Did the Jokic fans get ahead of themselves?

[Im Still Ballin]

They learned a valuable lesson today: never count your chickens before they're hatched. Maybe Nikola isn't as good as they say he is. Maybe he's a Moses Malone type not a top 10 GOAT. Maybe it's all arbitrary and there's not that much between them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL3rtaUmfLc&ab_channel=JimJohnston-Topic

[1987_Lakers]

Ain't no way I'm taking Moses Malone over Jokic.

[elementally morale]

Or maybe it's just a good day to post things like this. Denver lost. Jokic had 34/19/7 in a game 7 while being guarded by a tandem of 3 big men. He led all players in efficiency in the playoffs (again). He could've played better but this loss is not really on him. He did more than okay.

[j3lademaster]

Jokic is that good, Minnesota's defense is just otherworldly. Not a lot of guys can push this Wolves team to 7 games with their second option playing like Murray.

[Im Still Ballin]

They were talking about how his "GOAT run" starts now. Talking about multiple championships like it ain't a thing. Like it was a given.

But on Any Given Sunday...

[NBAGOAT]

the ones who crowned jokic individually no he's damn good. Had a meh series but it's no chokejob. the ones who expected denver to be a dynasty yes. They're a damn good team with a really good starting 5 but not a superteam and murray and porter are streaky as hell for your 2nd and 3rd scorers. Murray isnt putting up 26ppg on great efficiency every playoffs when he's a 21ppg on average efficiency during the regular season. Now if they could make a big trade maybe a dynasty is possible. I'm looking at mpj for a great wing like bridges

[SouBeachTalents]

This has happened with every recent player that's been anointed the next GOAT contender

Kawhi leaves Toronto, blows a 3-1 lead in the bubble, hasn't been relevant since.

KD leaves Golden State, has won 2 playoff series in 5 years.

Giannis has won a single playoff series the last 3 years since his title.

Hell, even Steph blew the 3-1 Finals lead, then had to hear how KD rescued him until he broke through in 2022.

It's extremely difficult to sustain runs of dominance, it very well may be the case with Jokic too. We'll have to see how Denver responds to this.

[Mask the Embiid]

Duncan swept Lebron in the 07 finals when he was 22…and that was Lebron……..swept….. you can never compare them again


https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

[RRR3]

This has happened with every recent player that's been anointed the next GOAT contender

Kawhi leaves Toronto, blows a 3-1 lead in the bubble, hasn't been relevant since.

KD leaves Golden State, has won 2 playoff series in 5 years.

Giannis has won a single playoff series the last 3 years since his title.

Hell, even Steph blew the 3-1 Finals lead, then had to hear how KD rescued him until he broke through in 2022.

It's extremely difficult to sustain runs of dominance, it very well may be the case with Jokic too. We'll have to see how Denver responds to this.
Perhaps not coincidentally, Steph is also the best player you mentioned.

[FireDavidKahn]

Jokic balled out. His teammates let him down

[post]

it's been said before but teams win games not individuals

maybe one day everyone will just accept this obvious truth

[Im Still Ballin]

Hey, fellas! I'm not saying he's not a great player. Just maybe that he's not as special and unique as you want him to be. And I've said the same about Doncic recently. It's funny who we elevate and who we deride. Chris Paul was a hell of a player. Tracy McGrady when he was healthy and 100% in Orlando too.

[Norcaliblunt]

Problem with Jokic fans is they are player stans and aren’t real Denver fans. Are there even any Nuggets fans here?

So they epitomize everything annoying and wrong with new age fandom.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hey, fellas! I'm not saying he's not a great player. Just maybe that he's not as special and unique as you want him to be. And I've said the same about Doncic recently. It's funny who we elevate and who we deride. Chris Paul was a hell of a player. Tracy McGrady when he was healthy and 100% in Orlando too.
It's pretty ridiculous to make this claim after this loss, where Jokic while not quite his usual brilliant self, still played really well. This would be no different than fans saying this about Kareem in the 70's or Wilt in the 60's with "just" 1 title, championships are a team accomplishment.

[Im Still Ballin]

It's pretty ridiculous to make this claim after this loss, where Jokic while not quite his usual brilliant self, still played really well. This would be no different than fans saying this about Kareem in the 70's, Wilt in the 60's, championships are a team accomplishment.

And this is exactly my point. You immediately group him with KAJ and Wilt. But would you do the same for CP3? He always played his ass off in the playoffs. Circumstances dictated he was never rewarded with a championship.

Many great players should get this reasoning but they don't.

[Axe]

Well, he won another mvp this year. And you folks know well that it still has its own lingering curse on these players, just not him alone.

[elementally morale]

Problem with Jokic fans is they are player stans and aren’t real Denver fans. Are there even any Nuggets fans here?

So they epitomize everything annoying and wrong with new age fandom.

Most Jokic fans on this board are over 40. New age. Of all the great players in the NBA, Jokic' fans are probably the oldest here.

[Im Still Ballin]

Most Jokic fans on this board are over 40. New age. Of all the great players in the NBA, Jokic' fans are probably the oldest here.

You see, you just pulled this 100% out of your ass. Just more ego posturing from his fans. As if you're suggesting Jokic is some higher, acquired taste or something.

[FultzNationRISE]

Or maybe it's just a good day to post things like this. Denver lost. Jokic had 34/19/7 in a game 7 while being guarded by a tandem of 3 big men. He led all players in efficiency in the playoffs (again). He could've played better but this loss is not really on him. He did more than okay.

It’s like that thread I made about everyone immediately pronouncing every series over after game 1.

People dont have the discipline or capacity to think big picture. Every single daily result brings with it a sudden massive shift to the entire big picture paradigm. You win a big game today youre GOAT, you lose one tomorrow youre WOAT.

Its like arguing with gold fish. Theres no memories or perspective.

Whatever just happened two seconds ago, no matter how anomalous or unlikely to be repeated, IS THE THING AND THE ONLY THING FOREVER.

Thats just the nature of public debate.

[SouBeachTalents]

And this is exactly my point. You immediately group him with KAJ and Wilt. But would you do the same for CP3? He always played his ass off in the playoffs. Circumstances dictated he was never rewarded with a championship.

Many great players should get this reasoning but they don't.
I was just giving an example, if you don't think he belongs with those guys I'm not going to argue that. But CP3? C'mon :oldlol: Since 2021 Jokic's reached a level of play he's frankly never touched. Put CP3 on the Nuggets last year I'd bet good money they don't even get past Phoenix, and they certainly wouldn't win this year.

[j3lademaster]

And this is exactly my point. You immediately group him with KAJ and Wilt. But would you do the same for CP3? He always played his ass off in the playoffs. Circumstances dictated he was never rewarded with a championship.

