When's the last time a DPOY is destroyed this bad?

[iamgine]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2015/4DuTmU.gif

[90sgoat]

MJ destroyed Gary Payton.

[Kblaze8855]

The most recent one I recall having his matchup specifically sought out over and over to the detriment of his team is Rudy himself in previous years when they would just find a way to make him guard a shooter knowing he couldn’t stand to do it and would roam and leave him open.

[Overdrive]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2015/4DuTmU.gif

Mutombo 2001.

[basketballcat]

MJ destroyed Gary Payton.

Payton was 2 inches shorter than Jordan. He had a plumbing license as well.

Payton didn't guard Jordan until game 4. The series went 2-1, in favour of the Sonics, with the 6'4" plumber clamping down Jordan.
Jordan's stats:
Game 4: 23 pts, 31.6 FG%
Game 5: 26 pts, 50 FG%
game 6: 22 pts, 26.3%

He got locked up.

[basketballcat]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2015/4DuTmU.gif

Mutombo was the DPOY in 1995.

[basketballcat]

Mutombo 2001.

True, but that wasn't peak Mutombo. It was already his 10th year. He averaged only 2.7bpg that year. That's worse that any of his previous seasons. His peak was at 4.5 bpg 5 years earlier.

Garnett & Duncan had were statistically better, but Mutombo won the DPOY based on team narrative. Even David Robinson, Ben Wallace, and Theo Ratliff had better stats. In fact, Ratliff would have probably won it, if he wasn't traded for Mutombo. Philly had to get Mutombo because they knew Ratliff was undersized for Shaq or Duncan.

[ShawkFactory]

Payton was 2 inches shorter than Jordan. He had a plumbing license as well.

Payton didn't guard Jordan until game 4. The series went 2-1, in favour of the Sonics, with the 6'4" plumber clamping down Jordan.
Jordan's stats:
Game 4: 23 pts, 31.6 FG%
Game 5: 26 pts, 50 FG%
game 6: 22 pts, 26.3%

He got locked up.

Yea I was gonna say. Payton did a very good job on Jordan in that series.

The Sonics gave Payton the Deion Sanders treatment in the first half of the series in that they put him on someone else and let him completely lock them up 1-on-1 so they could have guys help on Jordan.

[plowking]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2015/4DuTmU.gif

Robinson often got the better of Hakeem prior to this series.

That series shifted the whole narrative of who the best center out of the two was. It was a lot closer than people make it out to be.

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ destroyed Gary Payton.
I don’t even think 3ball would say some shit like this :lol

[iamgine]

Robinson often got the better of Hakeem prior to this series.

That series shifted the whole narrative of who the best center out of the two was. It was a lot closer than people make it out to be.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?149487-David-Robinson-was-better-than-Hakeem-Olajuwon

[Kblaze8855]

True, but that wasn't peak Mutombo. It was already his 10th year. He averaged only 2.7bpg that year. That's worse that any of his previous seasons. His peak was at 4.5 bpg 5 years earlier.

Garnett & Duncan had were statistically better, but Mutombo won the DPOY based on team narrative. Even David Robinson, Ben Wallace, and Theo Ratliff had better stats. In fact, Ratliff would have probably won it, if he wasn't traded for Mutombo. Philly had to get Mutombo because they knew Ratliff was undersized for Shaq or Duncan.


it’s a pretty similar situation. A routinely mocked for lack of all around skill four-time, defensive player of the year Guarding somebody who really can’t be stopped, who was also taking the matchup personally. Guys like them don’t win awards because they can stop great scorers one on one. They win because they defend the other team in general.

But make them guard the unguardable they might as well be anybody. Makes more sense to me to let a worse defender guard the star. If you’re gonna get annihilated, leave the guy free who can help on everybody else.

[Xiao Yao You]

True, but that wasn't peak Mutombo. It was already his 10th year. He averaged only 2.7bpg that year. That's worse that any of his previous seasons. His peak was at 4.5 bpg 5 years earlier.

Garnett & Duncan had were statistically better, but Mutombo won the DPOY based on team narrative. Even David Robinson, Ben Wallace, and Theo Ratliff had better stats. In fact, Ratliff would have probably won it, if he wasn't traded for Mutombo. Philly had to get Mutombo because they knew Ratliff was undersized for Shaq or Duncan.

More blocks dont mean better d

[HoopsNY]

Robinson often got the better of Hakeem prior to this series.

That series shifted the whole narrative of who the best center out of the two was. It was a lot closer than people make it out to be.

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that Robinson usually got the better of Hakeem prior to this series?

