Lebron James - 4 FMVPs - 2nd best Winner of all time

[StrongLurk]

Lebron cemented himself as the second best player of all time YEARS ago.

Bron is the second best winner of all time and is still playing at an ALL-NBA level which is incredible.

[Duffy Pratt]

Russell, Havlicek, Kareem, MJ, Mikan, Magic, Kobe, Duncan.

LeBron is second best after all of them, tied with Shaq, and Steph. That is taking into account number of championships with being the best on team at least once.

Apparently, you define the best “winner” as involving something other than winning. Please stop.

[SATAN]

NBA fans are morons.

[warriorfan]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive

[FultzNationRISE]

Good stuff OP. You just moved up a notch in my book.

Youre now at notch 1.


Edit: Wait a minute. SECOND BEST??? :mad::mad::mad:

[3ba11]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive


boom

[RogueBorg]

Lebron is the only top 10 player with a losing Finals record.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron is the only top 10 player with a losing Finals record.
He’s also only the 2nd player to win 4 FMVP.

Wilt has a losing record too btw.

[StrongLurk]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive

Plenty of players left their original team or played on stacked teams. Hell, we even have multiple people in the top ten who were TEAMMATES (Kareem/Magic, Shaq/Kobe).

Yet none of them were good enough to win four finals MVPs. Every player in the modern NBA era had a chance to get 4, and only MJ/Lebron hit that mark.

[r15mohd]

boom

will you remove Kobe from your top 5 due to length of career then?

[StrongLurk]

2nd...best...winner. Reached the very top of the mountain 4 times.

[tpols]

Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.
Kobe was more fearless than LeBron, but he was mediocre in the Finals, awful when facing elimination, had his teammates hit all the big shots, and was 2nd option for most of his titles. His actual on court performance frankly doesn't come close to warranting the Jordan like clutch reputation that he has, and he should really stop being lumped in with Jordan. One's the consensus GOAT, the other is fringe top 10.

[StrongLurk]

Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.

Random words and excuses from Tpols.

Bron has 4 FMVPs to his name. Rings alone are not sufficient when discussing the best of the best (i.e top 20 of all time). You need the FMVP with the ring to reach the top of the mountain. No excuses, just get it done.

[j3lademaster]

Kobe was more fearless than LeBron, but he was mediocre in the Finals, awful when facing elimination, had his teammates hit all the big shots, and was 2nd option for most of his titles. His actual on court performance frankly doesn't come close to warranting the Jordan like clutch reputation that he has, and he should really stop being lumped in with Jordan. One's the consensus GOAT, the other is fringe top 10.

One is a perennial choker, while the other is a clutch god

elimination game stats:

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.pn g

[hold this L]

OP is an example when you have a strong combination of idolization and mental illness.

[BallsOut]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

:lebronamazed:

[r15mohd]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

:lebronamazed:

havlicek is 100%, so are Ron Harper, Horry, Kerr, Mikan..etc. about 65 players have a perfect win/loss finals to their name

[StrongLurk]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

:lebronamazed:

You are using the classic Bron hater/illogical thought that losing before the finals is better than losing in the finals, which invalidates your whole premise.

Winning FMVP is the CORE part of the modern-era GOAT standard. Lebron has more than anyone post-MJ.

[BallsOut]

havlicek is 100%, so are Ron Harper, Horry, Kerr, Mikan..etc. about 65 players have a perfect win/loss finals to their name

They’re all better winners than Lebron James

:lebronamazed:

[StrongLurk]

They’re all better winners than Lebron James

:lebronamazed:

How many FMVPs do the players on your list have? You should write them out for everyone to see. :lebronamazed:

[Duffy Pratt]

How many FMVPs do the players on your list have? You should write them out for everyone to see. :lebronamazed:

So everything depends on the votes of 11 guys who, as media members, are pre-disposed to be narrative driven?

Good players do what needs to be done to win. They play for championships, not finals MVPs. Havlicek is a far better winner than LeBron. So was Duncan. So is Curry. It has almost nothing to do with FMVPs. Basketball is a team game. You’ve implied elsewhere that it’s a black mark to Bird that Max won an FMVP, or to Curry that KD won a pair. Or to Magic that Kareem and Worthy did. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Playing for legacy is crap. The whole GOAT discussion is nothing but an unending spewing of that same crap.

[StrongLurk]

So everything depends on the votes of 11 guys who, as media members, are pre-disposed to be narrative driven?

Good players do what needs to be done to win. They play for championships, not finals MVPs. Havlicek is a far better winner than LeBron. So was Duncan. So is Curry. It has almost nothing to do with FMVPs. Basketball is a team game. You’ve implied elsewhere that it’s a black mark to Bird that Max won an FMVP, or to Curry that KD won a pair. Or to Magic that Kareem and Worthy did. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Playing for legacy is crap. The whole GOAT discussion is nothing but an unending spewing of that same crap.

You claim certain individuals are better "winners", yet then in the same post claim "basketball is a team game".

You are contradicting yourself. Go back to the drawing board and come back to me with something better.

[StrongLurk]

Still no valid rebuttals to OP's premise.

Mods - we can close this thread down since we agree Bron is the second best winner in the 3-point era.

[sdot_thadon]

OP is using a very oddly specific criteria for what a “winner” is. Apparently you can lose the nba finals and still be a winner (there have been many finals mvps on the losing team)

Let’s take an objective “winner” criteria and apply it instead.

Top 10 NBA players of all time (NBA finals records wins/losses):
1. Michael Jordan (6/6, 100%)
2. Bill Russell (11/12, 92%)
3. Tim Duncan (5/6, 83%)
4. Kobe Bryant (5/7, 71%)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (4/6, 67%)
6. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6/10, 60%)
7. Larry Bird (3/5, 60%)
8. Dwyane Wade (3/5, 60%)
9. Magic Johnson (5/9, 56%)
10. James Worthy (3/6, 50%)

Outside looking in:
LeBron James (4/10, 40%)
Wilt Chamberlain (2/6, 33%)
Julius Erving (1/4, 25%)
Jerry West (1/9, 11%)
Elgin Baylor (0/7, 0%)

Thus, rather than being anywhere near the top of the winner group, objectively it appears that Lebron is closer to being associated with a loser/choker category you often hear those other players associated with.

:lebronamazed:

Then go back and ask how many did each of those guys win as the clear best player one the squad and you'll have a clear picture.

[And1AllDay]

when accounting for length of career plus team hops it’s just not very impressive

i agree not impressive mikey jordy broke down quit early, had shortgevity yes true

[3ba11]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

[Duffy Pratt]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

Not making the finals is also losing. By this standard, being the man on your team and winning the championship most of the time, there have only been two winners in NBA history: Russell and Mikan. Every other top player lost more than he won. (Havlicek is 50/50).

[StrongLurk]

10 Finals appearances but only 4 titles = mostly losing

No one cares about the Finals appearances that were achieved by facing Derozan instead of Wade - he diluted his Eastern comp by teaming up with the best players in the conference so he could face lesser guys like Derozan and Oladipo.. So Lebron failed at winning the league 6 times, and only succeeded at winning a diluted conference and then he was immediately lottery out West without AD (and even with AD)...

Ultimately, his many Finals losses by big margins confirm that he wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and simply won a conference that was diluted via collusion of it's best players.

I've already debunked these statements of yours. Your logic is wrong because you are saying it's better to lose BEFORE than finals than to lose in the finals. Lebron having 10 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs is better than having only 4 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs.

Again Mods - there are no valid rebuttals so far to the OP. We can close this thread out.

[John8204]

I mean he's got the most playoff games won ever record by a fairly large margin....and he's closing in on Kareem's game record.

I don't quite get why "the finals" means so much when you consider he made the conference and NBA finals so many times in his career.

[3ba11]

I've already debunked these statements of yours. Your logic is wrong because you are saying it's better to lose BEFORE than finals than to lose in the finals. Lebron having 10 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs is better than having only 4 finals appearances and 4 FMVPs.

Again Mods - there are no valid rebuttals so far to the OP. We can close this thread out.


You have no response and lost - why are you acting like Lebron always made the Finals when he literally did the "decision" because he COULDN'T make the Finals??.. He was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight before he put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team.. Both Lebron and Jordan have 9 losses before the Finals, but Lebron also has 4 lottery seasons, so Lebron has more losses before the Finals than just about anybody.... Certainly more than Jordan.

But the real point is that Lebron isn't capable of producing great teams that mostly win - regardless of who we surround him with, his team will barely win 50 games and be perennial underdog and loser on the championship level.. The only time Lebron won 60 games was when he received all-star spacing for his stiff-arm skillset (Mo Williams, Ray Allen).

Lebron is simply the biggest loser of all-time by virtue of the worst record on the championship level and also more bad losses than anyone in history (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, goat chokes, goat meltdowns, losses with 2 all-star teammates, lock up in a loss (08')) - no one has more bad losses than Lebron.

[StrongLurk]

You have no response and lost - why are you acting like Lebron always made the Finals when he literally did the "decision" because he COULDN'T make the Finals??.. He was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight before he put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team.. Both Lebron and Jordan have 9 losses before the Finals, but Lebron also has 4 lottery seasons, so Lebron has more losses before the Finals than just about anybody.... Certainly more than Jordan.

But the real point is that Lebron isn't capable of producing great teams that mostly win - regardless of who we surround him with, his team will barely win 50 games and be perennial underdog and loser on the championship level.. The only time Lebron won 60 games was when he received all-star spacing for his stiff-arm skillset (Mo Williams, Ray Allen).

Lebron is simply the biggest loser of all-time by virtue of the worst record on the championship level and also more bad losses than anyone in history (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, goat chokes, goat meltdowns, losses with 2 all-star teammates, lock up in a loss (08')) - no one has more bad losses than Lebron.

I literally debunked everything you said multiple times in this thread. Even in this post, you are literally agreeing with me that only Jordan is a better winner than Lebron in the 3 point era :roll:.

And wow, you even melted down and made another thread because you couldn't handle the fact that I am right.

You can't "debunk" 4 finals MVPs no matter how hard you try. No one cares about losses because EVERYONE loses. What people care about is what players can make it to the TOP of the mountain (finals MVP). MJ did it 6 times, Lebron did it 4 times, everyone else is behind.

[3ba11]

I literally debunked everything you said multiple times in this thread. Even in this post, you are literally agreeing with me that only Jordan is a better winner than Lebron in the 3 point era :roll:.

And wow, you even melted down and made another thread because you couldn't handle the fact that I am right.

You can't "debunk" 4 finals MVPs no matter how hard you try.


Curry, Duncan or MJ had stretches where they mostly won with a given team - they win 3 chips in 5 years like Duncan, or 3 in 4 like Curry, or 6 in 7 like MJ.... Otoh, Lebron isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast and mostly lost with every cast..

History shows that Lebron mostly lost with every cast and also has the lowest team ceilings/Finals records, and also has more bad losses than any top 10 candidate (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, losses with 2 all-stars, locked up in a loss)..

These things make him the biggest loser of all-time.

[StrongLurk]

When Curry, Duncan or MJ gets a team of guys in their prime, they mostly win - they win 3 chips in 5 years like Duncan, or 3 in 4 like Curry, or 6 in 7 like MJ.... Otoh, Lebron isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast and mostly lost with every cast..

History shows that Lebron mostly lost with every cast and also has the lowest team ceilings/Finals records, and also has more bad losses than any top 10 candidate (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, losses with 2 all-stars, locked up in a loss)..

These things make him the biggest loser of all-time.

Lebron won 3 chips in 5 years just like Duncan. Curry was the second option to Durant, so no one cares about Curry those years.

But yes, MJ is ahead of Lebron. Again we agree on that, but you are just too dumb. Lebron can't be the biggest loser in nba history because he literally has 4 FMVPs. You are just saying nonsense. Lebron is the clear 2nd place guy, quit crying about it :lol.

[3ba11]

Lebron won 3 chips in 5 years


Not with the same cast - he never mostly won with any cast, and mostly lost with every cast.

Lebron gets to refresh his cast with the best young studs every 4 years, so he doesn't have to deal with young or aging teammates Curry or MJ did - it's the weakest shit ever.

For a GM, the worst part about Lebron is that he's good for 1 chip before opponents figure him out and then your franchise is completely destroyed - he isn't worth it at all.. And he lacks the chemistry to deal with aging talent, so he must team-hop.. again, it's the weakest shit ever.. he's the biggest fraud in sports history... the most selfish, narcissistic, self-centered, praise-seeking and teammate-blaming player in the history of the NBA... He doesn't know what chemistry is - "more help" is the only thing he knows (talent-based winning).