Many great players should get this reasoning but they don't.Sure, if cp3 was putting up the playoff metrics Jokic did. He dominates every statistic, advanced or otherwise and passes the eye test. CP3 was never that good.

[1987_Lakers]

It’s like that thread I made about everyone immediately pronouncing every series over after game 1.

People dont have the discipline or capacity to think big picture. Every single daily result brings with it a sudden massive shift to the entire big picture paradigm. You win a big game today youre GOAT, you lose one tomorrow youre WOAT.

Its like arguing with gold fish. Theres no memories or perspective.

Whatever just happened two seconds ago, no matter how anomalous or unlikely to be repeated, IS THE THING AND THE ONLY THING FOREVER.

Thats just the nature of public debate.

Edward Bernays knew about this and used it to manipulate Americans for decades.

[FultzNationRISE]

This has happened with every recent player that's been anointed the next GOAT contender

Kawhi leaves Toronto, blows a 3-1 lead in the bubble, hasn't been relevant since.

KD leaves Golden State, has won 2 playoff series in 5 years.

Giannis has won a single playoff series the last 3 years since his title.

Hell, even Steph blew the 3-1 Finals lead, then had to hear how KD rescued him until he broke through in 2022.

It's extremely difficult to sustain runs of dominance, it very well may be the case with Jokic too. We'll have to see how Denver responds to this.

And the league has been actively ensuring that with intention in recent years.

Muh****ers who think Bill Russell is winning 11/13 chips today because he did before, and because hes just a pure winner are turd brained NPCs. And there ARE people who think that. And they use that as arguments why hes better than so and so who played in an era where thats impossible. “Bc hes a WINNER!”

Anyone who thinks MJ wins 6 in 8 years TODAY isnt much better. The league has far more talent parity and salary restrictions to prevent that.

But its not gonna stop people from making pea brained arguments. Nothing ever does.

[elementally morale]

You see, you just pulled this 100% out of your ass. Just more ego posturing from his fans. As if you're suggesting Jokic is some higher, acquired taste or something.

It's almost sure the Jokic fans are the oldest here but not due to it being acquired taste but because his game is not new age at all. It's pretty oldschool. Traditional team basketball. So many of us are watching him because of that.

[Axe]

Sure, if cp3 was putting up the playoff metrics Jokic did. He dominates every statistic, advanced or otherwise and passes the eye test. CP3 was never that good.
Would be possible if he won mvps before but no. Despite having skills, they weren't revolutionary plus he didn't have the size. But he could be a good veteran on young teams, like with okc in 2020 and phoenix in 2021.

[Norcaliblunt]

Most Jokic fans on this board are over 40. New age. Of all the great players in the NBA, Jokic' fans are probably the oldest here.

People falling in line with new age behavior has nothing to do with a persons actual age. I’m talking this modern tendency to Stan out over players and not homer out over teams. Most Jokic fans are not Denver Nuggets fans so that makes them Stan’s straight up by definition.

[Im Still Ballin]

It's almost sure the Jokic fans are the oldest here but not due to it being acquired taste but because his game is not new age at all. It's pretty oldschool. Traditional team basketball. So many of us are watching him because of that.

And do you have proof of this? Or is it just an ego-driven assumption?

[FultzNationRISE]

And this is exactly my point. You immediately group him with KAJ and Wilt. But would you do the same for CP3? He always played his ass off in the playoffs. Circumstances dictated he was never rewarded with a championship.

Many great players should get this reasoning but they don't.


CP had a lot of great playoff performances, but with more caveats than others at the very top.

He was injured often, and had a penchant for going passive on the final possession of close games.

So of course hes not gonna be ranked with the GOATS. But I dont think anyone says he was a bum either. He needed to play with a ‘closer’ and never got to.

But the fact he wasnt a closer himself is a valid knock.

[Im Still Ballin]

Sure, if cp3 was putting up the playoff metrics Jokic did. He dominates every statistic, advanced or otherwise and passes the eye test. CP3 was never that good.

Chris Paul's numbers and performance was still great in the playoffs - eye test, box score, and play-by-play. But where's the cutoff? How do we determine who the "winners" and who the "chokers" are? It just seems like it's arbitrary and based on your own personal biases.

[elementally morale]

And do you have proof of this? Or is it just an ego-driven assumption?

It's an observation.

Not really important though. It was just funny you said it's a new age thing. Not really. New age is impossible threes and athletic plays.

[FultzNationRISE]

Chris Paul's number were still great in the playoffs - eye test, box score, and play-by-play. But where's the cutoff? How do we determine who the "winners" and who the "chokers" are? It just seems like it's arbitrary and based on your own personal biases.

Its not tho. CP3 got that reputation for a reason. He would be brilliant in a lot of fourth quarters but then in game-on-the-line scenarios he inexplicably disappeared. Often didnt even look for a shot.

Thats why he got that knock.

[elementally morale]

People falling in line with new age behavior has nothing to do with a persons actual age. I’m talking this modern tendency to Stan out over players and not homer out over teams. Most Jokic fans are not Denver Nuggets fans so that makes them Stan’s straight up by definition.

All over the world? I think you are right. Most non-American fans of European players are usually not long-time fans of any team. They tend to switch.

[1987_Lakers]

CP had a lot of great playoff performances, but with more caveats than others at the very top.

He was injured often, and had a penchant for going passive on the final possession of close games.

So of course hes not gonna be ranked with the GOATS. But I dont think anyone says he was a bum either. He needed to play with a ‘closer’ and never got to.

But the fact he wasnt a closer himself is a valid knock.

To be fair, he was never the scorer LeBron, Curry, KD etc. were so it's a bit unfair to just expect him to take over a game consistently. He had some bad moments and some good moments in the playoffs, but in the end it was the injuries that really did him in.

If he doesn't get injured in 2018, people would look at him in a different light.

[FultzNationRISE]

To be fair, he was never the scorer LeBron, Curry, KD etc. were so it's a bit unfair to just expect him to take over a game consistently. He had some bad moments and some good moments in the playoffs, but in the end it was the injuries that really did him in.

Thats true, but he actually was a GOOD scorer when he asserted himself that way. And more importantly, he was usually his team’s best option. Im fine with him making a pass for a game winner if he put pressure on the D and forced them to collapse or whatever. But I remember times with the Clippers where he would just give the ball up early on a final possession, even as he was the one who scored a bunch to bring them back, and just avoid forcing the issue in game on the line scenarios. It was really strange.

[Im Still Ballin]

Its not tho. CP3 got that reputation for a reason. He would be brilliant in a lot of fourth quarters but then in game-on-the-line scenarios he inexplicably disappeared. Often didnt even look for a shot.

