Is 1 Championship enough for Luka Doncic to become the GOAT Mavericks player?

[Drygon]

It's fair to say Luka Doncic, since his 2nd NBA season, is easily the best player ever to play for Mavs with a gigantic landslide. The likes of Dirk himself, Jerry West, Mark Cuban, Jason Kidd & Shawn Marion have admitted Luka > Dirk as a player


Dirk Nowitzki: Luka Doncic is such a special talent and so good already at leading the floor at just 21, 22, and his just unbelievable all-around game. I would say he is better than me now than I’ve ever been in my prime and that’s how good he is at 22 already.”

https://www.slamonline.com/news/nba/dirk-on-luka-he-is-better-than-me-now-than-ive-ever-been/


Jerry West (in 2020): Look at Dallas; Luka Doncic has transformed them into a playoff team. He will be the best player Dallas has ever had. I have great respect for Nowitzki, but Dirk is not him.”

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2020/1/5/21050736/luka-doncic-jerry-west-best-dallas-maverick-player-ever-dirk-nowitzki


Mark Cuban: "No disrespect to Dirk. Dirk knows I love him to death. Dirk will be the first one to tell you Luka’s better.”

https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/nba/dallas-mavericks/article287584260.html#storylink=cpy


Jason Kidd: "I've said this before, and I'll say this for as long as I'm here, you can't take this young man for granted.

Luka Doncic is better than Dirk, he's in the atmosphere of MJ, the best to ever do it. LeBron [James], Kobe, and so just to appreciate what this young man is doing at the age of 24 is something that Dallas has never seen. And I've said this internally, he is better than Dirk. He does things that Dirk could never do. And now is the opportunity of getting the right people around him to ultimately win a championship."

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/jason-kidd-says-luka-doncic-is-better-than-dirk-nowitzki-and-in-the-atmosphere-of-michael-jordan/


Shawn Marion: "As far as skillset and scoring-wise, yes, Luka Doncic is better than Dirk. That's not even a question. As far as what Dirk has done, the longevity and history, no, Luka isn't better than Dirk. Dirk is a seven-foot assassin with a fadeaway. But as the whole package, that's not even actually a relevant question honestly. Look at how much Luka is able to do on the floor."

https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/dallas-mavs-luka-doncic-dirk-nowitzki-finals-mvp-hall-of-fame-triple-double

Do you agree 1 Championship is enough for Luka Doncic to surpass Dirk as the GOAT Mavericks player?

[highwhey]

correct.

[ArbitraryWater]

Mhmm if thats body of work, no.

Dirk will still have done more for the Mavs than luka.

But hes better than Dirk, yes.

[tpols]

Dirk was better imo. But not by a lot.

[John8204]

No he still has to hit bench marks...Dirk rook two teams to the finals and has 30K points. In my opinion Dirk is top twenty, however Luka should have been MVP this year and if he beats Boston he's a top 75 player already.

[hold this L]

No, not yet. But in a few years, it's very likely.

No he still has to hit bench marks...Dirk rook two teams to the finals and has 30K points. In my opinion Dirk is top twenty, however Luka should have been MVP this year and if he beats Boston he's a top 75 player already.
Top 35 if he beats Boston.

[ArbitraryWater]

No he still has to hit bench marks...Dirk rook two teams to the finals and has 30K points. In my opinion Dirk is top twenty, however Luka should have been MVP this year and if he beats Boston he's a top 75 player already.

Top 75?

Easiy around top 30

[iamgine]

I mean Dirk beat Lebron and Wade with Jason Terry

Luka would be beating Tatum and Brown with Kyrie.

I don't think that's enough.

[John8204]

Top 75?

