Draymond responds to Marion’s claim he was a better defender.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/gOhr7D-Xgc0?si=MSL84S33aqYgZXOH


He disagrees of course. He takes a moment getting there but his argument was based on guarding Jokic, JJJ, Brunson, and Jaylen as the primary guy in 4 straight series. You can hear it from him though.


Marion was certainly underrated either way. Though maybe he was one of those guys so consistently called underrated that it brought his rating up to where it should be. I do remember watching him guard both Yao Ming and Tmac in the same game though. I’ve always brought him up when people point out LeBron could defend one through five. It’s true(or was) but it’s never been close to unique. It’s just being a quick small forward.

Satch Sanders was guarding both Oscar and West types and Wilt in the 60s. I’ve seen James Worthy guard at least 4 positions. Hell Larry Bird too though of course not as well. Pippen guarded Ewing, Webber, Mark Jackson and whoever.

Ive seen Marion guard Duncan and Tony Parker in the same game as well.

Whole guard 5 positions argument is just being a tough small forward. ****ing Stacy Augmon could guard all 5 positions once centers largely stopped being scorers. Deng too.

Derek McKey. Rodman covered all 5 as a Piston. Draymond too get back to the issue. Tatum can guard 5 positions vs some teams.

The whole thing was always overblown far as being special and the era of position-less ball makes it even more so…though switch everything defenses make it useful.

Anyway…got off track there. Let me go get some fruity pebbles….

[j3lademaster]

It’s close, but I give it to Marion, who was more effective defending elite wings in iso: Kobe, Tmac, Truth, etc. Marion is actually the more versatile because he’s closer to Draymond at guarding bigs than Draymond is to him at defending quick guards. Marion’s also a much better rebounder, you can legit count on him to play the 5 as your primary rebounder in today’s game.

[BarberSchool]

Marion WAS a better defender.
Straight up.
Draymond is a very impactful defender, and he gets the crowd involved more than Marion did.

Draymond, for that reason, to the casual fan, with emotionally imprinted memories, is:
THE MORE MEMORABLE DEFENDER.

But that doesn’t make you better.
More Fame =\= more actual greatness.

[1987_Lakers]

You guys are nuts. Draymond is the better defender. Draymond anchored a bunch of top tier defenses and actually has a DPOY, Marion never even made an All-defensive team (which is weird to say) and those Suns teams always struggled defensively even with Marion. Both could guard multiple positions, but Draymond was better at defending bigs.

[Axe]

The warriors would never win 73 wins nor make the finals five straight times without the donkey.

[Carbine]

Draymond definitely was a more impactful defender.

[iamgine]

Guarding more positions is called more versatile, not necessarily better defender.

[Reggie43]

Marion was a better defender it just happened that draymond was on a better team

[FultzNationRISE]

Another case where it just depends what you need.

Both CAN play all over but Marion will be better guarding a ball handler on the perimeter and Green will be better guarding big bodies the paint.

Id personally take Green if we’re talking strictly defense altho again it’s kind of apples and oranges because they excel at different things. But it’s not a terribly lopsided comparison IMO. Marion was a very capable individual defender in his own right. But Green just gives you more umph in the paint while still being able to guard stretch bigs effectively.

[Im Still Ballin]

You guys are nuts. Draymond is the better defender. Draymond anchored a bunch of top tier defenses and actually has a DPOY, Marion never even made an All-defensive team (which is weird to say) and those Suns teams always struggled defensively even with Marion. Both could guard multiple positions, but Draymond was better at defending bigs.

He was on some elite defenses when Kidd was there, but I think that had more to do with Jason.

[nayte]

You guys are nuts. Draymond is the better defender. Draymond anchored a bunch of top tier defenses and actually has a DPOY, Marion never even made an All-defensive team (which is weird to say) and those Suns teams always struggled defensively even with Marion. Both could guard multiple positions, but Draymond was better at defending bigs.

So you have Jordan over Pip then on defense?

[warriorfan]

So you have Jordan over Pip then on defense?

:lol

damn

[SouBeachTalents]

Not that it's an unreasonable take, but I'm surprised so many are taking Marion here.

[tpols]

I dont believe Shawn Marion was a better defender than Dray but he damn sure was a way better talent and player. Guy was monster athlete.

[tpols]

Another case where it just depends what you need.

Both CAN play all over but Marion will be better guarding a ball handler on the perimeter and Green will be better guarding big bodies the paint.

Id personally take Green if we’re talking strictly defense altho again it’s kind of apples and oranges because they excel at different things. But it’s not a terribly lopsided comparison IMO. Marion was a very capable individual defender in his own right. But Green just gives you more umph in the paint while still being able to guard stretch bigs effectively.

