Why can't younger fans accept the word of older guys that saw both guys play

[3ba11]

You never saw Jordan, so you don't realize how great he was, while we saw both Jordan and Lebron, so we can gauge who was better - anyone who saw both think Jordan was easily better.. And it isn't just based on superior winning or superior individual dominance/production rate... it's just the fact that Jordan was bigger world-wide - Lebron is pretty big and famous but nothing like Jordan, who is like Babe Ruth or Ali.

[sdot_thadon]

Same reason you couldn't accept the words of the generation before you. On another note why cant you be more than an idiot jockstrap of a fan?

[Wardell Curry]

You have repeatedly and I do mean repeatedly claimed that you do not watch today's game. Why would anyone accept yours?

[3ba11]

You have repeatedly and I do mean repeatedly claimed that you do not watch today's game. Why would anyone accept yours?


I watched lebron until 2011, so I saw him average 22 on 35% vs Spurs

Then I saw him average 26 on 35% vs 08' Celtics

Then I saw him meltdown against 10' Celtics as massive favorite (21 on 34% for last 3 games to lose as massive favorite: with 7th year organic juggernaut)

Then I saw him choke vs Dwight as massive favorite (7 TO in 4th quarter of game 4 that swung series... horrific clutch efficiency and turnovers that lost 3 fourth quarter leads... and guarding Courtney Lee instead of his own position (hedo)


Then I saw him have goat choke in 2011

All of this is disqualifying

Who cares what he did after putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team - and he still mostly lost every year.. He never mostly won for a stretch with any lineup.. 21 years confirms that he isn't capable of having dynasty or 3-peat with any lineup - he mostly loses everywhere he goes and cannot mostly win regardless of cast

[Gotterdammerung]

It is mostly due to nostalgia that distorts memories of the past that disqualifies most old school fans.

I think it's when we were 15 to 25, that our brains and tastes freeze. Movies, music, sports figures, etc., all happen to peak at those years of our lives.

Because I watched Jordan play back then, it's easy to say he's the greatest ever without any argument.
:kobe:

[ShawkFactory]

I watched lebron until 2011

Well isn't that convenient :lol

[tontoz]

Why is OP so obsessed about what younger people think? :facepalm

[StrongLurk]

No joke, OP needs mental therapy BADLY.

At this rate, he will be in hospice still uttering non-sense about Lebron.

[3ba11]

Well isn't that convenient :lol


Lebron's 2007 run through the East was invalidated when we found out a 22 on 35% bum achieved it - the Spurs showed us Lebron's true caliber... Lebron repeated this against the 08' Celtics, 10' Celtics and 11' Mavs, so he clearly wasn't capable of performing against championship comp at that time.. What more does one need to see?... MJ was so far above that obviously.... 23-year old Jordan had the worst cast in playoff history (30-win team) but nearly beat the goat team in Game 2 of the 1st Round (63 points in double OT).. Then he made the Pistons a joke the instant he got 1 all-star, while Bird/Magic needed super-teams to barely hang with the Bad Boys.. So Jordan was always at a goat level against top comp.. So again, the gap was so clear by 2011, what more did i need to see, plus Kobe was on the downside

[Kblaze8855]

Same reason you couldn't accept the words of the generation before you. On another note why cant you be more than an idiot jockstrap of a fan?

precisely. You should’ve seen my dumb ass talking shit about Elgin Baylor in the 80s.

[3ba11]

precisely. You should’ve seen my dumb ass talking shit about Elgin Baylor in the 80s.


Exactly... no one was doing that - Jerry West has always been Jordan's biggest fan and was touting Jordan's goatness in the 80's, not his teammate Baylor

I'm sure you have all those clips from the 80's where West is marveling about Jordan's goatness

[3ba11]

Well isn't that convenient :lol


And also who wants to see the top producer in the league team-up with the 2nd best like Lebron did with the #2 PER, BPM, WS, VORP (Wade)??? That's like Bird and Magic teaming up... Who wants to see the top 3 players in a conference team up to manufacture a Finals streak?... Who wants to hear people say Lebron takes any team to the Finals when he literally left Cleveland in 2010 because he couldn't as a massive favorite?