Robinson RS '93-'95: 26.9 PPG on 51.3% FG%, 3.0 TOs
Robinson vs. Hakeem '93-'95: 23.1 PPG on 44.5% FG%, 3.6 TOs

Robinson RS '90-'95: 25.7 PPG on 52.7% FG%, 3.0 TOs
Robinson vs. Hakeem '90-'95: 22.1 PPG on 46.6% FG%, 3.5 TOs

The first one is Hakeem's peak.

[tpols]

MJ destroyed Gary Payton.

No he didn't lol. He shot like 40% from the field and 30% from 3. That's trash. GP actually outshot him.

[j3lademaster]

Payton was 2 inches shorter than Jordan. He had a plumbing license as well.

Payton didn't guard Jordan until game 4. The series went 2-1, in favour of the Sonics, with the 6'4" plumber clamping down Jordan.
Jordan's stats:
Game 4: 23 pts, 31.6 FG%
Game 5: 26 pts, 50 FG%
game 6: 22 pts, 26.3%

He got locked up.sometimes the shorter pesky guys are tougher to play against. Having to constantly watch your dribble against them makes it tough to keep your head up and see the floor, not that 6’4 vs 6’6 is any kind of significant height difference to be noteworthy.

[tpols]

Payton was 2 inches shorter than Jordan. He had a plumbing license as well.

Payton didn't guard Jordan until game 4. The series went 2-1, in favour of the Sonics, with the 6'4" plumber clamping down Jordan.
Jordan's stats:
Game 4: 23 pts, 31.6 FG%
Game 5: 26 pts, 50 FG%
game 6: 22 pts, 26.3%

He got locked up.

That's crazy.

Jordan won a closeout title game doing 22 on 26% shooting. People shit on Kobe for his Game 7 vs Boston but he actually outscored him. Never heard a peep of criticism for MJ.

[90sgoat]

No he didn't lol. He shot like 40% from the field and 30% from 3. That's trash. GP actually outshot him.

Well, 40% was pretty good considering Pippen shot 34%, Harper 38%, Kerr 31%, Kukoc 42%.

The Sonics were just insane on defense, but MJ managed.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well, 40% was pretty good considering Pippen shot 34%, Harper 38%, Kerr 31%, Kukoc 42%.

The Sonics were just insane on defense, but MJ managed.
Jordan played significantly worse when Payton was on him, you made a dumb point everybody disagreed with.

[theman93]

Payton was 2 inches shorter than Jordan. He had a plumbing license as well.

Payton didn't guard Jordan until game 4. The series went 2-1, in favour of the Sonics, with the 6'4" plumber clamping down Jordan.
Jordan's stats:
Game 4: 23 pts, 31.6 FG%
Game 5: 26 pts, 50 FG%
game 6: 22 pts, 26.3%

He got locked up.

This is nonsense tbh. If Payton made such a difference MJ wouldn’t have shot 50% in game 5. Chicago took their collective foot off the gas in game 4 which is human nature being up 3-0. Game 6 he was merely off (evidenced by game 5) yet still dominated from the line and led the team in assists.

Jordan also shot 40% in game 2. Was Payton guarding him that game too? No, he was just off which happens.

[tpols]

This is nonsense tbh. If Payton made such a difference MJ wouldn’t have shot 50% in game 5. Chicago took their collective foot off the gas in game 4 which is human nature being up 3-0. Game 6 he was merely off (evidenced by game 5) yet still dominated from the line and led the team in assists.

Jordan also shot 40% in game 2. Was Payton guarding him that game too? No, he was just off which happens.

Rodman won them Game 6.

19 boards and an absurd 11 offensive rebounds. That's just demoralizing.

[theman93]

Rodman won them Game 6.

19 boards and an absurd 11 offensive rebounds. That's just demoralizing.

Nobody “won” Chicago game 6. They just decided to lock in collectively on defense and held Seattle to 75 when they were averaging 92 the 5 games prior. It was a defensive masterclass as a whole.

[tpols]

Nobody “won” Chicago game 6. They just decided to lock in collectively on defense and held Seattle to 75 when they were averaging 92 the 5 games prior. It was a defensive masterclass as a whole.

And Rodman had more to do with the defense than Jordan. Plus grabbing 11 offensive rebounds is going to kill the other teams time of possesion.

[Mask the Embiid]

Curry literally just did this to Marcus smart 2 years ago…honestly he looked more unstoppable because he had less help. But I’m starting to see this has nothing to do with basketball. lol carry on. I get it now. Keep hyping him up

[dankok8]

MJ went up 3-0 on the Sonics averaging 31 ppg on 58.7 %TS. Then he started struggling as the Bulls took their foot off the gas pedal. Good case of where the box score averages don't tell the story of the series. Payton also wasn't the reason MJ shot poorly in the later games. He just missed a lot of open shots especially in Game 6.

