When Mavs lose, will I get flowers for PROVING that ball-dominance is inferior??

[3ba11]

Lebron's lottery record on the championship level already proved it, but Luka losing would be the nail in the coffin

so who will step up and give me flowers for SOLVING a major aspect of basketball when Luka loses? What will you guys say about ball-domination then??

Will I get an APOLOGY for getting crapped on for preaching the truth all these years??

[SouBeachTalents]

Depends on if the asylum allows patients to receive gifts.

[jayfan]

They just won 3 straight series as underdogs playing their way. So probably not.


.

[tpols]

3ball is Konex'ing us. He's trying to jinx Boston. :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

Not hedging your way outta this one 3blog.

[King Baron]

If they win, will you give Luka the credit he deserves? Or will you play verbal gymnastics with the reasons he won or just say it was only because of Kyrie?

[BarberSchool]

You don’t have to do this to yourself, 3ball.

Jordan is unequivocally the greatest player ever, to annyone whose opinion matters annd/or is genuine. Nobody ever had an actual chance to best him, not even Kobe, despite Kobe becoming a slightly more aesthetically perfect form of Jordan’s game….kobe’s FG% and physical dominance were never at Jordan’s level, despite his skill and aesthetics slightly passing Jordan’s.

Certainly not LeFraud Shames or fat Luka. Not even parallel universe in shape Luka.

Rest easy, and enjoy this finals. Don’t rob yourself of the joy.

[3ba11]

everyone swears Luka will win.

so what happens when they're wrong..... AGAIN..... If Luka, Lebron and Magic all have weak records on the championship level, then it proves that ball-domination is the inferior brand of ball.. Luka losing these Finals will be the nail in the coffin of ball-domination...

Players will still employ it, but ISH and various knowledgeable people around the world will know that it can't win as much as ball movement - and ball movement is facilitated by jumpshooters or fundamental bigs like Curry, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Tatum, Dirk, Kawhi, Jokic, Duncan, Kareem - these guys have nearly all the rings in the modern era (3-pointer basketball), while ball-dominators were either 2nd option (Magic) or had very low winning frequency in the Finals and in general (Lebron).

[1987_Lakers]

everyone swears Luka will win.

so what happens when they're wrong..... AGAIN..... If Luka, Lebron and Magic all have weak records on the championship level, then it proves that ball-domination is the inferior brand of ball.. Luka losing these Finals will be the nail in the coffin of ball-domination... Players will still employ it, but ISH and various knowledgeable people around the world will know that it can't win as much as ball movement (jumpshooters or fundamental bigs like Curry, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Tatum, Dirk, Kawhi, Jokic, Duncan, Kareem)

LOL

[3ba11]

LOL


Magic is only 5-4 in the Finals, and this includes the bad call on Laimbeer in game 7, so many people feel like he's really 4-5

Regardless, Lebron and Magic are 9-10 in the Finals, so if the greatest ball-dominators ever can't be winners on the championship level, than it's impossible...

Accordingly, history shows that ball-domination is a loser on the championship level - 19 Finals from Bron/Magic has proved it.. And this year Luka will add to the total and make it 9-11 for ball-dominators.. yikes

[1987_Lakers]

So winning 9 chips proves you can't win on a championship level, OP is literally retarded.

[3ba11]

So winning 9 chips proves you can't win on a championship level, OP is literally retarded.


If you lose more than you win, then you're a loser... Literally a losing percentage on the championship level.. Objectively... a loser

Therefore, ball-domination (Bron/Magic) is a loser on the championship level (9-10)... And it will be 9-11 after Luka loses this year, so the losing percentage is getting greater

[CurryOverLebron]

Skip to 0:30 to bypass advertising


https://youtube.com/watch?v=r0934lGZ4dw

[1987_Lakers]

If you lose more than you win, then you're a loser..

That makes every player in history a loser with the exception of Russell.

[3ba11]

That makes every player in history a loser with the exception of Russell.


History shows that on the championship level (so when the player has some help).......................





expert jumpshooters are winners (MJ, Curry, Kobe, Bird, Kawhi)






and ball-dominators are losers (Lebron, Magic, Luka, Oscar, Westbrook, CP3, Harden)








this is the historical record (or it will be after Luka loses this series)

[1987_Lakers]

History shows that on the championship level (so when the player has some help).......................





expert jumpshooters are winners (MJ, Curry, Kobe, Bird, Kawhi)






and ball-dominators are losers (Lebron, Magic, Luka, Oscar, Westbrook, CP3, Harden)








this is the historical record

Bird has a losing record against Magic.

