The athleticism of todays athletes really would be too much for my idols to play.

[Kblaze8855]

https://i.ibb.co/gd67zgs/IMG-7725.gif

[90sgoat]

Glorified scrimmage league.

[Xiao Yao You]

Joe could play in any era. Looks like he's packing some pounds

[Im Still Ballin]

Thought that was a rec league/celeb game for a second looking at Joe's pudgy body

[Airupthere]

Advancement has been so fast that they don't look comparable anymore to players of the past

[tpols]

Never heard anybody say today's players are more athletic. They just have more shooting skill. Everybody can shoot long range nowadays and back then 50% of your starting lineup couldn't.

[Kblaze8855]

Never heard anybody say today's players are more athletic.




Im gonna take a moment to think but at a glance….that may be the least true thing ever posted.

Someone has said the back half of that sentence every 15 minutes of basketball discussion for a good 40 years. There is absolutely no way you have never heard it. I suspect I could give you 500 recent examples if I had nothing better to do with the next few hours.

[SATAN]

Everyone knows Joe Ingles isn't the most athletic player out there. Poorly executed bait thread.

[3ba11]

https://i.ibb.co/gd67zgs/IMG-7725.gif


marching band spacing

almost like a dance routine or marching band, not basketball

today's game isn't a real sport - it's more like a routine like golf or figure skating.. spaced-out, hands-off, beginner format

[FKAri]

The league is more athletic than ever. More skilled than ever. More talented than ever. The infrastructure around the game(marketing, medical, training, scouting, etc) is better than ever.

But the individual player is also dumber than ever. More distracted. Less knowledgeable about how to play team basketball. Less of a natural feel for the game because more of their reps have come from skills work rather than pickup.

[3ba11]

The league is more athletic than ever. More skilled than ever. More talented than ever. The infrastructure around the game(marketing, medical, training, scouting, etc) is better than ever.

But the individual player is also dumber than ever. More distracted. Less knowledgeable about how to play team basketball. Less of a natural feel for the game because more of their reps have come from skills work rather than pickup.


^^^ and also growing up in a spaced-out, hands-off "beginner" format yields layups/threes skillset, so less touch to shoot in-traffic and over packed-paints (aka mid-range), and less quick instinct as required in the lesser-spaced, more physical "advanced" formats

We see the inferior instinct and weaker touch in traffic gets exposed in the international game where we drastically underachieve our talent due to weaker actual basketball ability (weaker touch, simpleton instinct developed by beginner format.. if this were boxing the current era is deontay wilder and previous eras is the nuanced skill of prime fury or salvador sanchez or mayweather)

[FultzNationRISE]

The league is more athletic than ever. More skilled than ever. More talented than ever. The infrastructure around the game(marketing, medical, training, scouting, etc) is better than ever.

But the individual player is also dumber than ever. More distracted. Less knowledgeable about how to play team basketball. Less of a natural feel for the game because more of their reps have come from skills work rather than pickup.


Microcosm of us as a society.

[Phoenix]

Never heard anybody say today's players are more athletic. They just have more shooting skill. Everybody can shoot long range nowadays and back then 50% of your starting lineup couldn't.

What?! That's one of the most common things I've seen said about today's players vs yesteryears.

[ArbitraryWater]

And it is.

[BarberSchool]

By the time Joe released it, shotclock was under 5 ? Lol

[plowking]

https://i.ibb.co/gd67zgs/IMG-7725.gif


This was such a common play in the 80's and 90's. Seeing guys stroll down and just shoot and easy midrange or 8 footer. And that was in a league where everyone wasn't a threat to shoot from outside.

[90sgoat]

marching band spacing

almost like a dance routine or marching band, not basketball

today's game isn't a real sport - it's more like a routine like golf or figure skating.. spaced-out, hands-off, beginner format

You can see Wemby, it's like he is surprised someone actually attempts to score.

[Real Men Wear Green]

https://i.ibb.co/gd67zgs/IMG-7725.gif

To be fair athleticism doesn't matter when the players don't try to stop the ball. Teams of the past would have more of a problem dealing with modern teams' threes than players would modern players' athleticism but Pop not bothering to coach while tanking isn't the real proof of that.

[Kblaze8855]

This was such a common play in the 80's and 90's. Seeing guys stroll down and just shoot and easy midrange or 8 footer. And that was in a league where everyone wasn't a threat to shoot from outside.

It’s a common play in every era. Some just like to pretend it isn’t. Athletic ability has never been the only way to do such things. Non athletes have been lighting up jumping jacks for 100 years and driving with no problem. Only now there are considerably fewer obstacles in the way because few teams play two non shooting bigs to be in the paint by default with their defenders next to them.

[Kblaze8855]

To be fair athleticism doesn't matter when the players don't try to stop the ball. Teams of the past would have more of a problem dealing with modern teams' threes than players would modern players' athleticism but Pop not bothering to coach while tanking isn't the real proof of that.

teams of the past would initially be destroyed playing modern basketball under modern rules, because they will be completely out of place and swapping two for three, not built to take advantage of the current rules, and not trained to take advantage of the refs pretending there are no ball handling violations.

