Peak Jokic vs Peak Curry

[1987_Lakers]

Who do you got?

[j3lademaster]

Joker, easy. I love Steph Curry, but he has a lot of issues in the playoffs. Joker otoh, rises to the occasion when you need him most. The only players who have been able to consistently do that in the playoffs have been Jordan, Lebron, Kawhi and Big Honey; very short list.

[tontoz]

I went with Joker as well. I am a big Steph fan but Jokic is more consistent and can adjust better to the defense.

[tpols]

Curry is a top 10 player all time ~ 4 rings all with superstar production, GOAT season, only UMVP in history, etc.

But... he's capable of having bad games. Yolk might be the GOAT because he simply doesn't have bad games.

[bdonovan]

There is no question Curry is the better player. Jokic's game relies on one thing- his being bigger and heavier than other players. Without that, he is merely an above-average player- a good shot and a passer. Jokic barrels into the defender, creating open looks and double teams he can pass out of. Were he DeMarcus Cousins doing the same thing, he would foul out of the game.

Curry brings an unparalleled skill to the game that is obvious by watching him. Amazing handles, can dribble past anyone, absolute wizardry in ball-handling and facillitating, dribble penetration and finding teammates whereever they are, one of the best finishers at the rim, the best passer in the game, best off the ball, the best shooter in the game. And not spot up 3. That's not skill. He creates 3's, and still shoots at a high %, much higher difficulty than spot-up 3 pt shooters which adds minimal value to the team offense.

Superior conditioning. Curry at 35 has more in his legs down the stretch of a game than Jokic has in his 20s. The difference in conditioning shows in the quality of their play in the 2nd half.

Klay Thompson would be a 3 and D nobody on any other team. We wouldn't even be talking about him were he not on the Warriors. His wide open looks owe to Curry's gravity. Curry's ability to make people around him great is second to none. Look at Andrew Wiggins' emergence since he played with Steph. Jokic has that ability too with Aaron Gordon as an example, but Curry is famous for it- and has produced more as a result.

Neither player excels on defense but Curry is 100% committed and his work in the gym and conditioning shows. Jokic is simply too slow, doesn't contest well on the perimeter, and is lagging at the end of the game.

It's not easy to win 4 rings. Of players that won their first championship fully in the 2000s (2000-2001), it is exceedingly rare. Tony Parker and LeBron were the only other ones of that same era. If you look at anyone who won their first rings after 2010's- it's just LeBron and Curry as leaders of their teams.

[tpols]

To compare jokic to Demarcus cousins is so absurd there aren't even words in the English or any world language for that matter to describe it. We would have to travel to another galaxy and learn a higher dimensional form of communication to describe how bad that comparison is.

[warriorfan]

Curry makes his team better


Jokic racks up more counting stats though so I expect that will influence most posters

[Carbine]

Curry is a top 10 player all time ~ 4 rings all with superstar production, GOAT season, only UMVP in history, etc.

But... he's capable of having bad games. Yolk might be the GOAT because he simply doesn't have bad games.

Stop lying. We are just a week removed from people questioning Jokic greatness because of two bad games where he shot 42 percent and had 11 turnovers and to the eye was playing uninspired and borderline overmatched by the Timberwolves defense.

Do better troll

[j3lademaster]

Curry makes his team better


Jokic racks up more counting stats though so I expect that will influence most posters
Jokic makes his teammates better too wtf.

[tpols]

Jokic makes his teammates better too wtf.

Yup. They both do. Jokic hasn't really had a 2016 Finals thing happen though. Unless you count the bubble vs Dwight.

[tpols]

Stop lying. We are just a week removed from people questioning Jokic greatness because of two bad games where he shot 42 percent and had 11 turnovers and to the eye was playing uninspired and borderline overmatched by the Timberwolves defense.

Do better troll

And now they're up 3-2 and spanking them dummy. :lol

Wisen up, you hear me?

[warriorfan]

Jokic makes his teammates better too wtf.

Where did I say Jokic doesn’t? lol


Ok i’ll put this in a more simplistic manner…

Who is a better off ball player? Steph Curry or Jokic

[j3lademaster]

Where did I say Jokic doesn’t? lol


Ok i’ll put this in a more simplistic manner…

Who is a better off ball player? Steph Curry or Jokic

Curry makes his team better


Jokic racks up more counting stats though so I expect that will influence most posters You literally just passive aggressively implied a contrast in your post earlier.

[tontoz]

Steph's reliance on 3s leads to more variance day to day. Joker has been much more consistent in the playoffs.

[warriorfan]

You literally just passive aggressively implied a contrast in your post earlier.

no….

They both obviously make their teammates better, that’s like an absolute given, I was saying Steph helps his teammates more, there was no implication that Jokic doesn’t make his team better and no one would ever try to argue that in a basketball discussion.


long story short you are being autistic af

[SouBeachTalents]

Jokic is in that LeBron/Shaq/Hakeem tier of peak dominance, Curry’s a tier below that imo.

[Im Still Ballin]

Similar impact but Jokic's defensive limitations are harder to cover than Curry's. Neglible really, with the caveat of Steph being more ideal regarding high-level team/roster construction.

[Gohan]

Jokic is white, can't take anyone like that seriously. Therefore I chose curry

[tpols]

Jokic is white, can't take anyone like that seriously. Therefore I chose curry

Currys more white than black. His parents are both super lightskin. Unless you're adhering to the 1 drop rule lmao. Which was a white man distinction created specifically to discriminate.

[Axe]

The one who's international and didn't need six trips to the finals just to win his very first finals mvp.

[Mask the Embiid]

The one that has 4x as many rings…wtf :oldlol:. The one that is in the top 10 all time….the one that’s going to win the gold medal this year….the one that has a winning record vs the other one….i can keep going you sacks of shit

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jokic and it's not even remotely close. Seriously. It's not even a debate.

[FultzNationRISE]

A dominant big man just has a more efficient, consistent impact on the game than a jump shooter IMO, even if its the best shooter ever. And in this specific case when you compare intangibles and performance under pressure, it’s just an easy call.

Some guys are overrated or underrated by the public bc of very superficial things. People think Westbrook and Harden winning MVPs puts them in some kind of Top 50 ever category. They dont seem to notice or care that these guys cant be counted on when it matters. Which is more important, averaging a triple double in the regular season or excelling above the competition when it matters? Most fans have dumb priorities. It doesnt seem to matter to them that you woukdnt even WANT these guys in meaningful moments. And yet fans think theyre great. Its just parroting the common narrative. “I see their picture a lot, the league gave them an MVP. If I have to give an opinion I just rely on that. I cant really analyze their impact.” Theyre not being rational. Theyre not looking at evidence.

Curry of course IS clearly preferable to Harden and Westbrook. But his track record is that when it really matters… youre not sure youll get GREATNESS. In the regular season, absolutely. Record breaking, circus making, never been done kind of shooting brilliance. When its all on the line, and an agitator specialist like Delladova comes in to harass him? Curry gets thrown off a bit. He also gets too “dancey” when he makes a couple, and too pouty when he doesnt. He gets a bit too “casual behind the back passy” when hes trying to look cool in a critical finals moment. Compared to Jokic hes just a bit more poser and less killer.

It’s not a KNOCK on Curry to say hes less reliably great than Jokic. How many people arent?

It’s just a genuine fact. You can tell because the guys who hate jokic (bdonovan, maskembiid) or love curry (warriorfan) get emotional about it, while people who are neutral are just like “yeah, it’s jokic.”

Im sure there are some whod take Curry without an agenda. It’s fair to disagree. But MOST people who are just being matter of fact, take Jokic. And theres a reason for it.

[warriorfan]

A dominant big man just has a more efficient, consistent impact on the game than a jump shooter IMO, even if its the best shooter ever. And in this specific case when you compare intangibles and performance under pressure, it’s just an easy call.

Some guys are overrated or underrated by the public bc of very superficial things. People think Westbrook and Harden winning MVPs puts them in some kind of Top 50 ever category. They dont seem to notice or care that these guys cant be counted on when it matters. Which is more important, averaging a triple double in the regular season or excelling above the competition when it matters? Most fans have dumb priorities. It doesnt seem to matter to them that you woukdnt even WANT these guys in meaningful moments. And yet fans think theyre great. Its just parroting the common narrative. “I see their picture a lot, the league gave them an MVP. If I have to give an opinion I just rely on that. I cant really analyze their impact.” Theyre not being rational. Theyre not looking at evidence.

