There are currently 46 players in the NBA averaging over 20ppg

[hiphopanonymous]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_per_game.html#per_game_stats::pts_per_g


To be a 20ppg scorer in the NBA used to mean you were a special kind of offensive player. This era has such loose offensive rules and such poor defensive rules that it has literally gotten to the point where there's so many non-stars and roleplayers scoring that much it doesn't even feel special anymore. All other eras that used to be known as fast paced or run and gun have been passed up by a mile in this category and I even mean relatively speaking - accounting for the changes in the size of the league. I get that dialing back defense to counter the 'boring' 90's and early '00's style might have been necessary but this is really not an entertaining brand of basketball IMO.

For reference:

46 - 2024 (So far) (30 teams = 1.53 20ppg players per team) Means every other team now has at least 2 guys putting up over 20ppg.
43 - 2023 NBA Season (30 teams = 1.43 20ppg players per team) ^ almost the same as above

Different eras for reference:

20 - 2007 NBA Season (30 teams = 0.66 20ppg players per team) Means only 2/3rds of NBA teams were even lucky enough to have a guy score over 20ppg...
19 - 1993 NBA Season (27 teams = 0.7 20ppg players per team) ^ same as above
27 - 1987 NBA Season (23 teams = 1.17 20ppg players per team) All teams had about 1 guy that could give you 20 a night, very few teams had 2... IN THE FAST PACED 80s!
32 - 1973 ABA plus NBA COMBINED (27 teams = 1.19 20ppg players per team) Same as above
22 - 1967 ABA plus NBA COMBINED (21 teams = 1.04 20ppg players per team) Each team had an average of 1 guy that could give you 20... in the SIXTIES the era everyone claims is so inflated.
12 - 1962 NBA Season (9 teams = 1.33 20ppg player per team)... literally the most criticized/controversial year in NBA history about scoring due to Wilt's 50ppg... yet less people per team scored over 20ppg than today...

I can't be the only one who notices how bland this has made scoring. Anyone else noticing this? Thoughts?

[RRR3]

Combination of players getting better and rule changes.

[L.Kizzle]

Combination of players getting better and rule changes.

Are players really better or is it the rule changes?
Gerald Wilkins would avg 20+ today.
Kenny Smith would avg 20+ today as well

[dazzer87]

No defense league….”more skills”. :roll:

[L.Kizzle]

Kenny Smith avg 17ppg on 1.7 three point attempts. He's shooting at least 8 if he plays in 2024.

[hiphopanonymous]

No defense league….”more skills”. :roll:

Not to mention allowing more steps cradling the ball after carrying and scooping it from underneath or on the sides as you change direction - every 5 year old knows this. They can't tap it vertically in a disciplined manner and do much with it... but they CAN carry it and run without dribbling if you let them. I notice nowadays dribbling has turned into a throw it in the direction you wish to retrieve it affair. You can touch literally any part of the ball, and cradle it as long as you wish during the dribble it doesn't matter. Defenders have absolutely no chance to basically just guess what an offensive player will do with such freedom.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Don't know about the rest of you guys but I just want the playoffs to start already.

Regular season isn't what it used to be. Primetime national TV games and double headers aren't as exciting anymore, and it's primarily because of the soft calls and offensive boom. With practically every team having multiple guys who average 20+ ppg, and guys frequently scoring 40-50+, it's ruined all the fun in looking forward to seeing a star player go off.

[RRR3]

Players have gotten better in every sport over time as training methods, analytics and technology and sports medicine have advanced. You can see it in Olympic records. But delusional old boomers want us to believe basketball is different :yaohappy:

[Carbine]

The game is hard to defend now. When teams build squads around lineups with 4 shooters sometimes 5 and space it out, it's incredibly hard to defend that.

The game cannot revolutionize any more in terms of style. This is the peak of taking advantage of the scoring system in the NBA.

Not even Shaq in today's league would change how teams play much because he would give up as many points by exploiting him on defense as he would get on offense.

[StrongLurk]

Can we quit beating this dead horse? We already know there is too much scoring and we have been in a new era of basketball since 2020.

The league is the way it is because of two things.

1. Players have tailored their skills/games to what analytics/common sense says is the most efficient way to play.
2. The rule changes the league has implemented have empowered individual offensive game more than ever.

Both points have been building on each other for 20-25 years. The first point is hard to do anything about. However the league could do a lot to reduce the second point.

[NBAGOAT]

is kenny smith getting a bunch of touches. every team has their 2-3 guys who initiate offense while the rest are role guys. even the year he scored 18, is he good enough to be one of those guys on a non bad team? On the hornets sure he could score 20+. terry rozier was scoring like 23 on charlotte, he'll be lucky to score 16 with miami.

[warriorfan]

Players have gotten better in every sport over time as training methods, analytics and technology and sports medicine have advanced. You can see it in Olympic records. But delusional old boomers want us to believe basketball is different :yaohappy:

You existing is a pretty good example about how everything doesn’t improve over time

[tpols]

3pt shooting plays a huge role. Guys who used to average 15ppg taking a ton of long 2s can now do 20ppg easy taking 3s instead.

[AussieSteve]

The biggest driver of this is the rise of the 3 point shot.

Skills and rule changes also impact, but even if nothing else had changed, a guy averaging 18-19 ppg 30 years ago now averages 20 because he hits a couple of 3s each game.

[basketballcat]

Greater offensive output against superior zone defense is the direct result of the drastic decrease of plumbers and electricians in the league, after their 90s heyday.