Thats why he got that knock.

And Jokic hasn't had disappointing playoff moments? 2019? 2020? 2021? 2022? 2024?

And I know what your response is going to be. You're going to contextualize and rationalize; and acknowledge all the varying factors that influenced the outcome, the result. Injuries, strength of opposition, age, etc.

But are you willing to do the same for CP3 and the other great players who you don't favor?

I just think we need to cool it on NBA elitism among the great players. Not handing out labels and seals of approval before the game's been won. Not counting chickens before they're hatched.

[FultzNationRISE]

And Jokic hasn't had disappointing playoff moments? 2019? 2020? 2021? 2022? 2024?

And I know what your response is going to be. You're going to contextualize and rationalize; and acknowledge all the varying factors that influenced the outcome, the result. Injuries, strength of opposition, age, etc.

But are you willing to do the same for CP3 and the other great players who you don't favor?

I just think we need to cool it on NBA elitism among the great players. Not handing out labels and seals of approval before the game's been won. Not counting chickens before they're hatched.

I literally just did.

I explained both his struggles and successes in context.

Isnt that what youre asking for..?

[Micku]

I felt like Jokic was very good. But in order to win this game, he had to be legendary. He had to have the game 5 performance.

Denver let go of the gas. You could argue his teammates didn't knock down their shots other than Jamal Murray, which is true. But Jokic had a lot of wide-open 3s he couldn't knock down. 2/10? And he settled for them, played right into Minny's hands.

Tweak a few things with Denver, and they would be back into it. Can't have them doing a Thibs and running the players down to the ground.

But one thing is for certain, he ain't having a MJ-like run. Blew a 20 point lead, while having homecourt.


He's still the best player in the league. Just couldn't get it done this time around.

[Im Still Ballin]

I literally just did.

I explained both his struggles and successes in context.

Isnt that what youre asking for..?

I want consistency and honesty. Are you sure you're being unbiased and fair? How sure are you?

You can believe Jokic is the better player and has performed better in the postseason, even given circumstances. But to what degree?

How can you say "this guy's in" while "this guy's not." It's like you're the bouncer at the club and you've let one guy in but not the other when the difference between the two patrons isn't enough to justify the discrimination. At least in my opinion, it isn't. The more I think about it the less confident I am about these arbitrary groupings.

Maybe you're not saying these things but several are on ISH.

[ImKobe]

People definitely got ahead of themselves online, starting top 10 all-time arguments for Jokic and saying he's better than peak Lebron/Curry and a better player than Jordan and all that bullshit. He showed up in the 1st half of that G7 but when it got tight he settled for 3s than mostly missed and watched his team blow the biggest 2nd half deficit of a G7 in NBA history. I could care less about the numbers argument in this era tbh with the amount of possessions he's playing, it's clearly not the same as averaging 30 even 10 years ago if a washed Lebron can put up the same averages he did at his peak.

If he was a defender at the same level that prime/peak Lebron & Jordan were, his team would have won this game. Him being average at best with weaknesses that these teams consistently exploit take him down a notch for me.

[FultzNationRISE]

I want consistency and honesty. Are you sure you're being unbiased and fair? How sure are you?

You can believe Jokic is the better player and has performed better in the postseason, even given circumstances. But to what degree?

How can you say "this guy's in" while "this guy's not." It's like you're the bouncer at the club and you've let one guy in but not the other when the difference between the two patrons isn't enough to justify the discrimination. At least in my opinion, it isn't. The more I think about it the less confident I am about these arbitrary groupings.

Maybe you're not saying these things but several are on ISH.


No Im with you. Im not into pigeonholing and hard-ranking guys, altho I do think in some cases general reputations and consensus tiers of quality exist for a reason. But theres a lot more arbitrary circumstance involved than most people appreciate.

[SATAN]

How was this game a knock against Jokic? lol. The team played shit and he ran out of steam. He's still a beast but no single player can win alone. His sidekick was injured and below average most of the series. I don't think his defense is as bad as some say although I did notice he looked a bit "out of it" a few times this game.

Anyone who already ranked him above the top dogs is an idiot but the quick reactions by fans particularly this season are ****ing insane all round.

[John8204]

How was this game a knock against Jokic? lol. The team played shit and he ran out of steam. He's still a beast but no single player can win alone. His sidekick was injured and below average most of the series. I don't think his defense is as bad as some say although I did notice he looked a bit "out of it" a few times this game.

Anyone who already ranked him above the top dogs is an idiot but the quick reactions by fans particularly this season are ****ing insane all round.

Okay I brought this up in another thread and I think it's important to bring up here. If you make the NBA/Conference finals that's a metric of greatness, that tells me that you've made a title run you might not be successful but it's something that we can go back throughout the years and look at players and say okay this is when they came close.

Embiid - 0
Jokic - 2
Walton - 3
Malone - 4
Robinson - 4
Ewing - 4
Hakeem - 4
McAdoo - 4
Thurmond - 5
Reed - 6
Mikan - 8
Shaq - 9
Wilt - 12
Bill - 13
Kareem - 14

Jokic is an MVP but what I've seen in these last two series against the Lakers and Wolves is that he is declining. It's unrealistic to think that he's got 7-8 great seasons left in him. The projections for Joker have always been higher than his actual achievements...and that's less on him and more the fans. Because he is a top ten center but he's not getting the numbers/rings/runs that other great bigs have had so putting him in a GOAT conversation was always more fashionable (because he's current) than reasonable (because history does matter).

[Im Still Ballin]

Okay I brought this up in another thread and I think it's important to bring up here. If you make the NBA/Conference finals that's a metric of greatness, that tells me that you've made a title run you might not be successful but it's something that we can go back throughout the years and look at players and say okay this is when they came close.

Embiid - 0
Jokic - 2
Walton - 3
Malone - 4
Robinson - 4
Ewing - 4
Hakeem - 4
McAdoo - 4
Thurmond - 5
Reed - 6
Mikan - 8
Shaq - 9
Wilt - 12
Bill - 13
Kareem - 14

Jokic is an MVP but what I've seen in these last two series against the Lakers and Wolves is that he is declining. It's unrealistic to think that he's got 7-8 great seasons left in him. The projections for Joker have always been higher than his actual achievements...and that's less on him and more the fans. Because he is a top ten center but he's not getting the numbers/rings/runs that other great bigs have had so putting him in a GOAT conversation was always more fashionable (because he's current) than reasonable (because history does matter).

Judging based on Conference Finals is fairer than NBA Finals but still is arbitrary. It's hugely biased towards the players lucky enough to 1) have a strong supporting cast and 2) play in a weak conference.

[John8204]

Judging based on Conference Finals is fairer than NBA Finals but still is arbitrary. It's hugely biased towards the players lucky enough to 1) have a strong supporting cast and 2) play in a weak conference.