Curry of course IS clearly preferable to Harden and Westbrook. But his track record is that when it really matters… youre not sure youll get GREATNESS. In the regular season, absolutely. Record breaking, circus making, never been done kind of shooting brilliance. When its all on the line, and an agitator specialist like Delladova comes in to harass him? Curry gets thrown off a bit. He also gets too “dancey” when he makes a couple, and too pouty when he doesnt. He gets a bit too “casual behind the back passy” when hes trying to look cool in a critical finals moment. Compared to Jokic hes just a bit more poser and less killer.

It’s not a KNOCK on Curry to say hes less reliably great than Jokic. How many people arent?

It’s just a genuine fact. You can tell because the guys who hate jokic (bdonovan, maskembiid) or love curry (warriorfan) get emotional about it, while people who are neutral are just like “yeah, it’s jokic.”

Im sure there are some whod take Curry without an agenda. It’s fair to disagree. But MOST people who are just being matter of fact, take Jokic. And theres a reason for it.

tbh you are the one who gets emotional as well

you really hate curry dancing after 3 pointers, you hate it to the point where you dwell on it an unnecessary amount of the time and it’s obviously effected how you evaluate him as a player. Your takes on Curry have been so off base at times I think you are doing a troll, then I realize you aren’t, you just have let your biases cloud your judgement so much the stuff you say about him is just not true.


look i’m not going to sit here and debate all day, just letting you know from an outside perspective and you can take it or leave it, your steph curry takes are heavily biased and way off base.

[elementally morale]

Jokic. For three main reasons:

1) Each and every player who is NBA ready can play with him and will play their best basketball with him on the court. Everybody. You don't need to look for a certain type of player. It's plug and play.
2) If you double or triple him he will still beat you. If you double or triple Curry, the team will beat you. He draws attention and the others have numbers. With Jokic, it's still him.
3) Both players changed the game. It comes down to personal preference, but I like watching teamplay and passing more than lots of threes taken. I'm simply more entertained by a Jokic-led offense.

All that being said, I think both players are top 15. Curry won't go any higher. It's borderline top 10 at best. (Which is great.) We don't know what Jokic will do in the next 5 years, but he is not 30 yet. He can win some more rings, and one more MVP is not unlikely. (Honestly, not very likely either. He needs to play out of his mind to get another one. If it is debatable he won't win it again.)

[StrongLurk]

Curry is a top 10 player all time ~ 4 rings all with superstar production, GOAT season, only UMVP in history, etc.

But... he's capable of having bad games. Yolk might be the GOAT because he simply doesn't have bad games.

In no world is Curry ahead of any of these players.

MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Bill R, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, or Kobe.

[SouBeachTalents]

In no world is Curry ahead of any of these players.

MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Bill R, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, or Kobe.
I'd have Kobe ranked higher, but acting like you couldn't even make the argument over him is ridiculous.

[StrongLurk]

There is no question Curry is the better player. Jokic's game relies on one thing- his being bigger and heavier than other players. Without that, he is merely an above-average player- a good shot and a passer. Jokic barrels into the defender, creating open looks and double teams he can pass out of. Were he DeMarcus Cousins doing the same thing, he would foul out of the game.

Curry brings an unparalleled skill to the game that is obvious by watching him. Amazing handles, can dribble past anyone, absolute wizardry in ball-handling and facillitating, dribble penetration and finding teammates whereever they are, one of the best finishers at the rim, the best passer in the game, best off the ball, the best shooter in the game. And not spot up 3. That's not skill. He creates 3's, and still shoots at a high %, much higher difficulty than spot-up 3 pt shooters which adds minimal value to the team offense.

Superior conditioning. Curry at 35 has more in his legs down the stretch of a game than Jokic has in his 20s. The difference in conditioning shows in the quality of their play in the 2nd half.

Klay Thompson would be a 3 and D nobody on any other team. We wouldn't even be talking about him were he not on the Warriors. His wide open looks owe to Curry's gravity. Curry's ability to make people around him great is second to none. Look at Andrew Wiggins' emergence since he played with Steph. Jokic has that ability too with Aaron Gordon as an example, but Curry is famous for it- and has produced more as a result.

Neither player excels on defense but Curry is 100% committed and his work in the gym and conditioning shows. Jokic is simply too slow, doesn't contest well on the perimeter, and is lagging at the end of the game.

It's not easy to win 4 rings. Of players that won their first championship fully in the 2000s (2000-2001), it is exceedingly rare. Tony Parker and LeBron were the only other ones of that same era. If you look at anyone who won their first rings after 2010's- it's just LeBron and Curry as leaders of their teams.

What is this nonsense?

Curry has one ring as the best player in the series, which is 2022.

Lebron and KD cucked Curry and were clearly superior to him in those playoffs/finals battle. Curry by himself in 2015 and 2016 was very underwhelming. I love Curry, but he is overrated at this time and is not a top 10 player of all time.

I'll take what Jokic did last year over anything Curry has done.

[Carbine]

Jokic is a better playoff scorer (30 ppg average over the last four years on 63 ts)

He's a better passer.

A better conductor of offense.

Better rebounder.

Defensive impact is a wash.

Consistent dominance game to game is in Jokic favor during the playoffs as well.

Not sure what the argument is for Playoff Curry over Playoff Jokic

[FultzNationRISE]

tbh you are the one who gets emotional as well

you really hate curry dancing after 3 pointers, you hate it to the point where you dwell on it an unnecessary amount of the time and it’s obviously effected how you evaluate him as a player. Your takes on Curry have been so off base at times I think you are doing a troll, then I realize you aren’t, you just have let your biases cloud your judgement so much the stuff you say about him is just not true.

look i’m not going to sit here and debate all day, just letting you know from an outside perspective and you can take it or leave it, your steph curry takes are heavily biased and way off base.

It doesnt upset me, it's just my main knock on him so I bring it up when he's discussed. Someone thinking he's the GOAT isnt gonna affect my mood in real life for a single moment.

But if your team's down 10 in a big playoff game, and you havent been a factor, and then suddenly Barbosa hits a shot, and then Iguodala hits a shot, and then Bogut gets a block, and then Green steals a pass, and then Livingston hits a shot, all while you've contributed very little, and then suddenly your teammates have tied the game up, and then you finally make a shot and start skipping around celebrating and shimmying like you been bustin em up all game, and it's still only mid 3rd quarter and nothing has even been clinched yet :lol I mean it's just cringe.

And then feelin yourself so much youre tryin to throw slick, unnecessary passes that result in turnovers... the guy's just always out there trying more to look like Mr Cool for the nickelodeon kids choice award photographers than he is locked in trying to convert the win before celebrating. Compared to any other all time great he's way more focused on flash and silliness than he is on converting the win. It's a fact.

I dont think the average person appreciates this difference. But it's something that to me is easily a top factor when I'm identifying things that separate guys with similar achievements on paper. A lot of achievements are circumstantial. How a guy conducts himself is not circumstantial.

[tpols]

In no world is Curry ahead of any of these players.

MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Bill R, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, or Kobe.


Curry is literally better than everybody on that list except MJ, Wilt, Kobe, and Bill Russell.

I actually undermined myself with my initial statement. Curry is top 5 all time. But Yolk is GOAT level.

We're splitting hairs here though and I'm sure we're mostly in agreement.

[Norcaliblunt]

Jokic was swept out of the playoffs the first year he won MVP. Dude got so frustrated he straight up threw a cheap shot and ejected his own ass out of an elimination game. Lmao. Curry has never choked that hard.

This Jokic dude gets so much hype it’s ridiculous.

[Im Still Ballin]

My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!

[Overdrive]

Jokic was swept out of the playoffs the first year he won MVP. Dude got so frustrated he straight up threw a cheap shot and ejected his own ass out of an elimination game. Lmao. Curry has never choked that hard.

This Jokic dude gets so much hype it’s ridiculous.

Curry threw his mouthguard onto a fan. That's just selective memory.

Overall Curry had more impact on the landscape of the NBA. Jokic is such a unicorn that his skillset can't be imitated. The whole NBA tries to play like the mid 10 Warriors played.

[warriorfan]

It doesnt upset me, it's just my main knock on him so I bring it up when he's discussed. Someone thinking he's the GOAT isnt gonna affect my mood in real life for a single moment.

But if your team's down 10 in a big playoff game, and you havent been a factor, and then suddenly Barbosa hits a shot, and then Iguodala hits a shot, and then Bogut gets a block, and then Green steals a pass, and then Livingston hits a shot, all while you've contributed very little, and then suddenly your teammates have tied the game up, and then you finally make a shot and start skipping around celebrating and shimmying like you been bustin em up all game, and it's still only mid 3rd quarter and nothing has even been clinched yet :lol I mean it's just cringe.

