Murray destroys Jokic's goat case for same reason everyone else's is destroyed

[3ba11]

Murray & Porter with 24 ppg and "taking over" & isolation "that guy" game-winners is too much help compared to Jordan, who always carried the scoring & clutch load.

Everyone in history needed teammates to carry equal scoring loads and "take over", except MJ, who always won without elite producers or teammates "taking over".. only MJ took over for 6 chips - that's why he's goat

[Akeem34TheDream]

:roll:

[FKAri]

The fact that Scottie Pippen could walk unassisted is proof that MJ had WAY TOO MUCH help.

[j3lademaster]

Jokic should have had 8 or 9 ft's for 7+ more points and Murray's gamewinner wouldnt have been needed. Or if Murray played to his standards this series.

[SouBeachTalents]

OP will be here in the 2030's making these threads about that eras GOAT.

[elementally morale]

It took you long turning from LeBron to Jokic as the target but it's finally happening.

As for your 'take', Pippen was a better basketball player than Murray. I don't know who you are comparing Porter to but it it's his shooting the Bulls had some great outside shooters. Anyway, if you try comparing the squads and tell us with a straight face that this Nuggets roster is better than a 90s Bulls roster if you take away the best players... that would be an 'interestng' take.

[SouBeachTalents]

It took you long turning from LeBron to Jokic as the target but it's finally happening.

As for your 'take', Pippen was a better basketball player than Murray. I don't know who you are comparing Porter to but it it's his shooting the Bulls had some great outside shooters. Anyway, if you try comparing the squads and tell us with a straight face that this Nuggets roster is better than a 90s Bulls roster if you take away the best players... that would be an 'interestng' take.
No chance they come even CLOSE to winning 55 games without Jokic :lol

[j3lademaster]

OP will be here in the 2030's making these threads about that eras GOAT.Wemby averaged 28/17/7/3/5 this series, but his teammate averaged 26 ppg with optimal navigation efficiency and offball passing, proving he can't do it without an equal scoring partner. Only MJ has won a ring averaging 10+ more ppg than his second option, and Wemby-ball can only turn teammates into spot up shooters instead of playmakers.

[tpols]

Jordan's teammates were trash relative to today but so were his opponents teammates. So it evens out.

The 80s and 90s were so damn weak compared to today. Bunch of dudes dribbling only right handed getting sagged off 10 feet on every play. That wouldn't fly today. They'd get avalanched from deep.

[tontoz]

Youtube is filled with vids of Jokic making game winning shots. :facepalm

[White Hammer]

It was only a matter of time before you betrayed the Jokic fam. I see you. Can’t wait for the Jokic=Rik Smits thread.

[StrongLurk]

MJ only being dominant in the 90's destroys his GOAT case. It's that simple.

[Duffy Pratt]

No chance they come even CLOSE to winning 55 games without Jokic :lol

Probably closer to 40 wins, unless they tanked.

[ImKobe]

Murray has bailed out Jokic so many times in big moments tbh it's not a bad argument. The GOAT should also be the closer on his team when it's winning time. Jokic has made clutch shots himself sure but if he ever wins enough titles this would be used against him.

[ShawkFactory]

Uh oh.

Looks like we have a new target :lol

[tpols]

Murray has bailed out Jokic so many times in big moments tbh it's not a bad argument. The GOAT should also be the closer on his team when it's winning time. Jokic has made clutch shots himself sure but if he ever wins enough titles this would be used against him.

Would be retarded to do that. I'm a huge Kobe fan and his biggest weakness and DOC (drug of choice) was glory.

Jokic will J you no problem but he can also allow his teammates to have the shine. And that's probably why he's the GOAT.

[elementally morale]

Murray has bailed out Jokic so many times in big moments tbh it's not a bad argument. The GOAT should also be the closer on his team when it's winning time. Jokic has made clutch shots himself sure but if he ever wins enough titles this would be used against him.

It won't. Kerr and Paxson are not used against Jordan. Horry is not used against Shaq or Duncan.

[elementally morale]

Would be retarded to do that. I'm a huge Kobe fan and his biggest weakness and DOC (drug of choice) was glory.

Jokic will J you no problem but he can also allow his teammates to have the shine. And that's probably why he's the GOAT.

It's their plan. Murray tries these shots and if there is zero opening he passes to Jokic in the last 2 seconds. Jokic does hit many of those. It is just an end of shotclock situation for them, regardless of the time it happens in the game.

