Gen Z is really pushing the “The 90s were awful” angle lately.

[Kblaze8855]

Man you bragging about 80s Kareem being swole is a BIG lie. On some we don't believe you you need more people shit. These guys were straight up bone skinny...

And I used to get made fun of for being too thin in my youth I was 6'4 160 lbs in college and used to GET BEAT UP. By bigger dudes. Know what I did? I didn't make no excuses. I started eating more food and drinking beer like your boy Rick Mahorn and now I'm a solid 215.

I dont know exactly where im going with this but the only thing I can tell you is your toothpick era was GARBAGE!


proper trolling, requires leaning into it a bit less, and not being completely contradictory to years of your own statements.

Not as good at this as you should be after all these years. You have to play it a bit dry. Can’t be like the guy in the video because we can’t actually hear your voice. The over-the-top thing makes it clear what you’re doing. Tighten it up.

[tpols]

proper trolling, requires leaning into it a bit less, and not being completely contradictory to years of your own statements.

Not as good at this as you should be after all these years. You have to play it a bit dry. Can’t be like the guy in the video because we can’t actually hear your voice. The over-the-top thing makes it clear what you’re doing. Tighten it up.

Alright you got me bro. I'm gonna tighten up and keep it real from now on. But before I do that I want you to explain to me something about Bill Cartwrights shot form @ :50 seconds in this video.


https://youtu.be/xGGGr1L6x9c?si=ZzTlBS5kvb7A62W9

In the words of Bill Walton that is unbelievable.

I can't even comprehend it. Have to give MJ more props for winning with dudes like this no joke.

[90sgoat]

That guy is hilarious though sitting in the dark and complaining like that.

[Kblaze8855]

I actually Made a topic recently pointing out bills shooting style, but I can’t find it right now. Only the clip I had prepared for it:



https://i.ibb.co/TwQfK2L/IMG-7711.gif



That said…he was “Awkward like Cartwright/shot ugly but my arch right” example Wayne used for a reason. He shot better from the line than Lebron. He’s a 77 percent ft shooter for his career. Bill Cartwright is a better free-throw shooter than Luka. Feels wrong. But it’s true.

[Carbine]

Cartwright was excellent role player on the best Bulls teams of their dynasty, the '91 team

[Kblaze8855]

He was brought in pretty much just to guard big centers but I’ll never let Oakley go. Jordan left like 500 career points on the table just losing his outlet passes.

[tpols]

It may have been better from the free throw line than Luka but that's the slowest release I've ever seen. I seen guys at the YMCA in their 40s with short shorts on shooting smoother quicker jumpers than that. It may be effective in slow motion but if Luka had that slow of a release forget the NBA he wouldn't even make in China! And you know that.

[Kblaze8855]

Didn’t say he’s a better shooter. But he did in fact shoot better when you just stand back and let them shoot for free. It shouldn’t be true, but it is. Free throws are one of those great mysteries in life.

The problem is obviously mental. But even players we consider mentally tough and clutch tend to make fewer free throws than one would expect. Luka shot 53% from the line the 7 game series they lost to the clippers. And he took more than anyone else in the series. Just got up there and shot like me on an off day.

They put Bill in to pinch shoot free throw s they get better no matter how ugly it is. Just one of those things.

[tpols]

And ay... I'm been watching Jordan film on some pauk flop shit and he was constantly spamming the right hand dribble. Even when he went left for a dribble he'd try finishing right. Dude was not ambidextrous.

It pains me to say it but Lebron was far more two handed in his assault. Lebron made a ton of left hand layups.

[Da_Realist]

And ay... I'm been watching Jordan film on some pauk flop shit and he was constantly spamming the right hand dribble. Even when he went left for a dribble he'd try finishing right. Dude was not ambidextrous.

It pains me to say it but Lebron was far more two handed in his assault. Lebron made a ton of left hand layups.

I don't understand why this matters. Is there some context where MJ would lose effectiveness or productivity because he didn't shoot equally well with his left hand as he did with his right? How can you stop a right handed guy from shooting right handed? He shot left when he needed to. This includes very difficult layups and short runners. I admit I have not read 18 pages of this stuff or seen any of these videos so I may not have gotten the context.

[tpols]

I don't understand why this matters. Is there some context where MJ would lose effectiveness or productivity because he didn't shoot equally well with his left hand as he did with his right? How can you stop a right handed guy from shooting right handed? He shot left when he needed to. This includes very difficult layups and short runners. I admit I have not read 18 pages of this stuff or seen any of these videos so I may not have gotten the context.

I'm just saying I feel like there was a dent in Jordan's armour. Everybody thinks he was perfect... he had weaknesses too.

[dankok8]

I think tpols is trolling lol

[eliteballer]

Women's basketball is more physical than the NBA now...sad but true.

[Phoenix]

And ay... I'm been watching Jordan film on some pauk flop shit and he was constantly spamming the right hand dribble. Even when he went left for a dribble he'd try finishing right. Dude was not ambidextrous.

It pains me to say it but Lebron was far more two handed in his assault. Lebron made a ton of left hand layups.

I would assume with as much as you post, you know that Lebron is a natural lefty. Or you're freshening up your routine with some straight-faced trolling. If so, as you were.

[SATAN]

I haven't watched a game of basketball in years

We know.

[Da_Realist]

I'm just saying I feel like there was a dent in Jordan's armour. Everybody thinks he was perfect... he had weaknesses too.

It's a dent in his armor the same way it's a dent in Steph's armor that he didn't shoot logo 3's with his left. MJ had a left. You're complaining that he wasn't ambidextrous. I'd like to see the defense that could force MJ to shoot fadeaways with his left hand because he could do everything else with his left.

[TheMan]

Like watching 80s Lakers vs Celtics... did these guys never lift? There's not a single dude with any muscular definition on either team. Even Larry look doughy and thin and he was supposedly the strongest one. That's big trash!

Lol, I saw a video recently where it said that 20 years from now, kids will be saying we done wit the 2020s trash era where a dude that could only dunk (Giannis), a fat white guy who couldn't jump (Joker) and a past his prime dude with limited bag (LeBron) dominated...BIG TRASH, WE DONE WIT THE 2020s :lol

[TheMan]

I can't wait for the dialogue on this two in 20 years based on appearance:

https://basketnews.com/image-402454-any818x650.jpg

2 fat and slow white dudes...BIG TRASH!

[1987_Lakers]

Lol, I saw a video recently where it said that 20 years from now, kids will be saying we done wit the 2020s trash era where a dude that could only dunk (Giannis), a fat white guy who couldn't jump (Joker) and a past his prime dude with limited bag (LeBron) dominated...BIG TRASH, WE DONE WIT THE 2020s :lol

Pretty sure the average player 20 years from now will be better than your average player today. Won't be too long that 80's/90's players will look like this to a fan say in 2050.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/H0foamBzrn4AAAAC/bob-cousy-crossover.gif

[tpols]

I would assume with as much as you post, you know that Lebron is a natural lefty. Or you're freshening up your routine with some straight-faced trolling. If so, as you were.

That's the point. Lebron is lefty in real life but dunks and shoots righty but he's super comfortable going either way no Dwight, no cap. Larry Bird is a natural lefty that shoots right. Kyrie is a natural lefty who shoots right. These guys have top tier ambidextrosity.

MJ didn't have it on their level. He was a dominant righty. And he was better than all of them. It's OK MJ isn't the best at everything bro. He's not a better shooter than steph or rebounder than wilt. This may come as a shock to you but he isn't better than everybody at everything. Watch the tape and I'm not even talking about the short clips here.

[tpols]

Lol, I saw a video recently where it said that 20 years from now, kids will be saying we done wit the 2020s trash era where a dude that could only dunk (Giannis), a fat white guy who couldn't jump (Joker) and a past his prime dude with limited bag (LeBron) dominated...BIG TRASH, WE DONE WIT THE 2020s :lol

No offense bro but if you're in your 40s that means you were a toddler in the 80s. So you saw about as much of that decade live as what I saw of the 90s.

[TheMan]

Pretty sure the average player 20 years from now will be better than your average player today. Won't be too long that 80's/90's players will look like this to a fan say in 2050.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/H0foamBzrn4AAAAC/bob-cousy-crossover.gif

I have my doubts. The human body has its physical limits. Maybe they stress a part of the game different in the future like the 3pter today but honestly, humans can only run so fast and jump so high. I think we already on the limits, unless players get cyborg parts or some shit :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

Pretty sure the average player 20 years from now will be better than your average player today. Won't be too long that 80's/90's players will look like this to a fan say in 2050.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/H0foamBzrn4AAAAC/bob-cousy-crossover.gif

no player today could do what he's doing there. Hand on top of the ball the whole time. Good luck!

[TheMan]

Jimmy High Roller did make a great point, kids love saying the 90s had no handles but those players were a product of their time and had to abide by the rules. Today the rules are so relaxed they might as well get rid of them, players palming, carrying, traveling, moving their pivot feet, double dribbling etc. Ain't hard to have handles when you can get away with that shit

[TheMan]

no player today could do what he's doing there. Hand on top of the ball the whole time. Good luck!

:lol

[FKAri]

no player today could do what he's doing there. Hand on top of the ball the whole time. Good luck!

When your hand is big enough to palm the ball what does it matter if it's on top or not? Since that would be imperceptible when officiating the Kawhi's and MJ's of the game, it becomes impossible to enforce. Might as well give the little(handed) guys some leeway.

The real thing to note is the number of dribbles for each step he's taking. There was a time when that was actually a thing for live dribbles. By the merger it was completely gone.

[1987_Lakers]

I have my doubts. The human body has its physical limits. Maybe they stress a part of the game different in the future like the 3pter today but honestly, humans can only run so fast and jump so high. I think we already on the limits, unless players get cyborg parts or some shit :lol

Nutrition, training techniques have come a long way, we are constantly learning new things, I can only imagine how much better it will be 20-25 years from now.

I remember reading somewhere that in the 80's/90's very few professional Olympic sprinters could run a 100 yard dash in under 10 sec. Today we see some high schoolers doing that.

[Phoenix]

MJ didn't have it on their level. He was a dominant righty. And he was better than all of them. It's OK MJ isn't the best at everything bro. He's not a better shooter than steph or rebounder than wilt. This may come as a shock to you but he isn't better than everybody at everything. Watch the tape and I'm not even talking about the short clips here.

These little 'its ok bro' snide comments are always stupid because I never made the point that MJ was the best at everything. In fact I didnt even mention MJ in that post, because what I said about Lebron was at face value and nothing to do with anyone else. So fukk all the way off with that dumb shit, for starters.

The point I was making is that Lebron being better with his left isn't exactly rocket science because that's his dominant side. But we tend to also force people to develop the ability to do things with their right as well, and clearly Lebron is gifted enough to have mastered that.

[Xiao Yao You]

When your hand is big enough to palm the ball what does it matter if it's on top or not? Since that would be imperceptible when officiating the Kawhi's and MJ's of the game, it becomes impossible to enforce. Might as well give the little(handed) guys some leeway.

The real thing to note is the number of dribbles for each step he's taking. There was a time when that was actually a thing for live dribbles. By the merger it was completely gone.

the little guys have gotten enough leeway. The league is all about ball dominant guards now

[FKAri]

the little guys have gotten enough leeway. The league is all about ball dominant guards now

You've had since 1977 to say something about it. Why wait until 2024?

[tpols]

These little 'its ok bro' snide comments are always stupid because I never made the point that MJ was the best at everything. In fact I didnt even mention MJ in that post, because what I said about Lebron was at face value and nothing to do with anyone else. So fukk all the way off with that dumb shit, for starters.

The point I was making is that Lebron being better with his left isn't exactly rocket science because that's his dominant side. But we tend to also force people to develop the ability to do things with their right as well, and clearly Lebron is gifted enough to have mastered that.

Yes Lebron is more ambidextrous than Jordan. Bird and Kyrie are too. Mainly because their left hand was their main hand in life but they practiced basketball shooting right. That's what made them more ambidextrous.

Nobodies saying they're better than MJ but you got petty and bitter when it was pointed out MJ spams his right to a way greater degree than they do. That's not my problem.

[Phoenix]

Yes Lebron is more ambidextrous than Jordan. Bird and Kyrie are too. Mainly because their left hand was their main hand in life but they practiced basketball shooting right. That's what made them more ambidextrous.

Nobodies saying they're better than MJ but you got petty and bitter when it was pointed out MJ spams his right to a way greater degree than they do. That's not my problem.

So me saying that Lebron is a natural lefty= being petty and bitter that MJ is right-dominant. Never mind that none of my posts in this thread have made any commentary whatsoever about that.

The only thing I've said about MJ in this thread is with respects to what he would average today. Absolutely nothing about his right/left. So as per your usual on-brand bullshit, creating talking points or trying to draw non-existent connections between what I said and whatever your poor comprehension took from my comments. Typical dimwitted fukkery from you.

[tpols]

So me saying that Lebron is a natural lefty= being petty and bitter that MJ is right-dominant. Never mind that none of my posts in this thread have made any commentary whatsoever about that.

The only thing I've said about MJ in this thread is with respects to what he would average today. Absolutely nothing about his right/left. So as per your usual on-brand bullshit, creating talking points or trying to draw non-existent connections between what I said and whatever your poor comprehension took from my comments. Typical dimwitted fukkery from you.

I want an apology boy.

It's like the universe set out to show I was speaking truth and yall tried to clown me for it.


https://youtu.be/YIp8bUMdZqI?si=7w230OI4T13qRF7f

What you think now big boy?

[Phoenix]

I want an apology boy.

It's like the universe set out to show I was speaking truth and yall tried to clown me for it.


https://youtu.be/YIp8bUMdZqI?si=7w230OI4T13qRF7f

What you think now big boy?

I think you're an idiot conflating unrelated things and creating arguments where there wasn't one. Kyrie's one of the greatest finishers and shot-makers ever and I've made no argument to the contrary. What does my talking points about Lebron and MJ earlier relate to the above play??

[tpols]

Don't ***** out now dude. :lol :facepalm

We were talking tiers of guys who were ambidextrous. I done TOLD you there were multiple star players who were far more ambidextrous than Jordan and had better lefts to which you scoffed at and tried to call me an idiot.

And then Kyrie... one of the guys I EXPLICITLY mentioned buries a left handed skyhook over Jokic! Of all people... to win the game.

Eat your crow son.

[Phoenix]

Don't ***** out now dude. :lol :facepalm

We were talking tiers of guys who were ambidextrous. I done TOLD you there were multiple star players who were far more ambidextrous than Jordan and had better lefts to which you scoffed at and tried to call me an idiot.

And then Kyrie... one of the guys I EXPLICITLY mentioned buries a left handed skyhook over Jokic! Of all people... to win the game.

Eat your crow son.

Who is WE you fukking moron? I have not argued with you about MJs right/left tendencies at all in this thread. Da Realist a few pages back was the one talking to you about that. I only chimed into one of your posts saying that Lebron was a natural lefty but I've otherwise made no posts in this thread arguing about ambidextrous players so literally, what the fukk are you going on about?? I don't even disagree with the premise that MJ was right-dominant, so you're even more of a clown trying to assign shit to me that I haven't even argued. If you didn't post so much daily shit to whoever gives you the time of day, you'd actually keep track of who said what to you.

