Shaq in 1997 western conference finals

[90sgoat]

22 ppg.

4-1 Jazz.

Just saying, even the most dominant center ever couldn't get it done without help.

[Nowoco]

Mainly because the Lakers had shot happy pass second chucker Van Exel and rookie Derek Fisher at point.

Plus Shaq was just coming back from a knee injury.

[Im Still Ballin]

Ostertag and Malone were big/strong enough to make him work for it. Teams that had the size to throw at Shaq and the pick-and-roll shooting to abuse his lazy ball screen defense like Utah, Sacramento, and Portland matched up best.

[Reggie43]

We gonna act like the 2000 Finals didnt happen?

[SouBeachTalents]

We gonna act like the 2000 Finals didnt happen?
What kind of dumb response is this :lol

[Reggie43]

What kind of dumb response is this :lol

Learn to read. He said he couldnt get it done without help yet in the 2000 Finals Shaq won with his sidekick doing 15.6ppg on 37% fg shooting

[Kblaze8855]

While your point is fine it makes me want to point out why I sometimes hate playoff series numbers. Shaq had 11 while +19 in only 20 minutes of a blowout win where Malone was 2-20 and Stockton was 0-6 somehow. Without that one game(a win) he’s at 25/11 for the series. Not great for him but not point making awful.

A lot of series with shitty numbers are like that. One injury game or limited PT or shots in a blowout. Like Bird in 81. People post his 15ppg like he didn’t have 8 and 12 point games they took 30 and 40 point leads in where he stopped trying to score.

And it really goes for everyone. Kobe has series like that. Lebron. Bird. Jordan. 20 weird minutes changes the whole perception of a playoff run even if it’s a massive W.

[90sgoat]

Learn to read. He said he couldnt get it done without help yet in the 2000 Finals Shaq won with his sidekick doing 15.6ppg on 37% fg shooting

Well, Kobe was not the only sidekick in 2000.

Of the top of my head:

Ron Harper
Rick Fox
Glenn Rice
Robbert Horry

That's a pretty damn strong supporting cast, even without Kobe. Glenn Rice in particular was big time and still in his prime.

[90sgoat]

Without that one game(a win) he’s at 25/11 for the series. Not great for him but not point making awful

The point is more that even the most dominant center ever, couldn't just go off and average 40 ppg if needed. It takes a team. Jokic can't just go off and do that either.

Jordan could do that and that's why he is GOAT.

[SouBeachTalents]

The point is more that even the most dominant center ever, couldn't just go off and average 40 ppg if needed. It takes a team. Jokic can't just go off and do that either.

Jordan could do that and that's why he is GOAT.
Even Jordan couldn't win until he had an elite team and the powers from the 80's were either extinct or on their last legs. Most of the time the cream rises to the top and the elite players win the title, but so often winning a championship comes down to circumstances and lucky breaks that are out of a players control, which is why I don't like the way fans judge players so heavily on them and team success in general.

[3ba11]

Without that one game(a win) he’s at 25/11 for the series. Not great for him but not point making awful.

A lot of series with shitty numbers are like that. One injury game or limited PT or shots in a blowout. Like Bird in 81. People post his 15ppg like he didn’t have 8 and 12 point games they took 30 and 40 point leads in where he stopped trying to score.

And it really goes for everyone. Kobe has series like that. Lebron. Bird. Jordan. 20 weird minutes changes the whole perception of a playoff run even if it’s a massive W.




Jordan's low in a series was 27 ppg, so no... that doesn't compare to any of the other examples you gave

people just like to throw Jordan in there for cumbaya purposes.. but the reality is that he had a perfect career because he's the only guy that really had to BUILD something, including Pippen... he wasn't handed ready-made stars, teams or franchises like everyone else was... Bird went to the GOAT franchise at the time and still today, while Magic was handed Kareem and Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite for 6 straight years (2011-2016)... So everyone that is compared to Jordan was infact coddled with tremendous support and didn't have to build teammates, teams or franchises like MJ did - and of course MJ never lost with homecourt, or with good teams (1 or 2 seeds), or with favored talent (preseason favorites), while everyone else lost many times in each of these scenarios... The instant MJ got 1 all-star teammate, he didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years (90-98'), while putting up goat production rates the entire time and playing goat defense... No one is close to him

[Reggie43]

Well, Kobe was not the only sidekick in 2000.

