Lebron James - 4 FMVPs - 2nd best Winner of all time

[StrongLurk]

Lebron cemented himself as the second best player of all time YEARS ago.

Bron is the second best winner of all time and is still playing at an ALL-NBA level which is incredible.

[Duffy Pratt]

Russell, Havlicek, Kareem, MJ, Mikan, Magic, Kobe, Duncan.

LeBron is second best after all of them, tied with Shaq, and Steph. That is taking into account number of championships with being the best on team at least once.

Apparently, you define the best “winner” as involving something other than winning. Please stop.

[SATAN]

NBA fans are morons.

[warriorfan]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive

[FultzNationRISE]

Good stuff OP. You just moved up a notch in my book.

Youre now at notch 1.


Edit: Wait a minute. SECOND BEST??? :mad::mad::mad:

[3ba11]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive


boom

[RogueBorg]

Lebron is the only top 10 player with a losing Finals record.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron is the only top 10 player with a losing Finals record.
He’s also only the 2nd player to win 4 FMVP.

Wilt has a losing record too btw.

[StrongLurk]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive

Plenty of players left their original team or played on stacked teams. Hell, we even have multiple people in the top ten who were TEAMMATES (Kareem/Magic, Shaq/Kobe).

Yet none of them were good enough to win four finals MVPs. Every player in the modern NBA era had a chance to get 4, and only MJ/Lebron hit that mark.

[r15mohd]

boom

will you remove Kobe from your top 5 due to length of career then?

[StrongLurk]

2nd...best...winner. Reached the very top of the mountain 4 times.

[tpols]

Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.
Kobe was more fearless than LeBron, but he was mediocre in the Finals, awful when facing elimination, had his teammates hit all the big shots, and was 2nd option for most of his titles. His actual on court performance frankly doesn't come close to warranting the Jordan like clutch reputation that he has, and he should really stop being lumped in with Jordan. One's the consensus GOAT, the other is fringe top 10.

[StrongLurk]

Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.

Random words and excuses from Tpols.

Bron has 4 FMVPs to his name. Rings alone are not sufficient when discussing the best of the best (i.e top 20 of all time). You need the FMVP with the ring to reach the top of the mountain. No excuses, just get it done.

[j3lademaster]

Kobe was more fearless than LeBron, but he was mediocre in the Finals, awful when facing elimination, had his teammates hit all the big shots, and was 2nd option for most of his titles. His actual on court performance frankly doesn't come close to warranting the Jordan like clutch reputation that he has, and he should really stop being lumped in with Jordan. One's the consensus GOAT, the other is fringe top 10.

One is a perennial choker, while the other is a clutch god

elimination game stats:

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.pn g

[hold this L]

OP is an example when you have a strong combination of idolization and mental illness.

[BallsOut]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

:lebronamazed:

[r15mohd]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

:lebronamazed:

havlicek is 100%, so are Ron Harper, Horry, Kerr, Mikan..etc. about 65 players have a perfect win/loss finals to their name

[StrongLurk]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

:lebronamazed:

You are using the classic Bron hater/illogical thought that losing before the finals is better than losing in the finals, which invalidates your whole premise.

Winning FMVP is the CORE part of the modern-era GOAT standard. Lebron has more than anyone post-MJ.

[BallsOut]

havlicek is 100%, so are Ron Harper, Horry, Kerr, Mikan..etc. about 65 players have a perfect win/loss finals to their name

They’re all better winners than Lebron James

:lebronamazed:

[StrongLurk]

They’re all better winners than Lebron James

:lebronamazed:

How many FMVPs do the players on your list have? You should write them out for everyone to see. :lebronamazed:

[Duffy Pratt]

How many FMVPs do the players on your list have? You should write them out for everyone to see. :lebronamazed:

So everything depends on the votes of 11 guys who, as media members, are pre-disposed to be narrative driven?

Good players do what needs to be done to win. They play for championships, not finals MVPs. Havlicek is a far better winner than LeBron. So was Duncan. So is Curry. It has almost nothing to do with FMVPs. Basketball is a team game. You’ve implied elsewhere that it’s a black mark to Bird that Max won an FMVP, or to Curry that KD won a pair. Or to Magic that Kareem and Worthy did. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Playing for legacy is crap. The whole GOAT discussion is nothing but an unending spewing of that same crap.

[StrongLurk]

So everything depends on the votes of 11 guys who, as media members, are pre-disposed to be narrative driven?

Good players do what needs to be done to win. They play for championships, not finals MVPs. Havlicek is a far better winner than LeBron. So was Duncan. So is Curry. It has almost nothing to do with FMVPs. Basketball is a team game. You’ve implied elsewhere that it’s a black mark to Bird that Max won an FMVP, or to Curry that KD won a pair. Or to Magic that Kareem and Worthy did. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Playing for legacy is crap. The whole GOAT discussion is nothing but an unending spewing of that same crap.

