Casts need great chemistry to play great but modern guys have high set-up times

[3ba11]

Ant, Luka, Lebron, Giannis, Embiid - all these perennial losers have high set-up times at the expense of teammates and chemistry.

So when they lose with top seeds, it's mistakenly blamed on needing more help/talent instead of needing better chemistry and brand of ball that elevates teammates

In contrast to the aforementioned ball-dominators, players that achieved perennial winning for various stretches had low set up times and didn't dominate the ball (Curry, Jokic, MJ), so they have better chemistry and better-performing casts.

It's amazing that Jordan was blamed for losing with rookie teams that won 30 games, but when the organic juggernauts and league favorites of modern stars lose, it's blamed on needing more on-paper talent - this includes on-paper favorites (preseason favorites).

So the modern media are DUMB FRAUDS - both things - they're both dumb and frauds, specifically because they've started this horrible trend of never blaming the top guy and his ability to have great chemistry and elevate teammates - instead, the cast is always blamed.

MJ was required to "elevate teammates", so he developed great chemistry to win with a "normal" cast, but today's stars aren't being held to the same standard - their losses are excused due to lack of help, regardless of how stacked the team was or how long they've been together, or how bad the star's brand of ball and chemistry is.. It's horseshit

[1987_Lakers]

What about Durant?

[FultzNationRISE]

Ant Man >

[SouBeachTalents]

Edwards has more playoff wins in this playoff run at 22 than Jordan had by 25.

[GimmeThat]

if you have to read both the other team and your own team, in the age of social media, how many teams are there for you?

[Carbine]

It's really weird to put Ant in this group. He does not play like that at all. Perennial loser at 22, imagine that. I'm going to take my own advice and stop replying to this fellah, it's truly a waste of our time.

[RRR3]

Edwards has more playoff wins in this playoff run at 22 than Jordan had by 25.
But he's somehow a perennial loser.

[3ba11]

Edwards has more playoff wins in this playoff run at 22 than Jordan had by 25.


Yes let's compare 4th Year team to 1st Year team, so we can say that 22-year Ant won more than 22 year Jordan.

This kind of dumb logic is how you created a fake debate with Lebron, but people are on to that crap with Ant already - Ric Bucher pointed out this obvious flaw of comparing 22-year olds that went to college to those that didn't or barely did.

Ant has an All-NBA teammate and also the goat defender that just won DPOY - that's more help than MJ three-peated with...

[Axe]

Yes let's compare 4th Year team to 1st Year team, so we can say that 22-year Ant won more than 22 year Jordan.

This kind of dumb logic is how you created a fake debate with Lebron, but people are on to that crap with Ant already - Ric Bucher pointed out this obvious flaw of comparing 22-year olds that went to college to those that didn't or barely did.

Ant has an All-NBA teammate and also the goat defender that just won DPOY - that's more help than MJ three-peated with...
Breathe.

[3ba11]

It's really weird to put Ant in this group. He does not play like that at all. Perennial loser at 22, imagine that. I'm going to take my own advice and stop replying to this fellah, it's truly a waste of our time.


Anyone can go re-watch Ant's 44 points on the highlights - they're all "down-hill" transition 3's or at-rim - he had 1 catch-and-go in the half court I think in the 2nd quarter and another mid-range shot later - that's about it... Otherwise, his game is extremely predictable - the Wolves will give it to him to bring the ball up court in transition and he will go for a 3 or layup.. .Rinse repeat... it's a higher set-up time and more predictable than the styles of Curry, MJ or Jokic, who hold the ball far less and generate goat ball movement - they have goat sophistication with their team offense and their non-ball-dominant style allows this higher strategic capacity... Otoh, Ant is vastly inferior compared to Jordan at the non-ball-dominant skills posted in gifs above (jab step, drop-step, first-step, off-ball), so his team's chemistry isn't good enough to elevate teammates and the team to championship level.. He still has to learn how to elevate teammates, but unfortunately, today's ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, Embiid, etc never do and need to start teaming up together, and still mostly lose... it's sad.. then the media blames lack of help for the loss, instead of the player's inability to elevate teammates via great chemistry... Again, massive deficits in team assists support my claim of inferior brand of ball for Ant, Lebron and Luka.. Heck, the common thread in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is massive deficits in team assists