On the other hand, if you drop a modern team into 1978, where there is no three-point line their offense would need rebuilding immediately and they would have to get used to incredibly different calling of rules. A ref in 1975 would literally call some of these players for 35 travels carries or double dribbles. Most would foul out thinking the offense gets the whistle on contact they create. Id love to see Trae Young realize he has to defend his man one on one unless there is a dedicated double team too. And that his man can just turn and back him down for 15 seconds if that’s what it takes.

Let them realize they aren’t built to deal with the overwhelming physical play of a Moses Malone and think they will just foul him only to find out he gets 3 free throws to make 2.

Let them realize flagrant fouls didn’t exist and taking your head off was a common foul you can do 5 more times. Hell even when they introduced flagrant fouls, making it count as a technical was at the referees discretion. You might get ejected with two or you might just get a warning and only get your first technical with the third one. There was a brawl in a game involving the Hawks where a guys third flagrant caused it because the ref didn’t think the first flagrant was bad enough to be a tech. It would have been a flagrant 2 today.

No freedom of movement emphasis, most hesis being a discontinued dribble, a 25 footer being a 2 point shot at 38%, strict offensive fouls, refs not letting you move the pivot before the dribble, a “gather” being considered one and a half steps towards the basket….

Playing the same game most of todays stars would have 10-15 turnovers, score 5-6 less points just off no 3s, spend more time being backed down than they have dealt with in their lives, having to deal with it mostly one on one, and getting clotheslined for a common foul if they talk too much and dance around?


Be a shocking transition going both ways I’m sure. Which is why it’s so hard to even go down that path.

They would both adjust given time. But it would be ugly initially for both. FIBA is a lot closer to the current NBA than the current nba is to the nba of decades ago and we can send 10 stars to lose to guys who can barely make the league.

Imagine sending them to play the 86 Celtics when a team with Lebron, Wade, Melo and so on couldn’t defend vassilis spanoulis in an unfamiliar setting rules and play style wise.

If Patty Mills and Ingles can beat a team USA with KD, Tatum, Lillard and all those superstars by 8 I’d say it’s hard to overstate what a lack of familiarity with the rules and play style can do.

of course, those things would happen less often playing on your own team with better developed chemistry, but the old-school refs would literally have to just let the modern players cheat by their standards to not completely disrupt the game with violations.

Someone would have to call down and tell the refs to just let the new guys cheat. The old guys would be going ballistic I’m sure but I don’t know what else you could do. Guys carry by those standards just standing in place. They think fiba is strict. Let them deal with those 70 year old refs from the 70s who didn’t give a **** if the crowd booed them all night or what anyone enjoys watching.

[tpols]

Im gonna take a moment to think but at a glance….that may be the least true thing ever posted.

Someone has said the back half of that sentence every 15 minutes of basketball discussion for a good 40 years. There is absolutely no way you have never heard it. I suspect I could give you 500 recent examples if I had nothing better to do with the next few hours.

Wait the least true thing I ever posted or everybody in history on this forum?

:roll:

I filter out dumb posts like that. If anything athletes back then were tougher... they played all 82 games under more physical duress.

And quite frankly if you look at the 90s dunk mixtape it destroys today's. Guys today are so boring and vanilla attacking the rim. A Shawn Kemp mix is better than every player combined today. We just saw a fat, slow guy dominate the whole league last year.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/ONiMofWu5mA?si=POite4OEG3EkWXo0



This is after 20 years of the refs getting less strict.

Imagine a guy used to todays rules playing 10 years before even that.

I honestly don’t think 10-15 turnovers would be a bad estimate. The refs will either have to agree to stop calling the game as they see it or the players would have to rebuild their game completely on the fly. Not really fair to ask.

[Kblaze8855]

Wait the least true thing I ever posted or everybody in history on this forum?




It’s as untrue as anything I’ve ever read by somebody I didn’t think was kidding. Because it’s not a matter of opinion. People factually say it what must be thousands of times per day on the Internet. It’s the default statement when comparing different times. And that’s in every sport. And it’s been going on forever. I watched an interview where Bob Cousy said it when he was a coach in the early 70s. It’s hard to imagine you just missed the 600,000 times it’s said.

[Xiao Yao You]

https://youtu.be/ONiMofWu5mA?si=POite4OEG3EkWXo0



This is after 20 years of the refs getting less strict.

Imagine a guy used to todays rules playing 10 years before even that.

I honestly don’t think 10-15 turnovers would be a bad estimate. The refs will either have to agree to stop calling the game as they see it or the players would have to rebuild their game completely on the fly. Not really fair to ask.

But they're so much more skilled today with much better handles!

[Kblaze8855]

I wish people who get upset at fans calling out travels could go back to when we were kids and play a game or two. Forget even organized play. Go play on the playground. Someone would fight you trying to play the way these guys play if you’re playing for money. Put 5 dollars on the game then argue it isn’t a travel when you take 3-4 steps because you’re allowed to gather the ball. I might not have lived to adulthood.