[FultzNationRISE]

Edit: Should have read the thread first, just wrote a five paragraph essay on exactly what everyone has already said.

[dankok8]

Players have gotten better in every sport over time as training methods, analytics and technology and sports medicine have advanced. You can see it in Olympic records. But delusional old boomers want us to believe basketball is different :yaohappy:

Actually..

World records in a lot of key athletic disciplines haven't been broken in like 30 years. And for most of them not in the last 15 years.

100 m Sprint: Usain Bolt 9.58 s (2009) - 15 years
200 m Sprint: Usain Bolt 19.19 s (2009) - 15 years
400 m Sprint: Wayde van Niekerk 43.03 s (2016) - 8 years
800 m Run: David Rudisha 1:40.91 (2012) - 12 years
1500 m Run: Hicham El Guerrouj 3:26.00 (1998) - 26 years
High Jump: Javier Sotomayor 2.45 m (1993) -31 years
Long Jump: Mike Powell 8.95 m (1991) - 33 years
Pole Vault: Armand Duplantis 6.23 m (2023) - 1 year
Triple Jump: Jonathan Edwards 18.29 m (1995) - 29 years

By the way, the second and third best 400 m sprint times are from 1999 and 1988, the second best 800 m run time is from 1997, and the second best pole vault is from 1994.

I didn't want to list women's records because it doesn't pertain to the NBA but world records there are even older.

Your post has no basis in reality.

[RRR3]

Actually..

World records in a lot of key athletic disciplines haven't been broken in like 30 years. And for most of them not in the last 15 years.

100 m Sprint: Usain Bolt 9.58 s (2009) - 15 years
200 m Sprint: Usain Bolt 19.19 s (2009) - 15 years
400 m Sprint: Wayde van Niekerk 43.03 s (2016) - 8 years
High Jump: Javier Sotomayor 2.45 m (1993) -31 years
Long Jump: Mike Powell 8.95 m (1991) - 33 years
Triple Jump: Jonathan Edwards 18.29 m (1995) - 29 years

The second and third best 400 m sprint times are from 1999 and 1988 by the way.

And other records like Pole Vault by Sergey Bubka lasted from 1994 until it was recently broken in 2020. Heck if not for Usain Bolt who is a ridiculous outlier of epic proportions, we would still be talking about the 90's as the GOAT era of atheltics.

I didn't want to list women's records because it doesn't pertain to the NBA but world records there are even older.

Your post has no basis in reality.
Cherry picked records and some of them are still recent, not to mention steroid use was insane in the 90s. There has never been this much shooting skill league wide before, not even close. Same in baseball with the velocity.

[dankok8]

Cherry picked records and some of them are still recent, not to mention steroid use was insane in the 90s. There has never been this much shooting skill league wide before, not even close. Same in baseball with the velocity.

Nice try. The IOC has been banning steroid users since 1967.

[RRR3]

Nice try. The IOC has been banning steroid users since 1967.
Damn that means no one slipped through the cracks. Do you believe in Santa Claus too?

Couldn't refute anything else though. NOOOOO my precious Jordan Jammies era was the best you guys just ignore the much lower skill level!

[beasted]

You can not play defense in today's league.

Everything is a take foul, clear path, landing zone flagrant, etc. Every hard foul gets reviewed for a flagrant. Verticality and incidental contact are rarely called the same.

Additionally, on the other side of the ball, gather steps, carrying, traveling, double step backs, etc have allowed players to take advantage. Moving screens are never called.

This is a watered-down version of basketball.

[tpols]

Actually..

World records in a lot of key athletic disciplines haven't been broken in like 30 years. And for most of them not in the last 15 years.

100 m Sprint: Usain Bolt 9.58 s (2009) - 15 years
200 m Sprint: Usain Bolt 19.19 s (2009) - 15 years
400 m Sprint: Wayde van Niekerk 43.03 s (2016) - 8 years
800 m Run: David Rudisha 1:40.91 (2012) - 12 years
1500 m Run: Hicham El Guerrouj 3:26.00 (1998) - 26 years
High Jump: Javier Sotomayor 2.45 m (1993) -31 years
Long Jump: Mike Powell 8.95 m (1991) - 33 years
Pole Vault: Armand Duplantis 6.23 m (2023) - 1 year
Triple Jump: Jonathan Edwards 18.29 m (1995) - 29 years

By the way, the second and third best 400 m sprint times are from 1999 and 1988, the second best 800 m run time is from 1997, and the second best pole vault is from 1994.

I didn't want to list women's records because it doesn't pertain to the NBA but world records there are even older.

Your post has no basis in reality.

He's not right bringing up raw athleticism but basketball skill wise may be true particularly in regards to shooting. There were a lot of players who couldn't shoot especially from 3 back in the day. There are bum PFs who play today who make 3s at a Larry Bird level statistically. Turns out stepping a few feet back for a 50% bonus checks out math wise big time.

[RRR3]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/019/304/old.jpg



^how most of y'all sound


Look I agree Silver has ****ed up defense but pretending the league is worse skill wise is delusional. Teams would frequently start 3 guys who couldn't shoot in the 90s.

[beasted]

The biggest driver of this is the rise of the 3 point shot.

Skills and rule changes also impact, but even if nothing else had changed, a guy averaging 18-19 ppg 30 years ago now averages 20 because he hits a couple of 3s each game.