[Duffy Pratt]

Anyone can go re-watch Ant's 44 points on the highlights - they're all "down-hill" transition 3's or at-rim - he had 1 catch-and-go in the half court I think in the 2nd quarter and another mid-range shot later - that's about it... Otherwise, his game is extremely predictable - the Wolves will give it to him to bring the ball up court in transition and he will go for a 3 or layup.. .Rinse repeat... it's a higher set-up time and more predictable than the styles of Curry, MJ or Jokic, who hold the ball far less and generate goat ball movement - they have goat sophistication with their team offense and their non-ball-dominant style allows this higher strategic capacity... Otoh, Ant is vastly inferior compared to Jordan at the non-ball-dominant skills posted in gifs above (jab step, drop-step, first-step, off-ball), so his team's chemistry isn't good enough to elevate teammates and the team to championship level.. He still has to learn how to elevate teammates, but unfortunately, today's ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, Embiid, etc never do and need to start teaming up together, and still mostly lose... it's sad.. then the media blames lack of help for the loss, instead of the player's inability to elevate teammates via great chemistry... Again, massive deficits in team assists support my claim of inferior brand of ball for Ant, Lebron and Luka.. Heck, the common thread in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is massive deficits in team assists

How is a transition downhill bucket or pull-up three a “higher set-up time”?

[3ba11]

How is a transition downhill bucket or pull-up three a “higher set-up time”?


the "down-hill" skillset is extremely predictable - it lacks diversity or prevents offensive sophistication, and it's also run in the halfcourt, which does require set-up time.. we're talking about high screen rolls or iso's where Ant has the ball 25 feet from the hoop - he's just holding or dribbling the ball before he goes downhill.

it's a narrow brand of ball that gets destroyed - Ant and SGA are finding that out - neither will win another game in these playoffs.. This is similar to Lebron losing the last 3 games to lose nearly every series that he lost - teams figure out his weak brand and can't lose thereafter...

Meanwhile, in contrast to Ant and SGA, Luka is currently finding success by not dominating the ball as much because he's hurt or something

[GimmeThat]

the "down-hill" skillset is extremely predictable - it lacks diversity or prevents offensive sophistication, and it's also run in the halfcourt, which does require set-up time.. we're talking about high screen rolls or iso's where Ant has the ball 25 feet from the hoop - he's just holding or dribbling the ball before he goes downhill.

it's a narrow brand of ball that gets destroyed - Ant and SGA are finding that out - neither will win another game in these playoffs.. This is similar to Lebron losing the last 3 games to lose nearly every series that he lost - teams figure out his weak brand and can't lose thereafter...

Meanwhile, in contrast to Ant and SGA, Luka is currently finding success by not dominating the ball as much because he's hurt or something

after all those time not cleaning up after yourself and disinfect yourself with some bleach, we see you be cooking cyanide

[Duffy Pratt]

the "down-hill" skillset is extremely predictable - it lacks diversity or prevents offensive sophistication, and it's also run in the halfcourt, which does require set-up time.. we're talking about high screen rolls or iso's where Ant has the ball 25 feet from the hoop - he's just holding or dribbling the ball before he goes downhill.

it's a narrow brand of ball that gets destroyed - Ant and SGA are finding that out - neither will win another game in these playoffs.. This is similar to Lebron losing the last 3 games to lose nearly every series that he lost - teams figure out his weak brand and can't lose thereafter...

Meanwhile, in contrast to Ant and SGA, Luka is currently finding success by not dominating the ball as much because he's hurt or something

Lots of words that does nothing to answer my question. You were complaining about too much set up time, and said that that was a result of Ant going downhill in transition. So again, how does TRANSITION downhill driving create high set-up time? You contradict yourself and then just spew the same crap.

[GimmeThat]

You contradict yourself and then just spew the same crap.

they're constantly cutting their d*cks off

[BarberSchool]

Thread is based on a solid observation:

High set up times, can negatively affect team chemistry, especially when they fail.
True…..

But OP stepped in it, and strayed away from an originally solid concept. GimmeThat with some LULZ left field engrish observations. GimmeThat posts are like quick riddles, and the prize for solving them is a bewildered gut chuckle.