I think any criteria is arbitrary including MVP's...however if you are going to rank Jokic as a top five center you have to figure out a way to come to terms with his lack of post season success.

[post]

1. a guy could score 100 points and lose and some would say he should've scored 101

2. if everything is arbitrary there is no answer so what's the point endlessly talking about it

3. jokic ranks in the top 3 all time in career playoff and regular season per/ws48/bpm

that is all

[Kblaze8855]

Ain't no way I'm taking Moses Malone over Jokic.

Doesn’t mean they are roughly similar in effectiveness or that they can’t end up having similar careers. Three time MVP 13 time All-Star finals MVP, 8 time all NBA, 31/15 guy Who was also all D first team Considered the best player in a league that had an MVP Kareem and bird and magic having championships. I think he retired something like the fourth leading scorer in history.

He just suffered from something that will probably hit both of them. Having a game not considered pretty or interesting to casual fans. And winning once isn’t enough.

People start to win and the projections come. Fans were on here acting like Jokic couldn’t be beat. Hes won once And like everybody else is going to lose almost his whole career.

It’s entirely possible both of them only winning once and being top 20 in the eyes of most fans who don’t really care how effective you were. Moses was out there with a worse version of the team Jokic has(Murphy being Murray) beating the showtime Lakers with pure heart and motor. 38/23 shit with guys you never heard of against a team with 3 starting hall of famers and an additional all star and a DPOY(who I now remember is a 4th hall of famer I just choose not to call one).

It was a pretty similar degree of “Wtf is happening?” but history disregards the ugly games.

And to a lot of people(that I don’t understand) Jokic is that now. I see him called a skyscraper with legs. Boring. He miiiiiight not last as an elite guy in the eyes of the public.

And without more winning he definitely won’t have the resume. If you think “Yea but the skills….” saves you I’d suggest you read modern fans talk about Larry Bird.

Jokic could easily end up on the Moses tier. Fans who remember his era will always have more respect for him than Moses, but fans who remember the Moses era have more respect for him than fans who don’t. Difference Isn’t staggering as you might think when one is just a few ugly highlights and numbers. They just dominated in different ways according to the times requirements.

[Kblaze8855]

1. a guy could score 100 points and lose and some would say he should've scored 101

2. if everything is arbitrary there is no answer so what's the point endlessly talking about it

3. jokic ranks in the top 3 all time in career playoff and regular season per/ws48/bpm

that is all


How many people did at the moment if you stoped counting at the peak of their powers?

[rawimpact]

Jokic faced two defensive bigs... against what, the number one defensive team?

It's rare for a team to win back-to-back for a reason.

Look who has done it the last three decades, it's hard to put the Nuggets in that tier.

Off the top of my head I recall warriors, lakers, lakers again then the bulls

edit: rockets too

[post]

How many people did at the moment if you stoped counting at the peak of their powers?

i don't know

i could also point out jokic has lead the playoffs in per 4 times now compared to kareem 7 jordan/wilt 6 lebron 5

you could call that arbitrary or some of the best evidence there is so you make the best out of an imperfect situation

[StrongLurk]

I definitely thought the Nuggets were going to repeat, but so much depends on health. Jamal Murray was not healthy these playoffs. Hell look at the Pacers, they just won two series in a row when their opponents were decimated by injuries.

This is why luck is a real factor in the "GOAT" argument (which requires winning). You can be the best player in the league and still not even make the finals.

Jokic himself had yet ANOTHER great playoff run from an individual perspective. Hopefully he will be around another 6-7 years and we'll see if his team can win again.

[Gohan]

Jokic faced two defensive bigs... against what, the number one defensive team?

It's rare for a team to win back-to-back for a reason.

Look who has done it the last three decades, it's hard to put the Nuggets in that tier.

Off the top of my head I recall warriors, lakers, lakers again then the bulls

edit: rockets too

One of the defensive bigs is a fraud and one stopped him

[tpols]

I mean he put up 35/19/7. That's better than prime Shaq line and they held minny to 90 something points so the defense was decent.

AG and MPJ shit the bed. I told yall this nugget team would be lotto in the regular season without Yolk and they absolutely would be with Murray missing half the season and zero Bench being led by Gordon and porter jr.

[tontoz]

Jokic and Murray combined for 69 points. The rest of the team had 21. Hard to lay that at Joker's feet.

[Kblaze8855]

Jokic and Murray combined for 69 points. The rest of the team had 21. Hard to lay that at Joker's feet.

It is. But people didn’t have trouble laying the whole playoffs at Jokics feet last year when Jamal was having 32/6/5 65ts series.

In the end…it all gets laid at the best players feet. Always has.

Youre right. But that doesn’t change the culture.

[tontoz]

It is. But people didn’t have trouble laying the whole playoffs at Jokics feet last year when Jamal was having 32/6/5 65ts series.

In the end…it all gets laid at the best players feet. Always has.

Youre right. But that doesn’t change the culture.


in the playoffs last year Jokic averaged 30/13.5/9.5 with a 70% TS, leading the team in all 4 categories. That is for the entire playoffs not one series.

[Carbine]

in the playoffs last year Jokic averaged 30/13.5/9.5 with a 70% TS, leading the team in all 4 categories. That is for the entire playoffs not one series.

He most definitely did not do 70 TS last playoffs

[Carbine]

Not even close

[warriorfan]

https://i.postimg.cc/JnvkN80D/IMG-3582.jpg

This is kinda interesting

[Carbine]

I saw that the Nuggets have never beaten a 50 win team in the playoffs with Jokic.

[tontoz]

https://i.postimg.cc/JnvkN80D/IMG-3582.jpg

This is kinda interesting

That's dumb.

First of all this "era" thing is obviously going back to the bubble or maybe even prior to that. They were't true title contenders until last year. In the previous years they had guys out or weren't ready.

That graphic includes the year they were without Murry/MPJ facing the eventual champ Warriors. :facepalm

Secondly the Nuggets were a 1/2 seed in the last two years so there are only two possible teams they could face in the west with a top 3 seed. They weren't going to face a top seed in the first round. Duh

Last year the 2/3 seeds were Sacramento and Memphis. Do you really think Denver would have lost to either of those teams?
:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

in the playoffs last year Jokic averaged 30/13.5/9.5 with a 70% TS, leading the team in all 4 categories. That is for the entire playoffs not one series.

Jamal did Kobe numbers except he shot 47/40/93 for the whole playoffs. And again There seems to be little hesitation to lay it at the feet of one player. As I said that’s just the way the world works.