[StrongLurk]

And also who wants to see the top producer in the league team-up with the 2nd best like Lebron did with the #2 PER, BPM, WS, VORP (Wade)??? That's like Bird and Magic teaming up... Who wants to see the top 3 players in a conference team up to manufacture a Finals streak?... Who wants to hear people say Lebron takes any team to the Finals when he literally left Cleveland in 2010 because he couldn't as a massive favorite?

Does top producer mean best player? So you think Lebron was the best player in the NBA by the 08-09 season? Interesting.

[tpols]

Because we have the tape now. We can all see everything now.

The 80s and 90s were so rudimentary skill wise. I was watching the film and even Magic... who was super skilled and GOAT of his time... dude would spam right hand and if you cut him off hed shove his ass into you.

Dudes hanging 10-15 feet off everybody and nobody doing nothing about it. Free post catches all day. Today we got dudes like Maxey and Murray putting up playoff Jordan numbers and they're historically relative nobodies.

The skill cap has dramatically increased. Shooting and dribbling especially. The only things the old generation did better was flagrant foul once in a while and get away with it. And yall thought you were tough for that lmao.

[j3lademaster]

Exactly... no one was doing that - Jerry West has always been Jordan's biggest fan and was touting Jordan's goatness in the 80's, not his teammate Baylor

I'm sure you have all those clips from the 80's where West is marveling about Jordan's goatnessWest is more genuine when it comes to giving other generations props. Not everyone's like that, Wilt called MJ's era soft and that he'd average 60-70 ppg.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsRkugzpjwA

Wilt had the EXACT criticism of the then modern NBA: guys aren't allowed to touch you etc etc

[sdot_thadon]

precisely. You should’ve seen my dumb ass talking shit about Elgin Baylor in the 80s.

I know, I did the same for the 60s guards, then I got a bit older and wiser and realized most of their perceived lack of skill was due to more strict dribbling and footwork rules. Eras are completely different if you're an in depth fan.

[sdot_thadon]

And also who wants to see the top producer in the league team-up with the 2nd best like Lebron did with the #2 PER, BPM, WS, VORP (Wade)??? That's like Bird and Magic teaming up... Who wants to see the top 3 players in a conference team up to manufacture a Finals streak?... Who wants to hear people say Lebron takes any team to the Finals when he literally left Cleveland in 2010 because he couldn't as a massive favorite?

Where the hell were you during Miami's big 3 run? The ratings say alot of people wanted to see it. Same for Kds Warrioirs. The ones who didn't want to see either were for ulterior purposes. And no one year of "prime" Wade missing more dunks than any star I've ever seen and three more progressively worse hobbled seasons isn't anything like Magic and Bird teaming up unless you mean prime Magic with bad back Bird. And reality says, Lebron took every single franchise he played for on each run for them to a minimum of 1 Finals appearance and won a chip in 3 different cities when most guys can't even win in 1.

[tpols]

If we look at the rules not much has changed. Iverson and Jordan were palming the ball like crazy all the time. And that was in the 90s.

Dean Smith was talking shit in the 80s about carrying and traveling in the NBA vs college. The difference is now we have 7 foot guys who can bang long jumpers and handle like guards.

Giannis has had seasons shooting better from 3 than Larry Bird a bunch of times. Think about that. Even bum shooters today can outpace GOAT shooters of the past for long stretches. That's absolutely insane.

It's like comparing TVs, computers, phones, and cars from back then til now. There's just been a huge technological increase.

[j3lademaster]

If we look at the rules not much has changed. Iverson and Jordan were palming the ball like crazy all the time. And that was in the 90s.

Dean Smith was talking shit in the 80s about carrying and traveling in the NBA vs college. The difference is now we have 7 foot guys who can bang long jumpers and handle like guards.