[3ba11]

Lots of words that does nothing to answer my question. You were complaining about too much set up time, and said that that was a result of Ant going downhill in transition. So again, how does TRANSITION downhill driving create high set-up time? You contradict yourself and then just spew the same crap.


the "down-hill" style is also run in the halfcourt, which requires set-up time.. we're talking about high screen rolls or iso's where Ant has the ball 25 feet from the hoop - he's just holding or dribbling the ball before he goes downhill.

it's a narrow brand of ball that gets destroyed - Ant and SGA are finding that out - neither will win another game in these playoffs.. This is similar to Lebron losing the last 3 games to lose nearly every series that he lost - teams figure out his weak brand and can't lose thereafter...

Meanwhile, in contrast to Ant and SGA, Luka is currently finding success by not dominating the ball as much because he's hurt or something

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-13-2024/Nqra9g.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches?SeasonType=Playoffs&dir=D&sort=TIME_OF_POSS


After 2 games, the Wolves were "too much" for the Nuggets... But now that the Nuggets solved Ant-ball, so it's over.. Neither Ant nor SGA will win another game in these playoffs.. This is just like Lebron losing the last 3 games of basically every playoff series that he lost - teams figure out bron-ball and can't lose thereafter.

[GimmeThat]

the "down-hill" style is also run in the halfcourt, which requires set-up time..

for you to fantasize about drinking random strangers piss

[GimmeThat]

After 2 games, the Wolves were "too much" for the Nuggets... But now that the Nuggets solved Ant-ball, so it's over..

you mean Ant finally got security

[j3lademaster]

Calling a 22 year old a ‘perennial loser’ is really weird. Same with calling a guy who went to 10 straight finals.

[3ba11]

Calling a 22 year old a ‘perennial loser’ is really weird. Same with calling a guy who went to 10 straight finals.


Lebron has the lowest win frequency of any top 10 candidate (4/21)

He put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision") - it's amazing he got credit for winning the conference after that - his Eastern conference wins mean literally nothing.

And losing badly in the Finals means you wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference - so Finals appearances are conference-dependant - only winning the Finals matters to prove you beat the whole league, not a conference you diluted via collusion.

For 16 of 21 seasons, lebron has sweep loss, record loss, upset loss, 1st Round loss, lottery, or 35% shooting in a loss (08')..

No one has more bad losses than Lebron - he's the most beatable player ever and biggest loser on the championship level - a lottery record on the championship level.. He's the biggest loser in NBA history due to 1) worst winning frequency of any top 10 candidate 2) worst Finals record ever 3) goat meltdown and choke in 2011 and 2010 4) lottery in the West without AD

[StrongLurk]

Lebron has the lowest win frequency of any top 10 candidate (4/21)

He put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision") - it's amazing he got credit for winning the conference after that - his Eastern conference wins mean literally nothing.

And losing badly in the Finals means you wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference - so Finals appearances are conference-dependant - only winning the Finals matters to prove you beat the whole league, not a conference you diluted via collusion.

For 16 of 21 seasons, lebron has sweep loss, record loss, upset loss, 1st Round loss, lottery, or 35% shooting in a loss (08')..

No one has more bad losses than Lebron - he's the most beatable player ever and biggest loser on the championship level - a lottery record on the championship level.. He's the biggest loser in NBA history due to 1) worst winning frequency of any top 10 candidate 2) worst Finals record ever 3) goat meltdown and choke in 2011 and 2010 4) lottery in the West without AD

4 finals MVPs, 2nd most all time. Why did all these other "winners" fail to get 4 finals MVPs?

[3ba11]

Why did all these other "winners" fail to get 4 finals MVPs?


You really have to ask?

How many guys teamed up with the next-best player in the league and then added a 3rd franchise player to form a "super-team".

How many guys put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team via "decision"?

Before the "decision", Lebron was a 1-trick pony like Iverson, Dwight or Kidd

Unfortunately, Lebron's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and imposes spot-up roles, so he isn't capable of developing championship chemistry and must seek talent-based winning instead (all-star team strategy, colluding with opponents and other stars).. Ultimately, Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

[StrongLurk]

You really have to ask?

How many guys teamed up with the next-best player in the league and then added a 3rd franchise player to form a "super-team".

How many guys put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team via "decision"?

