Jokic is Already Better Offensive Player than Jordan and LeBron - Prove me Wrong

[8Ball]

The man is about to win his 3rd MVP in 4 seasons.

Is the best player in the league currently and has been since probably 2021.

His peak play is as good as any other all time great peak.


Who was ever better than him as a complete offensive package?


Peak Bird? No.
Peak Shaq? Maybe.
Peak Jordan? Maybe.
Peak Bron? Maybe.

[SATAN]

Not sure how to evaluate Jokic without seeing him play through an era with better defense tbh.

You're obviously right about him being better than Jordan though.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Comparing the stats of Jordan's era to this era of neutered defense is impossible. If you go by this season SGA is one of the greatest offensive guards of all time.

[FultzNationRISE]

Well Lebron is the best offensive player ever. And hes also the best defensive player ever.

Hes also the best player on special teams.

But Jokic is probably second. And of course a part of that is the spacing in Jokic’s era, the current game simply makes it easier to be a better offensive player, scoring and passing. Thats not his fault, thats just simply the way the game has evolved. Players play better offense now.

He also gets a rap as a bad defender because of his era, which he wouldnt if hed played 30 years ago. So it goes both ways.

[StrongLurk]

Hard to compare players in their primes now in the current era to previous eras.

With that being said, I really think Jokic is just as good or better than Bird. Sure, Jokic needs another ring to solidify that in most people's minds, but just looking at on court performance I think Jokic is better.

Jokic's playoff run last year was completely historic, and yet it still feels a little underrated among common fans because he's still a slow, unathletic, European guy.

[Carbine]

It's MJ and everyone else when it comes to best playoff offensive player.

[8Ball]

Comparing the stats of Jordan's era to this era of neutered defense is impossible. If you go by this season SGA is one of the greatest offensive guards of all time.

I did not compare stats at all in my OP across any era.


If you take Jokic's entire offensive package, he is up there or better than Jordan and possibly Bron.



His ability to pass the ball at 7 feet + his ability to score efficiently from all 3 ranges makes sure he gives his team a good possession every time.

[iamgine]

This kind of stuff is opinion and cannot be proven either way.

[Jimmy Rustler]

Definitely a better player than Lebron. He's got a ways to go to catch Jordan though.

Wembanyama's probably going to surpass all three of them.

[Baller234]

Jordan's ability to score supersedes anything you get from Jokic. When push comes to shove, you would way rather have the ball in Jordan's hands.

If Jordan and Joker were on the same team, and it's one or two possession game, guess what... Jordan is the one getting the ball.

[1987_Lakers]

Definitely a better player than Lebron. He's got a ways to go to catch Jordan though.

Wembanyama's probably going to surpass all three of them.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=30&dateline=1264680732

[1987_Lakers]

And I don't think it's a crazy statement to make. MJ is the GOAT scorer, but we have never seen someone who scores as efficiently as Jokic while also being a top 5 passer ever. He is scoring around 26 a game on 58 fg% these last 4 years while passing the ball on a level very few have reached.

[8Ball]

Jordan's ability to score supersedes anything you get from Jokic. When push comes to shove, you would way rather have the ball in Jordan's hands.

If Jordan and Joker were on the same team, and it's one or two possession game, guess what... Jordan is the one getting the ball.

I would rather have the ball in Jokic's hands for the entire game to start the possession rather than Jordan. I can run so much more action on the court. I can abuse mismatches a lot easier.

Jordan's "shooting" represents only ~30-35% usage rate for the entire game + secondary action movements. I get more from Jokic.


Jokic shoots 35% from 3 as a 7 footer. I am giving him the ball in a 1-2 possession game.

[8Ball]

Jokic at his absolute peak is a marginally better half court offensive player than LeBron at his peak, and vastly better half court offensively than peak Jordan.


LeBron though has the massive edge in transition offensive plays and I would say Jordan has an edge there too over Jokic.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I did not compare stats at all in my OP across any era.


If you take Jokic's entire offensive package, he is up there or better than Jordan and possibly Bron.