[Hey Yo]

Who is WE you fukking moron? I have not argued with you about MJs right/left tendencies at all in this thread. Da Realist a few pages back was the one talking to you about that. I only chimed into one of your posts saying that Lebron was a natural lefty but I've otherwise made no posts in this thread arguing about ambidextrous players so literally, what the fukk are you going on about?? I don't even disagree with the premise that MJ was right-dominant, so you're even more of a clown trying to assign shit to me that I haven't even argued. If you didn't post so much daily shit to whoever gives you the time of day, you'd actually keep track of who said what to you.

:roll:

[kawhileonard2]

The 90's was the most powerful era. Only era where top 3 players in the league won league and or finals mvp each year.

[Soundwave]

33/8/8 is reasonable, 40 PPG would only happen if 3ball was his coach (and the team would be abysmal)

33 is on the low side, this is a higher scoring, guard centric league today with less physical defense, Jordan scored 33 or better multiple times in his career.

I also think he would take it as a challenge to not let anyone else win a scoring title so long as he was in his peak/prime, so whoever is at no.1 would be coming down.

He has the ability to do that and wouldn't need much motivation.

A team should be able to comfortably manage that level of scoring today anyway

Jordan - 36 ppg
Option 2 - 21 ppg
Option 3 - 14 ppg
Option 4 - 10 ppg
Option 5 - 9 ppg
Bench - 30 ppg

= 120 points ... that's not really absurd for today at all.

[Bawkish]

Who is WE you fukking moron? I have not argued with you about MJs right/left tendencies at all in this thread. Da Realist a few pages back was the one talking to you about that. I only chimed into one of your posts saying that Lebron was a natural lefty but I've otherwise made no posts in this thread arguing about ambidextrous players so literally, what the fukk are you going on about?? I don't even disagree with the premise that MJ was right-dominant, so you're even more of a clown trying to assign shit to me that I haven't even argued. If you didn't post so much daily shit to whoever gives you the time of day, you'd actually keep track of who said what to you.

He's like a troll who would argue that Kobe has a better left hand than MJ just because Kobe uses his left for scratching his balls

[90sgoat]

I agree with this guy, the main reason the 90s were better was because the players loved playing basketball. They wanted to play every single game for the fans.

We underestimate that a bunch of players today are into ball for the gossip on Instagram and twitter.

That's why it's the euros who dominate today, basketball is not a mainstream sport in Europe, soccer is. So a euro that plays basketbal does it for the love of the game, while the wannabe socialities go into soccer where they are just as arrogant and useless.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uvPG073tFo

[Soundwave]

I agree with this guy, the main reason the 90s were better was because the players loved playing basketball. They wanted to play every single game for the fans.

We underestimate that a bunch of players today are into ball for the gossip on Instagram and twitter.

That's why it's the euros who dominate today, basketball is not a mainstream sport in Europe, soccer is. So a euro that plays basketbal does it for the love of the game, while the wannabe socialities go into soccer where they are just as arrogant and useless.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uvPG073tFo

lol the example of the Grizzlies today taking some of the most 3s in the game while having the worst 3 point percentages at shooting the 3 kind of sums up today's brand of brain dead basketball.

These players are dumb as bricks and the coaches probably know better but are powerless to do much about it.

[90sgoat]

lol the example of the Grizzlies today taking some of the most 3s in the game while having the worst 3 point percentages at shooting the 3 kind of sums up today's brand of brain dead basketball.

These players are dumb as bricks and the coaches probably know better but are powerless to do much about it.

Yep, that really hit deep.

Imagine being trash at shooting 3s, 34.8% and thinking that because 33% * 3 = 1, then you should just keep bombing. Completely idiocy.

[SATAN]

If the Grizzlies shooting 3s is his best point than it doesn't hold a candle to the multiple 3-4 hour long, even longer, "done with the 90s" breakdowns I have seen.

Sad to see so many gen X and older millennials become the new "ok boomer" guys.

[Xiao Yao You]

Imagine being trash at shooting 3s, 34.8% and thinking that because 33% * 3 = 1, then you should just keep bombing. Completely idiocy.

The Bum keeps shooting them and he's just trying to get to 30%

[Soundwave]

This also shows the stupidity of cherry picking low lights. You can do it for any era, like this guy made the 2016 Finals (Cavs-Warriors) look like shit.

Go to 3:16 in the video for the relevant point.


https://youtu.be/U7QaLy3jYd8?si=VmiNQ49ziPIsBDbs&t=196

It's so disingenuous what a few idiots are doing to get some clicks.

[TheMan]

This also shows the stupidity of cherry picking low lights. You can do it for any era, like this guy made the 2016 Finals (Cavs-Warriors) look like shit.

Go to 3:16 in the video for the relevant point.


https://youtu.be/U7QaLy3jYd8?si=VmiNQ49ziPIsBDbs&t=196

It's so disingenuous what a few idiots are doing to get some clicks.

We done wit da 2016 Finals, BIG TRASH!!! :lol

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan stans had this coming for all the slandering of the modern era. We did this same thing to the 60a and 70s to argue Mjs greatness in the 90s. Then again to the 2000's, the 10s and now. Apparently the only window of good basketball the NBA has ever seen lasted from 85--98, strange coincidence. Also I can't understand the uproar about Mjs left hand when the literal "Jordan Rules" we glorify so much were based on sending him left lol.


“Push him left! That's your Jordan rule right there, That's all I'm allowed to give away.”


"Jordan was a reluctant passer," Thomas said. "He didn't like to pass. He was the first volume shooter. He wasn't like, now you see kids that got great handles and all that, he didn't, he didn't have great handles. Couldn't go left, and if he went left more than two-three times, he had to pick it up.

"So, the rules were very simple - left side of the floor, send him left. Right side of the floor, send him left. In the middle, send him left. Now, when he's going left, we wanted the trap to be visible. So, I'm going left, and the first person that he sees now, is running at him. And you, as a defender, your job is to take away his right hand because now, as a passer, we want that ball going in the air. And if the ball goes in the air, we're quick enough to rotate and get back and match up...

[Da_Realist]

The Bad Boys, one of the best defensive teams in history, pushed MJ left yet he still averaged:

1988: 27 pts, 49% (5 games)
1989: 30 pts, 46% (6 games)
1990: 32 pts, 47% (7 games)
1991: 30 pts, 54% (4 games)

The Pistons did not push MJ left because he had no left hand. They pushed him left because if they didn't, he would have averaged 40 on them and the Bulls would have probably beaten them sooner than 1991.

In the 1988 playoffs the Pistons held Larry Bird, who once shot left for a whole game, to 20 pts on 35% over 6 games.

[sdot_thadon]

The Bad Boys, one of the best defensive teams in history, pushed MJ left yet he still averaged:

1988: 27 pts, 49% (5 games)
1989: 30 pts, 46% (6 games)
1990: 32 pts, 47% (7 games)
1991: 30 pts, 54% (4 games)

The Pistons did not push MJ left because he had no left hand. They pushed him left because if they didn't, he would have averaged 40 on them and the Bulls would have probably beaten them sooner than 1991.

In the 1988 playoffs the Pistons held Larry Bird, who once shot left for a whole game, to 20 pts on 35% over 6 games.

I beleive you, you know better than the only guys from his era to beat him like a drum. Of course he could go left, but he couldn't do as much going left apparently. Hence his weak hand, LeBron had a similar scouting report on him early too. They both developed it to the point of no longer being a weakness. Difference was Lebron was day one comfortably finishing with either hand and it was touted as an advanced skill. You guys keep trying to tune thus narrative out whenever we had Clyde Drexler, aka one of Mj's rival for best in the game looking at the ball when he dribbled amongst other things. Also in the 90s there were flashy moves that only certain guys could pull off and nowadays there's bench guys who can do double fake fadeqays and reverse layups as normal shots in their arsenal. There were literally only a handful of guys in the 90s thst had a basic level crossover, now there's tons. The game has evolved alot fellas.

[TheMan]

Jordan stans had this coming for all the slandering of the modern era. We did this same thing to the 60a and 70s to argue Mjs greatness in the 90s. Then again to the 2000's, the 10s and now. Apparently the only window of good basketball the NBA has ever seen lasted from 85--98, strange coincidence. Also I can't understand the uproar about Mjs left hand when the literal "Jordan Rules" we glorify so much were based on sending him left lol.

Pretty simple defensive concept is to force ANY righthand dominant player to his weaker hand. That's a no brainer and true for any right-handed baller. What is blatantly false is that MJ couldn't go left, he could but as all right handed players, wasn't as effective as going right but these Gen Z low IQs be pretending MJ was a total klutz going left, which is a complete lie. There is plenty of data and video out there of MJ going left and finishing or passing to an open teammate...we done with the Gen Z dumbasses, BIG TRASH!!!

[TheMan]

I beleive you, you know better than the only guys from his era to beat him like a drum. Of course he could go left, but he couldn't do as much going left apparently. Hence his weak hand, LeBron had a similar scouting report on him early too. They both developed it to the point of no longer being a weakness. Difference was Lebron was day one comfortably finishing with either hand and it was touted as an advanced skill. You guys keep trying to tune thus narrative out whenever we had Clyde Drexler, aka one of Mj's rival for best in the game looking at the ball when he dribbled amongst other things. Also in the 90s there were flashy moves that only certain guys could pull off and nowadays there's bench guys who can do double fake fadeqays and reverse layups as normal shots in their arsenal. There were literally only a handful of guys in the 90s thst had a basic level crossover, now there's tons. The game has evolved alot fellas.

Also helps that the modern player isn't called for carrying, traveling, moving their pivot foot, double dribbling, palming etc...it's easier to have more bag when the rules no longer apply :lol

[warriorfan]

The Jordan Rules were more about beating the shit out of him then just simply funneling him left.

Let’s put it this way, teams have had more success funneling Harden to go right rather than funneling Jordan left

Harden was scoring 35+ in todays nba…..but does anyone here think he’s gonna come anywhere close to averaging 30 vs the pistons?

lol

[tpols]

Pretty simple defensive concept is to force ANY righthand dominant player to his weaker hand.


The point is there are other great players who it doesn't matter if you send them to "their weak hand" because they don't have one! :lol

Send Larry or Lebron left... what happens? Same thing as if you sent them right. Jokic sent Kyrie left on Sunday. What happened? He got hit with a left handed 20 foot Kareem skyhook buzzer beater. :confusedshrug:

MJ was better than all of them but not because he was as ambidextrous. It was because he was so dominant right handed that it didn't matter.

Kinda puts the phrase "I can beat you with one hand tied behind my back" into basketball reality.

[tpols]

This is amazing.

Watch this clip @ :55 yall.


https://youtu.be/qSf5HCHdHys?si=ayl_wiegxx6EgUfL

I'm starting to realize I hated on Lebron too much.

That's a MAJOR sag. We (and I) clowned Lebron for what fat Boris Diaw did to him... meanwhile that was the STANDARD in the 80s and 90s. Waste management out the ass in those decades. They only played dudes for the post or drive! The shooting acumen was trash!

[tpols]

Fools talking about handchecking... the whole 80s and 90s defensive strategy was sag and dare to shoot. And if they drive whack them. But if they could shoot that strategy wouldn't work.

[sdot_thadon]

Pretty simple defensive concept is to force ANY righthand dominant player to his weaker hand. That's a no brainer and true for any right-handed baller. What is blatantly false is that MJ couldn't go left, he could but as all right handed players, wasn't as effective as going right but these Gen Z low IQs be pretending MJ was a total klutz going left, which is a complete lie. There is plenty of data and video out there of MJ going left and finishing or passing to an open teammate...we done with the Gen Z dumbasses, BIG TRASH!!!
And this post is it in a nutshell. It still amazes me how blind some you can be when it comes to Mike that you're unable to make or even follow a surface level analysis of Mj while being able to pick anyone else to the bone in order to prop him up. Thomas gave a brief, yet more in depth window ro his game at the time than any of you will ever dare to post about him lol. He wasn't speaking on MJ's left at all times, he was speaking on a specific situation. We all know Mj was a dribble dribble pull up or dribble dribble finish guy, that's been established for a long time. Thomas was speaking on him catching up top on plays requiring him to dribble the ball more than a couple of times to get his shot. If you could get him to dribble more than 2 or 3 times to his left he'd do something other than what he wanted to do. So yeah in comparison to the damage he'd do with his right hand it was weak. And we can play dumb but the 90s on back was loaded with one handed guys, this isn't news.



Also helps that the modern player isn't called for carrying, traveling, moving their pivot foot, double dribbling, palming etc...it's easier to have more bag when the rules no longer apply :lol
Yeah and the same applied to Mj being able to bend rules Oscar , West, Dr.J , etc. weren't able to. Yet you don't diminish anything he could do in comparison to those guys either. It's a double standard that been portrayed for a while now and that's why these kids are done with the bs lol.

[FKAri]

The Jordan Rules were more about beating the shit out of him then just simply funneling him left.

Let’s put it this way, teams have had more success funneling Harden to go right rather than funneling Jordan left

Harden was scoring 35+ in todays nba…..but does anyone here think he’s gonna come anywhere close to averaging 30 vs the pistons?

lol

https://media1.tenor.com/m/391rzvNyu-8AAAAd/james-harden-ricky-rubio.gif

We DONE with the 10's!

[Da_Realist]

https://media1.tenor.com/m/391rzvNyu-8AAAAd/james-harden-ricky-rubio.gif


The result would have been a poster on everyone's wall in the 80's/90's/00s. Harden is Mark Jackson slow.

[TheMan]

And this post is it in a nutshell. It still amazes me how blind some you can be when it comes to Mike that you're unable to make or even follow a surface level analysis of Mj while being able to pick anyone else to the bone in order to prop him up. Thomas gave a brief, yet more in depth window ro his game at the time than any of you will ever dare to post about him lol. He wasn't speaking on MJ's left at all times, he was speaking on a specific situation. We all know Mj was a dribble dribble pull up or dribble dribble finish guy, that's been established for a long time. Thomas was speaking on him catching up top on plays requiring him to dribble the ball more than a couple of times to get his shot. If you could get him to dribble more than 2 or 3 times to his left he'd do something other than what he wanted to do. So yeah in comparison to the damage he'd do with his right hand it was weak. And we can play dumb but the 90s on back was loaded with one handed guys, this isn't news.



Yeah and the same applied to Mj being able to bend rules Oscar , West, Dr.J , etc. weren't able to. Yet you don't diminish anything he could do in comparison to those guys either. It's a double standard that been portrayed for a while now and that's why these kids are done with the bs lol.
Except for the fact that I've never trashed the players that came before MJ, like MJ himself, I respect those who came before, that's why I hold Wilt, West, Big O, Russell, KAJ etc in high esteem.

[Phoenix]

https://media1.tenor.com/m/391rzvNyu-8AAAAd/james-harden-ricky-rubio.gif

We DONE with the 10's!