In today's league Mutombo wouldn't get a chance. That's a problem no matter how you want to paint it.

[RRR3]

In today's league Mutombo wouldn't get a chance. That's a problem no matter how you want to paint it.
Sure he would. He's the same player as Toody. Stars from any era are gonna adapt, it's the role players who have gotten far better.

[tpols]

In today's league Mutombo wouldn't get a chance. That's a problem no matter how you want to paint it.

Or he mightve trained a 3 pt shot. That wasn't really allowed for his type back in the day much. Centers didn't take 3s in the 90s or practice them. Brook Lopez didn't take 3s until the 9th season of his career and was trash when he attempted one... now he's the best stretch 5 in the league.

[beasted]

Sure he would. He's the same player as Toody. Stars from any era are gonna adapt, it's the role players who have gotten far better.


Or he mightve trained a 3 pt shot. That wasn't really allowed for his type back in the day much. Centers didn't take 3s in the 90s or practice them. Brook Lopez didn't take 3s until the 9th season of his career and was trash when he attempted one... now he's the best stretch 5 in the league.

I disagree that he'd get a chance, and you've literally highlighted a major problem. Players are asked to play to their weakness rather than strengths.

Would Mutombo have practiced and trained on 3s? Yes. But although 35% 3PT% and 55% 2PT percentage have nearly the same effective field goal percentage, what everyone overlooks is that now 7'2" Mutombo is totally out of position for offensive rebounds and the probable loose ball fouls he will cause.

So you've just taken a major strength and turned it into a weakness for wanting 3pt shooting jUsT cAuSe.

So his impact statistically would be worse, and he might not get a chance to be a 30+ minute player.

[RRR3]

I disagree that he'd get a chance, and you've literally highlighted a major problem. Players are asked to play to their weakness rather than strengths.

Would Mutombo have practiced and trained on 3s? Yes. But although 35% 3PT% and 55% 2PT percentage have nearly the same effective field goal percentage, what everyone overlooks is that now 7'2" Mutombo is totally out of position for offensive rebounds and the probable loose ball fouls he will cause.

So you've just taken a major strength and turned it into a weakness for wanting 3pt shooting jUsT cAuSe.
Why wouldn't he get a chance? Tons of startin centers in today's NBA can't shoot. These guys are all starters: Clint Capela, Robert Williams, Mitchell Robinson, Gobert, Zubac, Mark Williams, Nic Claxton, Jalen Duren, Jarrett Allen, Derrick Lively/Daniel Gafford, Kevon Looney, Steven Adams, Isaiah Hartenstein (starting now due to injury for Robinson), Jakob Poeltl, and Walker Kessler. And then you have Bam Adebayo and Deandre Ayton who can shoot midrange but don't take 3s. Guys like AD, Valanciunas, Sabonis, Nurkic, Embiid and Jokic will take 3s but it's not a major part of their game. The only starting centers who take 3s with any regularity are Myles Turner, Porzingis, KAT (playing PF now though), Vucevic, Brook Lopez, Chet Holmgren, Wendell Carter Jr., Jaren Jackson Jr. and Wemby.

[Xiao Yao You]

I disagree that he'd get a chance, and you've literally highlighted a major problem. Players are asked to play to their weakness rather than strengths.

Would Mutombo have practiced and trained on 3s? Yes. But although 35% 3PT% and 55% 2PT percentage have nearly the same effective field goal percentage, what everyone overlooks is that now 7'2" Mutombo is totally out of position for offensive rebounds and the probable loose ball fouls he will cause.

So you've just taken a major strength and turned it into a weakness for wanting 3pt shooting jUsT cAuSe.

So his impact statistically would be worse, and he might not get a chance to be a 30+ minute player.

Which they like to get on Gobert for. The guy plays to his strengths. That's a good thing.

I certainly don't think shooting 3's and palming,traveling, double dribbling, throwing body parts into the D for fouls, flopping makes one more skilled either. Players today are limited in a lot more ways than players of the past who had fundamentals taught at an early age. No they weren't shooting 3's but they could do a lot of other things that most players can't today. Layups are an adventure for many today not to mention a mid range shot. Most righties can't make a layup on the left side of the basket with their left hand which is the way it should be done to keep the ball away from the defender. I learned that the first time I did a layup line as a kid

[FKAri]

More 3's
No big man in the paint
Better scorers


The game is hard to defend now. When teams build squads around lineups with 4 shooters sometimes 5 and space it out, it's incredibly hard to defend that.
Agree


The game cannot revolutionize any more in terms of style. This is the peak of taking advantage of the scoring system in the NBA.

Not even Shaq in today's league would change how teams play much because he would give up as many points by exploiting him on defense as he would get on offense.
I'll be back in 20 years to shit on this era too. Especially the analytics. They've thrown away too many established basketball concepts to chase analytic suggestions. It'll correct itself but some basketball concepts that are accepted as truths will forever be in the bin.

As for Shaq, it's in the hands of the refs and Silver. He'd be whatever they let him get away with. If he's given enough leeway he absolutely can force you to match him rather than the other way around. Drop coverage is a small price to pay for posting Shaq up on modern bigs. Just hit your FTs and avoid foul trouble.

[NBAGOAT]

More 3's
No big man in the paint
Better scorers


Agree

I'll be back in 20 years to shit on this era too. Especially the analytics. They've thrown away too many established basketball concepts to chase analytic suggestions. It'll correct itself but some basketball concepts that are accepted as truths will forever be in the bin.

