchell and Niang remain. Garland and Conley you can argue not statistically though. Mobley is certainly unlike anyone Gobert ever got to play with. Than it's the role players. I can't imagine the Cavs have anyone as bad as The Bum do they? If they do the coach certainly isn't letting them play a major role. Obviously Ingles was special until his last year

[Xiao Yao You]

You literally hate on Jason Kidd when he's the best defensive point guard of all time and was a great passer and floor general. So if a guys strength is scoring but he sucks at defense and passing like mitchell you hate. If a guys strength is defense and passing but sucks at scoring like Kidd you hate. You just aren't consistent with what you like at all.

not a fan of guys that can't shoot thinking they should be shooting. I'm very consistent in that

[Xiao Yao You]

What? Prime Gordon Hayward was a beast and way better than Mobley.

Hayward wasn't playing the 4 unfortunately so hard to compare him with a 4. We're comparing Mobley with 6'4" O'Neale, Favors spotting up in the corner, the brief promise that was Trey Lyles, the last legs of Joe Johnson, the corpse of Boris Diaw and the inefficient 8 3's a game from Crowder. Hayward was certainly better than Mitchell ever was in Utah. And that was as close as the Jazz ever got to building a team around their best player and that only happened because Favors was hurt and COTM was forced to play the last legs of Joe Jonson and the corpse of Boris Diaw

[Xiao Yao You]

Now if he'd been able to play with Millsap or Lauri we'd be having a different conversation all together

[NBAGOAT]

prime gobert is better than allen but allen is really damn good. Shouldve gotten some consideration for all star this year. Conley was an all star his best year too even now a big reason minnesota is so good. Bojan was a really good starter 20ppg guy you're just forgetting and he was their 4th guy, ingles and "the bum" off the bench was loaded.

whoever the cavs played at the 3 was worse than "the bum" last year. Strus is pretty good especially compared to what the cavs had last year but just a role player. Not that much better than someone like o'neale.

[FKAri]

Who is "the bum" ?

[RRR3]

prime gobert is better than allen but allen is really damn good. Shouldve gotten some consideration for all star this year. Conley was an all star his best year too even now a big reason minnesota is so good. Bojan was a really good starter 20ppg guy you're just forgetting and he was their 4th guy, ingles and "the bum" off the bench was loaded.

whoever the cavs played at the 3 was worse than "the bum" last year. Strus is pretty good especially compared to what the cavs had last year but just a role player. Not that much better than someone like o'neale.
Strus sucks speaking as a Heat fan. Low iq chucker.

[Xiao Yao You]

prime gobert is better than allen but allen is really damn good. Shouldve gotten some consideration for all star this year. Conley was an all star his best year too even now a big reason minnesota is so good. Bojan was a really good starter 20ppg guy you're just forgetting and he was their 4th guy, ingles and "the bum" off the bench was loaded.

whoever the cavs played at the 3 was worse than "the bum" last year. Strus is pretty good especially compared to what the cavs had last year but just a role player. Not that much better than someone like o'neale.

prime Gobert is still going

Conley was an all-star replacement. I'm sure the Grizzlies would argue rather it was his best year though. Bojan would have been a really good 6th man. Not someone you want starting on a good team especially when he's your 2nd biggest player and doesn't rebound or defend. The Bum certainly isn't anyone that has a clues idea of loaded. If you're the opposition you're certainly happy if he's on the floor. Take anyone on Cavs over The Bum. Make the contracts work out. Done deal!

[Xiao Yao You]

can't quit me!

[Xiao Yao You]

Who is "the bum" ?

https://cdn.nba.com/headshots/nba/latest/1040x760/203903.png

[Xiao Yao You]

let's not forget The Matador was coming off the Cavs bench last year. A role that he was born for not the one where he's starting with Favors in each corner

[Xiao Yao You]

While we're at it can someone explain to me why COTM can't win games with the Hawks? He's got his Gobert supposedly. He's got his Mitchell and Conley. How much help does he need?

[NBAGOAT]

Strus sucks speaking as a Heat fan. Low iq chucker.

he's still chucking but cavs fans really like his passing and defense this year. Anyone wouldve been an improvement over the crap they played last year tbf

[RRR3]

he's still chucking but cavs fans really like his passing and defense this year. Anyone wouldve been an improvement over the crap they played last year tbf
I guess he’s improved because he was a bad defender on the Heat. Not completely helpless but he made silly fouls way too much.

[NBAGOAT]

prime Gobert is still going

Conley was an all-star replacement. I'm sure the Grizzlies would argue rather it was his best year though. Bojan would have been a really good 6th man. Not someone you want starting on a good team especially when he's your 2nd biggest player and doesn't rebound or defend. The Bum certainly isn't anyone that has a clues idea of loaded. If you're the opposition you're certainly happy if he's on the floor. Take anyone on Cavs over The Bum. Make the contracts work out. Done deal!

if prime gobert is still going then prime allen is on his lvl is what you're saying lol. 2.6epm to 2.3epm and clearly better on offense. He's clearly the 2nd best player on a top 5 team. Gobert is not that most likely 3rd guy on minnesota.