[StrongLurk]

Not with the same cast - he never mostly won with any cast, and mostly lost with every cast.

Lebron gets to refresh his cast with the best young studs every 4 years, so he doesn't have to deal with young or aging teammates Curry or MJ did - it's the weakest shit ever.

For a GM, the worst part about Lebron is that he's good for 1 chip before opponents figure him out and then your franchise is completely destroyed - he isn't worth it at all.. And he lacks the chemistry to deal with aging talent, so he must team-hop.. again, it's the weakest shit ever.. he's the biggest fraud in sports history... the most selfish, narcissistic, self-centered, praise-seeking and teammate-blaming player in the history of the NBA.

Duncan's teams had TONS of player turnover across his career. You are being idiotic. Duncan's case for GOAT standard did nothing with his 4th and 5th rings. Also the fact that Lebron WON with so many different players is a positive, not a negative.

The GOAT standard relies on FMVPs. That's ultimately what matters. Lebron and MJ had a ton of series where they were the best players, but still lost.

The GOAT standard in basketball requires winning, and the FMVP is the highest standard of winning. It is what it is.

Lebron is 2nd behind MJ with 4.

[3ba11]

Duncan's teams had TONS of player turnover across his career. You are being idiotic. Duncan's case for GOAT standard did nothing with his 4th and 5th rings. Also the fact that Lebron WON with so many different players is a positive, not a negative.

The GOAT standard relies on FMVPs. That's ultimately what matters. Lebron and MJ had a ton of series where they were the best players, but still lost.

The GOAT standard in basketball requires winning, and the FMVP is the highest standard of winning. It is what it is.

Lebron is 2nd behind MJ with 4.


Nope - if Lebron can't mostly win with ANY cast, then he's nowhere near guys that can mostly win with a cast.

I'll take guys that can produce dominant dynasties over the guy that mostly loses and needs more help regardless of cast.

it's simple and intuitive... Lebron's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't produce the great chemistry that yields a great-performing cast, aka great team.. it's sad that someone like this has convinced so many poor fans that he's on a goat level, when he's really the biggest loser in NBA history.

[StrongLurk]

Nope - if Lebron can't mostly win with ANY cast, then he's nowhere near guys that can mostly win with a cast.

I'll take guys that can produce dominant dynasties over the guy that mostly loses and needs more help regardless of cast.

it's simple and intuitive... Lebron's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't produce the great chemistry that yields a great-performing cast, aka great team.. it's sad that someone like this has convinced so many poor fans that he's on a goat level, when he's really the biggest loser in NBA history.

What does "biggest loser in NBA history" even mean? Go ahead and actually define it. As of now, it's a meaningless, hyperbolic statement that you love to spam out of your ass. I might as well just say Jordan is the biggest loser in NBA history in response. Just pointless drivel coming from your very limited NBA knowledge.

Clearly you are very pressed with my OP and you've been reduced to spamming my thread with your unstable insecurities. You can't debunk 4 finals MVPs because it's the second best winning accomplishment in the modern era.

[StrongLurk]

This year will bring in a brand new FMVP. Will be interesting to see who can start their path to chasing Bron's 4 FMVPs.

[StrongLurk]

Quick bump and reminder for the inbreds posting here.

No one has higher regular season achievements (4 MVPS) and Finals Achievements (4 FMVPs) than Lebron in his era, which is the modern era.

Lebron is the clear cut GOAT of the modern era.

[3ba11]

.
The following was required in 1992 to sweep a 1st Round opponent and show no weakness as defending champs:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-25-2024/WOxWbX.gif


The proper perspective that young fans should have about MJ is to look at the 1998 Finals, which is a good example because many young fans have some knowledge and/or remember this series.

the point is that EVERY series was like the 98' Finals, as far as the goat stats, 2nd half and 4th quarter domination, heroics and statistical gap between MJ and his cast.

This includes the sweeps (shown above or here (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U_Ca7_HClNg) for example), let alone the 6 or 7-game series, which show similar heroics and massive gaps in stats between MJ and his cast.. Only the GOAT carried this load on offense, so MJ's goat defense further separates him (1st team defense every year including a runner-up DPOY, DPOY, and no worse than 7th from 88' to 98' plus scoring champ, aka goat peak and goat longevity of peak).

[dankok8]

Russell would definitely have more than 4 FMVP's had they been given in that era but OP's point stands.

[SouBeachTalents]

.
The following was required in 1992 to sweep a 1st Round opponent and show no weakness as defending champs:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-25-2024/WOxWbX.gif


The proper perspective that young fans should have about MJ is to look at the 1998 Finals, which is a good example because many young fans have some knowledge and/or remember this series.

the point is that EVERY series was like the 98' Finals, as far as the goat stats, 2nd half and 4th quarter domination, heroics and statistical gap between MJ and his cast.

This includes the sweeps (shown above or here (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U_Ca7_HClNg) for example), let alone the 6 or 7-game series, which show similar heroics and massive gaps in stats between MJ and his cast.. Only the GOAT carried this load on offense, so MJ's goat defense further separates him (1st team defense every year including a runner-up DPOY, DPOY, and no worse than 7th from 88' to 98' plus scoring champ, aka goat peak and goat longevity of peak).
Jordan's team won 55 games without him.

[sdot_thadon]

Russell would definitely have more than 4 FMVP's had they been given in that era but OP's point stands.

He'd also have more than 6.....

[RRR3]

He'd also have more than 6.....
He might have 11 lol

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-04-2024/oT9i_-.gif




Jordan's team won 55 games without him.

And Austin Reaves apparently could win 55 against sleeping opponents as well... :facepalm:

It wasn't remotely surprising that once opponents woke up in the playoffs, the Bulls were exposed and the "real" Bulls without MJ were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. It's intuitive that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95'.

[sdot_thadon]

He might have 11 lol

Not 11 but I think he's probably got a good argument for 7-8.

[StrongLurk]

Quick bump and reminder for the inbreds posting here.

No one has higher regular season achievements (4 MVPS) and Finals Achievements (4 FMVPs) than Lebron in his era, which is the modern era.

Lebron is the clear cut GOAT of the modern era.

Clear cut historical record.

[dankok8]

He'd also have more than 6.....

Sure.

He had very subdued offensive series in 1957, 1964, and 1968. So I think he would have about 7.

[sdot_thadon]

Sure.

He had very subdued offensive series in 1957, 1964, and 1968. So I think he would have about 7.

Back then somehow the minds that analyzed basketball weren't stuck on ppg and knew Russell's impact. So worrying about his offense whenever that was just the cherry on top of his real impact is questionable.

[dankok8]

Back then somehow the minds that analyzed basketball weren't stuck on ppg and knew Russell's impact. So worrying about his offense whenever that was just the cherry on top of his real impact is questionable.

When his teammates are scoring ~10 ppg more than him and also playmaking more then it's likely he doesn't get FMVP. It's not about being stuck on ppg. Defensive impact only takes you so far. Still ~7 FMVP's which he IMO gets is pretty insane.

[sdot_thadon]

When his teammates are scoring ~10 ppg more than him and also playmaking more then it's likely he doesn't get FMVP. It's not about being stuck on ppg. Defensive impact only takes you so far. Still ~7 FMVP's which he IMO gets is pretty insane.

Hate to tell you this, but he has 5 LEAGUE MVPS under those exact same circumstances. Cmon now.

[RRR3]

Hate to tell you this, but he has 5 LEAGUE MVPS under those exact same circumstances. Cmon now.
Bro's scared he'd almost double his hero in FMVPs :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

I remember I saw a comprehensive breakdown on FMVP's pre 1969, don't remember which site, and they came to the conclusion Russell would've won 7 FMVP's for his first 10 rings, which imo is a pretty fair estimate.

Where Russell really gets boned is not having DPOY in his era, he could've won almost every year of his career, I think that same site estimated he'd be at something ridiculous like 11 DPOY's.

[StrongLurk]

Let me clarify that Bill Russell is basically included in this as well since we know he would've had a lot of FMVPs if the award existed.

So I am happy to rephrase the OP to only factor in the NBA post-1980 (3-point line).

When it comes to GOAT discussions, the players NEED the FMVP with the Ring. It's a requirement.

[SouBeachTalents]

Let me clarify that Bill Russell is basically included in this as well since we know he would've had a lot of FMVPs if the award existed.

So I am happy to rephrase the OP to only factor in the NBA post-1980 (3-point line).

When it comes to GOAT discussions, the players NEED the FMVP with the Ring. It's a requirement.
3ball's real favorite player only won 2 FMVP's for his 5 rings :(

[hold this L]

There's zero arguments whatsoever that Lebron is a bigger winner than Bill, the goat, or Kareem. Hell, he doesn't have much of a conversation being above Magic in that regard.

[SouBeachTalents]

There's zero arguments whatsoever that Lebron is a bigger winner than Bill, the goat, or Kareem. Hell, he doesn't have much of a conversation being above Magic in that regard.
Kareem's last 2 titles are pretty weak for GOAT standards

19/7/2 on 60%TS in the '87 playoffs
14/6/2 on 50%TS in the '88 playoffs

Don't get me wrong, '87 is impressive for a 40 year old, but imo that shouldn't move the needle in GOAT discussions. Besides, people get WAY too caught up in rings in GOAT discussions, treating it like it's golf or tennis.

In regards to LeBron, he played GOAT tier basketball in several years he didn't win like '09, '17 & '18, his team not winning a championship doesn't invalidate how he performed, same could be said for several other players as well.

[Axe]

We all know that kong is probably the most ultimate carrying machine the league has ever seen who used to thrive so much with a roster full of scrubs. But let's face it. There wouldn't be tons of roster changes that happened on his teams throughout his career if he was more effective at winning the finals that way. :ohwell:

[Stephonit]

Lebron won 3 chips in 5 years just like Duncan. Curry was the second option to Durant, so no one cares about Curry those years.

But yes, MJ is ahead of Lebron. Again we agree on that, but you are just too dumb. Lebron can't be the biggest loser in nba history because he literally has 4 FMVPs. You are just saying nonsense. Lebron is the clear 2nd place guy, quit crying about it :lol.

FMVPs are worthless. The FMVPs that Curry did not get that you say no one should care about are actually the FMVPs that show how worthless they are.

Curry won a championship before Durant came. Durant got two FMVPs. Which gives the more telling idea of what would happen in the future: the previous championship or the FMVPs? The championship Curry had before of course. That's why despite Durant forming a superteam and Curry being stuck with a team that was last in the league Curry was still the first to win another championship.

[StrongLurk]

There's zero arguments whatsoever that Lebron is a bigger winner than Bill, the goat, or Kareem. Hell, he doesn't have much of a conversation being above Magic in that regard.

:roll:

Well for one, I already said MJ is a greater winner than Lebron. I also gave Bill Russell credit too, but my thread is really for the eras with FMVP (that came at the end of Russell's career).

So half your post is already addressed. And then you try to claim that Lebron has ZERO argument over Kareem/Magic...you know...two guys who literally played for a decade together on the same team :roll:

Your whole post is trash :facepalm

[StrongLurk]

Who is the next person to get to 4 FMVPs?

Right now it's MJ 1, Lebron 2 in the 3-point era.

[SouBeachTalents]

Who is the next person to get to 4 FMVPs?

Right now it's MJ 1, Lebron 2 in the 3-point era.
Let's see someone get to 3 first. Over the last 15 years only 2 other guys won more than 1, KD had to piggyback onto a 73 win team for his and Kawhi was a role player for one of his.

[StrongLurk]

Let's see someone get to 3 first. Over the last 15 years only 2 other guys won more than 1, KD had to piggyback onto a 73 win team for his and Kawhi was a role player for one of his.

Well the modern era, aka toughest era, started in 2003 (finally using instant replay, first round series went to best of 7, free agency/contract rules changes, and a litany of other things in 2003) and is still going, although we are on the edge of a brand new era, probably by 2028.

It's not surprising only Lebron managed to snag 4 FMVPs and 4 MVPs during the hardest era so far.

[sdot_thadon]

Well the modern era, aka toughest era, started in 2003 (finally using instant replay, first round series went to best of 7, free agency/contract rules changes, and a litany of other things in 2003) and is still going, although we are on the edge of a brand new era, probably by 2028.

It's not surprising only Lebron managed to snag 4 FMVPs and 4 MVPs during the hardest era so far.