And then feelin yourself so much youre tryin to throw slick, unnecessary passes that result in turnovers... the guy's just always out there trying more to look like Mr Cool for the nickelodeon kids choice award photographers than he is locked in trying to convert the win before celebrating. Compared to any other all time great he's way more focused on flash and silliness than he is on converting the win. It's a fact.

I dont think the average person appreciates this difference. But it's something that to me is easily a top factor when I'm identifying things that separate guys with similar achievements on paper. A lot of achievements are circumstantial. How a guy conducts himself is not circumstantial.

what’s crazy is you went on a half decade crusade against kobe for hero balling and how hero ball is stupid and it’s only a fraction of the game that gets falsely extrapolated to meaning everything


then you flipped 180 when you want to disparage curry, now curry isn’t good because he isn’t hero balling


keep it consistent


and I would like to say you are allowed to have your basketball opinions evolve over time, just because you think one thing 10 years ago doesn’t necessarily mean you have to die with it

in this case in my opinion it feels extremely disingenuous

:confusedshrug:

[StrongLurk]

Curry is literally better than everybody on that list except MJ, Wilt, Kobe, and Bill Russell.

I actually undermined myself with my initial statement. Curry is top 5 all time. But Yolk is GOAT level.

We're splitting hairs here though and I'm sure we're mostly in agreement.

Cringe

[Norcaliblunt]

Curry threw his mouthguard onto a fan. That's just selective memory.

Not while getting swept during an elimination game in the second round as the MVP. Lmao.

Jokic the leagues MVP literally was swept out of the playoffs so bad that he flagrant fouled little ass Cameron Payne because he was so frustrated. Lol.

[tontoz]

Jokic was swept out of the playoffs the first year he won MVP. Dude got so frustrated he straight up threw a cheap shot and ejected his own ass out of an elimination game. Lmao. Curry has never choked that hard.

This Jokic dude gets so much hype it’s ridiculous.



How is it choking when Denver lost to the top seed without Murray?

:facepalm

[Carbine]

Who gives a **** about 8-10 SRS? Like you and a few people in the world. It's a nothing burger in the grand scheme of things.

Jokic has never had a team/talent level that warranted 65+ wins. Read what I'm going to say twice just to make sure it sinks in all the holes in your brain.

Jokic has NEVER played with an all NBA teammate, an all defense teammate or all star. I believe he is the ONLY MVP and champion that can say that in the history of the game.

Jokic plays in such a way that FOSTERS great team chemistry. His defensive shortcomings are totally overblown. The Nuggets had a very good playoff defense last year and they once again are playing very good defense.

The Mavericks had the #1 ranked defense the last quarter of the regular season with Doncic and Kyrie who are not known for defense whatsoever. This just shows that just because you have one liability (Jokic isn't even a liability, not even close) doesn't mean you can't play team defense at a high level.

[warriorfan]

Similar impact but Jokic's defensive limitations are harder to cover than Curry's. Neglible really, with the caveat of Steph being more ideal regarding high-level team/roster construction.


My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!


These posts stress a great point.

Curry has a lack of defense (even though it gets overstated, he wasn’t a negative on defense in his prime). However at the point guard position it’s the position where it’s the easiest to hide a defender.

Out of all the positions point guard has the least defensive responsibility, and the most offensive.

So like ISB said from a team construction standpoint, Curry can be dropped in almost anywhere.

I think Jokic and Curry share the same boat while they are obviously offensive oriented players, them being so good at offense gets people to overly disrespect their defense. Both Curry and Jokic are not net negatives on the defense end.


That being said the front court has more defensive responsibility when compared to the point guard position. It hurts the team more to have an average defender at Center rather than point guard. It makes roster construction a little bit more tricky as well.




Sum it up, Jokic and Curry both have GOAT offensive impact, and hover around breaking even or a little positive on the defensive end. However due to positional roles, Curry is a better fit for this archetype when it’s at the point guard position rather than Center.

[Im Still Ballin]

2015 Warriors: 67-15 W/L; 10.01 SRS; +6 rORtg and -4.2 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)
2016 Warriors: 73-9 W/L; 10.38 SRS; +8.1 rORtg and -2.6 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)
2017 Warriors: 67-15 W/L; 11.35 SRS; +6.8 rORtg and -4.8 rDRtg (Stacked!)

The best that Denver has done:

2024 Nuggets: 57-25; 5.23 SRS; +3.2 rORtg and -2.3 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)

The bench is the obvious area for improvement. But that alone isn't going to take Denver to 2015 and 2016 GSW level. And when I compare the talent in the starting lineups? Not that different TBH. Dray, Bogut, Barnes, and Klay is nice. But so is Gordon, Porter Jr, KCP, and Murray.

[warriorfan]

Who gives a **** about 8-10 SRS? Like you and a few people in the world. It's a nothing burger in the grand scheme of things.

Jokic has never had a team/talent level that warranted 65+ wins. Read what I'm going to say twice just to make sure it sinks in all the holes in your brain.

Jokic has NEVER played with an all NBA teammate, an all defense teammate or all star. I believe he is the ONLY MVP and champion that can say that in the history of the game.

Jokic plays in such a way that FOSTERS great team chemistry. His defensive shortcomings are totally overblown. The Nuggets had a very good playoff defense last year and they once again are playing very good defense.

The Mavericks had the #1 ranked defense the last quarter of the regular season with Doncic and Kyrie who are not known for defense whatsoever. This just shows that just because you have one liability (Jokic isn't even a liability, not even close) doesn't mean you can't play team defense at a high level.

Just to clarify , Murray would be all nba if he didn’t have health issues,

His post season run where Nuggets won the chip was definitely All NBA caliber of play.

[Im Still Ballin]

Upgrade Denver's bench and swap out AG for Giannis or Anthony Davis and you'd have a 8-10+ SRS, all-time great team. But you'd be stacking the deck harder than the 2015 and 2016 GSW teams. Curry can lead a team like that with less to work with. Because his positional deficiencies aren't as critical as Nikola's. Easier to source the right parts and components when building a team - at a cheaper cost.

[Norcaliblunt]

How is it choking when Denver lost to the top seed without Murray?

:facepalm

Phoenix wasn’t the top seed. They would have never even beat the Lakers if AD hadn’t gone down. Shit over the hill Chris Paul also had his usual playoff injuries going on too. Lol.

So the leagues MVP and arguably the greatest offensive big man of all time couldn’t take one game from Deandre Ayton and the Suns? Lol. And on top of that he couldn’t even have the composure to not commit a cheap foul and get ejected like a bitch. Lmao.

[FultzNationRISE]

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!

Curry built Iguodala and Bogut and Draymond and Livingston and Klay and Barnes and Barbosa from a box of scraps?

I dont...

I'm not sure what you even...



I'm confused.

[Im Still Ballin]

Curry built Iguodala and Bogut and Draymond and Livingston and Klay and Barnes and Barbosa from a box of scraps?

I dont...

I'm not sure what you even...



I'm confused.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piqGKmqbNZ8&ab_channel=BLACK

[tpols]

Just to clarify , Murray would be all nba if he didn’t have health issues,

His post season run where Nuggets won the chip was definitely All NBA caliber of play.

If Klay ever played like Murray in the playoffs... Golden State would've NEVER acquired Durant nor would they have lost in 2016. That guy was putting up Wade or Kobe numbers while klay was shitting the bed at 16 ppg giving nothing else.

[tontoz]

Phoenix wasn’t the top seed. They would have never even beat the Lakers if AD hadn’t gone down. Shit over the hill Chris Paul also had his usual playoff injuries going on too. Lol.

So the leagues MVP and arguably the greatest offensive big man of all time couldn’t take one game from Deandre Ayton and the Suns? Lol. And on top of that he couldn’t even have the composure to not commit a cheap foul and get ejected like a bitch. Lmao.


Denver had Frank Compazzo and Austin Rivers in the starting lineup. Neither guy was in the league this past season.

The Suns were one game out of 1st place that year, made it to the Finals, then won 64 games the next year for the best record in the league.

[warriorfan]

If Klay ever played like Murray in the playoffs... Golden State would've NEVER acquired Durant nor would they have lost in 2016.

Definitely. Murray was pretty amazing during their title run. I just had to call that out because he says “jokic never even played with all nba players”….its insinuating he had no help. Murray was going off in the post season and his cast played well too. Not to take away from Joker but it’s it’s a false narrative to say he had no help.

[Akeem34TheDream]

My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!