[Overdrive]

I will hold my judgement until his career is over. Jokic is the first player in the last 25 years that gives me the the vibes of undeniability, but at the same time his team isn't as well constructed as Minny rn or Boston. He could end up having 1 chip or still squeeze out more. We'll see in a few years.

[Mask the Embiid]

Got his ass kicked by a 22 year old inferior Jordan clone...without pippen

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

[highwhey]

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif/IMG]

:roll:

[Overdrive]

Got his ass kicked by a 22 year old inferior Jordan clone...without pippen

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

Embiid got his ass kicked by Luka's sidekick. In the first round. Your dude accomplished nothing in his career.

[SouBeachTalents]

Embiid got his ass kicked by Luka's sidekick. In the first round. Your dude accomplished nothing in his career.
The result he's bumped 2 dozen threads over is literally the apex of Embiid's career :lol

[tontoz]

The result he's bumped 2 dozen threads over is literally the apex of Embiid's career :lol


Yeah that simpleton seems to forget that gif is from the Suns sweep, not Ants 6-24 game 7.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah that simpleton seems to forget that gif is from the Suns sweep, not Ants 6-24 game 7.
He also keeps talking about losing to a 22 year old when Embiid lost to an inferior 22 year old in Trae :lol

[elementally morale]

As for me, I basically said two things:

1) Jokic is top 15ish all time if he wins another MVP (which he did) and borderline top 10 if it's MVP+FMVP (didn't happen)
2) If we just take a look at 'ability to play the game' he is Tier1 for me. I don't really differentiate among players in Tier1.

I stand by both claims.

However, if he has plans to continue shooting this many threes, he should practice. He is not good enough a shooter from the outside to make 5+ attempts from 3. I really disliked the set plays after timeouts ending up him taking a 3 pointer with 20 secs on the shot clock. That's a good play for Curry, not Jokic.

[Soundwave]

I like Jokic and do think he has a fair shot of being in the top 10 .... that said 1 championship only is basically a non-starter for top 10 inclusion. It's a 2-ring minimum to sit at the high roller's table and even 2 rings is on the low end of things.

He needs to win at it all at least one more time.

[Da_Realist]

A little bit. The Nuggets coughed up a 20 point deficit at home in Game 7 in less than one quarter of play with Jokic on the court every minute of it. Great, great player but maybe we should hold off on designating him the greatest offensive player in history. Had this been Kobe or LeBron or any other MVP-level player, he'd be getting crucified for it.

[Overdrive]

A little bit. The Nuggets coughed up a 20 point deficit at home in Game 7 in less than one quarter of play with Jokic on the court every minute of it. Great, great player but maybe we should hold off on designating him the greatest offensive player in history. Had this been Kobe or LeBron or any other MVP-level player, he'd be getting crucified for it.

Big part of that is how they carried themselves. They all at some point declared themselves greatest in the game or something similar. Of course they will be held accountable, while Jokic basically said the NBA is a job for him.

Being a great offensive talent also doesn't compensate for a team that can't defend a 20 pt lead. What should he do? Score 30 a quarter along with 5 assists?

[Da_Realist]

Big part of that is how they carried themselves. They all at some point declared themselves greatest in the game or something similar. Of course they will be held accountable, while Jokic basically said the NBA is a job for him.

Being a great offensive talent also doesn't compensate for a team that can't defend a 20 pt lead. What should he do? Score 30 a quarter along with 5 assists?

A great offensive talent should be able to keep a team from overcoming a 20 point deficit in less than 12 minutes. A great offensive talent should know how to manufacture points either for himself or his teammates in a way to stave off a collapse like that at home in the biggest game of the entire season. It's not just what he scores or assists but how he does it. That may mean shooting more free throws than threes. Slowing down the tempo and putting pressure on the defense. Making sure to keep the other team from gaining momentum is more important than the final tally of points and assists. A great offensive player steps up when the team needs him most. Especially so for a guy some consider the greatest offensive weapon in league history. It's one thing to score enough to keep the other team at bay and another to scramble to score points after watching the other team come all the way back and take the lead. On your court. In Game 7. The best offensive player in history should know the difference between timely baskets and just baskets.

I say this not as a way to disparage Jokic or even to blame him for the loss. He's still the worthy MVP and best player in the league. But he didn't do what was needed last night. I don't care what the box score says. He was fresh going into the 3rd quarter after resting at halftime. A great offensive player would have found a way to ice the game after his team led by 20 in the 3rd quarter.

[j3lademaster]

A little bit. The Nuggets coughed up a 20 point deficit at home in Game 7 in less than one quarter of play with Jokic on the court every minute of it. Great, great player but maybe we should hold off on designating him the greatest offensive player in history. Had this been Kobe or LeBron or any other MVP-level player, he'd be getting crucified for it.Lebron would get absolutely crucified, but I think most- even the biggest Jokic fans- will admit Lebron was better peak vs peak so it's hard to count that one. But Kobe was more of a Hardenesque elimination game performer.

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.pn g

[jlip]

Meh. Jokic could still win one or two more titles and end up on the Larry Bird their. While playing a completely different style or brand of basketball, right now, the trajectory of his career is not much worse than the first decade of Wilt's or Kareem's. Without doing much evaluation, he is already on the Moses Malone level which places him easily as a top 15 to 20 player ever.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron would get absolutely crucified, but I think most- even the biggest Jokic fans- will admit Lebron was better peak vs peak so it's hard to count that one. But Kobe was more of a Hardenesque elimination game performer.

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.pn g
Kobe never had an elimination game that even touches the one Jokic had last night :lol

[j3lademaster]

Kobe never had an elimination game that even touches the one Jokic had last night :lolHis best one was 42/5/0 on 18/33 shooting... but they lost so that performance is shit, if we want to be consistent.

[j3lademaster]

Meh. Jokic could still win one or two more titles and end up on the Larry Bird their. While playing a completely different style or brand of basketball, right now, the trajectory of his career is not much worse than the first decade of Wilt's or Kareem's. Without doing much evaluation, he is already on the Moses Malone level which places him easily as a top 15 to 20 player ever.Modern players would get absolutely obliterated for having Larry Bird's playoff failures. Fans just didn't have the access to information and stats and players weren't put under a microscope like they are today; which is why past players are mythologized so. And I'm not trying to say Bird isn't an all time great. He absolutely was, I just think his poop probably stunk like everyone else's and rose petals don't fall from the heavens to his feet when he enters a room.

[SouBeachTalents]

Modern players would get absolutely obliterated for having Larry Bird's playoff failures. Fans just didn't have the access to information and stats and players weren't put under a microscope like they are today; which is why past players are mythologized so. And I'm not trying to say Bird isn't an all time great. He absolutely was, I just think his poop probably stunk like everyone else's and rose petals don't fall from the heavens to his feet when he enters a room.
I don't want to derail the thread, but since you mentioned him, Larry Bird gets as big of a pass for underperforming in the playoffs as any top 10 player. I know he's someone who's impact goes beyond the boxscore, but for the clutch rep that he has, some of his playoff performances are shockingly mediocre.