[90sgoat]

I wish people who get upset at fans calling out travels could go back to when we were kids and play a game or two. Forget even organized play. Go play on the playground. Someone would fight you trying to play the way these guys play if you’re playing for money. Put 5 dollars on the game then argue it isn’t a travel when you take 3-4 steps because you’re allowed to gather the ball. I might not have lived to adulthood.

Yeah, people really called out carry and travel on the playgrounds in the 90s, even in Europe.

I think the And1 changed some things, but that was like 10 years later.

[Kblaze8855]

I wanna go back to my days on the local drug dealers back yard court and get some of those travels back. Old heads calling everything. Even Hakeem drug his pivot now and then. I might have been pistol whipped trying some of the shit they get away with now.

[theballerFKA Ace]

The league is more athletic than ever. More skilled than ever. More talented than ever. The infrastructure around the game(marketing, medical, training, scouting, etc) is better than ever.

But the individual player is also dumber than ever. More distracted. Less knowledgeable about how to play team basketball. Less of a natural feel for the game because more of their reps have come from skills work rather than pickup.

Don't forget smaller than ever, well since the 80s at least. With the exception of point guards(because there are more combo guards running the point these days than true point guards), it's been almost 4 decades since the league was this small even with all the giant big men coming in from Europe. If it weren't for the influx of Europeans, the NBA would be REALLY tiny

[Airupthere]

https://youtu.be/ONiMofWu5mA?si=POite4OEG3EkWXo0



This is after 20 years of the refs getting less strict.

Imagine a guy used to todays rules playing 10 years before even that.

I honestly don’t think 10-15 turnovers would be a bad estimate. The refs will either have to agree to stop calling the game as they see it or the players would have to rebuild their game completely on the fly. Not really fair to ask.

Talk about stifling the offense with officiating. And yet some wonder why the offense "skills" are so much more advanced nowadays. How can one explore on offense during this era.

[Soundwave]

Luka and Joker pretty much killed the "unathletic stiffs couldn't work in this modern era! Larry Bird wouldn't be able to play!" line of logic completely even if it was dumb to begin with.

[Kblaze8855]

Talk about stifling the offense with officiating. And yet some wonder why the offense "skills" are so much more advanced nowadays. How can one explore on offense during this era.


And I’m not kidding when I say it was already less strict by then. People were already complaining that they didn’t call it tight anymore.

[tpols]

I wanna go back to my days on the local drug dealers back yard court and get some of those travels back. Old heads calling everything. Even Hakeem drug his pivot now and then. I might have been pistol whipped trying some of the shit they get away with now.

Wait a second... you hung out with drug dealers who had GUNS?

And here I was thinking you were a respectable pillar of the community. :facepalm

You oughta be ashamed of yourself.

[Kblaze8855]

I have guns. I buy guns as presents. I’m just not a freak about it.

And the drug dealers in question never exposed a gun. I’m sure they had them but they weren’t waving them around us. I’d still get in trouble if my mom found I was playing over there though. His kids had everything though. You can’t expect the one rich family in a poor hood to not attract the attention of the other kids. And his kids weren’t even ***** about it like some rich kids. They weren’t like stuck up. They acted like everybody else they just had everything. And then dad went to jail for a long time and last I heard he was a butcher in a supermarket.

[tpols]

Living in a hyper blue state I really do wonder what it would be like to just have a high powered firearm on your hip driving around. I think it's an automatic prison sentence here.

[Kblaze8855]

I With a gun in the car. Never have. Now I’ve written with a number of friends who kept guns in the car, but a gun of mine? Nah. I figure a home invasion or somebody coming for me at my home is way more likely than me needing to be in a shootout at the stoplight. Maybe if I get robbed in my car I’ll change my mind. I’ve had homes broken into. Last time was years ago and I actually sat by my window I could tell they came in hoping they would come back for more.

At the time they ran out with my Xbox and I think maybe a small TV but left too much. My dumbass was hoping they would come back And I could get some vengeance. And I’m sitting in the house inarmed. Didn’t even get a knife out of the kitchen.

I’ve had two break-ins in my life, but never when anybody was home.

[FKAri]

Talk about stifling the offense with officiating. And yet some wonder why the offense "skills" are so much more advanced nowadays. How can one explore on offense during this era.

Well part of the reason is that the offensive skills ARE much more advanced nowadays. Specifically individual skill. Specifically shot making. But you're right that part of it is also rules. Part of it is also a culture of letting the talent do its thing as opposed to, "if you don't do things a certain way, you're getting benched".

[tpols]

That's funny. A couple of years ago when I was living in a shitty apartment complex in North Jersey I had somebody stalking me on a robbery. I woke up one night at 3am and heard a rustle by my window and saw one of my blinds was turned horizontal. My window faced a graveyard about 30 yards away so there was perfect no visibility for a burglar. Walked by it the next morning and there was a chair underneath my window in between the bushes. Asked my roommates who had lived there longer than me about anything sketchy happening and they said there was a home invasion in the unit a couple months before I moved in and that it was my window they came through. Thanks guys.