[Norcaliblunt]

This is a great example why offense is more important than defense.

[elementally morale]

Curry literally just did this to Marcus smart 2 years ago…honestly he looked more unstoppable because he had less help. But I’m starting to see this has nothing to do with basketball. lol carry on. I get it now. Keep hyping him up

:(

[SaltyMeatballs]

To be fair it's Jokic we're talking about. Not a single person in NBA history can guard that man

[Xiao Yao You]

To be fair it's Jokic we're talking about. Not a single person in NBA history can guard that man

With todays rules anyway

[L.Kizzle]

Didn't Marcus Smart win the season Curry finally won Finals MVP?

Crazy thing is, most great defenders don't lock down offensively talented players.

Pistons had Rodman and Dumars and they still had to create a scheme to slow him down.

[FultzNationRISE]

Didn't Marcus Smart win the season Curry finally won Finals MVP?

Crazy thing is, most great defenders don't lock down offensively talented players.

Pistons had Rodman and Dumars and they still had to create a scheme to slow him down.


Lebron did. But youre right, most dont.

[theman93]

And Rodman had more to do with the defense than Jordan. Plus grabbing 11 offensive rebounds is going to kill the other teams time of possesion.

And Jordan had more to do with the offense than Rodman. :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

And Jordan had more to do with the offense than Rodman. :confusedshrug:

Shooting 26%???

:lol

If Rodman didn't rebound his bricks the offense would been toast.

[theman93]

Shooting 26%???

:lol

Yes. Sometimes your shot doesn't fall and you have to find other ways to help your team. In addition to his defense, he led Chicago in assists, kept the defense in foul trouble (12 FTA next closest was 3), and still led the team in scoring despite his inefficient night. Not to mention the offensive juggernaut he is in the first place opens up easier looks for teammates regardless if his shot is on or not.

[ImKobe]

DPOY doesn't mean you're the best possible match-up against everyone. Rudy is a leader of the best defense in the league and you can argue based on some of the stats that he does the best job individually vs. most players in the league, but Jokic is a generational talent man, and Rudy made him work hard as **** in G5 and it still didn't matter. When a great player is on a heater there's no stopping it.

He'd fake Rudy like 3-4x in a row without Rudy biting then still make an insane hook shot off the glass like what's Rudy supposed to do there defensively? He did his job staying with Joker but great offense beats great defense. I don't think he got a single uncontested shot against Toody in that game. Hand in his face every time and it just goes in.

[basketballcat]

This is nonsense tbh. If Payton made such a difference MJ wouldn’t have shot 50% in game 5. Chicago took their collective foot off the gas in game 4 which is human nature being up 3-0. Game 6 he was merely off (evidenced by game 5) yet still dominated from the line and led the team in assists.

Jordan also shot 40% in game 2. Was Payton guarding him that game too? No, he was just off which happens.

How about some honesty, mate? You deliberately nitpicked game 2, and it shows.

Games 1 to 3 (Payton not primary defender):
31 ppg, 46 FG%
Won all 3 games

Games 4 to 6 (Payton primary defender):
23.67 ppg, 37 FG%
Won 1 game out of 3

Points dropped by 24%. Almost 1/4 of Jordan's point production evaporated.
FG% decreased by a whopping 9.4%. That swing is the difference between a starter and being cut from the NBA.
Went from a perfect first half (3 of 3) to losing in the second half (1 of 3).

It's incontrovertible: Payton locked up Jordan. All the while fixing sinks and installing piping.

[theman93]

How about some honesty, mate? You deliberately nitpicked game 2, and it shows.

Games 1 to 3 (Payton not primary defender):
31 ppg, 46 FG%
Won all 3 games

Games 4 to 6 (Payton primary defender):
23.67 ppg, 37 FG%
Won 1 game out of 3

Points dropped by 24%. Almost 1/4 of Jordan's point production evaporated.
FG% decreased by a whopping 9.4%. That swing is the difference between a starter and being cut from the NBA.
Went from a perfect first half (3 of 3) to losing in the second half (1 of 3).

It's incontrovertible: Payton locked up Jordan. All the while fixing sinks and installing piping.

The sample size is too small to nitpick. It just boils down to mere logic. If Payton truly “locked up” MJ he wouldn’t have shot 50% in game 5. It simply came down to him making or missing shots.

[SATAN]

Jordan won a closeout title game doing 22 on 26% shooting.


:roll:

[SATAN]

lmao@theman93 jumping through hoops to defend some guy shooting horribly.

[SouBeachTalents]

lmao@theman93 jumping through hoops to defend some guy shooting horribly.
For real, they can't even admit their deity had a bad game :lol

[basketballcat]

The sample size is too small to nitpick. It just boils down to mere logic. If Payton truly “locked up” MJ he wouldn’t have shot 50% in game 5. It simply came down to him making or missing shots.