You claim certain individuals are better "winners", yet then in the same post claim "basketball is a team game".

You are contradicting yourself. Go back to the drawing board and come back to me with something better.

[StrongLurk]

Still no valid rebuttals to OP's premise.

Mods - we can close this thread down since we agree Bron is the second best winner in the 3-point era.

[sdot_thadon]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

:lebronamazed:

Then go back and ask how many did each of those guys win as the clear best player one the squad and you'll have a clear picture.

[And1AllDay]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive

i agree not impressive mikey jordy broke down quit early, had shortgevity yes true

[3ba11]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

[Duffy Pratt]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

Not making the finals is also losing. By this standard, being the man on your team and winning the championship most of the time, there have only been two winners in NBA history: Russell and Mikan. Every other top player lost more than he won. (Havlicek is 50/50).

[StrongLurk]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

I've already debunked these statements of yours. Your logic is wrong because you are saying it's better to lose BEFORE than finals than to lose in the finals. Lebron having 10 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs is better than having only 4 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs.

Again Mods - there are no valid rebuttals so far to the OP. We can close this thread out.

[John8204]

I mean he's got the most playoff games won ever record by a fairly large margin....and he's closing in on Kareem's game record.

I don't quite get why "the finals" means so much when you consider he made the conference and NBA finals so many times in his career.

[3ba11]

I've already debunked these statements of yours. Your logic is wrong because you are saying it's better to lose BEFORE than finals than to lose in the finals. Lebron having 10 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs is better than having only 4 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs.

Again Mods - there are no valid rebuttals so far to the OP. We can close this thread out.


You have no response and lost - why are you acting like Lebron always made the Finals when he literally did the "decision" because he COULDN'T make the Finals??.. He was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight before he put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team.. Both Lebron and Jordan have 9 losses before the Finals, but Lebron also has 4 lottery seasons, so Lebron has more losses before the Finals than just about anybody.... Certainly more than Jordan.

But the real point is that Lebron isn't capable of producing great teams that mostly win - regardless of who we surround him with, his team will barely win 50 games and be perennial underdog and loser on the championship level.. The only time Lebron won 60 games was when he received all-star spacing for his stiff-arm skillset (Mo Williams, Ray Allen).

Lebron is simply the biggest loser of all-time by virtue of the worst record on the championship level and also more bad losses than anyone in history (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, goat chokes, goat meltdowns, losses with 2 all-star teammates, lock up in a loss (08')) - no one has more bad losses than Lebron.

[StrongLurk]

You have no response and lost - why are you acting like Lebron always made the Finals when he literally did the "decision" because he COULDN'T make the Finals??.. He was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight before he put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team.. Both Lebron and Jordan have 9 losses before the Finals, but Lebron also has 4 lottery seasons, so Lebron has more losses before the Finals than just about anybody.... Certainly more than Jordan.

But the real point is that Lebron isn't capable of producing great teams that mostly win - regardless of who we surround him with, his team will barely win 50 games and be perennial underdog and loser on the championship level.. The only time Lebron won 60 games was when he received all-star spacing for his stiff-arm skillset (Mo Williams, Ray Allen).

Lebron is simply the biggest loser of all-time by virtue of the worst record on the championship level and also more bad losses than anyone in history (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, goat chokes, goat meltdowns, losses with 2 all-star teammates, lock up in a loss (08')) - no one has more bad losses than Lebron.

I literally debunked everything you said multiple times in this thread. Even in this post, you are literally agreeing with me that only Jordan is a better winner than Lebron in the 3 point era :roll:.

And wow, you even melted down and made another thread because you couldn't handle the fact that I am right.

You can't "debunk" 4 finals MVPs no matter how hard you try. No one cares about losses because EVERYONE loses. What people care about is what players can make it to the TOP of the mountain (finals MVP). MJ did it 6 times, Lebron did it 4 times, everyone else is behind.

[3ba11]

I literally debunked everything you said multiple times in this thread. Even in this post, you are literally agreeing with me that only Jordan is a better winner than Lebron in the 3 point era :roll:.

And wow, you even melted down and made another thread because you couldn't handle the fact that I am right.

You can't "debunk" 4 finals MVPs no matter how hard you try.


Curry, Duncan or MJ had stretches where they mostly won with a given team - they win 3 chips in 5 years like Duncan, or 3 in 4 like Curry, or 6 in 7 like MJ.... Otoh, Lebron isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast and mostly lost with every cast..

History shows that Lebron mostly lost with every cast and also has the lowest team ceilings/Finals records, and also has more bad losses than any top 10 candidate (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, losses with 2 all-stars, locked up in a loss)..

These things make him the biggest loser of all-time.