The new cap rules make it seem less and less likely going forward, because these guys arent going to be able to keep contenders together too many years before retooling.

[StrongLurk]

The new cap rules make it seem less and less likely going forward, because these guys arent going to be able to keep contenders together too many years before retooling.

True, now that I think about it, the NBA probably FULLY started a new era in 2023. We'll have to see if this new era is "harder", it should be but it's not 100% guarantee.

So yeah, either way, Lebron was the GOAT in the hardest KNOWN NBA era (2003-2022).

[3ba11]

Lebron got extra Finals chances that he never earned by putting the top 3 players in the East on 1 team and forming big 3's, so this cheating negates the value of his 4 FMVP, since he wasn't really good enough to make all those Finals.

But carry on supporting a proven loser and fraud, while intelligent people patiently wait for this massive negative to give up and retire - it's too late - he lost.. He never caught the ghost and the ghost is long gone.. Now he's an old desperate bum looking for anyone that can carry him to a title, just so he can catch Kobe, let alone Mike.. It's another sad case of an all-timer hanging on too long.. This one will be the most excruciating one ever.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron got extra Finals chances that he never earned by putting the top 3 players in the East on 1 team and forming big 3's, so this cheating negates the value of his 4 FMVP, since he wasn't really good enough to make all those Finals.

But carry on supporting a proven loser and fraud, while intelligent people patiently wait for this massive negative to give up and retire - it's too late - he lost.. He never caught the ghost and the ghost is long gone.. Now he's an old desperate bum looking for anyone that can carry him to a title, just so he can catch Kobe, let alone Mike.. It's another sad case of an all-timer hanging on too long.. This one will be the most excruciating one ever.

All the best players in Lebron's era also played with the best talent, so your whole point is moot. No one matched Lebron in FMVPs or MVPs. Only Jordan is ahead in 3-pointer era. No one else before or after Lebron has been better than Lebron.

[Full Court]

Russell, Havlicek, Kareem, MJ, Mikan, Magic, Kobe, Duncan.

LeBron is second best after all of them, tied with Shaq, and Steph. That is taking into account number of championships with being the best on team at least once.

Apparently, you define the best “winner” as involving something other than winning. Please stop.

And that, my friends, is the problem with Bronie fluffers.

[Walk on Water]

All the best players in Lebron's era also played with the best talent, so your whole point is moot. No one matched Lebron in FMVPs or MVPs. Only Jordan is ahead in 3-pointer era. No one else before or after Lebron has been better than Lebron.

So how is Lebron better than Jordan if Jordan won more MVPS and FMVPS and more chips I may add? This is the problem. You claim that Lebron is better than everyone because he has more MVPS and FMVPS but than when Jordan is ahead of him in that department, now you're gonna come up with some excuse on why that doesn't count.

[Walk on Water]

Let me clarify that Bill Russell is basically included in this as well since we know he would've had a lot of FMVPs if the award existed.

So I am happy to rephrase the OP to only factor in the NBA post-1980 (3-point line).

When it comes to GOAT discussions, the players NEED the FMVP with the Ring. It's a requirement.


You also failed to mention that in the bubble year, Anthony Davis lead Lebron in every single statistic that season. Lebron may have stat padded in the Finals, but if you look at the bigger picture Davis was the better scorer and rebounder. And defender.

Kinda like how Doncic leads Leborn in every imaginable stat now.

[Full Court]

You also failed to mention that in the bubble year, Anthony Davis lead Lebron in every single statistic that season. Lebron may have stat padded in the Finals, but if you look at the bigger picture Davis was the better scorer and rebounder. And defender.

Kinda like how Doncic leads Leborn in every imaginable stat now.

Not true. Lebron leads in turnovers.

:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

There's zero arguments whatsoever that Lebron is a bigger winner than Bill, the goat, or Kareem. Hell, he doesn't have much of a conversation being above Magic in that regard.

A prime Kareem didn't elevate teams like prime LeBron did. Lakers were a joke before Magic got there. Kareem wasn't even the 3rd best player on his team for his last two titles.

Magic had a shit ton of HOF players around him his entire career. Imagine if LeBron had the 2012 & 2013 Miami cast for 10+ years, that was Magic's career.

Hard to use Magic/Kareem because they both had each other along with other players like Worthy, Cooper, Wilkes, Nixon, Scott, McAdoo etc

[sdot_thadon]

So how is Lebron better than Jordan if Jordan won more MVPS and FMVPS and more chips I may add? count.

The same way you assume Jordan is better than Russell under pretty similar circumstances.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

Lebron's FMVP frequency is among the worst ever (4 for 10), and therefore the 4 FMVP's is a product of simply getting extra chances by being gifted his Finals appearances (via "decisions" and collusions).

[ArbitraryWater]

*5 FMVPs, when will people adjust for 2015?

[3ba11]

*5 FMVPs, when will people adjust for 2015?


FMVP frequencies

Lebron.... 4 for 10
MJ.......... 6 for 6


Lebron was gifted Finals appearances, and then lost more than anyone ever has on that level... So his career is a complete sham.

[StrongLurk]

FMVP frequencies

Lebron.... 4 for 10
MJ.......... 6 for 6


Lebron was gifted Finals appearances, and then lost more than anyone ever has on that level... So his career is a complete sham.

These posts don't say anything different that this thread. In fact, you are validating my thread, because guess what, you can't find anyone with more FMVPs than Jordan and Lebron. :lol

So yeah, thanks for agreeing with me.

[StrongLurk]

So how is Lebron better than Jordan if Jordan won more MVPS and FMVPS and more chips I may add? This is the problem. You claim that Lebron is better than everyone because he has more MVPS and FMVPS but than when Jordan is ahead of him in that department, now you're gonna come up with some excuse on why that doesn't count.

I've never said Lebron is better than Jordan. In fact, this very thread, posits that Jordan is 1 and Lebron is 2 in the 3-point era. Basically Lebron is the clear cut GOAT of the modern era, but if we just look at the entire 3-point era, than Jordan is GOAT.

[3ba11]

These posts don't say anything different that this thread. In fact, you are validating my thread, because guess what, you can't find anyone with more FMVPs than Jordan and Lebron. :lol

So yeah, thanks for agreeing with me.


Lebron is bad at getting FMVP's with only 4 for 10 frequency - so just imagine if he wasn't gifted so many Finals appearances - he would have no FMVP

[StrongLurk]

Lebron is bad at getting FMVP's with only 4 for 10 frequency - so just imagine if he wasn't gifted so many Finals appearances - he would have no FMVP

Your comment is completely nonsensical because no one else in history has gotten 4 except MJ. You are acting like FMVPs are as basic as all-star appearances or something lol.

The fact is Lebron has the most FMVPs post-MJ and Lebron was also playing at a historic level when he earned them. There is no getting around this :no:.

You've posted a bunch in this thread because you are clearly triggered by these facts and you've been bodybagged with each of your dumbass coping posts. I'm getting second hand embarrassment at you still trying to do...whatever is your doing...in this thread.

[Walk on Water]

*5 FMVPs, when will people adjust for 2015?

Okay so he shot 39 percent. And won 2 games. In 82 games, winning 33 percent is not even going to get you the Play In spot in the East.

[Walk on Water]

Your comment is completely nonsensical because no one else in history has gotten 4 except MJ. You are acting like FMVPs are as basic as all-star appearances or something lol.

The fact is Lebron has the most FMVPs post-MJ and Lebron was also playing at a historic level when he earned them. There is no getting around this :no:.

You've posted a bunch in this thread because you are clearly triggered by these facts and you've been bodybagged with each of your dumbass coping posts. I'm getting second hand embarrassment at you still trying to do...whatever is your doing...in this thread.



Yea but the problem is that you aren't taking facts into context. You are dismissing them and just saying Lebron played at a historical level when he earned them and there's not getting around this. There's no getting around this because you're not willing to look at context.

I could do the same thing as you and say KD is 2 and 1 against Lebron in getting the FMVP. And if KD had been on the Warriors team the entire run he could have also got 4 FMVP. But then you would want us to bring things into context. So what I'm saying is your claims might be true in one aspect but lack any kind of substance. If Lebron doesn't have D Wade, there's probably 2 less FMVP because you have to win the championship in order to get the FMVP.

Furthermore, there was also no FMVP before 1969, so Bill Russell could have won 4 as well. Again, you mention certain records, but without context and fail to mention that Lebron also lost as the favorite 7 times while having a lot of help.

And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, Jordan still has 6 FMVP. Do you really Lebron is gonna pass him and get 7 FMVP? He would have to play a total of 25 years and would have to win 3 more in a row. I'm sorry to break it to you, but that will never happen.

[Walk on Water]

A prime Kareem didn't elevate teams like prime LeBron did. Lakers were a joke before Magic got there. Kareem wasn't even the 3rd best player on his team for his last two titles.

Magic had a shit ton of HOF players around him his entire career. Imagine if LeBron had the 2012 & 2013 Miami cast for 10+ years, that was Magic's career.

Hard to use Magic/Kareem because they both had each other along with other players like Worthy, Cooper, Wilkes, Nixon, Scott, McAdoo etc



Hold on. I'm just gonna say one thing. You said Lakers were a joke before Magic got there. Lakers were also a joke when Lebron got there. They didn't win until they got Anthony Davis. Davis lead the team in scoring, rebounds, blocks for many years and played the best defense.

You do realize that Davis has been better than Lebron most of the time on the Lakers, right? You do understand that he's the better all around player just like Doncic is better than Lebron now?

[sdot_thadon]

Yea but the problem is that you aren't taking facts into context. You are dismissing them and just saying Lebron played at a historical level when he earned them and there's not getting around this. There's no getting around this because you're not willing to look at context.

I could do the same thing as you and say KD is 2 and 1 against Lebron in getting the FMVP. And if KD had been on the Warriors team the entire run he could have also got 4 FMVP. But then you would want us to bring things into context. So what I'm saying is your claims might be true in one aspect but lack any kind of substance. If Lebron doesn't have D Wade, there's probably 2 less FMVP because you have to win the championship in order to get the FMVP.

Furthermore, there was also no FMVP before 1969, so Bill Russell could have won 4 as well. Again, you mention certain records, but without context and fail to mention that Lebron also lost as the favorite 7 times while having a lot of help.

And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, Jordan still has 6 FMVP. Do you really Lebron is gonna pass him and get 7 FMVP? He would have to play a total of 25 years and would have to win 3 more in a row. I'm sorry to break it to you, but that will never happen.
Lebron's got 4 FMVP and no one else but Mj has that many, this is historical fact. Yes he had Wade, just like almost all other greats get to have at least a good teammate next to them.

Russell could have as many as 8 fmvp, hes the dumb **** counting goat for sure, which is where guys like you and 3ball fall. Yet you dont have Russell as goat do you? Care to explain why hes not above Mj?

[1987_Lakers]

Hold on. I'm just gonna say one thing. You said Lakers were a joke before Magic got there. Lakers were also a joke when Lebron got there. They didn't win until they got Anthony Davis. Davis lead the team in scoring, rebounds, blocks for many years and played the best defense.

You do realize that Davis has been better than Lebron most of the time on the Lakers, right? You do understand that he's the better all around player just like Doncic is better than Lebron now?

LeBron got injured in the 2019 season which many people disregard. Before his injury, they were 20-14 to start the year with LeBron after being 35-47 the year before. Not to mention this was a 33 year old LeBron elevating.

A prime and healthy 28 year old Kareem in his first season with the Lakers had a losing record. Obviously his team was dog shit, but we have seen LeBron elevate teams who were dogshit like the 2006-2010 Cavs & 2018 Cavs in ways Kareem never did.

As a matter of fact in Kareem's final season with the Bucks they were 35-30 with Kareem, the next season without him they were 38-44. The team saw little drop off. Every team LeBron left saw a significant drop off.

[Walk on Water]

Lebron's got 4 FMVP and no one else but Mj has that many, this is historical fact. Yes he had Wade, just like almost all other greats get to have at least a good teammate next to them.

Russell could have as many as 8 fmvp, hes the dumb **** counting goat for sure, which is where guys like you and 3ball fall. Yet you dont have Russell as goat do you? Care to explain why hes not above Mj?



You didn't really answer any of my points and just took into a different direction. Yes, it's a historical fact but it's also a historical fact that Lebron had some of the worst losses in Finals history. Those aren't historical facts too? Those negate much of his success, how can they not? They don't count, dude? Context doesn't count, either?

