mediocre but versatile, or simply the best?

[3ba11]

Duncan is better than lebron defensively for the same reason that Jordan was - he plays better defense than lebron despite being less versatile.

this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball but Jordan is the best at it.

I remember when lebron was asked to guard David West in Game 1 of the ECF - West destroyed Lebron so obviously and severely that Spolestra had to change the game plan for the rest of the series.

Ultimately, Lebron doesn't play great defense on bigs or point guards, while being incapable of defending shooting guards off screens like Klay, and also letting opposing SF's win FMVP four times or letting Jamison outplay him.

So despite Lebron's perceived versatility, he doesn't play great defense on any position, while Jordan played the best defense on his assignments - again, this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball but Jordan is the best at it.

[beasted]

Team basketball is a game of match-ups. Pointing out a player that wasn't the best match against X player defensively is dumb. It's as dumb as calling out Jordan for 91 against Magic. Jordan was a good defensive matchup in that series and they still would have likely beaten the Lakers if he continued as the primary defender, but Pippen was an even better one in the team concept. So as for David West, that was a pointless red herring.

Here's the thing.... LeBron can play great defense, but I think not getting serious consideration for DPOY demotivated him to where he'd rather coast and turn it on for moments at a time.

[FKAri]

While it's true that LeBron James may not always excel defensively in every matchup, it's important to consider the broader context of his defensive impact. LeBron's versatility allows him to guard multiple positions effectively, providing invaluable flexibility for his teams defensively. While he may face challenges against certain opponents, such as bigger forwards or quick guards coming off screens, his ability to switch onto different players and disrupt passing lanes often goes unnoticed. Furthermore, LeBron's defensive contributions extend beyond individual matchups; his basketball IQ and court awareness enable him to make timely rotations, help defense, and provide rim protection when needed. Additionally, LeBron's size, strength, and athleticism make him a formidable defender in transition and in one-on-one situations. While Michael Jordan may have been renowned for his defensive tenacity and consistency, LeBron's impact on the defensive end cannot be discounted, especially considering his ability to elevate his team's overall defensive performance through his leadership and communication on the court. Ultimately, while LeBron may not always be perfect defensively, his versatility and overall defensive impact make him a crucial asset for any team's defensive scheme.

[3ba11]

Team basketball is a game of match-ups. Pointing out a player that wasn't the best match against X player defensively is dumb. It's as dumb as calling out Jordan for 91 against Magic. Jordan was a good defensive matchup in that series and they still would have likely beaten the Lakers if he continued as the primary defender, but Pippen was an even better one in the team concept. So as for David West, that was a pointless red herring.

Here's the thing.... LeBron can play great defense, but I think not getting serious consideration for DPOY demotivated him to where he'd rather coast and turn it on for moments at a time.


don't post itt if you're going to lie

MJ was the primary defender on Magic for the entire series except Game 2

Specifically, Jordan guarded Magic for the entirety of Games 1, 4 and 5, except the last 4 minutes of game 4... Then he defended Magic for the 2nd half and OT of Game 3.

Overall, Jordan guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters plus the OT in Game 3, which is nearly 75% of possessions in the series - this is among the most that anyone will defend another player in ANY series.. Pippen's spot-duty in the Game 2 blowout was overkill and unnecessary because the game was a massive blowout caused by Jordan's goat offense (15-18 vs max defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load)

but carry on being wrong about history because you've been brainwashed by Klutch Sports...

Although to be fair, the narrative that Pippen was a primary defender on Magic has been misreported ever since it happened - the media wanted to give Pippen credit for SOMETHING, even though it was MJ that carried the load on both ends (primary defender on Magic while carrying scoring load)

[SouBeachTalents]

Are you ever going to talk about a different subject :lol

[3ba11]

While it's true that LeBron James may not always excel defensively in every matchup, it's important to consider the broader context of his defensive impact. LeBron's versatility allows him to guard multiple positions effectively, providing invaluable flexibility for his teams defensively. While he may face challenges against certain opponents, such as bigger forwards or quick guards coming off screens, his ability to switch onto different players and disrupt passing lanes often goes unnoticed. Furthermore, LeBron's defensive contributions extend beyond individual matchups; his basketball IQ and court awareness enable him to make timely rotations, help defense, and provide rim protection when needed. Additionally, LeBron's size, strength, and athleticism make him a formidable defender in transition and in one-on-one situations. While Michael Jordan may have been renowned for his defensive tenacity and consistency, LeBron's impact on the defensive end cannot be discounted, especially considering his ability to elevate his team's overall defensive performance through his leadership and communication on the court. Ultimately, while LeBron may not always be perfect defensively, his versatility and overall defensive impact make him a crucial asset for any team's defensive scheme.