[ImKobe]

Would be retarded to do that. I'm a huge Kobe fan and his biggest weakness and DOC (drug of choice) was glory.

Jokic will J you no problem but he can also allow his teammates to have the shine. And that's probably why he's the GOAT.

I mean that's not really true with Kobe. If you check the Playoffs clutch metrics I'm pretty sure he averaged more assists than Lebron in like last 5 or last 2 minutes of the game. Thinks about the iconic lob to Shaq to clinch their first Finals appearance even though KB was cooking Scottie 1 on 1 in that 4th quarter to get them the lead. Think about the Artest shot or when Kobe would pass up shots for Horry when Horry missed that wide open 3 against the Spurs when they made that huge 4th quarter comeback on the road, Kobe trusted him in that moment even though Horry was ice cold in the series in '03. Fisher made some of his biggest shots in the POs/Finals off Kobe's passes.




It won't. Kerr and Paxson are not used against Jordan. Horry is not used against Shaq or Duncan.

Jordan made the majority of clutch shots for his teams though and always led them in scoring in every series for his career. Sure, role players made some open 3s when they doubled Jordan but that's not the same as having an elite closer carry your squad in crunch time.

I'm not saying that disqualifies Jokic from ever being able to have the "GOAT" title, but it's something that people would use against him if he ever got to that point.

[3ba11]

As for your 'take', Pippen was a better basketball player than Murray.





Murray is a better scorer, passer, clutch player, tougher and a leader - for these reasons, it's close at a minimum and Murray is almost certainly a better playoff performer.

Pippen never played above a peak Iguodala or Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight (ring count) inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

[ShawkFactory]

Murray is a better scorer, passer, clutch player, tougher and a leader - for these reasons, it's close at a minimum and Murray is almost certainly a better playoff performer.

Pippen never played above a peak Iguodala or Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight (ring count) inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

Dude Murray is probably not a top 20 player in the league at the moment. So if he IS better than Pippen, you’re saying either Pippen wasn’t a top 20 player in the league or that players are just better now.

I know which way you’ll choose to go here but neither is a good option for you :lol

[tontoz]

For the series here were the averages:

Jokic 28/16/10 65% TS
Murray 24/7/5 48.6% TS

Pretty big gap there. Shout out to MPJ who averaged 23/8 with a 60% TS. He wasn't good in the playoffs last year.

[Wardell Curry]

Basketball isn't 1 on 1. Murray is better at getting an open look than Jokic because of the nature of their body types. Murray is a guard that is fast and can juke people and consistently create space.

If you think that the only/determining factor on who the greatest basketball player of all time is the ability to create open looks and hit shots at the end of games, I would say you don't have an understanding of the fact that the game is played 5 on 5 and your overall opinion on anything basketball related is invalid.

This is the mindset of the most casual of casual basketball fans and you can find it in droves.

[ShawkFactory]

Basketball isn't 1 on 1. Murray is better at getting an open look than Jokic because of the nature of their body types. Murray is a guard that is fast and can juke people and consistently create space.

If you think that the only/determining factor on who the greatest basketball player of all time is the ability to create open looks and hit shots at the end of games, I would say you don't have an understanding of the fact that the game is played 5 on 5 and your overall opinion on anything basketball related is invalid.

This is the mindset of the most casual of casual basketball fans and you can find it in droves.

This is true. But also, isn't it implicitly silly to decide that a basketball player can't be on a certain level because of something his teammate does? IF Murray is better than Pippen was (he isn't), what does that have to do with either Jokic or Jordan?

If you actually think about it that makes no sense.

[hateraid]

I doubt if Jokic "retired" from the Nuggets that the Nuggets would win only 2 less games be in the conference semis, and Murray would be top 3 in MVP voting.... just saying

[3ba11]

Dude Murray is probably not a top 20 player in the league at the moment.





Wow what a reach.. Murray's perennial playoff dominance disputes that, while there's always a guy like Murray or Rod Strickland that gets overlooked in the regular season due to untimely injury or other unique circumstance.. And without this distorted media accolade, your claim is easily false based on actual performance (passing, scoring, shooting, clutch, leadership, winning), particularly in the playoffs and franchise-making moments.

[StrongLurk]

For the series here were the averages:

Jokic 28/16/10 65% TS
Murray 24/7/5 48.6% TS

Pretty big gap there. Shout out to MPJ who averaged 23/8 with a 60% TS. He wasn't good in the playoffs last year.

OP doesn't acknowledge players that aren't the 1st or 2nd option...he thinks basketball is one on one or two on two.