Easiy around top 30

Maybe top sixty....I wouldn't put someone at his age in the top ten yet

PG - Magic, Oscar, Curry, Stockton, Frazier, Kidd, Isiah, CPIII, Archibald, Payton
SG - Jordan, Kobe, West, Gervin, Iverson, Wade, Maravich, Miller, Harden, Drexler
SF - Bird, Erving, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry, Durant, Arizin, Leonard, Pippen, Rodman
PF - Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Pettit, KG, Barkley, Giannis, Malone, Hayes, McHale
C - Chamberlain, KAJ, Russell, Mikan, Moses, Hakeem, Shaq, Jokic, Robinson

[ArbitraryWater]

Maybe top sixty....I wouldn't put someone at his age in the top ten yet

PG - Magic, Oscar, Curry, Stockton, Frazier, Kidd, Isiah, CPIII, Archibald, Payton
SG - Jordan, Kobe, West, Gervin, Iverson, Wade, Maravich, Miller, Harden, Drexler
SF - Bird, Erving, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry, Durant, Arizin, Leonard, Pippen, Rodman
PF - Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Pettit, KG, Barkley, Giannis, Malone, Hayes, McHale
C - Chamberlain, KAJ, Russell, Mikan, Moses, Hakeem, Shaq, Jokic, Robinson


So if luka were to retire after a Chip this year, hed be bottom end top 60? Behind Hayes, McHale, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry, Rodman(?!), REGGIE MIllER, IVERSON, GERVIN, KIDD, ARCHIBAlD?

:D

[SouBeachTalents]

So if luka were to retire after a Chip this year, hed be bottom end top 60? Behind Hayes, McHale, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry, Rodman(?!), REGGIE MIllER, IVERSON, GERVIN, KIDD, ARCHIBAlD?

:D
Bro, this is his gimmick, make indefensibly dumb claims about where players rank. He's either a troll or legitimately retarded :lol

[John8204]

So if luka were to retire after a Chip this year, hed be bottom end top 60? Behind Hayes, McHale, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry, Rodman(?!), REGGIE MIllER, IVERSON, GERVIN, KIDD, ARCHIBAlD?

:D

Right he would be a
5X All-star
11,000 Pts
3,000 Asts
2 Playoff runs
1 Title

So let's go rhrough some of those players

Rick Barry
6X All-Star
25K points
2 Championships
5 Playoff runs

Reggie Miller
5X Allstar
25K points
6 playoff runs

Elgin Baylor
11X All-Star
20K in points 10K in rebounds
9 playoff runs

(a playoff run is conference or NBA finals)

Why would you want to contextualize the career of a 25 year old? We just went through this 10 years ago with KD you don't have to over inflate every current player in the league.

[John8204]

Bro, this is his gimmick, make indefensibly dumb claims about where players rank. He's either a troll or legitimately retarded :lol

Well lets see one of us can make an argument based on history, facts, and context and the other one of us can only use name calling.

[90sgoat]

He's the best player to have played for the Mavs, but he is not the best Mavs player.

[Naero]

For the here and now? Not yet. Luka would still have a bit more to accomplish to eclipse Dirk overall, even with a ring and Finals MVP this year. I'm not even sure this run—as Cinderella-esque as it's been—would be more impressive than Dirk's 2011 title, unless Luka has a Finals for the ages.

Long term, though? Yeah, winning this year would easily put him on pace to do so before he retires. He's already the better player prime-for-prime IMO, and he's only bound to widen the gap further—and add more accolades in the process—in the years to come as he reaches his peak.

[StrongLurk]

The answer is yes.

[Dbrog]

I mean Dirk beat Lebron and Wade with Jason Terry

Luka would be beating Tatum and Brown with Kyrie.

I don't think that's enough.

This. Dirk's run that year was also historic as it was one of 4 or 5 runs ever where a single player basically carried his team to a chip...let alone against one of the most stacked teams ever assembled

[ImKobe]

He needs to win multiple titles IMO, or at least win this 1 and then have multiple MVP seasons and a long career in Dallas. Dirk gave everything to that franchise and kept them relevant for more than a decade with 12 straight seasons of making the POs (50+ wins for 11 straight) and many deep Playoff runs. Luka still has ways to go.

[Jasper]

2 rings for Luka will make him the best Mav's in history - he knows it.

[Phoenix]

Two different conversations. Is Luka the best player to wear a Mavs uniform? I would say so for at least the last 2 seasons. No-one wearing that uniform has individually been at this level overall.

The GOAT Maverick, as in legacy for that franchise? No, that is and should still unquestionably be Dirk.

