How good do you think Chet's talent is?

[Im Still Ballin]

Let's ignore Wemby and the Rookie of the Year discussion for a moment and talk about Chet's talent. I think we've been so in awe of Victor that Holmgren is being slept on a little. He'd be getting far greater praise in any other season. Or would he? I don't know. What do you think?

How good do you think he is? Is he a generational talent? Someone who has the potential to be a HOFer? A future MVP-level candidate? An All-NBA caliber guy?

I don't think he's going to win an MVP playing with Shai and Jalen. Circumstance plays a huge factor. Kind of like how McHale and Kobe weren't going to while playing with Bird and Shaq in their primes. The highest they did finish were fourth ('87) and third ('03) respectively.

But that doesn't mean he's not an "MVP" kind of talent. Because I think he is. He has such a complete, two-way game already that it's hard to find faults. I guess his slender frame but even that hasn't held him back as some thought it would. But I have no doubts he'll improve when he adds another 15-20 pounds.

This is how I look at it: if Wemby is the Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett-level guy, then Chet to me is Dirk in comparison. And I don't mean that stylistically; rather, just how generally good his talent is comparatively speaking.

Does that make sense to you? I keep hearing that you can't compare Victor and Chet because Wembanyama is in another league. On another level. But what does that mean? Are we talking LeBron vs. Carmelo? LeBron vs. Bosh? LeBron vs. Wade?

Out of those three, I think it's somewhere between Carmelo and Wade. That's how high I am on Chet. And I fear due to his circumstances, people won't give him his full due props. Like they didn't with McHale. Or to a lesser extent, Kobe - until he went at it alone and won.

[Xiao Yao You]

He's certainly better than Carmelo and probably Bosh as well

[FultzNationRISE]

Does that make sense to you? I keep hearing that you can't compare Victor and Chet because Wembanyama is in another league. On another level. But what does that mean? Are we talking LeBron vs. Carmelo? LeBron vs. Bosh? LeBron vs. Wade?

Out of those three, I think it's somewhere between Carmelo and Wade. That's how high I am on Chet. And I fear due to his circumstances, people won't give him his full due props. Like they didn't with McHale. Or to a lesser extent, Kobe.

I think you're missing the obvious comparison, Lebron vs Durant (unless you were going specifically for same draft year).

Chet to me is like Durant with a higher intangibles ceiling. Which is obviously a very high ceiling.

Lebron and Yama have physical gifts you cant find in any other humans, they are 1 of 1 type athletes. Plus they have good attitudes and IQ so their ceilings are essentially limitless. Durant and Holmgren arent the only tall guys around but they are the most talented scorers of the ones who are out there. So theyre still elite but not like, in another dimension like Lebron and *possibly* Yama some day.

The other thing to consider tho is that what made guys like Durant and Dirk so special is how unique they are in their era. Holmgren might not be that unique in the league five years from now. There may be a bunch of guys like him. That's what gives Yama the possibility of separating himself. Maybe there'll be one other Yama in like 3 or 4 years down the line or whatever, but we're not gonna see another half dozen of them in the next few years, the way we may with guys like Chet.

[RRR3]

I think you're missing the obvious comparison, Lebron vs Durant.

Chet to me is like Durant with a higher intangibles ceiling. Which is obviously a very high ceiling.

Lebron and Yama have physical gifts you cant find in any other humans, they are 1 of 1 type athletes. Plus they have good attitudes and IQ so their ceilings are essentially limitless. Durant and Holmgren arent the only tall guys around but they are the most talented scorers of the ones who are out there. So theyre still elite but not like, in another dimension like Lebron and *possibly* Yama some day.

The other thing to consider tho is that what made guys like Durant and Dirk so special is how unique they are in their era. Holmgren might not be that unique in the league five years from now. There may be a bunch of guys like him. That's what gives Yama the possibility of separating himself. Maybe there'll be one other Yama in like 3 or 4 years down the line or whatever, but we're not gonna see another half dozen of them at least in the next few years, the way we may with guys like CHet.
We probably aren't ever going to see another Wembanyama lol. Have we seen another LeBron? Another Shaq?

[FultzNationRISE]

We probably aren't ever going to see another Wembanyama lol. Have we seen another LeBron? Another Shaq?

That's what I mean. You can't say 'never' because it is POSSIBLE there's another one in a few years. But it's just as possible we may not. Whereas Holmgren is I think more likely at least to be the 'first of many' coming down the pipe over the next few years. Maybe not 'many' but at least more.