His ability to pass the ball at 7 feet + his ability to score efficiently from all 3 ranges makes sure he gives his team a good possession every time.Any time Jokic's greatness is contextualized his stats are what illustrate his dominance. Ditto Jordan. It's just how great players get compared. Sure he gives his team a "good possession every time." So did Jordan. So did every great offensive player. Jordan averaged 35 points on 53% shooting along with 6 assists in much tougher defensive era. It's completely impossible to guess what he does to a modern NBA that wouldn't be allowed to get physical with him and he has 3 or even 4 guys out there with him that can hit threes, creating even more space and converting his passes to assists at a higher rate.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jokic is great but with a championship on the line MJ is certainly the guy I'd want with the ball in any era. Proved it too many times

[Im Still Ballin]

He's a top candidate that's for sure.

[8Ball]

Any time Jokic's greatness is contextualized his stats are what illustrate his dominance. Ditto Jordan. It's just how great players get compared. Sure he gives his team a "good possession every time." So did Jordan. So did every great offensive player. Jordan averaged 35 points on 53% shooting along with 6 assists in much tougher defensive era. It's completely impossible to guess what he does to a modern NBA that wouldn't be allowed to get physical with him and he has 3 or even 4 guys out there with him that can hit threes, creating even more space and converting his passes to assists at a higher rate.

Fair enough point.


As great of a possession Jordan gave his teammates, Jokic does it at a higher level.


His pick and roll game with another guard is so difficult to stop since he can pick and pop with 35-38% 3 point shooting. He is also pretty good at the mid range.
He can roll and pass at elite league level.
He can even post up and score if they switch.

He can run the offence deep in the post and at 7 feet + great passing ability can get the ball almost anywhere he wants.

You can't hack a shaq him since he shoots 82% with free throws.



Would the game be more difficult for him offensively with less spacing? Yeah I can see that.

Then we can make the argument that defensively with less spacing the game would be much much easier for him to be a defender. Overall a net zero benefit for him.

[Carbine]

Jokic did not play well for him in the WCF against the Lakers a few years back. He also got swept the next year while not particularly playing well either.

He doesn't have the continued dominance of Jordan in the playoffs where he did it over and over again.

Jokic has one all time great playoff run. Jordan has several.

In the playoffs, it's much more about individual greatness than it is "team offense"

[8Ball]

Jokic is great but with a championship on the line MJ is certainly the guy I'd want with the ball in any era. Proved it too many times

Championship on the line he massacred everyone in 2023.


If you are arguing you need to see Jokic win more times to be named the GOAT, yes I agree, what he has done so far isn't enough. But offensively we have seen 4 years already of Jokic. 3 MVPs (if he wins 2024) out of 4 years. And he pretty much gets his MVP votes based solely on his offensive prowess.

[8Ball]

Jokic did not play well for him in the WCF against the Lakers a few years back. He also got swept the next year while not particularly playing well either.

He doesn't have the continued dominance of Jordan in the playoffs where he did it over and over again.

Jokic has one all time great playoff run. Jordan has several.

In the playoffs, it's much more about individual greatness than it is "team offense"

2020 wasn't his peak and LeBron and AD were playing superb

2021 and 2022 Jamal Murray wasn't playing in the playoffs due to injury


Losing in today's game as the only star on your team is quite normal. The league is mega stacked right now with star power on every top team.

[Baller234]

I would rather have the ball in Jokic's hands for the entire game to start the possession rather than Jordan. I can run so much more action on the court. I can abuse mismatches a lot easier.

Jordan's "shooting" represents only ~30-35% usage rate for the entire game + secondary action movements. I get more from Jokic.


Jokic shoots 35% from 3 as a 7 footer. I am giving him the ball in a 1-2 possession game.

Uh oh guys, he brought out that the stats.

"Usage rate! Efficiency!"

.....


Jokic is nowhere near the bucket getter that Jordan is. He's really good and can score in a lot of ways but he's also lumbering and slow. Sometimes it's enough and sometimes it isn't. We saw how much he had to lean on Murray in the playoffs and in the finals. He doesn't win without that two man game.