But the thing is, not only did Lebron have Wade, he also had Bosh. When things got tough, not only did Bron get to play with Irving, he got to play with Love. Not to mention he played in the weakest Eastern Conference, but also got to pick his role players and coaches, (that's a whole different discussion.)

As far as Russell being above MJ or not is another whole discussion but this one is about Lebron. Try to stay on topic as much as possible.

[Walk on Water]

LeBron got injured in the 2019 season which many people disregard. Before his injury, they were 20-14 to start the year with LeBron after being 35-47 the year before. Not to mention this was a 33 year old LeBron elevating.

A prime and healthy 28 year old Kareem in his first season with the Lakers had a losing record. Obviously his team was dog shit, but we have seen LeBron elevate teams who were dogshit like the 2006-2010 Cavs & 2018 Cavs in ways Kareem never did.

As a matter of fact in Kareem's final season with the Bucks they were 35-30 with Kareem, the next season without him they were 38-44. The team saw little drop off. Every team LeBron left saw a significant drop off.



He may have got injured in the 2019 season, but I doubt their record was much better than 500 even with him playing and you need to do much better than that to make the playoffs in the West. 20-14 is decent but not great by any means and it was just the start of the year.

The 2006-2010 Cavs were pretty decent teams. They were some of the top defensive squads in the league. Just because they didn't have superstars doesn't mean they don't deserve some credit. And what do you mean 2018 Cavs? Didn't they get swept in the Finals? By some record margin? Record margin? I don't remember him elevating them in any jaw dropping way. They even had Kevin Love still. He would have been a star in the league still but got worse because of Lebron.

[1987_Lakers]

Decent teams? Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron from 2008-2010. I shouldn't even have to explain 2018, Love was super inconsistent and LeBron came back from being down 3-2 vs Boston with Love missing games 6 and 7.

Anyways, your whole point about Kareem just got destroyed.

[StrongLurk]

Yea but the problem is that you aren't taking facts into context. You are dismissing them and just saying Lebron played at a historical level when he earned them and there's not getting around this. There's no getting around this because you're not willing to look at context.

I could do the same thing as you and say KD is 2 and 1 against Lebron in getting the FMVP. And if KD had been on the Warriors team the entire run he could have also got 4 FMVP. But then you would want us to bring things into context. So what I'm saying is your claims might be true in one aspect but lack any kind of substance. If Lebron doesn't have D Wade, there's probably 2 less FMVP because you have to win the championship in order to get the FMVP.

Furthermore, there was also no FMVP before 1969, so Bill Russell could have won 4 as well. Again, you mention certain records, but without context and fail to mention that Lebron also lost as the favorite 7 times while having a lot of help.

And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, Jordan still has 6 FMVP. Do you really Lebron is gonna pass him and get 7 FMVP? He would have to play a total of 25 years and would have to win 3 more in a row. I'm sorry to break it to you, but that will never happen.

KD's body simply couldn't hold up like Lebron's, and KD has even worse intangibles, so your KD point is refuted.

Also Bill Russell doesn't matter because we have been talking about 3-point era.

How did you type so much and literally none of it has any substance?

[FilmyCogTurner]

LeBron got injured in the 2019 season which many people disregard. Before his injury, they were 20-14 to start the year with LeBron after being 35-47 the year before. Not to mention this was a 33 year old LeBron elevating.

A prime and healthy 28 year old Kareem in his first season with the Lakers had a losing record. Obviously his team was dog shit, but we have seen LeBron elevate teams who were dogshit like the 2006-2010 Cavs & 2018 Cavs in ways Kareem never did.

As a matter of fact in Kareem's final season with the Bucks they were 35-30 with Kareem, the next season without him they were 38-44. The team saw little drop off. Every team LeBron left saw a significant drop off.

Lebron may have excelled at elevating mediocre rosters but the real crux of the argument is what he did with stacked rosters and the results considering the level of talent he had around him was not that great.

Not four, not five, not six, not seven...

[StrongLurk]

You didn't really answer any of my points and just took into a different direction. Yes, it's a historical fact but it's also a historical fact that Lebron had some of the worst losses in Finals history. Those aren't historical facts too? Those negate much of his success, how can they not? They don't count, dude? Context doesn't count, either?

But the thing is, not only did Lebron have Wade, he also had Bosh. When things got tough, not only did Bron get to play with Irving, he got to play with Love. Not to mention he played in the weakest Eastern Conference, but also got to pick his role players and coaches, (that's a whole different discussion.)

As far as Russell being above MJ or not is another whole discussion but this one is about Lebron. Try to stay on topic as much as possible.


Are you really trying to claim FINALS losses negate finals wins? Is that a serious argument? How do reconcile losses before the finals? Does that remove multiple championships?

You are dumb.

[StrongLurk]

The Lebron haters are so sad in this thread.

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

Me: Lebron is the second best player in the 3-point era.

Lebron haters: NOoOoOOo, LeBron's BAD, not even top 10 all time. NoOOOOOoOo.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron may have excelled at elevating mediocre rosters but the real crux of the argument is what he did with stacked rosters and the results considering the level of talent he had around him was not that great.

Not four, not five, not six, not seven...

LeBron in Miami was an underdog in 2 of the 4 finals. He won 2.

LeBron with the Cavs was an underdog in EVERY Finals appearance. He won 1.

If anything, he overachieved.

[Axe]

So he has three more than that cuck gerbil.


OP is an example when you have a strong combination of idolization and mental illness.
https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPZqPRPHIF2xVI5uiUFQ7DcZyo3SNqM MQAlw&usqp=CAU)

[sdot_thadon]

You didn't really answer any of my points and just took into a different direction. Yes, it's a historical fact but it's also a historical fact that Lebron had some of the worst losses in Finals history. Those aren't historical facts too? Those negate much of his success, how can they not? They don't count, dude? Context doesn't count, either?

But the thing is, not only did Lebron have Wade, he also had Bosh. When things got tough, not only did Bron get to play with Irving, he got to play with Love. Not to mention he played in the weakest Eastern Conference, but also got to pick his role players and coaches, (that's a whole different discussion.)

As far as Russell being above MJ or not is another whole discussion but this one is about Lebron. Try to stay on topic as much as possible.

So your answer is......,no answer. Thought so. If the logic doesn't hold up both ways its not a good take. Lebron has some of the worst losses facing some of the greatest teams. The boxing fan in me finds that respectable. Losing is an integral part of sports. Every one doesn't always win. Maybe they lose at different stages....but they all lose.

And yeah Lebron got to play with other great players after a dry 1st run of his career. Some guys were drafted with onto teams with other greats. Some were on teams that drafted or traded for other good players. Lebron just got to his good rosters with a different path. Of all those guys you named, its crazy that only one of them was able to win a chip independent of Lebron and it took another top 5 all-time guy on his team to do so. Funny how that works.

[FilmyCogTurner]

LeBron in Miami was an underdog in 2 of the 4 finals. He won 2.

LeBron with the Cavs was an underdog in EVERY Finals appearance. He won 1.

If anything, he overachieved.

You're not getting it.

If you're underdog with that much talent you're doing something wrong.

Say for example you had a season of races between various models of BMW's and in that mix is Pagani Huayra (a clear cut favorite), if over the course of the year the Pagani does not live up to expectations but manages to make it to the final race and due to the underachieving record over the course of the year the Pagani is now considered an underdog - who here is at fault?

So the question is, why could Lebron not organize the talent he had (ie three franchise players X2 different scenarios) and put together an indisputable juggernaut team? The answer is obvious and not to be rude, you must be really daft or young.

[StrongLurk]

You're not getting it.

If you're underdog with that much talent you're doing something wrong.

Say for example you had a season of races between various models of BMW's and in that mix is Pagani Huayra (a clear cut favorite), if over the course of the year the Pagani does not live up to expectations but manages to make it to the final race and due to the underachieving record over the course of the year the Pagani is now considered an underdog - who here is at fault?

So the question is, why could Lebron not organize the talent he had (ie three franchise players X2 different scenarios) and put together an indisputable juggernaut team? The answer is obvious and not to be rude, you must be really daft or young.

2011 is Lebron's fault.
2012 won
2013 won
2014 Heat were a shell of themselves at that point outside of Lebron.
2015 no Kyrie/Love
2016 won despite Love playing injured/missing games altogether
2017 lost to most stacked team of all time
2018 Kyrie left, made finals still, again lost to same ultra stacked Warriors.

You are making things more lopsided for Lebron in your own head, especially during 2015-2018. During that time, Lebron ONLY had two other healthy franchise players in the 2017 finals, but the 2017 Warriors are the best/most stacked team of all time. Everyone loses to them, and Lebron still had 34/12/10 on uber efficiency in those finals.

Lebron deserves major shit for 2011, but he was literally fantastic in the playoffs/finals after that.

[1987_Lakers]

You're not getting it.

If you're underdog with that much talent you're doing something wrong..

Only season you could fault him is 2011.

What you don't understand is that the 2012-2019 era was littered with some of the greatest teams in NBA History, teams LeBron had to face

2014 Spurs - GOAT ball movement team, LeBron's supporting cast was on their final legs.

2015-2018 Warriors - One of the best teams of all time. LeBron was still able to beat them in 2016 with them winning 73 games. in 2015 they had no Kyrie and Love. in 2017 the Warriors added KD making them the GOAT team. in 2018 LeBron was without Kyrie.

[tpols]

You're not getting it.

If you're underdog with that much talent you're doing something wrong.

Say for example you had a season of races between various models of BMW's and in that mix is Pagani Huayra (a clear cut favorite), if over the course of the year the Pagani does not live up to expectations but manages to make it to the final race and due to the underachieving record over the course of the year the Pagani is now considered an underdog - who here is at fault?

So the question is, why could Lebron not organize the talent he had (ie three franchise players X2 different scenarios) and put together an indisputable juggernaut team? The answer is obvious and not to be rude, you must be really daft or young.

Lebrons teams were all pre season title favorites.

Either way, its childish to use FMVPs as the magnum opus of "winning".

Titles as a superstar is winning bottom line. And MJ, Russell, Magic all have more. I think Lebron is tied with Kobe, Curry, and Kareem @ 4.

[dankok8]

LeBron got injured in the 2019 season which many people disregard. Before his injury, they were 20-14 to start the year with LeBron after being 35-47 the year before. Not to mention this was a 33 year old LeBron elevating.

A prime and healthy 28 year old Kareem in his first season with the Lakers had a losing record. Obviously his team was dog shit, but we have seen LeBron elevate teams who were dogshit like the 2006-2010 Cavs & 2018 Cavs in ways Kareem never did.

As a matter of fact in Kareem's final season with the Bucks they were 35-30 with Kareem, the next season without him they were 38-44. The team saw little drop off. Every team LeBron left saw a significant drop off.

Kareem changed teams through a trade so the Lakers lost 3 starters to obtain Kareem and the Bucks got them. Thus you can't compare team records before and after. The Bucks roster got better after the trade and the Lakers one got much worse. When Kareem missed games with the 1975 Bucks and 1978 Lakers and the roster stayed the same, the drop off was huge.

And Lebron still got injured in 2019. Injuries are part of the game and we don't get to ignore them. Bottom line is that from 2018 to 2019, the Lakers improved by a measly 0.11 SRS despite adding Lebron. What ifs are pointless because him getting injured actually happened. Him not getting injured didn't happen.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebrons teams were all pre season title favorites.

Shaq-Kobe Lakers were pre-season favorites to win it all from every season from 1999-2004, excluding 2000. That's 5 seasons out of 6. They "failed" to reach expectations in '99, '03, & '04. In the '99 & '03 seasons in particular, the Spurs were the betting favorites to win it all once the playoffs rolled around. Nobody gives a shit about preseason odds and them losing those years wasn't some underachivement. It's all low IQ 3ball garbage. Nobody knows how good each team will be until the season starts.

[1987_Lakers]

And Lebron still got injured in 2019. Injuries are part of the game and we don't get to ignore them. Bottom line is that from 2018 to 2019, the Lakers improved by a measly 0.11 SRS despite adding Lebron. What ifs are pointless because him getting injured actually happened. Him not getting injured didn't happen.

Injuries are a legit excuse. LeBron only played 34 games that season where he was 100% healthy.

And LeBron played with bums in Cleveland, Kareem has no excuse. Kareem at least had Gail Goodrich & Lucius Allen in his first season with the Lakers, dependable players. A peak Kareem to lead them to a losing record? LOL

LeBron was already mid 30's when he joined the Lakers and still elevated them when he was healthy.