[Im Still Ballin]

Sure. I agree with the gist of your post. The vibe of your text message. Great prose by the way. Sharp as always.

But here's what I'm saying: we're snoozing on Chet. Or at least a lot of people are. I keep hearing all of this talk about how Chet is benefiting from his circumstance. That Victor has no help, and that his teammates are terrible. I really do think the narrative regarding circumstance is heavily in Wemby's favor; yet, for some reason, the audience thinks it's the other way around.

I have barely heard anyone say that, maybe, just maybe a big reason why OKC has improved so much is Chet. That his circumstance - being OKC - is benefitting from him. It reminds me of that quote from Jack Nicholson's character in The Departed:

"I don't want to be a product of my environment; I want my environment to be a product of me."

I hear and read way more people marking Chet down for being on a good team than I do the opposite. I hear and read way more people marking Wemby up for being on a bad team than I do the opposite. But for some reason, everyone's acting like the inverse is true. Which is strange to me.

Wemby is a better talent but if Chet was in a more ideal circumstance he could win an MVP before Victor. What if he was in Orlando instead? A dominant defense that needs an offensive centerpiece? And they're a top seed in a few years? And he gets to put up an efficient and scoringly diverse 25 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg, and 3 bpg?

You swap out Chet for Paolo and he's getting those 20+ scoring possessions per game (including shot attempts that end in free throws). And they're most likely several games better right now.

Orlando is 34-26 at the moment. Switch Banchero out for Holmgren and that's a team that would've been close to hitting 40 wins before 20 losses.

That's how high I am on his talent. But because he's on a team with other great talents, many won't fully appreciate how good he is.

[FultzNationRISE]

Well I think OKC is a good team for both reasons. They have a young group who are at the age where each year of experience makes a big difference. They would definitely be an improved team this year without Holmgren. But adding him has also been a part of that improvement. Just like if youd put Chet on San Antonio they might have a few more wins bc hes been more consistently polished from the beginning, but they dont become even a play-in team. Its still basically the same result. The team is a much bigger factor than the individual.

Youre right, Holmgren isnt in a situation where he can put up whatever shots he wants and just play for experience. He’s on a top seed team with an MVP candidate, he has to sacrifice some numbers and opportunity right now. That said, Holmgren is gonna get a chance to show everyone where he stands when the playoffs start. More people will see him and have more context for his game. Regardless of what his stats look like, if OKC is gonna succeed in the ‘yoffs Chet is gonna have to make an impact, and if that happens he’ll get his recognition.

Meanwhile Yama’s clock will start ticking pretty much after this year for people saying “he hasnt made the playoffs, he needs to make the playoffs, whens he gonna make the playoffs.” So he needs to hope the Spurs make some decent moves quick.

Basically what Im saying is, the regular season of their rookie years really doesnt mean anything for either guy. Whatever value each of them has will become apparent in time.

[Kblaze8855]

Hes obviously very good player, but like all the rest, it’s impossible to do historical comparisons based on anything but observation. I don’t know if he would be way more hyped in a different season. He wouldn’t have beat someone like Blake Griffin for a rookie of the year. And people will tell you Blake was never as good as Al Horford.

I think he’s going to be a star, but I’m not sure what shape that takes when he’s playing with an MVP, caliber guy and another guy who might well be a superstar next season. He’s in the gift and a curse situation where people will act like he’s automatically great because of things heavily influenced by his good team but his raw numbers will be worse because of that team as well.

Depends on the kinda guy he sees himself as. He doesn’t seem like an ego guy to me so he’s probably in the right place. Plus with today’s insane pace it’s easy for everybody to eat. I expect a great career. But the shape of it is going to be determined by where he falls in his teams hierarchy over the next five years. You’re only going to do so much if you’re playing with two superstars.

He he gonna be the Harden, the Russ, or the KD? The KD spot seems claimed right?

And how many can there be at once?

[iamgine]

I think Chet can be really good, but more Amare Stoudemire level good. Not Dirk good.

Wemby otoh, has legit potential to be the best of all time. Even though I don't think he will reach it.

[oldtimer28]

Let's ignore Wemby and the Rookie of the Year discussion for a moment and talk about Chet's talent. I think we've been so in awe of Victor that Holmgren is being slept on a little. He'd be getting far greater praise in any other season. Or would he? I don't know. What do you think?