Of the top of my head:

Ron Harper
Rick Fox
Glenn Rice
Robbert Horry

That's a pretty damn strong supporting cast, even without Kobe. Glenn Rice in particular was big time and still in his prime.

I get how you would think Rice was still decent at that time but he was way past his prime scoring just 11ppg same with Harper while Horry and Fox where at 9 and 7ppg.

High IQ players for sure but that type of production is barely decent even with a young Kobe. There is a reason Shaq needed to average almost 40ppg just to win his first ring.

[90sgoat]

I get how you would think Rice was still decent at that time but he was way past his prime scoring just 11ppg same with Harper while Horry and Fox where at 9 and 7ppg.

High IQ players for sure but that type of production is barely decent even with a young Kobe. There is a reason Shaq needed to average almost 40ppg just to win his first ring.

Rice scored 15ppg in the regular season (just looked it up).

One season removed from getting MVP votes.

You might be thinking off 2001.

[warriorfan]

Rice scored 15ppg in the regular season (just looked it up).

One season removed from getting MVP votes.

You might be thinking off 2001.

I would add that while I don’t know what the math is exactly but with a rough estimation I would say scoring 15 points a game in 2000 is probably similar to scoring to close to 20 ppg in todays nba.

[Reggie43]

Rice scored 15ppg in the regular season (just looked it up).

One season removed from getting MVP votes.

You might be thinking off 2001.

But we were talking about a single series and in those Finals Rice was only good for 11ppg just like Shaq was only good for 22ppg in 97 wcf

[Kblaze8855]

Jordan's low in a series was 27 ppg, so no... that doesn't compare to any of the other examples you gave



Ive read about Jordan shooting like shit vs the Knicks in that must win game in 93 and it’s rarely mentioned we were up like 20 early and it never became a game. But 3-18 looks real bad even if it’s of no consequence and largely during a blowout.

A whole lot of series average skewing things happen that don’t matter nearly as much as they change the averages and points people use down the line.

[JBSptfn]

22 ppg.

4-1 Jazz.

Just saying, even the most dominant center ever couldn't get it done without help.

That was the Western Semifinals, not the Finals.

[gengiskhan]

22 ppg.

4-1 Jazz.

Just saying, even the most dominant center ever couldn't get it done without help.

BS.

Kobe "choked". plain and simple.

Just like Kobe choked and sabotaged 2004 Finals.

Just like Kobe choked away 2008 NBA Finals despite being reigning season MVP.

If we are so tough on LBJ for choking away 2007 NBA Finals and 2011 NBA Finals......Lets be atleast fair and consistent.


BUT.....BUT......BUT....!!!

but our beloved Mamba's Circumcised head was only 18 YO. he is allowed to shoot 4 air balls!

well. lets be fair and consistent.......AGAIN!.

so was 20 YO Magic as a rookie in his first NBA Finals but did not choke and won FMVP.

so was some Freshman named Mike Jordan 18 YO in NCAA final four and was clutch and won Championship.

Just think how easily 18 YO MJ could've choked in 1982 Final Four vs Phi Slama Jama Clyde and Hakeem and Ewing!... all showed up in 1982 final four.

18 YO Freshman Mike Jordan could've followed his then sophomore captain James Worthy who choked away 1981 NCAA Finals to Zeke and Bobby Knight.

[SATAN]

Ive read about Jordan shooting like shit vs the Knicks in that must win game in 93 and it’s rarely mentioned we were up like 20 early and it never became a game. But 3-18



:roll::roll::roll::facepalm

[gengiskhan]

Ive read about Jordan shooting like shit vs the Knicks in that must win game in 93 and itÂ’s rarely mentioned we were up like 20 early and it never became a game. But 3-18 looks real bad even if itÂ’s of no consequence and largely during a blowout.