Giannis has had seasons shooting better from 3 than Larry Bird a bunch of times. Think about that. Even bum shooters today can outpace GOAT shooters of the past for long stretches. That's absolutely insane.

It's like comparing TVs, computers, phones, and cars from back then til now. There's just been a huge technological increase.traveling has definitely gotten progressively worse lol. I remember Corey Maggette would routinely take like 7 steps whenever he goes into triple threat. I get your point though.

[ShawkFactory]

If we look at the rules not much has changed. Iverson and Jordan were palming the ball like crazy all the time. And that was in the 90s.

Dean Smith was talking shit in the 80s about carrying and traveling in the NBA vs college. The difference is now we have 7 foot guys who can bang long jumpers and handle like guards.

Giannis has had seasons shooting better from 3 than Larry Bird a bunch of times. Think about that. Even bum shooters today can outpace GOAT shooters of the past for long stretches. That's absolutely insane.

It's like comparing TVs, computers, phones, and cars from back then til now. There's just been a huge technological increase.

I don't really disagree as a whole, although rule changes and trains of thought regarding how the game is played affect the game in certain ways without the athletes innately being better.

But..are you trying to imply that Giannis is a better shooter than Bird was?

[bullettooth]

Even the really old "old heads" pick MJ over Kareem, Wilt and Russell.

[tpols]

I don't really disagree as a whole, although rule changes and trains of thought regarding how the game is played affect the game in certain ways without the athletes innately being better.

But..are you trying to imply that Giannis is a better shooter than Bird was?

No I'm not. I'm just trying to illustrate the tech and skill gap increase that has occurred. Larry has a handful of seasons shooting in the 20%'s from 3. That's worse than Westbrook. Now we have guys who aren't even good shooters doing better than that. The skill level of players today is simply way higher.

[sdot_thadon]

If we look at the rules not much has changed. Iverson and Jordan were palming the ball like crazy all the time. And that was in the 90s.

Dean Smith was talking shit in the 80s about carrying and traveling in the NBA vs college. The difference is now we have 7 foot guys who can bang long jumpers and handle like guards.

Giannis has had seasons shooting better from 3 than Larry Bird a bunch of times. Think about that. Even bum shooters today can outpace GOAT shooters of the past for long stretches. That's absolutely insane.

It's like comparing TVs, computers, phones, and cars from back then til now. There's just been a huge technological increase.

The big difference is only a small handful of guys had that carte Blanche ball handling nine that era. In this era they allow way more guys that same freedom. In the 90s they wouldn't allow giannis, shit maybe even Kd to dribble half as much as they do today. Tall guys almost always got dribbling violations in the 80s and 90s if they tried to do much. Dream, Robinson and Ewing were allowed some dribbling moves, but not the shit giannis does now.

[ShawkFactory]

No I'm not. I'm just trying to illustrate the tech and skill gap increase that has occurred. Larry has a handful of seasons shooting in the 20%'s from 3. That's worse than Westbrook. Now we have guys who aren't even good shooters doing better than that. The skill level of players today is simply way higher.

Yea but that was back in the infancy stages of the 3pt line. Even one of the best shooters ever wasn't taking a whole 3 a game. Similar to players now certainly being better midrange players if it was a focus for them growing up, guys back then would have been better 3pt shooters if that was even a thing when they started playing.

[sdot_thadon]

Even the really old "old heads" pick MJ over Kareem, Wilt and Russell.

Untrue. As a kid I latched onto the history of the game young and lots of older fans were team Wilt, Oscar, hell even Dr.J over Mj.

[tpols]

Yea but that was back in the infancy stages of the 3pt line. Even one of the best shooters ever wasn't taking a whole 3 a game. Similar to players now certainly being better midrange players if it was a focus for them growing up, guys back then would have been better 3pt shooters if that was even a thing when they started playing.

I get it was in its infancy and like all things it eventually grew up.

https://i.postimg.cc/vZ8wPtYp/Screenshot-20240501-122144-Chrome.jpg

Old heads looked at the long ball as a stupid gimmick, as is highlighted, and basically considered it stupid to try since it's logically much easier to put the ball in the basket from a closer distance.