How good do you think he is? Is he a generational talent? Someone who has the potential to be a HOFer? A future MVP-level candidate? An All-NBA caliber guy?

I don't think he's going to win an MVP playing with Shai and Jalen. Circumstance plays a huge factor. Kind of like how McHale and Kobe weren't going to while playing with Bird and Shaq in their primes. The highest they did finish were fourth ('87) and third ('03) respectively.

But that doesn't mean he's not an "MVP" kind of talent. Because I think he is. He has such a complete, two-way game already that it's hard to find faults. I guess his slender frame but even that hasn't held him back as some thought it would. But I have no doubts he'll improve when he adds another 15-20 pounds.

This is how I look at it: if Wemby is the Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett-level guy, then Chet to me is Dirk in comparison. And I don't mean that stylistically; rather, just how generally good his talent is comparatively speaking.

Does that make sense to you? I keep hearing that you can't compare Victor and Chet because Wembanyama is in another league. On another level. But what does that mean? Are we talking LeBron vs. Carmelo? LeBron vs. Bosh? LeBron vs. Wade?

Out of those three, I think it's somewhere between Carmelo and Wade. That's how high I am on Chet. And I fear due to his circumstances, people won't give him his full due props. Like they didn't with McHale. Or to a lesser extent, Kobe - until he went at it alone and won.

I hesitate but Bill Russell potential for game impact. He has made that much impact on winning for OKC. Watch games last year vs this year.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I hesitate but Bill Russell potential for game impact. He has made that much impact on winning for OKC. Watch games last year vs this year.

Ultra efficient 2nd option, with excellent feel for the game, and elite rim protection.


His play style works in any system and would automatically elevate any team. It's a far better style than Wemby offensively, and just as good defensively.


Imagine what 5 years in the NBA will do, he's just gonna get better as a creator while continuing to build upon his near perfect playstyle.

Wembys career will be full of hype and injuries, Chet just wins ball games and plays the right way. Gonna win several rings.

[Carbine]

Second option rings carry little to no weight

Look at Scottie, Pau, etc.

It's always going to be Shais team on OKC.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Second option rings carry little to no weight

Look at Scottie, Pau, etc.

It's always going to be Shais team on OKC.

Look at Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe, Durant/Kobe

Chet is a rookie phenom, there is absolutely no reason to assume he won't continue to get better as he gets older, stronger, and smarter on the court. His personal development will coincide with the Thunder making deep playoff runs, and there's a great chance he gets superstar recognition the likes Pau and Pippen never quite achieved.

So no, your point is invalid

[oldtimer28]

Ultra efficient 2nd option, with excellent feel for the game, and elite rim protection.


His play style works in any system and would automatically elevate any team. It's a far better style than Wemby offensively, and just as good defensively.


Imagine what 5 years in the NBA will do, he's just gonna get better as a creator while continuing to build upon his near perfect playstyle.

Wembys career will be full of hype and injuries, Chet just wins ball games and plays the right way. Gonna win several rings.

I agree but also like VW.

Injuries undermine anyone so hope both remain healthy. I still cringe when I see Chet take contact but he handles it well so far. Does look awkward so hope he is healthy.

VW is too aggressive at times. Great for playing style - if stays healthy. Just concerns me to see him taking risks when his games are meaningless.

[ImKobe]

#2 on a title team.

[Xiao Yao You]

Second option rings carry little to no weight

Look at Scottie, Pau, etc.

It's always going to be Shais team on OKC.

quite a bit of weight. Pippen is a HOFer, top 75, Dream Teamer. I don't see him as that without MJ

[Street Hunger]

Chet seems like a legit great small forward type player who happens to be the height of a very tall center

[FultzNationRISE]

He's been kind of slumping as a shooter lately so this is a sort of weird bump. But yeah of course he's gonna be a very good player in the long run.

[Trollsmasher]

OKC is probably the worst team for him to develop on individually. Their offense runs absolutely nothing for him and he serves purely as a floor spreading decoy for Shai/Dub (especially for Shai - I don't think Chet has rolled instead of popping once this season with SGA running the PNR). And that's not going to change because it's still super effective and the guards will always get to dictate who gets the ball.

It may take until this core falls apart to realize whether he is a 1a talent or not (though the small sample sizes of play types indicate that he is).

[Xiao Yao You]

OKC is probably the worst team for him to develop on individually. Their offense runs absolutely nothing for him and he serves purely as a decoy for Shai/Dub. And that's not going to change because it's still super effective and the guards will always get to dictate who gets the ball.