Conley was an all star replacement but shouldve been a clear pick. Underrated because he didnt have big scoring numbers. Current garland isnt even close to an all star. Bojan is absolutely a starter on a good team, easily good enough to be a 4th guy. His shooting elevates any team. 2nd biggest player isnt ideal. You know what else isnt ideal? Having 2 centers in your starting lineup who cant shoot and a sf who's not starting on bad team(okoro/lamar stevens etc). It's simple logic if mitchell had less talent in utah how were they a 1 seed in 21 in the stronger west yet the cavs were a 4 seed in 23. The jazz had more talent unless mitchell was a way better player with the jazz and he wasnt.

Finally "the bum" has been a positive player by epm 4 of the last 5 years, he's a player multiple good teams had interest in. You just wont quit that talking point because you're an imbecile

[Xiao Yao You]

if prime gobert is still going then prime allen is on his lvl is what you're saying lol. 2.6epm to 2.3epm and clearly better on offense. He's clearly the 2nd best player on a top 5 team. Gobert is not that most likely 3rd guy on minnesota.

Conley was an all star replacement but shouldve been a clear pick. Underrated because he didnt have big scoring numbers. Current garland isnt even close to an all star. Bojan is absolutely a starter on a good team, easily good enough to be a 4th guy. His shooting elevates any team. 2nd biggest player isnt ideal. You know what else isnt ideal? Having 2 centers in your starting lineup who cant shoot and a sf who's not starting on bad team(okoro/lamar stevens etc). It's simple logic if mitchell had less talent in utah how were they a 1 seed in 21 in the stronger west yet the cavs were a 4 seed in 23. The jazz had more talent unless mitchell was a way better player with the jazz and he wasnt.

Finally "the bum" has been a positive player by epm 4 of the last 5 years, he's a player multiple good teams had interest in. You just wont quit that talking point because you're an imbecile

I'm not saying Allen is on his level. That's Kblaze's bag.

What makes him clearly better on offense? Having a bigger role? Scoring more? Conley certainly understands Gobert's value at that end as he's talked about. Minnesota wouldn't take Towns over Gobert nor would anyone interested in winning games

Yeah Conley was their 2nd best player. Garland has been an all-star and just turned 24

I wouldn't want Bojan starting. Can shoot and score. Little else. 6th man

The Jazz were the top seed because they were the last team to have guys miss games because of covid so they got off to a great start and hung on. Had the top offense at the cost of their once vaunted D. Also the Cavs don't have Gobert obviously

The Bum : 42% lowest of career/29% 3pt on 6 att a game lowest % of career/49% 2 pt lowest in 8 years/47% efg% lowest of his career/3 TO 2n worst of his career last year the worst/106 ORtg worst in 6 years/103 DRtg worst of career/12 per worst of career/52 TS worst in 8 years/14 TO% worst of career/all shooting numbers well below league average/-.1 OWS worst of career/.3 DWS worst in 5 years/WS .3 worst of career/ws per 48 .01 worst of career/-1.4 OBPM worst of career/-3.1 DBPM worst of career/-4.5 BPM worst of career and was 5th worst in league a short time a go. Might have went down after his recent 3-26 from 3 stretch?/=.8 vorp worst of career/FG add -101 worst of career/TS add -87 worst of career/on court -3 worst in 5 years/off court/ on off -4 worst in 7 years/60 % 0-3 FT worst in 8 years/48% 3-10 ft worst in 5 years/43% 10-16 ft worst in 4 years

You are right about me being an imbecile. He's having a career year! How'd I miss all that with the simple eye test? Can't believe teams didn't want to make a better offer for him! :roll:

[SATAN]

Jesus. What a meltdown.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jesus. What a meltdown.

Axe?

[RRR3]

if prime gobert is still going then prime allen is on his lvl is what you're saying lol. 2.6epm to 2.3epm and clearly better on offense. He's clearly the 2nd best player on a top 5 team. Gobert is not that most likely 3rd guy on minnesota.

Conley was an all star replacement but shouldve been a clear pick. Underrated because he didnt have big scoring numbers. Current garland isnt even close to an all star. Bojan is absolutely a starter on a good team, easily good enough to be a 4th guy. His shooting elevates any team. 2nd biggest player isnt ideal. You know what else isnt ideal? Having 2 centers in your starting lineup who cant shoot and a sf who's not starting on bad team(okoro/lamar stevens etc). It's simple logic if mitchell had less talent in utah how were they a 1 seed in 21 in the stronger west yet the cavs were a 4 seed in 23. The jazz had more talent unless mitchell was a way better player with the jazz and he wasnt.

Finally "the bum" has been a positive player by epm 4 of the last 5 years, he's a player multiple good teams had interest in. You just wont quit that talking point because you're an imbecile
You actually think Clarkson is good? He's been pretty bad this year at least. I don't think EPM is flawless.

[NBAGOAT]

You actually think Clarkson is good? He's been pretty bad this year at least. I don't think EPM is flawless.

He’s been not good this year but he can be useful on some decent teams. He’s historically not been a sieve defensively and now he has some playmaking ability. Finally he’s someone teams have to cover at the 3pt line even though he doesn’t shoot it too well, that makes up somewhat for his inefficiency and chucking. Would’ve been a help for the Knicks for example before they pivoted to the pistons deal.

[NBAGOAT]

I'm not saying Allen is on his level. That's Kblaze's bag.