[3ba11]

Bird has a losing record against Magic.


Bird was a winner on the championship level, and Bird also beat Magic as a big underdog in 1984 and it was historic - a GOAT Finals - Bird turned Magic into "Tragic" Johnson

Bird also defeated max defensive attention in that series (carried scoring load on championship level), which is rare.... In order to carry the scoring load and win, it requires great brand of ball at carry-job volume - jumpshooters maintain sufficient brand at carry-job volume, so they can carry the scoring load and win with less help, while ball-dominators lack sufficient brand at carry-job volume, so they need all-time scoring help.

[dankok8]

To be fair, ball dominance does cap a team's ceiling. All the best teams in NBA history were based on ball and man movement not one guy taking the air out of the ball. Magic's Lakers had overwhelming talent. It's easy to make an argument that Showtime are the most talented offensive teams ever. So 5-4 isn't really impressive. If they won 1984 (no Tragic Johnson) then they would be 6-3 and that's about right. 1983, 1989, 1991 they weren't going to win.

That said, OP should give this a rest.

[1987_Lakers]

Bird was a winner on the championship level, and Bird also beat Magic as a big underdog in 1984 and it was historic - a GOAT Finals - Bird turned Magic into "Tragic" Johnson

Bird also defeated max defensive attention in that series (carried scoring load), which is rare.... In order to carry the scoring load and win, it requires great brand of ball at carry-job volume - jumpshooters maintain sufficient brand at carry-job volume, so they can carry the scoring load and win with less help, while ball-dominators lack sufficient brand at carry-job volume, so they need all-time scoring help.

This is FALSE. Celtics were favorites

https://www.sportsoddshistory.com/nba-champs/

Carry on.

[3ba11]

To be fair, ball dominance does cap a team's ceiling. All the best teams in NBA history were based on ball and man movement not one guy taking the air out of the ball. Magic's Lakers had overwhelming talent. It's easy to make an argument that Showtime are the most talented offensive teams ever. So 5-4 isn't really impressive. If they won 1984 (no Tragic Johnson) then they would be 6-3 and that's about right. 1983, 1989, 1991 they weren't going to win.

That said, OP should give this a rest.


Exactly - ball-dominators have a massively losing record on the championship record collectively (Lebron, Magic, Luka, CP3, Harden, Westbrook, Oscar)

compared to the massively-winning record of expert jumpshooters (MJ, Curry, Kobe, Bird, Dirk, Kawhi)

And I'll give it a rest after this Finals, which will prove my thesis once and for all

[sd3035]

I guess Jordan being ball dominant doesn't count?

[3ba11]

I guess Jordan being ball dominant doesn't count?


The media repeatedly misstates usage - usage measures shot attempts, not how long someone holds the ball

So Klay could lead the league in usage if he shot 30 times per game - this is closer to how Jordan led the league in usage - he shot the most without dominating the ball and stopping ball movement.. Expert jumpshooters like Jordan, Kobe or Curry can drop 40 while the ball moves, which maintains chemistry and teammate performance - their skillset allows great chemistry, which allows a great-performing cast, aka great team..

Due to their superior brand of ball and chemistry, expert jumpshooters have a massively-winning record on the championship level collectively (Cury, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Kawhi, Dirk), while ball-dominators have a massively losing record (Magic, Lebron, Luka, Oscar, Westbrook, Harden).

[dankok8]

Exactly - ball-dominators have a massively losing record on the championship record collectively (Lebron, Magic, Luka, CP3, Harden, Westbrook, Oscar)

compared to the massively-winning record of expert jumpshooters (MJ, Curry, Kobe, Bird, Dirk, Kawhi)

And I'll give it a rest after this Finals, which will prove my thesis once and for all

Luka isn't even that ball dominant this year. Kyrie handles the ball quite a bit. In fact, Luka has by far the lowest USG% of his playoff career in this postseason.

Your thesis largely holds up regardless if Mavs win or lose. Most people who know a god damn thing about basketball know that ball dominance isn't good.

[3ba11]

Luka isn't even that ball dominant this year. Kyrie handles the ball quite a bit. In fact, Luka has by far the lowest USG% of his playoff career in this postseason.

Your thesis largely holds up regardless if Mavs win or lose. Most people who know a god damn thing about basketball know that ball dominance isn't good.


There are stats that measure ball-domination and Luka leads them

His assisted rate is 18% - that means teammaters assist him on only 18% of his shots - this is among the lowest in the league and even all-time for high-scorers... Infact, it might be the lowest ever for a high-scorer, aside from maybe Harden and one or two others like maybe Lillard.