Jordan is one of the few players in history where all you have to do is give him the ball and he takes care of the rest.

[tpols]

The thing about Jokic is he dimes in a way that enhances everybody and produces teams with great ball movement and team assist ranks. Denver was #2 in assists last year and top 5 this year.

MJ and Kobes teams also won rings with top 5 assist rank teams because they used the triangle to swing the ball around. 2009 Lakers were #2 ranked. So we're Larry Birds, Magic Johnsons, Duncan's, Currys, etc. So being able to get your production while playing a high level brand of ball matters.

You can't include Lebron in that discussion because he's never won with a team that has great ball movement. His 1st chip his team was ranked 21st, then the 2016 chip they were ranked 13th, and the Disney tournament ring they were 10th. He can't achieve his stats in a high level system.

[Xiao Yao You]

Championship on the line he massacred everyone in 2023.


If you are arguing you need to see Jokic win more times to be named the GOAT, yes I agree, what he has done so far isn't enough. But offensively we have seen 4 years already of Jokic. 3 MVPs (if he wins 2024) out of 4 years. And he pretty much gets his MVP votes based solely on his offensive prowess.

He's also in an era where no one has a chance against him. Jokic going against a huge front line every night in the 80's or 90's would be a different ball game

[Im Still Ballin]

The thing about Jokic is he dimes in a way that enhances everybody and produces teams with great ball movement and team assist ranks. Denver was #2 in assists last year and top 5 this year.

MJ and Kobes teams also won rings with top 5 assist rank teams because they used the triangle to swing the ball around. 2009 Lakers were #2 ranked. So we're Larry Birds, Magic Johnsons, Duncan's, Currys, etc. So being able to get your production while playing a high level brand of ball matters.

You can't include Lebron in that discussion because he's never won with a team that has great ball movement. His 1st chip his team was ranked 21st, then the 2016 chip they were ranked 13th, and the Disney tournament ring they were 10th. He can't achieve his stats in a high level system.

You bring up some interesting points, amigo!

[Axe]

Jokic is great but with a championship on the line MJ is certainly the guy I'd want with the ball in any era. Proved it too many times
He's the very same guy who defeated an 8th-seeded wolves team otw to last year's finals.

[imdaman99]

Similarly on his way like Mahomes is, he can one day become goat. Mahomes is further along as I think he should get there. Jokic still has a lot more to go, but he could do it.

[Carbine]

Jokic has no chance at GOAT.

Literally zero. If nobody is speaking about you being GOAT
at almost 30 years of age, it's not going to happen afterwards.

As much of a hot take era we are in, I've never seen "Is Jokic on pace to be the GOAT" pop up as a debate show topic.

[FultzNationRISE]

Jokic did not play well for him in the WCF against the Lakers a few years back. He also got swept the next year while not particularly playing well either.

He doesn't have the continued dominance of Jordan in the playoffs where he did it over and over again.

Jokic has one all time great playoff run. Jordan has several.

In the playoffs, it's much more about individual greatness than it is "team offense"


You mean when he was 25?

I reckon it’s only fair to compare Jokic’s conference finals performance at 25 yrs old to MJ’s conference finals performance at 25.

Can we do that?

[elementally morale]

Jokic is different because you really don't know what he is going to do next. You give him the ball but not because of a deadly go to move that is about to happen -- you don't know what's going to happen and it makes all the more entertaining. A basketball play is just being born on the spot. That's something refreshing.

It makes no sense imagining him in 1986 or Jordan in 2024. All players have to be great in their own era and they would not be the same players in a much different environment. If Jokic plays the same way 40 years ago he is not likely to have the same amount of success. But why would he do that? An MJ in 2024 is a very good 3 point shooter. Etc. I wouldn't say Jokic is a better offensive player but to me he is a more entertaining one because something unexpected is happening most of the time. And he doesn't need to win 'back then'. He is playing now. He is very unlikely to win 5 more rings in today's environment. And he will never be as much of a global icon as Jordan. Different times. I'd rather watch a Jokic led offense but I also enjoyed Magic and Bird more than I did Jordan. Better? I don't care as long as it is entertaining.