It may take until this core falls apart to realize whether he is a 1a talent or not (though the small sample sizes of play types indicate that he is).

that's the way of the league unfortunately. Seeing it again in Utah with George. I'm a lot more excited about their other two rookies than yet another ball dominant guard

[Trollsmasher]

Coach has been reading my posts. Actual flash cut to start the game:biggums:, featured heavily as a roller instead of just popping endlessly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyRbX7oEFi4&ab_channel=ZHHighlights

[tpols]

Coach has been reading my posts. Actual flash cut to start the game:biggums:, featured heavily as a roller instead of just popping endlessly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyRbX7oEFi4&ab_channel=ZHHighlights

Man he was dunking all over them. I didn't realize he was this athletic. @1:35 was filthy.

:wtf:

White Durant with better defense is his ceiling.

[Carbine]

You gotta stop the Durant comparisons. He ain't like that in his offensive game.

Like I said before, Durant with DPOY type defense is literally the GOAT basketball player. Just stop that shit. It's ****ing ridiculous

[tpols]

Shut your bitch ass up boy.

He literally has the same exact body build as Durant, same perimeter shooting skill, and same type of smooth gliding athleticism.

[FultzNationRISE]

You gotta stop the Durant comparisons. He ain't like that in his offensive game.

Like I said before, Durant with DPOY type defense is literally the GOAT basketball player. Just stop that shit. It's ****ing ridiculous

:biggums:

Umm, peak Lebron was a better offensive player than Durant (TEAM offensive player, not iso scorer) and actually WAS a dpoy level defender.

Da fuq is u talkin bout my dude.

[FultzNationRISE]

He's been kind of slumping as a shooter lately so this is a sort of weird bump. But yeah of course he's gonna be a very good player in the long run.

Also looks like I jinxed him out of his slump with this post. Hurray!

[John8204]

I think he's basically a top twenty player...I can see him making 3-5 All-Star appearances, maybe All-NBA but PF is a tough category moving forward.

His ceiling to me is between Chris Webber and Bam Adebayo with his floor being between Ben Simmons and Kristaps Porzingis

[999Guy]

I think he's basically a top twenty player...I can see him making 3-5 All-Star appearances, maybe All-NBA but PF is a tough category moving forward.

His ceiling to me is between Chris Webber and Bam Adebayo with his floor being between Ben Simmons and Kristaps Porzingis

What the hell does Bam Adebayo even do better than Chet right now?

And Chris Webber? Lol. Why Ben Simmons in this comparison?

Let me tell you something, Kristaps Porzingis this year is better than every name you just mentioned. Including Chet. Chet being at his level as a floor is just....this post sickens me with how terrible it was. But if you have a point ot make to make this make a little more sense I'm open to it..

[John8204]

What the hell does Bam Adebayo even do better than Chet right now?

And W? Lol. Why Ben Simmons in this comparison?

Let me tell you something, Kristaps Porzingis this year is better than every name you just mentioned. Including Chet. Chet being at his level as a floor is just....this post sickens me with how terrible it was. But if you have a point ot make to make this make a little more sense I'm open to it..

He's doing a great job as the fourth or fifth best player on a great team. But he's never going to be an all-star again. Simmons is a three time all-star who made all-NBA once....something Kristops will never do. I think Chet at worse will make All-NBA atleast once.

As for Bam 3 title runs with 3 all-star appearances and leadership of a perennial team he's a MAX contract guy.

Webber on the other hand had an MVP run was all-NBA five times (along five all-star appearances)

All five are PF/C's from roughly the same era who rank highly but not to highly

1. Webber
2. Bam
3. Simmons
4. Kristafs

[ShawkFactory]

Man he was dunking all over them. I didn't realize he was this athletic. @1:35 was filthy.

:wtf:

White Durant with better defense is his ceiling.

So like…one of the 10-15 best players ever?

Pretty lofty ceiling there.

[ShawkFactory]

He's doing a great job as the fourth or fifth best player on a great team. But he's never going to be an all-star again. Simmons is a three time all-star who made all-NBA once....something Kristops will never do. I think Chet at worse will make All-NBA atleast once.

As for Bam 3 title runs with 3 all-star appearances and leadership of a perennial team he's a MAX contract guy.

