I can't recall another time where the #1 and #2 underperformed so poorly and won...

[Carbine]

Lukas regular season was 34ppg on 62 TS

In this series he was only at 24.7 ppg and 56.5 TS which is almost a 30 percent reduction in scoring and a pretty big decrease in efficiency.

Kyrie regular season was 25.5 ppg on 61 TS

In this series he was 15.7ppg on 53 TS which is almost a 40 percent reduction in scoring and pretty awful efficiency.


How did this happen if he game is all about your stars carrying you in the playoffs? They beat a higher seed to boot, and the other MVP candidate from the other team actually increased his output whole still retaining a 60 TS.

[warriorfan]

in case you forgot basketball is a team game

if you watched the games you could see by eye test they played well

playoffs / finals sometimes get grimy and players aren’t going to get the looks they usually do in the regular season

they weren’t playing for stats, they were playing to win

[tpols]

You didn't watch the games. OKC was hard trapping and doubling Luka and kyrie and leaving guys like PJ, Lively, and DJJ wide open. That's why the role players had such an amazing series.

And on the flipside for some reason Dallas wasn't doubling SGA letting him operate in single coverage in the middy and staying home on the shooters.

[Carbine]

Luka regular season gamescore 28

Luka this series 20.5

Kyrie regular season game score 20.1

This series 11.2

Props to "the others" for carrying

[ShawkFactory]

Yea I don’t think they played poorly at all. Kyrie played great all around ball.

[hold this L]

Lukas regular season was 34ppg on 62 TS

In this series he was only at 24.7 ppg and 56.5 TS which is almost a 30 percent reduction in scoring and a pretty big decrease in efficiency.

Kyrie regular season was 25.5 ppg on 61 TS

In this series he was 15.7ppg on 53 TS which is almost a 40 percent reduction in scoring and pretty awful efficiency.


How did this happen if he game is all about your stars carrying you in the playoffs? They beat a higher seed to boot, and the other MVP candidate from the other team actually increased his output whole still retaining a 60 TS.

Because the stars didn't carry? The others all had elite games at different times. It's a team game like warriorfan says, the goal is to ensure that someone goes off regardless of who shows up.

[Carbine]

Great all around game? He averaged 2 boards a game. Did he lock up SGA? He was not a primary defender on any scoring threat.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I forgot which game it was but I distinctly remember a crunch time defensive possession where Kidd took both of them or of the game. Doncic overall did his job when you consider that he's playing hurt but one thing I can't think of is another team where the coach would bench his two best players because he needed a stop. Stats may say that Dallas is a great defense since the trade or trades that got them some bigs but if you don't feel good about the defense of your top stars then you have a flaw that can be exploited.

[tpols]

The funny thing is if kyrie or Luka forced shots over the 25 foot double teams they would've lost. Because they barely won by a hair. But they made the right passes and plays off the trap blitz. And their teammates made the defense pay. It reminded me of how teams play curry and then he would hit dray or iggy wide open and they'd make a play.

People would have had to watch the games though to see this. Luka blew Game 4 but he just put up a ~ 30 point triple double. Kyrie would've had the series game winner on that tip if the refs swallowed their whistle for PJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kyrie was quite meh, but luka closed with 3 straight triple doubles, his playmaking was very good and his defense was commendable.

Kyrie being mainly a scorer should do better next round.

[Kblaze8855]

People are just really, really selective about efficiency concerns. If you rep the player, it doesn’t matter and the game is more than numbers. If you don’t, the efficiency numbers get leaned on and they got carried. We can add more words to the argument on both sides, but an awful lot of it is going to come down to that.

Very little matters to people if they have allegiances that determine the spin they put on it, regardless of what actually happened.

[ShawkFactory]

Great all around game? He averaged 2 boards a game. Did he lock up SGA? He was not a primary defender on any scoring threat.

Yea. He made great decisions, several huge plays, and generally seemed to be in the right place at the right time. Overall winning basketball.

He wasn’t the best player on the court or anything but he doesn’t need to be. Dort and Shai are two of the best perimeter defenders in the league so it was always going to be a tough series for him offensively. But instead of forcing things he made the right plays.

I like this version of Kyrie.

[SouBeachTalents]

I agree that stat lines don't always tell the whole story, so you can disagree with labeling it as an "underperformance", but OP is 100% correct that this has to be the first time in history that the top 2 players saw their regular season production drop off by 10 ppg, with much worse efficiency to boot, and still won the series. I don't even think that's up for debate.

[NBAGOAT]

Role players played well but overall Dallas has just become a really good defense and Kyrie and Luka get some credit for that too.

[90sgoat]

This is just a physical game like we haven't seen Pistons in early 00s and particularly Seattle in 96 finals.

If Seattle could keep MJ to shooting sub 40%, then I don't think Luka or Kyrie need to worry.

Iverson also frequently shot like shit in the playoffs back then, in fact his first 5 post seasons he averages less than 40%, then they change the rules to make it easier and jumps to 46% the next year.

Physical basketball is just not going to showcase offense really clicking. It's going to be fighting for every make and a lot of missed shots.

I think the physicality is too much, but someone like Shai shows that the midrange reigns supreme in such a scenario.

[tpols]

This is just a physical game like we haven't seen Pistons in early 00s and particularly Seattle in 96 finals.

If Seattle could keep MJ to shooting sub 40%, then I don't think Luka or Kyrie need to worry.

Iverson also frequently shot like shit in the playoffs back then, in fact his first 5 post seasons he averages less than 40%, then they change the rules to make it easier and jumps to 46% the next year.

Physical basketball is just not going to showcase offense really clicking. It's going to be fighting for every make and a lot of missed shots.

I think the physicality is too much, but someone like Shai shows that the midrange reigns supreme in such a scenario.

Dallas strategy on SGA was to let PJ and DJJ take him 1v1 and only help deep in the paint.

OKC apparently was the best 3pt shooting team by % in the NBA on the year. They were #1 ranked. And against Dallas they shot what would be considered like 25th rank from 3.

Jason Kidd isn't dumb. He knew the key to defending OKC wasn't to blitz SGA... but to not allow the role players open 3s that they hit at a #1 rank. So he lived with the SGA isos and middy game.

And it paid off. SGA got his sexy numbers, but the team was cold from 3. On the flipside OKC double trapped Luka and kyrie and it allowed the role players to go off from 3.

Context.

[90sgoat]

Dallas strategy on SGA was to let PJ and DJJ take him 1v1 and only help deep in the paint.

OKC apparently was the best 3pt shooting team by % in the NBA on the year. They were #1 ranked. And against Dallas they shot what would be considered like 25th rank from 3.

Jason Kidd isn't dumb. He knew the key to defending OKC wasn't to blitz SGA... but to not allow the role players open 3s that they hit at a #1 rank. So he lived with the SGA isos and middy game.

And it paid off. SGA got his sexy numbers, but the team was cold from 3. On the flipside OKC double trapped Luka and kyrie and it allowed the role players to go off from 3.

Context.

True, but Shai really is an all time great midrange shooter, it wasn't just strategy.

[BarberSchool]

When a team doubles a star 35ft from the cup, as opposed to say doubling inside the arc, and he’s big enough to throw bullet passes over the double team, the resulting 4-on-3’s and 3-on-2’s going downhill, are generally very good eating for the PJ Washington, Derrick Jones Jr, Derrick Lively’s of the world.

[BarberSchool]

True, but Shai really is an all time great midrange shooter, it wasn't just strategy.I would argue he is a top 5 all time mid range shooter, already. His lift isn’t great at all. But the variety of postures from all areas, and composure to be patient and regain stability and stay 100% calm on release; never being sped up or made frantic, makes him really shockingly efficient and effective, his 11-14ft game is second to none in today’s league; and top 5 all time IMHO.

In any pre-Steph era, where opponents shot less 3’s, Shai brand of iso scoring would be even more deadly.

[tpols]

True, but Shai really is an all time great midrange shooter, it wasn't just strategy.

Yea but they never blitzed him 25 feet out. They let him go to work in the midrange 1v1. Because if they didn't... OKC would've lit the 3pt line up. It's kind of a pick your poison thing but it clearly worked in the end. I'm just trying to give context to the stats.

SGA was NOT being defended the same way Luka and Kyrie were. OKC dared PJ and DJJ and Lively to beat them. Dallas dared SGA to beat them. And he almost did.

[3ba11]

It's an easy answer OP - ball-domination is extremely easy to beat - you don't need much to beat it... A 1-star team was enough in 2009, and now a bed-wetting Luka and Kyrie is more than enough... And they didn't need 7 games just like Dwight's Magic.

Now let's watch the Nuggets play below-par and still beat Luka-ball.. Nuggets in 5 despite not playing their best.

[ShawkFactory]

Yea but they never blitzed him 25 feet out. They let him go to work in the midrange 1v1. Because if they didn't... OKC would've lit the 3pt line up. It's kind of a pick your poison thing but it clearly worked in the end. I'm just trying to give context to the stats.

SGA was NOT being defended the same way Luka and Kyrie were. OKC dared PJ and DJJ and Lively to beat them. Dallas dared SGA to beat them. And he almost did.

Yea that was the clear game plan to not sell out on Shai in a pick your poison scenario. He played amazing basketball but I think the biggest difference was just they don’t have a Lively or a Gafford to clean things up.

[Carbine]

Yea that was the clear game plan to not sell out on Shai in a pick your poison scenario. He played amazing basketball but I think the biggest difference was just they don’t have a Lively or a Gafford to clean things up.

No, they just have a player with KD + potential according to some people in this thread LOL.

My god what a farce that comp was.

[Carbine]

People are just really, really selective about efficiency concerns. If you rep the player, it doesn’t matter and the game is more than numbers. If you don’t, the efficiency numbers get leaned on and they got carried. We can add more words to the argument on both sides, but an awful lot of it is going to come down to that.

Very little matters to people if they have allegiances that determine the spin they put on it, regardless of what actually happened.

Exactly right.

[3ba11]

Yea that was the clear game plan to not sell out on Shai in a pick your poison scenario. He played amazing basketball but I think the biggest difference was just they don’t have a Lively or a Gafford to clean things up.


Draymond explained why SGA lost:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=kEx6NQjxx3g&t=4m35s


The "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't produce great chemistry that yields great-performing casts, aka great teams... "no one can join the party" according to Barkley, when you play with a "down-hill" player (not 5-man basketball).

[ShawkFactory]

No, they just have a player with KD + potential according to some people in this thread LOL.

My god what a farce that comp was.

Huh?

[SATAN]

lmao@the Luka apologists. OP is right no matter how you slice it.