[StrongLurk]

When Curry, Duncan or MJ gets a team of guys in their prime, they mostly win - they win 3 chips in 5 years like Duncan, or 3 in 4 like Curry, or 6 in 7 like MJ.... Otoh, Lebron isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast and mostly lost with every cast..

History shows that Lebron mostly lost with every cast and also has the lowest team ceilings/Finals records, and also has more bad losses than any top 10 candidate (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, losses with 2 all-stars, locked up in a loss)..

These things make him the biggest loser of all-time.

Lebron won 3 chips in 5 years just like Duncan. Curry was the second option to Durant, so no one cares about Curry those years.

But yes, MJ is ahead of Lebron. Again we agree on that, but you are just too dumb. Lebron can't be the biggest loser in nba history because he literally has 4 FMVPs. You are just saying nonsense. Lebron is the clear 2nd place guy, quit crying about it :lol.

[3ba11]

Lebron won 3 chips in 5 years


Not with the same cast - he never mostly won with any cast, and mostly lost with every cast.

Lebron gets to refresh his cast with the best young studs every 4 years, so he doesn't have to deal with young or aging teammates Curry or MJ did - it's the weakest shit ever.

For a GM, the worst part about Lebron is that he's good for 1 chip before opponents figure him out and then your franchise is completely destroyed - he isn't worth it at all.. And he lacks the chemistry to deal with aging talent, so he must team-hop.. again, it's the weakest shit ever.. he's the biggest fraud in sports history... the most selfish, narcissistic, self-centered, praise-seeking and teammate-blaming player in the history of the NBA... He doesn't know what chemistry is - "more help" is the only thing he knows (talent-based winning).

[StrongLurk]

Not with the same cast - he never mostly won with any cast, and mostly lost with every cast.

Lebron gets to refresh his cast with the best young studs every 4 years, so he doesn't have to deal with young or aging teammates Curry or MJ did - it's the weakest shit ever.

For a GM, the worst part about Lebron is that he's good for 1 chip before opponents figure him out and then your franchise is completely destroyed - he isn't worth it at all.. And he lacks the chemistry to deal with aging talent, so he must team-hop.. again, it's the weakest shit ever.. he's the biggest fraud in sports history... the most selfish, narcissistic, self-centered, praise-seeking and teammate-blaming player in the history of the NBA.

Duncan's teams had TONS of player turnover across his career. You are being idiotic. Duncan's case for GOAT standard did nothing with his 4th and 5th rings. Also the fact that Lebron WON with so many different players is a positive, not a negative.

The GOAT standard relies on FMVPs. That's ultimately what matters. Lebron and MJ had a ton of series where they were the best players, but still lost.

The GOAT standard in basketball requires winning, and the FMVP is the highest standard of winning. It is what it is.

Lebron is 2nd behind MJ with 4.

[3ba11]

Duncan's teams had TONS of player turnover across his career. You are being idiotic. Duncan's case for GOAT standard did nothing with his 4th and 5th rings. Also the fact that Lebron WON with so many different players is a positive, not a negative.

The GOAT standard relies on FMVPs. That's ultimately what matters. Lebron and MJ had a ton of series where they were the best players, but still lost.

The GOAT standard in basketball requires winning, and the FMVP is the highest standard of winning. It is what it is.

Lebron is 2nd behind MJ with 4.


Nope - if Lebron can't mostly win with ANY cast, then he's nowhere near guys that can mostly win with a cast.

I'll take guys that can produce dominant dynasties over the guy that mostly loses and needs more help regardless of cast.

it's simple and intuitive... Lebron's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't produce the great chemistry that yields a great-performing cast, aka great team.. it's sad that someone like this has convinced so many poor fans that he's on a goat level, when he's really the biggest loser in NBA history.

[StrongLurk]

Nope - if Lebron can't mostly win with ANY cast, then he's nowhere near guys that can mostly win with a cast.

I'll take guys that can produce dominant dynasties over the guy that mostly loses and needs more help regardless of cast.

it's simple and intuitive... Lebron's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't produce the great chemistry that yields a great-performing cast, aka great team.. it's sad that someone like this has convinced so many poor fans that he's on a goat level, when he's really the biggest loser in NBA history.

What does "biggest loser in NBA history" even mean? Go ahead and actually define it. As of now, it's a meaningless, hyperbolic statement that you love to spam out of your ass. I might as well just say Jordan is the biggest loser in NBA history in response. Just pointless drivel coming from your very limited NBA knowledge.

Clearly you are very pressed with my OP and you've been reduced to spamming my thread with your unstable insecurities. You can't debunk 4 finals MVPs because it's the second best winning accomplishment in the modern era.

[StrongLurk]

This year will bring in a brand new FMVP. Will be interesting to see who can start their path to chasing Bron's 4 FMVPs.