Before the "decision", Lebron was a 1-trick pony like Iverson, Dwight or Kidd

Unfortunately, Lebron's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and imposes spot-up roles, so he isn't capable of developing championship chemistry and must seek talent-based winning instead (all-star team strategy, colluding with opponents and other stars).. Ultimately, Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

Based on your first sentence, you are saying Lebron was the best player in the league in 2010. Interesting.

So the best player in the league managed to WIN four finals MVPs over the next decade? He was that good for that long?

Looks like the facts show Bron as the second best winner in the modern era.

[3ba11]

Based on your first sentence, you are saying Lebron was the best player in the league in 2010. Interesting.

So the best player in the league managed to WIN four finals MVPs over the next decade? He was that good for that long?

Looks like the facts show Bron as the second best winner in the modern era.


No, he only won 2 more MVP's after 2010, while his Finals MVP's were manufactured via collusions with opposing franchise players.. Apparently you forgot that Wade was better than Kobe in 2010 - that's the guy Lebron teamed up with and then he further diluted the East by plucking another franchise player off another team (bosh).. He put 3 of the top 5 PER's on 1 team.. It's unprecedented.

Ultimately, Lebron is 1/4 with AD, Love and Wade (except the Allen miracle), so he mostly lost at every stop - he never had a stretch where he mostly won with a team, so he literally isn't capable of it - he cannot have a team that mostly wins for any stretch, regardless of cast.... MJ was unbeatable the instant he got 1 other star, while Lebron mostly loses with every cast and regardless of teammates.

[StrongLurk]

No, he only won 2 more MVP's after 2010, while his Finals MVP's were manufactured via collusions with opposing franchise players.. Apparently you forgot that Wade was better than Kobe in 2010 - that's the guy Lebron teamed up with and then he further diluted the East by plucking another franchise player off another team (bosh).. He put 3 of the top 5 PER's on 1 team.. It's unprecedented.

Ultimately, Lebron is 1/4 with AD, Love and Wade (except the Allen miracle), so he mostly lost at every stop - he never had a stretch where he mostly won with a team, so he literally isn't capable of it - he cannot have a team that mostly wins for any stretch, regardless of cast.... MJ was unbeatable the instant he got 1 other star, while Lebron mostly loses with every cast and regardless of teammates.

So once again you are saying Lebron was already the best in the league in 2010.

He then went on to win 4 FMVPs (the greatest indicator of WINNER/GOATNESS) over the next 10 years.

Honestly you have no rebuttal here. No one else is a better winner post-MJ than Lebron (you know this is true which is why you have spent the last 15 years being butthurt about LBJ).

[PeroAntic]

Ant is better than Jordan

[3ba11]

Honestly you have no rebuttal here.





Lebron mostly loses with every cast and isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast - literally incapable of getting anywhere near 3-peat or 6 chips with any cast, aka objectively inferior to MJ...

You have no rebuttal

This is based on a 21-year sample size and hundreds of lineups, coaches and every type of star, such as PG (Kyrie), SG (Wade), PF (Bosh, Love), and center (AD).

[Duffy Pratt]

Ant and SGA are finding that out - neither will win another game in these playoffs..

Please share more pronouncements based on your infinite wisdom and insight.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron mostly loses with every cast and isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast - literally incapable of getting anywhere near 3-peat or 6 chips with any cast, aka objectively inferior to MJ...

You have no rebuttal

This is based on a 21-year sample size and hundreds of lineups, coaches and every type of star, such as PG (Kyrie), SG (Wade), PF (Bosh, Love), and center (AD).

You say Lebron mostly loses, yet he has the second most finals MVPs of all time. You simply aren't applying any logic whatsoever here.

No one cares about players who can't win rings as the best player. Lebron did it 4 times, no one else after MJ accomplished that. You have no real rebuttal to this because it's the historical record. The fact is Bron is the second best winner in the modern era.

[j3lademaster]

You say Lebron mostly loses, yet he has the second most finals MVPs of all time. You simply aren't applying any logic whatsoever here.

No one cares about players who can't win rings as the best player. Lebron did it 4 times, no one else after MJ accomplished that. You have no real rebuttal to this because it's the historical record. The fact is Bron is the second best winner in the modern era.team hop to Heat big 3, Ray Allen shot, Draymond suspension, mickey mouse ring

Just getting that out of the way.