1981 Finals: 15 ppg on 46%TS

1982 ECSF: 17 ppg on on 52%TS

1982 ECF: 18 ppg on 45%TS

1983 FR: 22 ppg on 50%TS

1983 ECSF: 19 ppg on 45%TS

1985 ECF: 21 ppg on 50%TS

1988 ECF: 20 ppg on 45%TS

I understand scoring wasn't his primary contribution, but that's over half a dozen series where he scored like Jamal Murray in these playoffs, and the craziest part is, I didn't use any of the series after his back injury.

Just for another example, even his two losses against the Lakers

1985: 24/9/5 on 53%TS

1987: 24/10/6 on 53%TS

Those would legitimately be the worst series of Jokic's career :lol

[highwhey]

His best one was 42/5/0 on 18/33 shooting... but they lost so that performance is shit, if we want to be consistent.

did he shoot 20% from 3pt in that game? did he play zero defense? because kobe at least played defense.

[SouBeachTalents]

did he shoot 20% from 3pt in that game? did he play zero defense? because kobe at least played defense.
In 2012? Hell nah.

[highwhey]

In 2012? Hell nah.

still played more defense than jokic last night

[hold this L]

That's dumb.

First of all this "era" thing is obviously going back to the bubble or maybe even prior to that. They were't true title contenders until last year. In the previous years they had guys out or weren't ready.

That graphic includes the year they were without Murry/MPJ facing the eventual champ Warriors. :facepalm

Secondly the Nuggets were a 1/2 seed in the last two years so there are only two possible teams they could face in the west with a top 3 seed. They weren't going to face a top seed in the first round. Duh

Last year the 2/3 seeds were Sacramento and Memphis. Do you really think Denver would have lost to either of those teams?
:oldlol:

That graph includes a grand total of 1 series out of 13, totally invalidated now. It's 8-0 and 1-4, that looks so much better now.

[tontoz]

That graph includes a grand total of 1 series out of 13, totally invalidated now. It's 8-0 and 1-4, that looks so much better now.



The Nuggets have only been title contenders for the last two years. In that time they have played 6 playoff series, not 13.

The graph includes the prior two seasons when Murray didn't even play in the playoffs, but Jokic did. That was 3 series, not 1.

It also includes the bubble when they didn't have Gordon, Jokic was fat and not a MVP calibur player.

So yeah the graphic is a joke.

[hold this L]

The Nuggets have only been title contenders for the last two years. In that time they have played 6 playoff series, not 13.

The graph includes the prior two seasons when Murray didn't even play in the playoffs, but Jokic did. That was 3 series, not 1.

It also includes the bubble when they didn't have Gordon, Jokic was fat and not a MVP calibur player.

So yeah the graphic is a joke.
Not this season, since they lost. :facepalm They had the most pathetic run to a championship last year, all 5-8th seed teams which is unheard of. He has to prove he can actually beat elite teams because so far in his career, he's yet to do it outside of the Clippers series.

Keep the cope strong though. :applause:

[tontoz]

Not this season, since they lost. :facepalm They had the most pathetic run to a championship last year, all 5-8th seed teams which is unheard of. He has to prove he can actually beat elite teams because so far in his career, he's yet to do it outside of the Clippers series.

Keep the cope strong though. :applause:


Dont be an idiot. They were absolutely contenders and were considered the favorites to win the west.

[tpols]

I don't want to derail the thread, but since you mentioned him, Larry Bird gets as big of a pass for underperforming in the playoffs as any top 10 player. I know he's someone who's impact goes beyond the boxscore, but for the clutch rep that he has, some of his playoff performances are shockingly mediocre.

1981 Finals: 15 ppg on 46%TS

1982 ECSF: 17 ppg on on 52%TS

1982 ECF: 18 ppg on 45%TS

1983 FR: 22 ppg on 50%TS

1983 ECSF: 19 ppg on 45%TS

1985 ECF: 21 ppg on 50%TS

1988 ECF: 20 ppg on 45%TS

I understand scoring wasn't his primary contribution, but that's over half a dozen series where he scored like Jamal Murray in these playoffs, and the craziest part is, I didn't use any of the series after his back injury.

Just for another example, even his two losses against the Lakers

1985: 24/9/5 on 53%TS

1987: 24/10/6 on 53%TS

Those would legitimately be the worst series of Jokic's career :lol


People think it's a joke or a meme but if you watch the tape the 80s and 90s were a joke. Guys couldn't dribble more than twice going left and everybody's long range shooting was trash. Larry Bird was one of the only ambidextrous players but he was so unathletic it wasn't even funny.

[hold this L]

Dont be an idiot. They were absolutely contenders and were considered the favorites to win the west.
I thought you meant teams they played that were contenders. Either way, you can continue coping. Jokic as of right now is nothing more than a post-season flat track bully. Any time he plays elite teams outside of the healthy Clippers in 2020, he's been folded.

Carry on crying until he proves it otherwise.

[Jasper]

starters were gased ,, their bench from a year ago was gone , and starters had to play more minutes.

[tontoz]

I thought you meant teams they played that were contenders. Either way, you can continue coping. Jokic as of right now is nothing more than a post-season flat track bully. Any time he plays elite teams outside of the healthy Clippers in 2020, he's been folded.

Carry on crying until he proves it otherwise.

I am not the one crying. Are you really that butthurt about the thread comparing Jokic to Curry? Get a grip

29/11/8 against the best defense in the league is folding?

:facepalm

[90sgoat]

I don't want to derail the thread, but since you mentioned him, Larry Bird gets as big of a pass for underperforming in the playoffs as any top 10 player. I know he's someone who's impact goes beyond the boxscore, but for the clutch rep that he has, some of his playoff performances are shockingly mediocre.


Different era back them, 20 ppg was a lot more difficult to score.

[Overdrive]

Different era back them, 20 ppg was a lot more difficult to score.

In the 80s? :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Different era back them, 20 ppg was a lot more difficult to score.

It was not.

[TheMan]

People think it's a joke or a meme but if you watch the tape the 80s and 90s were a joke. Guys couldn't dribble more than twice going left and everybody's long range shooting was trash. Larry Bird was one of the only ambidextrous players but he was so unathletic it wasn't even funny.

You're too old to have a take this trash :facepalm

[Overdrive]

You're too old to have a take this trash :facepalm

Trash takes are his speciality.