[ShawkFactory]

I With a gun in the car. Never have. Now I’ve written with a number of friends who kept guns in the car, but a gun of mine? Nah. I figure a home invasion or somebody coming for me at my home is way more likely than me needing to be in a shootout at the stoplight. Maybe if I get robbed in my car I’ll change my mind. I’ve had homes broken into. Last time was years ago and I actually sat by my window I could tell they came in hoping they would come back for more.

At the time they ran out with my Xbox and I think maybe a small TV but left too much. My dumbass was hoping they would come back And I could get some vengeance. And I’m sitting in the house inarmed. Didn’t even get a knife out of the kitchen.

I’ve had two break-ins in my life, but never when anybody was home.

Generally the goal of most home invaders.

[Kblaze8855]

I’m sure you’re right. Generally. But it doesn’t always work out that way. RIP Mr.Skinner



https://www.hostpic.org/images/2402160302180096.jpeg



Lived near the top of the same street of the house I was in that got robbed. Right around the time I moved back to that neighborhood for reasons most would find questionable, but made sense to me at the time.

[ShawkFactory]

All that for $70. Damn.

[Kblaze8855]

Well part of the reason is that the offensive skills ARE much more advanced nowadays. Specifically individual skill. Specifically shot making. But you're right that part of it is also rules. Part of it is also a culture of letting the talent do its thing as opposed to, "if you don't do things a certain way, you're getting benched".

tough to find a line for me between skill, and simply taking advantage of being allowed to do things others can’t. Like…are and-1 players more skilled than John Stockton because Stockton plays by the rules? Is it hard to do even illegal moves and have them work vs nba players? Sure. But does that mean players who don’t work on blatantly illegal forms of offense are less skilled?

Today’s players are inarguably more skilled long range shooters. But there isnt a single person known for ballhandling and great finishing ability who doesn’t specialize in tactics that were literally illegal for over 100 years. I don’t know how to account for that when trying to judge the skill difference.

Kyrie has godly skill. But he chains moves together that would be a carry and often double dribble(shot fake hesis) into a traveling gather if you go back far enough.

So do we blame the players who weren’t allowed for not developing the skill to do those moves?

[mr4speed]

https://youtu.be/ONiMofWu5mA?si=POite4OEG3EkWXo0



This is after 20 years of the refs getting less strict.

Imagine a guy used to todays rules playing 10 years before even that.

I honestly don’t think 10-15 turnovers would be a bad estimate. The refs will either have to agree to stop calling the game as they see it or the players would have to rebuild their game completely on the fly. Not really fair to ask.

Thank you - thank you for posting this video. If you took the officials from this era and put them into any game today, there would be a travelling violation on almost every possession. This is a great example of how the players today have a huge advantage over the defense!!!!!

[FKAri]

tough to find a line for me between skill, and simply taking advantage of being allowed to do things others can’t. Like…are and-1 players more skilled than John Stockton because Stockton plays by the rules? Is it hard to do even illegal moves and have them work vs nba players? Sure. But does that mean players who don’t work on blatantly illegal forms of offense are less skilled?

Today’s players are inarguably more skilled long range shooters. But there isnt a single person known for ballhandling and great finishing ability who doesn’t specialize in tactics that were literally illegal for over 100 years. I don’t know how to account for that when trying to judge the skill difference.

Kyrie has godly skill. But he chains moves together that would be a carry and often double dribble(shot fake hesis) into a traveling gather if you go back far enough.

So do we blame the players who weren’t allowed for not developing the skill to do those moves?

OK, let's ignore Kyrie's handles. But let's keep it about guards. You mentioned the finishing ability. He might be the best in the league today on layups but he isn't without peer. I'd put Curry and maybe even Murray in his tier. In Stockton's time he would have no peer. His ability to stop on a dime and pull up coupled with the quickness of his release? Elite? Maybe. It's certainly very good. In Stockton's time? Definitely elite.

One thing everyone can note over time is how shot releases have gotten quicker across the board. Would Curry be able to do what he does with a below league average release? Kyle Anderson has a slow release and even with today's dribbling and his size he can't get a shot off in a face up iso. So a lot of these older guards even with up to date handles aren't getting a shot off if their release is slow. And getting good elevation on a jumper was also increasingly rare the further back you go. Another thing between say the early 80s and the 90s: How much better guys got with their off hand. It's not some new rule or officiating that ushered this change. There's other things too and there's also rare exceptions like Chris Jackson who really was held back more due to rules/offensive philosophy than anything to do with skill.

So the caveat: Why would a 6'2 guard in the 80s be working on an assortment of layups? He's avoiding the hard hits in the paint anyways. Is he working on his shot making if his job is to make a post entry pass? So, yes this is a part of it. But this is different from "He could do it but he wasn't allowed to". He also couldn't do it because he didn't even train to.