[dankok8]

Injuries are a legit excuse. LeBron only played 34 games that season where he was 100% healthy.

And LeBron played with bums in Cleveland, Kareem has no excuse. Kareem at least had Gail Goodrich & Lucius Allen in his first season with the Lakers, dependable players. A peak Kareem to lead them to a losing record? LOL

LeBron was already mid 30's when he joined the Lakers and still elevated them when he was healthy.

Injuries are not a legit excuse when it's Lebron's own injury. I might understand if a teammate gets injured to give him a pass.

Health is part of the game. Ask Kawhi and Bill Walton.

[1987_Lakers]

Injuries are not a legit excuse when it's Lebron's own injury. I might understand if a teammate gets injured to give him a pass.

Health is part of the game. Ask Kawhi and Bill Walton.

Yet, here you are making "What if" threads about players if they didn't get injured.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?518632-Chris-Paul-Without-Playoff-Injuries/page5&p=14938949#post14938949
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510117-What-was-Kawhi-s-ceiling-without-all-the-injuries

[StrongLurk]

Lebrons teams were all pre season title favorites.

Either way, its childish to use FMVPs as the magnum opus of "winning".

Titles as a superstar is winning bottom line. And MJ, Russell, Magic all have more. I think Lebron is tied with Kobe, Curry, and Kareem @ 4.

Sorry buddy, can't have teammates dropping FMVPs on your head. Magic literally had TWO other teammates win FMVP on his team lol. Kareem too. KD cucked Curry two years in a row when Curry couldn't stand up to Lebron, and lol at Kobe getting 3 peat FMVPs dunked on by Shaq.

MJ and Lebron have the most FMVPs, AND they never had a teammate win FMVP over them. That's no coincidence.

[Wally450]

Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.

I know this post is a year old, but you can't say he loses that Finals if Kyrie misses that shot. It was a tie game. Both teams were cheeks down the stretch of that game.

Also, who hit the 3 when the score was 94-89 to put the Heat in position for Ray Allen's shot?

Its easy to say he got "bailed out" without proper context.

[tpols]

Shaq-Kobe Lakers were pre-season favorites to win it all from every season from 1999-2004, excluding 2000. That's 5 seasons out of 6. They "failed" to reach expectations in '99, '03, & '04. In the '99 & '03 seasons in particular, the Spurs were the betting favorites to win it all once the playoffs rolled around. Nobody gives a shit about preseason odds and them losing those years wasn't some underachivement. It's all low IQ 3ball garbage. Nobody knows how good each team will be until the season starts.


And thats exactly how it should've been. Kobe Shaq Lakers were the best and they proved it over that stretch with a 3peat and one of most dominant title runs ever in 2001. So it lines up with that as well.

[1987_Lakers]

And thats exactly how it should've been. Kobe Shaq Lakers were the best and they proved it over that stretch with a 3peat and one of most dominant title runs ever in 2001. So it lines up with that as well.

I'm guessing the Rockets should have made the Finals in '87 over the 65 win Lakers team with Magic and showtime at their absolute peak.
:lol

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1987_preseason_odds.html

[Full Court]

Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.

This is the truth, no matter how much Bronie fluffers try to live in denial.

Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

[Walk on Water]

I know this post is a year old, but you can't say he loses that Finals if Kyrie misses that shot. It was a tie game. Both teams were cheeks down the stretch of that game.

Also, who hit the 3 when the score was 94-89 to put the Heat in position for Ray Allen's shot?

Its easy to say he got "bailed out" without proper context.


But if we're gonna put everything into context, you have to realize he is very fortunate to have 4 Finals wins. However, in the Finals that he lost, it was never close. We're talking about series where he got blown out in record margins. So you can't have it both ways. You can't eat your cake and have it too. You have to look at the positives and negatives and in Lebron's case unfortunately there are more negatives. And no, you cannot use the excuse that he had no help.

[Walk on Water]

So your answer is......,no answer. Thought so. If the logic doesn't hold up both ways its not a good take. Lebron has some of the worst losses facing some of the greatest teams. The boxing fan in me finds that respectable. Losing is an integral part of sports. Every one doesn't always win. Maybe they lose at different stages....but they all lose.

And yeah Lebron got to play with other great players after a dry 1st run of his career. Some guys were drafted with onto teams with other greats. Some were on teams that drafted or traded for other good players. Lebron just got to his good rosters with a different path. Of all those guys you named, its crazy that only one of them was able to win a chip independent of Lebron and it took another top 5 all-time guy on his team to do so. Funny how that works.



These are all mental gymnastics that you are playing. Please redo what you wrote and write something a little more convincing.

[Walk on Water]

Are you really trying to claim FINALS losses negate finals wins? Is that a serious argument? How do reconcile losses before the finals? Does that remove multiple championships?

You are dumb.

No, you are dumb my friend. You are the one trying to explain away a loser, not ME.

If I make it to the Finals 100 times, but win 2 times or whatever many times, that doesn't exactly make me the best or 2nd best of all time. But according to you, no amount of Finals losses negates finals wins. I'm not saying it REMOVES the championships, but it does put a stain on your career the more you lose, plus the AMOUNT you lose by and Lebron has lost by a lot. There's no point in even playing the game, if losses don't count and you only count wins.

[Walk on Water]

Sorry buddy, can't have teammates dropping FMVPs on your head. Magic literally had TWO other teammates win FMVP on his team lol. Kareem too. KD cucked Curry two years in a row when Curry couldn't stand up to Lebron, and lol at Kobe getting 3 peat FMVPs dunked on by Shaq.

MJ and Lebron have the most FMVPs, AND they never had a teammate win FMVP over them. That's no coincidence.


And that is the difference between Lebron and other champions. Lebron would rather have more FMVPs and less rings, whereas other players are willing to play a team game and possibly sacrifice a couple of FMVPS. If Lebron had 6 chips but only 3 FMVP, he would be more successful than he is now.

But you are too stubborn and child minded to understand this. That's why Lebron is 4 and 6. A loser. He's literally competing against his own teammates like you said.

And the problem with comparing him to Jordan, is Jordan has both more FMVP AND rings than him. And more MVPS. Jordan is better than Lebron and there's no path for Lebron to win more FMVP or rings than him. Plus Jordan never lost in the Finals. Lebron has even more losses than wins.

[FilmyCogTurner]

2011 is Lebron's fault.
2012 won
2013 won
2014 Heat were a shell of themselves at that point outside of Lebron.
2015 no Kyrie/Love
2016 won despite Love playing injured/missing games altogether
2017 lost to most stacked team of all time
2018 Kyrie left, made finals still, again lost to same ultra stacked Warriors.

You are making things more lopsided for Lebron in your own head, especially during 2015-2018. During that time, Lebron ONLY had two other healthy franchise players in the 2017 finals, but the 2017 Warriors are the best/most stacked team of all time. Everyone loses to them, and Lebron still had 34/12/10 on uber efficiency in those finals.

Lebron deserves major shit for 2011, but he was literally fantastic in the playoffs/finals after that.

Not even discussing championships won or lost, with the talent Lebron had around him putting together multiple dominant super teams should have been within reason.

Not to sound like 3ball but his lack of shot creation and off ball ability was a team killer. He was not skilled or intelligent enough to manufacture a powerful offensive system, instead it was what's the easiest shortcut available. He wants all the glory but non of the actual hard work that goes into it.

I will say this, in the 2015 finals without Kyrie/Love I did find Lebron impressive. He facilitated the offense from the post way more than I had ever seen and I thought he had figured it out that he needs to make roots there. Following years it was not the case although he did make for himself a pretty decent fallaway jumper. And this year with Luka I had to respect how he paired himself. Lebron spotting up for corners 3s was a surprise and he played that role well.




Only season you could fault him is 2011.

What you don't understand is that the 2012-2019 era was littered with some of the greatest teams in NBA History, teams LeBron had to face

2014 Spurs - GOAT ball movement team, LeBron's supporting cast was on their final legs.

2015-2018 Warriors - One of the best teams of all time. LeBron was still able to beat them in 2016 with them winning 73 games. in 2015 they had no Kyrie and Love. in 2017 the Warriors added KD making them the GOAT team. in 2018 LeBron was without Kyrie.

That's what I'm saying. The GOAT should be able to engineer his own version of Spurs basketball, not stack talent and win because he has other superstars to carry the load. When your 3rd option is a franchise player in his own right that is a massive upswing of talent and he had that both with the Heat and Cavs.

2016 is a great win for sure but let's not pretend he took some trash roster and pulled off a major upset. He took his stacked team and went up against another stacked team, someone has to win.

2017 and 2018, no one was defeating the Dubs but the point still stands, if Lebron is as great as you think he is, with the talent level he had we should have seen some major major dominant teams from him.

[Walk on Water]

Not even discussing championships won or lost, with the talent Lebron had around him putting together multiple dominant super teams should have been within reason.

Not to sound like 3ball but his lack of shot creation and off ball ability was a team killer. He was not skilled or intelligent enough to manufacture a powerful offensive system, instead it was what's the easiest shortcut available. He wants all the glory but non of the actual hard work that goes into it.

I will say this, in the 2015 finals without Kyrie/Love I did find Lebron impressive. He facilitated the offense from the post way more than I had ever seen and I thought he had figured it out that he needs to make roots there. Following years it was not the case although he did make for himself a pretty decent fallaway jumper. And this year with Luka I had to respect how he paired himself. Lebron spotting up for corners 3s was a surprise and he played that role well.





That's what I'm saying. The GOAT should be able to engineer his own version of Spurs basketball, not stack talent and win because he has other superstars to carry the load. When your 3rd option is a franchise player in his own right that is a massive upswing of talent and he had that both with the Heat and Cavs.

2016 is a great win for sure but let's not pretend he took some trash roster and pulled off a major upset. He took his stacked team and went up against another stacked team, someone has to win.

2017 and 2018, no one was defeating the Dubs but the point still stands, if Lebron is as great as you think he is, with the talent level he had we should have seen some major major dominant teams from him.


EXACTLY. It's not bad that Lebron lost those 2 Finals, but it's the way he lost them. He couldn't even put up a fight. And if he is as great as they say he is, we at least expect him to put up a fight with the talent he had around him.

[1987_Lakers]

2016 is a great win for sure but let's not pretend he took some trash roster and pulled off a major upset. He took his stacked team and went up against another stacked team, someone has to win.

2017 and 2018, no one was defeating the Dubs but the point still stands, if Lebron is as great as you think he is, with the talent level he had we should have seen some major major dominant teams from him.

We saw him take down the 73 win Warriors team and a dynasty 2013 Spurs team. Both teams are better than anything MJ ever beat in the Finals.

Your criticism of him not playing on major dominant teams doesn't make sense. He played on a Miami team that won 66 games, won 27 straight games at one point.

Put MJ and his bulls in the 2012-2019 era and he does not win 6 chips.

[Walk on Water]

We saw him take down the 73 win Warriors team and a dynasty 2013 Spurs team. Both teams are better than anything MJ ever beat in the Finals.

Your criticism of him not playing on major dominant teams doesn't make sense. He played on a Miami team that won 66 games, won 27 straight games at one point.

Put MJ and his bulls in the 2012-2019 era and he does not win 6 chips.


Even if he took down a team better than MJ faced, that doesn't mean everything. If MJ never faced a team like that, how could you expect him to do something that he is not given the opportunity to do? And the Spurs dominated Lebron 2 out of 3 and barely lost 1, so that's not exactly you should be bragging about. He also lost 3 out of 4 to the Warriors so even though it's nice he has 1 ring out of that battle, it isn't the be all end all.

And when you say put MJ on the Bulls in the 2012-2019 era and say he doesn't win 6 chips, you don't know that. You're just writing that and making a lot of assumptions. Even if he didn't win 6 chips in those 7 years, he certainly would not lose to Dallas. He certainly would not shoot 35 percent on 6 turnovers to the Spurs. And he still wins more than Lebron. So again, you keep going around in circles but you're not making any sense.

[1987_Lakers]

And when you say put MJ on the Bulls in the 2012-2019 era and say he doesn't win 6 chips, you don't know that. You're just writing that and making a lot of assumptions. Even if he didn't win 6 chips in those 7 years, he certainly would not lose to Dallas. He certainly would not shoot 35 percent on 6 turnovers to the Spurs. And he still wins more than Lebron. So again, you keep going around in circles but you're not making any sense.

It's a common fact.

[sdot_thadon]

These are all mental gymnastics that you are playing. Please redo what you wrote and write something a little more convincing.