What they didn't realize was if you were good at the long shot not only do you get a 50% point bonus, you also diminish the help defense capability of the opposing defense with the threat of spacing.

It's basketball evolution and quite remarkable how quickly humans adapt. Probably the main reason they took over the planet.

[elementally morale]

I know, I did the same for the 60s guards, then I got a bit older and wiser and realized most of their perceived lack of skill was due to more strict dribbling and footwork rules. Eras are completely different if you're an in depth fan.

When I was in my teens and early 20s I used to think basketball before Magic and Bird was a snoozefest. The limited amount of footage I came across convinced me that nobody on the 60s and 70s could play. Seemed to me like a different sport. And then even when I was already posting 'here' (EZ-board) as a 28-30 year old I remember I was trying to compare players of old eras to players like Shaq, Duncan, AI and Kobe. It took me some time to realize I can't make a valid comparison even between teams I myself saw play (say: 1985 Lakers and 2002 Lakers). Why do young people need to get older to accept this? I guess it's the same as with other aspects of life. Experience is something you can value only backwards -- by definition.

[Wally450]

I watched lebron until 2011.

Yikes.

[Duffy Pratt]

I think this pretty much answers the question, from Louis Malle’s film, Atlantic City:

https://youtu.be/pUygAsAE3Y8?si=cxqUh1fetjZVOZYA

[sdot_thadon]

When I was in my teens and early 20s I used to think basketball before Magic and Bird was a snoozefest. The limited amount of footage I came across convinced me that nobody on the 60s and 70s could play. Seemed to me like a different sport. And then even when I was already posting 'here' (EZ-board) as a 28-30 year old I remember I was trying to compare players of old eras to players like Shaq, Duncan, AI and Kobe. It took me some time to realize I can't make a valid comparison even between teams I myself saw play (say: 1985 Lakers and 2002 Lakers). Why do young people need to get older to accept this? I guess it's the same as with other aspects of life. Experience is something you can value only backwards -- by definition.

Truth. It's just a rite of passage at this point. We think we've got it all figured out in our early 20s and 10 years or so later we realize how stupid we were. I definitely remember early message board talk and moreso barber shop talk about Mj or whomever else averaging 60 points in the 60s, not realizing all their 1st steps would be called travels and all the crossovers called carries etc.

[Duffy Pratt]

Truth. It's just a rite of passage at this point. We think we've got it all figured out in our early 20s and 10 years or so later we realize how stupid we were. I definitely remember early message board talk and moreso barber shop talk about Mj or whomever else averaging 60 points in the 60s, not realizing all their 1st steps would be called travels and all the crossovers called carries etc.

Since the all star break, and especially in the playoffs, there has been a drastic dip in scoring. In an ordinary year, teams average 3 fewer points in the playoffs than the regular season. So far this year, they are averaging 10 fewer points. Yet a lot of people insist that the upsurge in scoring in recent years is primarily because of an increase in skill.

What I see, largely, especially in close games, is an extraordinary increase in ISO plays, leading to lethargic, stagnant offenses and ugly basketball, punctuated by a handful of spectacular plays. It’s very odd to me, because it is demonstrable that ISO ball is not the most efficient way to run an offense, and yet basketball “evolution” has not adapted to this, by and large.

Also, since it’s obvious that minor changes in how refs interpret the rules this years has led to a drastic drop in scoring, and a fairly obvious change in the energy teams bring to their defense, I don’t understand why people refuse to acknowledge that even more radical changes (traveling, carries, defensive rules) have on their perception of the skills of people from earlier generations.

[SouBeachTalents]

Accept the word of a mentally ill, pathological liar who hasn’t even watched the player in question in 13 years? No thanks :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Accept the word of a mentally ill, pathological liar who hasn’t even watched the player in question in 13 years? No thanks :lol

That's the thing. I actually would listen to someone older about older players...provided they're reasonable and fair.

[SATAN]

Literally kill yourself.