Eh... Marion's actually bigger than Dray. And way more athletic. He's lucky he plays in the small ball era. Marion played when there were still a bunch of real post centers around.

[Carbine]

Marion might be an inch or two taller than Draymond but Draymond is definitely built better for basketball purposes. He has great strength, and weighs more.

He also plays bigger. Dray has a 7'1 wingspan and Marion 6'10 wingspan.

[1987_Lakers]

So you have Jordan over Pip then on defense?

From 90-93 MJ was the better defender of the two. From '95-'98 it was obvious Pippen had more defensive impact.

Draymond played on some teams with good defenders, but 2022 is a good example of his defensive impact. Curry, Poole, & Klay were not defensive players that year, only player besides Draymond who's defense stood out that year was Wiggins, but the Warriors still had the #1 defense.

That season without Draymond they had a Defensive Rating of 112, which is pretty average.

With Draymond their Defensive Rating was 104.2, which is elite.

Marion didn't have that defensive impact.

[HoopsNY]

You guys are nuts. Draymond is the better defender. Draymond anchored a bunch of top tier defenses and actually has a DPOY, Marion never even made an All-defensive team (which is weird to say) and those Suns teams always struggled defensively even with Marion. Both could guard multiple positions, but Draymond was better at defending bigs.

Not sure if that's a fair assessment as far as Marion's teams are concerned. Look at each year's DRTGs.

PHO '00: 3rd
PHO '01: 2nd
PHO '02: 12th
PHO '03: 11th
PHO '04: 24th
PHO '05: 17th
PHO '06: 16th
PHO '07: 13th
PHO '08: 16th *Marion gets traded here. PHO's DRTG w/Marion was 106.7 and 111.6 without him. They probably finish 13th with him.

In 2009 Miami had a 106.2 DRTG w/Marion and 110.2 without him. They probably finish 8th that season if he remains there the full season.

The wheels had already fallen off by then but I think he did have a positive impact overall even judging by what his teams did with him.

*The first two years are high probably because of Kidd but Marion played a role on those teams as well.

[1987_Lakers]

I dont believe Shawn Marion was a better defender than Dray but he damn sure was a way better talent and player. Guy was monster athlete.

I think his offense is a bit overrated, his efficiency rose significantly once he got to play with Nash then it went back to mediocre when he left Phoenix, wasn't really a playmaker either.

[1987_Lakers]

Not sure if that's a fair assessment as far as Marion's teams are concerned. Look at each year's DRTGs.

PHO '00: 3rd
PHO '01: 2nd
PHO '02: 12th
PHO '03: 11th
PHO '04: 24th
PHO '05: 17th
PHO '06: 16th
PHO '07: 13th
PHO '08: 16th *Marion gets traded here. PHO's DRTG w/Marion was 106.7 and 111.6 without him. They probably finish 13th with him.

In 2009 Miami had a 106.2 DRTG w/Marion and 110.2 without him. They probably finish 8th that season if he remains there the full season.

The wheels had already fallen off by then but I think he did have a positive impact overall even judging by what his teams did with him.

Not close to the impact Draymond had from the 2022 numbers I just posted.

[Carbine]

I would rather have Draymond as my #3 guy than Marion. Neither are clear #2 guys on a true contender.

Draymond gives the team an edge, an attitude and swag that Marion doesn't provide. Also a much much better passer, he can make PG type passes in the half court. Better defensive anchor.

"Way better player" as the troll says would be putting all of the emphasis on PPG and disregarding everything else.

[HoopsNY]

Not close to the impact Draymond had from the 2022 numbers I just posted.

Yea I understand that. Though one counter to that would be Draymond's impact in 2020. They lose KD and Klay, and with Dray, they had a 114.3 DRTG, 115.3 without him.

I'm not doubting Dray's impact here. I'm just saying that Marion was also impactful and his teams being bad defensively isn't exactly true.

[SouBeachTalents]

I would rather have Draymond as my #3 guy than Marion. Neither are clear #2 guys on a true contender.

Draymond gives the team an edge, an attitude and swag that Marion doesn't provide. Also a much much better passer, he can make PG type passes in the half court. Better defensive anchor.

"Way better player" as the troll says would be putting all of the emphasis on PPG and disregarding everything else.
Agreed with everything here. Marion is a better scorer but legitimately had no playmaking ability. People can debate how effective Dray would be outside of the Warriors, but imo 2016 Dray was better and more impactful than Marion ever was.

Claiming Marion is way, way better is complete hyperbole.