Also OP said he hasn't watched the NBA since 2011 :lol

He's just a massive liar and full of bullshit.

[ShawkFactory]

Wow what a reach.. Murray's perennial playoff dominance disputes that, while there's always a guy like Murray or Rod Strickland that gets overlooked in the regular season due to untimely injury or other unique circumstance.. And without this distorted media accolade, your claim is easily false based on actual performance (passing, scoring, shooting, clutch, leadership, winning), particularly in the playoffs and franchise-making moments.

Shouldn't that winning spotlight elevate Murray though? Uh oh.

Everyone recognizes him for what he is. There are certainly 20 players, or very close to it, that pretty much everyone would take first in a draft over him. Maxey is one of them. He's like Murray but more athletic.

Guys like Kyrie, Brunson, Ant. All ahead.

And of course there are the true top guys who I don't even feel the need to mention.

He's closer to 20 than 10, that's for sure. But you don't watch all of these guys right? So I wouldn't expect you to know.

[NBAGOAT]

Jokic got some good help but he’s a big reason his teammates play well and it was mainly porter on offense. Murray wasn’t good outside clutch time. Also I’ve seen you ding modern stars stats for playing in the spacing era how do you not ding Murray. Also there’s no playoff dominance he had the bubble and 2/4 great series last year lol. 26ppg on 58ts% looks less impressive last playoffs when it’s barely above league average efficiency and 10 guys scored more in the playoffs. When pippen put up 19ppg on 53ts% in 1997 playoffs, that was barely below league average efficiency and he ranked 12th in ppg. Saying Murray is a 1b is worse than saying mchale was 1b to bird because of ppg just being blatantly dishonest.

Also yea jokic needs the help the west is a lot stronger this year. You can’t beat lebron/ad playing really well as a duo by yourself. Jordan never faced a team with 2 locks for all-nba in the first round. Lakers were a conference finals lvl team some years.

Next round wolves have a legit big 3 that fits together(unlike phx) with perfect role players around them and go 7-8 deep. Absolutely destroyed a team that gave denver the toughest time last year. conference finals is okc with their young big 3 Mavs with best duo in league or clips with their big 3 lot of fun. Finally finals is one of the 10 most talented cores of all time. Don’t have the mvp guy but Boston has tatum(all nba lock top 10), jaylen(all star lock borderline all-nba top 20), 2 other all star caliber guys in white and porzingis and a sub all star in jrue who was all star lvl as recently as last year with an underrated bench. No teams had a 5th starter in the same tier as jrue, they’re always role players

[elementally morale]

Basketball isn't 1 on 1. Murray is better at getting an open look than Jokic because of the nature of their body types. Murray is a guard that is fast and can juke people and consistently create space.

If you think that the only/determining factor on who the greatest basketball player of all time is the ability to create open looks and hit shots at the end of games, I would say you don't have an understanding of the fact that the game is played 5 on 5 and your overall opinion on anything basketball related is invalid.

This is the mindset of the most casual of casual basketball fans and you can find it in droves.


Jokic was also wide open at the time Murray took the shot. It was just the usual 2-man game in an end-of-shotclock situation. The score was even and the Nuggets would've had a better chance if there had been OT. Murray opted to take the shot and it's fine. Young Kobe was in this situation with Shaq in e.g. 2000 or 2001 and made some baskets. Shaq was still the greater threat those years. You don't have to take all the big shots in a game that is 5 on 5. The way the Nuggets are playing there is a chance of finding Gordon for a cut or Porter for a 3. An open Jokic (as was the case here). All those shots are good. As was the game winner. The Nuggets didn't play well but they played as a team all series. There was no reason not to do that in this situation.

[Wally450]

So you need to absolutely carry your team and have no help at all in order to be considered a GOAT candidate? Guess that excludes MJ then...

[NBAGOAT]

Wow what a reach.. Murray's perennial playoff dominance disputes that, while there's always a guy like Murray or Rod Strickland that gets overlooked in the regular season due to untimely injury or other unique circumstance.. And without this distorted media accolade, your claim is easily false based on actual performance (passing, scoring, shooting, clutch, leadership, winning), particularly in the playoffs and franchise-making moments.

who's better of jokic, shai, edwards, kawhi, george, luka, kyrie, kd, booker, ad, lebron, fox, sabonis, curry, tatum, jaylen, brunson, giannis, dame, mitchell, haliburton, embiid, maxey, butler, bam. I listed 26 guys you could pick over jamal, You can argue over a few but I doubt you can pick 6 or more over jamal

[3ba11]

who's better of jokic, shai, edwards, kawhi, george, luka, kyrie, kd, booker, ad, lebron, fox, sabonis, curry, tatum, jaylen, brunson, giannis, dame, mitchell, haliburton, embiid, maxey, butler, bam. I listed 26 guys you could pick over jamal, You can argue over a few but I doubt you can pick 6 or more over jamal


I think Jokic is up there for the same reason that Jordan and Curry are up there - they developed "unbeatable teams" without stacked rosters - specifically, their sidekicks were secondary-producing guys that wouldn't be well-known on other teams outside the of the winning spotlight.