If 6 games is too small a sample size, then 1 game (i.e. game 5) is even smaller. 6 times smaller, in fact.

Fact is, MJ got locked up by a guy 2 inches shorter. Had a plumbing license too.

Note that this was right smack in the middle of MJ's peak: after 3 rings and right before the start of the last 3 rings.

Locked up.

[theman93]

If 6 games is too small a sample size, then 1 game (i.e. game 5) is even smaller. 6 times smaller, in fact.

Fact is, MJ got locked up by a guy 2 inches shorter. Had a plumbing license too.

Note that this was right smack in the middle of MJ's peak: after 3 rings and right before the start of the last 3 rings.

Locked up.

Mhm. So how was MJ able to shoot 50% in game 5?

[clutchinho]

Since the last time Gobert won DPOY?

He's a perfectly good defensive anchor, but he simply can't stop elite offensive players and schemes from going through him like he isn't even there. Nobody is scared of Gobert

[basketballcat]

Mhm. So how was MJ able to shoot 50% in game 5?

You still cling to 50%? Is that stellar for you? That's average.

So, by your logic, since MJ had one average game he wasn't affected by Payton. He had 2 egregious games in 3 games. 1 average game doesn't reverse that. Even a good shooting game, ~60%+, isn't going to reverse two catastrophic games. Especially 26% on a close out game.

MJ got locked up by a guy 2 inches shorter and had a plumbing license. He fixed my sink during that series.

[basketballcat]

Since the last time Gobert won DPOY?

He's a perfectly good defensive anchor, but he simply can't stop elite offensive players and schemes from going through him like he isn't even there. Nobody is scared of Gobert

Are we going to retrofit a narrative that Gobert and the Wolves are bad at defense? Lol.

The Wolves allowed the least number of points. The lowest opponent FG% as well.

Check how they were before Gobert arrived. He is 4x DPOY for a reason.

If you watch this series, his defense is actually good. Jokic is just better.

Not a fluke, obviously. Jokic eviscerated AD as well. Multiple times. Are we going to deny reality and pretend that AD is bad at defense? That he isn't long or quick enough?

Jokic is simply a beast.

[ImKobe]

You still cling to 50%? Is that stellar for you? That's average.

So, by your logic, since MJ had one average game he wasn't affected by Payton. He had 2 egregious games in 3 games. 1 average game doesn't reverse that. Even a good shooting game, ~60%+, isn't going to reverse two catastrophic games. Especially 26% on a close out game.

MJ got locked up by a guy 2 inches shorter and had a plumbing license. He fixed my sink during that series.

He had 22/9/7/2 on 45%TS in a blowout win. That's a prime Pippen stat line and you guys have hyped Pippen up for decades for posting that stat line, even going as far as to say that he was a superstar top 5 player of the 90s. Jordan putting up a Pippen stat line on a bad back though means that he got completely shut down lmao.

Jordan haters still cling onto that series and act like the GP calf injury is why the Bulls won, ignoring all the injuries that the Bulls dealt with in those Playoffs. Pippen, MJ, Kukoc & Harper were all playing hurt.

[theman93]

You still cling to 50%? Is that stellar for you? That's average.

So, by your logic, since MJ had one average game he wasn't affected by Payton. He had 2 egregious games in 3 games. 1 average game doesn't reverse that. Even a good shooting game, ~60%+, isn't going to reverse two catastrophic games. Especially 26% on a close out game.

MJ got locked up by a guy 2 inches shorter and had a plumbing license. He fixed my sink during that series.

Not average at all. 50% is 4% higher than what he shot in the playoffs that year. If MJ was truly bothered by Payton, how did he shoot so efficiently that game?

[ShawkFactory]

The sample size is too small to nitpick. It just boils down to mere logic. If Payton truly “locked up” MJ he wouldn’t have shot 50% in game 5. It simply came down to him making or missing shots.

So are you trying to say that a great defender can have no bearing on the level of shots that a great scorer gets? As has already been mentioned, a great player can sometimes hit tough shots anyway but he has to be on to do it. He's not going to get any easy baskets or even good looks to help over the course of a game and if the shot is even slightly off its going to be an off night scoring.

"Locked up" isn't the right phrase here but Payton certainly played him well and MJ didn't dominate him at all.

[j3lademaster]

Every player is going to have a few black marks on their resume. MJ’s was the second half of the 96 finals, his heat series vs Timmy and Zo, and an inefficient Knicks series. That’s a VERY small amount of playoff failures, none of which at the magnitude of a 2011 Lebron, for someone who won 6 titles and thus is still the consensus goat. Don’t have to go defending every single one of his failures, at some point you’re basically defending his dick size against the Madonna/Pippen drama.