Most of what you said is vastly overstated and the results confirm that - Lebron's teams usually have underwhelming defenses, records, and results compared to the expectation.

Furthermore, Shawn Marion or Draymond or even Vanderbilt are more versatile than MJ on defense but none are considered on Jordan or Duncan's level defensively because Jordan/Duncan played great defense, despite being less versatile.

Finally, Lebron has horrible leadership defensively and doesn't elevate teammates to play great defense like Jordan did... teammates push HIM into the right defensive assignments like Kuzma did - this was a microcosm of Lebron's lack of focus, determination and IQ on defense compared to arguably the GOAT defender (MJ).

[GimmeThat]

OP devotes his life coming up with a way where the box score says 100 3PM 0TRB 0AST 0STL 0BLK, and believes with his full heart that this is the purpose of a basketball forum

[warriorfan]

Jason Terry

[AussieSteve]

Plenty of players, including Jordan, have been better one-on-one perimeter defenders than LeBron. Having said this, peak Lebron could shut down elite scorers better than most. He was certainly one of the best perimeter defenders in the league in his prime.

But here's the thing... LeBron might be the best transition defender ever. He might also be the best help defender ever.

[Wardell Curry]

LeBron James and Michael Jordan are two titans of basketball, each leaving an indelible mark on the sport and its culture. While the debate over who is the greatest of all time (GOAT) rages on, there is a compelling case to be made for LeBron James as the superior player. LeBron's versatility, longevity, and impact both on and off the court distinguish him in ways that surpass Jordan's legendary career.

Firstly, LeBron James possesses an unparalleled versatility that sets him apart from Michael Jordan. Standing at 6'9" and weighing 250 pounds, LeBron is a physical specimen with the agility of a guard and the strength of a forward. His ability to play and excel at multiple positions—point guard, small forward, power forward—underscores his adaptability and basketball IQ. Unlike Jordan, who primarily played as a shooting guard, LeBron's versatility allows him to control the game from various positions, making him a nightmare matchup for any opponent. This versatility extends beyond scoring; LeBron is also a gifted playmaker and rebounder, consistently ranking among the league leaders in assists and rebounds. His all-around game transcends Jordan's scoring prowess, making him a more complete player.

Secondly, LeBron's longevity in the NBA is a testament to his dedication to the game and his exceptional physical conditioning. Despite entering the league straight out of high school at the age of 18, LeBron has shown no signs of slowing down well into his 30s. In his 20th season, he continues to perform at an elite level, defying the typical decline associated with aging athletes. This longevity has allowed LeBron to accumulate impressive statistical achievements, surpassing Jordan in several career milestones such as points, assists, and rebounds. While Jordan's career was illustrious, it spanned 15 seasons with multiple retirements, whereas LeBron has sustained his excellence over a longer period, further solidifying his claim to the GOAT title.

Moreover, LeBron James's impact extends far beyond the basketball court, cementing his legacy as one of the most influential athletes of all time. Through his philanthropy, activism, and business ventures, LeBron has used his platform to effect positive change in society. He has established charitable foundations, funded educational initiatives, and spoken out on social justice issues, demonstrating a commitment to making a difference off the court. LeBron's impact off the court dwarfs Jordan's, who was primarily focused on his basketball career and endorsements. LeBron's willingness to speak out on social and political issues distinguishes him as a leader both in sports and in the broader community.

In conclusion, LeBron James's versatility, longevity, and impact make him a superior player to Michael Jordan. While Jordan may have set the standard for excellence during his era, LeBron's all-around game, sustained success, and off-court contributions elevate him to the status of the greatest basketball player of all time. As the debate rages on, one thing remains clear: LeBron James's legacy transcends basketball, leaving an indelible mark on the sport and society as a whole.

And to the detractors who doubt LeBron's greatness, as they say, "3ball is an idiot."

[Wardell Curry]

While it's true that Tim Duncan was an exceptional defender, particularly in terms of positioning and rim protection, to assert that he was definitively better than LeBron James defensively is debatable. LeBron's defensive abilities have often been underrated, and his versatility allows him to guard multiple positions effectively.

Comparing LeBron's defense to Jordan's is also a complex matter. While Jordan was undoubtedly one of the greatest defenders of all time, it's important to recognize that their playing styles and defensive assignments were different. Jordan primarily guarded opposing shooting guards, while LeBron has been tasked with defending players across multiple positions, from point guards to power forwards. This versatility, rather than being a detriment to his defense, showcases LeBron's adaptability and basketball IQ.