[90sgoat]

In the 80s? :lol

Go check the early 80s playoffs, I just did, Bird ws 5th with a 20 point average in 1982 playoffs.

[90sgoat]

It was not.

Playoff ppg avg:

1981: 7 players above 20 ppg
1982: 10 players above 20 ppg
1983: 12 players above 20 ppg
1984: 18 players above 20 ppg
(1985: 20 players above 20 ppg)

2021: 21 players above 20 ppg
2022: 21 players above 20 ppg
2023: 25 players above 20 ppg
2022: 22 players above 20 ppg

So yeah, the early 80s were low scoring and only mid- to late 80s changed that.

[SouBeachTalents]

Playoff ppg avg:

1981: 7 players above 20 ppg
1982: 10 players above 20 ppg
1983: 12 players above 20 ppg
1984: 18 players above 20 ppg
(1985: 20 players above 20 ppg)

2021: 21 players above 20 ppg
2022: 21 players above 20 ppg
2023: 25 players above 20 ppg
2022: 22 players above 20 ppg

So yeah, the early 80s were low scoring and only mid- to late 80s changed that.
First of all, Bird should be held to a higher standard than everyone in the 80's with the exception of Magic & Kareem, he's a 3x MVP and a consensus top 10 player. The real issue is, his production would frequently drop off from the regular season to the playoffs.

1981 RS: 21 ppg on 53%TS
1981 Finals: 15 ppg on 46%TS

1982 RS: 23 ppg on 56%TS
1982 PS: 18 ppg on 47%TS

1983 RS: 24 ppg on 56%TS
1983 PS: 21 ppg on 48%TS

1985 RS: 29 ppg 59%TS
1985 Finals: 24 ppg on 53%TS

1987 RS: 28 ppg 61%TS
1987 Finals: 24 ppg on 53%TS

1988 RS: 30 ppg on 61%TS
1988 ECF: 20 ppg on 45%TS

That is a clear trend of a steep drop off in ppg & efficiency on a nearly annual basis.

[Carbine]

First of all, Bird should be held to a higher standard than everyone in the 80's with the exception of Magic & Kareem, he's a 3x MVP and a consensus top 10 player. The real issue is, his production would frequently drop off from the regular season to the playoffs.

1981 RS: 21 ppg on 53%TS
1981 Finals: 15 ppg on 46%TS

1982 RS: 23 ppg on 56%TS
1982 PS: 18 ppg on 47%TS

1983 RS: 24 ppg on 56%TS
1983 PS: 21 ppg on 48%TS

1985 RS: 29 ppg 59%TS
1985 Finals: 24 ppg on 53%TS

1987 RS: 28 ppg 61%TS
1987 Finals: 24 ppg on 53%TS

1988 RS: 30 ppg on 61%TS
1988 ECF: 20 ppg on 45%TS

That is a clear trend of a steep drop off in ppg & efficiency on a nearly annual basis.

I think what balances it out is the fact he also had some series that were excellent. He was also a true leader, one of the best passers ever, maybe the best rebounding SF ever and the offense didn't revolve around him (he played off the ball a lot) so his inefficient scoring games could be made up for by being a big factor in other parts of the game.

[Carbine]

That doesn't mean Bird wasn't ALWAYS great. Or always good even. He had bad series (for him) just like everyone, Jordan had some off series too (for him)

[SouBeachTalents]

I think what balances it out is the fact he also had some series that were excellent. He was also a true leader, one of the best passers ever, maybe the best rebounding SF ever and the offense didn't revolve around him (he played off the ball a lot) so his inefficient scoring games could be made up for by being a big factor in other parts of the game.
I'm not even going out of my way to disparage Bird specifically, I was just responding to a post saying everyone criticizing Jokic for this series would have had a field day clowning past ATG's for some of their playoff performances, which were FAR worse than what Jokic just did. Jokic's been a remarkably consistent playoff performer thus far without even a truly bad series to his name.

[John8204]

That doesn't mean Bird wasn't ALWAYS great. Or always good even. He had bad series (for him) just like everyone, Jordan had some off series too (for him)

Bird also made the NBA or conference finals eight times in his career over Jokic two.

[j3lademaster]

Bird also made the NBA or conference finals eight times in his career over Jokic two.

Well, yeah, his team’s stacked. Not everyone has the luxury of winning in the finals averaging 15 on 46 ts. Yes, those were his finals stats in 81.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well, yeah, his team’s stacked. Not everyone has the luxury of winning in the finals averaging 15 on 46 ts. Yes, those were his finals stats in 81.
It’s amazing how having 3 HOF’ers on the team can help you make deep playoff runs consistently.

[John8204]

Well, yeah, his team’s stacked. Not everyone has the luxury of winning in the finals averaging 15 on 46 ts. Yes, those were his finals stats in 81.

With guys that didn't win elsewhere and were able to make the jump when playing with Bird.

[tontoz]

With guys that didn't win elsewhere and were able to make the jump when playing with Bird.

Dennis Johnson won a title with Seattle. Boston drafted McHale and Ainge. Not sure what you are talking about.

[j3lademaster]

With guys that didn't win elsewhere and were able to make the jump when playing with Bird.

Well, in that case Jokic’s guys weren’t able to win anywhere without him(i know kcp won in LA, but DJ won in Seattle too, just keeping it consistent). See the excuses that come out when its a player you like?

[John8204]

Dennis Johnson won a title with Seattle. Boston drafted McHale and Ainge. Not sure what you are talking about.

And was so toxic that he got moved to Phoenix. And Walton, Archibald, and Parish made the playoffs a combined 4 times before joining the Celtics

[tontoz]

And was so toxic that he got moved to Phoenix. And Walton, Archibald, and Parish made the playoffs a combined 4 times before joining the Celtics

Seattle made the finals twice with DJ and won once so he couldn't have been that toxic

Walton was MVP and also won a title :roll: so two of his teammates got rings without Bird

Parish only played 4 years in GS

[And1AllDay]

They were talking about how his "GOAT run" starts now. Talking about multiple championships like it ain't a thing. Like it was a given.

But on Any Given Sunday...

cotdamn op cookin up these bois crispyyy

[John8204]

Seattle made the finals twice with DJ and won once so he couldn't have been that toxic

Walton was MVP and also won a title :roll: so two of his teammates got rings without Bird

Parish only played 4 years in GS

The sonics traded DJ for a guy 4 years older on an expiring contract, Walton got dumped by Portland and ended up on the Clippers.

Bird won with drafted guys and throwaways which Jokic could also win with but he hasn't.

[tontoz]

The sonics traded DJ for a guy 4 years older on an expiring contract, Walton got dumped by Portland and ended up on the Clippers.

Bird won with drafted guys and throwaways which Jokic could also win with but he hasn't.