As for Shaq, it's in the hands of the refs and Silver. He'd be whatever they let him get away with. If he's given enough leeway he absolutely can force you to match him rather than the other way around. Drop coverage is a small price to pay for posting Shaq up on modern bigs. Just hit your FTs and avoid foul trouble.

some of those concepts definitely shouldnt have been so easily accepted tbf. Also analytics will be at another level in 20 years with AI

[beasted]

Which they like to get on Gobert for. The guy plays to his strengths. That's a good thing.

I certainly don't think shooting 3's and palming,traveling, double dribbling, throwing body parts into the D for fouls, flopping makes one more skilled either. Players today are limited in a lot more ways than players of the past who had fundamentals taught at an early age. No they weren't shooting 3's but they could do a lot of other things that most players can't today. Layups are an adventure for many today not to mention a mid range shot. Most righties can't make a layup on the left side of the basket with their left hand which is the way it should be done to keep the ball away from the defender. I learned that the first time I did a layup line as a kid

I literally do not believe Gobert improved one single offensive skill in all of his years in the league.

Not a better free throw shooter, shooter, passer, dribbler, post up player, better at tip ins/putbacks, better at catching the ball/errant passes.... LITERALLY nothing.

Gobert is totally different subject. It's not just about playing to your strengths, it's finding ways to overcome your weaknesses, and he has left all that up to the coaches designing the system, but no individual development.

[beasted]

Why wouldn't he get a chance? Tons of startin centers in today's NBA can't shoot. These guys are all starters: Clint Capela, Robert Williams, Mitchell Robinson, Gobert, Zubac, Mark Williams, Nic Claxton, Jalen Duren, Jarrett Allen, Derrick Lively/Daniel Gafford, Kevon Looney, Steven Adams, Isaiah Hartenstein (starting now due to injury for Robinson), Jakob Poeltl, and Walker Kessler. And then you have Bam Adebayo and Deandre Ayton who can shoot midrange but don't take 3s. Guys like AD, Valanciunas, Sabonis, Nurkic, Embiid and Jokic will take 3s but it's not a major part of their game. The only starting centers who take 3s with any regularity are Myles Turner, Porzingis, KAT (playing PF now though), Vucevic, Brook Lopez, Chet Holmgren, Wendell Carter Jr., Jaren Jackson Jr. and Wemby.

Nearly every single player you mentioned sits on the bench in the final 3-4 minutes of a close game. Additionally, players like Jarret Allen were given away for nothing because he didn't fit a certain system. Same with Capella.

Players don't get the same opportunities if offensively limited. It's easy to envision an alternate universe where Mutombo lands on the wrong squad and ends up becoming a limited use player rather than a core pillar of a team.

[RRR3]

Nearly every single player you mentioned sits on the bench in the final 3-4 minutes of a close game. Additionally, players like Jarret Allen were given away for nothing because he didn't fit a certain system. Same with Capella.

Players don't get the same opportunities if offensively limited. It's easy to envision an alternate universe where Mutombo lands on the wrong squad and ends up becoming a limited use player rather than a core pillar of a team.
But you were claiming Mutombo wouldn't get a chance to prove himself, and I just named a bunch of players of the same archetype who get a lot of playing time. He would get 25+ minutes for sure. Maybe he would get benched in certain situations, yeah, but that's not the same as not getting a shot.

[Xiao Yao You]

I literally do not believe Gobert improved one single offensive skill in all of his years in the league.

Not a better free throw shooter, shooter, passer, dribbler, post up player, better at tip ins/putbacks, better at catching the ball/errant passes.... LITERALLY nothing.

Gobert is totally different subject. It's not just about playing to your strengths, it's finding ways to overcome your weaknesses, and he has left all that up to the coaches designing the system, but no individual development.

He shot 49% from the line his rookie year. 56% his 3rd year. Has been as high as 72% his last year in Utah when he went to the line the most. He's gotten better at drawing fouls. Definitely a better passer especially on the roll to the corner shooters. He's never posted up since it's not as efficient of a shot as throwing it up above everyone else at the rim so hard to say he's gotten better or worse at something he doesn't do. I'd say he's a better shooter but again it's not something he really does because again he plays to his strengths instead of doing things that aren't as efficient. Certainly gotten more comfortable dribbling but again something he doesn't do much. He's been one of the best at tip ins for a long time so there's only so much better you can get before the eventual decline which hasn't happened yet. His hands have certainly gotten a lot better. Had horrible hands. Coach Jensen and him used a football to improve that I believe. Night and day. He had a hard time with The Matador's errant passes at his ankles understandably.

You might not want to comment on things you aren't familiar with? To say he hasn't put in the work to become the player he is is laughable. He was drafted as a project mostly because of his elite length. Was behind Favors and Kanter their top big prospects. Became their best player within 18 months of being drafted and is the 3rd most impactful player in Jazz history. Has to rank pretty high in Timberwolves history already too. Has came a long ways since than as he helps lead the top team in his conference

[beasted]

But you were claiming Mutombo wouldn't get a chance to prove himself, and I just named a bunch of players of the same archetype who get a lot of playing time. He would get 25+ minutes for sure. Maybe he would get benched in certain situations, yeah, but that's not the same as not getting a shot.
It's extremely circumstantial. So you don't see an alternate universe where he could land on a squad of limited range wings and they opt to play a stretch big instead?