The other ball-domination stat is time of possession (the number of minutes each game that a player has the ball in their hands) - it's a point guard stat (the leaders are all point guards) because point guards bring the ball up and use a lot of live dribbles in the halfcourt to set up the offense... Luka leads this stat and players like Luka, Harden, Lebron, Westbrook and SGA are the most ball-dominant players of all-time.

So Luka is extremely ball-dominant and arguably the most ball-dominant high-scorer ever, although Harden and Lebron say hi.... Due to the ball-dominance, teammates are turned into spot-up shooter, which prevents the great chemistry required for a great-performing cast, aka great team..

Luka will be taught this lesson by an expert jumpshooter (Tatum), whose style developed great chemistry over time like other expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ).. However, Luka and the media probably won't learn this lesson because they never did with Lebron - they always blamed lack of roster talent for losses instead of weak chemistry and weaker chemistry than their opponents (Spurs, Nuggets, Warriors, Magic, Mavs).

[sdot_thadon]

Luka isn't even that ball dominant this year. Kyrie handles the ball quite a bit. In fact, Luka has by far the lowest USG% of his playoff career in this postseason.

Your thesis largely holds up regardless if Mavs win or lose. Most people who know a god damn thing about basketball know that ball dominance isn't good.
The place where people who hold these ideas always lose grip on reality is the conviction you speak with. Ball dominance is good, depending on the personnel facilitating it. Most players aren't capable of winning with that particular strategy, a few are. There was a time when leading the league in scoring wasn't considered "championship basketball" until it was. There was a time you couldn't win without a bigman,, until they did. You couldn't win shooting all jumpers or 3s, but someone did. There's more than one way to play the game, seems like you guys are fixated on just one particular style.

[3ba11]

The place where people who hold these ideas always lose grip on reality is the conviction you speak with. Ball dominance is good, depending on the personnel facilitating it. Most players aren't capable of winning with that particular strategy, a few are. There was a time when leading the league in scoring wasn't considered "championship basketball" until it was. There was a time you couldn't win without a bigman,, until they did. You couldn't win shooting all jumpers or 3s, but someone did. There's more than one way to play the game, seems like you guys are fixated on just one particular style.


Ball-domination works against weaker teams but it's a proven loser on the championship level - Magic and Lebron are 9-10 in the Finals, so if those guys can't be winners on the championship level with that style, then no one can...

Overall, history shows that ball-dominators are collectively 10-15 in the Finals (Lebron, Magic, Oscar, Luka, Harden, Westbrook, CP3), while expert jumpshooters are 21-7 (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird, Tatum, Dirk, Kawhi)

It's quite simple, intuitive and backed up by historical results.

Ball-domination imposes spot-up roles and doesn't allow great ball movement or high assist teams... Accordingly, it prevents the great chemistry required for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

[sdot_thadon]

Ball-domination works against weaker teams but it's a proven loser on the championship level - Magic and Lebron are 9-10 in the Finals, so if those guys can't be winners on the championship level with that style, then no one can...

Overall, history shows that ball-dominators are collectively 10-15 in the Finals (Lebron, Magic, Oscar, Luka, Harden, Westbrook, CP3), while expert jumpshooters are 21-7 (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird, Tatum, Dirk, Kawhi)

It's quite simple, intuitive and backed up by historical results.

Ball-domination imposes spot-up roles and doesn't allow great ball movement or high assist teams... Accordingly, it prevents the great chemistry required for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Normally can't be bothered to given you a serious response but here's a bone to.chew on. Ball-domination works.on weaker teams and strong one like the 10's Pacers or Celtics, Bulls. It works on dynasties like the Spurs or 73 win teams like the Warriors when the right guy is in the cockpit. Meanwhile when Mj was a ball dominator? It didn't work on anyone lol. You mean to tell me lil Iverson was more successful as a ball dominator than the goat? Also in the lense of play styles vs Finals records nobody would go with "expert jumpshooters " they say scoring leaders and the record would be much worse as well as most not even being able to make the finals.

And if you're still willing to die on this hill consider this. Judging by historical record I wouldn't go with "expert shooting" as the best chance to win a title. I'd go with sacrificing pretty scoring numbers to play suffocating defense instead like Bill Russell. He's the standard in any conversation about winning, not Mike and "Mike Ball"

[gengiskhan]

If you lose more than you win, then you're a loser... Literally a losing percentage on the championship level.. Objectively... a loser

Therefore, ball-domination (Bron/Magic) is a loser on the championship level (9-10)... And it will be 9-11 after Luka loses this year, so the losing percentage is getting greater

WTF is this gay logic!

Magic saw the floor much better than LBJ
Magic controlled the offensive play of the game sometimes to perfection.
Magic was ultimate floor general running showtime offense.

Magic, stockton deserve to be ball-dominant because of their true PG nature.

LBJ, nor so much. the guy is too slow. he waits waits and waits. He cannot push the offensive flow of the game like Magic and Larry.

please, dont put LBJ in the same discussion. many times, LBJ literally becomes the impediment to the offensive flow of the game.

only time I saw LBJ control the flow of the game to perfection is 51 pts NBA Finals game 1 against GSW.

[gengiskhan]

I guess Jordan being ball dominant doesn't count?

Jordan was forced to dominate the ball 1984-1989. his next best scorer is Oak man.

90s jordan was all off the ball. It was Pippen the pseudo playmaker but mainly facilitator and Bulls

PLUS anchorman Jordan plugging in all the weakness 90s bulls had. and there were some glaring ones. believe me.

[stalkerforlife]

Boston is a super team, buddy.

Luka is forced to create a lot because there's no real third ball handler for the Mavs.

Boston has White, Tatum, Brown, Jrue...they can all create something out of nothing. And all get to conserve energy.

Boston is heavy favorites my guy.

Really won't prove it in this case, but I do agree with your theory as a whole.

[beasted]

This is FALSE. Celtics were favorites

https://www.sportsoddshistory.com/nba-champs/

Carry on.
Aside from that being false, Bird lost as a sidekick in 85. Thoroughly and emphatically outplayed by McHale. He was also outscored while having worse efficiency in 86. The idea that Bird faced "max defensive attention" is complete horse shit.

[tontoz]

For the record Boston is a -230 favorite

If we did a player draft from both teams 5 of the top 7 would be Celtics.

[tpols]

For the record Boston is a -230 favorite

If we did a player draft from both teams 5 of the top 7 would be Celtics.

Vegas is buttering up the suckers to make big money off a Boston L.

There's no way Dallas should be facing such underdog odds.

[tontoz]

Vegas is buttering up the suckers to make big money off a Boston L.

There's no way Dallas should be facing such underdog odds.


I am not sure what to make of this series. On paper the matchup favors Boston. The problem is that Boston typically looks better on paper than they do on the court.

If a game is close in clutch time i have to favor Dallas. They have clearly been playing better than Boston in the playoffs.

[StrongLurk]

If Porzingis was 100% healthy then the Celtics would definitely win. Him being out or not fully ready is a big loss for the C's.

[ShawkFactory]

Vegas is buttering up the suckers to make big money off a Boston L.

There's no way Dallas should be facing such underdog odds.

Wait...are you telling people now that Vegas will set lines based on how it will best benefit them?

[SouBeachTalents]

Wait...are you telling people now that Vegas will set lines based on how it will best benefit them?
Lmao

[tpols]

If Porzingis was 100% healthy then the Celtics would definitely win. Him being out or not fully ready is a big loss for the C's.

That's what a lot of people are hanging their hats on.

Well see how well he can handle Dallas frontcourt.

[tpols]

I am not sure what to make of this series. On paper the matchup favors Boston. The problem is that Boston typically looks better on paper than they do on the court.

If a game is close in clutch time i have to favor Dallas. They have clearly been playing better than Boston in the playoffs.

Yup to the last sentence. Which is why it surprised me they're huge underdogs. I've never seen a bigger gap between reality and odds.

[dankok8]

The place where people who hold these ideas always lose grip on reality is the conviction you speak with. Ball dominance is good, depending on the personnel facilitating it. Most players aren't capable of winning with that particular strategy, a few are. There was a time when leading the league in scoring wasn't considered "championship basketball" until it was. There was a time you couldn't win without a bigman,, until they did. You couldn't win shooting all jumpers or 3s, but someone did. There's more than one way to play the game, seems like you guys are fixated on just one particular style.

Ok maybe not good was an overreaction but it isn't optimal on the highest level. Teams with great ball and man movement and multiple ball handlers hit higher offensive ceilings than heliocentric systems. Of course Showtime Lakers are the big exception but those teams were just insanely stacked offensively. If you need another offensive GOAT (Kareem) and a bunch of other stars, that doesn't really prove the hypothesis wrong.