I see your point. Curry teams have higher ceilings and Jokic teams have higher floors. I also rate higher ceiling more. Therefore MJ > Lebron. Curry might be the greatest offensive engine ever(for the regular season at least). However in the playoffs, no franchise in history had more luck during their championships than the Warriors. Their strongest opponents got their stars injured in 2017 and 2018. They played an injured team in every single playoff round. Only in 2022 they beat everybody healthy. Otoh(shout out to 3ball) Jokic lost his 2 prime years to teammate injuries. When Klay couldnt play in 2019-20 season, Warriors decided to straight up tank lmao. Jokic has been better in the playoffs and that matters more to me.

[Norcaliblunt]

Denver had Frank Compazzo and Austin Rivers in the starting lineup. Neither guy was in the league this past season.

The Suns were one game out of 1st place that year, made it to the Finals, then won 64 games the next year for the best record in the league.

That Suns team proved to be frauds though. Lakers beat them if AD stays healthy, Clippers beat them if Leonard stays healthy, and we all saw what Giannis did to them.

Luka alone destroyed that 64 win Suns team the next year, so why couldn’t MVP Jokic even take one game from a less superior team with Chris Paul playing through a shoulder injury?

[FultzNationRISE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piqGKmqbNZ8&ab_channel=BLACK



https://youtu.be/leZgZGG1E1Q?si=1jv2NSvoUlhUgA6T

[Carbine]

Definitely. Murray was pretty amazing during their title run. I just had to call that out because he says “jokic never even played with all nba players”….its insinuating he had no help. Murray was going off in the post season and his cast played well too. Not to take away from Joker but it’s it’s a false narrative to say he had no help.

I am insinuating that he hasn't had any help relative to what other ATG regular season teams have had

What Murray did in the playoffs has nothing to do with the regular season. Murray provided excellent help in the title run, but I'm arguing about regular season SRS here and how Jokic is harder to build a great team around for SRS purposes. Klay Thompson's struggles in the playoffs mean nothing as well - this is strictly a conversation about regular season SRS capability.

[Akeem34TheDream]

That Suns team proved to be frauds though. Lakers beat them if AD stays healthy, Clippers beat them if Leonard stays healthy, and we all saw what Giannis did to them.

Luka alone destroyed that 64 win Suns team the next year, so why couldn’t MVP Jokic even take one game from a less superior team with Chris Paul playing through a shoulder injury?

Imo that Suns series is the worst of his entire career. He was bad. CP3 COOKED him. I was harsh on him also. But every other ATG have worse preformances than that, don't they?

[tontoz]

That Suns team proved to be frauds though. Lakers beat them if AD stays healthy, Clippers beat them if Leonard stays healthy, and we all saw what Giannis did to them.

Luka alone destroyed that 64 win Suns team the next year, so why couldn’t MVP Jokic even take one game from a less superior team with Chris Paul playing through a shoulder injury?


How many starters on that Suns team aren't in the NBA now?

[Micku]

Just to clarify , Murray would be all nba if he didn’t have health issues,

His post season run where Nuggets won the chip was definitely All NBA caliber of play.


I don't think so. Not to say it's a diss towards Murray, but it's a respect to the competition. Like honestly, who would you cut?

I don't think Murray is better than:
Luka
Curry
SGA
Devin Booker
Ja Morant
De'Aaron Fox
Dame
Donovan Mitchell

And last year, Devin Booker didn't even get into the All-NBA. This year, you got Brunson now. You got Maxey is showing out. Although I feel Murray could do things similar, but Maxey I feel has more potential due to his speed and quickness. Murray is tough shot maker. And you still have Trae Young out there.

Like who would you cut for him to be in the All-NBA? I feel like all of those guys are better with the small exception of Maxey, but I feel like Maxey played better this year. But Murray does play at high level in the playoffs usually. He just isn't consistent enough to play like that in the RS. I feel like Murray could be better than what he is, but he is injury-prone. He does show up in big games.

I can't honestly say that he's an all-nba guy when others consistently provide similar or more production. There are times when Murray could play to that level and you see his potential, but there are legit other guys in the guard position that are better production-wise. The league is stacked full of talent right now, so it's hard to get into all-nba. But Murray could play like it sometimes like in the playoffs. If he keeps that level of play, Denver would be even more dangerous.

[Norcaliblunt]

How many starters on that Suns team aren't in the NBA now?

Chris Paul shouldn’t be that’s for sure.

How many players on that Suns team were MVP hailed to be a top 20 player ever and are frequently argued to be the best offensive big man of all time?

[tontoz]

Chris Paul shouldn’t be that’s for sure.

How many players on that Suns team were MVP hailed to be a top 20 player ever and are frequently argued to be the best offensive big man of all time?


How far did Curry get in the playoffs with Klay? Or should i say when did he actually make the playoffs without Klay?

[ImKobe]

What issues did Steph have, other than when he played on one leg in 2016?

It's too early for this right now. Jokic is still at his peak and has more to do before I'd put him over peak Steph. Steph had more help I agree but that also led to the most dominant RS ever in 2016, followed by the most dominant Playoff run ever in 2017.

Even when KD got injured he took them to the Finals and had one of the greatest individual series in NBA history against Portland in 2019, and took prime Kawhi to 6 games with half the GS rotation injured. I'd argue that Curry's 2022 title run was more impressive than anything Jokic has done so far in the POs, and that was a past-prime Steph with a team that was arguably worse than any of the healthy Denver ones.

[fsvr54]

Jokic easily lol

[Axe]

How far did Curry get in the playoffs with Klay? Or should i say when did he actually make the playoffs without Klay?
No klay, no play. :ohwell:

[Norcaliblunt]

How far did Curry get in the playoffs with Klay? Or should i say when did he actually make the playoffs without Klay?

Hey I’m not going hate on Klay. Steph needed him.

And I’m not hating on Jokic because he lost that 2021 series to Phoenix. The Suns probably were the better overall team. I’m being critical because of the way he lost while being MVP. He was swept in second round by a team that hadn’t made the playoffs in 10 years and he got so frustrated he was tossed from the elimination game. Lol. If that were Curry his first MVP season we’d never hear the end of it. Jokic is a great player but he is not without faults.

[warriorfan]

What issues did Steph have, other than when he played on one leg in 2016?

It's too early for this right now. Jokic is still at his peak and has more to do before I'd put him over peak Steph. Steph had more help I agree but that also led to the most dominant RS ever in 2016, followed by the most dominant Playoff run ever in 2017.

Even when KD got injured he took them to the Finals and had one of the greatest individual series in NBA history against Portland in 2019, and took prime Kawhi to 6 games with half the GS rotation injured. I'd argue that Curry's 2022 title run was more impressive than anything Jokic has done so far in the POs, and that was a past-prime Steph with a team that was arguably worse than any of the healthy Denver ones.

ask FultzNationRise

he will give you some anecdote about how he remembers a time where steph curry turned the ball over in the fourth quarter, so that means he is a choker….or some in depth analysis like that lol

[tontoz]

Hey I’m not going hate on Klay. Steph needed him.

And I’m not hating on Jokic because he lost that 2021 series to Phoenix. The Suns probably were the better overall team. I’m being critical because of the way he lost while being MVP. He was swept in second round by a team that hadn’t made the playoffs in 10 years and he got so frustrated he was tossed from the elimination game. Lol. If that were Curry his first MVP season we’d never hear the end of it. Jokic is a great player but he is not without faults.


It was literally a miracle that he got to the 2nd round with that roster. Everyone besides Jokic got hurt that year. They picked Rivers up off waivers late in the season and he was starting in the playoffs lol.

[elementally morale]

With Jokic I can say with a straight face that he is playing at a level I've never seen higher for an extended time period. Do I select Bird or Jokic as my franchise player is a debate I am willing to take part in. I may side with Bird, but I'd take the question seriously. Jokic or Shaq? Jokic or... it would make me think. The Curry and Kobe types are not in this discussion for me. As great as they are/were, I know I would not take them over the best players I've seen. Jokic is among the best of the best as far as quality of play is concerned. All the accolades are not (yet?) there, but basing this off of 'ability to play' he is tier 1 for me.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

It’s close. I don’t see Curry winning more than one in Jokic’s stead, though I can absolutely envision Jok winning 4 or more with Steph’s help.

Edit: reading comprehension fail. Peak4peak, give me Jokic. Playoff riser and more durable. I understand Curry’s gravity holds a lot of latent value that goes beyond the box score, but he’s had some plain bad series.

[Axe]

It’s close. I don’t see Curry winning more than one in Jokic’s stead, though I can absolutely envision Jok winning 4 or more with Steph’s help.

Edit: reading comprehension fail. Peak4peak, give me Jokic. Playoff riser and more durable. I understand Curry’s gravity holds a lot of latent value that goes beyond the box score, but he’s had some plain bad series.
Yup. Curry blew a 3-1 lead in the finals with a 73-win team.