Webber on the other hand had an MVP run was all-NBA five times (along five all-star appearances)

All five are PF/C's from roughly the same era who rank highly but not to highly

1. Webber
2. Bam
3. Simmons
4. Kristafs

You really think Porzingis is the 4th or 5th best player on the team?

[brownmamba00]

He got killed by Giannis today

[Jasper]

He got killed by Giannis today

watching the game , t reminded me of a 2 on 2 game I played when I was 40 and the other team were 20.
Bucks played like men... Oak played like boys.

[Carbine]

So like…one of the 10-15 best players ever?

Pretty lofty ceiling there.

Durant's one of the top 15 players ever after he retires and it's almost entirely based on his offense.

He has never made an all NBA defensive team in his career and besides the Warriors years he hasn't really locked in on that side of the ball consistently.

You add DPOY level defense to the Durant total package and it's one of those guys who is on the short list of two players for best ever. It's pretty inarguable that if Durant had Chet's level of defense for his entire career he would be viewed much differently.

[iamgine]

So like…one of the 10-15 best players ever?

Pretty lofty ceiling there.

Ceilings are always lofty.

Brandon Ingram used to have Durant ceiling too.

[FultzNationRISE]

So likeÂ…one of the 10-15 best players ever?

Pretty lofty ceiling there.


I think you guys are misinterpreting each other.

Durant's scoring ability was elite and uncommon in 2012. That year, when Durant made his first finals, the league took an average of 18 threes per game and scored 96 points per game. Which is what made his scoring special. Today it takes 35 per game and scores 114.

If you add elite defense to 2012 KD, then you have an extraordinary player.

But there are a lot of guys now who score now the way Durant did then. His career average is 27 ppg. This season there are 12 players doing at least that (if you round up from 26.5). And that doesnt include Lebron or Jokic, who easily could if they tried.

Durant's game was special in Durant's day. It isnt as special anymore. So Chet duplicating that plus adding defense doesnt mean he's gonna be a GOAT.

It just means... his offensive ceiling is to be as good at scoring as KD was, and he's also a better defender.

And all of that is true.

The floor on greatness is just higher now.

[ShawkFactory]

I think you guys are misinterpreting each other.

Durant's scoring ability was elite and uncommon in 2012. That year, when Durant made his first finals, the league took an average of 18 threes per game and scored 96 points per game. Which is what made his numbers impressive. Today it takes 35 per game and scores 114.

If you add elite defense to 2012 KD, then you have an extraordinary player.

But there are a lot of guys now who score now the way Durant did then. His career average is 27 ppg. This season there are 9 players doing at least that. And that list doesnt include Curry, Lebron, or Jokic, who easily could if they tried.

Durant's game was special in Durant's day. It isnt as special anymore. So Chet duplicating that plus adding defense doesnt mean he's gonna be a GOAT.

It just means... his offensive ceiling is to be as good at scoring as KD was, and he's also a better defender.

And all of that is true.

The floor on greatness is just higher now.

Okay..sure.

Even IF that were true, Chet doesn’t have close to the ability that Durant had from a handle/shooting perspective. He’s never shown anything remotely on that level in that area.

[FultzNationRISE]

Okay..sure.

Even IF that were true, Chet doesn’t have close to the ability that Durant had from a handle/shooting perspective. He’s never shown anything remotely on that level in that area.

I would disagree about the handle, I dont think Durant has any meaningful separation there, or at least not any that matters much. He's neither an exceptional playmaker nor finisher in the paint. I guess he's good at getting to his midrange spot off the dribble. But Chet can offset that by being a better finisher at the rim, which he is.

And sure Chet is not the shooter right now that prime KD became.

But heres the thing.

Rookie Chet: 54% FG, 39% 3PA.


Rookie KD? 43% and 29%.

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYnVxYXF6MGo5cHp0NmVlaGY0M25xNW1 4OXBkZjhwcGk4NHUyMmdsMCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/p4cqQ0gUIMcU0/giphy.gif

[FultzNationRISE]

Also if you watch Chet, his bag is MUCH deeper than Durant's.

KD is really a guy who mainly relies on getting into his shooting rhythm and then just being unstoppable. That's really all he does. Which is great, but it's fairly one dimensional.

Look at Chet's highlights from just this season so far and you'll see post moves, behind the back passes in transition, alley oop finishes, crafty ball fakes and all that.

He has a much more all around game than KD. If he becomes the shooter that prime KD was - which is definitely within the realm of possibility considering he clearly has range and touch - he's just gonna be the better player. I dont see what would stop him besides injury.