Aka you ain't got shit to come back with. Thats what happens when you enter debates with your heart and not your mind. Every thread you've entered lately has turned into a gangbang of posters having their way with you.

[sdot_thadon]

It's a common fact.

Plus when Mj faced teams like that, he went 0-2. Anybody remember what his record against the Pistons is......? 1-3

[dankok8]

Yet, here you are making "What if" threads about players if they didn't get injured.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?518632-Chris-Paul-Without-Playoff-Injuries/page5&p=14938949#post14938949
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510117-What-was-Kawhi-s-ceiling-without-all-the-injuries

Yea and...

What if threads are what if threads. It's not reality. I have CP3 and Kawhi way lower on the all time list than if they didn't have injuries.

[Walk on Water]

Aka you ain't got shit to come back with. Thats what happens when you enter debates with your heart and not your mind. Every thread you've entered lately has turned into a gangbang of posters having their way with you.


But you're the one in the losing position, so there's nothing to come back with. Yes there's been a lot of posters but they haven't had their way with me or debunked any of my facts. Like I said you're the one on the losing end of this and you're playing mental gymnastics. But then again, most of Lebron fans are not educated in life and come from a similar background as him. Lebron is not an educated guy just like most of you guys who support him. You probably support him because of his losing failures and you can relate to it. Dumb attracts dumb.

[Walk on Water]

It's a common fact.


No it's not. Just because a Mr. Nobody like you says it is doesn't make it true.

[StrongLurk]

No, you are dumb my friend. You are the one trying to explain away a loser, not ME.

If I make it to the Finals 100 times, but win 2 times or whatever many times, that doesn't exactly make me the best or 2nd best of all time. But according to you, no amount of Finals losses negates finals wins. I'm not saying it REMOVES the championships, but it does put a stain on your career the more you lose, plus the AMOUNT you lose by and Lebron has lost by a lot. There's no point in even playing the game, if losses don't count and you only count wins.

Bro you are legit dumb. This kind of "logic" you are trying to use has been debunked over and over.

Losing in the FINALS doesn't make someone a "loser" in the NBA bro. Literally no player has EVER been judged by losing finals, because most superstar players don't even MAKE the finals ONCE.

You are trying to claim that a guy with 4 championships is a "loser". Hate to break it to you buddy, but in any kind of formal debate, you literally couldn't even get onto the debate stage with such an absurd initial claim. This is the internet so you can post whatever you want, but you are truly a moron with the posts you are making.

Your initial claims about Lebron are so retarded that all following points you make from those claims can be dismissed immediately.

Imagine a 5 mile race with 400 players, and the race has been ran 20 times. One of those runners has won the race 4 times and gotten second place twice. YOU are making the claim that this hypothetical runner is a "loser" because they got second place 6 times and first place 4 times. Do you really not see how dumb your claim sounds?

[StrongLurk]

The Lebron haters are so sad in this thread.

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

Me: Lebron is the second best player in the 3-point era.

Lebron haters: NOoOoOOo, LeBron's BAD, not even top 10 all time. NoOOOOOoOo.

[sdot_thadon]

But you're the one in the losing position, so there's nothing to come back with. Yes there's been a lot of posters but they haven't had their way with me or debunked any of my facts. Like I said you're the one on the losing end of this and you're playing mental gymnastics. But then again, most of Lebron fans are not educated in life and come from a similar background as him. Lebron is not an educated guy just like most of you guys who support him. You probably support him because of his losing failures and you can relate to it. Dumb attracts dumb.

Yeah ok buddy. I directly challenged your statement and you ran from it. Its kinda cute you feel there's anything to be won here though. Supposedly you hate Lebron, yet youre here crying about him constantly. To spend so much energy on something you clearly dislike shows a lack of not only intellectual intelligence but emotional intelligence as well. I'll ask this question one more time slowly for you to keep up.

You watt to know how Lebron can be better than Mj when he has less championships and finals mvps. The answer is the same way Mj can be better than Russell in the same context. You didn't engage the point, whhich was your point, any further because you didn't like the inevitable outcome.

[1987_Lakers]

The funny thing is, you can make an argument as to why MJ > LeBron, but LeBron haters use the dumbest arguments that easily get disproved. Their lack of knowledge in general is funny to see.

[StrongLurk]

The funny thing is, you can make an argument as to why MJ > LeBron, but LeBron haters use the dumbest arguments that easily get disproved. Their lack of knowledge in general is funny to see.

What's crazy is this whole thread is premised on Lebron being the second best player behind MJ...and somehow the Lebron haters turned it into "how can you say Lebron is better than MJ". Their brains are broken from stupidity and Lebron-derangement syndrome.

[sdot_thadon]

The funny thing is, you can make an argument as to why MJ > LeBron, but LeBron haters use the dumbest arguments that easily get disproved. Their lack of knowledge in general is funny to see.

Yes there's way stronger cases to be made than the bs we're getting over and over here. I think these guys get too hot and bothered over the notion that Lebron now has pretty good cases to be made himself. I actually think they are more dedicated to Lebron than the super stans are.

[Walk on Water]

The funny thing is, you can make an argument as to why MJ > LeBron, but LeBron haters use the dumbest arguments that easily get disproved. Their lack of knowledge in general is funny to see.



If that's true, then that bodes even WORSE for Lebron. Because our dumbest arguments are still better than your best arguments on our worst days.

[Walk on Water]

Yes there's way stronger cases to be made than the bs we're getting over and over here. I think these guys get too hot and bothered over the notion that Lebron now has pretty good cases to be made himself. I actually think they are more dedicated to Lebron than the super stans are.



Lebron doesn't have any case. And the sad thing is you know that. It's like one plus one is two. 7 times 7 is 49. 3 minus 2 is 1. These are facts. And the other fact is Lebron has no case.

[Walk on Water]

Yeah ok buddy. I directly challenged your statement and you ran from it. Its kinda cute you feel there's anything to be won here though. Supposedly you hate Lebron, yet youre here crying about him constantly. To spend so much energy on something you clearly dislike shows a lack of not only intellectual intelligence but emotional intelligence as well. I'll ask this question one more time slowly for you to keep up.

You watt to know how Lebron can be better than Mj when he has less championships and finals mvps. The answer is the same way Mj can be better than Russell in the same context. You didn't engage the point, whhich was your point, any further because you didn't like the inevitable outcome.


Yea but the problem with what you just wrote is you could use that for anyone if you're gonna play that game. If MJ is better than Russell, that doesn't mean you can use the case that Lebron is greater than Jordan. Jordan played better defense than Lebron, that's already half the game right there. There really isn't anything tangible that you could use to say Lebron is better than Jordan without leaving out context. Jordan is better than Lebron is pretty much every aspect of the game that is actually important to winning and dominating. So you're being disingeniuos here and you know that you are. Lebron doesn't actually have a case for Goat. He's a good player. I'm not saying he's Kwame Brown or anything like that. I'm not hating on him or anything like that. But you know what you are doing with these mental gymnastics. If you knew me in real life, I'm one of the most honest persons you could ever meet. Too honest, to a default.

[Full Court]

The Lebron haters are so sad in this thread.

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

Me: Lebron is the second best player in the 3-point era.

Lebron haters: NOoOoOOo, LeBron's BAD, not even top 10 all time. NoOOOOOoOo.

Lebron: most post-Jordan FMVPs.

Lebron: most choke jobs in NBA history.






:lebroncry:

[Walk on Water]

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023734]Bro you are legit dumb. This kind of "logic" you are trying to use has been debunked over and over.

[B]If you really think I'm legit dumb, you are dumber than a box of rocks. You're an idiot. A literal moron. Low life and trash, uneducated just like the majority of Lebron fans. No all of your Lebron claims have been debunked you moron.

Losing in the FINALS doesn't make someone a "loser" in the NBA bro. Literally no player has EVER been judged by losing finals, because most superstar players don't even MAKE the finals ONCE.

Yes losing in the Finals enough times makes you a loser. And MOST legit top tier superstars have won the finals dude. And that's for most sports. There are exceptions. Are you serious? Go read a book man. This is dumb. You're dumb.

You are trying to claim that a guy with 4 championships is a "loser". Hate to break it to you buddy, but in any kind of formal debate, you literally couldn't even get onto the debate stage with such an absurd initial claim. This is the internet so you can post whatever you want, but you are truly a moron with the posts you are making.

2 things can be true at once. Losing 6 times in the Finals kinda makes you kind of a failure buddy. In general it does. Hate to break it to you but you are an idiot. But I guess as a Lebron fan you wouldn't know the difference between winning and losing and you're emotional about it.

Your initial claims about Lebron are so retarded that all following points you make from those claims can be dismissed immediately.

They are factually true and have NOT been debunked. He lost 6 times dude. Lost badly. You can't debunk that. And yes he had a lot of help. Just stop, moron.

Imagine a 5 mile race with 400 players, and the race has been ran 20 times. One of those runners has won the race 4 times and gotten second place twice. YOU are making the claim that this hypothetical runner is a "loser" because they got second place 6 times and first place 4 times. Do you really not see how dumb your claim sounds?

Uhh..... When you have 7 All Stars and you lose 6 times, you are an absolute failure in compared to the expectation that you set with all the hype and support around you. No I don't see how dumb my claim sounds. Why? I guess because I'm smarter than you. I went to school. Most Jordan fans are smarter than Lebron fans who can't understand that losing 6 times with all that help is not very successful.

[Walk on Water]

By the way.. this thread is 3 stars as of the time of me writing this. Mine was a 5... So you can go head and down vote mine to prove a point.

But for those that say my messages aren't going well, well I'm outnumbering all you Lebron fans with my logic. But according to you none of the bad ratings count because Lebron's losses don't count either.

So you can say I'm not convincing anybody but I'm still outnumbering you guys.

[StrongLurk]

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023734]Bro you are legit dumb. This kind of "logic" you are trying to use has been debunked over and over.

[B]If you really think I'm legit dumb, you are dumber than a box of rocks. You're an idiot. A literal moron. Low life and trash, uneducated just like the majority of Lebron fans. No all of your Lebron claims have been debunked you moron.

Losing in the FINALS doesn't make someone a "loser" in the NBA bro. Literally no player has EVER been judged by losing finals, because most superstar players don't even MAKE the finals ONCE.

Yes losing in the Finals enough times makes you a loser. And MOST legit top tier superstars have won the finals dude. And that's for most sports. There are exceptions. Are you serious? Go read a book man. This is dumb. You're dumb.

You are trying to claim that a guy with 4 championships is a "loser". Hate to break it to you buddy, but in any kind of formal debate, you literally couldn't even get onto the debate stage with such an absurd initial claim. This is the internet so you can post whatever you want, but you are truly a moron with the posts you are making.

2 things can be true at once. Losing 6 times in the Finals kinda makes you kind of a failure buddy. In general it does. Hate to break it to you but you are an idiot. But I guess as a Lebron fan you wouldn't know the difference between winning and losing and you're emotional about it.

Your initial claims about Lebron are so retarded that all following points you make from those claims can be dismissed immediately.

They are factually true and have NOT been debunked. He lost 6 times dude. Lost badly. You can't debunk that. And yes he had a lot of help. Just stop, moron.

Imagine a 5 mile race with 400 players, and the race has been ran 20 times. One of those runners has won the race 4 times and gotten second place twice. YOU are making the claim that this hypothetical runner is a "loser" because they got second place 6 times and first place 4 times. Do you really not see how dumb your claim sounds?

Uhh..... When you have 7 All Stars and you lose 6 times, you are an absolute failure in compared to the expectation that you set with all the hype and support around you. No I don't see how dumb my claim sounds. Why? I guess because I'm smarter than you. I went to school. Most Jordan fans are smarter than Lebron fans who can't understand that losing 6 times with all that help is not very successful.

Okay...you actually are dumb. I can tell you tried hard with this post and yet nothing of substance actually came out of it. It actually feels bad to try to rationalize with you because...you can't understand basic concepts (such as how making the finals is an accomplishment most superstars don't even do, and also you don't understand that losing before the finals is worse than in the finals which means every NBA player, including Jordan, is a "loser" according to your logic).

Here is you below. Have a nice day.

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

Me: Lebron is the second best player in the 3-point era.

Lebron haters: NOoOoOOo, LeBron's BAD, not even top 10 all time. NoOOOOOoOo.

[Full Court]

Walk on Water has been straight up SLAYING Bronie fluffers lately.