A whole lot of series average skewing things happen that donÂ’t matter nearly as much as they change the averages and points people use down the line.

I remember seeing that game live. yes. MJ had a bad day. look at it in the whole context.

1993 NYK were the best team in the NBA. favorites to win a ring. 1993 Rodman also broke 1993 MJs wrist in a very physical reg season game. I remember that vividly. 1993 Cavs re-injured 1993 Jordan's wrist injury in ECSF. He had one of the low scoring game there too probably Game 2 of ECSF.

I remember game 2 at MSG. MJ had a bit awkward fall in game 2 early 4th. some re-aggrevation of wrist as he fell on it. But he never discloses injuries to anyone to not give opposition like physical NYK with excellent defense an upper hand.

3/18 may look bad. and it is. 1993 NYK were the best defensive team in the NBA. very physical. very quick on lateral defensive movements. Starks in his peak prime defensively. MJ knowing his wrist is acting up, he had tons of FTs. Physical knicks also fell into the trap of fouling MJ. I remember that game on NBC. MJ kept baiting knicks double triple teams. picking up easy assists. as pippen was left 1-on-1 and had a very good game.

But remember. 30 yrs old MJ was in the peak. if there was ever a game where MJ should've had a career low, single digit playoff game scoring wise. this was it. no more than 7-9 pts max. How well MJ played this game by inciting triple team. getting to FT line. collecting easy points and dishing easy assist is a clinic in itself. see that game again if you can. pippen, pax, bj collected some easiest points.

defensively MJ pissed off doc and starks big time. starks got so mad. he kicked the ball into crowd got kicked out I believe. :lol:oldlol:

My point is. Jordan never needed a ball in his hands to win the game. If he had an off night. His defense in his peak prime was so tenacious and suffocating. many times opponents forgot. 1993 MJ was steals leader and DPOY runner-up only to Hakeem at age 30. time and time again he turned it up. like 1993 ECSF vs Cavs and 1993 ECF against NYKs.

1993 finals vs Suns. He did not needed it. so went crazy offensively. but when he turned it on. Both Dan and Ainge were pissed off. :lol
A skill that LBJ and Kobe lack.

[tpols]

The Jazz swept Shaq in 1998 as well 4-0.

Utah opened the series up with a 35 point blowout win with Shaq totally shitting the bed. He shot 6/16 from the field, 7/16 from the line, had 7 TOVs, and was a game worst -33 in plus minus. BIG trash.

Utah basically brutalized him in the PnR, which wouldn't bode well for a transplant to today's game.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Jazz swept Shaq in 1998 as well 4-0.

Utah opened the series up with a 35 point blowout win with Shaq totally shitting the bed. He shot 6/16 from the field, 7/16 from the line, had 7 TOVs, and was a game worst -33 in plus minus. BIG trash.

Utah basically brutalized him in the PnR, which wouldn't bode well for a transplant to today's game.
He averaged 36/10 the rest of the series :lol Compare that to his 3 "all-star" teammates

Jones: 15 ppg on 52%TS
Brickbe: 10 ppg on 48%TS
Van Exel: 10 ppg on 37%TS

[3ba11]

22 ppg.

4-1 Jazz.

Just saying, even the most dominant center ever couldn't get it done without help.


So Pippen's peak capability is a problem?.. that isn't good?

it isn't good performance period for a leading guy, let alone a good PEAK capability? is the low peak capability why Shaq said Pippen wasn't on scouting report? (system player, transition player)

[tpols]

He averaged 36/10 the rest of the series :lol Compare that to his 3 "all-star" teammates

Jones: 15 ppg on 52%TS
Brickbe: 10 ppg on 48%TS
Van Exel: 10 ppg on 37%TS

That Game 1 set the tone. You don't lose by 35 back then without being demoralized. That's like losing by 50 today.