[FultzNationRISE]

Uh oh guys, he brought out that the stats.

"Usage rate! Efficiency!"

.....


Jokic is nowhere near the bucket getter that Jordan is. He's really good and can score in a lot of ways but he's also lumbering and slow. Sometimes it's enough and sometimes it isn't. We saw how much he had to lean on Murray in the playoffs and in the finals. He doesn't win without that two man game.


MJ was 1-9 without Pippen.

[8Ball]

Jokic has no chance at GOAT.

Literally zero. If nobody is speaking about you being GOAT
at almost 30 years of age, it's not going to happen afterwards.

As much of a hot take era we are in, I've never seen "Is Jokic on pace to be the GOAT" pop up as a debate show topic.

Jokic is about to win 3 MVPs in 4 years and is the undisputed best player in the league today. If he keeps this up for another 5 years he is in the discussion.

The only reason he isn't higher up the ladder is because he didn't take his age 21-25 conditioning seriously.


There is ZERO dispute that peak Jokic has just as much of an offensive impact, if not more, than Peak Jordan or Peak LeBron.

[NBAGOAT]

Jokic has no chance at GOAT.

Literally zero. If nobody is speaking about you being GOAT
at almost 30 years of age, it's not going to happen afterwards.

As much of a hot take era we are in, I've never seen "Is Jokic on pace to be the GOAT" pop up as a debate show topic.

thats because of defense however. Jokic has gotten some greatest offensive player of all time discussion. murray is fantastic now and everyone knows but in 15 years we're going see jokic winning maybe multiple titles with no all stars in a league stacked with 2-3 star teams. unless he makes another leap no one looking back will think jamal was on the level of someone like kyrie even though last 2 years he has been

[NBAGOAT]

devil's advocate is curry was still arguably more impactful in his prime leading klay and dray to an elite offense even when kd was out. denver's starting lineup doesnt have a weak point offensively, kcp is the worst offensive player and he's a 40% from 3 guy. Curry doesnt have the assists but his gravity helps his teammates as much as a lot of other stars.Nuggets are only like 9th on offense this year.

However, Jokic has been dominant in the playoffs even beyond curry numbers wise

[Carbine]

thats because of defense however. Jokic has gotten some greatest offensive player of all time discussion. murray is fantastic now and everyone knows but in 15 years we're going see jokic winning maybe multiple titles with no all stars in a league stacked with 2-3 star teams. unless he makes another leap no one looking back will think jamal was on the level of someone like kyrie even though last 2 years he has been

Who cares what people think in 15 years. We witnessed it live, revisionist history means nothing.

Murray produced one of the best #2 option playoff runs in the last two decades. If they win again, he will likely have to reproduce that type of playoff run.

That's what I will remember. Not that he didn't make an all star game. All star games have zero relevance when it comes to how well you play in the playoffs - when it matters.

[NBAGOAT]

Who cares what people think in 15 years. We witnessed it live, revisionist history means nothing.

Murray produced one of the best #2 option playoff runs in the last two decades. If they win again, he will likely have to reproduce that type of playoff run.

That's what I will remember. Not that he didn't make an all star game. All star games have zero relevance when it comes to how well you play in the playoffs - when it matters.

eh he was great but best +2 option playoff runs is revisionist too. 26ppg in 2023 was 11th among playoff guys. 58.6% was barely above league average. when pippen scored 21ppg in 1992 that was 14th. Lot of 2nd options have offered more playmaking and defense than murray too. Everyone remembers murray killing the lakers but he wasnt special in a lot of other games.

[Carbine]

Second options last 20 years:

Tony Parker '03
Rip Hamilton '04
Manu '05
Shaq '06
Parker '07
Peirce '08
Pau '09
Pau '10
Terry '11
Wade '12
Wade '13
Duncan/Kawhi '14
Klay '15
Kyrie '16
Warriors didn't have a second option. Disrespectful to say Steph was one.

Lowry '19
Disrespectful to say Lebron or AD was second option
Middleton '21
Wiggins '22

There are like 3 second option playoff runs on par with him in two decades. 6 if you want to really include Steph or Durant and LeBron or AD as second options.

He's in the upper echelon however way you want to put it.

[Carbine]

Second options last 20 years:

Tony Parker '03
Rip Hamilton '04
Manu '05
Shaq '06
Parker '07
Peirce '08
Pau '09
Pau '10
Terry '11
Wade '12
Wade '13
Duncan/Kawhi '14
Klay '15
Kyrie '16
Warriors didn't have a second option. Disrespectful to say Steph was one.

Lowry '19
Disrespectful to say Lebron or AD was second option
Middleton '21
Wiggins '22

There are like 3 second option playoff runs on par with him in two decades. 6 if you want to really include Steph or Durant and LeBron or AD as second options.

He's in the upper echelon however way you want to put it.

[elementally morale]

Murray is a fine player but not any more impactful than Manu was on those Spurs. He could make some highlights and the occasional headline but everyone knew the team was about Duncan. The Nuggets are not a duo. It's Jokic and very good teamplay. Murray is the 2nd best teammate many times, yes. But him and Jokic are not even close to equals. It's not a 2002 Kobe-Shaq situation.

If you trade Murray for a decent guard of which at least 10 exist in the league the Nuggets roll on. If you trade Jokic the team starts from scratch.

[NBAGOAT]

Second options last 20 years:

Tony Parker '03
Rip Hamilton '04
Manu '05
Shaq '06
Parker '07
Peirce '08
Pau '09
Pau '10
Terry '11
Wade '12
Wade '13
Duncan/Kawhi '14
Klay '15
Kyrie '16
Warriors didn't have a second option. Disrespectful to say Steph was one.

Lowry '19
Disrespectful to say Lebron or AD was second option
Middleton '21
Wiggins '22

There are like 3 second option playoff runs on par with him in two decades. 6 if you want to really include Steph or Durant and LeBron or AD as second options.

He's in the upper echelon however way you want to put it.

top 5 is fair for murrays run. I thought you calling it one of the best means it was clearly top 3 however and of that list I dont think it is. It's unfair to count steph/kd or lebron/ad as 2nd option but for this discussion you have to

[Carbine]

Murray is a fine player but not any more impactful than Manu was on those Spurs. He could make some highlights and the occasional headline but everyone knew the team was about Duncan. The Nuggets are not a duo. It's Jokic and very good teamplay. Murray is the 2nd best teammate many times, yes. But him and Jokic are not even close to equals. It's not a 2002 Kobe-Shaq situation.

If you trade Murray for a decent guard of which at least 10 exist in the league the Nuggets roll on. If you trade Jokic the team starts from scratch.

You don't know that their are ten others. Nobody knows that. Murray is a fine defender too, definitely above guys like him in the offensive department like Dame, Young or Mitchell.

They're clearly a duo. He outplayed Jokic last year in the Laker series, he was the one making all the momentum shifting shots and win probability added type plays. Jokic was excellent too but how many guys can outplay a Jokic at his absolute peak in a playoff series?

He did that as a teammate. Murray was playing spectacular ball.

[elementally morale]

You don't know that their are ten others. Nobody knows that. Murray is a fine defender too, definitely above guys like him in the offensive department like Dame, Young or Mitchell.

They're clearly a duo. He outplayed Jokic last year in the Laker series, he was the one making all the momentum shifting shots and win probability added type plays. Jokic was excellent too but how many guys can outplay a Jokic at his absolute peak in a playoff series?

He did that as a teammate. Murray was playing spectacular ball.


I do think you have a Duncan-related agenda going on here but I'm fine with it. Not everyone has to believe Jokic is an all-time great. Murray did not outplay Jokic in any series. He was an essential piece. Without him playing at the level he did it's not a sweep. However, coverage on Murray is not as tight as it could be because you have to be aware of the bigger threat that is Jokic. You keep the ball out of the Joker's hands and you will live with the result. It's more like when Kris Middleton had those huge games next to Giannis.