[Norcaliblunt]

Marion vs Iggy is the more interesting debate IMO.

And then Dray vs Diaw based just on skill set and pure talent obviously not careers.

[tpols]

From 90-93 MJ was the better defender of the two. From '95-'98 it was obvious Pippen had more defensive impact.

Draymond played on some teams with good defenders, but 2022 is a good example of his defensive impact. Curry, Poole, & Klay were not defensive players that year, only player besides Draymond who's defense stood out that year was Wiggins, but the Warriors still had the #1 defense.

That season without Draymond they had a Defensive Rating of 112, which is pretty average.

With Draymond their Defensive Rating was 104.2, which is elite.

Marion didn't have that defensive impact.

Looney, Wiggins, Klay, and Curry are all statistically plus defenders. GPII and Otto Porter too. With Wiggins being extremely talented and Klay has always been an intelligent defender. Looney as well. Curry has a stereotype about him he isn't a good defender but every single advanced metric says he is.

Marion played with Nash and Amare and worst of all Dantoni... who admitted to not even drilling defense. You can't have a great defense when none of your teammates play defense and your coach doesn't even coach defense.

We saw old Marion with old Kidd lock dudes up in the 2011 playoffs to a very strong degree. Great defense involves defensive teammates.

[Norcaliblunt]

Looney, Wiggins, Klay, and Curry are all statistically plus defenders. GPII and Otto Porter too. With Wiggins being extremely talented and Klay has always been an intelligent defender. Looney as well. Curry has a stereotype about him he isn't a good defender but every single advanced metric says he is.

Marion played with Nash and Amare and worst of all Dantoni... who admitted to not even drilling defense. You can't have a great defense when none of your teammates play defense and your coach doesn't even coach defense.

We saw old Marion with old Kidd lock dudes up in the 2011 playoffs to a very strong degree. Great defense involves defensive teammates.

If I remember correctly Phoenix in 06 when Amare was out had a top 10 defense while running a front court of Marion, Diaw, Kurt Thomas along with Raja Bell in the back court. Then Thomas went down and the defense suffered.

As crazy as it sounds that team may have been better without Amare, they definitely were defensively, and if Kurt Thomas doesn’t get hurt they win the chip that year. They came close to a finals appearance running Diaw at center for long stretches.

[tpols]

I think his offense is a bit overrated, his efficiency rose significantly once he got to play with Nash then it went back to mediocre when he left Phoenix, wasn't really a playmaker either.

Yea he was a rebounder, scorer, athlete, defender... the Matrix was the nickname. Dray in the warriors last ring averaged like 7 ppg. They used to call him the triple single. Marion could hang 20/10 on you in his sleep while playing the best D on the whole team. They're different players but prime Shawn Marion had way more talent than dray. Old heads would know.

[tpols]

If I remember correctly Phoenix in 06 when Amare was out had a top 10 defense while running a front court of Marion, Diaw, Kurt Thomas along with Raja Bell in the back court. Then Thomas went down and the defense suffered.

As crazy as it sounds that team may have been better without Amare, they definitely were defensively, and if Kurt Thomas doesn’t get hurt they win the chip that year. They came close to a finals appearance running Diaw at center for long stretches.

I feel like the biggest problem was dantoni. His style made for great offense but poor defense. Still was probably good enough to win stern screwed them in 2007. Amare had the tool box to be a very good defender if he was coached into it by like... Larry Brown or something... but he had the opposite of that. His offense was tremendously explosive though. He hung almost 40ppg series on Tim Duncan.

[Im Still Ballin]

Marion might be an inch or two taller than Draymond but Draymond is definitely built better for basketball purposes. He has great strength, and weighs more.

He also plays bigger. Dray has a 7'1 wingspan and Marion 6'10 wingspan.

There's no official measurement for Marion but he's undeniably longer than 6'10". He has a freakish wingspan and standing reach. He's got the Kevin McHale/Nate Thurmond build only in wing format. It wasn't just his quick and high jumping that made him able to defend frontcourt players.

Marion is more in that 7'2" to 7'5" range. Hard to eyeball it but he has the proportions of a guy who's very disproportionately built regarding limb length. Longer than Dray for sure.