[3ba11]

You say Lebron mostly loses, yet he has the second most finals MVPs of all time. You simply aren't applying any logic whatsoever here.





10 Finals?... only 4 FMVP?.. That means he produced mostly losers, just like I said.. Just imagine if Lebron's skillset produced higher team ceilings/Finals records (better teams), he could have 10 FMVP's and be the unquestioned GOAT like Jordan.

Unfortunately, "bron-ball" is a down-hill brand, which isn't 5-man basketball, so lost to superior brands like the Spurs, Warriors, or Nuggets twice each, and also upset losses to 1-star brands like the Magic or Mavs.. It's the most beatable brand of all-time, even with help.

It's a pretty clear-cut gap where Lebron wins a conference when you give him another star, while MJ wins the league.. And we all know that Lebron actually had DOUBLE the star help of peers like MJ, Jokic or Curry, who built dynasties with only 1 other star.. The temerity it takes to say "I need more help" and then get DOUBLE the star help than what anyone would expect and the historical precedent.. smh

Lebron is 20-21 in the Finals even if we exclude 07', 15', and 18' (22-33 overall).. Accordingly, if all the Finals teams in history were made into a league, Lebron's teams would be the Pistons (worst team in the league)... It turns out that letting a big man dominate the ball and play like a PG is the worst brand of ball in history and mostly loses even when you surround it with "help".. It's literally INCAPABLE of having a stretch of mostly winning, regardless of cast.

History shows that lebron is 1/5 with AD.... 1/4 with Love.... 1/4 with Wade (except Allen miracle)... Lebron is simply a "1/4" guy when he has "help", while MJ was unbeatable with half the star help... When Lebron has "help", he'll go 1/4 and get demolished by record amount, and then he'll leave your franchise in tatters as the front office guts the remaining roster and blows up the team's developed chemistry/identity.

[StrongLurk]

10 Finals?... only 4 FMVP?.. That means he produced mostly losers, just like I said.. Just imagine if Lebron's skillset produced higher team ceilings/Finals records (better teams), he could have 10 FMVP's and be the unquestioned GOAT like Jordan.

Unfortunately, "bron-ball" is a down-hill brand, which isn't 5-man basketball, so lost to superior brands like the Spurs, Warriors, or Nuggets twice each, and also upset losses to 1-star brands like the Magic or Mavs.. It's the most beatable brand of all-time, even with help.

It's a pretty clear-cut gap where Lebron wins a conference when you give him another star, while MJ wins the league.. And we all know that Lebron actually had DOUBLE the star help of peers like MJ, Jokic or Curry, who built dynasties with only 1 other star.. The temerity it takes to say "I need more help" and then get DOUBLE the star help than what anyone would expect and the historical precedent.. smh

Lebron is 20-21 in the Finals even if we exclude 07', 15', and 18' (22-33 overall).. Accordingly, if all the Finals teams in history were made into a league, Lebron's teams would be the Pistons (worst team in the league)... It turns out that letting a big man dominate the ball and play like a PG is the worst brand of ball in history and mostly loses even when you surround it with "help".. It's literally INCAPABLE of having a stretch of mostly winning, regardless of cast.

History shows that lebron is 1/5 with AD.... 1/4 with Love.... 1/4 with Wade (except Allen miracle)... Lebron is simply a "1/4" guy when he has "help", while MJ was unbeatable with half the star help... When Lebron has "help", he'll go 1/4 and get demolished by record amount, and then he'll leave your franchise in tatters as the front office guts the remaining roster and blows up the team's developed chemistry/identity.

Woooo, you are really losing it. You can't have an actual rebuttal to Lebron's 4 FMVPs because it's the ultimate measurement for GOATNESS.

You keep trying to frame 4 FMVPs as a "losing effort", but then you literally don't apply that logic to any other all time greats. Where are the rest of the players with 4 FMVPs? They literally all have less FMVPs besides Jordans, so according to your initial premise, they are ALL bigger losers than Lebron. It's sad seeing you try to claim losing BEFORE the finals is "better" than losing in the finals.

You are ironically just proving my point that Lebron is the second greatest winner in the modern era behind MJ. No one else could match Lebron's peak/prime in the playoffs.

I love seeing you squirm and meltdown over this topic. You just resort to illogical copy/paste spam :lol