Regarding specific instances like LeBron guarding David West in a game, it's essential to remember that basketball is a team sport. Individual matchups and moments of struggle happen to every player, even the best ones. It's unfair to judge LeBron's entire defensive prowess based on isolated incidents.

Furthermore, LeBron's defensive impact extends beyond one-on-one matchups. His ability to read passing lanes, rotate on defense, and provide help defense has been crucial to his teams' success. Additionally, his leadership on the defensive end often motivates his teammates to elevate their own defensive efforts.

As for LeBron's performances in the NBA Finals, basketball is a team game, and the outcome of a series cannot be solely attributed to one player's defense. Finals MVP awards and individual matchups are influenced by various factors, including team strategies, matchups, and overall team performance.

In conclusion, while Jordan's defensive prowess is legendary, LeBron's versatility and impact on the defensive end cannot be overlooked. LeBron's ability to guard multiple positions, contribute across the stat sheet, and elevate his teammates' defensive efforts make him a formidable defender in his own right. It's unfair to discredit LeBron's defensive abilities based on selective instances or comparisons to Jordan, as both players excelled defensively in different ways.

[Wardell Curry]

Most of what you said is vastly overstated and the results confirm that - Lebron's teams usually have underwhelming defenses, records, and results compared to the expectation.

Furthermore, Shawn Marion or Draymond or even Vanderbilt are more versatile than MJ on defense but none are considered on Jordan or Duncan's level defensively because Jordan/Duncan played great defense, despite being less versatile.

Finally, Lebron has horrible leadership defensively and doesn't elevate teammates to play great defense like Jordan did... teammates push HIM into the right defensive assignments like Kuzma did - this was a microcosm of Lebron's lack of focus, determination and IQ on defense compared to arguably the GOAT defender (MJ).

While it's true that LeBron James's teams have occasionally faced challenges defensively, it's essential to consider the broader context of team dynamics, coaching strategies, and roster compositions when evaluating defensive performances. Basketball is a team sport, and defensive success relies on collective effort, communication, and cohesion among teammates.

Comparing LeBron's defensive versatility to players like Shawn Marion, Draymond Green, or Vanderbilt is valid in terms of individual skill sets. However, it's important to recognize that defensive impact goes beyond versatility alone. LeBron's ability to guard multiple positions and contribute in various aspects of the game, including rim protection and help defense, adds significant value to his team's defensive schemes.

Regarding leadership on the defensive end, LeBron's impact may not always be as overt as Jordan's, but that doesn't diminish his effectiveness as a leader. Leadership manifests in different ways, and LeBron's ability to communicate, organize defensive assignments, and set an example through his own effort and intensity shouldn't be overlooked. Additionally, attributing defensive lapses solely to LeBron overlooks the collective responsibility of the team and coaching staff in implementing defensive strategies.

As for individual incidents like Kyle Kuzma directing defensive assignments, it's important to avoid drawing sweeping conclusions from isolated moments. Every team experiences communication breakdowns or lapses in focus at times, but it's unfair to attribute them solely to LeBron without considering the broader context of team dynamics and communication.

In summary, while LeBron James's defensive contributions may not always receive the same recognition as Jordan's, it's unfair to dismiss his impact based on selective instances or comparisons. LeBron's versatility, defensive IQ, and leadership qualities contribute significantly to his team's defensive efforts, and evaluating his defensive prowess requires considering the complexities of team dynamics and collective responsibility.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron finished second for DPOY twice, and he definitely should've won it one of those times. Bron at his peak was a great defender. Even later when he didn't play as much defense in the regular season, he turned it up in the playoffs and was elite again.

[Wardell Curry]

Lebron finished second for DPOY twice, and he definitely should've won it one of those times. Bron at his peak was a great defender. Even later when he didn't play as much defense in the regular season, he turned it up in the playoffs and was elite again.

Absolutely, LeBron James's defensive capabilities cannot be understated, especially considering his impressive finishes in the Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY) voting. Finishing second for the DPOY award twice is a testament to his defensive prowess and impact on that end of the floor.

During his peak years, LeBron showcased his ability to dominate defensively, often guarding the opposing team's best player and making crucial stops when needed most. His combination of size, athleticism, basketball IQ, and commitment to winning made him a force to be reckoned with on defense.

Even in later stages of his career when he may not have been as active defensively in the regular season, LeBron consistently elevated his game on defense come playoff time. His intensity, focus, and willingness to take on tough defensive assignments were evident in critical moments, helping lead his teams to success in the postseason.

LeBron's defensive versatility and impact extend beyond individual accolades or statistics. His ability to guard multiple positions, provide help defense, and communicate effectively on the court have been instrumental in his teams' defensive schemes and overall success.