Lol Seattle fell off a cliff after DJ left. They made the finals twice with him.

Then with the Suns he made first team All NBA defense twice. And he made 1st team All NBA with the Suns but in your mind he was a throwaway?

:roll:

DJ was far more accomplished than anyone Jokic has ever played with. None of Jokic's current teammates have even made an all Star game.

[hold this L]

I am not the one crying. Are you really that butthurt about the thread comparing Jokic to Curry? Get a grip

29/11/8 against the best defense in the league is folding?

:facepalm
Who said anything about folding? Jokic had a good series but lost, it happens.

[guy]

Once an all-time great wins it all for the first time, and if he's in his prime with a good supporting cast that is also in their prime and returning for the most part, its completely reasonable to think they have the chance to repeat and possibly start a run of multiple championships. The same scenario happened with Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Steph/KD at least in terms of winning 1 or more championships after winning their first while in their prime and with a good supporting cast. Its only recently this didn't pan out with both Giannis and Jokic.

[elementally morale]

Once an all-time great wins it all for the first time, and if he's in his prime with a good supporting cast that is also in their prime and returning for the most part, its completely reasonable to think they have the chance to repeat and possibly start a run of multiple championships. The same scenario happened with Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Steph/KD at least in terms of winning 1 or more championships after winning their first while in their prime and with a good supporting cast. Its only recently this didn't pan out with both Giannis and Jokic.

The Nuggets as a team were much worse this year than last. Jokic himself was slightly worse but the rest of the players, especially the bench players were nowhere near their previous level. Had Jokic played the same brilliant basketball he did in last year's playoffs they would've had more of a chance. This year we was simply very good / great but not otherworldly. However, last year's win was a team effort (as is this year's early loss). So if we fault the rest of the team this year we have to praise them last year. All things considered it was a decent but not good enough effort. I'm looking forward to seeing what they will do next season. They need to change because the competition will be even greater. What changes they do as a team and as individuals will be interesting.

[bdonovan]

Whether most fans know it or not, they support Jokic because he 'represents them' in a game that features players that don't look like them. He is their feeling of belonging. Black fans often support him for social approval.

Jokic is a great player who is the beneficiary of the "Euro Pass" (along with Giannis, and others) getting favorable officiating, while being surrounded by a complementary set of teammates and a very well coached team. He himself deserves enormous credit for facilitating that offense. Is a high IQ player who knows how to win by making his teammates better.

That said, he is overrated as a player and only won the MVP when his stats were inflated thanks to Murray's absence. His bad nature is completely hidden by a sycophantic media. For instance he forearm shoved ANT as the last game wound down in anger. He got off scot free. Same with his injuring a player for months. Actually the victim of his assault received a fine, not him.

In the end, it's difficult to gauge ability individually and as a team, because the NBA is deciding winners and losers by how they officiate games. Perhaps they thought the Denver small market narrative is over-played and wanted to crown new big names, create the next Jordan.

Even with that said, Jokic and co didn't deserve to win. Both teams clogged the paint and when Denver needed him the most, he went 2-10 from the 3 pt line. You can't win like that when outside shooting is your primary option against a smothering defense. Jokic also got frustrated at his own teammates for turnovers he was responsible for, lacked energy for defense in the 2nd half (due to lack of conditioning), and generally could not offensively or defensively produce what his team needed.

[FultzNationRISE]

Whether most fans know it or not, they support Jokic because he 'represents them' in a game that features players that don't look like them. He is their feeling of belonging. Black fans often support him for social approval.

Jokic is a great player who is the beneficiary of the "Euro Pass" (along with Giannis, and others) getting favorable officiating, while being surrounded by a complementary set of teammates and a very well coached team. He himself deserves enormous credit for facilitating that offense. Is a high IQ player who knows how to win by making his teammates better.

That said, he is overrated as a player and only won the MVP when his stats were inflated thanks to Murray's absence. His bad nature is completely hidden by a sycophantic media. For instance he forearm shoved ANT as the last game wound down in anger. He got off scot free. Same with his injuring a player for months. Actually the victim of his assault received a fine, not him.

In the end, it's difficult to gauge ability individually and as a team, because the NBA is deciding winners and losers by how they officiate games. Perhaps they thought the Denver small market narrative is over-played and wanted to crown new big names, create the next Jordan.

Even with that said, Jokic and co didn't deserve to win. Both teams clogged the paint and when Denver needed him the most, he went 2-10 from the 3 pt line. You can't win like that when outside shooting is your primary option against a smothering defense. Jokic also got frustrated at his own teammates for turnovers he was responsible for, lacked energy for defense in the 2nd half (due to lack of conditioning), and generally could not offensively or defensively produce what his team needed.


Whether you realize it or not, everyone here thinks you are deeply mentally disturbed.

[tontoz]

Whether you realize it or not, everyone here thinks you are deeply mentally disturbed.

:oldlol:


That is the same guy who thought Markeif Morris was just trying to stop the fast break when he ran across the court to drill Jokic (down big with 2 minutes left in the 4th).

The same guy who said Draymond was totally justified for his spinning forearm which dropped Nurkic.

He definitely needs a checkup from the neck up.

[FultzNationRISE]

:oldlol:


That is the same guy who thought Markeif Morris was just trying to stop the fast break when he ran across the court to drill Jokic (down big with 2 minutes left in the 4th).

The same guy who said Draymond was totally justified for his spinning forearm which dropped Nurkic.

He definitely needs a checkup from the neck up.

He’s also authored such hits as “nba commercials are all subliminally racist” and “giannis is bleaching his skin to appear less black.”

Sadly I think hes a genuinely schizotypal.

[tontoz]

He’s also authored such hits as “nba commercials are all subliminally racist” and “giannis is bleaching his skin to appear less black.”

Sadly I think hes a genuinely schizotypal.


:oldlol:

Somehow i missed those but they are perfectly in character.

[Micku]

The Nuggets as a team were much worse this year than last. Jokic himself was slightly worse but the rest of the players, especially the bench players were nowhere near their previous level. Had Jokic played the same brilliant basketball he did in last year's playoffs they would've had more of a chance. This year we was simply very good / great but not otherworldly. However, last year's win was a team effort (as is this year's early loss). So if we fault the rest of the team this year we have to praise them last year. All things considered it was a decent but not good enough effort. I'm looking forward to seeing what they will do next season. They need to change because the competition will be even greater. What changes they do as a team and as individuals will be interesting.

They still had a shot to do it this year even with Murray not being 100% or not playing like his playoff self. It's just their shot wasn't falling. It's funny because they don't rely on the 3pt shot, but definitely needed it against the Minny series. They should get better bench players or hope their young guys develop next year. They have enough to win it. The next year should be tougher than this year.