[Carbine]

They don't even resemble each other from the way they play. That's what you're missing. Chet isn't coming off pin downs 20 times a game. He's not running pick and roll as the main ball handler. He's not going 1 4 flat like Durant on a consistent basis.

They are both tall and lanky with high level shooting ability. That's where the comparison stops.

Durant the previous two years was doing 30 a game on damn near 70 TS. He was doing that at age 33 and 34 off Achilles, what do you think a younger Durant would be doing in this league?

Chet ain't like that. He ain't coming into Steph Currys team and taking the lead role away from him.

[Carbine]

We in here talkin bout a soon to be 22 year old averaging 17 a game projecting him to be the best pure scorer of his era.

Think about how wild that is.

[iamgine]

We in here talkin bout a soon to be 22 year old averaging 17 a game projecting him to be the best pure scorer of his era.

Think about how wild that is.

Nobody's projecting that tho.

[FultzNationRISE]

They don't even resemble each other from the way they play. That's what you're missing. Chet isn't coming off pin downs 20 times a game. He's not running pick and roll as the main ball handler. He's not going 1 4 flat like Durant on a consistent basis.

They are both tall and lanky with high level shooting ability. That's where the comparison stops.



Youre right, it’s not a perfect playstyle comparison. Chet doesnt do the same things off-ball that KD does, and KD doesnt clean up around the basket like Holmgren. The comparison is mainly about the combination of length and mobility with shooting they can provide on the perimeter.

Still I dont see any reason Holmgren wont be scoring 27 ppg by the time he’s 25. He’s 21 right now.

[tpols]

watching the game , t reminded me of a 2 on 2 game I played when I was 40 and the other team were 20.
Bucks played like men... Oak played like boys.

It's kinda unfair to compare somebody whose almost still a teenager to a 30 year old man. Giannis was a stick figure back then too and I bet Chet will be much stronger in a decade. With the key difference being he can score without offensive fouling and traveling and palming because he's actually skilled.

OKC is a paper tiger this year due to their youth though ill give you that.

[Jasper]

It's kinda unfair to compare somebody whose almost still a teenager to a 30 year old man. Giannis was a stick figure back then too and I bet Chet will be much stronger in a decade. With the key difference being he can score without offensive fouling and traveling and palming because he's actually skilled.

OKC is a paper tiger this year due to their youth though ill give you that.

chet doesn't have the drive as giannis.

Chet pushed around like a whimp last night.
Lopez had him most of the night and played soft on him...
Chet zero stat line equals = I will watch these pro's from the floor look.

[John8204]

You really think Porzingis is the 4th or 5th best player on the team?

White's played every game this season correct? So yeah I would go Tatum than Brown than White then Porzingas

[3ba11]

He's already reached peak prime Pippen-caliber performance

[FultzNationRISE]

White's played every game this season correct? So yeah I would go Tatum than Brown than White then Porzingas


This is one of those cases where it’s okay to say there is no clear chronological ranking.

I mean if you do think it is concrete and clear, the separation from one guy to the next thats fine. But I believe you could make arguments for and against all of these guys as being the most important or least important guy.

The reality is theres no meaningful way to prove any order. One might be better in some situations and the other better in another. And they all need each other to succeed. It’s okay to say “theyre all important, theyre all at about the same level.” We dont have to always fall into the trap of forcing arbitrary rankings. “This guy is the batman, and this guy is the robin, this guy is third fiddle, that guy is fourth option.”

Teams can have multiple players of roughly equal value. We dont have to always separate them and assign a pecking order.

This has become an obsession in the sports world and fascinating how ingrained the urge to do it is.

[John8204]

This is one of those cases where it’s okay to say there is no clear chronological ranking.

I mean if you do think it is concrete and clear, the separation from one guy to the next thats fine. But I believe you could make arguments for and against all of these guys as being the most important or least important guy.

The reality is theres no meaningful way to prove any order. One might be better in some situations and the other better in another. And they all need each other to succeed. It’s okay to say “theyre all important, theyre all at about the same level.” We dont have to always fall into the trap of forcing arbitrary rankings. “This guy is the batman, and this guy is the robin, this guy is third fiddle, that guy is fourth option.”

Teams can have multiple players of roughly equal value. We dont have to always separate them and assign a pecking order.