Remember when a few guys defending Harden back then put their hands behind their back lol? Good times...

[tpols]

The result would have been a poster on everyone's wall in the 80's/90's/00s. Harden is Mark Jackson slow.

The thing is in the 90s the defender wouldn't have been up on Harden playing his left like that.

He would've been sagged in the paint. We showed yall the tape.

[Soundwave]

Some pimple faced kid in a Wembanyama jersey 6-7 years from now:

We done with the 2010s! Done!

Look at these midgets! None of them are even 7 foot 1 tall! lol era where one of the best players was only 6 foot 3!

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1138318/lebroncrash.gif

Getting crossed by (checks notes) Gordon Haywood

https://i.imgflip.com/duzsr.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4337687/KDair.gif

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10053139/2018_01_17_17_55_35.gif

https://wp.usatodaysports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2014/01/nene.gif

[RRR3]

Soundwave is fuming :lol

Yeah, future eras will be better than this one, that's how it works as sports medicine and analytics continue to get better.

Wemby might well be the GOAT, you better get ready

[Xiao Yao You]

https://media1.tenor.com/m/391rzvNyu-8AAAAd/james-harden-ricky-rubio.gif

We DONE with the 10's!

That defense ended up being effective once they figured it out after a couple games. The Matador and Favors spotting up in the corner not so much

[Soundwave]

Soundwave is fuming :lol

Yeah, future eras will be better than this one, that's how it works as sports medicine and analytics continue to get better.

Wemby might well be the GOAT, you better get ready

Sounds like that post triggered you if anything, lol, I'm laughing about it because I know it's coming.

There will always be individual players that dominate in any era, the human body can only evolve so much, even sports themselves reach a point of diminishing returns.

Jokic doesn't really do anything that much different from a Larry Bird 35 years ago.

[FKAri]

Sounds like that post triggered you if anything, lol, I'm laughing about it because I know it's coming.

There will always be individual players that dominate in any era, the human body can only evolve so much, even sports themselves reach a point of diminishing returns.

Jokic doesn't really do anything that much different from a Larry Bird 35 years ago.

There's no physical evolution happening here. It's just the talent pool becoming larger. There's just more of those 1 in a million talents running around now due to the international influx. Not to mention the population increase in America, alone. But the top end talent doesn't change so much as the tier below that. The 10th man on today's team is absolutely better than the 10th man on yesteryear's team.

Beyond that, I agree with you and some posters are definitely being ridiculous in here.

[RRR3]

Sounds like that post triggered you if anything, lol, I'm laughing about it because I know it's coming.

There will always be individual players that dominate in any era, the human body can only evolve so much, even sports themselves reach a point of diminishing returns.

Jokic doesn't really do anything that much different from a Larry Bird 35 years ago.
How am I triggered? I already know there are going to be better players than my favorite player, you're the one who can't accept people potentially passing MJ

[SATAN]

How am I triggered? I already know there are going to be better players than my favorite player, you're the one who can't accept people potentially passing MJ

Dude really posted a few gifs as evidence that an entire decade sucked. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

It's pretty hilarious reading these posts. Old heads are fuming.

[1987_Lakers]

I beleive you, you know better than the only guys from his era to beat him like a drum. Of course he could go left, but he couldn't do as much going left apparently. Hence his weak hand, LeBron had a similar scouting report on him early too. They both developed it to the point of no longer being a weakness. Difference was Lebron was day one comfortably finishing with either hand and it was touted as an advanced skill. You guys keep trying to tune thus narrative out whenever we had Clyde Drexler, aka one of Mj's rival for best in the game looking at the ball when he dribbled amongst other things. Also in the 90s there were flashy moves that only certain guys could pull off and nowadays there's bench guys who can do double fake fadeqays and reverse layups as normal shots in their arsenal. There were literally only a handful of guys in the 90s thst had a basic level crossover, now there's tons. The game has evolved alot fellas.

I remember getting called a liar/hater a couple of years ago on here when I simply pointed out Drexler had mediocre ball-handling skills.

[Baller234]

You can't argue that defense is tougher today while also acknowledging the existence of defensive 3 seconds.

The 90's had illegal defense but that doesn't compare to defensive 3 seconds.

[sdot_thadon]

Except for the fact that I've never trashed the players that came before MJ, like MJ himself, I respect those who came before, that's why I hold Wilt, West, Big O, Russell, KAJ etc in high esteem.

Majority of Jordan stans don't and I don't think you'd hold up too well once someone made a debate with him and any of them.

[sdot_thadon]

I remember getting called a liar/hater a couple of years ago on here when I simply pointed out Drexler had mediocre ball-handling skills.

He did look at the ball enough to notice watching a game. I don't think he had much of left hand either. If someone did that nowadays these same 90s stans would tell us how skill has left the game lol.

[warriorfan]

He did look at the ball enough to notice watching a game. I don't think he had much of left hand either. If someone did that nowadays these same 90s stans would tell us how skill has left the game lol.

this seems like a bit of a straw man

I don’t see any guys who have seen a ton of nba say players today don’t got handles

It’s more of a lack of diversity of an offensive game, an absence of midrange and post play primarily.

It’s more about how the rules have changed over time which leads to a very different game

some guys here have watched the game for decades and have watched it evolve

others just have tuned in relatively recently and don’t really have a frame of reference

[HoopsNY]

There's no physical evolution happening here. It's just the talent pool becoming larger. There's just more of those 1 in a million talents running around now due to the international influx. Not to mention the population increase in America, alone. But the top end talent doesn't change so much as the tier below that. The 10th man on today's team is absolutely better than the 10th man on yesteryear's team.

Beyond that, I agree with you and some posters are definitely being ridiculous in here.

Not that I disagree with the premise of your post, but the population increase is a misconception. What matters is the rate of births. If you consider the birthrates from the 1940s-1960s, then the greatest pool relative to the US population would have actually come in the 1960s-1980s. Birthrates have been declining for decades.

[Da_Realist]

There is a difference between having a weaker side and having an exploitable weakness. Not too many people can be forced to their weaker side for four playoff series by one of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history and the guy still average 30 points on 47% shooting. It's an example of people searching the scriptures to find something to whine about.

No player is completely ambidextrous anyway. Not that it matters. There are plenty of times a guy with a great weaker hand was shut down better than the guy with a less great weaker hand. Haters are gonna hate. No one is trying to be objective. Otherwise, they'd explain why a guy with a supposedly great weaker hand has had his cheeks clapped in record fashion multiple times even though he's been allowed to choose his squad for the past 13 years.

Which is the better testimony: Force one guy to go left and he averages 30 on 47% shooting or sag off the guy and force him to average 22 on 36%? Maybe that's the weakness we need to be talking about.

[1987_Lakers]

It’s more of a lack of diversity of an offensive game, an absence of midrange and post play primarily.

Teams got smart and realized the mid-range is the worst shot you can take. Not everyone can hit from mid-range like MJ, Kobe & Dirk did.

Why take constant 20 foot shots worth 2 points when you can hit a 22-24 foot shot worth 3 points? It's simple math, old heads simply can't understand this.

[sdot_thadon]

There is a difference between having a weaker side and having an exploitable weakness. Not too many people can be forced to their weaker side for four playoff series by one of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history and the guy still average 30 points on 47% shooting. It's an example of people searching the scriptures to find something to whine about.

No player is completely ambidextrous anyway. Not that it matters. There are plenty of times a guy with a great weaker hand was shut down better than the guy with a less great weaker hand. Haters are gonna hate. No one is trying to be objective. Otherwise, they'd explain why a guy with a supposedly great weaker hand has had his cheeks clapped in record fashion multiple times even though he's been allowed to choose his squad for the past 13 years.

Which is the better testimony: Force one guy to go left and he averages 30 on 47% shooting or sag off the guy and force him to average 22 on 36%? Maybe that's the weakness we need to be talking about.

More like force a guy left for 4 series and post a 3-1 record against him. Perspective is everything. It's possible for even a guy of Jordan's stature to have flaw. I think he still did ok for himself lol.

[Xiao Yao You]

Teams got smart and realized the mid-range is the worst shot you can take. Not everyone can hit from mid-range like MJ, Kobe & Dirk did.

Why take constant 20 foot shots worth 2 points when you can hit a 22-24 foot shot worth 3 points? It's simple math, old heads simply can't understand this.

I'm an old head and understand it :facepalm

[Da_Realist]

More like force a guy left for 4 series and post a 3-1 record against him. Perspective is everything. It's possible for even a guy of Jordan's stature to have flaw. I think he still did ok for himself lol.

If pushing MJ left was the only reason the Bad Boys won, why didn't it work for the rest of the league? Maybe more context is needed.

[Soundwave]

How am I triggered? I already know there are going to be better players than my favorite player, you're the one who can't accept people potentially passing MJ

I've said this many times before on this board ... when a player who is clearly better than Jordan comes around you will know it. That player won't have to brag or advertise it either, it will be self evident.

You won't need to twist yourself into a pretzel on this little board of the outdated portion of the internet to argue about it 5000 times a day.

That player will clearly just take the throne and not have to be self appointed or get tattoos or any of the corny shit guys like LeBron have resort to.

The general public will recognize that organically, it won't have to be forced, the same way Jordan clearly overtook his peers and previous greats and the public generally accepted it.

The fact of the matter is as of today, March 2024, the general public and the majority of even basketball enthusiasts still look at Jordan as no.1. It's been 25 years since he last played for the Chicago Bulls. Maybe it'll happen in the next 5 years, I wouldn't however hold my breath. You could be a very old man before that actually happens.

[Kblaze8855]

Also in the 90s there were flashy moves that only certain guys could pull off and nowadays there's bench guys who can do double fake fadeqays and reverse layups as normal shots in their arsenal. There were literally only a handful of guys in the 90s thst had a basic level crossover, now there's tons. The game has evolved alot fellas.



this all too common belief that there were only a few stars who did great things is where most people lose credibility to me, and I just have to tune out.

I saw an argument yesterday after some Hakeem footage was put online that the 90s was 10 great players and 1000 plumbers. Nobody under 40 knowing the names of the non legends who routinely made great plays, means they didn’t exist. We really talking about reverse layups, as if children werent doing them 40 years ago?

Like Dee Brown, Robert Pack, Chris Morris, Blue Edwards and all manner of role players weren’t making spectacular plays because they aren’t remembered. Brent Berry came in like 30 years ago and if he were in the NBA right now in his rookie form, he will be exactly the kind of player people would say would say the league didn’t have 30 years ago. Spectacularly athletic flashy role player, who isn’t even that good. He would be an example of how much deeper the NBA is today With guys like him being mere role players

there have always been spectacular players and great athlete who weren’t even good. There have always been skilled players who were nobodies. And not only do we pretend they didn’t exist 30 years ago people are entirely prepared to ignore the stars as if there weren’t dozens who came and went who nobody with a brain could watch and call a plumber.

They’ll watch a clip of somebody like Kemp, and say “Yea but there were only a few players like that” when he…who they do respect….routinely goes out and has 13 and seven and foul out versus teams they would say are entirely plumbers.

if these people were asked to make their list of non-plumbers, they will probably leave out 70 players they would immediately realize we’re good if they could actually see them play. And there were hundreds more consistently playing on the level of the people they do acknowledge can play. They say the bottom 100 players are so much better when most people you talk to can’t intelligently break down the game of anybody outside the top 10. What the **** do most of these people know about the 14th best player on the Pacers now versus the 14th best player on the 93 Bullets?

Nothing. Nothing about either one. The league stop playing inside so there are a lot less bruiser types since they are no longer required. Big stiffs got replaced by shooters who can’t play enough defense to get on the floor. None of them are going to play regularly on a team that doesn’t have opponents who require it.

it would be a lot easier if people who said this type of thing ever seem to have any actual opinions about the people they say are plumbers. But they don’t. They have no information except for that they suck.

none of them are going to go watch the wild assortment of floaters and contested shots somebody like Eddie Johnson could make. But they’re absolutely sure he was garbage.

I just don’t get how anybody cares enough about basketball to have these arguments, but not enough to gather any information about the players they shit on indirectly.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/a4HeXVGJpEk?si=h7F3zWWeIHmi0Mjy


Long story short….

That guy is a plumber because you don’t know who he is?

He wasn’t a star. He was just…a good player. One of those thousand plumbers who wasn’t one of the 10 greats. Just doesn’t count? No team would want somebody taking all those contested pull-ups right now, but that doesn’t mean you can be garbage and make them all. None of the dozens and dozens of good players, who don’t have big names in history, even exist to the fans who shit on that era.

[Soundwave]

If pushing MJ left was the only reason the Bad Boys won, why didn't it work for the rest of the league? Maybe more context is needed.

Also funny how Detroit magically forgot this genius strategy in (checks notes) 1991.

"Make him go left" is such basic basketball strategy, lol, most posters here I take it never have played organized basketball in any serious way, but that's shit your 4th or 5th grade coach tells you tell as your first defensive strategy, if the player shoots right, make them go left (and vice versa). Big whoop.

Jordan was incredibly explosive going in either direction, right or left. He's simply just too *fast*, he's a freak of nature who was 5'7, had a growth spurt some how to 6'6 but retained the speed of like a Iverson-esque 5'11/6'0 player. And then throw in an explosive vertical leap on top of that and giant hands.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/ptBHMsXzHmYAAAAd/michael-jordan-ball-fakes.gif

The truth is the Pistons beat the Bulls because the rest of his supporting cast was not up to snuff and ready for prime time, Jordan was already the best player in the league probably really even by 1985. Watch the Olympic warm up games between NBA stars and the Olympic squad, Jordan was hands down the best player on the court and Magic and Isiah were playing against him.

It just took the Bulls like several years to figure their shit out and get a good team around him. If he was drafted by Portland, they probably start winning titles by 1988 or so.

[sdot_thadon]

If pushing MJ left was the only reason the Bad Boys won, why didn't it work for the rest of the league? Maybe more context is needed.

I'm sure, but more context doesn't take away the fact they based it on sending him left. Both things can be true.

[sdot_thadon]

this all too common belief that there were only a few stars who did great things is where most people lose credibility to me, and I just have to tune out.

I saw an argument yesterday after some Hakeem footage was put online that the 90s was 10 great players and 1000 plumbers. Nobody under 40 knowing the names of the non legends who routinely made great plays, means they didn’t exist. We really talking about reverse layups, as if children werent doing them 40 years ago?

Like Dee Brown, Robert Pack, Chris Morris, Blue Edwards and all manner of role players weren’t making spectacular plays because they aren’t remembered. Brent Berry came in like 30 years ago and if he were in the NBA right now in his rookie form, he will be exactly the kind of player people would say would say the league didn’t have 30 years ago. Spectacularly athletic flashy role player, who isn’t even that good. He would be an example of how much deeper the NBA is today With guys like him being mere role players

there have always been spectacular players and great athlete who weren’t even good. There have always been skilled players who were nobodies. And not only do we pretend they didn’t exist 30 years ago people are entirely prepared to ignore the stars as if there weren’t dozens who came and went who nobody with a brain could watch and call a plumber.

They’ll watch a clip of somebody like Kemp, and say “Yea but there were only a few players like that” when he…who they do respect….routinely goes out and has 13 and seven and foul out versus teams they would say are entirely plumbers.

if these people were asked to make their list of non-plumbers, they will probably leave out 70 players they would immediately realize we’re good if they could actually see them play. And there were hundreds more consistently playing on the level of the people they do acknowledge can play. They say the bottom 100 players are so much better when most people you talk to can’t intelligently break down the game of anybody outside the top 10. What the **** do most of these people know about the 14th best player on the Pacers now versus the 14th best player on the 93 Bullets?

Nothing. Nothing about either one. The league stop playing inside so there are a lot less bruiser types since they are no longer required. Big stiffs got replaced by shooters who can’t play enough defense to get on the floor. None of them are going to play regularly on a team that doesn’t have opponents who require it.

it would be a lot easier if people who said this type of thing ever seem to have any actual opinions about the people they say are plumbers. But they don’t. They have no information except for that they suck.

none of them are going to go watch the wild assortment of floaters and contested shots somebody like Eddie Johnson could make. But they’re absolutely sure he was garbage.

I just don’t get how anybody cares enough about basketball to have these arguments, but not enough to gather any information about the players they shit on indirectly.

Brent Barry's dad was Rick freaking Barry, he's definitely an exception to the rule. But I'm speaking more on the lower end of players. A guy like Marshon "who" Brooks. I cant recall a career 8ppg guy with a bag like that in the 90s and that's just one off the top of my head, but players along those lines.

[Da_Realist]

Also funny how Detroit magically forgot this genius strategy in (checks notes) 1991.

"Make him go left" is such basic basketball strategy, lol, most posters here I take it never have played organized basketball in any serious way, but that's shit your 4th or 5th grade coach tells you tell as your first defensive strategy, if the player shoots right, make them go left (and vice versa). Big whoop.

Exactly

[90sgoat]

Brent Barry's dad was Rick freaking Barry, he's definitely an exception to the rule. But I'm speaking more on the lower end of players. A guy like Marshon "who" Brooks. I cant recall a career 8ppg guy with a bag like that in the 90s and that's just one off the top of my head, but players along those lines.

Bro, I have no freaking idea who Marshon Brooks is?

People really need to understand that dribbling like is done today was simply illegal in the NBA in the 90s.

Not even a little legal, full stop, not allowed.

They called this a carry on Iverson:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps1lGZfRw6k

It was a huge debate. People took it seriously.

Now you look at that and it's like, the ****, Iverson is dribbling cleaner than 99% of players today.

Having a bag of tricks was simply not allowed in the 90s. That was for And-1.

Iverson changed it and then we got T-Mac who was probably the first superstar to routinely carry. I'm not sure when it completely changed, I guess around 2010ish.

[Carbine]

Also funny how Detroit magically forgot this genius strategy in (checks notes) 1991.

"Make him go left" is such basic basketball strategy, lol, most posters here I take it never have played organized basketball in any serious way, but that's shit your 4th or 5th grade coach tells you tell as your first defensive strategy, if the player shoots right, make them go left (and vice versa). Big whoop.

Jordan was incredibly explosive going in either direction, right or left. He's simply just too *fast*, he's a freak of nature who was 5'7, had a growth spurt some how to 6'6 but retained the speed of like a Iverson-esque 5'11/6'0 player. And then throw in an explosive vertical leap on top of that and giant hands.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/ptBHMsXzHmYAAAAd/michael-jordan-ball-fakes.gif

The truth is the Pistons beat the Bulls because the rest of his supporting cast was not up to snuff and ready for prime time, Jordan was already the best player in the league probably really even by 1985. Watch the Olympic warm up games between NBA stars and the Olympic squad, Jordan was hands down the best player on the court and Magic and Isiah were playing against him.

It just took the Bulls like several years to figure their shit out and get a good team around him. If he was drafted by Portland, they probably start winning titles by 1988 or so.

Jordan was definitely not better than Bird in '86. The earliest he was the best player was '87.

[SATAN]

https://media1.tenor.com/m/ptBHMsXzHmYAAAAd/michael-jordan-ball-fakes.gif


The arguments I've seen being made is that MJ had trouble going more than a couple dribbles with the left. That's what ex Pistons players said. The gif doesn't exactly disprove that even if it is years later than the time period mentioned. I'm sure you could do some digging and find something but I've seen quite a few examples of MJ fumbling and having to bail out of whatever he had in mind due to being forced left.

[Baller234]

I've said this many times before on this board ... when a player who is clearly better than Jordan comes around you will know it. That player won't have to brag or advertise it either, it will be self evident.

You won't need to twist yourself into a pretzel on this little board of the outdated portion of the internet to argue about it 5000 times a day.

That player will clearly just take the throne and not have to be self appointed or get tattoos or any of the corny shit guys like LeBron have resort to.

The general public will recognize that organically, it won't have to be forced, the same way Jordan clearly overtook his peers and previous greats and the public generally accepted it.

The fact of the matter is as of today, March 2024, the general public and the majority of even basketball enthusiasts still look at Jordan as no.1. It's been 25 years since he last played for the Chicago Bulls. Maybe it'll happen in the next 5 years, I wouldn't however hold my breath. You could be a very old man before that actually happens.

The kids that grew up on Bron think we're being unreasonable in our Jordan worship.

In reality he was just a once in a lifetime player:

- Athletically gifted
- Genius level IQ
- Inhuman reflexes
- Killer competitiveness
- Complete skillset
- Zero weaknesses

That last one is what they can't wrap their heads around.

[RRR3]

The kids that grew up on Bron think we're being unreasonable in our Jordan worship.

In reality he was just a once in a lifetime player:

- Athletically gifted
- Genius level IQ
- Inhuman reflexes
- Killer competitiveness
- Complete skillset
- Zero weaknesses

That last one is what they can't wrap their heads around.
Zero weaknesses but he couldn't shoot 3s :lol

[Da_Realist]

Zero weaknesses but he couldn't shoot 3s :lol

How was this exploited? We saw teams sag off LeBron and be successful. Was there any team that was successful exploiting this so called weakness against MJ? Portland tried but it didn't work.

[RRR3]

How was this exploited? We saw teams sag off LeBron and be successful. Was there any team that was successful exploiting this so called weakness against MJ? Portland tried but it didn't work.
LeBron was playing against legal zone and help defense lol. You grampas always ignore that.

[Da_Realist]

LeBron was playing against legal zone and help defense lol. You grampas always ignore that.

Deflection. Legal or not, MJ faced zones and especially help defense. Everyone knows this even you.

[RRR3]

*Mikey Mythology propaganda 101*
:biggums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWV2Fcxbw3A


Are you not aware of illegal defense? Guys like freaking Bill Cartwright could stand at the 3pt line and their man had to guard them, clearing out the floor for MJ to drive.


Senile?

[Da_Realist]

:biggums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWV2Fcxbw3A


Are you not aware of illegal defense? Guys like freaking Bill Cartwright could stand at the 3pt line and their man had to guard them, clearing out the floor for MJ to drive.


Senile?

Like I said, you know MJ faced zones, legal or not. And he faced much more defensive attention than your favorite players. Now...how was this weakness of MJ exploited?

[RRR3]

*bot malfunction*
Imagine not responding to anything I said and just parroting the same stuff :lol

Starting to suspect you're 3ball...

[Da_Realist]

Imagine not responding to anything I said and just parroting the same stuff :lol

Starting to suspect you're 3ball...

You still have not answered the question. You said MJ had a weakness. Were his opponents too stupid to figure it out?

[RRR3]

You still have not answered the question. You said MJ had a weakness. Were his opponents too stupid to figure it out?
You realize players can still win with weaknesses right? LeBron has 4 rings. Shaq couldn't shoot at all, he has 4 rings. Bill Russell wasn't a great scorer. He has 11 rings. Etc. When did MJ punish teams from 3? One game against Portland is not evidence, Manute Bol hit 6 threes once ffs.

[Da_Realist]

You realize players can still win with weaknesses right? LeBron has 4 rings. Shaq couldn't shoot at all, he has 4 rings. Bill Russell wasn't a great scorer. He has 11 rings. Etc. When did MJ punish teams from 3? One game against Portland is not evidence, Manute Bol hit 6 threes once ffs.

Teams were not going to just let a player do whatever he wanted and lose. So if this was a legitimate weakness, teams would have tried to exploit it. There would be a record of it working.

[RRR3]

Teams were not going to just let a player do whatever he wanted and lose. So if this was a legitimate weakness, teams would have tried to exploit it. There would be a record of it working.
Well obviously there is, because MJ didn't win every year :hammerhead: MJ was not being guarded from 3 in the 89 playoffs and yet he still shot a Westbrookian 28.6% and lost to the Pistons. Exploited. Btw he shot 23.5% from 3 in that series against the Pistons :yaohappy:

[Da_Realist]

Well obviously there is, because MJ didn't win every year :hammerhead: MJ was not being guarded from 3 in the 89 playoffs and yet he still shot a Westbrookian 28.6% and lost to the Pistons. Exploited. Btw he shot 23.5% from 3 in that series against the Pistons :yaohappy:

Was that the Pistons strategy? I thought their strategy was pushing him left.

[RRR3]

Was that the Pistons strategy? I thought their strategy was pushing him left.
Deflection. MJ couldn’t hit wide open 3s :(

[Da_Realist]

Deflection. MJ couldn’t hit wide open 3s :(

Not deflection. I watched that series live. MJ was guarded by half the team, two of them all time great defenders. So even though MJ averaged 30 points while shooting 46% of the field, your contention is that if he shot better from the 3 the Bulls would have won. That's news to everyone that actually watched that series because it was MJ"s driving into the lane compromising the defense that freed his teammates to contribute what they did. Him standing out there shooting threes would have been an even better blessing for the Pistons.

[RRR3]

Being able to hit wide open 3s would have made him tougher to guard, yes. I get that you old guys don’t understand modern basketball though.

[Da_Realist]

Being able to hit wide open 3s would have made him tougher to guard, yes. I get that you old guys don’t understand modern basketball though.

You keep with the name calling because that's all you got. If Detroit was trying to "exploit" this, they would have forced MJ to shoot 20 threes a game. He shot less than 3 per game. It was neither a focus of Detroit's or MJ's.

[warriorfan]

Being able to hit wide open 3s would have made him tougher to guard, yes. I get that you old guys don’t understand modern basketball though.

dude, you are some midget skinny fat zoomer who has never picked up a basketball in a day of your life. your opinion is legit garbage. keep wasting taxpayer dimes as you shit post about things you know nothing of instead of shelving books and emptying trash cans.

[Soundwave]

The arguments I've seen being made is that MJ had trouble going more than a couple dribbles with the left. That's what ex Pistons players said. The gif doesn't exactly disprove that even if it is years later than the time period mentioned. I'm sure you could do some digging and find something but I've seen quite a few examples of MJ fumbling and having to bail out of whatever he had in mind due to being forced left.

lol just stop.

Has anyone here actually even played basketball? Like outside of their drive way? Like organized actual basketball against human beings? Not NBA 2K?

This is so dumb, you can either go left or you can't, "progressively not being able to dribble left" is not a thing, and there's tons of drives of Jordan "progressively dribbling" multiple times and blowing by defenders going to his left.

[Soundwave]

Being able to hit wide open 3s would have made him tougher to guard, yes. I get that you old guys don’t understand modern basketball though.

Maybe, maybe not. We saw that player, his name was Kobe Bryant. Dominant offensive player, sure, 1 on 1 game maybe the 2nd greatest player ever. Yes his game had more range to it, but having the 3 also made his overall game more erratic and tied to a lower percentage shot.

That could go south and he could be baited into taking lower percentage shots, you couldn't really bait Jordan the same way, if one thing wasn't going he wasn't so attached to any one style of scoring that he could get taken off his game, especially as he matured as a player. He would repeatedly punish you with high percentage looks and carve teams apart in the mid-game and at the rim too, there was no getting off the hook.

[SATAN]

lol just stop.

Has anyone here actually even played basketball? Like outside of their drive way? Like organized actual basketball against human beings? Not NBA 2K?

This is so dumb, you can either go left or you can't, "progressively not being able to dribble left" is not a thing, and there's tons of drives of Jordan "progressively dribbling" multiple times and blowing by defenders going to his left.

Yes. They weren't implying he literally couldn't dribble the ball more than twice with his left hand. You know this, Altwave.

[HoopsNY]

Brent Barry's dad was Rick freaking Barry, he's definitely an exception to the rule. But I'm speaking more on the lower end of players. A guy like Marshon "who" Brooks. I cant recall a career 8ppg guy with a bag like that in the 90s and that's just one off the top of my head, but players along those lines.

Tons of guys like that. Immediately, a guy like Walt Williams comes to mind.

[Phoenix]

We done with the 20's!. Look at this James Harden sets up Kawhi for the corner 3 and then closes out on his own teammate! Big trash!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdWLS2yblFY&ab_channel=DrSwish

I feel like I lost brain cells just keeping up with this bullshit.

[Phoenix]

Apparently Mike Peek is expanding his horizons into 80's WWE. I can't wait for the video on the Red Rooster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY1hMk8e8xk&ab_channel=Peektownpodcast%22DONEWITDA80%27S%22

[Da_Realist]

Maybe, maybe not. We saw that player, his name was Kobe Bryant. Dominant offensive player, sure, 1 on 1 game maybe the 2nd greatest player ever. Yes his game had more range to it, but having the 3 also made his overall game more erratic and tied to a lower percentage shot.

That could go south and he could be baited into taking lower percentage shots, you couldn't really bait Jordan the same way, if one thing wasn't going he wasn't so attached to any one style of scoring that he could get taken off his game, especially as he matured as a player. He would repeatedly punish you with high percentage looks and carve teams apart in the mid-game and at the rim too, there was no getting off the hook.

He didn't expose a weakness. He's Monday Morning Quarterbacking 35 years later. Truth is, nowhere in Detroit's game plan did it say "Let Jordan shoot". There were plenty of things MJ couldn't do as well as some others but he had no flaws that could be exploited. Teams did the best they could and hoped he missed. That's pretty much it. There's no point working on skills that can't be isolated and exploited. Who cares if Shaq can't shoot when teams couldn't force him to shoot? That's not an exploitable weakness. Why would MJ work on logo threes when teams couldn't force him to rely on them? Guys don't need to be ambidextrous, they just need to have a strong enough weak hand or weak side that it can't be exploited. Most guys have small areas of their games that can be exploited. MJ really didn't as confirmed many times (https://fadeawayworld.net/robert-horry-reveals-top-three-greatest-players-all-time-michael-jordan-had-no-flaws-game).


"MJ is one, Kobe is two, and LeBron is three. I don't think that MJ had a flaw in his game," said Horry. "People say he couldn't shoot threes but he could shoot threes when he wanted to shoot them he just didn't need to shoot threes... Kobe is the same way. And I think LeBron is a great player. I'm not knocking LeBron, he's still 1C and Kobe's 1B and Mike is first. I know the body of work these guys put in but is there a flaw in LeBron's game? Yes. Was there a flaw in Kobe's game? Yes. Was there a flaw in Michael's game? No."

[Kblaze8855]

Brent Barry's dad was Rick freaking Barry, he's definitely an exception to the rule. But I'm speaking more on the lower end of players. A guy like Marshon "who" Brooks. I cant recall a career 8ppg guy with a bag like that in the 90s and that's just one off the top of my head, but players along those lines.


you think Rick Barry being your father gives you a “Bag”? You wouldn’t think Rick Barry himself had a bag if you watched him play. He had like three kids. The other two weren’t Brent Barry. He was just a good player. A good and spectacular player who couldn’t beat out guys you never heard of to play big minutes at the time.

Plenty of amazing guys with moves and a “bag” didn’t make it big in the 90s. God Shamgod barely made it past training camp and kids are stealing from him today Not even realizing the move is named after a person.

Having amazing handles or being a great athlete, didn’t mean you were good in the 90s any more than it does now.

[Baller234]

He didn't expose a weakness. He's Monday Morning Quarterbacking 35 years later. Truth is, nowhere in Detroit's game plan did it say "Let Jordan shoot". There were plenty of things MJ couldn't do as well as some others but he had no flaws that could be exploited. Teams did the best they could and hoped he missed. That's pretty much it. There's no point working on skills that can't be isolated and exploited. Who cares if Shaq can't shoot when teams couldn't force him to shoot? That's not an exploitable weakness. Why would MJ work on logo threes when teams couldn't force him to rely on them? Guys don't need to be ambidextrous, they just need to have a strong enough weak hand or weak side that it can't be exploited. Most guys have small areas of their games that can be exploited. MJ really didn't as confirmed many times (https://fadeawayworld.net/robert-horry-reveals-top-three-greatest-players-all-time-michael-jordan-had-no-flaws-game).

Agreed.

Jordan didn't attempt a lot of 3's because that simply wasn't the methodology of basketball at the time. It doesn't mean he couldn't shoot them. As we saw, clearly he could shoot them, it just wasn't his primary method of attack. It was something he utilized when the moment presented itself.

Also, we can see with our own eyes that there are players in today's league who don't need to the 3 ball in order to be dominant. So Jordan would be able to adapt just fine. In fact he could adapt to any era because his skill set and fundamentals were so complete. That's what makes him so great.

I would say to the younger Bron fans that if you think we are just blowing smoke up your ass and refusing to accept the truth about our false lord and savior, by all means please tell me where the lie is in this post.

[dankok8]

Before his baseball retirement from 1985-1993, Jordan shot 35.2% from three in the playoffs which was 3.8% above league average. During the first threepeat from 1991-1993, he shot 38.7% which was 4.8% above league average. Note that these numbers were on a normal 3pt line. The narrative that shooting threes was MJ's weakness is just false. In fact, prime MJ was clearly an above average 3pt shooter.

As is not being able to go left. He was right dominant so he was better going right but he was still really good both dribbling and finishing with his left. Go back a few pages and watch the video I posted. 10 minutes of just lefty moves and finishes. A move being "weaker" doesn't make it "weak".

[Airupthere]

Fk all that advanced fancy dribbling and sht

This is ugly as fk and he gets away with it in this current "advanced" game. We done wit it as it is now. :oldlol:


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/pzkgbHBNTQk

Apparently, Youtube Shorts do not show up as normal videos would. This is Lebron doing his lefancy dribbling.

[RRR3]

He didn't expose a weakness. He's Monday Morning Quarterbacking 35 years later. Truth is, nowhere in Detroit's game plan did it say "Let Jordan shoot". There were plenty of things MJ couldn't do as well as some others but he had no flaws that could be exploited. Teams did the best they could and hoped he missed. That's pretty much it. There's no point working on skills that can't be isolated and exploited. Who cares if Shaq can't shoot when teams couldn't force him to shoot? That's not an exploitable weakness. Why would MJ work on logo threes when teams couldn't force him to rely on them? Guys don't need to be ambidextrous, they just need to have a strong enough weak hand or weak side that it can't be exploited. Most guys have small areas of their games that can be exploited. MJ really didn't as confirmed many times (https://fadeawayworld.net/robert-horry-reveals-top-three-greatest-players-all-time-michael-jordan-had-no-flaws-game).
MJ just happened to be open from 3, it wasn’t Detroits plan to let him shoot them tho!

[RRR3]

Before his baseball retirement from 1985-1993, Jordan shot 35.2% from three in the playoffs which was 3.8% above league average. During the first threepeat from 1991-1993, he shot 38.7% which was 4.8% above league average. Note that these numbers were on a normal 3pt line. The narrative that shooting threes was MJ's weakness is just false. In fact, prime MJ was clearly an above average 3pt shooter.

As is not being able to go left. He was right dominant so he was better going right but he was still really good both dribbling and finishing with his left. Go back a few pages and watch the video I posted. 10 minutes of just lefty moves and finishes. A move being "weaker" doesn't make it "weak".
Using small sample sizes to prove anything is disingenuous at best and outright stupid at worst. Over his whole career both playoffs and regular season show MJ was a poor 3pt shooter.

[dankok8]

Using small sample sizes to prove anything is disingenuous at best and outright stupid at worst. Over his whole career both playoffs and regular season show MJ was a poor 3pt shooter.

I'm using MJ's prime. Small sample would be like 10 games. I'm using ~100 playoff games over 9 years.

If you want to argue that older MJ 1997 onwards was a poor 3pt shooter, go run with that.

[RRR3]

I'm using MJ's prime. Small sample would be like 10 games. I'm using ~100 playoff games over 9 years.

If you want to argue that older MJ 1997 onwards was a poor 3pt shooter, go run with that.
You can’t just completely disregard the regular season, that’s braindead. Getting hot at the right time in a few runs doesn’t mean he was a good 3pt shooter, this is basic stuff. He also was shooting at very low volume which leads to more outliers. You are bragging about runs in which he took 0.3 3s a game (86, 88), 1.5 (91) and 1.7 (87). That is like me saying Domantas Sabonis is a good 3pt shooter.

[dankok8]

You can’t just completely disregard the regular season, that’s braindead. Getting hot at the right time in a few runs doesn’t mean he was a good 3pt shooter, this is basic stuff. He also was shooting at very low volume which leads to more outliers. You are bragging about runs in which he took 0.3 3s a game (86, 88), 1.5 (91) and 1.7 (87). That is like me saying Domantas Sabonis is a good 3pt shooter.

Being clearly above average over 100 playoff games is too long to call it a hot streak. I didn't say he was Reggie freakin' Miller.

[RRR3]

Being clearly above average over 100 playoff games is too long to call it a hot streak. I didn't say he was Reggie freakin' Miller.
So he just chose to miss in the regular season? And you’re disregarding volume completely? Stuff like this is why the whole “we done with the 90s thing exists”. You guys are completely incapable of admitting your hero had flaws. Until you stop pretending he was some deadly 3pt shooter it will continue.

[Kblaze8855]

You likely know I watched Jordans entire career and he is comfortably my favorite player of all time, but I never had a problem with the idea he wasn’t a good three-point shooter. He just wasn’t. He doesn’t have to be everything just because standards changed decades after he was building his skill set.he was a good shooter. But you aren’t supposed to be good at something you didn’t value and didn’t work on. What he would be today is irrelevant. He was a great shooter who did not show consistent range as we judge it today. And that’s the issue. He wasn’t playing today so I’m not sure why we expect him to. The statistical specifics of a dominant performance dont really matter.

saying he isn’t a good three-point shooter is no more unreasonable to me than saying a lot of modern guards don’t have a back to the basket game. They added a rule on the top level that made it illegal to back down for five seconds so guards on every level stopped protecting the ball by backing down so they didn’t develop that part of the game as well. it’s a perfectly good explanation, but it doesn’t take away from the fact they don’t have that in their skill set for the most part.

The truth having a valid explanation doesn’t make it false. Just explains the truth.

The truth is Jordan didn’t take or make many threes especially on the full distance line.

Both that…and being better than people who did…can be true at the same time.

It’s definitely more true to say he wasn’t a good three-point shooter than to say he didn’t have an offhand.

[TheMan]

Apparently Mike Peek is expanding his horizons into 80's WWE. I can't wait for the video on the Red Rooster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY1hMk8e8xk&ab_channel=Peektownpodcast%22DONEWITDA80%27S%22

What I find especially hilarious is that this dude is so obviously doing satire but kids taking it like he's being serious :roll: Bad look, Zoomers

[Soundwave]

I believe someone posted that in games where Jordan shot more than two 3s, his percentage went up over 35% from the 3, which is respectable, that's in line with what Luka Doncic has shot for his career. Hard to get into a rhythm with a long distance shot if you're only shooting 1-2 a night.

His shot mechanics are just very good, good release, great lift, very nice follow through, shooting arm placement in the correct "shooting pocket", good rotation on the ball when released, not a whole lot to dislike there.

Now if you want to stomp your feet and huff and puff about "he should have shot more then!", well a player can only play in the time period they exist in, you don't get the benefit of knowing how the sport is played 25 years after the fact, 25 years from now there will be different strategies and people will ask why current players didn't more of XYZ.

At the end of the day he was getting 30+ points a night for his career and winning championships left and right, what difference does it really make whether they came from the 2 or the 3, really. Ain't nobody else averaging 30 for their career right now, call me when there is someone who is there 8, 9 years into their career.

[warriorfan]

free throw% and how good of a shooter you are has a pretty strong correlation

most guys who shoot over 80% are going to be able to have a decent 3 point shot

[Soundwave]

free throw% and how good of a shooter you are has a pretty strong correlation

most guys who shoot over 80% are going to be able to have a decent 3 point shot

You can also look at the shot form, but generally yes. It just wasn't a big priority shot in the 90s.

When you have incredible, explosive athleticism and dunking ability too, there's not a whole lot of incentive to play like ... Steph Curry. Steph plays that way because he's an undersized 2 guard (really) who's dad was a 3 point specialist. There's no reason for a Michael Jordan to develop his game that way, Steph Curry wouldn't have either if he was 6'6, giant hands, tremendous vertical leap and his dad was Dr. J instead.

[tpols]

Aside from the absurd sagging defenses another thing I've noticed since studying the tape is dudes in the 80s didn't have to fight for post position on the throw in entry pass.

Look at this.


https://youtu.be/6Gyj3BcROl0?si=yH4PEu5QKivs766P

And there's a 100 more examples on the page where the defender doesn't even ATTEMPT to wrestle and front. Just let's them catch it free!

How the **** do they allow such easy catches?

[Kblaze8855]

That’s gonna vary with the gameplan. There were a lot more polished post players, and a great deal of them would punish you when you try to front. Without even watching the clip, I can see the Celtics are involved and if Dennis Johnson or bird are on the court and you front who they’re trying to get the ball to they could just throw it off the backboard from the top of the key and still get it to him.


But some people, Pippen, for example, were almost specialists at ball denial in the post. Pippen or Hakeem would lull you to sleep then spring out from behind the tip the entry pass away. Pippen did it while facing bigger defenders all the time. And it’s a big part of how Hakeem was near the league lead in steals as a center. Like everything else it’s gonna vary. You can make any point you want.

I could put together a pretty extensive video on just Pippen post steals and deflections. Hakeem would do it in such a way he could double the guard and get back to tap away the entry to the “open” big he left on the post.

It was a bit of a chess match.

[Kblaze8855]

https://i.ibb.co/swjy1Ck/IMG-8104.gif




Not a one time thing. I’ve seen Bird and DJ both throw that pass. Sometimes to Mchale. They were gonna get that ball in the post one way or the other. Those two…Mchale…Walton. All time basketball IQ. All of them spent their lives in or feeding the post. They knew what they were doing.

[dankok8]

So he just chose to miss in the regular season? And you’re disregarding volume completely? Stuff like this is why the whole “we done with the 90s thing exists”. You guys are completely incapable of admitting your hero had flaws. Until you stop pretending he was some deadly 3pt shooter it will continue.

His volume was low. But that's a different argument altogether. Is Bird not a great 3pt shooter because he shot so few? Is Lillard a better 3pt shooter than Reggie Miller because he takes and makes more?

[SATAN]

https://youtu.be/6Gyj3BcROl0?si=yH4PEu5QKivs766P



:oldlol:

[RRR3]

His volume was low. But that's a different argument altogether. Is Bird not a great 3pt shooter because he shot so few? Is Lillard a better 3pt shooter than Reggie Miller because he takes and makes more?
Bird shot 32% from 3 in the playoffs. So by your logic yes he’s a bad shooter. Caught.

[dankok8]

Bird shot 32% from 3 in the playoffs. So by your logic yes he’s a bad shooter. Caught.

No I didn't get caught because I wouldn't take Bird's numbers outside of his prime to mean squat. 1984-1988 is prime Bird.

[kentatm]

His volume was low. But that's a different argument altogether. Is Bird not a great 3pt shooter because he shot so few? Is Lillard a better 3pt shooter than Reggie Miller because he takes and makes more?

Geez, reading this thread is depressing. Won't be long until dudes start trying to say Dirk wasn't a good shooter.

[tpols]

Geez, reading this thread is depressing. Won't be long until dudes start trying to say Dirk wasn't a good shooter.

Bird shot 32% from 3 in his playoff career. On a sample size that is signifigant. Dirk not only shot way better, but he made almost double the volume of 3s.

This is where people are starting to draw the line with old heads. The facts don't support your nostalgia. Dirk was better than Bird. And he mightve been better than Kobe. But he was a low key guy in the media.

[tpols]

No I didn't get caught because I wouldn't take Bird's numbers outside of his prime to mean squat. 1984-1988 is prime Bird.

That's total bullshit. Bird was winning titles as the best player way before 1984. And his prime was longer than 4 years.

[FKAri]

Bird shot 32% from 3 in his playoff career. On a sample size that is signifigant. Dirk not only shot way better, but he made almost double the volume of 3s.

This is where people are starting to draw the line with old heads. The facts don't support your nostalgia. Dirk was better than Bird. And he mightve been better than Kobe. But he was a low key guy in the media.

What kind of shots are these? How many of these are heaves? How many are broken plays with the ball in his hands and the shot clock running down? How many are catch and shoot open 3s? It's why these numbers from that era don't translate well.

[dankok8]

That's total bullshit. Bird was winning titles as the best player way before 1984. And his prime was longer than 4 years.

Bird was a really good player in 1981 but he wasn't in his prime. In other words, 1984-1988 Bird was much better.

[kentatm]

Bird shot 32% from 3 in his playoff career. On a sample size that is signifigant. Dirk not only shot way better, but he made almost double the volume of 3s.

This is where people are starting to draw the line with old heads. The facts don't support your nostalgia. Dirk was better than Bird. And he mightve been better than Kobe. But he was a low key guy in the media.

I mean... I've argued Dirk was a better offensive player than Kobe here since we were still running on EZ Board but that's for a totally different thread.

But simply looking at Bird's 3pt% in the playoffs to say well he wasn't actually good at them is shallow analysis. The game was not played for 3s back then. Quite a few of them tended to be late shot clock shots or were heaved in desperation b/c the team was so far down. They were not running very many plays to specifically free up shooters the way teams do now.

To me it's like comparing a players batting average and strike out numbers from the 80s to this era. If you just look at the BAs and spike in strikeouts you could say a lot of guys can't hit for shit anymore. But that completely ignores that guys no longer hit for average and would rather go for power b/c analytics say you'll score much more. Kind of the same w/bball. Dudes don't have great 3 point percentages back then mainly b/c the offenses weren't geared towards creating good 3 point looks.

[Baller234]

You can't hold Bird to the same shooting standards as more modern players. It wouldn't be fair. Bird's generation weren't shooting 3's and practicing 3's from the moment they picked up a basketball. The fact that Bird shot 3's as well as he did despite never having to up until that point speaks volumes.

It's not nostalgia clouding people's judgement. That would imply people are just remembering things incorrectly. I was too young, but I imagine witnessing Bird in real time was a lot like witnessing Steph in real time. Nobody had ever shot like that before.

Also, no disrespect to Dirk, but if you think he was better than Bird then you need your eyes checked. Bird is basically Nowitzki but faster and can also run point.

[tpols]

What kind of shots are these? How many of these are heaves? How many are broken plays with the ball in his hands and the shot clock running down? How many are catch and shoot open 3s? It's why these numbers from that era don't translate well.

Do you really think across a sample size between the two of 100s of shots Bird took that many more heaves than Dirk for it to make a difference?

Watching the tape it's even worse because in the 80s everybody was camping the paint and barely guarding the 3pt line. And in Dirks era the 3pt shot post Suns revolution was actually being flown at against. So how Dirk shot better on way higher volume looks even crazier when you look at it under a microscope.

[tpols]

I mean... I've argued Dirk was a better offensive player than Kobe here since we were still running on EZ Board but that's for a totally different thread.

But simply looking at Bird's 3pt% in the playoffs to say well he wasn't actually good at them is shallow analysis. The game was not played for 3s back then. Quite a few of them tended to be late shot clock shots or were heaved in desperation b/c the team was so far down. They were not running very many plays to specifically free up shooters the way teams do now.

To me it's like comparing a players batting average and strike out numbers from the 80s to this era. If you just look at the BAs and spike in strikeouts you could say a lot of guys can't hit for shit anymore. But that completely ignores that guys no longer hit for average and would rather go for power b/c analytics say you'll score much more. Kind of the same w/bball. Dudes don't have great 3 point percentages back then mainly b/c the offenses weren't geared towards creating good 3 point looks.

Baseball is a sport where I feel like it was better back in the day. Talking about power, all the homerun Champs are from decades ago. Barry bonds, Hank Aaron, and Babe Ruth. With the latter being born in 1895. People used to love baseball in the USA. Now every home town field is empty.

[ShawkFactory]

I mean... I've argued Dirk was a better offensive player than Kobe here since we were still running on EZ Board but that's for a totally different thread.

But simply looking at Bird's 3pt% in the playoffs to say well he wasn't actually good at them is shallow analysis. The game was not played for 3s back then. Quite a few of them tended to be late shot clock shots or were heaved in desperation b/c the team was so far down. They were not running very many plays to specifically free up shooters the way teams do now.

To me it's like comparing a players batting average and strike out numbers from the 80s to this era. If you just look at the BAs and spike in strikeouts you could say a lot of guys can't hit for shit anymore. But that completely ignores that guys no longer hit for average and would rather go for power b/c analytics say you'll score much more. Kind of the same w/bball. Dudes don't have great 3 point percentages back then mainly b/c the offenses weren't geared towards creating good 3 point looks.

That's an excellent analogy :applause:

People were asked to do different things. It's the same with pitchers. They're not asked to throw complete games anymore because bullpens are so good. There's more effort in each pitch and strikeouts are higher with the emphasis on power from hitters so they're asked to capitalize on that.

[dankok8]

If you want to argue that Dirk is a better scorer than Bird, I might agree with you but better player? Not a chance. Bird's playmaking alone makes the comparison not very close at all.

[RRR3]

From 2017-21 LeBron shot 37.4% on 5.8 attempts per game from 3 in the playoffs. An elite shooter by dankok's logic! Let's see if he's consistent here :yaohappy:

[dankok8]

From 2017-21 LeBron shot 37.4% on 5.8 attempts per game from 3 in the playoffs. An elite shooter by dankok's logic! Let's see if he's consistent here :yaohappy:

Why wouldn't I be consistent? That Lebron was a very good 3pt shooter.

[RRR3]

Why wouldn't I be consistent? That Lebron was a very good 3pt shooter.
No he wasn’t, and LeBron is my favorite player :facepalm

Players can get hot over small periods of time and have it influence numbers. Even guys who aren’t great shooters can have whole seasons shooting 3s pretty well. Westbrook shot 3s competently in 2017 for instance.

[3ba11]

.
best left-hand drive in history?


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-11-2015/cxsw7A.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2015/_oSP2G.gif


funniest shit ever was the guy that drew a bunch of arrows showing that MJ went right a lot.. surely that guy was being purposefully comical.

[Axe]

.
best left-hand drive in history?


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-11-2015/cxsw7A.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2015/_oSP2G.gif


funniest shit ever was the guy that drew a bunch of arrows showing that MJ went right a lot.. surely that guy was being purposefully comical.
1-9

[dankok8]

No he wasn’t, and LeBron is my favorite player :facepalm

Players can get hot over small periods of time and have it influence numbers. Even guys who aren’t great shooters can have whole seasons shooting 3s pretty well. Westbrook shot 3s competently in 2017 for instance.

Uh huh and... Westbrook in 2017 was a decent 3pt shooter. I'm not going to pretend the man couldn't shoot if he makes 34.3% of his threes for an entire season. Likewise I won't pretend that 2017-2021 playoff Lebron can't shoot when he made 37.4% of his threes over 67 games. In fact in Lebron's case, he's not only decent but clearly above average.

Small sample is like 10 or 20 games. Already around 50 or so games, numbers begin to stabilize and around 80 games, the variance that you see is quite small.

The Thinking Basketball website has a fun and free feature named "player trends" where you can see rolling averages for player shooting. Take Lebron from 2017 to present set it to a 20-game moving average and the 3pt shooting variance is quite large with fluctuations from about 23% to 45%. But then set it to a 82-game moving average and his shooting is always between 33% and 39%. And he spent the vast majority of the time between 35% and 37%. With a full season sample, the data becomes quite stable. Maybe a 37% shooter is really a 35% on a hot streak but that's as far as it goes. Basically if you're shooting 37% from 3pt range over 67 games, you're almost certainly an above average 3pt shooter.

https://thinkingbasketball.net/player-trends/

Of course a more detailed analysis into a player's 3pt shooting could get into the type of shots taken (pull up vs. spot up), defensive attention (open vs. contested), rhythm (in flow vs. out of flow), distance of 3pt shots (23 feet vs. half court heave) etc.

[HoopsNY]

I believe someone posted that in games where Jordan shot more than two 3s, his percentage went up over 35% from the 3, which is respectable, that's in line with what Luka Doncic has shot for his career. Hard to get into a rhythm with a long distance shot if you're only shooting 1-2 a night.

His shot mechanics are just very good, good release, great lift, very nice follow through, shooting arm placement in the correct "shooting pocket", good rotation on the ball when released, not a whole lot to dislike there.

Now if you want to stomp your feet and huff and puff about "he should have shot more then!", well a player can only play in the time period they exist in, you don't get the benefit of knowing how the sport is played 25 years after the fact, 25 years from now there will be different strategies and people will ask why current players didn't more of XYZ.

At the end of the day he was getting 30+ points a night for his career and winning championships left and right, what difference does it really make whether they came from the 2 or the 3, really. Ain't nobody else averaging 30 for their career right now, call me when there is someone who is there 8, 9 years into their career.

MJ had 137 games with 3 or more 3PA from 1985-93. He shot 36.2% from 3 in those games. The stat is a little skewed, though, because we're not exactly sure how many of those threes were bail out vs. open three pointers.

Intuition tells me it's probably a bit of both, so they effectively cancel each other out. But what's more interesting is what his percentage was once he started shooting a bit more from 1989-93. During that stretch, MJ shot 37.1% with >3 attempts.

Of the 137 games from 1985-93, 123 of them were from '89 onward. So, I think it's a bit more indicative.

I think dankok is right to an extent given his playoff performances and when looking at his games with more volume. Also, I'm not sure why there is the need to eliminate '95-'97 all together. It's not as if MJ's line was shorter and everyone else's was longer. Granted, I don't think he would have shot 40% from '95-'97 with a regular line, but 35-37% is reasonable.

[Soundwave]

MJ had 137 games with 3 or more 3PA from 1985-93. He shot 36.2% from 3 in those games. The stat is a little skewed, though, because we're not exactly sure how many of those threes were bail out vs. open three pointers.

Intuition tells me it's probably a bit of both, so they effectively cancel each other out. But what's more interesting is what his percentage was once he started shooting a bit more from 1989-93. During that stretch, MJ shot 37.1% with >3 attempts.

Of the 137 games from 1985-93, 123 of them were from '89 onward. So, I think it's a bit more indicative.

I think dankok is right to an extent given his playoff performances and when looking at his games with more volume. Also, I'm not sure why there is the need to eliminate '95-'97 all together. It's not as if MJ's line was shorter and everyone else's was longer. Granted, I don't think he would have shot 40% from '95-'97 with a regular line, but 35-37% is reasonable.


Well I mean that's all that really has to be said. When he shot more he had a good percentage. I don't think it really matters if it was a bail out shot versus an open 3.

Hard to get into a rhythm with a 3 point shot if you only shoot like one or two of them in a game. 36-37% is a good percentage.

If he was in the league today in his prime I think he'd shoot right around that range 36-38%, probably would spend a little more time working on it given the change in the offensive philosophy of coach's today versus 25+ years ago.

His shot fundamentals are just very sound, he just didn't shoot the 3 enough but that was fairly common for the era, you can only play in the era you exist in, no one has to foresight to see offensive changes 25-30 years out, in 25-30 years from now teams will be playing differently from today, that's beyond a player's control. The only superstar from the 90s who had the 3 pointer as a big part of their game was like Reggie Miller.

[HoopsNY]

Well I mean that's all that really has to be said. When he shot more he had a good percentage. I don't think it really matters if it was a bail out shot versus an open 3.

Hard to get into a rhythm with a 3 point shot if you only shoot like one or two of them in a game. 36-37% is a good percentage.

If he was in the league today in his prime I think he'd shoot right around that range 36-38%, probably would spend a little more time working on it given the change in the offensive philosophy of coach's today versus 25+ years ago.

His shot fundamentals are just very sound, he just didn't shoot the 3 enough but that was fairly common for the era, you can only play in the era you exist in, no one has to foresight to see offensive changes 25-30 years out, in 25-30 years from now teams will be playing differently from today, that's beyond a player's control. The only superstar from the 90s who had the 3 pointer as a big part of their game was like Reggie Miller.

I think people have a point to think he wouldn't be that good. Even when MJ had a decent season (38% in 1989), he didn't follow it up with a solid season. In 1991 and 1992 he only shot 31% and 27%, which is pretty poor. He then had a 35% season in 1993, which then makes the matter confusing.

Some might say given his 1998 performance, that he probably wouldn't fair too well even if we were to exclude the first 5 seasons. For that reason, I'm not too bothered by those who think MJ wouldn't shoot all that well, even in a play style like today.

It's probably splitting hairs, though. 35-37% vs. say 34-35% is probably not significant in the grand scheme of things. But then we've seen LeBron evolve and it does make you wonder. So, who knows, really.

[tpols]

Guy @ :10 to :15 looks like Karl from Family Matters.


https://youtu.be/xPMdubiWiBI?si=oDoVmCoC8Fb43fK9

https://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/8/6/6/544866.jpg?v=1

:lol

[Wardell Curry]

Guy @ :10 to :15 looks like Karl from Family Matters.


https://youtu.be/xPMdubiWiBI?si=oDoVmCoC8Fb43fK9

https://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/8/6/6/544866.jpg?v=1

:lol

:roll:

This guy has like 5 lines tops so this is going to run its course here shortly but I still laughed.

[tpols]

Yo watch him @ :40 dribble. He moves EXACTLY like Harden! We're living in the matrix fellas.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ had 137 games with 3 or more 3PA from 1985-93. He shot 36.2% from 3 in those games. The stat is a little skewed, though, because we're not exactly sure how many of those threes were bail out vs. open three pointers.

Intuition tells me it's probably a bit of both, so they effectively cancel each other out. But what's more interesting is what his percentage was once he started shooting a bit more from 1989-93. During that stretch, MJ shot 37.1% with >3 attempts.

Of the 137 games from 1985-93, 123 of them were from '89 onward. So, I think it's a bit more indicative.

I think dankok is right to an extent given his playoff performances and when looking at his games with more volume. Also, I'm not sure why there is the need to eliminate '95-'97 all together. It's not as if MJ's line was shorter and everyone else's was longer. Granted, I don't think he would have shot 40% from '95-'97 with a regular line, but 35-37% is reasonable.

One thing that I haven't seen taken into consideration with all the times I've seen this data is: Does that mean he gets better on more attempts or does he take that many on nights he's heated up? Most players will tack on a few more attempts on nights the shot goes down. Perhaps it's more an indicator of being streaky, especially considering the putrid percentages other years. Also the playoff percentage being higher may be a function of simply not taking bad shots from 3, we saw what that did for Lebrons 3pt% in Miami.

[HoopsNY]

One thing that I haven't seen taken into consideration with all the times I've seen this data is: Does that mean he gets better on more attempts or does he take that many on nights he's heated up? Most players will tack on a few more attempts on nights the shot goes down. Perhaps it's more an indicator of being streaky, especially considering the putrid percentages other years. Also the playoff percentage being higher may be a function of simply not taking bad shots from 3, we saw what that did for Lebrons 3pt% in Miami.

From what I've seen, it seems to be a trend that players improve as their volume increases. This was generally the case with the greats from the 80s going into the 90s, and what we've seen more recently from 2015 onward.

It makes sense, actually. These are NBA players, and not just any players, but some of the best. Why wouldn't they improve at something they consistently practice, or something that's made to be the mainstream style of play within the league?

Having said that, I have no problem thinking that MJ wouldn't shoot higher than 35% in a league like today's. Though I do think he would hover around 35-36%, with some years being 33-34%, and some possibly being 37-39%.

[SATAN]

Guy @ :10 to :15 looks like Karl from Family Matters.


https://youtu.be/xPMdubiWiBI?si=oDoVmCoC8Fb43fK9

https://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/8/6/6/544866.jpg?v=1

:lol

:roll:

[Phoenix]

From what I've seen, it seems to be a trend that players improve as their volume increases. This was generally the case with the greats from the 80s going into the 90s, and what we've seen more recently from 2015 onward.

It makes sense, actually. These are NBA players, and not just any players, but some of the best. Why wouldn't they improve at something they consistently practice, or something that's made to be the mainstream style of play within the league?

Having said that, I have no problem thinking that MJ wouldn't shoot higher than 35% in a league like today's. Though I do think he would hover around 35-36%, with some years being 33-34%, and some possibly being 37-39%.

I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption when you look at someone like KD, who has the rep of being sniper, but has a number of sub 40% seasons at like 5 attempts( also has some seasons above of course). Dame is also at 37% for his career, on 8 attempts. I doubt MJ in this era would be taking that many due to his driving/finishing ability. Probably like 4-5 attempts and anywhere from 35 to 37% is fair as it would be more of a practiced shot from the outset of his career and not something he added 4-5 years in.

[Kblaze8855]

Yo watch him @ :40 dribble. He moves EXACTLY like Harden! We're living in the matrix fellas.

that old guy is Walt Hazzard. He was in the NBA in the 60s and I’m pretty sure he went to UCLA. He was a coach around the time Reggie would’ve been there so I’m not sure what kind of special event that was but he wasn’t a player.

[Kblaze8855]

OK Turns out that’s the 1986 UCLA alumni game. Those guys look 40-50 because they are 40-50. Walt was indeed the head coach at the time. I’ve seen old timers games made fun of by people who didn’t realize what they were before but I suspect this guy knows and just knows his audience won’t know any better.

Sports kind of came together as one to stop letting old guys come back for these games around this time when a couple old guys got hurt. In one of the old timers games the NBA did I want to say Oscar Robertson tore his ACL. Might’ve been somebody else. I know two people got hurt the same year and one of them really ****ed up his knee. They probably can’t get those games insured anymore.

[HoopsNY]

OK Turns out that’s the 1986 UCLA alumni game. Those guys look 40-50 because they are 40-50. Walt was indeed the head coach at the time. I’ve seen old timers games made fun of by people who didn’t realize what they were before but I suspect this guy knows and just knows his audience won’t know any better. Sports kind of came together as one to stop letting old guys come back for these games around this time when a couple old guys got hurt. In one of the old timers games the NBA did I want to say Oscar Robertson tore his ACL. Might’ve been somebody else. I know two people got hurt the same year and one of them really ****ed up his knee. They probably can’t get those games insured anymore.

The "we done with the 80s/90s" guy is trolling. He's now moved onto the 2000s and is going in on Melo and AI. tpols hasn't figured out that part yet it seems.

[HoopsNY]

I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption when you look at someone like KD, who has the rep of being sniper, but has a number of sub 40% seasons at like 5 attempts( also has some seasons above of course). Dame is also at 37% for his career, on 8 attempts. I doubt MJ in this era would be taking that many due to his driving/finishing ability. Probably like 4-5 attempts and anywhere from 35 to 37% is fair as it would be more of a practiced shot from the outset of his career and not something he added 4-5 years in.

I think the LeBron fans on the forum don't even think that much. I think they think he would shoot less than that.

[Phoenix]

I think the LeBron fans on the forum don't even think that much. I think they think he would shoot less than that.

Probably. I'm not sure it really matters though. I look at SGA averaging 31 with 3.6 3pa on 37% shooting, and 9 free throw attempts. MJ even matching that in 3s and likely being on the line 11-12 times a night will push him into the mid 30's. Luka practically waltzes in the lane at 1/4 speed and gets 9 free throw attempts and shoots 24 times a night, 10 3point attempts at 38%. Giannis is on the line 11 times a night playing downhill. Embiid is doing 35 shooting 3.3 3p attempts at 37%, 88% on 12 FTA. You can kind of take little bits and pieces from what other players do and extrapolate. I'm not on the bandwagon of thinking he would do 40, because I don't think it's conducive to winning and he'd have to be on a bottom feeding team shot-jacking over 25 attempts a night and have high percentages/volume across the board. I'm more in the ballpark of thinking his 89 season ( 33/8/8) will be his baseline most years and add an extra point/assist or two depending on the season, team strategy, and roster. His raw stats may be what you see Luka doing this year except he won't be a lamp-post on defense and will play with a much higher motor and be able to incorporate more off-ball instead of dominating the rock.

[SATAN]

These guys looking to frown upon others after just realizing he doesn't only make videos about the 80s and 90s. :oldlol:

So sad seeing another generation of the boomer mentality.

[tpols]

Yo we just found a clip of grandpa kblaze watching these videos. :lol


https://youtu.be/ye6JEw9VZ2Y?si=s8277plL-hbD7Q8M

[Soundwave]

From what I've seen, it seems to be a trend that players improve as their volume increases. This was generally the case with the greats from the 80s going into the 90s, and what we've seen more recently from 2015 onward.

It makes sense, actually. These are NBA players, and not just any players, but some of the best. Why wouldn't they improve at something they consistently practice, or something that's made to be the mainstream style of play within the league?

Having said that, I have no problem thinking that MJ wouldn't shoot higher than 35% in a league like today's. Though I do think he would hover around 35-36%, with some years being 33-34%, and some possibly being 37-39%.

The more you shoot a shot from basically anywhere on the court, the better your accuracy will get.

I know apparently not many people here have played organized basketball, doesn't even sound like a lot of people here even play pick up ball (put down the PS5 controller fellas and break a sweat, your body will thank you for it one day).

But as someone who played a lot growing up at various levels ... absolutely it makes a huge difference if you're shooting 1 or 2 threes a game versus 3-10 a night like modern players do. Jordan's percentage being higher and in line with modern players when he shot 3 or more a night is perfectly logical.

Shit, even for free throws it makes a big difference if you're only shooting 1 or 2 free throws a night versus shooting like 8 or 9. It's much easier to get a rhythm at the line the more you shoot. A 3 point shot is not any different. You can't get into any kind of rhythm with a shot if you're only shooting 1 or 2 from that range a night unless we're talking like lay ups or put backs and things like that.

Based on the fact that Jordan shot a bit over 36% in games where he took 3 or more 3 pointers, I think that would basically be the floor for him in the modern game because he'd shoot in that range minimum given how the game is played today. He'd probably naturally practise that shot more given it has more emphasis put on it today, so that 36% could very easily go to 38%, 39%, maybe even 40% in certain years.

[Wardell Curry]

Yo we just found a clip of grandpa kblaze watching these videos. :lol


https://youtu.be/ye6JEw9VZ2Y?si=s8277plL-hbD7Q8M


It really is amazing to me how people can interpret literally one person trolling like the guy that started all of this cited in the OP and do two things.

1 - Take the argument/memeing seriously
2 - Label an entire generation of people as having the same views even though the guy making the videos isn't even from said generation

This kind of take is embarrassing. The guy making these videos doesn't think Michael Jordan was trash and neither does anyone posting here that isn't trying to get a reaction out of people.

[tpols]

It really is amazing to me how people can interpret literally one person trolling like the guy that started all of this cited in the OP and do two things.

1 - Take the argument/memeing seriously
2 - Label an entire generation of people as having the same views even though the guy making the videos isn't even from said generation

This kind of take is embarrassing. The guy making these videos doesn't think Michael Jordan was trash and neither does anyone posting here that isn't trying to get a reaction out of people.

A lot of people take it too serious... can't joke around nowadays.

[Soundwave]

It really is amazing to me how people can interpret literally one person trolling like the guy that started all of this cited in the OP and do two things.

1 - Take the argument/memeing seriously
2 - Label an entire generation of people as having the same views even though the guy making the videos isn't even from said generation

This kind of take is embarrassing. The guy making these videos doesn't think Michael Jordan was trash and neither does anyone posting here that isn't trying to get a reaction out of people.

He's taking it too seriously, it's just a dumb insincere trend that a few nerds on the internet are clamouring about, not many people really agree with the takes.

Gen Z loves Jordan, they watched The Last Dance in droves, they buy Air Jordans still in droves, if it was just 80s/90s-heads buying those shoes they would've fizzled as a brand 10-15 years ago. How many young people would rock like Magic Johnson shoes today ... not many. Shit how many kids even wear Iverson or Vince Carter or Dwayne Wade merch these days ... pretty much no one outside of the odd retro Raptors 15 jersey you'll see pop up when visiting Toronto. I see kids all the time wearing like Air Jordans or something that they probably paid out the ass for, lol. And not just like the Air Jordan XI or something, like everything from the Air Jordan I through to the XIV especially, I end up seeing all over the place.

[FireDavidKahn]

This is pathetic.

MJ is literary getting the Ben Simmons treatment.

https://twitter.com/BronnyMuse06/status/1772079665609400586

90s basketball has been busted. SOrry. No coming back from that!@

[SATAN]

This is pathetic.

MJ is literary getting the Ben Simmons treatment.

https://twitter.com/BronnyMuse06/status/1772079665609400586

90s basketball has been busted. SOrry. No coming back from that!@

:roll:

[tpols]

This is pathetic.

MJ is literary getting the Ben Simmons treatment.

https://twitter.com/BronnyMuse06/status/1772079665609400586

90s basketball has been busted. SOrry. No coming back from that!@

This is why I laugh when people say guys today would get locked up in the 90s because they're not tough enough. Yes... scoring in the paint would be way harder but they would get absolutely sniped playing that type of defense. And that was the standard if you watch the tape .

[Wardell Curry]

All jokes aside, as they existed in reality at their peaks and not from a speculative standpoint of how they would do in a certain era had they grown up in that era, which team is winning?

Magic, Jordan, Bird, Barkley, Olajuwon

Curry, Thompson, James, Durant, Jokic

Feel free to substitute people from the 80s/90s as you see fit, I don't really care.

[Baller234]

All jokes aside, as they existed in reality at their peaks and not from a speculative standpoint of how they would do in a certain era had they grown up in that era, which team is winning?

Magic, Jordan, Bird, Barkley, Olajuwon

Curry, Thompson, James, Durant, Jokic

Feel free to substitute people from the 80s/90s as you see fit, I don't really care.

If you transported that 80's team to current day using a time machine and they had to play that day, and they didn't have time to adapt or develop a more modern approach, they would lose.

They would basically be trading 2's for 3's the entire game.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzkwHSN0r9E

This dude is a legit comedian. James Worthy guarding James Worthy. :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Last night a full game of Bulls/Pistons from 96 popped up on my YouTube( the game Jordan had 53) so I said why not so watched the first 18 minutes or so. Was quite jarring....a number of times Ron Harper, Jud Buechler, Kukoc got wide open 3s, Pistons don't even bother closing on them. Clank after clank. Joe Dumars clanked a few open jumpers, ditto for Houston. The guy who looked like the 'shooter' on the floor was Terry Mills who had a physique resembling Jokic. Funny enough in the moment Luc Longley came out the gate looking like the Bulls 2nd option. Rodman mixing it up on the inside with Don Reid and Otis Thorpe with his antics drew a chuckle.

Not the finest representation of 90s basketball but in the moment I could see a younger fan from today watching it and coming away thinking these guys couldn't shoot. Mostly I was looking at it seeing MJ draw tons of shots for guys and thinking aloud imagine if he had todays shooters on the wings.

[90sgoat]

number of times Ron Harper, Jud Buechler, Kukoc got wide open 3s, Pistons don't even bother closing on them. Clank after clank.

In 1996 Tonik Kukoc hit 40% from 3, Jud Buechler hit 44% and Steve Kerr hit 53%. MJ made 43%.

It was the shortened season.

If people think that those players couldn't step half a foot back and still hit the 3 at a respectable rate, if the teams decided to plan for it, then yeah, that's not rational.

I think most younger people who look at 90s don't really understand what they're watching. They don't understand the physicality and the packed paints, they don't understand that a semi-open midrange shot is as good a shot as you're ever going to get. That's why players took them constantly. It was considered your most consistent option, because you weren't getting open layups and you might not have a great post player, so your strategy is to execute decisively and when you see daylight you take the shot.

Personally, what I see is a very fast and dynamic game, not fast as in number of possesions, but in decision making. There is no room to pound the ball endlessly or try to get just the right matchup, you try to make quick decisions to get some space and then you make a move. You don't endlessly pass the ball around or endlessly dribble the ball.

If people ever played basketball like this, they'd understand how demanding it is and why tempo and fundamentals were very important.

[tpols]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzkwHSN0r9E

This dude is a legit comedian. James Worthy guarding James Worthy. :oldlol:

It's actually crazy. Watch the beginning of this clip... guards on the left side of the court dribbling like TEN times in a row all right handed. And absolutely ZERO ball pressure. And the Lakers and the Jazz were considered great teams. This shit is crazy.

[tpols]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzkwHSN0r9E

This dude is a legit comedian. James Worthy guarding James Worthy. :oldlol:

It's actually crazy. Watch the beginning of this clip... guards on the left side of the court dribbling like TEN times in a row all right handed. And absolutely ZERO ball pressure. And the Lakers and the Jazz were considered great teams. This shit is crazy. We've been hoodwinked fellas.

[tpols]

Guy looks like he can actually ball too.


https://youtu.be/5LFIm-YyDxc?si=VNOIgddz1aTvUG5p

Hitting jumper after jumper. Left handed.

[j3lademaster]

All sports get better as time goes on, especially sports with skill nuances that can be learned like basketball or baseball. Objective records are all meant to be broken, ie 100m dash, pitching speeds etc. The reason I differentiate is because certain records like... basically the holy book of Wilt will probably never be broken because we aren't going to see that level of talent disparity ever again.

[Phoenix]

In 1996 Tonik Kukoc hit 40% from 3, Jud Buechler hit 44% and Steve Kerr hit 53%. MJ made 43%.

It was the shortened season.

If people think that those players couldn't step half a foot back and still hit the 3 at a respectable rate, if the teams decided to plan for it, then yeah, that's not rational.

I think most younger people who look at 90s don't really understand what they're watching. They don't understand the physicality and the packed paints, they don't understand that a semi-open midrange shot is as good a shot as you're ever going to get. That's why players took them constantly. It was considered your most consistent option, because you weren't getting open layups and you might not have a great post player, so your strategy is to execute decisively and when you see daylight you take the shot.

Personally, what I see is a very fast and dynamic game, not fast as in number of possesions, but in decision making. There is no room to pound the ball endlessly or try to get just the right matchup, you try to make quick decisions to get some space and then you make a move. You don't endlessly pass the ball around or endlessly dribble the ball.

If people ever played basketball like this, they'd understand how demanding it is and why tempo and fundamentals were very important.

All preaching to the converted. What I'm saying is if you had a young fan whose only been exposed to modern ball, and specifically if they wanted to validate their opinions on the 90's or some of these memes going around, what I saw last night in a snapshot would have provided them the ammo they wanted. Alot of these takes are just using snippets to formulate or confirm pre-existing views about the entire era.

[tpols]

All sports get better as time goes on, especially sports with skill nuances that can be learned like basketball or baseball. Objective records are all meant to be broken, ie 100m dash, pitching speeds etc. The reason I differentiate is because certain records like... basically the holy book of Wilt will probably never be broken because we aren't going to see that level of talent disparity ever again.