[SaltyMeatballs]

With todays rules anyway

Jokic would dominate any era bud

[theman93]

So are you trying to say that a great defender can have no bearing on the level of shots that a great scorer gets? As has already been mentioned, a great player can sometimes hit tough shots anyway but he has to be on to do it. He's not going to get any easy baskets or even good looks to help over the course of a game and if the shot is even slightly off its going to be an off night scoring.

"Locked up" isn't the right phrase here but Payton certainly played him well and MJ didn't dominate him at all.

I’ve not stated or implied that at all. However you basically made the point I’ve repeatedly made - “ a great player can sometimes hit tough shots anyway but he has to be on to do it.” Jordan simply was on in game 5, and not in games 4 and 5. Just like he was on in games 1 and 3, and not in game 2.

[ShawkFactory]

I’ve not stated or implied that at all. However you basically made the point I’ve repeatedly made - “ a great player can sometimes hit tough shots anyway but he has to be on to do it.” Jordan simply was on in game 5, and not in games 4 and 5. Just like he was on in games 1 and 3, and not in game 2.

You kind of did by saying that it's a small sample as to why Jordan had off games ignoring that defense maybe contributed to it.

And MY point was that a great player, particularly one of Jordan's caliber, can score 30+ on 50% on an average night against a defense that is average. Maybe even more against a below average one.

What happened in that series is a tell-tale sign of a great defender. If it's almost anyone else he's scoring 30 anyway and not really having off nights like that.

[basketballcat]

Not average at all. 50% is 4% higher than what he shot in the playoffs that year. If MJ was truly bothered by Payton, how did he shoot so efficiently that game?

You realise that Jordan's pedestrian 50% in game 5 could have easily been an even worse 45% had he missed 1 more shot. It went in, so he got an unremarkable 50%.

How about the two abysmal games? If Payton didn't bother him, why didn't he shoot 60% on all games?

Oh wait, if he flukes one shot to make it to 50%, it's skill. If he throws brick after brick after being LOCKED UP by a shorter plumber, it's something else.

He got locked up. By a shorter plumber, no less.

[theman93]

You kind of did by saying that it's a small sample as to why Jordan had off games ignoring that defense maybe contributed to it.

And MY point was that a great player, particularly one of Jordan's caliber, can score 30+ on 50% on an average night against a defense that is average. Maybe even more against a below average one.

What happened in that series is a tell-tale sign of a great defender. If it's almost anyone else he's scoring 30 anyway and not really having off nights like that.

Then explain game 2. Payton was not his primary defender and he shot a meager 40%.

[ShawkFactory]

Then explain game 2. Payton was not his primary defender and he shot a meager 40%.

I mean..he had 29/8 and shot 16 FTs.

[BarberSchool]

So many perfect examples of DPOY’s getting murked.
Appreciate y’all !
This is PREMIUM AMMUNITION ! :cheers:

[basketballcat]

Then explain game 2. Payton was not his primary defender and he shot a meager 40%.

Even non DPOY plumbers lock him up.

LOCKED UP.

[Xiao Yao You]

Since the last time Gobert won DPOY?

He's a perfectly good defensive anchor, but he simply can't stop elite offensive players and schemes from going through him like he isn't even there. Nobody is scared of Gobert

Than why do they dribble inro the paint and out again or pass it out when hes in there? :facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

Since the last time Gobert won DPOY?

He's a perfectly good defensive anchor, but he simply can't stop elite offensive players and schemes from going through him like he isn't even there. Nobody is scared of Gobert


Jokic would dominate any era bud

Hed be great in any era. Dominate os pure speculation. You used to be able to touch the opponent as a defender especially when the offensive player is putting his body into you

[ImKobe]

So many perfect examples of DPOY’s getting murked.
Appreciate y’all !
This is PREMIUM AMMUNITION ! :cheers:

Curry murked Marcus Smart. Happy?

[SATAN]

Than why do they dribble inro the paint and out again or pass it out when hes in there? :facepalm

You mean like this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YygTmWspyE

[theman93]

I mean..he had 29/8 and shot 16 FTs.

We're not talking about assists. We're talking how his scoring efficiency. It seems to me you want to attribute his poor shooting performances in games 4 and 6 to Payton, but game 2 he was just off? That doesn't check out.

[j3lademaster]

You mean like this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YygTmWspyEweakass T. You need to let a player celebrate after that, might be the greatest ‘little man’ dunk of all time.

[ShawkFactory]

We're not talking about assists. We're talking how his scoring efficiency. It seems to me you want to attribute his poor shooting performances in games 4 and 6 to Payton, but game 2 he was just off? That doesn't check out.

Why doesn’t it check out?