This has become an obsession in the sports world and fascinating how ingrained the urge to do it is.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying here...but my underlying point for Porzingus he's never going be an All-Star or All-NBA again. He can't reach that level on the Celtics...Chet on the other hand has a higher ceiling he's going to make All-Star teams in the future...he;s going to have a Hall of Fame chance and establish a legacy. He's not getting to the Bosh/Anthony/Malone/Dirk level but he's got a better shot than Porzingus...who is basically the Celtic's Iggy.

[elementally morale]

Chet ain't like that. He ain't coming into Steph Currys team and taking the lead role away from him.

The way I saw that defenses were focusing on Curry so much that it made Durant's job fairly easy in comparison with hit situation before and after his Warriors stop. Not saying Durant wasn't great but it wasn't his team. He didn't take any role away. He played his own role exceptionally well. Which is great. But in my opinion is takes nothing away from Curry. Defenses tried stopping Curry first and Durant second. Maybe I should rewatch some of the games but that's how I remember them.

[Carbine]

The way I saw that defenses were focusing on Curry so much that it made Durant's job fairly easy in comparison with hit situation before and after his Warriors stop. Not saying Durant wasn't great but it wasn't his team. He didn't take any role away. He played his own role exceptionally well. Which is great. But in my opinion is takes nothing away from Curry. Defenses tried stopping Curry first and Durant second. Maybe I should rewatch some of the games but that's how I remember them.

https://youtu.be/XE-BFmWb9f8?si=nbTDKzviCxMzH0Mk

Obviously playing with Curry (and Klay) will help any player. You are likely to pay a heavy price of you help off them.

However, a lot of KDs points aren't because of Curry. There are examples in the playoffs (which is what this video is) where Curry has both hands on his knees bent over in the corner just watching Kevin.

Kevin was dominant because he was just that good. He wasn't playing with a bunch of non shooters anymore, you have to remember he played heavy minutes with Westbrook and Andre Robertson. His scoring efficiency was going to go up regardless of where he went because that was likely the worst shooting supporting cast around a star player on a contender.

Anyways just watch how Kevin scores with the Warriors. He scored because he's Kevin Durant, at his peak.

[elementally morale]

https://youtu.be/XE-BFmWb9f8?si=nbTDKzviCxMzH0Mk

Obviously playing with Curry (and Klay) will help any player. You are likely to pay a heavy price of you help off them.

However, a lot of KDs points aren't because of Curry. There are examples in the playoffs (which is what this video is) where Curry has both hands on his knees bent over in the corner just watching Kevin.

Kevin was dominant because he was just that good. He wasn't playing with a bunch of non shooters anymore, you have to remember he played heavy minutes with Westbrook and Andre Robertson. His scoring efficiency was going to go up regardless of where he went because that was likely the worst shooting supporting cast around a star player on a contender.

Anyways just watch how Kevin scores with the Warriors. He scored because he's Kevin Durant, at his peak.

I don't doubt anything you are saying here. Durant was a top player then. All I'm saying is he never 'took the team' from Curry. There was also no need to. The Warriors were really close to winning the year before Durant arrived. It took a Draymond suspension and some really heroic play from James and Irving to close out that series. Had they played again and again without Durant Golden State would've had chances at another title. Did Durant help? Absolutely. Was he playing well? He played great. But I never saw him 'taking the team'. The term superteam is used way too often but if anything that team was a superteam led by Curry and Durant. Curry caused the defense to collapse and Durant capitalized many many times. And the opposite happened too. All I was arguing is that it is an exaggeration to say Durant became the top dog. And his personality is not really like that anyway. He is someone whose feelings are often hurt due to not getting his 'proper recognition' or at least what he thinks he deserves -- but he rarely does anything about it on the court. He tells us afterwards. It doesn't make him a worse player. But he isn't the leader type capable of taking or even want to take a team from someone else.

[Carbine]

When you have 2 guards/perimeter oriented players and one comes into another's team and leads the team in scoring two playoffs in a row, wins FMVP both times and is the 'go to' guy when the team is in high leverage situations more times than not, what else can that be described as?

That's part of Stephs greatness. He doesn't care about it. Neither should we. Curry and Durant are possibly the easiest perimeter players to play with of all time in terms of surrounding him with other great players. It's why the transition was so seamless so quickly with those teams.

But someone had to be #1... And it was Durant.

