Massive double standard identified on FS1

[3ba11]

KAT was completely DESTROYED by Broussard and Nick Wright for scoring less than 18 in half the playoff games thus far, except Pippen averaged less than 18 for entire title runs with worst-ever shooting splits for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG (96' and 98').. (the clip where Nick Wright destroys KAT over 18 points is here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbveBhdSCqc&t=18m24s))

In addition to averaging under 18 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, Pippen had less than 18 points in half the games of the is 92' and 93' title runs.. Small forwards like X-Man, Dominique, Schrempf, and Juwan Howard destroyed Pippen, while KAT was credited with winning Game 7 against Denver and making Jokic work harder than normal.

So can you see how Pippen is praised because MJ dragged that crap to titles, while KAT plays better than Pippen but is destroyed for it because Ant can't drag it to titles??... Pippen never played above a peak Iguodala or Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. Ultimately, since no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen, he's the most overrated player of all-time..

Cowherd says that Ant "just needs his Pippen", but he already has his Pippen because the "pippen" is the weak sidekick production that must be dragged to titles.. See Kobe, Curry or MJ for successful examples of this.

[RRR3]

Except you said it's way easier to get stats today, so Pippen's stats would get a massive boost in this era by your own logic :confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

How has KAT played better than Pippen again? Just curious.

[Wardell Curry]

Except you said it's way easier to get stats today, so Pippen's stats would get a massive boost in this era by your own logic :confusedshrug:

Don't use OP's words against him. Just believe whatever he says, even when he contradicts himself. Just assume whatever he is saying in the moment is truth.

[sd3035]

I kind of agree. Pippen being the Batman of his team should have put up a bit better numbers

[3ba11]

Except you said it's way easier to get stats today, so Pippen's stats would get a massive boost in this era by your own logic :confusedshrug:


that's for shooters or great iso players, which Pippen is neither - he's just a dunker offensively and historic bricklayer (worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - he did this twice in 96' and 98', while having below-league-average TS for every year of his playoff career except when he was 80th option in Portland with no burden, or 89' when he also had no burden.... and also 91' - otherwise he was below league-average TS for every year of playoff career)

[SATAN]

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[sdot_thadon]

Because Pippens scoring numbers increased into the playoffs before the 2nd 3peat and Towns declines in the playoffs.

[3ba11]

Because Pippens scoring numbers increased into the playoffs before the 2nd 3peat and Towns declines in the playoffs.


They were talking about scoring less than 18 points for 7 of 15 playoff games - that was the statistic cited as the reason KAT wasn't playing well.

By that standard, Pippen did this for the 92', 93' and 96-98' runs - he averaged less than 18 for the entire 96-98' Playoffs on worst-ever shooting splits in 96' and 98'...

And this means the worst shooting splits for ANY playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG, not just title runs - the worst efficiency of ANY playoff run in the history of 3-pointer basketball.

[ImKobe]

Pippen was injured in '96 and '98. He had a legitimate excuse.

[3ba11]

Pippen was injured in '96 and '98. He had a legitimate excuse.


Pippen scored less than 18 in half the playoff games for 92', 93', and 97' too, with horrible efficiency.

He actually shot 0% on threes and 59% from the line in the 93' Finals (46.9 TS), so this performance coupled with his 15 on 33% against Dominique in the 1st Round yielded 50 TS overall for the 93' Playoffs and worst-ever PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP for a winning sidekick.

Infact, Pippen's true shooting in the playoffs was below league average for every year of his career except when he had no burden in 89' or Portland.. 91' was the only legit year where he managed to shoot league average TS in the playoffs.

So injuries can't be an excuse when his below-average shooting happens every year.. In addition to his historic bricklaying and lane-clogging, Pippen' peak capability was only 20 ppg of transition or flow points, so he wasn't on scouting reports according to Shaq.. This forced MJ to carry the scoring load (face max defensive attention).

[Da_Realist]

Cowherd says that Ant "just needs his Pippen", but he already has his Pippen because the "pippen" is the weak sidekick production that must be dragged to titles.. See Kobe, Curry or MJ for successful examples of this.

Cowherd is a joke. His narrative is "Jordan was not that special. His environment created him. All we need is to create similar environment around another athletic wing player and we'll see another Jordan."

Same assumption fueling the narrative around LeBron too. "LeBron's better or just as good. He just needs the right environment to prove it." Which is why everyone is ok with LeBron hopping from team to team and having 1000 teammates traded and 10 coaches fired. They want to find the "perfect" environment so we can finally see LeBron fulfill the destiny they are so desperate to believe.

[sdot_thadon]

They were talking about scoring less than 18 points for 7 of 15 playoff games - that was the statistic cited as the reason KAT wasn't playing well.

By that standard, Pippen did this for the 92', 93' and 96-98' runs - he averaged less than 18 for the entire 96-98' Playoffs on worst-ever shooting splits in 96' and 98'...

And this means the worst shooting splits for ANY playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG, not just title runs - the worst efficiency of ANY playoff run in the history of 3-pointer basketball.

And I'm telling you, Pippen increased his scoring in the playoffs more years in his career than it decreased. Upped his game in the postseason, That's one of MJ's shinning halo points right? Well Scottie did that too plenty of seasons. KAT did not. The end. Scottie Pippen was a massive advantage to have as your 2nd option despite all the delirium you've posted and fellow Air Jordies have cosigned.

[sdot_thadon]

Cowherd is a joke. His narrative is "Jordan was not that special. His environment created him. All we need is to create similar environment around another athletic wing player and we'll see another Jordan."

Same assumption fueling the narrative around LeBron too. "LeBron's better or just as good. He just needs the right environment to prove it." Which is why everyone is ok with LeBron hopping from team to team and having 1000 teammates traded and 10 coaches fired. They want to find the "perfect" environment so we can finally see LeBron fulfill the destiny they are so desperate to believe.

I think he's just an older fan that has adjusted his view of the old league to match updated critiques of basketball as a whole. Something rational adults do when standards change.

[StrongLurk]

All OP does is further prove how weak the 90's were. A guy like Pippen (who sucks according to OP) was a top 10 player of that decade and routinely a top 3 second option in the league :roll:

[sdot_thadon]

All OP does is further prove how weak the 90's were. A guy like Pippen (who sucks according to OP) was a top 10 player of that decade and routinely a top 3 second option in the league :roll:

And wonder why the kids are "done with tha 90s" :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

All OP does is further prove how weak the 90's were. A guy like Pippen (who sucks according to OP) was a top 10 player of that decade and routinely a top 3 second option in the league :roll:

He’ll just say that just proves Jordan’s greatness that he could win with a bum. Then if someone else has the time they’ll post that the Wolves supported outplayed anyone Jordan faced too, thereby making players now better. And then he’ll move the goalposts somewhere else. And then someone else will get bored and he’ll claim victory.

Textbook.

[NBAGOAT]

Cowherd is a joke. His narrative is "Jordan was not that special. His environment created him. All we need is to create similar environment around another athletic wing player and we'll see another Jordan."

Same assumption fueling the narrative around LeBron too. "LeBron's better or just as good. He just needs the right environment to prove it." Which is why everyone is ok with LeBron hopping from team to team and having 1000 teammates traded and 10 coaches fired. They want to find the "perfect" environment so we can finally see LeBron fulfill the destiny they are so desperate to believe.

Cowherd is a joke but he’s not completely wrong here. Lebrons been in a ton of crap situations. Jordan certainly was not created by his environment but he was in a good one. Played with pippen on a steal of a contract, phil, and other inpactful guys grant, rodman, kukoc etc for a decade.

And yes ant shouldn’t even be compared but his offensive help was a bit lacking. Karl Anthony towns isn’t a great no2, I could definitely name 5 better in the league

[3ba11]

Cowherd is a joke but he’s not completely wrong here. Lebrons been in a ton of crap situations. Jordan certainly was not created by his environment but he was in a good one. Played with pippen on a steal of a contract, phil, and other inpactful guys grant, rodman, kukoc etc for a decade.

And yes ant shouldn’t even be compared but his offensive help was a bit lacking. Karl Anthony towns isn’t a great no2, I could definitely name 5 better in the league


How is it a "good" situation to be the only player in history outside of peak Kareem in 71' or peak Shaq in 00' to win titles as scoring champ?.. And the only player to win as usage champ?... How is that "ideal" and "perfect"?... How is it ideal to win with no rim protection and inferior defenses during the 1st three-peat than nearly every ECF and Finals opponent?.. Players that carried the scoring load like 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk are lauded for it, yet MJ won 6 titles like that with weak scoring help and carrying the scoring load.

Furthermore, Rodman was old like 2010 Shaq or 2009 Ben Wallace, while Kukoc was an ordinary player that every team has, so to claim that these guys gave the Bulls a special advantage is nonsense - they were role players and nothing more...

The only reason you cite them is because Jordan dragged them to titles.. Otherwise you would never be citing them in a forum because they were ordinary players.. It's just like no one cites 2009 Ben Wallace because Lebron wasn't able to win as a massive favorite and infact lost to an injured, 1-star team.., But if he won, then 2009 Wallace or 2010 Shaq would be cited the same way you just cited fossil Rodman.

Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs... This means that MJ won titles with Horace, fossil Rodman and Kukoc as starting PF's, aka the PF position was a role player position for Jordan, which contrasts with the perennial all-star PF's that Lebron required (Love, Bosh, AD).

Regarding Pippen - he just happened to be there - his 8 ppg had nothing to do with the Bulls' 50 wins in 1988 - he also missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF and Game 7 of the 90' ECF, so he cost the Bulls 3 titles from 88-90'.

It's clear that prime Jordan was going to win with any top 10 team defense and a sidekick that could average 17 ppg, so Pippen just happened to be there.. The Bulls only had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), which was inferior to nearly every ECF and Finals opponent, while every opponent also had more scoring options - the Bulls only had 2 scoring options compared to 3 to 8 for other teams... If you upgraded Paxson to a more playmaking point guard like Kenny Smith or Derek Harper, you could replace Pippen with literally anyone - an alpha spacer like Horry would be perfect, or Sean Elliot, or Nance, Kemp, and many others... .

History shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance level - this is historical fact and there is no playoff series or meaningful set of career averages that shows otherwise.. The winning spotlight simply inflated him to all-time status and media accolade..

[SouBeachTalents]

How is it a "good" situation to be the only player in history outside of peak Kareem in 71' or peak Shaq in 00' to win titles as scoring champ?.. And the only player to win as usage champ?... How is that "ideal" and "perfect"?... How is it ideal to win with no rim protection and inferior defenses during the 1st three-peat than nearly every ECF and Finals opponent?.. Players that carried the scoring load like 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk are lauded for it, yet MJ won 6 titles like that with weak scoring help and carrying the scoring load.

Furthermore, Rodman was old like 2010 Shaq or 2009 Ben Wallace, while Kukoc was an ordinary player that every team has, so to claim that these guys gave the Bulls a special advantage is nonsense - they were role players and nothing more...

The only reason you cite them is because Jordan dragged them to titles.. Otherwise you would never be citing them in a forum because they were ordinary players.. It's just like no one cites 2009 Ben Wallace because Lebron wasn't able to win as a massive favorite and infact lost to an injured, 1-star team.., But if he won, then 2009 Wallace or 2010 Shaq would be cited the same way you just cited fossil Rodman.

Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs... This means that MJ won titles with Horace, fossil Rodman and Kukoc as starting PF's, aka the PF position was a role player position for Jordan, which contrasts with the perennial all-star PF's that Lebron required (Love, Bosh, AD).

Regarding Pippen - he just happened to be there - his 8 ppg had nothing to do with the Bulls' 50 wins in 1988 - he also missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF and Game 7 of the 90' ECF, so he cost the Bulls 3 titles from 88-90'.

It's clear that prime Jordan was going to win with any top 10 team defense and a sidekick that could average 17 ppg, so Pippen just happened to be there.. The Bulls only had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), which was inferior to nearly every ECF and Finals opponent, while every opponent also had more scoring options - the Bulls only had 2 scoring options compared to 3 to 8 for other teams... If you upgraded Paxson to a more playmaking point guard like Kenny Smith or Derek Harper, you could replace Pippen with literally anyone - an alpha spacer like Horry would be perfect, or Sean Elliot, or Nance, Kemp, and many others... .

History shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance level - this is historical fact and there is no playoff series or meaningful set of career averages that shows otherwise.. The winning spotlight simply inflated him to all-time status and media accolade..
1-9.

[NBAGOAT]

How is it a "good" situation to be the only player in history outside of peak Kareem in 71' or peak Shaq in 00' to win titles as scoring champ?.. And the only player to win as usage champ?... How is that "ideal" and "perfect"?... How is it ideal to win with no rim protection and inferior defenses during the 1st three-peat than nearly every ECF and Finals opponent?.. Players that carried the scoring load like 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk are lauded for it, yet MJ won 6 titles like that with weak scoring help and carrying the scoring load.

Furthermore, Rodman was old like 2010 Shaq or 2009 Ben Wallace, while Kukoc was an ordinary player that every team has, so to claim that these guys gave the Bulls a special advantage is nonsense - they were role players and nothing more...

The only reason you cite them is because Jordan dragged them to titles.. Otherwise you would never be citing them in a forum because they were ordinary players.. It's just like no one cites 2009 Ben Wallace because Lebron wasn't able to win as a massive favorite and infact lost to an injured, 1-star team.., But if he won, then 2009 Wallace or 2010 Shaq would be cited the same way you just cited fossil Rodman.

Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs... This means that MJ won titles with Horace, fossil Rodman and Kukoc as starting PF's, aka the PF position was a role player position for Jordan, which contrasts with the perennial all-star PF's that Lebron required (Love, Bosh, AD).

Regarding Pippen - he just happened to be there - his 8 ppg had nothing to do with the Bulls' 50 wins in 1988 - he also missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF and Game 7 of the 90' ECF, so he cost the Bulls 3 titles from 88-90'.

It's clear that prime Jordan was going to win with any top 10 team defense and a sidekick that could average 17 ppg, so Pippen just happened to be there.. The Bulls only had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), which was inferior to nearly every ECF and Finals opponent, while every opponent also had more scoring options - the Bulls only had 2 scoring options compared to 3 to 8 for other teams... If you upgraded Paxson to a more playmaking point guard like Kenny Smith or Derek Harper, you could replace Pippen with literally anyone - an alpha spacer like Horry would be perfect, or Sean Elliot, or Nance, Kemp, and many others... .

History shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance level - this is historical fact and there is no playoff series or meaningful set of career averages that shows otherwise.. The winning spotlight simply inflated him to all-time status and media accolade..

Kukoc was not ordinary, obvious watching him but also bpm from 96-98. 5.4, 5.0, 3.3. Rodman was obviously impactful especially on defense no 2010 doesn’t compare to him just because you say so even if cavs won a title.

Your contention that the bulls win with any top 10 defense and sidekick doesn’t make sense considering the bulls played close series those years. A dropoff from 7th to 10th can cost a series. A sidekick who’s worse offensively than pippen can also be the difference. you’re just ignoring what actually happened at this point.

Pls name the team with 8 scoring options. Keep in mind grant and kukoc both scored 13 ppg+. Good luck even finding a team with 5 or more. We’re blatantly lying now lol

[3ba11]

Kukoc was not ordinary, obvious watching him but also bpm from 96-98. 5.4, 5.0, 3.3. Rodman was obviously impactful especially on defense no 2010 doesn’t compare to him just because you say so even if cavs won a title.

Your contention that the bulls win with any top 10 defense and sidekick doesn’t make sense considering the bulls played close series those years. A dropoff from 7th to 10th can cost a series. A sidekick who’s worse offensively than pippen can also be the difference. you’re just ignoring what actually happened at this point.

Pls name the team with 8 scoring options. Keep in mind grant and kukoc both scored 13 ppg+. Good luck even finding a team with 5 or more. We’re blatantly lying now lol


Kukoc was trash and everyone knows that - he was a letdown coming over from Europe because he was actually projected as a star but ended up being much worse than Larry Hughes on both sides of the ball...

And again, Jordan only needed INFERIOR team defense to his opponents, such as the 91' Pistons or Lakers, or the 92' Knicks and Blazers, or the 93' Knicks - so he had inferior defensive help than his opponents, while also having inferior scoring help.. every opponent had more scoring options than the Bulls and better rim protection and just far more good PLAYERS... everyone knew this in the 90's, which is why MJ is credited with carrying those teams - the stats back up the fact that he carried those teams.

Btw, it's notable that Lebron had the #3 defense in 2007 without being an all-defensive player until 2009... So he had better defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having more scoring options such as 2x all-star center, 22/5/5 acquisition, or all-star Mo and Jamison (a 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in 07' 1st round - this guy played THIRD option for lebron in 2010)

[NBAGOAT]

No one disputes Jordan carried. I’m disputing other points. Like Hughes isn’t better than kukoc on offense lol. Also still waiting for you to name a team with even 5-6 scoring options. Over 13ppg by your own definition since grant and kukoc aren’t scoring options according to you. If you’re going lie in discussions then I have nothing else to say.

[3ba11]

No one disputes Jordan carried. I’m disputing other points. Like Hughes isn’t better than kukoc on offense lol. Also still waiting for you to name a team with even 5-6 scoring options. Over 13ppg by your own definition since grant and kukoc aren’t scoring options according to you. If you’re going lie in discussions then I have nothing else to say.


Jerome Kersey led the Blazers in scoring for the 1990 Western Playoffs to lead the Blazers to the Finals - he often averaged around 20 ppg but he was the Blazers 5th-best player behind all-stars Drexler, Porter, Duckworth and Buck Williams (perennial all-defender)... Their bench was great with 1x all-star Ainge, HOF Petrovic and all-defensive player Cliff Robinson - the Blazers were far superior to the Bulls and most contending opponents had this kind of personnel advantage on the Bulls..

After Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had 4 guys that were equal or better than Horace such as all-time floor general Mark Jackson, or X-Man, Mason, and Oakley.. Grant was destroyed by the 91' Lakers (Vlade and Perkins), or the 92' Blazers (Kersey), or the 93' Suns (Majerle, Dumas)... Every team had far more GOOD PLAYERS than the Bulls, who only had robotic role players at every position except Jordan/Pippen (and of course Pippen was a historic bricklayer and mostly a dunker).

During the 1st three-peat, 3rd options were 3x all-stars like Nance, Majerle, Aguirre and Duckworth, while 3rd options during the 2nd three-peat had All-NBA on their resume like Mason, Schrempf or Mashburn.

[NBAGOAT]

Jerome Kersey led the Blazers in scoring for the 1990 Western Playoffs to lead the Blazers to the Finals - he often averaged around 20 ppg but he was the Blazers 5th-best player behind all-stars Drexler, Porter, Duckworth and Buck Williams (perennial all-defender)... Their bench was great with 1x all-star Ainge, HOF Petrovic and all-defensive player Cliff Robinson - the Blazers were far superior to the Bulls and most contending opponents had this kind of personnel advantage on the Bulls..

After Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had 4 guys that were equal or better than Horace such as all-time floor general Mark Jackson, or X-Man, Mason, and Oakley.. Grant was destroyed by the 91' Lakers (Vlade and Perkins), or the 92' Blazers (Kersey), or the 93' Suns (Majerle, Dumas)... Every team had far more GOOD PLAYERS than the Bulls, who only had robotic role players at every position except Jordan/Pippen (and of course Pippen was a historic bricklayer and mostly a dunker).

During the 1st three-peat, 3rd options were 3x all-stars like Nance, Majerle, Aguirre and Duckworth, while 3rd options during the 2nd three-peat had All-NBA on their resume like Mason, Schrempf or Mashburn.

I don’t care about resumes or lvl of play or defense that’s all deflection. You said other teams had up to 8 scoring options when the bulls had 2. Horace grant scored 13ppg so that’s the cutoff I’ll use. He’s not a scoring option by your own criteria so you need to score more to be one. The 91 blazers had 4 guys over 13ppg, the 92 Knicks 3 and the 93 suns 4. Keep in mind kj and dumas are 2/4 and only played little more than 50% of games so it was usually 3. Nice try you found a team with 4 but you’re still a liar and can’t find a team with 5.

[3ba11]

I don’t care about resumes or lvl of play or defense that’s all deflection. You said other teams had up to 8 scoring options when the bulls had 2. Horace grant scored 13ppg so that’s the cutoff I’ll use. He’s not a scoring option by your own criteria so you need to score more to be one. The 91 blazers had 4 guys over 13ppg, the 92 Knicks 3 and the 93 suns 4. Keep in mind kj and dumas are 2/4 and only played little more than 50% of games so it was usually 3. Nice try you found a team with 4 but you’re still a liar and can’t find a team with 5.


Horace wasn't a scorer, while Ainge, Kersey, Duckworth, Porter, Buck Williams and Drexler were - that's 6 scoring options - they won't all average a lot because they have to share the load, but they all had seasons of high ppg at some point in their career and are considered scorers.

Or X-Man, Mark Jackson, Mason, Starks and Ewing - that's 5 scoring options

Or the Suns had Barkley, KJ, Majerle, and Dumas - that's 4 scoring options.. And Chambers.. that's 5

The Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot (isiah, dumars, aguirre, laimbeer, rodman)

and on and on and on.. every team in the league had more scoring options and most contenders had better defenses

[NBAGOAT]

Horace wasn't a scorer, while Ainge, Kersey, Duckworth, Porter, Buck Williams and Drexler were - that's 6 scoring options - they won't all average a lot because they have to share the load, but they all had seasons of high ppg at some point in their career and are considered scorers.

Or X-Man, Mark Jackson, Mason, Starks and Ewing - that's 5 scoring options

Or the Suns had Barkley, KJ, Majerle, and Dumas - that's 4 scoring options.. And Chambers.. that's 5

The Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot (isiah, dumars, aguirre, laimbeer, rodman)

and on and on and on.. every team in the league had more scoring options and most contenders had better defenses

grant has to share scoring load with greatest scorer ever. That's a bigger deal than kersey having to share with a couple role players. Mason scored like 7ppg in 1991 continue lying lol. I like how you call rodman an all star with pistons yet with bulls he's old. Rodman never scored above 10ppg from 89-92 calling him a scoring option while calling grant not one is another lie