Sure yea he was a little off. And against a better defender that little off turns into very off, as we saw. Because as I’ve mentioned (and find that I have to mention again), playing a great defender takes the easier looks away.

Again, I’m confused as to what you’re arguing. Are you saying that playing against a great defender can’t have an effect. The degree of difficulty of shot rises. Typically means percentage will be lower..

[Reggie43]

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that Robinson usually got the better of Hakeem prior to this series?

Robinson RS '93-'95: 26.9 PPG on 51.3% FG%, 3.0 TOs
Robinson vs. Hakeem '93-'95: 23.1 PPG on 44.5% FG%, 3.6 TOs

Robinson RS '90-'95: 25.7 PPG on 52.7% FG%, 3.0 TOs
Robinson vs. Hakeem '90-'95: 22.1 PPG on 46.6% FG%, 3.5 TOs

The first one is Hakeem's peak.

Beating him head to head in their matchups? Not sure prior to the series but Robinson was 32-16 alltime against Olajuwon in the regular season.

[theman93]

Why doesn’t it check out?

Sure yea he was a little off. And against a better defender that little off turns into very off, as we saw. Because as I’ve mentioned (and find that I have to mention again), playing a great defender takes the easier looks away.

Again, I’m confused as to what you’re arguing. Are you saying that playing against a great defender can’t have an effect. The degree of difficulty of shot rises. Typically means percentage will be lower..

For the second time, no. My point has been very clear. MJ's bad shooting % in games 4 and 6 had more to do with his shot being off than Payton "locking" him up. Game 5 makes that abundantly clear in my mind.

[ShawkFactory]

For the second time, no. My point has been very clear. MJ's bad shooting % in games 4 and 6 had more to do with his shot being off than Payton "locking" him up. Game 5 makes that abundantly clear in my mind.

I feel like we’re arguing different things and/or just not understanding one another.

Either way, the original point that someone made that I disagreed with was that MJ “destroyed” Payton. Whether the reason for him shooting poorly was because of Payton locking him up, or his shot just being off, or an in between where Payton made shots a little more difficult…that statement is simply not true.

[Reggie43]

Shaq vs Mutombo get similarly judged off one series where Shaq was at his absolute peak vs a 35 year old Mutombo.

How many of you guys know that Shaq has never scored more than 30 points against Deke in their careers outside that finals matchup?

Shaq had just 21.5ppg in 24 career games against Mutombo although Shaq won most of those games.

[theman93]

I feel like we’re arguing different things and/or just not understanding one another.

Either way, the original point that someone made that I disagreed with was that MJ “destroyed” Payton. Whether the reason for him shooting poorly was because of Payton locking him up, or his shot just being off, or an in between where Payton made shots a little more difficult…that statement is simply not true.

MJ neither “destroyed” Payton nor did Payton “lock up” MJ which is the debate I was having lol

[90sgoat]

Shaq had just 21.5ppg in 24 career games against Mutombo although Shaq won most of those games.

Shaq has a lot of such stats.

Ostertag also held Shaq to quite decent numbers, around 25ppg, while being the one who swatted him the most. I believe Shaq has even said that Ostertag was his most difficult cover.

https://saltcityhoops.com/clash-of-the-titans-shaq-vs-greg-ostertag/

[Xiao Yao You]

And the great Sloan preferred Collins :lol

[ShawkFactory]

MJ neither “destroyed” Payton nor did Payton “lock up” MJ which is the debate I was having lol


"Locked up" isn't the right phrase here but Payton certainly played him well and MJ didn't dominate him at all

That was in my first reply to you :lol

[RogueBorg]

lmao@theman93 jumping through hoops to defend some guy shooting horribly.

You still haven't explained Jordan shooting 50% in game 5 with Payton guarding him. Go.

[hold this L]

Payton was 2 inches shorter than Jordan. He had a plumbing license as well.

Payton didn't guard Jordan until game 4. The series went 2-1, in favour of the Sonics, with the 6'4" plumber clamping down Jordan.
Jordan's stats:
Game 4: 23 pts, 31.6 FG%
Game 5: 26 pts, 50 FG%
game 6: 22 pts, 26.3%

He got locked up.
Jokic's stats vs Rudy in the first 4 games were not good though, he just destroyed him in the last game. Which can happen to anyone.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jokic's stats vs Rudy in the first 4 games were not good though, he just destroyed him in the last game. Which can happen to anyone.

And it was a 1 possession game while he was supposedly destroyed

[elementally morale]

Jokic's stats vs Rudy in the first 4 games were not good though, he just destroyed him in the last game. Which can happen to anyone.