[tpols]

I don't doubt anything you are saying here. Durant was a top player then. All I'm saying is he never 'took the team' from Curry. There was also no need to. The Warriors were really close to winning the year before Durant arrived. It took a Draymond suspension and some really heroic play from James and Irving to close out that series. Had they played again and again without Durant Golden State would've had chances at another title. Did Durant help? Absolutely. Was he playing well? He played great. But I never saw him 'taking the team'. The term superteam is used way too often but if anything that team was a superteam led by Curry and Durant. Curry caused the defense to collapse and Durant capitalized many many times. And the opposite happened too. All I was arguing is that it is an exaggeration to say Durant became the top dog. And his personality is not really like that anyway. He is someone whose feelings are often hurt due to not getting his 'proper recognition' or at least what he thinks he deserves -- but he rarely does anything about it on the court. He tells us afterwards. It doesn't make him a worse player. But he isn't the leader type capable of taking or even want to take a team from someone else.

Nah you're spot on with it. Teams would literally blitz Curry and either leave KD open or in total single coverage. It was actually wild they would let KD get open midrange shots and even dunks to prevent a Curry 3pt avalanche. That's what made the situation so deadly. Curry never had a superstar teammate outside KD and once he had one it was Game. Over.

Durant was dumb as hell to leave Golden State. He could've been a 4-5 time champion and no matter what his rep would've jumped compared to playing for the Nets or Suns which are iso ball teams and littered with injury.

[elementally morale]

But someone had to be #1... And it was Durant.

It doesn't matter much either way but we have to agree to disagree. Curry won before and after Durant. I think Steph was the most important player on the team when they played together. You say Durant was. But leading the team in scoring is not the right argument. For example I can imagine Jason Tatum playing with Nikola Jokic and becoming the top scorer on the Nuggets while the team goes on to win a title or two. Actually I think it would be very likely to happen in this scenario. This wouldn't change who the best player is.

Doesn't really matter though. I'm not against Durant at all I just don't see him as being a true leader on the court. He is a great player capable of playing with others. But he didn't really 'take over' anywhere. Even when he was the best player I never saw him as someone willing to be 'that guy'. On another note: why should he be something he is not? He is a top 20ish player of all time. I have Curry above him. I suspect you see this the other way which I don't agree with but neither am offended by.

[Carbine]

Nah you're spot on with it. Teams would literally blitz Curry and either leave KD open or in total single coverage. It was actually wild they would let KD get open midrange shots and even dunks to prevent a Curry 3pt avalanche. That's what made the situation so deadly. Curry never had a superstar teammate outside KD and once he had one it was Game. Over.

Durant was dumb as hell to leave Golden State. He could've been a 4-5 time champion and no matter what his rep would've jumped compared to playing for the Nets or Suns which are iso ball teams and littered with injury.

You can't find three examples of all the points Durant scored in the 2017 playoffs that are like what you're describing.

I watched the video, it doesn't exist. There's 2 or 3 clips that get thrown around that are like what you're describing and simpletons or agenda driven people seem to think this was a regular occurrence - it wasn't.

The evidence is in that video. You're not interested in facts though, that is clear for the years you've been posting here. You are an agenda driven individual who trolls.

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuP6-puSfRs

[Axe]

The way I saw that defenses were focusing on Curry so much that it made Durant's job fairly easy in comparison with hit situation before and after his Warriors stop. Not saying Durant wasn't great but it wasn't his team. He didn't take any role away. He played his own role exceptionally well. Which is great. But in my opinion is takes nothing away from Curry. Defenses tried stopping Curry first and Durant second. Maybe I should rewatch some of the games but that's how I remember them.
It totally helped durant because he was a superstar talent. But if he used to be someone tiers below that, he'd just be a mere role player who can only set up multiple screens for the hottest shooter in the league.

[TMac&Luther]

2 points and fouls out.. the kid has talent, but here's the problem.. I saw it with Yao and every other stick figure giant. They have to add mass to become elite. Once they do that their feet/legs go to shit.

Everyone gets enamored with the giant, but I wouldn't draft anyone over 7'2

[ImKobe]

2 points and fouls out.. the kid has talent, but here's the problem.. I saw it with Yao and every other stick figure giant. They have to add mass to become elite. Once they do that their feet/legs go to shit.

Everyone gets enamored with the giant, but I wouldn't draft anyone over 7'2

Kareem was pretty skinny though. I guess you might not consider him in that same height category since he wasn't quite 7'2, but he weighed like 230 and had the best longevity out of all the bigs. Chet could definitely add 20-30 pounds though, I think he's barely 200 right now.

[TMac&Luther]

:oldlol: