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View Full Version : If Kyrie makes the Finals without Lebron, it ruins Lebron's career and goat case



3ba11
05-25-2024, 09:59 PM
Career Finals

Lebron.......... 28 ppg
Kyrie............. 28 ppg


And Lebron always needed 2 star teammates to win as 1st option

ImKobe
05-25-2024, 11:36 PM
Does it? I feel like it just validates Kyrie more than anything. Lebron won with 3 different types of co-stars in Wade, Kyrie & AD.

1987_Lakers
05-26-2024, 12:00 AM
It proves LeBron-Luka ball is the way to go.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 01:15 AM
Does it? I feel like it just validates Kyrie more than anything. Lebron won with 3 different types of co-stars in Wade, Kyrie & AD.


Curry won 3 chips in 4 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, or Kobe and MJ 3-peated, while Lebron never had a stretch where he mostly won with a cast and mostly lost with every cast.. He's only proven that he mostly loses, regardless of cast.

So when you brag that Lebron won with 3 different types of co-stars, you're misguided because Lebron underachieved with 3 different types of co-stars by never having a stretch of mostly winning with any cast, while also losing with favored talent such as preseason favorites, homecourt advantage or 2 all-star teammates... Lebron was literally destroyed with each co-star, such as record loss or sweep loss.

So when did winning once and then getting demolished every other year become a goat-caliber and something to brag about/.. I's amazing

3ba11
05-26-2024, 01:20 AM
It proves LeBron-Luka ball is the way to go.


No that brand mostly loses on the championship level because Magic/Lebron are 9-10 in the Finals - if those guys can't make the brand a winner, than no one can.. sorry Luka... Luka will get taught the same brand of ball lesson by an expert jumpshooter 9tatum0 that Magic and Lebron were taught by Bird and Curry.

ShawkFactory
05-26-2024, 01:21 AM
Yea we’ve all been waiting for this pivot. Shit on Luka for years and when it looks like he has a real shot we’ll go the other direction.

At least you got expert jump shooter Tatum still alive.

RRR3
05-26-2024, 01:30 AM
No that brand mostly loses on the championship level because Magic/Lebron are 9-10 in the Finals - if those guys can't make the brand a winner, than no one can.. sorry Luka... Luka will get taught the same brand of ball lesson by an expert jumpshooter 9tatum0 that Magic and Lebron were taught by Bird and Curry.
Magic beat Bird head to head. You don’t even know NBA history.

NBAGOAT
05-26-2024, 01:36 AM
Curry won 3 chips in 4 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, or Kobe and MJ 3-peated, while Lebron never had a stretch where he mostly won with a cast and mostly lost with every cast.. He's only proven that he mostly loses, regardless of cast.

So when you brag that Lebron won with 3 different types of co-stars, you're misguided because Lebron underachieved with 3 different types of co-stars by never having a stretch of mostly winning with any cast, while also losing with favored talent such as preseason favorites, homecourt advantage or 2 all-star teammates... Lebron was literally destroyed with each co-star, such as record loss or sweep loss.

So when did winning once and then getting demolished every other year become a goat-caliber and something to brag about/.. I's amazing

Curry’s core changed. He got kd the last 2 years. Better than lebrons co stars true also for Kobe. Duncan played in a big 3 for 2/3 rings

3ba11
05-26-2024, 01:51 AM
Yea we’ve all been waiting for this pivot. Shit on Luka for years and when it looks like he has a real shot we’ll go the other direction.

At least you got expert jump shooter Tatum still alive.


Luka made it because he was facing ball-dominators like himself such as SGA or Ant... But now he'll face an expert jumpshooter (tatum) and lose, just like I say... How can you not see that this all works out to back up my theories?.. I made a thread earlier about how expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs win most of the chips, and I included Tatum in there as the 2024 champ

3ba11
05-26-2024, 01:55 AM
Curry’s core changed. He got kd the last 2 years. Better than lebrons co stars true also for Kobe. Duncan played in a big 3 for 2/3 rings


21 years confirms that Lebron mostly loses, regardless of cast, and he mostly loses via record loss, sweep loss or upset loss.. he's actually the biggest loser in NBA history when we consider that he has worst championship record ever and also he has the most bad losses of anyone ever (sweep loss, record loss, upset loss, loss with 2 all-star teammates, losses with preseason favorites, losses with 1 or 2 seed, etc, etc, etc.. chokes like 2011 or meltdown like 2010)

3ba11
05-26-2024, 01:57 AM
.
Thread cliffs


1) Lebron needed teammates that made the Finals without him (Wade, Kyrie), or he needed to be 2nd option to AD (AD led Lakers in scoring for 2020 RS & PO)

2) Lebron never won a title as 1st option without 2 perennial all-stars as teammates and sidekicks that made the Finals without him.,

plowking
05-26-2024, 04:04 AM
Imagine thinking about LeBron this much.

Jesus. Dude is like 40 and done. Find other shit to do.

John8204
05-26-2024, 04:20 AM
Rodman - won two chips without Jordan
Harper - won a ring without Jordan
Horace - won a ring without Jordan
Kerr - won two chips without Jordan
Pippen - would have won a ring if the Refs weren't on the take

Overdrive
05-26-2024, 04:23 AM
.
2) Lebron never won a title as 1st option without 2 perennial all-stars as teammates and sidekicks that made the Finals without him.,

When did Chris Bosh make the finals without Lebron?

Axe
05-26-2024, 06:25 AM
Rodman - won two chips without Jordan
Harper - won a ring without Jordan
Horace - won a ring without Jordan
Kerr - won two chips without Jordan
Pippen - would have won a ring if the Refs weren't on the take
Kobe - never won the nba finals without derek fisher while having lesser trips there than him

Axe
05-26-2024, 06:25 AM
When did Chris Bosh make the finals without Lebron?
:yaohappy:

/thread

Da_Realist
05-26-2024, 08:58 AM
What GOAT case?

ShawkFactory
05-26-2024, 09:45 AM
Luka made it because he was facing ball-dominators like himself such as SGA or Ant... But now he'll face an expert jumpshooter (tatum) and lose, just like I say... How can you not see that this all works out to back up my theories?.. I made a thread earlier about how expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs win most of the chips, and I included Tatum in there as the 2024 champ

Nah you just attribute your theories to everything that happens. It’s an easy thing to do.

Like anyone else, you’ll be right about half the time. When you are, it’s “see my theory checks out!” When you’re wrong it’s goalpost moving time. Like a coward :lol

StrongLurk
05-26-2024, 11:12 AM
Is OP really 3ball? Every single post/thread 3ball has made in the last few months is wrong. Like literally every thread and post. Usually he gets 1 out of every 20 threads correct, but he's missing on everything recently.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 11:13 AM
Nah you just attribute your theories to everything that happens. It’s an easy thing to do.

Like anyone else, you’ll be right about half the time. When you are, it’s “see my theory checks out!” When you’re wrong it’s goalpost moving time. Like a coward :lol


I was being nice by calling them "theories"

It's literally the historical record that ball-dominators like Lebron mostly lose, regardless of cast

luka will be the same way - he'll get destroyed in the Finals by an expert jumpshooter or fundamental big just like Lebron was destroyed by Dirk, Duncan, and Curry.

ImKobe
05-26-2024, 11:20 AM
I was being nice by calling them "theories"

It's literally the historical record that ball-dominators like Lebron mostly lose, regardless of cast

luka will be the same way - he'll get destroyed in the Finals by an expert jumpshooter or fundamental big just like Lebron was destroyed by Dirk, Duncan, and Curry.

You know Luka is more of an expert jump shooter than Tatum, right? He's a career 45.6% shooter from 10-16 and 40.6% shooter on long 2s and has developed into a good volume 3PT shooter as well, and he actually shoots mid-range shots at a decent volume, unlike most superstars.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 11:26 AM
You know Luka is more of an expert jump shooter than Tatum, right? He's a career 45.6% shooter from 10-16 and 40.6% shooter on long 2s and has developed into a good volume 3PT shooter as well, and he actually shoots mid-range shots at a decent volume, unlike most superstars.


Can he live off a double pin down?

I rest my case

Luka is a ball-dominator, which isn't an expert jumpshooter..

Tatum routinely catches the ball at the elbow and squares up against his man from the triple-threat - then he just pops a jumper without even dribbling - that's expert jumpshooting..

Ball-dominant jumpshooting isn't expert jumpshooting and yields weaker chemistry - we'll see it first hand in this year's Finals.. I'll be watching this year

1987_Lakers
05-26-2024, 11:28 AM
Can he live off a double pin down?

I rest my case

Luka is a ball-dominator, which isn't an expert jumpshooter..

Tatum routinely catches the ball at the elbow and squares up against his man from the triple-threat - then he just pops a jumper without even dribbling - that's expert jumpshooting..

Ball-dominant jumpshooting isn't expert jumpshooting and yields weaker chemistry - we'll see it first hand in this year's Finals.. I'll be watching this year

Celtics will win, but only because they have more talent.

Just how "ball-dominant" Magic went 2-1 against "expert jump shooter" Bird in the Finals. Magic usually had a bit more talent around him.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 11:32 AM
When did Chris Bosh make the finals without Lebron?


Bosh wasn't his sidekick... Wade and Kyrie were the sidekicks and they made the Finals without Lebron,

so for Lebron to win as the 1st option, he needs a sidekick that made the Finals without him and he also needs 2 perennial all-stars as teammates.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 11:36 AM
Celtics will win, but only because they have more talent.

Just how "ball-dominant" Magic went 2-1 against "expert jump shooter" Bird in the Finals. Magic usually had a bit more talent around him.


Luka's ball-domination produced a bunch of upheavals with Porzingas, Brunson and now Kyrie, while Tatum's expert jumpshooting produced great chemistry and stable chemistry that didn't require upheavals..

So do the Celtics really have more talent, or did they just develop great chemistry over time and have stable chemistry due to Tatum's expert jumpshooting skillset?

I think it's the latter - Tatum's skillset allows long-standing chemistry just like Curry, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Dirk and other expert jumpshooters before him.. Otoh, the ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka need upheavals every few years because their skillset lacks great chemistry.

1987_Lakers
05-26-2024, 11:37 AM
The funny thing is, LeBron's best overall sidekick while they were winning chips was AD and he never even made it past the 2nd round without him.

1987_Lakers
05-26-2024, 11:38 AM
So do the Celtics really have more talent, or did they just develop great chemistry over time and have stable chemistry due to Tatum's expert jumpshooting skillset?

They have more talent. That is obvious to everyone who knows ball.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 11:41 AM
The funny thing is, LeBron's best overall sidekick while they were winning chips was AD and he never even made it past the 2nd round without him.


Wade was the best sidekick that dominated the 2011 Playoffs and Finals, but Lebron simply couldn't fit with Wade due to Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance and lack of expert jumpshooting skill.

Btw, AD won a game off the 2018 Warriors with zero help, while Lebron was blown away by record amount - this shows that AD was a better 2-way player than Lebron for a while now.. lebron hasn't been all-defense since 2014.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 11:43 AM
They have more talent. That is obvious to everyone who knows ball.


I disagree... Kyrie and Brown are comparable - Kyrie has the far better resume and accomplishments.

After that, Luka has a bunch of really great role players and so do the Celtics...

I think it's extremely even but Tatum will win due to superior chemistry that results from his skillset, while the Mavs are saddled with a brand of ball that has proven to underachieve in the long run (bron/luka-ball), especially on the Finals level

1987_Lakers
05-26-2024, 11:50 AM
Wade was the best sidekick that dominated the 2011 Playoffs and Finals, but Lebron simply couldn't fit with Wade due to Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance and lack of expert jumpshooting skill.

Btw, AD won a game off the 2018 Warriors with zero help, while Lebron was blown away by record amount - this shows that AD was a better 2-way player than Lebron for a while now.. lebron hasn't been all-defense since 2014.

Wade was not the best sidekick while they were winning chips, he was actually the worst if you just include their 2013 run. He wasn't even top 10 in 2012, probably has a discussion for it. AD was his best sidekick in 2020.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 11:52 AM
Btw, we also know HOW the Mavs will lose the Finals - they will lose 3 straight games to lose the series once the Celtics solve Luka-ball the same way opponents solved Bron-ball - Bron lost 3 straight games to lose nearly every series that he lost, as opponents figured out bron-ball and couldn't lose thereafter.

3ba11
05-26-2024, 12:00 PM
Wade was not the best sidekick while they were winning chips, he was actually the worst if you just include their 2013 run. He wasn't even top 10 in 2012, probably has a discussion for it. AD was his best sidekick in 2020.


AD was arguably not the sidekick in 2020, since he led the Lakers in scoring for the regular season and playoffs, while also leading the entire league for the playoffs and dominating Jokic in the "real" Finals.

Since AD was arguably the 1st option in 2020, your argument fails..

Of course, I've always believed that Lebron's ring count should be reduced by the ones that he choked away, so I include 2011 when discussing his ring count.

ShawkFactory
05-26-2024, 12:09 PM
Btw, we also know HOW the Mavs will lose the Finals - they will lose 3 straight games to lose the series once the Celtics solve Luka-ball the same way opponents solved Bron-ball - Bron lost 3 straight games to lose nearly every series that he lost, as opponents figured out bron-ball and couldn't lose thereafter.

See this is what I’m alluding to with your predictions. The Celtics very well might win the series should Dallas hold on against Minny. And if so, you’ll claim to be this genius.

When in reality you’ll have made the exact same prediction for the same reasons on 3 occasions and been right once.

Hey Yo
05-26-2024, 12:15 PM
I disagree... Kyrie and Brown are comparable - Kyrie has the far better resume and accomplishments.

After that, Luka has a bunch of really great role players and so do the Celtics...

I think it's extremely even but Tatum will win due to superior chemistry that results from his skillset, while the Mavs are saddled with a brand of ball that has proven to underachieve in the long run (bron/luka-ball), especially on the Finals level
What has Kyrie accomplished without James? Has he lead a team to the ECF like Brown has?

Duffy Pratt
05-26-2024, 02:51 PM
I was being nice by calling them "theories"

It's literally the historical record that ball-dominators like Lebron mostly lose, regardless of cast.

What you say here happens to be true, but again not for the reason you say. Almost everyone in NBA history mostly loses. That includes ball-dominators, and it also includes expert jump shooters. Jordan played 15 seasons. He mostly lost.

There are only a handful of people who have played in the NBA and mostly won. They all played with Bill Russell or George Mikan. Everyone else mostly lost.

90sgoat
05-26-2024, 04:03 PM
Btw, we also know HOW the Mavs will lose the Finals - they will lose 3 straight games to lose the series once the Celtics solve Luka-ball the same way opponents solved Bron-ball - Bron lost 3 straight games to lose nearly every series that he lost, as opponents figured out bron-ball and couldn't lose thereafter.

Celtics won't solve Luka ball.

Celtics are a 3 point chucking team, but instead of Curry and Klay, they have Brown and Tatum, both have not been shooting well this postseason. They also don't move like Warriors at all, but just drive and kick.

You also seem to think Tatum is a catch and shoot player, while he is more like a slow and prodding Kawhi, except he doesn't have the midrange.

ImKobe
05-26-2024, 11:53 PM
The funny thing is, LeBron's best overall sidekick while they were winning chips was AD and he never even made it past the 2nd round without him.

Bron missed the Playoffs and lost in the 1st round multiple times with AD so what's his excuse?

SouBeachTalents
05-26-2024, 11:57 PM
Bron missed the Playoffs and lost in the 1st round multiple times with AD so what's his excuse?
kawhileonard2 level post.

jlip
05-27-2024, 12:01 AM
So just "making the finals" is now considered an accomplishment again?

SouBeachTalents
05-27-2024, 12:03 AM
So just "making the finals" is now considered an accomplishment again?
Lmao, I didn't even think about that angle. Or doing it as your teams 2nd leading scorer. Can't wait to see OP try to weasel his way out of this one :lol

ImKobe
05-27-2024, 12:07 AM
Lmao, I didn't even think about that angle. Or doing it as your teams 2nd leading scorer. Can't wait to see OP try to weasel his way out of this one :lol

OP is using Lebron stan logic against them. Imagine we tried to argue Jerry West as one of the top 5 GOATs because he made the Finals 9 times in a weak ass Conference. That's what Bran stans used to make his case for years here. Like great, we're supposed to give you points for beating mediocre ass teams with 0 1st team All-NBA players on the road to another Finals blowout loss.

Ironically enough, Lebron has the same record in the Finals as Jerry West, who won 1 out of his 9 series with a 22 - 33 overall record.

SouBeachTalents
05-27-2024, 12:10 AM
OP is using Lebron stan logic against them. Imagine we tried to argue Jerry West as one of the top 5 GOATs because he made the Finals 9 times in a weak ass Conference. That's what Bran stans used to make his case for years here. Like great, we're supposed to give you points for beating mediocre ass teams with 0 1st team All-NBA players on the road to another Finals blowout loss.