You can tell that they're getting really upset. You'd think they'd be used to getting destroyed by now. :lol

[Walk on Water]

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023800]

Okay...you actually are dumb. I can tell you tried hard with this post and yet nothing of substance actually came out of it. It actually feels bad to try to rationalize with you because...you can't understand basic concepts (such as how making the finals is an accomplishment most superstars don't even do, and also you don't understand that losing before the finals is worse than in the finals which means every NBA player, including Jordan, is a "loser" according to your logic).

Here is you below. Have a nice day.

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

Me: Lebron is the second best player in the 3-point era.

Lebron haters: NOoOoOOo, LeBron's BAD, not even top 10 all time. NoOOOOOoOo.


I'm dumb? I killed you man. Absolutely destroyed you and yet you still came at me with the same stats that don't mean too much. I killed you without even having to try. You're an idiot.

[Walk on Water]

Walk on Water has been straight up SLAYING Bronie fluffers lately.

You can tell that they're getting really upset. You'd think they'd be used to getting destroyed by now. :lol



You've been destroying them too.

[1987_Lakers]

Okay...you actually are dumb. I can tell you tried hard with this post and yet nothing of substance actually came out of it. It actually feels bad to try to rationalize with you because...you can't understand basic concepts (such as how making the finals is an accomplishment most superstars don't even do, and also you don't understand that losing before the finals is worse than in the finals which means every NBA player, including Jordan, is a "loser" according to your logic).

Here is you below. Have a nice day.

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

Me: Lebron is the second best player in the 3-point era.

Lebron haters: NOoOoOOo, LeBron's BAD, not even top 10 all time. NoOOOOOoOo.

Destroyed :roll:

[Walk on Water]

Destroyed :roll:



Yup you did that to yourself.

[FilmyCogTurner]

We saw him take down the 73 win Warriors team and a dynasty 2013 Spurs team. Both teams are better than anything MJ ever beat in the Finals.

Your criticism of him not playing on major dominant teams doesn't make sense. He played on a Miami team that won 66 games, won 27 straight games at one point.

Put MJ and his bulls in the 2012-2019 era and he does not win 6 chips.

Buddy, even if true the Dubs and Spurs being superior teams you have to take in context as well. What pieces did Lebron have compared to what MJ had.

The Bulls were a super team in the fact that they played and elevated themselves into one, but on paper outside of having Michael Jordan they were not some overly stacked talent-rich roster like we've seen with Lebrons squads. On the Bulls everyone had to play up, meanwhile it was the exact opposite in Miami/Cleveland, you had third options Bosh/Love having to sacrifice and diminish themselves to make the offense work. That's a huge luxury. And then second bananas, Pippen played the role and played it well, especially in the first three-peat but not any series was he an equal to Jordan. Wade and Kyrie on the other hand, one was a legit superstar and the other could outplay the opposing teams best player while still having Lebron by his side. That is 1A and 1B as it gets while Jordan had to carry the scoring load night in and night out. Pippen could have his good shooting nights and Kukoc would catch fire at times but the difference in what each player had was substantial and the Bulls were able to mitigate those differences through team play and Jordan being Michael ****ing Jordan.

:banghead:

[1987_Lakers]

Buddy, even if true the Dubs and Spurs being superior teams you have to take in context as well. What pieces did Lebron have compared to what MJ had.

The Bulls were a super team in the fact that they played and elevated themselves into one, but on paper outside of having Michael Jordan they were not some overly stacked talent-rich roster like we've seen with Lebrons squads. On the Bulls everyone had to play up, meanwhile it was the exact opposite in Miami/Cleveland, you had third options Bosh/Love having to sacrifice and diminish themselves to make the offense work. That's a huge luxury. And then second bananas, Pippen played the role and played it well, especially in the first three-peat but not any series was he an equal to Jordan. Wade and Kyrie on the other hand, one was a legit superstar and the other could outplay the opposing teams best player while still having Lebron by his side. That is 1A and 1B as it gets while Jordan had to carry the scoring load night in and night out. Pippen could have his good shooting nights and Kukoc would catch fire at times but the difference in what each player had was substantial and the Bulls were able to mitigate those differences through team play and Jordan being Michael ****ing Jordan.

:banghead:

Didn't the Bulls win 55 games without MJ? Every team LeBron left, they missed the playoffs the next season.

Cavs were 4-23 without LeBron from 2014-15 to 2016-17, even though that team had Kyrie and Love.

Heat were 11-11 without LeBron from 2010-11 to 2013-14, even though they had Wade and Bosh

Chicago went 55-27 without MJ in 1994, 3 Bulls players made the All-star that season :oldlol:

:banghead:

[Full Court]

Didn't the Bulls win 55 games without MJ? Every team LeBron left, they missed the playoffs the next season.

Cavs were 4-23 without LeBron from 2014-15 to 2016-17, even though that team had Kyrie and Love.

Heat were 11-11 without LeBron from 2010-11 to 2013-14, even though they had Wade and Bosh

Chicago went 55-27 without MJ in 1994, 3 Bulls players made the All-star that season :oldlol:

:banghead:

That's because Jordan lifted up and elevated his teammates. Made everyone better.

Lebron sucks the life out of a team, uses them all as scapegoats, and leaves his team in a shambles.

All that while racking up the most choke jobs of all time. :lol

[FilmyCogTurner]

and yeah and do you understand why the 94 Bulls were able to reach that record? They built a TEAM in years prior where everyone had a role and contributed to the greater good. Not stand in a corner and wait for spot up threes.

The Bulls maximized their talents and played (sound it out now) BAS-KET-BALL.

[1987_Lakers]

and yeah and do you understand why the 94 Bulls were able to reach that record? They built a TEAM in years prior where everyone had a role and contributed to the greater good. Not stand in a corner and wait for spot up threes.

The Bulls maximized their talents and played (sound it out now) BAS-KET-BALL.

Yea, this is some cop out bullshit.

Fact is, Kyrie and Love never did much on a team where they were the #1 option compared to Pippen. Wade was a shell of himself by 2012, LeBron won 2 chips with a past prime Wade. Prime Pippen was better than all of those guys, he was 3rd in MVP voting in his prime, when did any of LeBron's teammates with the Cavs do that? You are overrating LeBron's supporting cast.

[1987_Lakers]

That's because Jordan lifted up and elevated his teammates. Made everyone better.

From the looks of it, he held them back.

Pippen, Grant, & Armstrong had career years in 1994. :lol

[Walk on Water]

Yea, this is some cop out bullshit.

Fact is, Kyrie and Love never did much on a team where they were the #1 option compared to Pippen. Wade was a shell of himself by 2012, LeBron won 2 chips with a past prime Wade. Prime Pippen was better than all of those guys, he was 3rd in MVP voting in his prime, when did any of LeBron's teammates with the Cavs do that? You are overrating LeBron's supporting cast.



No…. More stupid shit. He killed you.

[Walk on Water]

That's because Jordan lifted up and elevated his teammates. Made everyone better.

Lebron sucks the life out of a team, uses them all as scapegoats, and leaves his team in a shambles.

All that while racking up the most choke jobs of all time. :lol



Exactly.

[1987_Lakers]

Didn't the Bulls win 55 games without MJ? Every team LeBron left, they missed the playoffs the next season.

Cavs were 4-23 without LeBron from 2014-15 to 2016-17, even though that team had Kyrie and Love.

Heat were 11-11 without LeBron from 2010-11 to 2013-14, even though they had Wade and Bosh

Chicago went 55-27 without MJ in 1994, 3 Bulls players made the All-star that season :oldlol:

:banghead:

4-23 without him and people act like LeBron played with the '92 Dream Team. :lol

We done with MJ!

[Walk on Water]

4-23 without him and people act like LeBron played with the '92 Dream Team. :lol

We done with MJ!



So what you’re saying is LeBron doesn’t actually make his teammates better.

[1987_Lakers]

So what you’re saying is LeBron doesn’t actually make his teammates better.

MJ played with better teams, to top it off, he also had easier competition.

[Walk on Water]

MJ played with better teams, to top it off, he also had easier competition.



Yes because MJ is better than Lebron so he made his teammates better. But Lebron had 7 All stars and Jordan had 1. And Lebron still wasn't successful with 7. Aren't you embafrassed about rooting for a loser and a failed athlete? Live in reality man.

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron made his teammates better

With and without MJ
'93 Pippen: 51 TS%
'93 Grant: 53 TS%

'94 Pippen: 54 TS%
'94 Grant: 54 TS%

With and without LeBron
'14 Wade: 59 TS%
'15 Wade: 53 TS%

'14 Bosh: 60 TS%
'15 Bosh: 55 TS%

`17 Irving: 58 TS%
'18 Irving: 61 TS%

'18 Love: 61 TS%
'19 Love: 56 TS%

[Walk on Water]

LeBron made his teammates better

With and without MJ
'93 Pippen: 51 TS%
'93 Grant: 53 TS%

'94 Pippen: 54 TS%
'94 Grant: 54 TS%

With and without LeBron
'14 Wade: 59 TS%
'15 Wade: 53 TS%

'14 Bosh: 60 TS%
'15 Bosh: 55 TS%

`17 Irving: 58 TS%
'18 Irving: 61 TS%

'18 Love: 61 TS%
'19 Love: 56 TS%



Lebron couldn't make the playoffs without Larry Hughes.

[Full Court]

From the looks of it, he held them back.

Pippen, Grant, & Armstrong had career years in 1994. :lol

Yet another of the many examples of how you are incapable of looking past raw stats and considering any kind of deeper context. You probably have the worst takes of anyone on here.

Just like how you think cumulative career points actually means anything. :roll:

[Full Court]

MJ played with better teams, to top it off, he also had easier competition.

Jordan waded through an absolute murderer's row in the 90s.

Meanwhile, we have Lebron in 2020 going against the weakest finals team in the history of the sport.

Jordan never had any teammates even close to the level of Wade, AD, or Luka. So nice try, but you still lose. :lol

:lebroncry:

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan waded through an absolute murderer's row in the 90s.

:roll:

[3ba11]

LeBron made his teammates better

With and without MJ
'93 Pippen: 51 TS%
'93 Grant: 53 TS%

'94 Pippen: 54 TS%
'94 Grant: 54 TS%

With and without LeBron
'14 Wade: 59 TS%
'15 Wade: 53 TS%

'14 Bosh: 60 TS%
'15 Bosh: 55 TS%

`17 Irving: 58 TS%
'18 Irving: 61 TS%

'18 Love: 61 TS%
'19 Love: 56 TS%


Love went from 26 ppg to 16 in his first season with Lebron, so who cares that his efficiency increased from being reduced to spot-up shooter - he's been reduced to a role player, so of course his efficiency increases

[1987_Lakers]

Love went from 26 ppg to 16 in his first season with Lebron, so who cares that his efficiency increased from being reduced to spot-up shooter - he's been reduced to a role player, so of course his efficiency increases

It was empty stats. Love never even made the playoffs before playing with LeBron.

[Walk on Water]

It was empty stats. Love never even made the playoffs before playing with LeBron.


Well just watch 2Raws video. He explains everything.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Yea, this is some cop out bullshit.

Fact is, Kyrie and Love never did much on a team where they were the #1 option compared to Pippen. Wade was a shell of himself by 2012, LeBron won 2 chips with a past prime Wade. Prime Pippen was better than all of those guys, he was 3rd in MVP voting in his prime, when did any of LeBron's teammates with the Cavs do that? You are overrating LeBron's supporting cast.

This is a boring road to go down of who had what and we can do that if you like but my main point was Lebron lacked the skills needed to be a dangerous off ball player, thus allowing his teammates to shine. He understood this, which is why the colluding, team hoping and constantly begging for more help.

Lebrons gift was his frame and athleticism, which was also his curse when it came down to half court basketball and instead of bulldozing to the hoop you need throw the ball into the high post while you run an off ball screen for your best player who's going to draw the double team and do a drop pass to the cutting center. All five players heavily involved none of this stand in the corner and wait for the ball.

If a player is actually incapable (which he was) of playing proper team basketball how can he be considered the GOAT? The amount of deficiencies in his game is enormous, both mentally and skillfully - never mind how he approached the sport and carried himself. A total embarrassment, classless even.

Fact is there are plenty of players who are right there with him for the #2 spot. Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Duncan and Kobe all have legitimate cases.

[1987_Lakers]

This is a boring road to go down of who had what and we can do that if you like but my main point was Lebron lacked the skills needed to be a dangerous off ball player, thus allowing his teammates to shine. He understood this, which is why the colluding, team hoping and constantly begging for more help.