In conclusion, LeBron James's defensive contributions throughout his career, including his impressive finishes in DPOY voting and his playoff performances, underscore his greatness on both ends of the floor. Whether at his peak or later in his career, LeBron's defensive prowess has consistently been a key factor in his teams' success.

[GimmeThat]

And to the detractors who doubt LeBron's greatness, as they say, "3ball is an idiot."

even a Curry stan agrees it's easy to defend Lebron, because when a lion kills, it's the jackal that benefits

[Manny98]

There's nothing mediocre about LeBrons game he's a jack of all trades master of everything

[FKAri]

Most of what you said is vastly overstated and the results confirm that - Lebron's teams usually have underwhelming defenses, records, and results compared to the expectation.

Furthermore, Shawn Marion or Draymond or even Vanderbilt are more versatile than MJ on defense but none are considered on Jordan or Duncan's level defensively because Jordan/Duncan played great defense, despite being less versatile.

Finally, Lebron has horrible leadership defensively and doesn't elevate teammates to play great defense like Jordan did... teammates push HIM into the right defensive assignments like Kuzma did - this was a microcosm of Lebron's lack of focus, determination and IQ on defense compared to arguably the GOAT defender (MJ).

While it's understandable to have criticisms of LeBron James's defensive impact and leadership compared to players like Michael Jordan and Tim Duncan, it's important to approach these assertions with a nuanced perspective. First, attributing LeBron's team's underwhelming defensive performances solely to him overlooks the complexity of team dynamics and defensive strategies. Basketball is a team sport, and defensive success often relies on collective effort and communication.

LeBron may not always be the most vocal or demonstrative leader on defense but his basketball IQ and ability to read the game contribute to his team's defensive schemes. Additionally, while players like Shawn Marion, Draymond Green, or Vanderbilt may possess greater defensive versatility than Jordan, it's essential to recognize that versatility is just one aspect of defensive excellence. Jordan and Duncan's defensive greatness extended beyond versatility; they were also known for their defensive instincts, positioning, and ability to make game-changing plays in crucial moments.

Finally, criticizing LeBron's leadership defensively overlooks instances where he has elevated his teammates' defensive performances, such as his time with the Miami Heat or the Cleveland Cavaliers. While LeBron may not always be the primary motivator on defense, his presence and example can inspire his teammates to elevate their defensive efforts. In conclusion, while LeBron James may not match the defensive legacies of players like Michael Jordan or Tim Duncan, it's essential to acknowledge his contributions to team defense and recognize the multifaceted factors that influence defensive success in basketball.

[3ba11]

peak Lebron could shut down elite scorers better than most.






2011 ECF

DERRICK ROSE....... 120 total shot attempts.... 16 defended by Lebron (13%)


lmao

Lebron barely guarded Rose, which doesn't compare to Jordan being the primary defender for the entire series on Magic, Drexler and Miller, or full games on Isiah or Payton, while holding them to poor shooting and below their normal PPG.

Furthermore, Bosh and Wade averaged 24 and 19 in that series respectively, so Lebron had great energy because he didn't have to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) like MJ always did.. It's remarkable that MJ played the best defense despite facing max defensive attention on offense (carrying scoring load), whereas Lebron was relatively carried on offense and barely guarded Rose... It's night and day.

Ultimately, guys like MJ or Duncan are better than lebron defensively because they play better defense, despite being less versatile... this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball but Jordan is the best at it.

[AussieSteve]

2011 ECF

DERRICK ROSE....... 120 total shot attempts.... 16 defended by Lebron (13%)


lmao

Lebron barely guarded Rose, which doesn't compare to Jordan being the primary defender for the entire series on Magic, Drexler and Miller, or full games on Isiah or Payton, while holding them to poor shooting and below their normal PPG.

Furthermore, Bosh and Wade averaged 24 and 19 in that series respectively, so Lebron had great energy because he didn't have to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) like MJ always did.. It's remarkable that MJ played the best defense despite facing max defensive attention on offense (carrying scoring load), whereas Lebron was relatively carried on offense and barely guarded Rose... It's night and day.

Ultimately, guys like MJ or Duncan are better than lebron defensively because they play better defense, despite being less versatile... this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball but Jordan is the best at it.


When someone has the most points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals of any player from either team in a finals series, do you think that they are carrying a smaller or larger load than someone who only leads the series in points?