[ImKobe]

ask FultzNationRise

he will give you some anecdote about how he remembers a time where steph curry turned the ball over in the fourth quarter, so that means he is a choker….or some in depth analysis like that lol

Which is crazy because Murray has carried Jokic in so many clutch moments in the Playoffs. Jokic fans/Curry haters will use the "no all-stars/all-NBA teammates" argument to boost him in this debate but ignore how Jamal Murray turns into a Kobe/Jordan clone in the Playoffs when it matters most.

Murray as the #2 averaged 26/6/7/2 on 59%TS for the title run last year.

Steph won 2 titles without any of his teammates averaging 20 a game for the Playoffs.

[ShawkFactory]

Which is crazy because Murray has carried Jokic in so many clutch moments in the Playoffs. Jokic fans/Curry haters will use the "no all-stars/all-NBA teammates" argument to boost him in this debate but ignore how Jamal Murray turns into a Kobe/Jordan clone in the Playoffs when it matters most.

Murray as the #2 averaged 26/6/7/2 on 59%TS for the title run last year.

Steph won 2 titles without any of his teammates averaging 20 a game for the Playoffs.

Yea but the quality of opponent that the Warriors had through through both of those runs are some of the weakest I can remember. Not that that matters in the long run though. Still respect. But it matters when trying to compare things across years.

They were fortunate with injuries quite a bit through both of those. If you're going to mention injuries in years they lost it's only fair to mention the other side. I'm okay ignoring it altogether as these things tend to come out in the wash. But be consistent.

[bizil]

It's Joker BECAUSE he's the most skilled offensive center ever. He's the best passing center as well and one of the top 10 passers of all time REGARDLESS of position. And triple double wise, he's likely gonna rank #1 of all time REGARDLESS of position. He's the CLOSEST THING we've seen to a center position of Larry Legend. Bird was the best player in the world at one point just like Joker is now.

No knock against Steph BUT Joker is getting to where ONLY guys like MJ, Bron, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq can be considered as good or better peak prime wise. Small guards like Steph, AI, Zeke, CP3, etc. are simply too small to be superior to those guys. GOAT wise, Steph has the clear edge though.

[plowking]

My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!


I actually think its crazy the Nuggets are this good with that roster.

I look at OKC, Boston, Minny, Clippers, Bucks, etc and they are all significantly more talented IMO.

Jokic is a great floor raiser, and able to do a lot with very little. GSW were an insanely talented team. I don't think that of this Denver team.

[FultzNationRISE]

Ok so for the record:

Warrior fan and NorCali Blunt would take Curry. Mostly everyone else taking Jokic.

Im sure warrior fan, and nor cali are objective about curry and golden state tho. It’s not an agenda thing, theyre right and everyone else is wrong! :lol


Hey did you guys know Real Men Wear Green rates Tatum the highest of any poster here?

It’s a shocking coincidence!

[FultzNationRISE]

Youd think people with an OBVIOUS BIAS IN THEIR NAME could just concede “hey, im obviously not objective, but im takin curry, or tatum, or whoever.” It’s not a big deal. These men are strangers. You dont get a prize for convincing others theyre the bestest.

The petty insistence that theyre being totally neutral about prefering their guy is just not great self awareness.

[BarberSchool]

Steph is a truly great all time great. Changed the game forever.

But … he can’t simply choose to take over a game in the same way that Jokic can.
Neither can truly PHYSICALLY dominate ANY game, but Kokic sure can do something similar to physical willfull dominance far more frequently, against far more matchups than Steph can even attempt to willfully exert on demand.

Perimeter-based, gravity-based “dominance” can never be as “durable” and “sustainable” as paint-based, ball-movement based, passing-based “dominance”

[NBAGOAT]

im conflicted. Jokic is more consistent in playoffs for sure. I dont think many have peaked like curry on offense in 16 and his help in this discussion gets overrated. His teams certainly had talent but that was defensive talent with dray,iggy, bogut, klay etc. On offense they had 1.5 creators in curry and draymond who can pass but not a scorer. Klay was a great shotmaker but didnt create for others. The nuggets have like 2.5 with jokic/murray and gordon(the draymond role) to a certain extent and 2 excellent floor spacers in porter and kcp. dont look at nuggets not having any all stars, they have more offensive talent than the 15-16 gs teams even relative to era and their defense is above average. most title teams have at least 2 shot creators. the 2022 team sure had 2.5 adding poole but recent history suggests poole might not have been that good. That team was deep but had 1 superstar and 1 all star in dray(wiggins,poole, klay werent all star lvl).

Warriors had some relatively easy runs in 15 and 22 but the nuggets run was also relatively easy last year. 22 warriors faced the celtics in finals at least. Nuggets certainly will have an extremely tough run this year but havent won the title yet.

[FultzNationRISE]

Did you guys know Mask the Embiid prefers Joel Embiid to Jokic?

I couldnt believe it!


:yaohappy:

[ImKobe]

Yea but the quality of opponent that the Warriors had through through both of those runs are some of the weakest I can remember. Not that that matters in the long run though. Still respect. But it matters when trying to compare things across years.

They were fortunate with injuries quite a bit through both of those. If you're going to mention injuries in years they lost it's only fair to mention the other side. I'm okay ignoring it altogether as these things tend to come out in the wash. But be consistent.

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.

[warriorfan]

Ok so for the record:

Warrior fan and NorCali Blunt would take Curry. Mostly everyone else taking Jokic.

Im sure warrior fan, and nor cali are objective about curry and golden state tho. It’s not an agenda thing, theyre right and everyone else is wrong! :lol


Hey did you guys know Real Men Wear Green rates Tatum the highest of any poster here?

It’s a shocking coincidence!

I can acknowledge when i have some bias, your problem is you cannot.

The fact of the matter is you have zero type of credible arguments to back up your weird steph curry hate besides “he doesn’t hero ball enough i’ve seen him at times make a turn over” or “he dances too much and sometimes throws his mouthpiece.” You literally turn into bladefd when it comes to Steph Curry, it’s weird.


If you brought actual arguments I would understand.

But you don’t.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!

Good points, however I’d be quicker to share a lot of these reservations were it not for the Nuggets performing at that aforementioned all-time level with him on the court, over a fairly large sample.

Sure, +12.0 and +11.0 aren’t quite as gaudy as Steph’s offerings from ‘15-‘19 (in the +14 to +16 range), but Steph had at least a moderate supporting cast edge throughout the entirety of that run (large one after ‘16). Hell, even the +8.4 with his depleted Nuggets roster in ‘22 is an impressive datapoint. In the years where there was a little more starting lineup parity (‘15 and ‘16; I still give the Dubs supporting starters the edge, but the gap isn’t ridiculous) Curry’s were a fair bit healthier — 44 missed games compared to 96 for Jokic’s starters.

I suspect a large part of this really is down to the Nuggets porous bench. Do they even have more than five average-or-better basketball players? Braun is borderline, and often looks lost out there despite his big game reputation. The Warriors typically had somewhere from 8 to 10.

(I’ll grant you that my objectivity is compromised by watching their leaky bench cough up leads all year.)

There are a lot of finer points re: roster construction/scalability that I’d start grappling with more if the Nuggets actually put a comparably stacked team around Jok (and still didn’t see the returns you’re skeptical that they would).

Finally, I’d posit that it’s probably a little more challenging for Jokic to create separation over today’s league than it was for Curry in a league where the three-point shot was only just starting to become ubiquitous. Unfair to penalize him for taking advantage of this (relative) blind spot, but when we’re quibbling over stuff like this I do think it makes a difference. The three is such a big equalizer and is just inherently friendlier to parity (or so it seems).

[j3lademaster]

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.
If Jokic goes through LA, Minnie, okc then Boston then can we call this a gauntlet?

[SouBeachTalents]

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.
I'd honestly disagree with that, the Suns & Lakers are pretty clearly > the Grizz & Mavs, esp with Ja missing half the series. They did have a tougher Finals matchup, though Tatum & Butler were both pretty ass in those series.

[ImKobe]

If Jokic goes through LA, Minnie, okc then Boston then can we call this a gauntlet?

Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.

[tontoz]

Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.


No it would be much tougher. GS had a first round bye facing Denver without Murray and MPJ. Next round Ja got hurt. Then they faced a weaker version of Dallas.

[ShawkFactory]

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.

The Celtics were good but not ready. The Warriors got lucky in the West.

Both the Suns and Lakers last year I think were tougher playoff opponents than anyone the Warriors faced.

[NBAGOAT]

The Celtics were good but not ready. The Warriors got lucky in the West.

Both the Suns and Lakers last year I think were tougher playoff opponents than anyone the Warriors faced.

celtics were better than both. Beat mil and a good miami team

[FultzNationRISE]

What issues did Steph have, other than when he played on one leg in 2016?


It's too early for this right now. Jokic is still at his peak and has more to do before I'd put him over peak Steph. Steph had more help I agree but that also led to the most dominant RS ever in 2016, followed by the most dominant Playoff run ever in 2017.


Even when KD got injured he took them to the Finals and had one of the greatest individual series in NBA history against Portland in 2019, and took prime Kawhi to 6 games with half the GS rotation injured. I'd argue that Curry's 2022 title run was more impressive than anything Jokic has done so far in the POs, and that was a past-prime Steph with a team that was arguably worse than any of the healthy Denver ones.


im conflicted. Jokic is more consistent in playoffs for sure. I dont think many have peaked like curry on offense in 16 and his help in this discussion gets overrated. His teams certainly had talent but that was defensive talent with dray,iggy, bogut, klay etc. On offense they had 1.5 creators in curry and draymond who can pass but not a scorer. Klay was a great shotmaker but didnt create for others. The nuggets have like 2.5 with jokic/murray and gordon(the draymond role) to a certain extent and 2 excellent floor spacers in porter and kcp. dont look at nuggets not having any all stars, they have more offensive talent than the 15-16 gs teams even relative to era and their defense is above average. most title teams have at least 2 shot creators. the 2022 team sure had 2.5 adding poole but recent history suggests poole might not have been that good. That team was deep but had 1 superstar and 1 all star in dray(wiggins,poole, klay werent all star lvl).

Warriors had some relatively easy runs in 15 and 22 but the nuggets run was also relatively easy last year. 22 warriors faced the celtics in finals at least. Nuggets certainly will have an extremely tough run this year but havent won the title yet.


The prob with these kinda arguments, and it feels like theyre the majority, is youre talkin about everything BUT the players themselves. Youre comparing their teammates, comparing their opponents. Might as well compare their wives and cars.

How about saying what it is about the players themselves that makes you favor one or the other. Instead of trying to play JENGA with adding or subtracting justifications for their team success. Team success is a TEAM achievement. If you are comparing individuals, make points about how one player affects the game relative to the other.

Who has more help has nothing to do with who’s the better player. It’s irrelevant. Make a meaningful point about the players themselves. Otherwise youre copping out.

[j3lademaster]

Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.Murray and mpj injured 1st round, no Ja Memphis 2nd, even younger Luka without Kyrie and worse front court, and a worse version of Boston? Lol

[NBAGOAT]

The prob with these kinda arguments, and it feels like theyre the majority, is youre talkin about everything BUT the players themselves. Youre comparing their teammates, comparing their opponents. Might as well compare their wives and cars.

How about saying what it is about the players themselves that makes you favor one or the other. Instead of trying to play JENGA with adding or subtracting justifications for their team success. Team success is a TEAM achievement. If you are comparing individuals, make points about how one player affects the game relative to the other.

Who has more help has nothing to do with who’s the better player. It’s irrelevant. Make a meaningful point about the players themselves. Otherwise youre copping out.

well jokic is a beast scoring in the paint and goat lvl playmaking. Never seen that combination in history. No one in history has shot like curry. Just opens up easy layups for his teammates but doesnt show up in box score. Jokic is decent as shooter too and curry can get to the rim pretty well. When you have 2 guys who are historically good but play very differently it's hard to compare so you start looking at team results accounting for teammate quality. Defense jokic is likely slightly better but doesnt matter too much. I dont think many people in history have peaked on offense like 16 rs curry but playoffs were a fall off. Tbf, Jokic also hasnt gone 100% in the regular season for a few years last time was likely 2022 when he had to with injuries to murray/porter. EPM does agree with me jokic is a 7.5 on offense last 4 years. curry's 2nd and 3rd best years are around 7.5 but he's a 9.2 in 16.

[1987_Lakers]

Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.

:roll:

[FultzNationRISE]

well jokic is a beast scoring in the paint and goat lvl playmaking. Never seen that combination in history. No one in history has shot like curry. Just opens up easy layups for his teammates but doesnt show up in box score. Jokic is decent as shooter too and curry can get to the rim pretty well. When you have 2 guys who are historically good but play very differently it's hard to compare so you start looking at team results accounting for teammate quality. Defense jokic is likely slightly better but doesnt matter too much. I dont think many people in history have peaked on offense like 16 rs curry but playoffs were a fall off. Tbf, Jokic also hasnt gone 100% in the regular season for a few years last time was likely 2022 when he had to with injuries to murray/porter. EPM does agree with me jokic is a 7.5 on offense last 4 years. curry's 2nd and 3rd best years are around 7.5 but he's a 9.2 in 16.

I like that better :applause:

[Axe]

Murray and mpj injured 1st round, no Ja Memphis 2nd, even younger Luka without Kyrie and worse front court, and a worse version of Boston? Lol
This. I forgot both mpj and murray were absent in the first round two years ago.

[Jasper]

joker is the real deal.

[Mask the Embiid]

I guess the peak is over?





























https://i.postimg.cc/pXdMFTCv/IMG-2283.gif

[tontoz]

I guess the peak is over?

















When was Embiids peak? Was it losing to the Hawks, or the Raps?

[SouBeachTalents]

When was Embiids peak? Was it losing to the Hawks, or the Raps?
Personally, I have the 15 point on 5/18 Game 7 against Boston last year. That's when I knew he had officially ended the Jokic "debate".

[SATAN]

When was Embiids peak? Was it losing to the Hawks, or the Raps?

:oldlol:

[red1]

dominant center with all-time skills > dominant pg with all-time skills

[j3lademaster]

Personally, I have the 15 point on 5/18 Game 7 against Boston last year. That's when I knew he had officially ended the Jokic "debate".
It was when he grabbed Mitchell Robinson’s leg after he missed b2b flop calls. Most players wouldn’t have flopped the second time after the 3 point flop didn’t work out at the other end, but they don’t possess the mental fortitude of an Embiid. No one does. Embiid heroically drops to the floor again, dude just keeps on coming. And to have the wherewithal to grab Robinson’s leg… the competitiveness, the fire. It’s when I knew Embiid not only crushed the Wilt debate, but the MJ and Lebron debate as well. GOAT.

[Stephonit]

No it would be much tougher. GS had a first round bye facing Denver without Murray and MPJ. Next round Ja got hurt. Then they faced a weaker version of Dallas.

Looks like the comparison ended sooner than anticipated and will have to wait again for next year. Jokic did not end up facing Dallas or Boston. Curry still more impressive.

Most of you guys still fail to comprehend just how absurdly high Curry's peak was.

[RRR3]

Steph makes more impact on offense, I can't see a peak Steph led team that was a high seed getting completely bottled like this on offense in back to back games in 2024...I guess you could argue Jokic edges ahead because of defense but he's not really a great defender so I wouldn't.

[Gohan]

Lmao at jokic even being mentioned with curry. It's like these mofos watching games with jokic family pointing guns to their head.

[1987_Lakers]

Looks like the comparison ended sooner than anticipated and will have to wait again for next year. Jokic did not end up facing Dallas or Boston. Curry still more impressive.

Most of you guys still fail to comprehend just how absurdly high Curry's peak was.

Both have absurd peaks. Both might be the best offensive players ever for their position, which is the reason why I made this thread.

[hold this L]

Steph makes more impact on offense, I can't see a peak Steph led team that was a high seed getting completely bottled like this on offense in back to back games in 2024...I guess you could argue Jokic edges ahead because of defense but he's not really a great defender so I wouldn't.
Denver has regularly had a better defense with their center on the bench for most of his PS career. Pretty awful considering he's a center. Jokic's playmaking and offense is disgusting though, I don't know how many decades it will take to see another center do both at that level. :applause:

[RRR3]

Denver has regularly had a better defense with their center on the bench for most of his PS career. Pretty awful considering he's a center. Jokic's playmaking and offense is disgusting though, I don't know how many decades it will take to see another center do both at that level. :applause:
He's not a good defender, but he's not Kanter either so he still likely has more impact on that end than a point guard who's not stellar. I'd take Curry overall though because I don't think the defensive edge for Jokic is enough to make up the offensive gap. As good as Jokic is on offense, I've never seen anyone warp a game on offense like Curry. Curry would be the GOAT if guys like LeBron, Kareem and MJ weren't so impactful on defense.

[bdonovan]

Anyone watching the Wolves- Nuggets series realizes that Jokic ran out of gas. I've said this before, there are great players in the league that do not put in the work in the gym and it costs them- Kevin Durant, Nowitzki. Curry fit this bill for many years but he bulked up and took his condition to the top. You need to set the standard for the team. If you look at players like LeBron, Jordan, and now Curry- they do the work off the court. It matters in terms of all time greatness. You can't serve your team when you are lumbering around in Q4 hardly playing D.

[FultzNationRISE]

Anyone watching the Wolves- Nuggets series realizes that Jokic ran out of gas. I've said this before, there are great players in the league that do not put in the work in the gym and it costs them- Kevin Durant, Nowitzki. Curry fit this bill for many years but he bulked up and took his condition to the top. You need to set the standard for the team. If you look at players like LeBron, Jordan, and now Curry- they do the work off the court. It matters in terms of all time greatness. You can't serve your team when you are lumbering around in Q4 hardly playing D.


^ This guy doesnt understand body types.


“Those Kenyans keep winning marathons because theyre the only ones who work out! It’s that simple!”

:facepalm

[hold this L]

He's not a good defender, but he's not Kanter either so he still likely has more impact on that end than a point guard who's not stellar. I'd take Curry overall though because I don't think the defensive edge for Jokic is enough to make up the offensive gap. As good as Jokic is on offense, I've never seen anyone warp a game on offense like Curry. Curry would be the GOAT if guys like LeBron, Kareem and MJ weren't so impactful on defense.
It's much worse for a team to have a player be worse defensively at the 5 than the 1. Jokic is not on Curry's level offensively. He's insanely efficient, but I haven't seen teams dare a guy to shoot in a game 7 from distance like him from any ATG offensive hubs. Maybe Lebron early in his career, but now the asshole turned into a shooter.

[Mask the Embiid]

Joker, easy. I love Steph Curry, but he has a lot of issues in the playoffs. Joker otoh, rises to the occasion when you need him most. The only players who have been able to consistently do that in the playoffs have been Jordan, Lebron, Kawhi and Big Honey; very short list.

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

[RRR3]

It's much worse for a team to have a player be worse defensively at the 5 than the 1. Jokic is not on Curry's level offensively. He's insanely efficient, but I haven't seen teams dare a guy to shoot in a game 7 from distance like him from any ATG offensive hubs. Maybe Lebron early in his career, but now the asshole turned into a shooter.
Yes it's easier to get away with mediocre defenders at the 1 spot no doubt. Because centers are the most important member of your defense. As a LeBron fan his shooting is pretty random year to year. He could easily go back to being a brick next year and then shoot 40% from 3 the year after that.

[Axe]

I'd honestly disagree with that, the Suns & Lakers are pretty clearly > the Grizz & Mavs, esp with Ja missing half the series. They did have a tougher Finals matchup, though Tatum & Butler were both pretty ass in those series.
It's an interesting comparison. Just took a look at the denver title run last year and realized that they faced sub-50 win teams throughout the playoffs, if that could imply anything. But two years ago saw GS facing more shorthanded teams (mpj & murray for denver, morant for memphis and tatum with undisclosed wrist injury for boston) en route to their fourth title under the dynasty.

[Hey Yo]

Curry is a top 10 player all time ~ 4 rings all with superstar production, GOAT season, only UMVP in history, etc.
:oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

It's much worse for a team to have a player be worse defensively at the 5 than the 1. Jokic is not on Curry's level offensively. He's insanely efficient, but I haven't seen teams dare a guy to shoot in a game 7 from distance like him from any ATG offensive hubs. Maybe Lebron early in his career, but now the asshole turned into a shooter.
Huh? What does Curry do offensively (besides run a round off of screens) that makes him so much better?

Jokic is very confident shooting anywhere from 27ft or closer and has a MUCH better midrange game than Curry. Plus Curry doesn't come close to Joker's offensive rebounding capabilities.

[warriorfan]

Huh? What does Curry do offensively (besides run a round off of screens) that makes him so much better?

Jokic is very confident shooting anywhere from 27ft or closer and has a MUCH better midrange game than Curry. Plus Curry doesn't come close to Joker's offensive rebounding capabilities.

Spaces the floor better than anyone to ever play the game

Let me know when Jokic is drawing double teams 30+ feet away from the hoop

[hold this L]

Huh? What does Curry do offensively (besides run a round off of screens) that makes him so much better?

Jokic is very confident shooting anywhere from 27ft or closer and has a MUCH better midrange game than Curry. Plus Curry doesn't come close to Joker's offensive rebounding capabilities.
Jokic was treated like Draymond Green at the 3 point line at a home in a game 7, and he completely failed. Anyone that gets disrepected offensively like that is not in any conversation for GOAT offensive player. Steph being a danger from so far out breaks the defensive line entirely (teams have to move up, adding more space to the other four teammates), add being the best off ball player of all time and it breaks the defensive line. You're devaluing the off ball here. Draymond without that is a a 15MPG defensive energy guy, add that level of elite off ball play and you have one of the more impactful players during several PS series or a few regular seasons. Draymond would be a complete failure offensively if he lined up with Joker.

[Nb1]

Only 70% for Jokic??? Who are the few retarded ones picking Steph :roll:

Ask 1000 coach's out there and 1000 would pick Jokic, not only is he better in every single area than Steph other than 3pt shot, but he's also so much bigger and impossible to guard, Steph gets clamped by Matthew Dellavedova :oldlol: this shouldn't even be up for debate lol.

[j3lademaster]

Jokic was treated like Draymond Green at the 3 point line at a home in a game 7, and he completely failed. Anyone that gets disrepected offensively like that is not in any conversation for GOAT offensive player. Steph being a danger from so far out breaks the defensive line entirely (teams have to move up, adding more space to the other four teammates), add being the best off ball player of all time and it breaks the defensive line. You're devaluing the off ball here. Draymond without that is a a 15MPG defensive energy guy, add that level of elite off ball play and you have one of the more impactful players during several PS series or a few regular seasons. Draymond would be a complete failure offensively if he lined up with Joker.
You probably want to stay away from big game performance talk if you're trying to debate pro Curry or pro Kobe. Curry in particular is incredibly unclutch. Like, historically bad in the clutch.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvsseYwXoAEJ54p.jpg:large

And this is coming from someone who has Curry as my favorite current player. I've argued time and time again Draymond would be akin to what you said- a 15 min energy guy off the bench- without him. He doesn't rebound well enough to be your center(KD era is a bad example because that's not a typical team). I've even argued I would consider taking Curry first if we're discussing all time teams because he's that rare all time superstar who doesn't need plays ran for him and has zero ego as far as letting his teammates cook, evident in how he took a backseat to KD and willingly came off the bench for meme player Jordan Poole because Poole was on a hot streak and Steph unselfishly wanted to help foster the kid's confidence. Trust me, I understand Curry's intangibles even BEYOND his offball play, which is second to none. But if we're building a team with salary caps and all, Jokic is easier to build around because he's almost impossible to force a bad game out of. Historically impossible, almost on Lebron's levels. Curry, KD, Kobe, all those guys are all time greats but all of them have let great defenses force them into uncomfortable shots and had poor series' off of them. Shaq, Jokic and Lebron- while they have had stinkers and have been bothered by defenses, is MUCH less susceptible to having a bad series than virtually any other peak in history. Look at the great Bird's playoff failures (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6xrfky/larry_birds_long_list_of_playoff_failures/), and he's seen as some consistent clutch god. Everyone has playoff failures, Jokic's 'Tragic Johnson' moment is when he 'failed' with 29/11/8 on 61% ts for the series while averaging UNDER 3 SECONDS PER TOUCH(did his damage within optimal ball movement and flow of the game) when he 'only' did 34/19/7 on 46%(ok, that's terrible for a center) facing elimination. Against a team that's built to stop him by the previous Denver gm. If this is his floor, he's undoubtedly all time great.

And no, they didn't leave him like Draymond. Jokic is so good at creating you live with giving him space for the 3, Draymond's spacing is completely created for him by Steph- not respect for any other aspect of Green's game.

[Hey Yo]

Spaces the floor better than anyone to ever play the game

Let me know when Jokic is drawing double teams 30+ feet away from the hoop
Lemme know when Steph can convert middy's over double coverage.

[Hey Yo]

Jokic was treated like Draymond Green at the 3 point line at a home in a game 7, and he completely failed. Anyone that gets disrepected offensively like that is not in any conversation for GOAT offensive player. Steph being a danger from so far out breaks the defensive line entirely (teams have to move up, adding more space to the other four teammates), add being the best off ball player of all time and it breaks the defensive line. You're devaluing the off ball here. Draymond without that is a a 15MPG defensive energy guy, add that level of elite off ball play and you have one of the more impactful players during several PS series or a few regular seasons. Draymond would be a complete failure offensively if he lined up with Joker.

Your comparison is based on 1 game. Joker's 3pt shot is respected by defenses around the league. With Denver having better options to take the 3, of course defenses would rather let him take the 3.

Steph being the much bigger threat from 3 is exactly more Joker is a threat inside the line and on the offensive glass. This while not even bringing up his passing advantage.

When Steph's 3 isn't falling, it's hard for him to impact the offense. The same can't be said about Jokic.

[warriorfan]

Lemme know when Steph can convert middy's over double coverage.

doesn’t create more offense then steph curry’s spacing

[Hey Yo]

doesn’t create more offense then steph curry’s spacing

Converting offense without needing necessary spacing >>>>>

[warriorfan]

Converting offense without needing necessary spacing >>>>>

you are f ucking retarded

[PeroAntic]

Its Curry. He revolutionized the game ffs. As hard as peak Jokic is to defend, peak Curry had the entire opposition gameplan about stopping him.

[RRR3]

:oldlol:
Besides GOAT season (and he may just mean most wins in a regular season) he's right and I rarely agree with him.

[Stephonit]

Your comparison is based on 1 game. Joker's 3pt shot is respected by defenses around the league. With Denver having better options to take the 3, of course defenses would rather let him take the 3.

Steph being the much bigger threat from 3 is exactly more Joker is a threat inside the line and on the offensive glass. This while not even bringing up his passing advantage.

When Steph's 3 isn't falling, it's hard for him to impact the offense. The same can't be said about Jokic.

One game? Denver was held to less than 100 in the 4 games they lost in this series.

Even when Curry's three isn't falling he remains too much of a threat and still creates holes for his teammates to exploit. When did the Warriors only score 70 in the playoffs with Curry on the floor?

[hold this L]

Your comparison is based on 1 game. Joker's 3pt shot is respected by defenses around the league. With Denver having better options to take the 3, of course defenses would rather let him take the 3.

Steph being the much bigger threat from 3 is exactly more Joker is a threat inside the line and on the offensive glass. This while not even bringing up his passing advantage.

When Steph's 3 isn't falling, it's hard for him to impact the offense. The same can't be said about Jokic.
ESPN-level take that's objectively wrong. He's had plenty of games when his 3 hasn't fallen and made massive impact. His off ball movement, setting screens and threat from far opens the court like nobody else in NBA history. And no, Jokic inside is not the same as Steph from the outside. Jokic inside pulling players is something many elite players have been able to do. Doing is from Steph's gravity means your entire team is pushed much further towards the middle of the court, giving significantly more space to everybody. The pace & space era itself in general with guys being better shooters than before shows this on a smaller scale, where the court warps in terms of giving space to all 5 guys compared to before. Steph is just the extreme variant of that.

His shot is respected yet he was treated like Draymond Green at the 3P line.. in a game 7.. at home. I don't ever want that respect. :lol

[hold this L]

You probably want to stay away from big game performance talk if you're trying to debate pro Curry or pro Kobe. Curry in particular is incredibly unclutch. Like, historically bad in the clutch.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvsseYwXoAEJ54p.jpg:large

And this is coming from someone who has Curry as my favorite current player. I've argued time and time again Draymond would be akin to what you said- a 15 min energy guy off the bench- without him. He doesn't rebound well enough to be your center(KD era is a bad example because that's not a typical team). I've even argued I would consider taking Curry first if we're discussing all time teams because he's that rare all time superstar who doesn't need plays ran for him and has zero ego as far as letting his teammates cook, evident in how he took a backseat to KD and willingly came off the bench for meme player Jordan Poole because Poole was on a hot streak and Steph unselfishly wanted to help foster the kid's confidence. Trust me, I understand Curry's intangibles even BEYOND his offball play, which is second to none. But if we're building a team with salary caps and all, Jokic is easier to build around because he's almost impossible to force a bad game out of. Historically impossible, almost on Lebron's levels. Curry, KD, Kobe, all those guys are all time greats but all of them have let great defenses force them into uncomfortable shots and had poor series' off of them. Shaq, Jokic and Lebron- while they have had stinkers and have been bothered by defenses, is MUCH less susceptible to having a bad series than virtually any other peak in history. Look at the great Bird's playoff failures (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6xrfky/larry_birds_long_list_of_playoff_failures/), and he's seen as some consistent clutch god. Everyone has playoff failures, Jokic's 'Tragic Johnson' moment is when he 'failed' with 29/11/8 on 61% ts for the series while averaging UNDER 3 SECONDS PER TOUCH(did his damage within optimal ball movement and flow of the game) when he 'only' did 34/19/7 on 46%(ok, that's terrible for a center) facing elimination. Against a team that's built to stop him by the previous Denver gm. If this is his floor, he's undoubtedly all time great.

And no, they didn't leave him like Draymond. Jokic is so good at creating you live with giving him space for the 3, Draymond's spacing is completely created for him by Steph- not respect for any other aspect of Green's game.
Couple of things here. Last shot of the game =/= how clutch everything is. If it's regarding that, then we can put Dame as the most clutch player in the league, the same guy that had nearly 3 20point leads in a series he got swept by Steph in a few years back. Clutch is give them the ball in the last 5 minutes of the game and let them do their thing.

Jokic didn't have a bad series or tragic Johnson moment vs Minny, he just lost and it happens. It's embarrassing to be treated like a bum from the 3P line especially when you're historically solid there, but noone is going to care a week from now. Jokic's book right now is still open, he's in his prime and we all imagine he'll be there for a few more years. It's up to him to see what he fills in there.

His worst series isn't this one, it's the Suns 2021 where he was getting humiliated defensively on a regular basis. That's his achilles heel, he's poor defensively unless you put the right level of talent around him to make up for it (AG and KCP for POA defense). I agree that Jokic is far less likely to have a bad offensive game, that much is clear. But defensively, some of the worst defending I've seen from a big was in that 2021 series. The difference is (because I've made the same argument for Steph before), he's so good offensively that it doesn't even matter what happens defensively. But Malone and the previous GM put a quality team that mashes well beforehand.

The issue is the new arrogant retard in charge. You can't lose two elite role players and replace them with potential for a guy in his prime. I've always gotten annoyed by LeGM who always is a diva and puts pressure on the board and the CEO to be proactive every single summer, but I've started to sway that opinion over time after watching the morons at GS just hoping Steph magically does their job for them.. as well as the new GM whose doing the same for Joker with the Nuggets.

[NBAGOAT]

Couple of things here. Last shot of the game =/= how clutch everything is. If it's regarding that, then we can put Dame as the most clutch player in the league, the same guy that had nearly 3 20point leads in a series he got swept by Steph in a few years back. Clutch is give them the ball in the last 5 minutes of the game and let them do their thing.

Jokic didn't have a bad series or tragic Johnson moment vs Minny, he just lost and it happens. It's embarrassing to be treated like a bum from the 3P line especially when you're historically solid there, but noone is going to care a week from now. Jokic's book right now is still open, he's in his prime and we all imagine he'll be there for a few more years. It's up to him to see what he fills in there.

His worst series isn't this one, it's the Suns 2021 where he was getting humiliated defensively on a regular basis. That's his achilles heel, he's poor defensively unless you put the right level of talent around him to make up for it (AG and KCP for POA defense). I agree that Jokic is far less likely to have a bad offensive game, that much is clear. But defensively, some of the worst defending I've seen from a big was in that 2021 series. The difference is (because I've made the same argument for Steph before), he's so good offensively that it doesn't even matter what happens defensively. But Malone and the previous GM put a quality team that mashes well beforehand.

The issue is the new arrogant retard in charge. You can't lose two elite role players and replace them with potential for a guy in his prime. I've always gotten annoyed by LeGM who always is a diva and puts pressure on the board and the CEO to be proactive every single summer, but I've started to sway that opinion over time after watching the morons at GS just hoping Steph magically does their job for them.. as well as the new GM whose doing the same for Joker with the Nuggets.

You’re right about LeGm though he’s been part of mistakes too. Obviously wanted a co ball handler and westbrook was a disaster. On other hand wanted hield/Turner or Kyrie and pelinka going for dlo was obviously a mistake. Kind of a problem for a lot of gms in general they put too much stock into young guys developing and the future. I get it they’re way cheaper and the future matters and your star could leave but late round draft picks are such a crapshoot. They’re sacrificing their title opportunity for the future you can’t do that when you have a superstar in his prime.

Look at stevens no one on his teams is safe if an upgrade is available. Ok once in awhile you’ll lose a prospect like nesmith but nesmith became jrue holiday that was worth. He keeps picks but only to trade them later

Edit: also though KD was going be better than legm at being a gm when bkn had their big 3 but we saw what happened there lol