Here's Shawn blocking KD's jump shot:

https://i.imgflip.com/8lp67p.gif

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfSFTftMA2ZdcGXk7uXeGLFbnF7hjsV cAebw5NniA6TdFGz9i1IIRWyrdKZa4iaBb7qEI&usqp=CAU

https://l450v.alamy.com/450v/2patm7n/phoenix-suns-shawn-marion-31-blocks-the-shot-of-houston-rockets-yao-ming-right-of-chinaduring-the-first-quarter-of-a-basketball-game-saturday-nov-17-2007-in-houston-ap-photodavid-j-phillip-2patm7n.jpg

[tpols]

There's no official measurement for Marion but he's undeniably longer than 6'10". He has a freakish wingspan and standing reach. He's got the Kevin McHale/Nate Thurmond build only in wing format. It wasn't just his quick and high jumping that made him able to defend frontcourt players.

Marion is more in that 7'2" to 7'5" range. Hard to eyeball it but he has the proportions of a guy who's very disproportionately built regarding limb length. Longer than Dray for sure.

Here's Shawn blocking KD's jump shot:

https://i.imgflip.com/8lp67p.gif

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfSFTftMA2ZdcGXk7uXeGLFbnF7hjsV cAebw5NniA6TdFGz9i1IIRWyrdKZa4iaBb7qEI&usqp=CAU

https://l450v.alamy.com/450v/2patm7n/phoenix-suns-shawn-marion-31-blocks-the-shot-of-houston-rockets-yao-ming-right-of-chinaduring-the-first-quarter-of-a-basketball-game-saturday-nov-17-2007-in-houston-ap-photodavid-j-phillip-2patm7n.jpg

He had such a short neck for his frame. It's like his head sat directly on his shoulders. Dude had the body of somebody approaching 6'11 but the finesse and quickness of a guard.

[FultzNationRISE]

Eh... Marion's actually bigger than Dray. And way more athletic. He's lucky he plays in the small ball era. Marion played when there were still a bunch of real post centers around.

He's taller, but he's not bigger. Dray carries a high amount of body fat for an NBA player.

https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-anthro?SeasonYear=2012-13&sort=WINGSPAN&dir=1

Which gives a big leverage advantage when guys are packed together in the paint.


Marion has a very slim build. That's why he's more explosive and better moving around the perimeter.

https://www.si.com/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_au to:good%2Cw_1200/MTY4MTk5MDAzNTE1MjY2OTQ1/48731468111jpg.jpg
https://www.tristatehomepage.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/92/2023/08/R-1.jpg



Dray's a lot beefier. While still having an 8'9 standing reach, comparable to guys who are normally 3-4 inches taller than him. (Marion also had a long reach)

https://res.cloudinary.com/ybmedia/image/upload/c_crop,h_1123,w_2000,x_0,y_74/c_fill,f_auto,h_1215,q_auto,w_2160/v1/m/e/b/eb79281559106ae00b91e7bed7845ecb9008d25c/mar-24-2024-minneapolis-minnesota-usa-golden.jpg

https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/2370489/draymond-green-grant-williams.jpg?w=1200&f=644f44e786a127a777a1d9978304706c


That's what makes him harder to move around down low. Then the fact he's still mobile enough to play outside the paint effectively is what makes him such a good defensive player.

[Im Still Ballin]

Marion isn't slim, he's long-limbed. There's a difference. He has a broad frame, well-muscled limbs, and a short, thick, and wide neck. The man's built like a machine.

https://prod.services.nbl.com.au/image/nblcdn.com.au/?key=s/screenshot-2024-01-31-at-8.33.13-pm.png&bypass

And i found this great shot showing his freakish length:

https://e1.pxfuel.com/desktop-wallpaper/625/701/desktop-wallpaper-nba-basketball-michael-jordan-shawn-marion-2104x3146-kobe-vs-jordan.jpg

[FultzNationRISE]

Marion isn't slim, he's long-limbed. There's a difference. He has a broad frame, well-muscled limbs, and a short, thick, and wide neck. The man's built like a machine.

https://prod.services.nbl.com.au/image/nblcdn.com.au/?key=s/screenshot-2024-01-31-at-8.33.13-pm.png&bypass

And i found this great shot showing his freakish length:


Compared to Dray his arms are toothpicks. And his torso is clearly narrower.

Im not saying Marion is “Too Small” *holds hand down to the ground* for what his game is, but compared to Green he’s clearly less massive overall. He’s a lighter load to deal with in the paint.

[FKAri]

Dray's a slightly more impactful defender. He's versatile not just in terms of who he can guard but also in terms of how disruptive he is in passing lanes and breaking up plays. Marion was a better on ball defender and a better rim protector as the help defender.

[fsvr54]

Draymond is so overrated. Dude wouldn't even win pickup games at the park against other regular ass grown men. Kevin Hart outshoots this mofo.

[Im Still Ballin]

He had such a short neck for his frame. It's like his head sat directly on his shoulders. Dude had the body of somebody approaching 6'11 but the finesse and quickness of a guard.