Murray definitely deserves praise and in the playoffs he plays like an all star. Having good teammates won't diminish Jokic as the clear cut best though. If you take a look at all the Nuggets players' numbers with the Joker on and off the floor you will find that each and every one of those players have their numbers up with Jokic playing. On the one hand it's the constant great decisions and passing and on the other the focus of the defense.

Anyway, I liked Duncan for mostly the same reasons I like Jokic. The latter is more entertaining to me but the attitude they play with is pretty much the same. And I usually don't like comparing players from different eras. Bringing Murray to the equation makes as little sense as talking about Duncan and attribute his greatness to some other (actually, very good) players. He played with Robinson, Parker, Manu and Kawhi. Does it take away anything from Duncan? Not in my mind.

[Carbine]

https://youtu.be/PLDMczQ9TK0?si=G0NCNgFohiFK1guj

Murray was hitting some incredibly tough shots that had nothing to do with Jokic.

Just look at the first play. It's a down screen into a simple hand off from Jokic. Rudy Gobert can do that.

Murray was putting on a scoring display of all levels that series.

The only reason I brought up Murray was because someone said in 15 years it would only be seen that Jokic won without an all star. That's incredibly disingenuous of the type of playoff run Murray had, which is not hating just a fact.

[dankok8]

Jokic is an absolute genius. His biggest talent apart from rubbery soft hands that he uses to make ridiculous shots is his computer brain. Man will literally stop time and make a play. Nobody on the court including the defense knows what he's going to do... and neither does he until a split second before. The way he reads the game and more importantly the speed at which he processes it may be the greatest ever seen in basketball.

[Micku]

Definitely one of the best that I ever seen. Dude's amazing. He leads the lead in touches, but he is like 38th in terms of time of possession. He doesn't hold the ball that much. The way he reads the defense is crazy too. He usually makes the right play to get good looks. He is one of the best passers ever. I think his offense is definitely in that GOAT status. Arguably the best floor-raiser ever offensively. It's pretty remarkable. You don't know if he is going to pass or score. And Jokic seems like he could score more but he doesn't. He would gladly take like 7 shots and just pass, and still be the best player on the floor due to him controlling the offense and flow. And there are some little things like his screens. He is one of the best screeners too. He could do a pick-and-pop or roll. Both are efficient.

He has been the most efficient post-up player for like 4 straight years considering the volume. 1.12 PPP this year, on 60%. He is shooting 58% from mid-range. His 3pt shooting is streaky, but he could make it.

You don't what's coming because he could attack you in so many different ways.

This 4-year stretch is one of the bests ever in terms of lvl of play. It's right there with MJ and LeBron imo. He's that good to me rn.

[bullettooth]

MJ was 1-9 without Pippen.

God damn you're a loser.

https://i2.wp.com/www.cbvinylrecordart.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/phonograph.gif

[Baller234]

Jokic is about to win 3 MVPs in 4 years and is the undisputed best player in the league today. If he keeps this up for another 5 years he is in the discussion.

The only reason he isn't higher up the ladder is because he didn't take his age 21-25 conditioning seriously.


There is ZERO dispute that peak Jokic has just as much of an offensive impact, if not more, than Peak Jordan or Peak LeBron.



Then why not have this discussion in 5 years?

https://media4.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952pc0efdteb4mv99m1xpjmr9uq88gy qgobkw13rv3v&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


Can the guy actually WIN multiple championships before we equate his dominance with those who have???

[warriorfan]

You mean when he was 25?

I reckon it’s only fair to compare Jokic’s conference finals performance at 25 yrs old to MJ’s conference finals performance at 25.

Can we do that?

If you are trying to mitigate performances based on age… (age 25 isn’t exactly young in the nba)

I guess Lebron’s 2012 chip gets mitigated considering KD and Russ were 22 and 23 years old.


Keep it consistent or lose your credibility.

[Xiao Yao You]

He's the very same guy who defeated an 8th-seeded wolves team otw to last year's finals.

and what does that have to do with what I posted? Nothing of course. If you can't say anything constructive try just shutting the **** up for a change

[Axe]

Boiling. :roll:

[Xiao Yao You]

Boiling. :roll:

:facepalm

[Mask the Embiid]

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif