3ball, why is it that Kyrie succeeds with ball dominant players like LeBron/Luka?

[1987_Lakers]

While "better brand of ball" Tatum and KD failed with this man?

[warriorfan]

Kyrie is a very unique player

[RRR3]

Kyrie is a very unique player
Score first ISO heavy point guards are unique?

Crackfan with another classic.

[nayte]

Nah Kyrie is unique.your right in what you say but still.

[j3lademaster]

Nah Kyrie is unique.your right in what you say but still.he’s unique in how good he is, but his style definitely isn’t anything new especially in the current era.

[tpols]

Kyrie was hurt in Boston and Brooklyn. Basically missing whole seasons and giannis hurt him in the 2021 playoffs. For Dallas he's been good and available.

[tpols]

Score first ISO heavy point guards are unique?

Crackfan with another classic.

Don't be mad curly. Kyries passing and play making out the blitz trap doubles has been amazing. It's been an alley oop lob fest.

[1987_Lakers]

Kyrie was hurt in Boston and Brooklyn.

Healthy KD & Kyrie were swept in the first round. :oldlol:

[tpols]

And they basically swept Boston the previous year in the 1st round. You win some you lose some. Kyrie was actually epic to start that series but KD blew it.


https://youtu.be/vzyJUS2z3k8?si=FoePdlP2WIlYwj1O

He torched them but that loss was devastating.

If Giannis didn't injure him in 2021 Kyrie and Durant are probably champions. They were up, the Hawks with hurt Trae Young were a joke, and the choking suns are the choking suns.

[SouBeachTalents]

And they basically swept Boston the previous year in the 1st round. You win some you lose some. Kyrie was actually epic to start that series but KD blew it.


https://youtu.be/vzyJUS2z3k8?si=FoePdlP2WIlYwj1O

He torched them but that loss was devastating.

If Giannis didn't injure him in 2021 Kyrie and Durant are probably champions. They were up, the Hawks with hurt Trae Young were a joke, and the choking suns are the choking suns.
That's quite a nice luxury for Kyrie he only gets to show up for one game in a series and still get credit for it. How he did the rest of the series, who cares, they lost a close Game 1 so it doesn't matter :lol

[tpols]

That's quite a nice luxury for Kyrie he only gets to show up for one game in a series and still get credit for it. How he did the rest of the series, who cares, they lost a close Game 1 so it doesn't matter :lol

You would've had to watch the game. It was a back breaking loss. And Durant totally shit the bed. Nothing can really be done about that. Taking Game 1 on the road gives that series a whole different trajectory. Obviously it wouldn't have been a sweep.

[SouBeachTalents]

You would've had to watch the game. It was a back breaking loss. And Durant totally shit the bed. Nothing can really be done about that. Taking Game 1 on the road gives that series a whole different trajectory. Obviously it wouldn't have been a sweep.
I did watch the game, and sorry, for a guy who's been All-NBA before, saying they lost a painful Game 1 doesn't excuse playing like shit the rest of the series. That's legitimately the weakest excuse I've ever heard :lol They lost the next 3 games by 17 points combined, so those games could have been converted to wins if he or KD don't play like complete ass.

[tpols]

Oh and another thing.

The Nets role players were trash compared to Dallas. If PJ and Lively and DJJ don't step up OKC could've easily won. Like... EASILY won. But they did. :confusedshrug:

Meanwhile the Nets were relying on the corpse of Blake griffin and Co. I mean... it's just night an day. Dallas took off when they acquired PJ and Gafford.

Role players matter yall. If they don't hit it doesn't matter who your stars are.

[BarberSchool]

Score first ISO heavy point guards are unique?

Crackfan with another classic.nicca shut the fu@k up with this bullsh!t… Kyrie has literally the best handles in league history, and the deepest iso bag in league history, but he’s “not unique” ? Ole dig yourself a deeper hole to rot in lookin azz. Dumb af.

[90sgoat]

Score first ISO heavy point guards are unique?

Crackfan with another classic.

What sets Kyrie apart is that he is intelligent and has his ego in check.

Most small iso guards are ego-maniacs with less than top intelligence, think Reggie Jackson, Dame, Iverson, Tyler Herro, Jimmer etc.

Kyrie is unique in that he is extremely skilled, but he for some reason, is not an ego maniac. What people see as crazy, you could see as spiritual or compassionate. Reminds me of Kareem in that personality type.

You can compare it to being a musician. You can be someone who needs all the shine and be the vocals or you can be a lead guitarist and enjoy the feeling when everyone is hitting their notes and magic happens. Kyrie is the lead guitarist, not the vocals. Content to play a supporting role for most of the gig, but you know he needs to get his solo as well.

[3ba11]

While "better brand of ball" Tatum and KD failed with this man?


KD succeeded - they were up 2-0 and about to sweep the skill-less Giannis but then Kyrie got hurt.

And Tatum was a rookie, but Kyrie still led the Celtics to the best record in 2018 before he got hurt - he was literally MVP for the first half of the season... Then Hayward returned in 2019, which stunted Tatum, Brown and the team.

But the real reason that Luka and Kyrie beat SGA is because SGA is a massive ball-dominator which is easy to beat.... Here's Draymond on Inside the NBA talking about how SGA dominates the ball and it doesn't work in the playoffs, while links to Ric Bucher and Robert Horry say the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=kEx6NQjxx3g&t=4m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byQH6Sb4m_M&t=43s
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6TA8_4npHHQ


That's why it's so easy to beat SGA's ball-domination... Watch the Nuggets to the same thing to Luka-ball in the WCF

[SouBeachTalents]

KD succeeded
:oldlol: You're a fakkit.

[3ba11]

:oldlol: You're a fakkit.


At this point, isn't it clear that Kyrie is the difference-maker that puts teams over the top?

He's in the WCF with Luka, while putting the Cavs over the top in 16' after they lost in 15'... And obviously, he was the difference-maker in the Nets-Bucks series in 21' - his absence was felt.

Regarding SGA, here's Draymond on Inside the NBA talking about how SGA dominates the ball and it doesn't work in the playoffs, while links to Ric Bucher and Robert Horry say the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=de...Qjxx3g&t=4m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byQH6Sb4m_M&t=43s
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6TA8_4npHHQ


That's why it's so easy to beat SGA's ball-domination... Watch the Nuggets to the same thing to Luka-ball in the WCF

[SouBeachTalents]

At this point, isn't it clear that Kyrie is the difference-maker that puts teams over the top?

He's in the WCF with Luka, while putting the Cavs over the top in 16' after they lost in 15'... And obviously, he was the difference-maker in the Nets-Bucks series in 21' - his absence was felt.

Regarding SGA, here's Draymond on Inside the NBA talking about how SGA dominates the ball and it doesn't work in the playoffs, while links to Ric Bucher and Robert Horry say the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=de...Qjxx3g&t=4m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byQH6Sb4m_M&t=43s
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6TA8_4npHHQ


That's why it's so easy to beat SGA's ball-domination... Watch the Nuggets to the same thing to Luka-ball in the WCF
Sounds more like Pippen, before he got there the Bulls were getting blasted in the first round and couldn't even achieve a winning record. Then Pippen gets there, the Bulls start advancing further, then once he becomes elite, the Bulls start reeling off championships. Hell, Jordan retired and Pippen was still leading the Bulls to 55 wins. He's the real difference maker that puts teams over the top.

[tpols]

Sounds more like Pippen, before he got there the Bulls were getting blasted in the first round and couldn't even achieve a winning record. Then Pippen gets there, the Bulls start advancing further, then once he becomes elite, the Bulls start reeling off championships. Hell, Jordan retired and Pippen was still leading the Bulls to 55 wins. He's the real difference maker that puts teams over the top.

The difference is the media ranks pippen top 25 all time and you guys treat Kyrie like a pariah when he's shown a higher peak in multiple situations ~ 2016, FIBA MVP, current Dallas run etc.

[3ba11]

the Bulls start advancing further





Not because of Pippen - the Bulls advanced in 88' and 89' in spite of Pippen's horrible performance.. Look it up.

Again, people forget that the 2nd-year Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF and averaged 9.7 on bad efficiency overall.. Otoh, the 2nd year Horry was the 2nd best player on a title team in 94' with alpha clutch mentality - so MJ would've won the title in 89' with the reliable 2nd year Horry instead of 2nd year "migraine" Pippen.

A GM could easily improve the Bulls by upgrading Paxson to a more playmaking guy like Kenny Smith (13 and 6 APG for career... 18/7 peak with 17th for MVP) - Vernon Maxwell or Sam Cassell would be great upgrades as well - all of these guys are realistic upgrades to Paxson... Regardless of who they go with, once the Bulls have a slightly better playmaking point guard then Paxson, they can replace Pippen with Horry and 3-peat the same way as before, and they can start the 3-peat in 89' instead of waiting until 91'...

That's how easy it is to replace Pippen and the Bulls' cast... Just give MJ the same cast Hakeem had in 1994 (Smith, Horry) and he starts the 3-peat in 1989.... Carry on

[StrongLurk]

Sounds more like Pippen, before he got there the Bulls were getting blasted in the first round and couldn't even achieve a winning record. Then Pippen gets there, the Bulls start advancing further, then once he becomes elite, the Bulls start reeling off championships. Hell, Jordan retired and Pippen was still leading the Bulls to 55 wins. He's the real difference maker that puts teams over the top.

You destroyed him here :roll:

[j3lademaster]

What sets Kyrie apart is that he is intelligent and has his ego in check.

Most small iso guards are ego-maniacs with less than top intelligence, think Reggie Jackson, Dame, Iverson, Tyler Herro, Jimmer etc.

Kyrie is unique in that he is extremely skilled, but he for some reason, is not an ego maniac. What people see as crazy, you could see as spiritual or compassionate. Reminds me of Kareem in that personality type.

You can compare it to being a musician. You can be someone who needs all the shine and be the vocals or you can be a lead guitarist and enjoy the feeling when everyone is hitting their notes and magic happens. Kyrie is the lead guitarist, not the vocals. Content to play a supporting role for most of the gig, but you know he needs to get his solo as well.
Literally never seen Kyrie described as ‘intelligent’ before. Elite shooter, goat ballhandler, perhaps the goat littleman finisher but never intelligent.

[3ba11]

.
Let's compare difference-makers:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-19-2024/5qA5jf.gif

Pippen - 10 ppg
Jordan - 45 ppg



https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/d-aNve.gif


Kyrie - 28 ppg Finals career
Bron - 28 ppg Finals career

(34 vs 19 for MJ/Pippen)

[SouBeachTalents]

That's actually crazy his career Finals ppg, over 10 Finals, matches a 12 game sample size. You cannot say the same for virtually any other top 10 player, so 3ball once again illustrating just how great LeBron is :applause:

[3ba11]

That's actually crazy his career Finals ppg, over 10 Finals, matches a 12 game sample size. You cannot say the same for virtually any other top 10 player, so 3ball once again illustrating just how great LeBron is :applause:


yeah, what you just said is a nothingburger, but I'll just say that a "difference-maker" is someone that hits big shots and co-leads the scoring like Kyrie, while Pippen scoring 0 points or averaging 10 ppg is someone that is getting carried.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXsLLN-WoAASujh.jpg

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/96845209_3100109586763130_7033723775786942464_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=-q2tuiEk3XYQ7kNvgGwyE94&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AYDt4qY0MJ-Ybq6Uoxj-YLzT15RYG3cNYFqOcMRmYDWIUw&oe=6671DBE9

Difference. Maker

[3ba11]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXsLLN-WoAASujh.jpg

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/96845209_3100109586763130_7033723775786942464_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=-q2tuiEk3XYQ7kNvgGwyE94&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AYDt4qY0MJ-Ybq6Uoxj-YLzT15RYG3cNYFqOcMRmYDWIUw&oe=6671DBE9

Difference. Maker


^^^ worst peak stats of any all-timer and those are system stats - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the system

TRASH peak capability, which is why he wasn't on the scouting report according to Shaq - teams could live with his system and transition scoring.

Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or peak Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and undeserved media accolade.

Draymond, Blake Griffin, Marc Gasol, PG13 - tons of guys get high MVP due to surprise factor - obviously, MVP voting isn't a ranking players

Otoh, Jordan was the difference-maker that lifted a .500 team in 95' to 3-peat in 96' and thereafter.

[SouBeachTalents]

^^^ worst peak stats of any all-timer

TRASH peak capability, which is why he wasn't on the scouting report according to Shaq - teams could live with his system and transition scoring.

Draymond, Blake Griffin, Marc Gasol, PG13 - tons of guys get high MVP due to surprise factor - obviously, MVP voting isn't a ranking players

Otoh, Jordan was the difference-maker that lifted a .500 team in 95' to 3-peat in 96' and thereafter.
I seem to recall Jordan getting bounced in the 2nd round in '95 and choking down the stretch of many games. They then get Rodman and boost to an all-time record 72 wins. So seems like he might be the true difference maker.

[3ba11]

I seem to recall Jordan getting bounced in the 2nd round in '95 and choking down the stretch of many games. They then get Rodman and boost to an all-time record 72 wins. So seems like he might be the true difference maker.


Baseball Jordan?

that's your best argument?

then you lose.. the 3-peat after 95' shows that he was rusty in 95' - his advanced stats were Wizards' level in 95' but returned to best-in-the-league from 96-98'... What more proof do you need (considering you weren't there watching like I was).

And Rodman was old like 2009 Ben Wallace or 2010 Shaq - he averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs - this means that MJ won rings with Horace, Rodman and Kukoc as the starting PF's, so it was a role player position for Jordan, while Lebron needed stars at PF like Love, Bosh or AD

[SouBeachTalents]

Baseball Jordan?

that's your best argument?

then you lose.. the 3-peat after 95' shows that he was rusty in 95' - his advanced stats were Wizards' level in 95' but returned to best-in-the-league from 96-98'... What more proof do you need (considering you weren't there watching like I was).

And Rodman was old like 2009 Ben Wallace or 2010 Shaq - he averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs - this means that MJ won rings with Horace, Rodman and Kukoc as the starting PF's, so it was a role player position for Jordan, while Lebron needed stars at PF like Love, Bosh or AD
Role player?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdZn8epqnKo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98R_SCHiSUY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qUoOBBlA0

Let's not forget he also led the league in rebounds from '96-'98.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdZn8epqnKo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98R_SCHiSUY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qUoOBBlA0





Yes 1996 was the only run where Rodman wasn't a massive negative... The Bulls would've won much easier with tons of other PF's that still played good defense but didn't force them to play 4 on 5 offensively.

And in 1997, Jordan was forced to co-lead the rebounds for those playoffs because Rodman only averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs... So Jordan and Rodman both averaged 8 RPG for that run, while Jordan also led the assists and carried the goat scoring burden (while playing goat defense).







Role player?

Let's not forget he also led the league in rebounds from '96-'98.





So did Andre Drummond - it means nothing.... Jordan didn't need Kukoc to lead the league in 1998 when Kukoc was the starter in those playoffs, and he didn't need Horace to lead the league or even get double-figure rebounds during the 1st three-peat.

Again, the PF position was a role player position for Jordan because he won with role players like Horace, Kukoc and fossil Rodman as the starting PF's.

[sdot_thadon]

Not because of Pippen - the Bulls advanced in 88' and 89' in spite of Pippen's horrible performance.. Look it up.

Again, people forget that the 2nd-year Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF and averaged 9.7 on bad efficiency overall.. Otoh, the 2nd year Horry was the 2nd best player on a title team in 94' with alpha clutch mentality - so MJ would've won the title in 89' with the reliable 2nd year Horry instead of 2nd year "migraine" Pippen.

A GM could easily improve the Bulls by upgrading Paxson to a more playmaking guy like Kenny Smith (13 and 6 APG for career... 18/7 peak with 17th for MVP) - Vernon Maxwell or Sam Cassell would be great upgrades as well - all of these guys are realistic upgrades to Paxson... Regardless of who they go with, once the Bulls have a slightly better playmaking point guard then Paxson, they can replace Pippen with Horry and 3-peat the same way as before, and they can start the 3-peat in 89' instead of waiting until 91'...

That's how easy it is to replace Pippen and the Bulls' cast... Just give MJ the same cast Hakeem had in 1994 (Smith, Horry) and he starts the 3-peat in 1989.... Carry on

Not to get in the way of SouBeachTalents handing your ass to you but you haven't the slightest clue what the 94 Rockets were about lol. You're speaking on them like they weren't a championship caliber cast. So you're basically saying replace Jordan's supposedly non championship level cast with a champion level cast and he wins, well duh. Mj couldn't do shit until Pippen and Grant were ready and didn't do much without either of them. Meanwhile they went and played their roles on other teams and either made the finals or were within a play of making it.

And as someone who watched the Rockets closely in 94 I wouldn't under any circumstances take Horry over Pippen, you're out of your mind. Our love for Horry was based on the flashes of Pippen like potential we saw in him. Meaning he wasn't nearly at that level and never made it to the level. And I'm not sure where you got this moronic idea that Horry was our 2nd best player in 94, because he wasn't. He was a role player just like everyone else, that team had a by committee 2nd option approach. Any given night any of them could step up and have a good game almost all of them were tremendous in the clutch after several years of the Rockets coughing up big 4th quarter leads. I've always cringed at the narrative that Dream won without a good cast because it wasn't true. One last thing give Jordan Dreams cast and he doesn't win shit. Give him Horry instead of Pippen and the Bulls never chip even once, why? Because Olajuwon on the back line made the defense elite and the major reason we won 2 chips, replace him with Mj and they won't have the same stopping power. Replace Pippen with Horry? LOL

[Gohan]

nicca shut the fu@k up with this bullsh!t… Kyrie has literally the best handles in league history, and the deepest iso bag in league history, but he’s “not unique” ? Ole dig yourself a deeper hole to rot in lookin azz. Dumb af.

Don't do him dirty like that

[90sgoat]

Literally never seen Kyrie described as ‘intelligent’ before. Elite shooter, goat ballhandler, perhaps the goat littleman finisher but never intelligent.

He's a thinker, maybe too much, otherwise you wouldn't even get into stuff like flat earth.

[Axe]

Lmao 3bot getting worked up itt.

[1987_Lakers]

This proves Bron ball is more effective

[3ba11]

This proves Bron ball is more effective


success is having a winning record on the Finals level

Otoh, simply making the Finals = proving you're objectively superior help than Pippen, who couldn't make the Finals without Jordan.

[1987_Lakers]

success is having a winning record on the Finals level

also 3ball

"I really need Kyrie to MAKE the Finals to SOLIDIFY all my narratives"

[StrongLurk]

success is having a winning record on the Finals level

Otoh, simply making the Finals = proving you're objectively superior help than Pippen, who couldn't make the Finals without Jordan.

Totally different circumstances between Pippen and Kyrie. You are so desperate.