Bosh 4" taller but his shoulders only like 1" higher:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG74M1_UEAAYhJr.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

Draymond is so overrated. Dude wouldn't even win pickup games at the park against other regular ass grown men. Kevin Hart outshoots this mofo.


https://youtu.be/XF30M-2Z76w?si=QidrKym_L7UvCWRT

Draymond is Luka Jabbar if he wants to be it at the park. Hes playing organized nba ball with a bunch of other nba guys. Hes not out there to show that. Hes a low end nba scorer. He’s giving 96 to the rec league like all the rest of them.

[999Guy]

Bunch of stupid takes. The only player on par with Draymond Green as far as rim protection statistics for a 6 year stretch from 14-19 was Rudy Gobert.

On top of being smarter, much more of a leader and having a higher motor than Marion. And a pick and roll defensive monster.


Disappointed Draymond dumbed down even his own explanation of his defense - make no mistake Draymond was a rim protecting big like Hakeem or D-Rob as his primary form of impact.

This isn’t some Boris Diaw floor bound sneaky versatile defensive style.

Unbelievable that this is not known on an NBA basketball forum after all these years, all the media coverage on the Warriors teams, and the stats and all the footage.

Completely different caliber of defenders. Especially in the post season.

[Carbine]

I thought it was definitely off when someone above said Marion was a better rim protector but I didn't care to debate it.

Draymond when I was watching the Warriors play a significant amount of time from 2014-2018 was definitely an elite rim protector he just did it in a more obscure way than the traditional guys did it.

[Norcaliblunt]

I feel like the biggest problem was dantoni. His style made for great offense but poor defense. Still was probably good enough to win stern screwed them in 2007. Amare had the tool box to be a very good defender if he was coached into it by like... Larry Brown or something... but he had the opposite of that. His offense was tremendously explosive though. He hung almost 40ppg series on Tim Duncan.


Yeah D’Antoni is a stubborn coach who runs a short rotation that eventually wears guys down. He also wants to win his own way while making no adjustments like he’s trying to prove something.

Rumor was Kerr as GM wanted to bring in Thibbs to be an assistant to work on defense. Dantoni vetoed that and eventually left.

As for Amare, he was a great player but the Suns should have kept Marion and traded Stoudemire for Garnett. That team could’ve been a top defensive team.

Imagine that Suns team with Mike D coaching offense, Thibbs running the defense, Garnett and Nash anchoring and holding down both sides of the floor?

[j3lademaster]

Bunch of stupid takes. The only player on par with Draymond Green as far as rim protection statistics for a 6 year stretch from 14-19 was Rudy Gobert.

On top of being smarter, much more of a leader and having a higher motor than Marion. And a pick and roll defensive monster.


Disappointed Draymond dumbed down even his own explanation of his defense - make no mistake Draymond was a rim protecting big like Hakeem or D-Rob as his primary form of impact.

This isn’t some Boris Diaw floor bound sneaky versatile defensive style.

Unbelievable that this is not known on an NBA basketball forum after all these years, all the media coverage on the Warriors teams, and the stats and all the footage.

Completely different caliber of defenders. Especially in the post season.Those comparisons are going too far. Guys like Hakeem, Drob, Dwight can carry mediocre defensive squads to be top 5 defenses, the season Steph was out and Draymond was called on more than ever he lead a bottom 5 defense. I can’t see any of the previously mentioned guys doing that in their primes.

[Im Still Ballin]

Was Draymond even the best rim protector from 2013-2016? Bogut was really good and often forgotten. It's crazy to think that they had both of them out there together. Crazy defensive frontcourt duo.

[Reggie43]

Draymond having a higher motor than Marion? They call the guy the "Matrix" for a reason...

[GimmeThat]

Draymond fouls a lot more

[nayte]

From 90-93 MJ was the better defender of the two. From '95-'98 it was obvious Pippen had more defensive impact.

Draymond played on some teams with good defenders, but 2022 is a good example of his defensive impact. Curry, Poole, & Klay were not defensive players that year, only player besides Draymond who's defense stood out that year was Wiggins, but the Warriors still had the #1 defense.

That season without Draymond they had a Defensive Rating of 112, which is pretty average.

With Draymond their Defensive Rating was 104.2, which is elite.

Marion didn't have that defensive impact.

I'm a bit late but very fair take and I can agree with it

[BarberSchool]

Bosh 4" taller but his shoulders only like 1" higher:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG74M1_UEAAYhJr.jpgand Marion’s shoulders are much much wider.