It's a feedback loop. MJ inspired an entire generation with guard dominant scoring. They then tried to do it and although they couldn't do it as well as he did it, they did a lot better than the previous generation. This incentivized more guards to learn how to do so. Resulting in more guards who can do so. More means the best are even better at doing so. Making it look even easier to do so in turn inspiring even more. And the league didn't mind helping out.

[Im Still Ballin]

Talk about stifling the offense with officiating. And yet some wonder why the offense "skills" are so much more advanced nowadays. How can one explore on offense during this era.


And I’m not kidding when I say it was already less strict by then. People were already complaining that they didn’t call it tight anymore.

From an article in 1988:


Newell, who remains enough fascinated by the shot that he tries to teach it in his big-man camp for NBA centers and forwards, said: “It happened about 15 years ago, when they changed the interpretation of the screen. It then allowed you to go down and pick a guy, and rarely was there an offensive foul. It was the birth of motion offense. It creates a shot in the vicinity of the basket so there’s now lots of jamming.”

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyPuTMiKCDE&pp=ygUVanIgcmlkZXIgZHVuayBjb250ZXN0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp7Inn-NBoQ&pp=ygURZWRkaWUgam9uZXMgZHVua3M%3D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKt67P7HpxQ&pp=ygURZWRkaWUgam9uZXMgZHVua3M%3D

[Kblaze8855]

I’m on my way to get an oil change so I can’t do this whole thing now but….




OK, let's ignore Kyrie's handles. But let's keep it about guards. You mentioned the finishing ability. He might be the best in the league today on layups but he isn't without peer. I'd put Curry and maybe even Murray in his tier. In Stockton's time he would have no peer. His ability to stop on a dime and pull up coupled with the quickness of his release? Elite? Maybe. It's certainly very good. In Stockton's time? Definitely elite.



If you think Curry and Jamal are peers and nobody in Stocktons time were I….really don’t know what to tell you. I know you know who Kyries godfather was. I know you know guys like Kevin Johnson Who not only had layups, but would go over the top of you. I assume you know Sarunas. Gervin had a GOAT tier layup package at the 2(using similar training as Kyrie with his childhood broken backboard) before even that and going into Stocktons time. Jordan goes without saying. And plenty of guards back then were polished post players who could finish inside even guarded by bigs. Payton. Penny. Drexler was ridiculous layup wise. Nick Van Exel wasn’t elite, but he was throwing floaters off Odins beard when he consistently had two big men between him and the basket. And Stocktons time lasted till Baron Davis, Steve Francis and so on. He played 7 years against Iverson. Quite a bit with Tony Parker.

this is more an issue of people only crediting the biggest names and forgetting other people existed. And that isn’t even considering what any of those players would look like as finishers with the lanes as consistently empty behind their men as they are now.

Harold Minor wasn’t even good. But if you remember more about him than dunk contest highlights, you know, he was an absolute menace to keep from the basket one on one. Isaiah Rider would do some wild shit right now with these empty lanes. A lot of those lesser known guys would. Dee Brown was making eye popping plays I’ve not even seen in what few highlights remain of him. A long list of guys were doing shit that would be considered spectacular even by today standards. And that before they adjusted and started playing a style that would’ve been illegal for them.

I like Jamal Murray and Steph is obviously a GOAT but as finishers they aren’t some different tier than the best Stockton faced unless you mean a tier below. Jamal is nice. Hes not really out here going chest to chest with Hakeem these days though. Kevin Johnson was. And not just on his famous dunk either. That guy was 62 with maybe 16 feet of range and out there driving straight at headhunters like Karl Malone, and finishing between Oakley and Ewing.

At his best he was doing things that would remind people now of Wade or Ja Morant explosion wise even without the modern “sauce”

[Kblaze8855]

Ok I’m gonna be in this dealership for a minute now…




One thing everyone can note over time is how shot releases have gotten quicker across the board. Would Curry be able to do what he does with a below league average release? Kyle Anderson has a slow release and even with today's dribbling and his size he can't get a shot off in a face up iso. So a lot of these older guards even with up to date handles aren't getting a shot off if their release is slow. And getting good elevation on a jumper was also increasingly rare the further back you go. Another thing between say the early 80s and the 90s: How much better guys got with their off hand. It's not some new rule or officiating that ushered this change. There's other things too and there's also rare exceptions like Chris Jackson who really was held back more due to rules/offensive philosophy than anything to do with skill.

So the caveat: Why would a 6'2 guard in the 80s be working on an assortment of layups? He's avoiding the hard hits in the paint anyways. Is he working on his shot making if his job is to make a post entry pass? So, yes this is a part of it. But this is different from "He could do it but he wasn't allowed to". He also couldn't do it because he didn't even train to.

It's a feedback loop. MJ inspired an entire generation with guard dominant scoring. They then tried to do it and although they couldn't do it as well as he did it, they did a lot better than the previous generation. This incentivized more guards to learn how to do so. Resulting in more guards who can do so. More means the best are even better at doing so. Making it look even easier to do so in turn inspiring even more. And the league didn't mind helping out.