[dankok8]

There are stats that measure ball-domination and Luka leads them

His assisted rate is 18% - that means teammaters assist him on only 18% of his shots - this is among the lowest in the league and even all-time for high-scorers... Infact, it might be the lowest ever for a high-scorer, aside from maybe Harden and one or two others like maybe Lillard.

The other ball-domination stat is time of possession (the number of minutes each game that a player has the ball in their hands) - it's a point guard stat (the leaders are all point guards) because point guards bring the ball up and use a lot of live dribbles in the halfcourt to set up the offense... Luka leads this stat and players like Luka, Harden, Lebron, Westbrook and SGA are the most ball-dominant players of all-time.

So Luka is extremely ball-dominant and arguably the most ball-dominant high-scorer ever, although Harden and Lebron say hi.... Due to the ball-dominance, teammates are turned into spot-up shooter, which prevents the great chemistry required for a great-performing cast, aka great team..

Luka will be taught this lesson by an expert jumpshooter (Tatum), whose style developed great chemistry over time like other expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ).. However, Luka and the media probably won't learn this lesson because they never did with Lebron - they always blamed lack of roster talent for losses instead of weak chemistry and weaker chemistry than their opponents (Spurs, Nuggets, Warriors, Magic, Mavs).

Luka is an iso scorer then? Not being assisted on his shots doesn't make him ball dominant.

Like I said, this playoffs is Luka's lowest USG% of his career by far. And Mavs are in the Finals. That actually helps your point if you think about it. If Luka was at 40% dominating the ball to his usual extent, the Mavs are probably out early.

[jayfan]

Yup to the last sentence. Which is why it surprised me they're huge underdogs. I've never seen a bigger gap between reality and odds.


They're not huge underdogs at all.

You've got the 64-win #1 overall seed facing a 50-win 5th seed.

Going into each series, Celts were -8000 v. Miami, -1600 v. Cleveland, and -1300 v. Indiana.

Now, despite being at full strength for the first time this playoffs, they're only -230 v. Dallas.

That's a big drop, and a short line.

[tpols]

They're not huge underdogs at all.

You've got the 64-win #1 overall seed facing a 50-win 5th seed.

Going into each series, Celts were -8000 v. Miami, -1600 v. Cleveland, and -1300 v. Indiana.

Now, despite being at full strength for the first time this playoffs, they're only -230 v. Dallas.

That's a big drop, and a short line.

Historically it is a bit. The 2011 Heat were favorites by less over Dallas. Boston has just had a totally joke path thus far in the playoffs with literally every 1st option from every team getting hurt.

[Carbine]

Celtics match up very well to the Mavs and they have five of the best 7 players in the series assuming Portzingus is healthy enough - he should be considering the amount of time off between their last game and game 1 of the finals and how close he was to playing before.

[Charlie Sheen]

Celtics match up very well to the Mavs and they have five of the best 7 players in the series assuming Portzingus is healthy enough - he should be considering the amount of time off between their last game and game 1 of the finals and how close he was to playing before.

That is something you could have said about every opponent the mavs have played. About time to start giving credit to the mavs 3-7 for the players they are right now

[Neal Romer]

If Porzingis was 100% healthy then the Celtics would definitely win. Him being out or not fully ready is a big loss for the C's.

He's going to play and he can move and do everything he normally would at this point. The injury isnt going to diminish his effectiveness.

The reason they've kept him out isnt because he's been unable to play yet, it's to avoid re-injuring it by returning too quickly.

He'll be at 100% from a basketball standpoint to start the finals. The only jeopardy is if it's reinjured. But he's not hobbled at this point. He's gonna be full go unless there's a reinjury.

[NBAGOAT]

That is something you could have said about every opponent the mavs have played. About time to start giving credit to the mavs 3-7 for the players they are right now

Eh just Minnesota. Wolves 3-5 is pretty good but Celtics are still so much better there.

[Charlie Sheen]

Eh just Minnesota. Wolves 3-5 is pretty good but Celtics are still so much better there.

I do not think the difference between the C's guys and how the Mavericks are playing right now is notable enough to bank on in the short term. Track record counts for a lot more projecting across the regular season.

[And1AllDay]

Depends on if the asylum allows patients to receive gifts.

baaaaaang!!!

[sdot_thadon]

Ok maybe not good was an overreaction but it isn't optimal on the highest level. Teams with great ball and man movement and multiple ball handlers hit higher offensive ceilings than heliocentric systems. Of course Showtime Lakers are the big exception but those teams were just insanely stacked offensively. If you need another offensive GOAT (Kareem) and a bunch of other stars, that doesn't really prove the hypothesis wrong.