[Manny98]

MJ isn't even the GOAT scorer

KD, Luka,Curry and LeBron have all been able to match MJs volume yet on way higher efficiency

[3ba11]

MJ isn't even the GOAT scorer

KD, Luka,Curry and LeBron have all been able to match MJs volume yet on way higher efficiency


bolded above is pure nonsense and couldn't be further from the truth.. stop posting

Jordan averaged 25.1 shots per game for his playoff career compared to 20.6 for Lebron, and MJ is the only player in history to win titles while using the most possessions in the league (usage leader).

Furthermore, Lebron never had to carry the scoring load in the Finals (defeat max defensive attention) and he rarely had to carry the scoring load on his title runs, so his shooting efficiency is inflated compared to Jordan, who always defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load).. However, shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of efficiency per possession (ortg), where Jordan's is higher due to far lower turnovers.

[3ba11]

When someone has the most points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals of any player from either team in a finals series, do you think that they are carrying a smaller or larger load than someone who only leads the series in points?


GOAT defense + 41 ppg is a bigger load, while defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level)... you're citing 1 series as if many guys haven't had goat-level one-offs.

Lebron led categories by 0.1, while MJ might trail a category by 0.1 - who cares - statistical anomalies - Lebron never CARRIED important categories like carrying the scoring load, which means defeating max defensive attention.. By virtue of having an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, Lebron didn't have to defeat max defensive attention and therefore had an easy load compared to MJ.

Btw, imagine how much energy it takes to shoot 54% while playing the best defense in the league (DPOY) and getting 35/6/6 on offense - and still shoot 54% - this requires infinite energy - MJ had the most energy of any player ever.

[sdot_thadon]

When someone has the most points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals of any player from either team in a finals series, do you think that they are carrying a smaller or larger load than someone who only leads the series in points?

He gonna duck the hell out of this one.

[AussieSteve]

GOAT defense + 41 ppg is a bigger load, while defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level)... you're citing 1 series as if many guys haven't had goat-level one-offs.

Lebron led categories by 0.1, while MJ might trail a category by 0.1 - who cares - statistical anomalies - Lebron never CARRIED important categories like carrying the scoring load, which means defeating max defensive attention.. By virtue of having an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, Lebron didn't have to defeat max defensive attention and therefore had an easy load compared to MJ.

Btw, imagine how much energy it takes to shoot 54% while playing the best defense in the league (DPOY) and getting 35/6/6 on offense - and still shoot 54% - this requires infinite energy - MJ had the most energy of any player ever.


Except that LeBron has led his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks across entire playoff runs multiple times throughout his career. Including thoughout a championship run in 2016.

He led his team in at least 4 of these 5 stats, every post season from 2008 to 2020, except 2011.

Here are his post season team ranks each year.

Year: pts,trb,ast,stl,blk
2006: 1,1,1,2,2
2007: 1,2,1,1,3
2008: 1,1,1,1,1
2009: 1,1,1 1,3
2010: 1,1,1,1,1
2011: 2,2,1,1,3
2012: 1,1,1,1,2
2013: 1,1,1,1,4
2014: 1,1,1,1,3
2015: 1,1,1,1,3
2016: 1,1,1,1,1
2017: 1,2,1,1,1
2018: 1,2,1,1,1
2020: 1,1,1,1,2
2021: 1,2,1,1,5
2023: 1,2,1,2,2

GOAT load carrying. Jordan could never!

[AussieSteve]

Except that LeBron has led his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks across entire playoff runs multiple times throughout his career. Including thoughout a championship run in 2016.

He led his team in at least 4 of these 5 stats, every post season from 2008 to 2020, except 2011.

Here are his post season team ranks each year.

Year: pts,trb,ast,stl,blk
2006: 1,1,1,2,2
2007: 1,2,1,1,3
2008: 1,1,1,1,1
2009: 1,1,1 1,3
2010: 1,1,1,1,1
2011: 2,2,1,1,3
2012: 1,1,1,1,2
2013: 1,1,1,1,4
2014: 1,1,1,1,3
2015: 1,1,1,1,3
2016: 1,1,1,1,1
2017: 1,2,1,1,1
2018: 1,2,1,1,1
2020: 1,1,1,1,2
2021: 1,2,1,1,5
2023: 1,2,1,2,2

GOAT load carrying. Jordan could never!

Just noticed in the above that LeBron led his team through the playoffs in points, rebounds, assists and steals in all four of his championship runs!

I'd be intrigued to know if anyone else had even done this once!

[sdot_thadon]

Just noticed in the above that LeBron led his team through the playoffs in points, rebounds, assists and steals in all four of his championship runs!

I'd be intrigued to know if anyone else had even done this once!

With all the Lebron talk that goes on here, that's a new one I didn't know about. Goat stuff.