Let's say he lands on a college team which has Zion, Wendell Carter and himself. Despite having WAYmore impact that Carter could ever have, because of Zion, Mutombo is sent to rot on the bench.

What happens if that drops his stock so much he's never drafted, or let's instead say that scenario happens at the NBA level after being drafted? It's very possible.

[beasted]

He shot 49% from the line his rookie year. 56% his 3rd year. Has been as high as 72% his last year in Utah when he went to the line the most. He's gotten better at drawing fouls. Definitely a better passer especially on the roll to the corner shooters. He's never posted up since it's not as efficient of a shot as throwing it up above everyone else at the rim so hard to say he's gotten better or worse at something he doesn't do. I'd say he's a better shooter but again it's not something he really does because again he plays to his strengths instead of doing things that aren't as efficient. Certainly gotten more comfortable dribbling but again something he doesn't do much. He's been one of the best at tip ins for a long time so there's only so much better you can get before the eventual decline which hasn't happened yet. His hands have certainly gotten a lot better. Had horrible hands. Coach Jensen and him used a football to improve that I believe. Night and day. He had a hard time with The Matador's errant passes at his ankles understandably.

You might not want to comment on things you aren't familiar with? To say he hasn't put in the work to become the player he is is laughable. He was drafted as a project mostly because of his elite length. Was behind Favors and Kanter their top big prospects. Became their best player within 18 months of being drafted and is the 3rd most impactful player in Jazz history. Has to rank pretty high in Timberwolves history already too. Has came a long ways since than as he helps lead the top team in his conference

It doesn't pass the eye test. You're the last person to ask because you're clearly biased.

His numbers fell off a cliff in a new system which tells me all of his improvements are system based. None of them are individual skill improvements.

His FIBA numbers though limited also do not speak to any improvements either. I have no clue what you're talking about.

[Xiao Yao You]

It doesn't pass the eye test. You're the last person to ask because you're clearly biased.

His numbers fell off a cliff in a new system which tells me all of his improvements are system based. None of them are individual skill improvements.

His FIBA numbers though limited also do not speak to any improvements either. I have no clue what you're talking about.

biased or actually seen most of his games in Utah unlike anyone else here that knows him from clips posted

His numbers are different because the offense no longer revolves around him as it did in Utah. Plays a different role with different guys which is why saying the same thing will happen in the playoffs with different guys is stupid. His numbers with Conley are the same. I'm talking facts. I posted FT % that refute what you're pushing. I said he had horrible hands. They certainly improved. You don't set dunk records and become one of the most efficient players in history if they don't. While you go on about him not improving things that have never been part of his game

[beasted]

biased or actually seen most of his games in Utah unlike anyone else here that knows him from clips posted

His numbers are different because the offense no longer revolves around him as it did in Utah. Plays a different role with different guys which is why saying the same thing will happen in the playoffs with different guys is stupid. His numbers with Conley are the same. I'm talking facts. I posted FT % that refute what you're pushing. I said he had horrible hands. They certainly improved. You don't set dunk records and become one of the most efficient players in history if they don't. While you go on about him not improving things that have never been part of his game
You literally just agreed he's a system player so I'm not sure what the disagreement is here.

If you plotted his season-over-season stats to a graph and then mapped trend lines across his PPP, AST%, FTr, FT%, and PER you'd find little to no improvement. If you plotted his OWS and OBPM, you'd find a negative slope. If you did these same exercises across his playoff numbers, you'd more or less find the same.

As far as the eye test, if you watched his game from rookie to now, he hasn't added any post moves. He hasn't added any ability to create offense off of the dribble hand off. That is a staple of the modern offense and he essentially just cannot do it, like at all. He just hasn't measurably improved in any of these areas on offense.

He's a quality player that impacts the game heavily defensively. Offensively he has shown no growth by both the eye test and stats.

[RRR3]

It's extremely circumstantial. So you don't see an alternate universe where he could land on a squad of limited range wings and they opt to play a stretch big instead?

Let's say he lands on a college team which has Zion, Wendell Carter and himself. Despite having WAYmore impact that Carter could ever have, because of Zion, Mutombo is sent to rot on the bench.

What happens if that drops his stock so much he's never drafted, or let's instead say that scenario happens at the NBA level after being drafted? It's very possible.
Sure, guys can end up in bad situations. They usually get traded to better ones one way or another though. Zion is an extreme example, because he's (off the top of my head) the only power forward besides Giannis who can't shoot 3s.

[beasted]

Sure, guys can end up in bad situations. They usually get traded to better ones one way or another though. Zion is an extreme example, because he's (off the top of my head) the only power forward besides Giannis who can't shoot 3s.

But my point stands that regardless of HOF caliber defense, guys of that ilk get deprioritized in today's league. As an example, Kessler is a bench player. Despite the Jazz being 26th defensively and every single starter having a negative DBPM, they simply say "we don't care" and bench him anyway.

I agree that you'd expect with greats like Mutombo a modern day team would just have no other choice but to play him and he rises above like Rudy does, but then again there are some incompetent GMs and coaches in this league.

[RRR3]

But my point stands that regardless of HOF caliber defense, guys of that ilk get deprioritized in today's league. As an example, Kessler is a bench player. Despite the Jazz being 26th defensively and every single starter having a negative DBPM, they simply say "we don't care" and bench him anyway.

I agree that you'd expect with greats like Mutombo a modern day team would just have no other choice but to play him and he rises above like Rudy does, but then again there are some incompetent GMs and coaches in this league.
Kessler is starting now, he was benched because of a logjam due to weird team building.