[FilmyCogTurner]

I have to give the edge to Dirk although Mavs winning this year would be super impressive and you have to factor in Luka's age which only adds to the feat but 2011 had so many legends all at once, Kobe Duncan, Lebron all with strong teams.

[nayte]

Two different conversations. Is Luka the best player to wear a Mavs uniform? I would say so for at least the last 2 seasons. No-one wearing that uniform has individually been at this level overall.

The GOAT Maverick, as in legacy for that franchise? No, that is and should still unquestionably be Dirk.

Yeah this

[ArbitraryWater]

Right he would be a
5X All-star
11,000 Pts
3,000 Asts
2 Playoff runs
1 Title

So let's go rhrough some of those players

Rick Barry
6X All-Star
25K points
2 Championships
5 Playoff runs

Reggie Miller
5X Allstar
25K points
6 playoff runs

Elgin Baylor
11X All-Star
20K in points 10K in rebounds
9 playoff runs

(a playoff run is conference or NBA finals)

Why would you want to contextualize the career of a 25 year old? We just went through this 10 years ago with KD you don't have to over inflate every current player in the league.


That isnt just highly superficial, but can you now show their averages? :lol

[GimmeThat]

Anthony Davis only has 1 championship with Lebron, is he still not the best teammate Lebron ever had?

[DMAVS41]

No, but the start of his career would be so far ahead of Dirk's that it would be a forgone conclusion unless something terrible happens to him. Even without a title this year, he's on a path to make this a definitive case.

However, he still does have to do legendary shit. Dirk did lead two teams to the finals...having one of the best title runs ever beating insanely good competition and also proved he could beat teams like the Duncan led 06 Spurs and carry a franchise to a decade straight of 50 win seasons...etc.

To date, Luka has not done anything as impressive as Dirk getting the 06 team to the finals or the 11 team to the title...so it's still too early to claim that now, but the writing is on the wall and the cool thing is that Luka has enough help to get it done.

Simply, if he wants to go down as truly one of the handful of best ever, which I think is a possibility, he needs to go out in this series starting tomorrow and play like he's easily the best player in the series and lead this team to a title. If not, plenty of time for him to do it multiple times, but crowning him will be premature in a loss.

[Overdrive]

He's the best player to have played for the Mavs, but he is not the best Mavs player.

What's this post? Such things are usually said about players that play(ed) for a certain franchise, but haven't had their best seasons there. Both candidates played their full career at the Mavs(so far).

[DMAVS41]

What's this post? Such things are usually said about players that play(ed) for a certain franchise, but haven't had their best seasons there. Both candidates played their full career at the Mavs(so far).

I'm assuming what is meant by this is that Luka's peak is higher than Dirk's was, but more time is needed for Luka to accomplish enough to warrant being called the Mavs best player ever.

I don't even know if I agree with that.

From 06 through 11...Dirk averaged 27/10/3 on 60% TS in the playoffs. He led the team to the finals twice, won a title, won a deserved MVP...they won over 50 each year (probably averaged 55 wins a season during that stretch). Beat the Duncan led Spurs in the midst of what would have been a 3-peat (definitely a better team than any Luka has beaten) and then beat the Lebron Heat (another team better than any Luka has beaten)

Has Luka done anything as impressive as that to give him the title of better player? I don't think so. I think many are falling for grading on the curve fallacy because he's so young and impressive...but if you take his first 6 years for those 6 for Dirk...

From 19 through 24...Luka has averaged 31/10/8 on 57% TS. He upset the Suns (incredibly impressive), missed the playoffs during that stretch, and now led this team to the finals. Players like him are always going to have better counting stats, but even then they are closer than they look when you factor in the different eras. Mavs have won 50 or more games twice in that 6 year stretch.

I don't know, Luka's start to his career blows Dirk's start to his out of the water...I think too many are confusing themselves on that front.

Call me old-fashioned...I'm going to need to see a player actually do crazy shit to be known as better than Dirk this early in a career. If Dirk can beat the Duncan Spurs and Lebron Heat with the kind of help he did...then Luka needs to beat this Boston team with this kind of help to be put on the same level.

Lastly, so much of Dirk's impact is missing from raw stats while Luka's isn't fully captured, but it is much better captured.

06-11....the Mavs were +7.9 points per 100 with Dirk and -2.5 without him. Net rating of +10.4

19-24...the Mavs have been +2.8 points per 100 with Luka and +.1 without him. Net rating of +2.7

[90sgoat]

:cheers:

Dirk was an all time goat from midrange, literally on the level of prime MJ. Incredibly clutch, unblockable, unguardable. Run the floor like a guard, post up like a big man.

I agree that maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves, but then because Dirk is underrated, not because Luka is overrated.

Also, Dirk did have a lot of help on the 2011, Kidd was amazing, Peja, Chandler, Marion, Terry, JJ, Stevenson that's a better crew than Luka has, even if most were on their last legs.

I did watch that finals and Kidd was a huge player for Mavs and not done at all, Peja hit the shots, Marion hustled, Chandler was a beat and Terry was cooking.

[DMAVS41]

:cheers:

Dirk was an all time goat from midrange, literally on the level of prime MJ. Incredibly clutch, unblockable, unguardable. Run the floor like a guard, post up like a big man.

I agree that maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves, but then because Dirk is underrated, not because Luka is overrated.

Also, Dirk did have a lot of help on the 2011, Kidd was amazing, Peja, Chandler, Marion, Terry, JJ, Stevenson that's a better crew than Luka has, even if most were on their last legs.

I did watch that finals and Kidd was a huge player for Mavs and not done at all, Peja hit the shots, Marion hustled, Chandler was a beat and Terry was cooking.

I agree, broadly, with all of this.

Nobody wins alone...my main point is that people seem to be forgetting that Dirk already has a 6 year stretch better than Luka's first 6 years of his career, won't be very close if the Mavs lose this title.

I think the reason this comes up is because Luka has been so good so quickly that he's getting the benefit of that, but as I laid out above...Dirk from 06-11 did some legendary shit....and starting tomorrow, Luka might go on a tear and be holding two trophies in 10 days or so. Who knows...

Luka, assuming he stays in Dallas...will almost for sure go down as the best player in franchise history, but I'm not going to give it to him until he puts in at least a few more great years and brings home the title assuming he continues to have enough help to get one.

[90sgoat]

I agree, broadly, with all of this.

Nobody wins alone...my main point is that people seem to be forgetting that Dirk already has a 6 year stretch better than Luka's first 6 years of his career, won't be very close if the Mavs lose this title.

I think the reason this comes up is because Luka has been so good so quickly that he's getting the benefit of that, but as I laid out above...Dirk from 06-11 did some legendary shit....and starting tomorrow, Luka might go on a tear and be holding two trophies in 10 days or so. Who knows...

Luka, assuming he stays in Dallas...will almost for sure go down as the best player in franchise history, but I'm not going to give it to him until he puts in at least a few more great years and brings home the title assuming he continues to have enough help to get one.

Yes, Dirk played in a very difficult time for his position and got overshadowed by Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

Exactly.

I'd add Shaq/Kobe as well.

02-11...Dirk in the playoffs did 26/11/3 on 59% TS with 3 WCF trips, 2 finals, and a title...with a MVP and FMVP

Each year the Mavs won over 50 games (won over 60 three times I think) and probably averaged around 55 wins a season.

In the playoffs, beat KG, Duncan, Nash, Kobe, Durant, and Lebron.

In every year but one in that time, the Mavs had a negative differential without Dirk on the court (only positive year was 06 with a +.2)...over that time Dirk had a +11.2 net rating

[Real Men Wear Green]

The title business may prove to difficult and a bit unfair. I believe that any superstar that doesn't win a championship over the next few years is going to fall victim to the Wembanyama era, just like the generation of stars that could not get a ring due to Jordan. Whenever Pop decides to stop tanking and they unleash Wemby for 36+ mpg with a good supporting cast is going to be insanely difficult to beat a team based on that guy. Dirk had a similar problem playing in the Shaq era but benefitted from being younger than Shaq. Doncic is older than Wembanyama so if Dallas doesn't win before Pop starts seriously going for wins it's going to be over. Accordingly Doncic should be more judged based on what he does as an individual. He is going to take multiple MVPs on the strength of overwhelming statistics and at his peak will likely be better than Dirk was at everything but three-point shooting, where he will still be very good and possibly better than Dirk as well. Both guys are liable to be targeted defensively so that's a wash.

What could make a difference but I doubt we see happen is what we would see if Doncic ever got into great shape. If he was the kind of athlete that could carry an offense all game long while still putting on a strong defensive effort and not be gassed by the end of the game. As he is now he has to find a way to get himself a breather during the game. If he didn't need that he might able to interfere with the coming Wembanyama era.

[90sgoat]

Luka will figure it out.

His defense and conditioning is almost there. He's a legit defender now too. Post game is elite but not used enough.

What I'd like him to work on is catch and shoot. That's the easiest way to get a breather, go stand in the corner, hit a 3 pointer on a kickout.

It would change things a lot, but can his ego deal with it?

The one thing we know for sure is that Luka will not stagnate, he's going to add new stuff every offseason.

[DMAVS41]

The title business may prove to difficult and a bit unfair. I believe that any superstar that doesn't win a championship over the next few years is going to fall victim to the Wembanyama era, just like the generation of stars that could not get a ring due to Jordan. Whenever Pop decides to stop tanking and they unleash Wemby for 36+ mpg with a good supporting cast is going to be insanely difficult to beat a team based on that guy. Dirk had a similar problem playing in the Shaq era but benefitted from being younger than Shaq. Doncic is older than Wembanyama so if Dallas doesn't win before Pop starts seriously going for wins it's going to be over. Accordingly Doncic should be more judged based on what he does as an individual. He is going to take multiple MVPs on the strength of overwhelming statistics and at his peak will likely be better than Dirk was at everything but three-point shooting, where he will still be very good and possibly better than Dirk as well. Both guys are liable to be targeted defensively so that's a wash.

What could make a difference but I doubt we see happen is what we would see if Doncic ever got into great shape. If he was the kind of athlete that could carry an offense all game long while still putting on a strong defensive effort and not be gassed by the end of the game. As he is now he has to find a way to get himself a breather during the game. If he didn't need that he might able to interfere with the coming Wembanyama era.

Luka could go down as better than Dirk without a title based on circumstances. I totally agree.

However, if Luka is so much better than Dirk...then surely he'll be able to get a title with help like this at some point considering Dirk was able to beat competition that I think was better...this is where team success matters.

If one is going to make the argument that player X is so much better than player Y...cool...then it should show up demonstrably at some point in the entire point of playing...trying to win playoff games and the title...assuming the circumstances are there...which they are for Luka. Where it gets tough is determining just how good a guy like KG was on Minny given his horrible circumstances most of the time. With Luka...he's get legit enough help now to challenge for a title...not favorites or anything, but neither was Dirk when he played the 06 Spurs or half the teams the 11 team beat en route to the title.

Also think it is flawed to judge players on what you lay out because guys like Dirk give up the pursuit of individual statistics to play a style better for the team...while Luka plays a style that will yield a ton of stats even if he doesn't play that well.

That is why you have to compare them based on individual impact and how the teams perform based on their circumstances.

Luckily, Luka has already had a tremendous amount of success and has proven his style can translate into winning in the playoffs...but he actually has to do legendary shit to pass up the other legends of the game.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I don't think it's possible for their to ever be a perfect comparison. They're will never be a time when their competition and supporting cats are both equal and Doncic plays a role that can only be compared to prone Harden. Personally I give him credit for playing a role that I don't think many others could even if they wanted to but if you don't in not going to argue over it.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think it's possible for their to ever be a perfect comparison. They're will never be a time when their competition and supporting cats are both equal and Doncic plays a role that can only be compared to prone Harden. Personally I give him credit for playing a role that I don't think many others could even if they wanted to but if you don't in not going to argue over it.

Nothing is ever perfect, completely agree.

But, again, if a player is supposedly clearly better than another...they should at the very least produce similar results in similar circumstances.

I think that is fair.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Nothing is ever perfect, completely agree.

But, again, if a player is supposedly clearly better than another...they should at the very least produce similar results in similar circumstances.

I think that is fair.
I don't know that the circumstances are all that similar. Doncic has had some solid supporting casts but nothing as talented a the Finley/Nash/Van Exel/other guys that I would swear were good but don't fully remember. Nowitzki did not win a ring until he played with less on paper talent than the crew he had in the early 00s. Conversely I'm not sure the current Mavericks have a third scorer. A third scorer might not even work with the way Doncic dominated the ball. We can't even say that Irving is equal to Nash, they both have impact but as point guards go what they do is very different even though they have comparable skill sets. I do believe that notwithstanding could have had bigger numbers of he dominated the ball like Doncic but I don't really know how to factor that kind of thought into comparing them. I probably go with Doncic because Doncic is already a great passing guard and then manages to rebound like a big whereas although Nowitzki was a good rebounder he was nowhere near being 8 or 9 apg. Could he have if he was used as a ball dominant point forward? It's impossible to know.

[L.Kizzle]

One was enough for Dirk, it should be enough for Luka.

[90sgoat]

Ultimately I think some like me have underestimated Dirk due to being around when KG/Webber/Duncan/Karl Malone played the power forward.

If Dirk had played today, he'd have been even better and would probably easily be seen as better than KG and more on par with Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

I don't know that the circumstances are all that similar. Doncic has had some solid supporting casts but nothing as talented a the Finley/Nash/Van Exel/other guys that I would swear were good but don't fully remember. Nowitzki did not win a ring until he played with less on paper talent than the crew he had in the early 00s. Conversely I'm not sure the current Mavericks have a third scorer. A third scorer might not even work with the way Doncic dominated the ball. We can't even say that Irving is equal to Nash, they both have impact but as point guards go what they do is very different even though they have comparable skill sets. I do believe that notwithstanding could have had bigger numbers of he dominated the ball like Doncic but I don't really know how to factor that kind of thought into comparing them. I probably go with Doncic because Doncic is already a great passing guard and then manages to rebound like a big whereas although Nowitzki was a good rebounder he was nowhere near being 8 or 9 apg. Could he have if he was used as a ball dominant point forward? It's impossible to know.

You are misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying this current Mavs team around Luka is as good as every team they put around Dirk...that is definitely not true.

I'm talking broadly...if Luka has this kind of help or slightly more...for the next 5 years or so...I'd say it is perfectly reasonable to expect him to win at least 1 title if he is clearly a better player than Dirk ever was. Again, I'm not even arguing that isn't true...I just need to see shit actually be accomplished before I can agree with that.

Finley/Nash/Van Exel were awesome. The Mavs had a real shot to win the title in 03. In fact, I think that was actually the best team the Mavs had around Dirk. Unfortunately Dirk got hurt in the WCF and the rest is history.

Dirk wasn't at his peak yet either in that year...he was great then...already all-time great...but he didn't hit his true peak / prime until 06....and my point is that from 06-11...Dirk did some legendary shit that Luka hasn't matched....and maybe Luka isn't even at his peak yet or close to it....

All we have is what we've seen so far. I don't see how Luka can go down as the best Maverick ever after his first 6 years when Dirk has a 6 year stretch that is better.


If the talk is just as a basketball player and not what they actually accomplished on the floor...I'd still go with Dirk to this point. I'd rather have a guy that plays Dirk's style than Luka's...even in the current NBA. I think it unlocks things on offense that get ignored. Dirk's gravity for a big was insane and opened up so much for his teammates...and he was able to do a lot of that without even touching the ball consistently. Just look at what KP did in the first game...Dirk is that on steroids offensively.

Again, Luka is on the clear path to surpassing Dirk in the future....it's just that his first 6 years so far simply aren't as good as Dirk's best 6 years...given that, combined with Dirk's longevity...I don't know how anyone could rank Luka higher than Dirk all-time to date.

Even winning this series for Luka would at best be equally impressive as to what Dirk did in 2011.

[DMAVS41]

Ultimately I think some like me have underestimated Dirk due to being around when KG/Webber/Duncan/Karl Malone played the power forward.

If Dirk had played today, he'd have been even better and would probably easily be seen as better than KG and more on par with Duncan.

In a weird way, he was kind of a victim of how good he got. The Mavericks were always high up in the standings, but outside of really the 03 team....they never really surrounded him with teams that should be title favorites. They won a shit ton of games in the regular season each year and then often had to play teams that either had better players than Dirk or better teams built around their stars.

When you take a step back and actually evaluate how good he was individually and what the team accomplished from 02-11...I think an objective analysis puts him at a level most people, like Broussard, don't think he was at.

[Phoenix]

I feel like Dirk is gonna end up like David Robinson, a somewhat forgotten superstar because his career locked horns with the likes of Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, KD...despite the fact that his playoff head to head is pretty damn favorable against guys like that who are all considered higher up the GOAT list. This dude was good for 25/10 for his playoff career. Look up how many players are ****ing with that.

Dirk put in the work to make this conversation way too premature, even if Luka wins this year. Take a period of like 05-11 Dirk. 1 MVP, 2 finals, one ring/finals MVP. That's with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, KD all relevant as players( at different stages of their careers, but all superstar talents nevertheless). Luka ain't there yet regardless of the video game numbers.

[NBAGOAT]

luka took a step up this year with how much more versatile he is and the stepback 3 is a great shot for him finally and he's playing passable defense. I would argue dirks never had a year this good since he was never a big playmaker and always played average defense and luka making finals with this team is decently impressive though ofc 06 and 11 are impressive runs by mavs too. jokic has more help, minnesota was pretty talented on paper multiple other west teams with strong star duos or trios.

However yes before this year can easily argue dirk's prime was better than luka. also yea luka at this lvl with an acceptable cast should win a title unless boston keeps it together for 5 years and/or another superteam like okc emerges.

[r0drig0lac]

Dirk always elegant, an amazing guy

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'm talking broadly...if Luka has this kind of help or slightly more...for the next 5 years or so...I'd say it is perfectly reasonable to expect him to win at least 1 title if he is clearly a better player than Dirk ever was. Again, I'm not even arguing that isn't true...I just need to see shit actually be accomplished before I can agree with that. This could be right but predicting the future is impossible. I personally expect that Pop will put the right players around Wembanyama over the next three years and then it will be over for the West. We will see.

[DMAVS41]

This could be right but predicting the future is impossible. I personally expect that Pop will put the right players around Wembanyama over the next three years and then it will be over for the West. We will see.

Maybe, but I see no reason why it will be harder to beat Wemby than it was to beat Duncan when he had great teams around him. If Dirk can beat the 06 Spurs with the cast he had, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Luka to do something similar. Especially when he has a guy like Kyrie as his running mate and Dirk was able to do it with Jason Terry as his.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Maybe, but I see no reason why it will be harder to beat Wemby than it was to beat Duncan when he had great teams around him. If Dirk can beat the 06 Spurs with the cast he had, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Luka to do something similar. Especially when he has a guy like Kyrie as his running mate and Dirk was able to do it with Jason TerrySo again I am wandering into the unsafe territory of predicting greatness. Duncan was the best 4 ever and the foundation for a dynasty so what you're writing is valid. But Duncan was not unsolvable. He was not impossible to score around or dropping 30 on everyone every game and making it look easy. That is what I am expecting from Wembanyama. I am also making the unsafe assumption that Pop still knows how to build a team and will stop the tanking.

[DMAVS41]

So again I am wandering into the unsafe territory of predicting greatness. Duncan was the best 4 ever and the foundation for a dynasty so what you're writing is valid. But Duncan was not unsolvable. He was not impossible to score around or dropping 30 on everyone every game and making it look easy. That is what I am expecting from Wembanyama. I am also making the unsafe assumption that Pop still knows how to build a team and will stop the tanking.

I take your point and likely agree if Wemby turns into something that even Duncan wasn't.

We'll see. Hopefully Luka does something legendary starting tonight and for the rest of this series so he answers that question way ahead of schedule.

[warriorfan]

depends on if you are asking who the best player is/was or counting hardware

[DMAVS41]

depends on if you are asking who the best player is/was or counting hardware

Looks like Luka has some work left on both for now.

[Wally450]

Hopefully he can get one.

[DMAVS41]

30/8/8
31/6/5

Stat lines from our stars that people don't think are stars.

Who says Brown / Tatum are not stars?