Did baseball get better? That's a sports the 90s and 00s seemed to be better than today. The mechanics of baseball haven't really changed in the past 30 or 40 years. Maybe 50 years.

Basketball mechanics have fundamentally changed in regards to shooting and dribbling tactics just watching the tape nobody in the 80s had handles like some of these dudes today and it isn't just palming rules because I seen Jordan palm 1000 times. They just have more moves and don't overuse either hand like the righties all did. And more importantly their shooting ability forces the defender to be up closer which makes a blow by far easier than if they were sagging.

It's just like a double whammy that the long range shooting not only gives you a 50+% bonus but it also allows drives and forays into the paint much easier to handle. Stars of the past would still be great but teams today would totally smoke 80s and 90s teams.

[FireDavidKahn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzkwHSN0r9E

This dude is a legit comedian. James Worthy guarding James Worthy. :oldlol:

Between this and seeing MJ get the Ben Simmons treatment, who can take those era's seriously anymore?

:roll:

[Axe]

Did baseball get better? That's a sports the 90s and 00s seemed to be better than today. The mechanics of baseball haven't really changed in the past 30 or 40 years. Maybe 50 years.

Basketball mechanics have fundamentally changed in regards to shooting and dribbling tactics just watching the tape nobody in the 80s had handles like some of these dudes today and it isn't just palming rules because I seen Jordan palm 1000 times. They just have more moves and don't overuse either hand like the righties all did. And more importantly their shooting ability forces the defender to be up closer which makes a blow by far easier than if they were sagging.

It's just like a double whammy that the long range shooting not only gives you a 50+% bonus but it also allows drives and forays into the paint much easier to handle. Stars of the past would still be great but teams today would totally smoke 80s and 90s teams.
Depends. But a lot of stuff, even ones outside of sports usually become better in terms of being advanced than how they used to be before. For example, exotic cars and elite smartphones today are much more capable than what were offered in the past. Putting that analogy in the league, nowadays you can see the variety in the international talents existing have been popularized because of their rising numbers compared to what was seen bt. But yes, the rules and play styles have changed too. It's simply a part of the process as well. There would be no innovation if they keep on going for the same formula, i guess.

[90sgoat]

I can think of a bunch of sports that didn't get better.

I would argue pro-cycling didn't get better and outside of Usain Bolt, not really athletics either.

[ShawkFactory]

I can think of a bunch of sports that didn't get better.

I would argue pro-cycling didn't get better and outside of Usain Bolt, not really athletics either.

Speaking of generational or all-time talents is never a smart move when discussing athletics as a whole. Average 100 times are higher than they’ve been, despite Bolt being the GOAT. Baseball players are stronger and better across an entire roster despite Ruth, Aaron, and Bonds being as great as they were.

A few tough Euro players on the 90s doesn’t mean everyone could hang.

Focusing on the abnormal distracts from the actual norm.

[FKAri]

Did baseball get better?
Absolutely. And it's quite clear because you can look at objective metrics like average fastball velocity and movement. And then you have someone like Mike Trout who's able to hit these superior pitches at the same clip as Ken Griffey Jr.

[tpols]

Absolutely. And it's quite clear because you can look at objective metrics like average fastball velocity and movement. And then you have someone like Mike Trout who's able to hit these superior pitches at the same clip as Ken Griffey Jr.

Fastball isn't the only pitch. Pitching is about placement and catching batters off guard with different speed and movement... not just slamming it as fast as you can through the box.

The GOAT pitchers are all from past eras if you look up any list. And all the best homerun hitters are as well. It's not even close.

Nothing has fundamentally changed about baseball to the same degree it has with basketball. The 3 point revolution is on an entirely different level.

It would be like if past baseball players never swung for homeruns and now they suddenly did. That's what the 3pt line did.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnaE1B1M0NI

[FKAri]

Fastball isn't the only pitch. Pitching is about placement and catching batters off guard with different speed and movement... not just slamming it as fast as you can through the box.

The GOAT pitchers are all from past eras if you look up any list. And all the best homerun hitters are as well. It's not even close.

Movement on pitches has gone up. Spin rate has gone up. Speed has gone up. The only reason there's no GOAT pitching candidates from recent years is because there's so much talent in the bullpen that starters don't throw as much.


Nothing has fundamentally changed about baseball to the same degree it has with basketball.

Which is why it's easier to argue the skill level has increased in baseball than in basketball. You can do a more apples to apples comparison.

[Carbine]

Randy Johnson, Maddux, Pedro, etc tell those guys pitching has gotten better. Those are the two filthiest pitchers and the best control pitcher possibly ever.

And Pedro/Randy did it in the steroid era. That was baseball's "golden era" in terms of performance, because it was literally the enhancement era for a large majority of the players.

[FKAri]

Randy Johnson, Maddux, Pedro, etc tell those guys pitching has gotten better. Those are the two filthiest pitchers and the best control pitcher possibly ever.

And Pedro/Randy did it in the steroid era. That was baseball's "golden era" in terms of performance, because it was literally the enhancement era for a large majority of the players.

There's one thing I can't check with stats for a pitcher: Location. I'd have to ask the catcher. I'd have to get in their heads. Maddux had tremendous control for example.

But everything else? I can check the tape and the tape tells everyone that the pitches thrown today are faster, have more life and more movement than ever. Are the pitchers better? Well, this is trickier because they are going max effort more than in the past. They are throwing until their arms fall off and not having long careers or even pitching a lot of innings. But that is irrelevant for the sake of this argument: The pitches the hitters are seeing are better than ever. Period.

[RRR3]

There's one thing I can't check with stats for a pitcher: Location. I'd have to ask the catcher. I'd have to get in their heads. Maddux had tremendous control for example.

But everything else? I can check the tape and the tape tells everyone that the pitches thrown today are faster, have more life and more movement than ever. Are the pitchers better? Well, this is trickier because they are going max effort more than in the past. They are throwing until their arms fall off and not having long careers or even pitching a lot of innings. But that is irrelevant for the sake of this argument: The pitches the hitters are seeing are better than ever. Period.
This is so insane to me. Not caring about longevity is just mind-boggling. It's gonna be extremely hard for a starting pitcher to make the HOF at the rate things are going. I'd much rather have the career of Kyle Lowry than Derrick Rose, to use a basketball analogy. Is this just a pitcher in baseball thing? Because no one is sacrificing themselves like this in basketball.

[j3lademaster]

Randy Johnson, Maddux, Pedro, etc tell those guys pitching has gotten better. Those are the two filthiest pitchers and the best control pitcher possibly ever.

And Pedro/Randy did it in the steroid era. That was baseball's "golden era" in terms of performance, because it was literally the enhancement era for a large majority of the players.Forming an argument using the exceptions isn't a good argument. The average pitch is better now. Period. It doesn't mean Randy Johnson can't hang today.

[j3lademaster]

This is so insane to me. Not caring about longevity is just mind-boggling. It's gonna be extremely hard for a starting pitcher to make the HOF at the rate things are going. I'd much rather have the career of Kyle Lowry than Derrick Rose, to use a basketball analogy. Is this just a pitcher in baseball thing? Because no one is sacrificing themselves like this in basketball.It's become the new competitive standard, so you kind of have to. There is much less of a gap between star pitchers vs the rest of the league than ever, just like how roleplayers are getting better in the nba. The main difference between the sports is that basketball will always be 5 on 5, so better roleplayers who are out there to play for their stars will actually make the stars look better and put up better numbers i.e better shooters than ever = better assist numbers than ever, whereas baseball is always going to be a lot of one on one- pitcher vs hitter. Framing has gotten better too though, so catchers have something to do with it, but you get the picture. No one's going to pitch 250 innings anymore(no one is going to play 44min like Iverson in the NBA either) like Johnson did, and it's not because players back then were simply built different like the boomers want you to believe.

Really puts into perspective how insane Shohei Ohtani is.

[ShawkFactory]

This is so insane to me. Not caring about longevity is just mind-boggling. It's gonna be extremely hard for a starting pitcher to make the HOF at the rate things are going. I'd much rather have the career of Kyle Lowry than Derrick Rose, to use a basketball analogy. Is this just a pitcher in baseball thing? Because no one is sacrificing themselves like this in basketball.

It's now a part of the competitiveness of even getting a spot in the league. You have to be able to throw in a certain way and that nowadays isn't usually conducive to a long career. I don't think pitchers necessarily want this, but it has to happen.

There are so many guys out there now that you have to set yourself apart somehow.

[RRR3]

You guys say this but there’s still plenty of guys throwing in the low 90s who made the league. Some of the elite guys are maxing out around 96 which is certainly fast but not unheard of from prior eras by any means. It’s the guys trying to throw 100 every pitch who are getting hurt

[GimmeThat]

it's awful in the sense that everyone played by their own rules, and so it was prime time for politics and people who wanted a piece of the pie.

so yea, the established(married) can't keep their peace

[tpols]

https://youtu.be/H_kxs_ilLqI?si=dHKj3KTFaFB6WxV3

Roast of Larry Bird:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

You guys say this but there’s still plenty of guys throwing in the low 90s who made the league. Some of the elite guys are maxing out around 96 which is certainly fast but not unheard of from prior eras by any means. It’s the guys trying to throw 100 every pitch who are getting hurt

It's not about how fast you throw in a vacuum, but how fast you throw compared to what your individual body will allow. There are plenty of guys throwing 92 who are absolutely maxing out at that velo. Someone like that may not make the league if they threw the more comfortable and repeatable 88.

[tpols]

Listen Kblaze brought this thing to our attention. He blessed us with the footage. Watch this shit.


https://youtu.be/6GS4DRuVxPo?si=ebLCz7rgwFvJXSLJ

WHERE is the handchecking? There's 100s of these videos they can't all be cherrypicked. Guys sagging off playing zero D until you enter the paint.

I'm mad about it because I remember in high school in the mid 2000s our coach would run us through full court press 1v1 drills and dudes would hit and grab the hell out of you to not let you get by. There was no whistle. If you complained you'd get bullied and called soft.

This pro defense is weaker than what I went through at a nobody high school. I'm 100% serious.

[RRR3]

So. You got LeBron over MJ tpols?

[tpols]

After watching the tape as a pure basketball talent? Yes. Lebron is way bigger stronger and faster, he has a way better symmetrical handle and honestly the guys jumper over the past decade has been better than MJs. He ĥas great form and factually can hit long jumpers better than Jordan.

Watching these old timers play man... I'm jealous. Because when I played you had to bust your ass to get the ball up the court and if you wanted good post position? You'd have to damn near get in a fight. This 80s tape is showing dudes getting everything for EXTRA free.

It's all on tape.

[j3lademaster]

So. You got LeBron over MJ tpols?Nah, mj averages 45 ppg and Wilt gets 40/25. Modern era just can’t keep up.

[SATAN]

After watching the tape as a pure basketball talent? Yes.

https://c.tenor.com/0lNa_DJO0a8AAAAd/another-one.gif

:rockon:

[paksat]

After watching the tape as a pure basketball talent? Yes. Lebron is way bigger stronger and faster, he has a way better symmetrical handle and honestly the guys jumper over the past decade has been better than MJs. He ĥas great form and factually can hit long jumpers better than Jordan.

Watching these old timers play man... I'm jealous. Because when I played you had to bust your ass to get the ball up the court and if you wanted good post position? You'd have to damn near get in a fight. This 80s tape is showing dudes getting everything for EXTRA free.

It's all on tape.

so 2024 team you'd bet good money on them to win vs 92 dream team right? :roll:


man stfu LOL

[SATAN]

^^^Hasn't watched a game since Jordan retired.

[warriorfan]

^^^Hasn't watched a game since Jordan retired.

^^^ hasn’t had sex since his father stopped raping him in the 90’s

[FKAri]

After watching the tape as a pure basketball talent? Yes. Lebron is way bigger stronger and faster, he has a way better symmetrical handle and honestly the guys jumper over the past decade has been better than MJs. He ĥas great form and factually can hit long jumpers better than Jordan.

Watching these old timers play man... I'm jealous. Because when I played you had to bust your ass to get the ball up the court and if you wanted good post position? You'd have to damn near get in a fight. This 80s tape is showing dudes getting everything for EXTRA free.

It's all on tape.
I don't think anyone better than MJ has come along since. I think an argument can be made for Shaq and Bron in terms of talent but they don't equal MJ in terms of how it translates to winning.

So if you want to argue in Bron's favor, you have to go the route of longevity or highlight how he can do more things than MJ. The other thing you can bring up is how the league as a whole has gotten deeper and more talented as a whole(making it harder to dominate it as easily). Personally, I don't think it's enough to unseat MJ from either the best ever list or the GOAT list.

[Baller234]

After watching the tape as a pure basketball talent? Yes. Lebron is way bigger stronger and faster, he has a way better symmetrical handle and honestly the guys jumper over the past decade has been better than MJs. He ĥas great form and factually can hit long jumpers better than Jordan.

:oldlol:

Bron is more talented than Jordan when it comes to passing, that's basically it. Any other advantages he has you can attribute to his size and strength, not talent. If the two of them switched bodies it wouldn't even be close.

Bron being a better shooter than Jordan is also ridiculous. Jordan could kill you with his pull up jumper, his fade-away jumper AND his turnaround jumper. Whereas Bron mostly "settles" for jumpers, these were go to moves that Jordan could rely upon at will. This combined with his ability to get to the rim is what made him so unstoppable.

I actually can't believe you think Lebron has a better shooting form either. That's crazy talk to me. Jordan's form is basically textbook. Very few players if ever have looked better shooting the ball. Kobe as well. Lebron's looks extremely clunky by comparison.

[eliteballer]

Did someone say LeRoid has a better handle than Jordan?:roll:

[eliteballer]

So much more intense and physical than the modern game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYFeUUg7Zsw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wLW2UwkcG4

[90sgoat]

I watched Lebron's first NBA game.

I remember thinking "the **** are they on about".

Because I was not watching Jordan, I was not watching Kobe or even Tmac.

I concluded that I was watching a PF playing as a PG, which I then better understood and could see how was impressive, but I also realized that this PF playing as a PG did not have the elite skill of true PGs or SGs.

[SATAN]

eliteballer

NBA Superstar
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Another casual bites the dust. :pimp:

[SATAN]

I watched Lebron's first NBA game.

I remember thinking "the **** are they on about".

Because I was not watching Jordan, I was not watching Kobe or even Tmac.

I concluded that I was watching a PF playing as a PG, which I then better understood and could see how was impressive, but I also realized that this PF playing as a PG did not have the elite skill of true PGs or SGs.

Retard alert

[tpols]

After watching more tape I realize it aint just a Jordan thing. Every great player back then was spamming the right hand dribble.

Look at this clip.


https://youtu.be/0fTlf8faUyA?si=aJwmA1Ie1MUgYM47

Even Magic Johnson spammed right hand dribble. And even on the left side of the court. If you tried to pick his dribble off he'd throw his ass at you and go into post position.

Yall were unskilled and Zesty man. We ain't with that in the new school.