What makes him clearly better on offense? Having a bigger role? Scoring more? Conley certainly understands Gobert's value at that end as he's talked about. Minnesota wouldn't take Towns over Gobert nor would anyone interested in winning games

Yeah Conley was their 2nd best player. Garland has been an all-star and just turned 24

I wouldn't want Bojan starting. Can shoot and score. Little else. 6th man

The Jazz were the top seed because they were the last team to have guys miss games because of covid so they got off to a great start and hung on. Had the top offense at the cost of their once vaunted D. Also the Cavs don't have Gobert obviously

The Bum : 42% lowest of career/29% 3pt on 6 att a game lowest % of career/49% 2 pt lowest in 8 years/47% efg% lowest of his career/3 TO 2n worst of his career last year the worst/106 ORtg worst in 6 years/103 DRtg worst of career/12 per worst of career/52 TS worst in 8 years/14 TO% worst of career/all shooting numbers well below league average/-.1 OWS worst of career/.3 DWS worst in 5 years/WS .3 worst of career/ws per 48 .01 worst of career/-1.4 OBPM worst of career/-3.1 DBPM worst of career/-4.5 BPM worst of career and was 5th worst in league a short time a go. Might have went down after his recent 3-26 from 3 stretch?/=.8 vorp worst of career/FG add -101 worst of career/TS add -87 worst of career/on court -3 worst in 5 years/off court/ on off -4 worst in 7 years/60 % 0-3 FT worst in 8 years/48% 3-10 ft worst in 5 years/43% 10-16 ft worst in 4 years

You are right about me being an imbecile. He's having a career year! How'd I miss all that with the simple eye test? Can't believe teams didn't want to make a better offer for him! :roll:

You said prime gobert is still in Minnesota. I’m the one saying allen is just as good as prime gobert since he’s been on goberts lvl this year. How do you know Minnesota wouldn’t take towns ocer gobert? The league did picking him for all star and not gobert. Allen is more efficient since he’s a better ft shooter, has more skills scoring in the paint(has a good floater) so scores more and has legitimate passing ability. Averages almost 3 apg gobert has never come close to that. There’s almost nothing gobert does better on offense.

How many guys can shoot and score like Bojan? He’s a top 10 shooter in the league. That skillset is not only a starter but a good one. Defense is a flaw almost every 4th or 5th starter will have one just as big as wing defense. Aaron Gordon is better than Bojan but not be able to shoot is a huge flaw.

Most of the stats you listed are either efficiency stats or garbage like ws. Ofc they’re gonna underrate clarkson but he’s proven for me not to be a negative impact guy most of his career in Utah. Not just using impact stats like epm, eye test too. Multiple teams showed interest(Knicks were for sure one) but likely ainge wanted a first for him and no clarkson isn’t that valuable. He squeezed a first for olynyk somehow.

Your bias is obvious or you be complaining about sexton and his defense too all the time

[RRR3]

You said prime gobert is still in Minnesota. I’m the one saying allen is just as good as prime gobert since he’s been on goberts lvl this year. How do you know Minnesota wouldn’t take towns ocer gobert? The league did picking him for all star and not gobert. Allen is more efficient since he’s a better ft shooter, has more skills scoring in the paint(has a good floater) so scores more and has legitimate passing ability. Averages almost 3 apg gobert has never come close to that. There’s almost nothing gobert does better on offense.

How many guys can shoot and score like Bojan? He’s a top 10 shooter in the league. That skillset is not only a starter but a good one. Defense is a flaw almost every 4th or 5th starter will have one just as big as wing defense. Aaron Gordon is better than Bojan but not be able to shoot is a huge flaw.

Most of the stats you listed are either efficiency stats or garbage like ws. Ofc they’re gonna underrate clarkson but he’s proven for me not to be a negative impact guy most of his career in Utah. Not just using impact stats like epm, eye test too. Multiple teams showed interest(Knicks were for sure one) but likely ainge wanted a first for him and no clarkson isn’t that valuable. He squeezed a first for olynyk somehow.

Your bias is obvious or you be complaining about sexton and his defense too all the time
“I like guys who play defense and pass”
>hates Jason Kidd and Ricky Rubio
>Loves Adrian Dantley and Colin Sexton


“I like guys who are efficient”
>loves Chris Webber and says he should have shot more, thinks Anthony Edwards is elite.
>Hates Donovan Mitchell, Carlos Boozer, Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid


The 3ball of jazz fans.

[Xiao Yao You]

He’s been not good this year but he can be useful on some decent teams. He’s historically not been a sieve defensively and now he has some playmaking ability. Finally he’s someone teams have to cover at the 3pt line even though he doesn’t shoot it too well, that makes up somewhat for his inefficiency and chucking. Would’ve been a help for the Knicks for example before they pivoted to the pistons deal.

He's never been good. Some years he's been better at some things than others but other than free throw shooting there is nothing he's ever been good at. Getting assists doesn't give you playmaking abilities. He's just as likely to dribble off him self with his incessant pounding of the ball or throw it out of bounds as he is to make a play. Why do you have to cover him at the 3 point line when he's likely to miss it? Please shoot! He's not always been a sieve on D? His DRtg has always been higher than his ORtg. Never had a positive DBPM. Thibs would have benched him. Fournier is a lot better basketball player and he didn't play. Danny I'm sure wanted more than the Knicks were willing to pay. If Burks had been given the freedom The Bum was when he was here he would have been a lot better player because he is a lot better player. and always was. COTM didn't give him that same freedom for whatever reason? Tried to make him into something he wasn't

[Xiao Yao You]

You said prime gobert is still in Minnesota. I’m the one saying allen is just as good as prime gobert since he’s been on goberts lvl this year. How do you know Minnesota wouldn’t take towns ocer gobert? The league did picking him for all star and not gobert. Allen is more efficient since he’s a better ft shooter, has more skills scoring in the paint(has a good floater) so scores more and has legitimate passing ability. Averages almost 3 apg gobert has never come close to that. There’s almost nothing gobert does better on offense.

How many guys can shoot and score like Bojan? He’s a top 10 shooter in the league. That skillset is not only a starter but a good one. Defense is a flaw almost every 4th or 5th starter will have one just as big as wing defense. Aaron Gordon is better than Bojan but not be able to shoot is a huge flaw.

Most of the stats you listed are either efficiency stats or garbage like ws. Ofc they’re gonna underrate clarkson but he’s proven for me not to be a negative impact guy most of his career in Utah. Not just using impact stats like epm, eye test too. Multiple teams showed interest(Knicks were for sure one) but likely ainge wanted a first for him and no clarkson isn’t that valuable. He squeezed a first for olynyk somehow.

Your bias is obvious or you be complaining about sexton and his defense too all the time

You have other proof that Allen is better than the all star team? Gobert has been passed over at least 3 times now for worse players. Need more than that sorry. I don't know know they would take Gobert over Towns I guess since they have not been a very smart franchise but If winning is important than they would and I think the new ownership wants to win. Gobert has a proven record of making his teams good regardless of what crap is on his team. Towns has a history of losing when Butler, Edwards or Gobert aren't involved. More efficient? Gobert has a .649 EFG&% to .644 for Allen and that is the worst in 6 seasons for Gobert now that the offense doesn't revolve around him as it did in Utah. Gobert led the league 3 times in that. Allen shoots better at the line but Rudy makes more FT's because he draws more fouls. Gobert screens better. He has more rim gravity.

Bojan does one thing. That one thing would be best utilized off the bench which I'm guessing it will be in NY assuming Thibs plays him at all. I would have liked him off the bench in Utah. Gobert having to guard Bojan's man as well as Mitchell's and The Bum's was a big reason for their failures as a team.

Wow! The eye test is the biggest negative watching The Bum for me. Pound the ball. Throw up a prayer. Brick. Or pound the ball. Dribble it off himself for a turnover. Or pound the ball and throw it out of bounds. I can't imagine what kind of mindset it takes to play the way he does or how any coach or front office in their right mind would think he's good for a team. Sloan would have never played him for sure. What stats are we going to use if every shooting and defensive stat is garbage? Supposedly multiple teams have shown interest in The Bum for years but he still remains in Utah so how much interest do they really have? He got a first for Olynyk because Olynyk is a hell of a player and he gave up an athletic defender who was a lottery pick with a lot of upside with him.

Sexton is 25. The Bum is almost 32. He doesn't have the ideal body for a defender but he competes hard at both ends of the floor. He makes plays at that end with his hustle and fearlessness. There is absolutely nothing The Bum brings to the table that Sexton doesn't do better. Nothing! If defense was the biggest issue with The Bum I wouldnt be complaining about him they just add to the misery. Sexton is a joy to watch play basketball while watching The Bum makes me want to weep. The Jazz started playing good when Sexton and Dunn replaced The Bum and the not ready for prime time rookie not because of the brilliant coach but because of injuries.

What is this bias you talk about? Not liking crappy gunners? Not liking guys that play one end or no ends(in The Bum's case) of the court? I grew up playing the team sport of basketball. It's the way I like to see the game played. If that is a bias than I guess I'm guilty

[Xiao Yao You]

can't quit me!

[NBAGOAT]

You have other proof that Allen is better than the all star team? Gobert has been passed over at least 3 times now for worse players. Need more than that sorry. I don't know know they would take Gobert over Towns I guess since they have not been a very smart franchise but If winning is important than they would and I think the new ownership wants to win. Gobert has a proven record of making his teams good regardless of what crap is on his team. Towns has a history of losing when Butler, Edwards or Gobert aren't involved. More efficient? Gobert has a .649 EFG&% to .644 for Allen and that is the worst in 6 seasons for Gobert now that the offense doesn't revolve around him as it did in Utah. Gobert led the league 3 times in that. Allen shoots better at the line but Rudy makes more FT's because he draws more fouls. Gobert screens better. He has more rim gravity.

Bojan does one thing. That one thing would be best utilized off the bench which I'm guessing it will be in NY assuming Thibs plays him at all. I would have liked him off the bench in Utah. Gobert having to guard Bojan's man as well as Mitchell's and The Bum's was a big reason for their failures as a team.

Wow! The eye test is the biggest negative watching The Bum for me. Pound the ball. Throw up a prayer. Brick. Or pound the ball. Dribble it off himself for a turnover. Or pound the ball and throw it out of bounds. I can't imagine what kind of mindset it takes to play the way he does or how any coach or front office in their right mind would think he's good for a team. Sloan would have never played him for sure. What stats are we going to use if every shooting and defensive stat is garbage? Supposedly multiple teams have shown interest in The Bum for years but he still remains in Utah so how much interest do they really have? He got a first for Olynyk because Olynyk is a hell of a player and he gave up an athletic defender who was a lottery pick with a lot of upside with him.

Sexton is 25. The Bum is almost 32. He doesn't have the ideal body for a defender but he competes hard at both ends of the floor. He makes plays at that end with his hustle and fearlessness. There is absolutely nothing The Bum brings to the table that Sexton doesn't do better. Nothing! If defense was the biggest issue with The Bum I wouldnt be complaining about him they just add to the misery. Sexton is a joy to watch play basketball while watching The Bum makes me want to weep. The Jazz started playing good when Sexton and Dunn replaced The Bum and the not ready for prime time rookie not because of the brilliant coach but because of injuries.

What is this bias you talk about? Not liking crappy gunners? Not liking guys that play one end or no ends(in The Bum's case) of the court? I grew up playing the team sport of basketball. It's the way I like to see the game played. If that is a bias than I guess I'm guilty

allen over gobert has nothing to do with the all star team he didnt make one either lol. The all star point was about towns vs gobert. Coaches were included in the all star vote, are you saying their opinion doesnt matter at all? Allen has a higher ts% this year, that ft shooting is a huge edge and he has higher volume. also allen actually has a floater game unlike gobert who's just finishing. Gobert gets more fouls because of hack a gobert, i dont agree he has more rim gravity. O-epm is quite accurate, rudy is a +0.1 this year allen is a +1.9. You ofc completely ignore the passing aspect lol, that's a huge part of offense enough to make up any miniscule edge in rim gravity.

Bojan drives to the rim handles the ball in pnr etc. Do not act like he's 2020 duncan robinson lol. his defense was also not that bad in utah. He was never played off the floor in the playoffs. famously was the main guy guarding kawhi and did ok.

A bunch of teams across history have had a bench guy like clarkson. They'll take his inefficiency because they dont have talent on the bench and need anyone who can score. clarkson can playmake now just watching the games compared to his previous years where admittedly he did nothing. he's actually kicking out to shooters running pnr etc. Not everyone is chris paul, most guys who have playmaking responsibilities turn it over a lot. His percentages may be unimpressive but no team treats him like a non shooter on defense. I didnt say shooting stats were garbage just all the defense ones you used were. They're all box score based, you cant base defense off just the box score. Use EPM/Lebron etc. They're not great but better than individual drtg for christs sake lol. He's a negative defender but never a bottom 20% in the league type guy. Never a guy who got played off the floor in the playoffs for his defense like say a grayson allen.

You say you dont like guys who play one end, sexton may seem like he trying but he's just as bad as clarkson on defense if not worse, that's the bias i'm talking about. Sexton isnt a good playmaker either. He's much more efficient fair but all he is a gunner, the exact type of guy you claim to hate yet you call him a "joy to watch". Also bias shows in your terrible excuses for why you're not contradicting yourself. Who the hell cares olynyk was a lottery pick, he's a nice backup veteran big at this point has the same value as clarkson. What interest in clarkson for years? You're just lying now lol. Utah wasnt interested in trading clarkson til last year. Burks is a great shooter but cant score 45% on 2's. He's not a lot better player and you have no idea what you're talking about with the pistons. Monty gave him freedom he was just not good til getting hot the last month or so. Jaden Ivey is the one who's been screwed by Monty as coach.

I only quit because I have better things to do usually than argue with a wall.

Edit: and you dont have any idea what you're talking about with your own team. sexton and dunn didnt take clarkson's minutes, they took tht's.

[Manny98]

Overall Rudy is better than Allen but I'd give Allen a slight edge on offense

[RRR3]

Overall Rudy is better than Allen but I'd give Allen a slight edge on offense
Slight? Allen can pass and can score on his own.

[Xiao Yao You]

allen over gobert has nothing to do with the all star team he didnt make one either lol. The all star point was about towns vs gobert. Coaches were included in the all star vote, are you saying their opinion doesnt matter at all? Allen has a higher ts% this year, that ft shooting is a huge edge and he has higher volume. also allen actually has a floater game unlike gobert who's just finishing. Gobert gets more fouls because of hack a gobert, i dont agree he has more rim gravity. O-epm is quite accurate, rudy is a +0.1 this year allen is a +1.9. You ofc completely ignore the passing aspect lol, that's a huge part of offense enough to make up any miniscule edge in rim gravity.

Bojan drives to the rim handles the ball in pnr etc. Do not act like he's 2020 duncan robinson lol. his defense was also not that bad in utah. He was never played off the floor in the playoffs. famously was the main guy guarding kawhi and did ok.

A bunch of teams across history have had a bench guy like clarkson. They'll take his inefficiency because they dont have talent on the bench and need anyone who can score. clarkson can playmake now just watching the games compared to his previous years where admittedly he did nothing. he's actually kicking out to shooters running pnr etc. Not everyone is chris paul, most guys who have playmaking responsibilities turn it over a lot. His percentages may be unimpressive but no team treats him like a non shooter on defense. I didnt say shooting stats were garbage just all the defense ones you used were. They're all box score based, you cant base defense off just the box score. Use EPM/Lebron etc. They're not great but better than individual drtg for christs sake lol. He's a negative defender but never a bottom 20% in the league type guy. Never a guy who got played off the floor in the playoffs for his defense like say a grayson allen.

You say you dont like guys who play one end, sexton may seem like he trying but he's just as bad as clarkson on defense if not worse, that's the bias i'm talking about. Sexton isnt a good playmaker either. He's much more efficient fair but all he is a gunner, the exact type of guy you claim to hate yet you call him a "joy to watch". Also bias shows in your terrible excuses for why you're not contradicting yourself. Who the hell cares olynyk was a lottery pick, he's a nice backup veteran big at this point has the same value as clarkson. What interest in clarkson for years? You're just lying now lol. Utah wasnt interested in trading clarkson til last year. Burks is a great shooter but cant score 45% on 2's. He's not a lot better player and you have no idea what you're talking about with the pistons. Monty gave him freedom he was just not good til getting hot the last month or so. Jaden Ivey is the one who's been screwed by Monty as coach.

I only quit because I have better things to do usually than argue with a wall.

Edit: and you dont have any idea what you're talking about with your own team. sexton and dunn didnt take clarkson's minutes, they took tht's.

all star selections are historically bad. All NBA isn't perfect either but certainly a much better barometer. No one is getting the haul for Towns that Utah got for Gobert that much is certain. Again bad teams with Gobert win games. Teams with Towns and without winners like Gobert, Butler and Edwards are bad.

Duncan Robinson doesn't play. Saying a guy should be a 6th man and not a starter isn't saying he's Duncan Robinson. You want Bojan starting fine. I wouldn't. He did ok against Kawhi one game. If he can put a body on you he's ok. Not much of that going on in today's NBA unfortunately for him though. You don't get played off the floor if COTM is your coach. He famously doesn't make in game adjustments

What bench guys are like The Bum and playing starter minutes and more than the guy starting ahead of him while not being able to shoot from any distance, not playing D and turning the ball over. The Bum playmaking more is actual a bad thing. It's not his game and he's awful at it. You have a choice. An awful shot of a turnover. The brilliance of being The Bum! I don't expect anyone to be Paul. He's one of the greats. I do expect something from a guy playing big minutes and getting paid a lot of money. Again you don't get played off the floor if COTM is your coach. Did you not watch those playoff series when the other team was destroying them and he did nothing to try and change it? I wasn't an Allen fan when he was here mostly because the coach played him because they played for the same school but he doesn't suck. The Bum sucks period!

Sexton isn't as bad as The Bum at anything. Sexton is a dawg. He comes to play and doesn't back down from anyone. He can play for me anytime! Him and Dunn were the main reasons the Jazz went from one of the worst teams in the league with The Bum and the not ready for prime time rookie starting to one of the best teams for a stretch when those two were hurt and the coach was forced to start Sexton and Dunn. Sexton is a shooting guard in a little man's body but he's certainly a lot better playmaker than The Bum and again he is improving at 25 not falling off the cliff in his 30's. I wouldn't call him a gunner. He's a scorer. There's a big difference between the two. He doesn't pound the ball while his teammates stand around with no plan. He attacks within the offense. I have no idea where Olynyk was picked. Agbaji is a young lottery pick. That's why they got a 1st round pick. Every team in the league would be better with Olynyk in their rotation. Can't imagine any team is better with The Bum playing for them. Thibs like Burks. I was hoping The Bum would go there to watch him get benched. Can't imagine Thibs putting up with him

Instead of arguing with a wall why not watch some actual video before spewing stuff you obviously have no ****in' clue about. I see their games.

[Xiao Yao You]

Overall Rudy is better than Allen but I'd give Allen a slight edge on offense

:biggums:

[Xiao Yao You]

can't quit me!

[NBAGOAT]

all star selections are historically bad. All NBA isn't perfect either but certainly a much better barometer. No one is getting the haul for Towns that Utah got for Gobert that much is certain. Again bad teams with Gobert win games. Teams with Towns and without winners like Gobert, Butler and Edwards are bad.

Duncan Robinson doesn't play. Saying a guy should be a 6th man and not a starter isn't saying he's Duncan Robinson. You want Bojan starting fine. I wouldn't. He did ok against Kawhi one game. If he can put a body on you he's ok. Not much of that going on in today's NBA unfortunately for him though. You don't get played off the floor if COTM is your coach. He famously doesn't make in game adjustments

What bench guys are like The Bum and playing starter minutes and more than the guy starting ahead of him while not being able to shoot from any distance, not playing D and turning the ball over. The Bum playmaking more is actual a bad thing. It's not his game and he's awful at it. You have a choice. An awful shot of a turnover. The brilliance of being The Bum! I don't expect anyone to be Paul. He's one of the greats. I do expect something from a guy playing big minutes and getting paid a lot of money. Again you don't get played off the floor if COTM is your coach. Did you not watch those playoff series when the other team was destroying them and he did nothing to try and change it? I wasn't an Allen fan when he was here mostly because the coach played him because they played for the same school but he doesn't suck. The Bum sucks period!

Sexton isn't as bad as The Bum at anything. Sexton is a dawg. He comes to play and doesn't back down from anyone. He can play for me anytime! Him and Dunn were the main reasons the Jazz went from one of the worst teams in the league with The Bum and the not ready for prime time rookie starting to one of the best teams for a stretch when those two were hurt and the coach was forced to start Sexton and Dunn. Sexton is a shooting guard in a little man's body but he's certainly a lot better playmaker than The Bum and again he is improving at 25 not falling off the cliff in his 30's. I wouldn't call him a gunner. He's a scorer. There's a big difference between the two. He doesn't pound the ball while his teammates stand around with no plan. He attacks within the offense. I have no idea where Olynyk was picked. Agbaji is a young lottery pick. That's why they got a 1st round pick. Every team in the league would be better with Olynyk in their rotation. Can't imagine any team is better with The Bum playing for them. Thibs like Burks. I was hoping The Bum would go there to watch him get benched. Can't imagine Thibs putting up with him

Instead of arguing with a wall why not watch some actual video before spewing stuff you obviously have no ****in' clue about. I see their games.

talk about pot calling kettle black. You talked about the pistons when you obviously havent watched any of their games. What bad teams with gobert won games? he's always had decent rosters or better. we're also talking just this year, towns has been very good this year. Pure baseless speculation about towns trade value. An all star big man is going for a big haul. The knicks unless thibs doesnt want to coach him again would put out a huge package. the nets could put together a huge package too along with okc,

Duncan Robinson plays a lot btw. Again you dont even pay the most basic attention. After strus left he's back to having a major role with the heat. one look at basketball reference shows he's playing 27mpg this year. Also if you could read i said 2020 duncan robinson anyway when he was a starter on a finals team. Snyder benched guys who were unplayable, that's not a high lvl adjustment just basic coaching. favors barely played vs the clippers. Bojan has played in other playoff series with other coaches and never been played off the floor.

If the clarkson's playmaking is that much of a negative it would show up in impact stats. It doesnt, he's a positive on offense every year besides this year where even with his crap efficiency he's barely negative. Back to grayson snyder is so bad at adjustments that mike budenholzer of all people is much better? Give me a break lol.

Sexton hustles but again your bias is obvious. He's a classic gunner. Guard who doesnt pass much and takes mostly unassisted shots. Okay his shot selection is better than clarkson and he's better at slashing, i never said sexton wasnt a better player i'm not as biased as you are. It doesnt mean he's not a gunner who doesnt pound the ball a bit. clarkson is a scorer, you're making up definitions of commonly used terms. nba.com sexton averages 4.48 secs and 4.17 dribbles per touch clarkson 3.71 secs and 2.95 dribbles. Yea clarkson is the one pounding the ball way more.

Alright i misread your comment about olynyk. It doesnt matter that ogbaji was a lottery pick, he wasnt doing much with the jazz. Olynyk was the main value in that trade. Even if you want to say olynyk is better and i likely agree, clarkson had value and was going fetch a 2nd rd pick or 2. If ainge wanted to trade him clarkson would've been traded(and the fact ainge gave him a good contract and didnt trade him maybe suggests ainge values him somewhat highly). Yea thibs is not going give a guy the front office traded assets for a chance, please you lack basic logic. burks isnt a good defender either another point i made you completely ignore.

It's good you watch so many games but embarrassing that you watch this many jazz games and be so wrong. I should apologize to the wall for comparing you two. Even 3ball does some basic research to have an idea of what's going on league wide and he doesnt watch any games.

[Proctor]

:biggums:
I had the same reaction as you. Allen is for sure better - equal defensively but Allen is mountains ahead offensively

[Manny98]

:biggums:
Believe it or not I actually like Gobert and think he should win DPOY

[Xiao Yao You]

talk about pot calling kettle black. You talked about the pistons when you obviously havent watched any of their games. What bad teams with gobert won games? he's always had decent rosters or better. we're also talking just this year, towns has been very good this year. Pure baseless speculation about towns trade value. An all star big man is going for a big haul. The knicks unless thibs doesnt want to coach him again would put out a huge package. the nets could put together a huge package too along with okc,

Duncan Robinson plays a lot btw. Again you dont even pay the most basic attention. After strus left he's back to having a major role with the heat. one look at basketball reference shows he's playing 27mpg this year. Also if you could read i said 2020 duncan robinson anyway when he was a starter on a finals team. Snyder benched guys who were unplayable, that's not a high lvl adjustment just basic coaching. favors barely played vs the clippers. Bojan has played in other playoff series with other coaches and never been played off the floor.

If the clarkson's playmaking is that much of a negative it would show up in impact stats. It doesnt, he's a positive on offense every year besides this year where even with his crap efficiency he's barely negative. Back to grayson snyder is so bad at adjustments that mike budenholzer of all people is much better? Give me a break lol.

Sexton hustles but again your bias is obvious. He's a classic gunner. Guard who doesnt pass much and takes mostly unassisted shots. Okay his shot selection is better than clarkson and he's better at slashing, i never said sexton wasnt a better player i'm not as biased as you are. It doesnt mean he's not a gunner who doesnt pound the ball a bit. clarkson is a scorer, you're making up definitions of commonly used terms. nba.com sexton averages 4.48 secs and 4.17 dribbles per touch clarkson 3.71 secs and 2.95 dribbles. Yea clarkson is the one pounding the ball way more.

Alright i misread your comment about olynyk. It doesnt matter that ogbaji was a lottery pick, he wasnt doing much with the jazz. Olynyk was the main value in that trade. Even if you want to say olynyk is better and i likely agree, clarkson had value and was going fetch a 2nd rd pick or 2. If ainge wanted to trade him clarkson would've been traded(and the fact ainge gave him a good contract and didnt trade him maybe suggests ainge values him somewhat highly). Yea thibs is not going give a guy the front office traded assets for a chance, please you lack basic logic. burks isnt a good defender either another point i made you completely ignore.

It's good you watch so many games but embarrassing that you watch this many jazz games and be so wrong. I should apologize to the wall for comparing you two. Even 3ball does some basic research to have an idea of what's going on league wide and he doesnt watch any games.

those decent rosters Gobert had were awful without him for some reason. For some reason his great coach can't win despite having Gobert, Mitchell and Conley East. Lots of teams could put together a huge package for Towns. Who would though?

Duncan Robinson wasn't playing. He might be now. You can argue how much value a 32 year old is on a rebuilding team. Toronto gave up a 1st because of Agbaji's upside not because of an old Canadian. Ainge sees The Bum as an asset I assume. Either that or he's lost it. He can't think he's good. Burks has already played for Thibs so obviously he thinks he plays enough D. I'm sure Thibs would give The Bum a chance. Hard to imagine the honeymoon lasting long though. I'm not wrong about The Bum. He's awful. How anyone can see anything else is beyond me. Guess I've just gotten old and basic team basketball doesn't matter to anyone anymore if you can dribble and throw up tough shots. Who cares if you actually make shots or not!

[Xiao Yao You]

Believe it or not I actually like Gobert and think he should win DPOY

I hope everything is ok with you. I'm genuinely worried

[SATAN]

Predictably Xiao turned this into a thread about Toody. :facepalm

[RRR3]

Predictably Xiao turned this into a thread about Toody. :facepalm
Can’t quit Toody.

[NBAGOAT]

those decent rosters Gobert had were awful without him for some reason. For some reason his great coach can't win despite having Gobert, Mitchell and Conley East. Lots of teams could put together a huge package for Towns. Who would though?

Duncan Robinson wasn't playing. He might be now. You can argue how much value a 32 year old is on a rebuilding team. Toronto gave up a 1st because of Agbaji's upside not because of an old Canadian. Ainge sees The Bum as an asset I assume. Either that or he's lost it. He can't think he's good. Burks has already played for Thibs so obviously he thinks he plays enough D. I'm sure Thibs would give The Bum a chance. Hard to imagine the honeymoon lasting long though. I'm not wrong about The Bum. He's awful. How anyone can see anything else is beyond me. Guess I've just gotten old and basic team basketball doesn't matter to anyone anymore if you can dribble and throw up tough shots. Who cares if you actually make shots or not!

I named 3 teams that would for towns. Gobert barely missed any games in utah what proof do you have they were awful. Snyder got the 1st seed in a west loaded with good teams, that was good.

there is no might be what are you talking about lol. Duncan Robinson is playing big minutes every game. Again dont accuse me of not watching games when you're this wrong. I get the frustration with clarkson I watched clippers jamal crawford for years. Clarkson is not nearly the negative crawford was however.

[Mask the Embiid]

He can be the #2 option on a championship team…. That’s a pretty big compliment.

[Xiao Yao You]

I named 3 teams that would for towns. Gobert barely missed any games in utah what proof do you have they were awful. Snyder got the 1st seed in a west loaded with good teams, that was good.

there is no might be what are you talking about lol. Duncan Robinson is playing big minutes every game. Again dont accuse me of not watching games when you're this wrong. I get the frustration with clarkson I watched clippers jamal crawford for years. Clarkson is not nearly the negative crawford was however.

they'd lost 8 in a row before he emerged in Dec. of 2014. They were as bad as anyone in the league as they tried to tank. Suddenly they were competitive when he figured out he belonged. After they traded Kanter in Feb. they had the 6th best record in the league with an awful roster around him.

The next year he was out a month as the Jazz despite their great finish the year before were still trying to tank. They finally added the veteran pg they needed 3rd stringer Mack but it was too late by the time they started clicking with Mack. 7-13 without him 33-28 with him despite Neto and Burke at the 1 until Mack joined

2017-18 he missed 5 more games than that year. They were closer to the top pick in the draft than to the playoffs when he came back from injury. Ended up the 5th seed and pulled a playoff upset despite not being expected to be good that year because their all-star left. 11-15 without him. 37-19 with him. His last year they were 5-9 without him despite their other two all stars, your great 6th man and COTM.

His on/off was between 4 and 19.

Duncan Robinson wasn't playing last year. Rather there have been worse players than The Bum I'm not going to argue. He's probably my least favorite player ever and that is saying something with all the crap I've seen over the past 40 plus years. He brings nothing good to the table. The Jazz are certainly a better team without him yet they have a coach that thinks he's their best player.

His ORtg is at 106. It has been as high as 109 so he's the same crappy guy at that end as he's always been. His DRtg is at 123. It's been as low as 110 so it's not just this year. His offense has always sucked. His D is just a lot worse now. His DBPM has been between -.4 and the -3.1 of this year. That has been getting worse every year so he's trending the wrong way in his 30's

[Xiao Yao You]

can't quit me