Gobert defended Jokic very well. The Gobert-KAT tandem is tough to go through and Minnesota played very good defense, especially on Jokic. As did the Lakers. They DID slow him down. This is what it looks like. When some people played great defense on Shaq (Hakeem for example) it still meant Shaq getting his.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ neither “destroyed” Payton nor did Payton “lock up” MJ which is the debate I was having lol

You really crashing out this hard over Mj being defended well by the dpoy? He shot worse with GP as his primary defender. The end.

[Reggie43]

Shaq has a lot of such stats.

Ostertag also held Shaq to quite decent numbers, around 25ppg, while being the one who swatted him the most. I believe Shaq has even said that Ostertag was his most difficult cover.

https://saltcityhoops.com/clash-of-the-titans-shaq-vs-greg-ostertag/

Ostertag had one good series defensively against Shaq but outside of that Shaq has had huge games against him including the playoffs. He has had 39, 39, 39, 38, 37 point games against him throughout their careers averaging 26ppg in their matchups.

[SATAN]

You still haven't explained Jordan shooting 50% in game 5 with Payton guarding him. Go.

I'm not even arguing about any of this. Wtf?

[theman93]

You really crashing out this hard over Mj being defended well by the dpoy? He shot worse with GP as his primary defender. The end.

Yeah because his shot was off not because GP was clamping him, as evidenced by game 5. The end.

[FireDavidKahn]

What's funny is that Jokic abused AD even worse and everyone already forgot:roll:

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah because his shot was off not because GP was clamping him, as evidenced by game 5. The end.

Yeah because his shot was off, right? that's weak af even for an Mj stan. So then I guess all the times he had big games he was just lucky right? Nonsense. His shot was "off" because he had the dpoy on him, this is one of the stupidest excuses I've seen made for him. Right up there with he could shoot 3s he just didn't want to.....

[fsvr54]

was*

[theman93]

Yeah because his shot was off, right? that's weak af even for an Mj stan. So then I guess all the times he had big games he was just lucky right? Nonsense. His shot was "off" because he had the dpoy on him, this is one of the stupidest excuses I've seen made for him. Right up there with he could shoot 3s he just didn't want to.....

If what you were saying was true, he wouldn’t have shot so efficiently in game 5. Period the end.

[SATAN]

Spot the guy that's never played a serious game of basketball in his life...

[SATAN]

Actually, I will reword that since some people study the game beyond surface level despite not playing...Spot the absolute casual...

[sdot_thadon]

If what you were saying was true, he wouldn’t have shot so efficiently in game 5. Period the end.

So no one's ever had a good game vs elite defense? I mean having one good game sandwiched between. 2 bad ones totally erases the bad ones right? If he only had a single bad game, you could write it off as that and not one would raise an eyebrow. He had 2 out of 3 with a world title on the line after doing significantly better before GP was guarding him. Fairy tales win the day though. Only Mj stans.....

[ImKobe]

What's funny is that Jokic abused AD even worse and everyone already forgot:roll:

AD did well against Jokic tf u smoking on. He had no help on D compared to what the Wolves got at all positions. They had to take AD off Jokic because of it.

[FireDavidKahn]

AD did well against Jokic tf u smoking on. He had no help on D compared to what the Wolves got at all positions. They had to take AD off Jokic because of it.

Jokic vs. the Lakers: 28.2 ppg on 59.1%/33.3%/92.6%, 16.2 rpg, 9.8 apg

"AD did great"

Jokic vs. Gobert/KAT: 28.2 ppg on 52.8%/24%/89.2%, 10.2rpg, 8 apg

"DPOY getting torched."

The narrative is hilarious

[theman93]

So no one's ever had a good game vs elite defense? I mean having one good game sandwiched between. 2 bad ones totally erases the bad ones right? If he only had a single bad game, you could write it off as that and not one would raise an eyebrow. He had 2 out of 3 with a world title on the line after doing significantly better before GP was guarding him. Fairy tales win the day though. Only Mj stans.....

Lol go rewatch the games bud they are free. Many of the shots he missed weren’t even with GP defending him and even the ones he did miss with GP on him were routine shots he creates enough space to not be bothered and he just misses. If there’s anything GP should be commended for those games it was his ball denial.

[ImKobe]

Jokic vs. the Lakers: 28.2 ppg on 59.1%/33.3%/92.6%, 16.2 rpg, 9.8 apg

"AD did great"

Jokic vs. Gobert/KAT: 28.2 ppg on 52.8%/24%/89.2%, 10.2rpg, 8 apg

"DPOY getting torched."

The narrative is hilarious

Go and watch the series. AD did just as well as Toody defending Jokic 1 on 1, Lakers did not have other bigs nor great defenders on the perimeter.