But despite the fact that Murray compares to Pippen and other secondary producers, he's still providing more help than Pippen by "taking over" and being "that guy" in multiple critical playoff wins.. Everyone in history enjoyed this kind of help from teammates that "took over", except the goat - only MJ lacked teammates that "took over".. And only the goat lacked great scoring help in general - the only all-timer that never had a "go-to" player as a teammate.

[tpols]

who's better of jokic, shai, edwards, kawhi, george, luka, kyrie, kd, booker, ad, lebron, fox, sabonis, curry, tatum, jaylen, brunson, giannis, dame, mitchell, haliburton, embiid, maxey, butler, bam. I listed 26 guys you could pick over jamal, You can argue over a few but I doubt you can pick 6 or more over jamal

Which ever ***** makes shots and just as importantly their teammates. This whole thing is a roulette wheel.

[red1]

grocery bagging rivals:


https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg

[red1]

Jordan's teammates were trash relative to today but so were his opponents teammates. So it evens out.

The 80s and 90s were so damn weak compared to today. Bunch of dudes dribbling only right handed getting sagged off 10 feet on every play. That wouldn't fly today. They'd get avalanched from deep.

disagree bro


jordan's team was absolutely STACKED relative to competition during his championship years:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html



they won 55 games and went game 7 of round 2 withe same exact team minus jordan



that is a DEEP roster. much better than the relative competition.

[Meticode]

Jokic isn't in any GOAT case right now, but it's not like Murray or Porter are destroying anything of his. I mean, he did just average, 28/16/10 on 59%FG, 33%3P, 93%FT. What more you want this man to do? He's playing his role perfectly, just like Murray has played his role and excel in it during when it matters the most. The playoffs. Murray will go down to casuals as the most underrated player in NBA history when it's said and done. Zero all-star or all-nba appearances, but is an absolute killer in the playoffs.

[FultzNationRISE]

grocery bagging rivals:


https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg


:roll:

[hold this L]

Is there a more insecure loser on this website than 2ball? I've never seen someone support the literal goat in a sport and act like a whiny b*tch that always brings other players down whenever they have a bit of shine.

At times, I feel like it's just Jeff's account so he can bring more discussion :lol

[elementally morale]

Is there a more insecure loser on this website than 2ball? I've never seen someone support the literal goat in a sport and act like a whiny b*tch that always brings other players down whenever they have a bit of shine.

At times, I feel like it's just Jeff's account so he can bring more discussion :lol

It is Jeff's account.

[3ba11]

Is there a more insecure loser on this website than 2ball? I've never seen someone support the literal goat in a sport and act like a whiny b*tch that always brings other players down whenever they have a bit of shine.

At times, I feel like it's just Jeff's account so he can bring more discussion :lol


I mean, how great is Murray?... :applause:

How great was AD in the 2020 WCF?

How great was Worthy in the 87' WCF and playoffs?

How great was McHale in the 86' Playoffs?

How great was Kareem in the 85' Playoffs and Finals?

And on and on and on...

How great was Wade in 2011 Finals when he outplayed Dirk?

How great was Kyrie when he destroyed Curry in 2016?

How great was Porter in the 92' WCF or Stockton in the 97' WCF?

How great was KJ in the 90' 2nd Round to upset Magic and how great was he in 94' and 95' Playoffs vs Hakeem?


TLDR: Only MJ lacked a teammate to "take over", yet he won twice as many rings as the best player as anyone in 3-pointer history (modern era).... (it can easily be argued the duncan or lebron only have 3 chips as their team's best player).

[hold this L]

It is Jeff's account.

He's either mentally deranged or it's that

[plowking]

If Jokic's teammates play too well - "Oh he has too much help and isn't that guy"

If they don't play well - "He doesn't play optimal winning ball and hinders his teammates"


The reality is, Jokic is statistically dominant and every player that plays with him is more efficient. Jordan can't say the same.