[Xiao Yao You]

You literally just agreed he's a system player so I'm not sure what the disagreement is here.

If you plotted his season-over-season stats to a graph and then mapped trend lines across his PPP, AST%, FTr, FT%, and PER you'd find little to no improvement. If you plotted his OWS and OBPM, you'd find a negative slope. If you did these same exercises across his playoff numbers, you'd more or less find the same.

As far as the eye test, if you watched his game from rookie to now, he hasn't added any post moves. He hasn't added any ability to create offense off of the dribble hand off. That is a staple of the modern offense and he essentially just cannot do it, like at all. He just hasn't measurably improved in any of these areas on offense.

He's a quality player that impacts the game heavily defensively. Offensively he has shown no growth by both the eye test and stats.

the disagreement over Gobert not improving at all from a project to all NBA 4 time DPOTY? Why would a rim runner be adding post moves he's not going to get to use? A big part of his offense with the Jazz was off the DHO. His offense certainly improved. Took a big leap offensively in 2016-17. When you become one of the best at what you do there's only so much room for improvement

[Baller234]

Players have gotten better in every sport over time as training methods, analytics and technology and sports medicine have advanced. You can see it in Olympic records. But delusional old boomers want us to believe basketball is different :yaohappy:

You realize that if you removed the 3 point line, more than half the league would become instantly useless right?

People often criticize older players like Charles Oakley and they'll say "He wouldn't even have a job in today's NBA"... okay well the same is also true in reverse. Without spacing, without freedom of movement and without a back to the basket game, a lot of today's players would be food back in the 80's and 90's just the same.

It's not like there weren't great shooters back then, but being a great shooter by itself wasn't enough to make you stand out. A lot of today's guys would be Steve Kerr, just another guy off the bench patiently waiting for a spot up jumper. Not sure what else they'd be useful for.

Today's players aren't necessarily "better". In reality they are just playing a totally different game.

[BarberSchool]

https://youtu.be/sbbBV0I2lA0?feature=shared

1:01-

[beasted]

the disagreement over Gobert not improving at all from a project to all NBA 4 time DPOTY? Why would a rim runner be adding post moves he's not going to get to use? A big part of his offense with the Jazz was off the DHO. His offense certainly improved. Took a big leap offensively in 2016-17. When you become one of the best at what you do there's only so much room for improvement
He has improved defensively and improved his defensive individual skills, to get to DPOY. But on the other end of the floor he simply waits for the coach to maximize his strengths with a system offensively. He's not figuring out how to make it happen himself.

Individual offensive skill-wise, he has not improved by any statistical measure. I charted the numbers in Excel real quick just to be sure of what I was saying, and the trends are just not in his favor. A minimal positive gradient or actually slightly negative in all the categories I mentioned. His assist to turnover rate has been negative essentially his entire career, so it's wild that you mention he's improved in the DHO.

But he plays within the system offensively, just hasn't diversified his skill set to adapt at all. If Terrance Mann shuts him down, he's not the type to suddenly think about ways to abuse him in the post by developing the ability to take two dribbles and hit a hook shot or spin off of him and dunk as a 7'2 player over a 6'5 player by practicing all summer. He just doesn't have any desire (just my opinion) to improve his offense. He seemingly just takes the Doc Rivers approach: No adjustments allowed. Which is fine. He's making a max salary, so who am I to second guess his life strategy? If it's getting him paid the big bucks, not broke, don't fix it. But I'm not going to pretend he improved offensively either.

[Xiao Yao You]

He has improved defensively and improved his defensive individual skills, to get to DPOY. But on the other end of the floor he simply waits for the coach to maximize his strengths with a system offensively. He's not figuring out how to make it happen himself.

Individual offensive skill-wise, he has not improved by any statistical measure. I charted the numbers in Excel real quick just to be sure of what I was saying, and the trends are just not in his favor. A minimal positive gradient or actually slightly negative in all the categories I mentioned. His assist to turnover rate has been negative essentially his entire career, so it's wild that you mention he's improved in the DHO.

But he plays within the system offensively, just hasn't diversified his skill set to adapt at all. If Terrance Mann shuts him down, he's not the type to suddenly think about ways to abuse him in the post by developing the ability to take two dribbles and hit a hook shot or spin off of him and dunk as a 7'2 player over a 6'5 player by practicing all summer. He just doesn't have any desire (just my opinion) to improve his offense. He seemingly just takes the Doc Rivers approach: No adjustments allowed. Which is fine. He's making a max salary, so who am I to second guess his life strategy? If it's getting him paid the big bucks, not broke, don't fix it. But I'm not going to pretend he improved offensively either.

might need an Excel update if 49% to 72% isn't improvement :lol

[beasted]

might need an Excel update if 49% to 72% isn't improvement :lol

Except I never mentioned anything about FG% (the bottom barrel of player scoring analysis). PPP he had barely any positive slope. If you chopped off the first 2 seasons it is actually negative if I recall.

[Xiao Yao You]

Except I never mentioned anything about FG% (the bottom barrel of player scoring analysis). PPP he had barely any positive slope. If you chopped off the first 2 seasons it is actually negative if I recall.


If you plotted his season-over-season stats to a graph and then mapped trend lines across his PPP, AST%, FTr, FT%, and PER you'd find little to no improvement. If you plotted his OWS and OBPM, you'd find a negative slope. If you did these same exercises across his playoff numbers, you'd more or less find the same.

:facepalm

[beasted]

:facepalm

You're a biased fool. At no point in his career did Gobert average a 72% FT%.

The highest he's ever averaged was 69.0%. Using the trend line as a mathematical expression, his improvement rate was 2.03% from rookie season until now.

That's essentially no improvement.

[beasted]

My bad just recalculated, it's 3.11%. Pathetic

[dankok8]

Damn that means no one slipped through the cracks. Do you believe in Santa Claus too?

Couldn't refute anything else though. NOOOOO my precious Jordan Jammies era was the best you guys just ignore the much lower skill level!

I was responding to your totally false claim that Olympic disciplines have advanced greatly. Four disciplines in athletics still have records set in the 90's and three others have the second best performers in the 90's. Then you got butthurt and started making dubious claims about steroids.


He's not right bringing up raw athleticism but basketball skill wise may be true particularly in regards to shooting. There were a lot of players who couldn't shoot especially from 3 back in the day. There are bum PFs who play today who make 3s at a Larry Bird level statistically. Turns out stepping a few feet back for a 50% bonus checks out math wise big time.

More guys shoot threes better today because there's been a big style change. More guys were better in terms of post moves back then.

[Xiao Yao You]

You're a biased fool. At no point in his career did Gobert average a 72% FT%.

The highest he's ever averaged was 69.0%. Using the trend line as a mathematical expression, his improvement rate was 2.03% from rookie season until now.

That's essentially no improvement.

misread it earlier From 49% to 69% on his most attempts. Pretty impressive for a guy that didn't put in any work to improve at that end. Big difference between a Shaq like 49% and 69% while drawing more fouls in the process. 49% FG% to the rarified air of 71%. league leading for 3rd time. EFG % is pretty much the same. . .6 ass per 36 to 2,2. Tripled whatever % you have on your spreadsheet. TO from 2.7 to a career low of 1.7 this season. ORtg from 94 to 137 2nd in league. 51 % TS to league leading 73%. league leading for 3rd time. FTr from .64 to .84. TO% from 24% when he had awful hands to 12% after working hard on catching the ball between all of that not working at all on his game and just enjoying his money. Usage from 14 to 18 at the same time so he was doing all this with more responsibility as well. OWS from -.2 to 8.7. OBPM from -3.6 to 3. FG% at rim from 59 when he couldn't catch the ball to 80%. 3-10 from 13% TO 47%. 10-16 from 0% TO 75. 16-3pt 0 to 36%. % of unassisted from 60 to 77%. Must have worked on his dribbling or something after all instead of just working on his body and counting his money? Sorry no Excel graphs for you to go over just the hard cold facts :cheers:

[beasted]

Lazy approach takes his lowest season and highest season and ignores the roller coaster all along his career.

This is why math exists. Try again.

[RogueBorg]

.

Your post has no basis in reality.

Go figure...

[Xiao Yao You]

Lazy approach takes his lowest season and highest season and ignores the roller coaster all along his career.

This is why math exists. Try again.


lazy would say there was no improvement ever which factually is way off base even without Excel

[hold this L]

Players have gotten better in every sport over time as training methods, analytics and technology and sports medicine have advanced. You can see it in Olympic records. But delusional old boomers want us to believe basketball is different :yaohappy:

Shooting completely tanked for the first 2-3 months of the 21-22 season when the rules shifted back. Of course there's much better quantity of talent now than ever before, but the rules are atrocious.

[hiphopanonymous]

Anyone who thinks its as simple as "shooters got better" - do you even play or just repeat shit other people say?

Yeah shooters got better at shooting the shots given to them in this era... Shooters in other eras were BETTER at the shots given to them in that era. Mids in a packed paint, etc. Have guys today be given the options to score in other eras and they'll be a fish out of water as well with what defenses were allowed and how it pressured them to adjust their game for the best shots available.

- Today players can carry the ball and travel by prior eras standards giving total freedom to change direction forward backward sideways etc all in better balance. Offensive players always had the initiative... now they have initiative plus virtually unencumbered freedom to move which takes away the whole original point of dribbling. There's a reason it used to be palms down. Not a single player in the league today knows how to dribble according to 40 years ago. Does that affect shooting percentage? You bet it does. Staying balanced as you get into your spots and into your shots and creating space between yourself and your defender is all key to maximizing your shooting percentage. Try shooting the same percentage with a palms down dribble and 2 steps max after an EARLY gather... with a defender draped on you (one that CAN maintain contact and sideways or backwards pressure). If you don't know what I'm talking about, you don't even play I guarantee it.

- Defenders can't touch you on OR off ball now.
.... the most impeccably perfect footwork and a hand in the face does not phase a dialed in shooter. You HAVE to be able to bump people, pull the chair, pressure and wear them down. It DOES affect long range shooters. Especially ones that have to dribble with their hand on top of the ball instead of anywhere on the ball including underneath and can't pause it at the apex. These things gradually changed over time. It's the loosest offensive rules and the weakest defensive rules now than I've ever seen in NBA history and I watch literally all the eras unlike most who've ever tried to comment on this topic. There are some great shooters in the league right now that would be great in any era... and there's 40 or 50 frauds with weirdly high percentages that couldn't do what they do under a different rule set and would have had to play a completely different role in a hypothetical era change.

- Offensive players can also now push off, hook, etc. Which is opposite of prior eras where if anything - it was the defense getting away with a lot of that. "but shooting today is the best look at the percentages! They know how to shoot better/figured it out!"

Yeah. So shooting percentages are at an all time high... GO FIGURE right? If you have ever played the game with any kind of variety or purpose you understand what I'm talking about. Armchair heads out here acting like the game happens on paper. "Buuuut check the $tats of this eras shooters!"

:facepalm

[tpols]

Yeah shooters got better at shooting the shots given to them in this era... Shooters in other eras were BETTER at the shots given to them in that era. Mids in a packed paint, etc.

Um no... they had plenty of opportunity to shoot 3s if they wanted. Defenses literally sagged into the paint all the time especially on SFs, PFs, and Cs. Even skilled guards like Stockton were wide open at the 3pt line.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2017/uU810L.gif

And that doesn't even do it justice. Watch the YouTube clip and you'll see John was wide open.

It was considered taboo back in the day to take lots of 3s. Players could've practiced them and taken them if they wanted because they were no doubt open. They even shortened the 3pt line. :lol :facepalm

Give me a break. The unlocking of the 3pt shot on a masse level not only increased points scored it gave way for incredible spacing lanes for penetrating stars.

The game is softer now but it's much harder to rough guys up that are taking 3s as opposed to banging in the midrange and paint.

[Xiao Yao You]

Um no... they had plenty of opportunity to shoot 3s if they wanted. Defenses literally sagged into the paint all the time especially on SFs, PFs, and Cs. Even skilled guards like Stockton were wide open at the 3pt line.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2017/uU810L.gif

And that doesn't even do it justice. Watch the YouTube clip and you'll see John was wide open.

It was considered taboo back in the day to take lots of 3s. Players could've practiced them and taken them if they wanted because they were no doubt open. They even shortened the 3pt line. :lol :facepalm

Give me a break. The unlocking of the 3pt shot on a masse level not only increased points scored it gave way for incredible spacing lanes for penetrating stars.

The game is softer now but it's much harder to rough guys up that are taking 3s as opposed to banging in the midrange and paint.

they didn't really have the opportunity. Sloan didn't like the 3 pointer. He'd have benched someone if they were firing a bunch of 3's and unlike today his way was the only way. Players would go not the coach. They chose him over Deron. Before him they chose a comedian over AD

[hiphopanonymous]

Um no... they had plenty of opportunity to shoot 3s if they wanted. Defenses literally sagged into the paint all the time especially on SFs, PFs, and Cs. Even skilled guards like Stockton were wide open at the 3pt line.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2017/uU810L.gif

And that doesn't even do it justice. Watch the YouTube clip and you'll see John was wide open.

It was considered taboo back in the day to take lots of 3s. Players could've practiced them and taken them if they wanted because they were no doubt open. They even shortened the 3pt line. :lol :facepalm

Give me a break. The unlocking of the 3pt shot on a masse level not only increased points scored it gave way for incredible spacing lanes for penetrating stars.

The game is softer now but it's much harder to rough guys up that are taking 3s as opposed to banging in the midrange and paint.
The 3 point shot was "unlocked" in the freaking 60s and 70's in the Eastern League and ABA. It was taken advantage of to the extent of its effectiveness at winning games. I'll say this without reservation. Any fan, analyst, or even active or former players are overconfident idiots full of hubris if they think the most competitive athletes and coaches didn't understand the best strategies at how to win games back then. They understood those eras BETTER than today's fans and players understand those eras. Even you, who might be some old fan for all I know who watched both eras, probably aren't thinking this through and are just repeating a bunch of shit other people say.

I'm guessing you've played some right? You know darn well your abilities set you up for the next shots. Which also preps the defense for what they do next. Your abilities and the defense are both determined by the rules.

You'll get open shots in any era...

...if you bust your ass at playing a certain way that pulls the defense into defending you that certain way they're allowed.

It truly was more effective to play the way Stockton and many other guards / forwards etc played in the 90s than to stupidly assume todays shooters would just have a free lunch out there all game. Say one of todays shooters time travels and shows those 90s guys how nice his deep 3 is... ok are they a bunch of robots!? ...next play what do you think happens? A guy doesn't ride his hip? Steer him at half court with some elbows and hands? They're allowed to do that dummy. Which leads to what next? The shooter has to put the ball on the floor or pass it. My money is he puts the ball on the floor and tries one of those stupid late gather TRAVELS and flubs his effort to the rim ...turnover style. Now the team knows this dude can't drive... not with the rules they played by at least. So just defend the 3 - with contact. Threat mitigated. Until the modern guy recalibrates... to basically play how those players figured out how to play.

[tpols]

they didn't really have the opportunity. Sloan didn't like the 3 pointer. He'd have benched someone if they were firing a bunch of 3's and unlike today his way was the only way. Players would go not the coach. They chose him over Deron. Before him they chose a comedian over AD


That's exactly what I'm saying though. The 3pt shot was no doubt open to take... even more open than today with those sagging defenses. But it was taboo to launch 3s. The same forwards that would take long 2 pointers are hitting 3s instead with much greater point output.

Got players like PJ Washington who isn't even a real shooter making more 3s per game than Larry Bird ever did on almost the same efficiency. Like... players did get better at 3s tremendously and it made a difference.

It's harder to rough up long jumpshooters than post bangers. Reggie Miller is the best proof of that... he was rail thin and upper body weak and he flourished in a tough 90s east playoff atmosphere.