[ShawkFactory]

Lol go rewatch the games bud they are free. Many of the shots he missed weren’t even with GP defending him and even the ones he did miss with GP on him were routine shots he creates enough space to not be bothered and he just misses. If there’s anything GP should be commended for those games it was his ball denial.

Well yea he was making him work harder in general.

[theman93]

Well yea he was making him work harder in general.

Not when it came to MJ actually attempting a field goal, no he really didn’t. And if you really believe he did, tell me me which ones and I’ll go back and watch.

[sdot_thadon]

Lol go rewatch the games bud they are free. Many of the shots he missed weren’t even with GP defending him and even the ones he did miss with GP on him were routine shots he creates enough space to not be bothered and he just misses. If there’s anything GP should be commended for those games it was his ball denial.

I'd respect what you just said if everyone we discuss here got to "just miss shots" they normally make, but you don't and I can't. And funnily enough this "just missed shots" narrative pretty much deads most of the criticism we throw at any great. So tell me is this just missed shots phenomenon an Mj exclusive?

[ShawkFactory]

Not when it came to MJ actually attempting a field goal, no he really didn’t. And if you really believe he did, tell me me which ones and I’ll go back and watch.

It’s been a while since I’ve watched. A couple years.

Was he able to get to his exact spots where he dominates? Did he move exactly the same way after fighting with GP off-ball? Rhythm affected in any way? Able to get downhill and convert some easier looks?

There are a lot of factors that a defender can play in throwing a game off. Again, Jordan have one game where he shot 50% from the field doesn’t mean that he didn’t still have great defense being played on him.

[theman93]

I'd respect what you just said if everyone we discuss here got to "just miss shots" they normally make, but you don't and I can't. And funnily enough this "just missed shots" narrative pretty much deads most of the criticism we throw at any great. So tell me is this just missed shots phenomenon an Mj exclusive?

Having gone back and watched each field goal attempt I absolutely do get to make that claim. Until you do the same your just speaking out of your ass.

[sdot_thadon]

Having gone back and watched each field goal attempt I absolutely do get to make that claim. Until you do the same your just speaking out of your ass.

I haven't gone back and watched each possession because i haven't deseperately needed that validation of something thats been retreaded a ton of times already if you're in the hoops community. I've seen videos on it and I heard plenty of interviews that he's(GP) done over the years about it, specifically his strategy agaisnt Mike. You're just doing the typical Mj stan thing. You're only worried about 1 thing. You're not looking at the ball denial and the fight for the spots Mj wanted to operate from he got from Gary along with being challenged verbally and mentally. He made Mj work and the results speak for themselves. Getting the shot you want isn't the same when you've had to fight and exert more energy than you're used to in order to get that look. Keep living in highlight videos though, you guys are becoming memes slowly but surely.

[theman93]

I haven't gone back and watched each possession because i haven't deseperately needed that validation of something thats been retreaded a ton of times already if you're in the hoops community. I've seen videos on it and I heard plenty of interviews that he's(GP) done over the years about it, specifically his strategy agaisnt Mike. You're just doing the typical Mj stan thing. You're only worried about 1 thing. You're not looking at the ball denial and the fight for the spots Mj wanted to operate from he got from Gary along with being challenged verbally and mentally. He made Mj work and the results speak for themselves. Getting the shot you want isn't the same when you've had to fight and exert more energy than you're used to in order to get that look. Keep living in highlight videos though, you guys are becoming memes slowly but surely.

Going to the tape isn’t stanning, sweety. Until you actually watch the games you can’t be taken seriously.

[Stephonit]

As has been already mentioned by others Steph did this very recently in the 2022 finals against Boston which going into the finals was being billed as a historic defensive team.

Not only did the Celtics feature the DPOY in Marcus Smart but they also had two other top 10 vote recipients for the award in Robert Williams and Al Horford. Smart and Williams were also selected for the All-Defensive First and Second Teams while four other teammates—Tatum, White, Brown, and Horford—got votes for All-Defensive Team.

[sdot_thadon]

Going to the tape isn’t stanning, sweety. Until you actually watch the games you can’t be taken seriously.

I watched them live buddy.

[theman93]

I watched them live buddy.

Maybe when you were in diapers. MJ was missing open shots GP wasn’t even affecting lol.

[sdot_thadon]

Maybe when you were in diapers. MJ was missing open shots GP wasn’t even affecting lol.

Whatever makes you sleep.at night my man. So he was just missing open shots? He choked then? Because that's what we call that in 2024 apparently.

[theman93]

Whatever makes you sleep.at night my man. So he was just missing open shots? He choked then? Because that's what we call that in 2024 apparently.
FMVP isn’t awarded to chokers buddy boy

[Gohan]

Lmao at trying to compare jokb1tch to mj.�� Marcus morris is a better comparison

[SATAN]

theclown93