To be clear I do acknowledge there are some skills and tactics that are simply more advanced now. Some simply didn’t exist as well known moves to work on. The “Dirk” fade for example. I can show you George Mikan and Kareem doing it. I can show you Baylor and Doctor J euro steps. But moves back then weren’t broken down and emulated.

Lack of media coverage and film on every shot anyone makes limited how “new” moves could spread.

Today someone sees a nice move and it’s on tik tok in 5 minutes and 200,000 kids have seen it and plenty of trainers will master it and go teach some kid to do it. It’s an advantage for modern players but fair or not it does exist and it does enhance the “bag” of modern guys.

Moves spread like wildfire. The internet did that.

So yes…guys now have moves old guys didn’t think of because they didn’t have access to people who thought them up 3000 miles away like they do now. So I do happily acknowledge there is a skill gap on individual moves.

But at the same time?


I can’t ignore that half of the “new” moves incorporate illegal tactics from the perspective of the refs calling old games.

When this is a travel on Rod for taking 2.5 steps


https://i.ibb.co/sQpsxrS/IMG-7734.gif



But his godson Kyrie can take 3.5….


How are we blaming guys in Rods age for not working on moves like that more?

The extra steps let guys get pretty much anywhere they need to be to get the shot off.

Am I saying it’s unskilled? Of course not. I’m saying…they’re more skilled in ways the old guys couldn’t legally emulate. So what do I do with that?


Gary Payton could turn his back vs even a big wing and back down from 3…shot fake…step through and finish around a big. Very few small players today can.

But….

Theyre born in 2002. They grew up in a world where the nba banned 5 second backdowns. The result was two fold. Less post skill due to less reps when the players you emulate growing up don’t play that way(we all posted up just seeing Magic play that way). But the other side?

More people have handles. Like…rush hour handles. Rod Strickland had them. Isiah. Tim Hardaway. A few guys. But it was more standard to protect the ball by turning your back. Play keep away and let the play develop.

League makes that illegal. So now what? Whole generation never sees it. They all develop faceup handles which made them better.

To me…the guys in the middle who had both? Guys like Penny? That’s a skill advantage. Penny would absolutely tear today’s guards up in the post and still faceup and dribble through traffic.

But the only guys with that game now come from places that didn’t stifle that aspect. Guys like Luka.

Luka has old school slow flow back down or faceup punish you on the way to the rim skills. Hes slow but one of the best drivers because you can’t take anything away. He has a complete 90s and 2020s skill set.

Hes fat penny but less athletic. And hes utterly unstoppable when he wants to go inside. Almost no guards can do a thing with him.

Luka has a more complete skill set to me because he’s got Payton or Penny inside games but Harden faceup.

Both count and both are devastating but fans not used to the old approach don’t even acknowledge the lack of it in most.

I think someone being honest has to acknowledge the skill gap in certain areas in both eras.

Today obviously has shooting outside.

I just don’t know how much credit I can give to “skills” for moves that were flat illegal for the other guys.

And I’m not even talking old old school. Or just the elite players.

Jason Williams was already playing illegally by 70s standards 25 years ago but give him the open floors and ball handling rules now? The nba would have to dedicate a whole YouTube feed to him alone. Same with NVE. Steve Francis in a league without 2 bigs in the way with encouraged traveling, legal double dribble shot fakes, and 2 carry violations called a month(both on Jordan Poole)?

I just feel we do some of the previous guys dirty when they played more legally even in street ball than the nba requires guys to play now.


Doesnt mean they aren’t well trained and better in some aspects.

Just means I don’t know where to draw the line between better training and more freedom when the freedom is at the core of so many of the “new” moves and the setup to all the “new” finishes.

[Im Still Ballin]

Found a crazy (by modern standards) traveling call from a 1992 playoff game. Brad Daugherty at 2:00 in the video. The commentators said it was a good call. It seems the main difference between older interpretations and today is when the two steps start. Today it's when the ball is "gathered" but back it looks like when it either leaves the hand for the final dribble or when the ball hits the ground and comes back up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNM9SrQePMg&ab_channel=MDBBall

https://i.ibb.co/K5pS4Cx/8g2bfk.gif

[Kblaze8855]

https://i.ibb.co/ZxR0W6N/IMG-7737.gif


Yea at the time a lot of things like that would be called. You see Drazen saying it was a walk.

You see people post uncalled travels from every era. But back then they were always looking for it. The “missed” calls now aren’t missed…the league just told the refs they aren’t violations anymore.

[Kblaze8855]

They got Nique too

https://i.ibb.co/wKB3rPZ/IMG-7738.gif



Xiao always says Nique was traveling a lot. And by those standards sometimes he did. By todays? He would be the most legal slasher in the league. His pivot dragging on a hop step into a step through would leave him well short of todays road trips to the basket.

They wait for the gather to compete(saying it isn’t gathered till you can no longer dribble) to start counting and ignore that the guys carry the ball up to the other hand so the dribble is already discontinued before they start counting. They focus so much on the footwork they ignore the ball handling making it a travel to continue no matter what.

[Xiao Yao You]

They got Nique too

https://i.ibb.co/wKB3rPZ/IMG-7738.gif



Xiao always says Nique was traveling a lot. And by those standards sometimes he did. By todays? He would be the most legal slasher in the league. His pivot dragging on a hop step into a step through would leave him well short of todays road trips to the basket.

They wait for the gather to compete(saying it isn’t gathered till you can no longer dribble) to start counting and ignore that the guys carry the ball up to the other hand so the dribble is already discontinued before they start counting. They focus so much on the footwork they ignore the ball handling making it a travel to continue no matter what.

should have been a triple jumper with all the hopping he did. Hop, skip and jump is at least 3 steps

[Kblaze8855]

He was more Jump and step then he was hop skip and a jump. He had that early Vince Carter hop step, but he will follow it with the step through which occasionally would be a travel. But by today’s standards? Nah. Clean as a whistle.

[Xiao Yao You]

He was more Jump and step then he was hop skip and a jump. He had that early Vince Carter hop step, but he will follow it with the step through which occasionally would be a travel. But by today’s standards? Nah. Clean as a whistle.

not much they can't do today

[FKAri]

I’m on my way to get an oil change so I can’t do this whole thing now but….




If you think Curry and Jamal are peers and nobody in Stocktons time were I….really don’t know what to tell you. I know you know who Kyries godfather was. I know you know guys like Kevin Johnson Who not only had layups, but would go over the top of you. I assume you know Sarunas. Gervin had a GOAT tier layup package at the 2(using similar training as Kyrie with his childhood broken backboard) before even that and going into Stocktons time. Jordan goes without saying. And plenty of guards back then were polished post players who could finish inside even guarded by bigs. Payton. Penny. Drexler was ridiculous layup wise. Nick Van Exel wasn’t elite, but he was throwing floaters off Odins beard when he consistently had two big men between him and the basket. And Stocktons time lasted till Baron Davis, Steve Francis and so on. He played 7 years against Iverson. Quite a bit with Tony Parker.

this is more an issue of people only crediting the biggest names and forgetting other people existed. And that isn’t even considering what any of those players would look like as finishers with the lanes as consistently empty behind their men as they are now.

Harold Minor wasn’t even good. But if you remember more about him than dunk contest highlights, you know, he was an absolute menace to keep from the basket one on one. Isaiah Rider would do some wild shit right now with these empty lanes. A lot of those lesser known guys would. Dee Brown was making eye popping plays I’ve not even seen in what few highlights remain of him. A long list of guys were doing shit that would be considered spectacular even by today standards. And that before they adjusted and started playing a style that would’ve been illegal for them.

I like Jamal Murray and Steph is obviously a GOAT but as finishers they aren’t some different tier than the best Stockton faced unless you mean a tier below. Jamal is nice. Hes not really out here going chest to chest with Hakeem these days though. Kevin Johnson was. And not just on his famous dunk either. That guy was 62 with maybe 16 feet of range and out there driving straight at headhunters like Karl Malone, and finishing between Oakley and Ewing.

At his best he was doing things that would remind people now of Wade or Ja Morant explosion wise even without the modern “sauce”

I didn't mention some of those guys for the same reason I didn't mention Ja or Rose. Where the finishing is coming more from leaping and length rather than touch. Even though Rose had a great layup package. You're also right that the size and space in the paint makes this an unfair argument. But guys still found a way to get in there from time to time and we could see what they had. We'll just have to agree to disagree that the standard of what was a difficult layup has only gone up every decade in the NBA. Even if the best layup ever made was some dude at the park in 1967 or so and so could do X. The bar has gone and continues to go up.


Ok I’m gonna be in this dealership for a minute now…

Can't find much to disagree with here and it seems you agree with me on a lot of things too. There absolutely are some skills that have degraded over time. There have always been tremendous talents over the years. And I covered in my last post that smaller guards weren't training for some of these things. I guess the difference is you're more sympathetic to the guys who could've done it whereas I'm just looking at the end result. Unfair or not. It is what it is.


They got Nique too

https://i.ibb.co/wKB3rPZ/IMG-7738.gif



Xiao always says Nique was traveling a lot. And by those standards sometimes he did. By todays? He would be the most legal slasher in the league. His pivot dragging on a hop step into a step through would leave him well short of todays road trips to the basket.

They wait for the gather to compete(saying it isn’t gathered till you can no longer dribble) to start counting and ignore that the guys carry the ball up to the other hand so the dribble is already discontinued before they start counting. They focus so much on the footwork they ignore the ball handling making it a travel to continue no matter what.

The league and the refs have and continue to lie to themselves that they can determine what's a travel in live action play. The only difference is now they give you the benefit of the doubt. And even that is if they've seen it before or you've sent them a package of what to look for over an off season. Back then they you didn't get the benefit of the doubt. All that 0 step and gather clarification they did has less of an impact on this than their fallibility. A properly executed Euro was never a travel.