Lebrons gift was his frame and athleticism, which was also his curse when it came down to half court basketball and instead of bulldozing to the hoop you need throw the ball into the high post while you run an off ball screen for your best player who's going to draw the double team and do a drop pass to the cutting center. All five players heavily involved none of this stand in the corner and wait for the ball.

The funny thing is, LeBron played lots of off-ball in his Miami years. Not allowing teammates to shine? More propaganda BS, AD had his best years playing with LeBron, Kyrie had one of his best seasons with LeBron in 2017. Guys like Bosh & Love took a back seat because they already had 2 stars in the lineup, and those players would have had similar production as they did with LeBron if they played with Shaq & Kobe for example.

We saw LeBron lead USA to Gold while being named MVP playing with guys like Curry, Durant, Embiid etc. In fact he produced at a high level in all 3 of his Olympics when he won Gold, despite playing with multiple superstars.

Someone like Kobe looked way worse when you paired him with multiple stars, look no further than 2004 or when he was on the Olympic team in 2008 & 2012 when he was one of Team USA's least impressive players, LeBron outplayed Kobe in both the '08 & '12 Olympics. Hell, MJ looked like dog shit at times in the '92 Olympics.

I don't know how exactly you would expect his teammates from 2006-2010 for example and just expect some of them to shine consistently, he had a dog shit cast.

[Walk on Water]

The funny thing is, LeBron played lots of off-ball in his Miami years. Not allowing teammates to shine? More propaganda BS, AD had his best years playing with LeBron, Kyrie had one of his best seasons with LeBron in 2017. Guys like Bosh & Love took a back seat because they already had 2 stars in the lineup, and those players would have had similar production as they did with LeBron if they played with Shaq & Kobe for example.

We saw LeBron lead USA to Gold while being named MVP playing with guys like Curry, Durant, Embiid etc. In fact he produced at a high level in all 3 of his Olympics when he won Gold, despite playing with multiple superstars.

Someone like Kobe looked way worse when you paired him with multiple stars, look no further than 2004 or when he was on the Olympic team in 2008 & 2012 when he was one of Team USA's least impressive players, LeBron outplayed Kobe in both the '08 & '12 Olympics. Hell, MJ looked like dog shit at times in the '92 Olympics.

I don't know how exactly you would expect his teammates from 2006-2010 for example and just expect some of them to shine consistently, he had a dog shit cast.


Do you honestly believe 4 and 6 is the best Lebron could do? He played 22 years. I feel sorry for you bro. How could you look up to someone that has achieved so little with so much help and played so long? How????? It blows my mind.

[1987_Lakers]

Do you honestly believe 4 and 6 is the best Lebron could do? He played 22 years. I feel sorry for you bro. How could you look up to someone that has achieved so little with so much help and played so long? How????? It blows my mind.

How could you look up to someone who went 1-9?

[Walk on Water]

How could you look up to someone who went 1-9?


No but seriously. 4 in 22 years? Really man?

[1987_Lakers]

No but seriously. 4 in 22 years? Really man?

No but seriously. 1-9? Really man?

[Walk on Water]

No but seriously. 1-9? Really man?


No but seriously. I mean seriously. Only 4 in 22 years? We're talking championships man.

[1987_Lakers]

No but seriously. I mean seriously. Only 4 in 22 years? We're talking championships man.

No but seriously. I mean seriously. Only 1-9? No Pip, no chip.

[Walk on Water]

No but seriously. I mean seriously. Only 1-9? No Pip, no chip.


No but seriously. I mean seriously. No Hughes, no playoff pursuit.

[1987_Lakers]

No but seriously. I mean seriously. No Hughes, no playoff pursuit.

:oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron James. The only time in the entire history of sports we put the word "only" next to 4 titles. Strange isn't it?

[StrongLurk]

This thread really broke the Lebron haters brains :lol

The facts really hurt their feelings.

[Walk on Water]

This thread really broke the Lebron haters brains :lol

The facts really hurt their feelings.

Strong Lurk there is a difference between facts and creating a criteria with your own set of rules that favor you. But here is the thing Strong Lurk. If you're going to be fair then if these are the rules you use, "Finals MVPS'' then this does disqualify Lebron from being the GOAT. Because 6 is more than 4. And you can't use these rules to put Lebron at #2 and then in the same breath change your rule after that and say because Jordan is higher than Russell, now Lebron can be higher than Jordan. If you play by your rules, then you have to be consistent.

So once again, this criteria that you have put forth also disqualifies Lebron from GOAT. If you're gonna be fair, you have to acknowlege that too. You can't have it both ways and change rules in the middle of the game.

[dankok8]

Strong Lurk there is a difference between facts and creating a criteria with your own set of rules that favor you. But here is the thing Strong Lurk. If you're going to be fair then if these are the rules you use, "Finals MVPS'' then this does disqualify Lebron from being the GOAT. Because 6 is more than 4. And you can't use these rules to put Lebron at #2 and then in the same breath change your rule after that and say because Jordan is higher than Russell, now Lebron can be higher than Jordan. If you play by your rules, then you have to be consistent.

So once again, this criteria that you have put forth also disqualifies Lebron from GOAT. If you're gonna be fair, you have to acknowlege that too. You can't have it both ways and change rules in the middle of the game.

To be fair, he said Lebron is #2 after Jordan in the 3pt era.

[sdot_thadon]

Strong Lurk there is a difference between facts and creating a criteria with your own set of rules that favor you. But here is the thing Strong Lurk. If you're going to be fair then if these are the rules you use, "Finals MVPS'' then this does disqualify Lebron from being the GOAT. Because 6 is more than 4. And you can't use these rules to put Lebron at #2 and then in the same breath change your rule after that and say because Jordan is higher than Russell, now Lebron can be higher than Jordan. If you play by your rules, then you have to be consistent.

So once again, this criteria that you have put forth also disqualifies Lebron from GOAT. If you're gonna be fair, you have to acknowlege that too. You can't have it both ways and change rules in the middle of the game.

What a convoluted post. Bro if you feel Lebron having less than Mj disqualifies him from being the goat, it also disqualifies Mj for the same reasons of being even further below Russell in these marks. Mj doesn't deserve his own set of criteria independent of everyone else being discussed, thats just stupid.

[dankok8]

4-23 without him and people act like LeBron played with the '92 Dream Team. :lol

We done with MJ!

I see 4-23 being used a lot. A lot of those 27 games are without Kyrie and/or Love or with them playing limited minutes due to injury/rest.

The Cavs without Lebron actually went 3-6 with a -4.6 SRS in games Kyrie and Love played >30 minutes. Of course a 9-game sample doesn't really tell us anything but it's lot better than using 4-23 without context.

In Miami, the overall record is 9-9 without Lebron but again a lot of those games are without Wade and/or Bosh.

The Heat without Lebron were actually 3-3 with a +1.87 SRS in meaningful games. And Wade actually missed one of those six as well. Another tiny 6-game sample.

[Walk on Water]

What a convoluted post. Bro if you feel Lebron having less than Mj disqualifies him from being the goat, it also disqualifies Mj for the same reasons of being even further below Russell in these marks. Mj doesn't deserve his own set of criteria independent of everyone else being discussed, thats just stupid.



No! These are the rules that OP created. And Russell doesn’t have any FMVP so we’re only going by the rules that OP has created.

[sdot_thadon]

No! These are the rules that OP created. And Russell doesn’t have any FMVP so we’re only going by the rules that OP has created.

We're not stupid, at least im not and dont need someone to tell me Russell would have around 8 fmvp at minimum. The award is named after him for a reason. And 11 titles is close to double the 6 Mj won. All OP said is at worst Lebron is 2nd to Mj in the 3point era. Which is true in count. All these artificial criteria are dying live before our eyes.

[3ba11]

We're not stupid, at least im not and dont need someone to tell me Russell would have around 8 fmvp at minimum. The award is named after him for a reason. And 11 titles is close to double the 6 Mj won. All OP said is at worst Lebron is 2nd to Mj in the 3point era. Which is true in count. All these artificial criteria are dying live before our eyes.


45 of 45 MVP's in 3-pointer history were dominant offensive players, so Russell wouldn't be MVP in the modern era.. That's why no one respects his ring count

[ImKobe]

2nd best winner ever has the same Finals record as Jerry West?

[Walk on Water]

We're not stupid, at least im not and dont need someone to tell me Russell would have around 8 fmvp at minimum. The award is named after him for a reason. And 11 titles is close to double the 6 Mj won. All OP said is at worst Lebron is 2nd to Mj in the 3point era. Which is true in count. All these artificial criteria are dying live before our eyes.


lol now you’re twisting his words. But if you’re gonna say Russell would have more than Jordan it also means he would have more than LeBron. So it doesn’t help your argument even then.

[sdot_thadon]

lol now you’re twisting his words. But if you’re gonna say Russell would have more than Jordan it also means he would have more than LeBron. So it doesn’t help your argument even then.

Whats funny is its not my argument, its yours. Im just wondering why your criteria goes on lunch break when Russell enters the chat.

[StrongLurk]

We're not stupid, at least im not and dont need someone to tell me Russell would have around 8 fmvp at minimum. The award is named after him for a reason. And 11 titles is close to double the 6 Mj won. All OP said is at worst Lebron is 2nd to Mj in the 3point era. Which is true in count. All these artificial criteria are dying live before our eyes.

The poster you are responding to is actually retarded. He actually can't understand the simple facts you are saying.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

[SouBeachTalents]

2nd best winner ever has the same Finals record as Jerry West?
4-6 is the same as 1-8?

That's like saying LeBron & Kobe have the same number of FMVP's when one player has double the other.

[sdot_thadon]

The poster you are responding to is actually retarded. He actually can't understand the simple facts you are saying.

Emotion based arguments never do anyone any favors. I dont think these guys actually get that these weak confused arguments actually help Lebron more than hurt him. Im just wondering how effing great he must be that these guys make so many threads with the aim of trying to convince us hes not the thing we all see him being.

[Walk on Water]

LeBron has a net zero Finals MVPs. The player that played his position won against him 4 times. Leonard, Iggy and KD twice. So LeBron is a net zero.

[FilmyCogTurner]

The funny thing is, LeBron played lots of off-ball in his Miami years. Not allowing teammates to shine? More propaganda BS, AD had his best years playing with LeBron, Kyrie had one of his best seasons with LeBron in 2017. Guys like Bosh & Love took a back seat because they already had 2 stars in the lineup, and those players would have had similar production as they did with LeBron if they played with Shaq & Kobe for example.

We saw LeBron lead USA to Gold while being named MVP playing with guys like Curry, Durant, Embiid etc. In fact he produced at a high level in all 3 of his Olympics when he won Gold, despite playing with multiple superstars.

Someone like Kobe looked way worse when you paired him with multiple stars, look no further than 2004 or when he was on the Olympic team in 2008 & 2012 when he was one of Team USA's least impressive players, LeBron outplayed Kobe in both the '08 & '12 Olympics. Hell, MJ looked like dog shit at times in the '92 Olympics.

I don't know how exactly you would expect his teammates from 2006-2010 for example and just expect some of them to shine consistently, he had a dog shit cast.

The funny thing is you thinking occasionally playing off ball is the same as playing within a team focused system.

I respect Lebrons willingness to pass but also a lot of the time he differs not for the right reason. A lot of the time it was to pass the buck and have someone else do the heavy lifting because he was at least smart enough in the moment to know he couldn't or at least knew there was a more favorable option.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

Post-Jordan GOAT.

[sdot_thadon]

The funny thing is you thinking occasionally playing off ball is the same as playing within a team focused system.

I respect Lebrons willingness to pass but also a lot of the time he differs not for the right reason. A lot of the time it was to pass the buck and have someone else do the heavy lifting because he was at least smart enough in the moment to know he couldn't or at least knew there was a more favorable option.

Yet you'll recognize the few moments he allowed someone else to shine for whatever the reason may be over the tons of times he took over and absolutely annihilated the other team in big moments? I think Miami was the most system based run of his career and maybe a bit in LA. And hes played off the ball as much as anyone should want him to do on the teams he played for. Hes figured it out at some point in every stop well enough to reach the finals if not win it all.

[gengiskhan]

2020 FMVP is weak as hell.
because of BUBBLE Ring
Also, AD is the REAL 2020 FMVP winner.

2016 FMVP belongs to KYRIE as well.

Real FMVPs of LBJ are 2012 and 2013 only.

also, 2010 FMVP belongs to Gasol.