Ironically enough, Lebron has the same record in the Finals as Jerry West, who won 1 out of his 9 series with a 22 - 33 overall record.
He also has double Kobe's FMVP count.

ShawkFactory
05-27-2024, 09:42 AM
OP is using Lebron stan logic against them. Imagine we tried to argue Jerry West as one of the top 5 GOATs because he made the Finals 9 times in a weak ass Conference. That's what Bran stans used to make his case for years here. Like great, we're supposed to give you points for beating mediocre ass teams with 0 1st team All-NBA players on the road to another Finals blowout loss.

Ironically enough, Lebron has the same record in the Finals as Jerry West, who won 1 out of his 9 series with a 22 - 33 overall record.

Not really. He’s arguing that what someone does (Kyrie in this case) changes what another person did.

It blatantly doesn’t track.

ImKobe
05-27-2024, 09:48 AM
Not really. He’s arguing that what someone does (Kyrie in this case) changes what another person did.

It blatantly doesn’t track.

Well, people use Pippen's '94 season to discredit MJ's greatness so it's fair game for 3Ball to do the same with Kyrie, right? And Bron stans for years celebrated whenever Kyrie got injured and/or his team lost early in the Playoffs like it somehow made Lebron's 2016 title matter more because Irving had no Playoff success without him lol.

Plenty of "Kyrie can't win without Lebron" and "Lebron made Kyrie" posts have been made here over the years. Certain posters on their alts still do the classic "Lebron won with 0 all-stars in 2016" shit too.

1987_Lakers
05-27-2024, 09:49 AM
He also has double Kobe's FMVP count.

:roll:

ShawkFactory
05-27-2024, 10:10 AM
Well, people use Pippen's '94 season to discredit MJ's greatness so it's fair game for 3Ball to do the same with Kyrie, right? And Bron stans for years celebrated whenever Kyrie got injured and/or his team lost early in the Playoffs like it somehow made Lebron's 2016 title matter more because Irving had no Playoff success without him lol.

Plenty of "Kyrie can't win without Lebron" and "Lebron made Kyrie" posts have been made here over the years. Certain posters on their alts still do the classic "Lebron won with 0 all-stars in 2016" shit too.

So? Like 3ball, they’re full of shit.

ImKobe
05-27-2024, 10:15 AM
So? Like 3ball, they’re full of shit.

3Ball at least puts effort into his posts. All those Bran groupies deserve to get shit on with how much shit they've talked here over the years. They are partly to blame as to why ISH died out as much as it did. Most of the actual basketball discourse was overshadowed by those stan wars & it drove people away.

1987_Lakers
05-27-2024, 10:17 AM
3Ball at least puts effort into his posts. All those Bran groupies deserve to get shit on with how much shit they've talked here over the years. They are partly to blame as to why ISH died out as much as it did. Most of the actual basketball discourse was overshadowed by those stan wars & it drove people away.

You mean he doubles down on his stupidity.

ShawkFactory
05-27-2024, 10:17 AM
3Ball at least puts effort into his posts. All those Bran groupies deserve to get shit on with how much shit they've talked here over the years. They are partly to blame as to why ISH died out as much as it did. Most of the actual basketball discourse was overshadowed by those stan wars & it drove people away.

Yea. To me that makes the full-of-shitness even weirder but whatever.

ArbitraryWater
05-27-2024, 10:19 AM
Youre telling me MJs goat case was 1 bad Hue Hollins call away from being gone?

Wardell Curry
05-27-2024, 10:31 AM
3Ball at least puts effort into his posts. All those Bran groupies deserve to get shit on with how much shit they've talked here over the years. They are partly to blame as to why ISH died out as much as it did. Most of the actual basketball discourse was overshadowed by those stan wars & it drove people away.

ISH died off for a few reasons, none of which have anything to do with LeBron's irrational fans. Kobe had just as many back in the early 2000s and there were days you would come to this site and 100% of the first page topics would involve Kobe, even though he was never as good as LeBron ended up being.

vBulletin across the board took a nosedive along with almost all individual topic specific forums. Reddit became immensely popular as a centralized site for these types of mid to long format discussions. Also this place never adopted a mobile format which is the primary way that people now participate in online communication.

And most low effort low IQ trolling moved to twitter, which is what most online sports discussion has been for a long time.