This is from 1957 (not a travel and no one bats an eye)
https://streamable.com/3v9fsc

[Kblaze8855]

I didn't mention some of those guys for the same reason I didn't mention Ja or Rose. Where the finishing is coming more from leaping and length rather than touch. Even though Rose had a great layup package. You're also right that the size and space in the paint makes this an unfair argument. But guys still found a way to get in there from time to time and we could see what they had. We'll just have to agree to disagree that the standard of what was a difficult layup has only gone up every decade in the NBA. Even if the best layup ever made was some dude at the park in 1967 or so and so could do X. The bar has gone and continues to go up.



Can't find much to disagree with here and it seems you agree with me on a lot of things too. There absolutely are some skills that have degraded over time. There have always been tremendous talents over the years. And I covered in my last post that smaller guards weren't training for some of these things. I guess the difference is you're more sympathetic to the guys who could've done it whereas I'm just looking at the end result. Unfair or not. It is what it is.



The league and the refs have and continue to lie to themselves that they can determine what's a travel in live action play. The only difference is now they give you the benefit of the doubt. And even that is if they've seen it before or you've sent them a package of what to look for over an off season. Back then they you didn't get the benefit of the doubt. All that 0 step and gather clarification they did has less of an impact on this than their fallibility. A properly executed Euro was never a travel.

This is from 1957 (not a travel and no one bats an eye)
https://streamable.com/3v9fsc


I feel like when we go with the “Fair or not….” argument it just downplays how incredibly unfair it is. It’s like making a list of the greatest college dunkers of all time, and David Thompson not being on it because the dunk was illegal while he was in college. Can you argue he should be when he literally never dunked in college? No. You can’t. but just calling it unfair and continuing kind of doesn’t explain the depth of the problem. When one side is literally not allowed to do the things you praise the other side for it isn’t just unfair. It’s almost stupid to even begin asking the question and including the disallowed side as inferior to the side who does things the other side can’t.

It’s like saying George Mikan is the GOAT goaltender because he played before goaltending was illegal. Hes the reason the rule exists. You can’t do it now. So how do I compare his goal tending ability to Hakeem?

One literally couldn’t do what the other did. The rules made it illegal.

Do I just say “Rules or not….Mikan was better at goaltending” like the fact he successfully goal tended more shots means he’s better at a skill Hakeem wasn’t allowed to show?

I feel like we go past “unfair” and into “What are we doing?” territory.

The people we consider great ballhandlers and finishers now are literally committing 25 or 30 violations A game. You can watch Kevin Durant stand in place and carry the ball on six consecutive dribbles. They are quite literally playing by a different set of rules. So how do we begin the comparison?

it’s not that the new guys aren’t great and incredibly skilled. But they’re great and incredibly skilled at a completely different game rules wise aren’t they? So how do we ask who is better between two groups of people playing different games? The games are as different as tennis and Pickleball.

[Norcaliblunt]

Tweakers tweak Op.

Anyone zoned out focused on a sport to the degree that owners, scouts, coaches yada yada yada are, are never going to be satisfied.

They literally are tweakers.

They’ll tweak with the game for the end of time.

[dankok8]

I feel like when we go with the “Fair or not….” argument it just downplays how incredibly unfair it is. It’s like making a list of the greatest college dunkers of all time, and David Thompson not being on it because the dunk was illegal while he was in college. Can you argue he should be when he literally never dunked in college? No. You can’t. but just calling it unfair and continuing kind of doesn’t explain the depth of the problem. When one side is literally not allowed to do the things you praise the other side for it isn’t just unfair. It’s almost stupid to even begin asking the question and including the disallowed side as inferior to the side who does things the other side can’t.

It’s like saying George Mikan is the GOAT goaltender because he played before goaltending was illegal. Hes the reason the rule exists. You can’t do it now. So how do I compare his goal tending ability to Hakeem?

One literally couldn’t do what the other did. The rules made it illegal.

Do I just say “Rules or not….Mikan was better at goaltending” like the fact he successfully goal tended more shots means he’s better at a skill Hakeem wasn’t allowed to show?

I feel like we go past “unfair” and into “What are we doing?” territory.

The people we consider great ballhandlers and finishers now are literally committing 25 or 30 violations A game. You can watch Kevin Durant stand in place and carry the ball on six consecutive dribbles. They are quite literally playing by a different set of rules. So how do we begin the comparison?

it’s not that the new guys aren’t great and incredibly skilled. But they’re great and incredibly skilled at a completely different game rules wise aren’t they? So how do we ask who is better between two groups of people playing different games? The games are as different as tennis and Pickleball.

Good post.

Also worth noting that all the way back in the 60's the dribbling officiating was even more stringent. Guys like Cousy and Oscar had to have the ball under their hand at all times. So yea... that's why the only comparisons that make sense involve looking at how good players were relative to their own eras instead of the time machine arguments.

It's kind of dumb that the NBA did this, either outright changing rules or changing how the officials call things because the game is very different. Other sports like soccer, football, tennis etc. have also changed over generations but far less than basketball did. Like you said, it's that guys today are playing a different sport.