And I'll reiterate, it depends on who's at the controls. I've got a couple of thoughts screaming at me from this post.

If it's truly a suboptimal way to win, Bron ball Luka ball etc, then shouldn't we give them even more props for being able to win the harder way despite it being suboptimal? Degree of difficulty and all? You guys forget so quickly, we heralded Mike for being able to win not only without a dominant big man, but as a scoring leader because it was said you couldn't win this way. We said no one could win playing like Iverson, but Lebron came in and tweaked the formula a bit and pulled it off. We should be appreciating what we're watching sometimes and hold off on the comparisons.

Thought no.2. You guys are lumping teams into the great ball movement category that don't necessarily deserve it. The 2002 kings had great ball movement, the 2014 spurs had great ball movement, maybe a few others in history. We've gotta ask ourselves a question: Is a team where a single guy puts up 35 shots a game really a team with great ball movement? And is that really what we're going with as the "optimal" style of play to win titles? Or was Mj and Kobe just the guys good enough to pull it off kinda like Lebron with the heliocentric style?

[3ba11]

If it's truly a suboptimal way to win, Bron ball Luka ball etc, then shouldn't we give them even more props for being able to win the harder way despite it being suboptimal?





But they aren't winning - Luka is about to lose in the Finals and Lebron is 22-33 in the Finals or 20-21 with "super-teams" from 11-17' and 20'.

So Lebron is a loser on the championship level (a loser), regardless of cast.

We saw Curry win 3 chips in 4 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, while MJ and Kobe 3-peated - so they proved that they could mostly win with a cast... Otoh, Lebron never had a stretch where he mostly won titles with a cast, which proves that he mostly loses regardless of cast..

It's clear that the superior chemistry generated by expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs yields stretches of mostly winning, while Leborn's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and mostly loses regardless of cast.. A worst-ever Finals record over massive sample confirms that "bron-ball" isn't winning basketball.

[sdot_thadon]

But they aren't winning - Luka is about to lose in the Finals and Lebron is 22-33 in the Finals or 20-21 with "super-teams" from 11-17' and 20'.

So Lebron is a loser on the championship level (a loser), regardless of cast.

We saw Curry win 3 chips in 4 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, while MJ and Kobe 3-peated - so they proved that they could mostly win with a cast... Otoh, Lebron never had a stretch where he mostly won titles with a cast, which proves that he mostly loses regardless of cast..

It's clear that the superior chemistry generated by expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs yields stretches of mostly winning, while Leborn's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and mostly loses regardless of cast.. A worst-ever Finals record over massive sample confirms that "bron-ball" isn't winning basketball.

Lebron has won 4 finals bro, it's over you can't whine them off. And he's basically spent half his career in the finals, that's pretty ultimate proof of concept despite your mental condition keeping you in denial. You want to harp on his record, that's what happens when you actually face teams on your level rather than deeply inferior squads each time you make it. It's kinda like an old boxing trope: what's his resume look like? How many wolrd champions has he defeated? What's his heart like? How does he respond when the chips are down? Lebron's that dude.

[3ba11]

Lebron has won 4 finals bro

in 10 tries!

he was gifted a bunch of extra tries (which provided a nice sample) and he mostly lost with every cast

so he mostly loses regardless of cast

given his lottery record on the championship level and losing tours with so many elite casts and hand-picked preseason favorites, while also having more bad losses than anyone in history (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses) - it's clear that Lebron is the biggest loser in NBA history - it's an extremely legit case

[sdot_thadon]

in 10 tries!

he was gifted a bunch of extra tries (which provided a nice sample) and he mostly lost with every cast

so he mostly loses regardless of cast

given his lottery record on the championship level and losing tours with so many elite casts and hand-picked preseason favorites, while also having more bad losses than anyone in history (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses) - it's clear that Lebron is the biggest loser in NBA history - it's an extremely legit case

Yup exactly right, gifted trips to the finals through teams that couldn't beat him just like MJ's Bulls. Gifted like 2018 where he and Kevin Loves corpse made the finals. Or 2015 where he lost Love to injury and Irving on the road to the finals. Or 2012 losing Bosh for almost a whole series while Wade was getting his knee drained mid series and again before game 7 of the 2013 finals. Try again. Lebron is cemented, this is futile.

[GimmeThat]

there are zombies you can hook up with for quitting on life

[ImKobe]

Lebron has won 4 finals bro, it's over you can't whine them off. And he's basically spent half his career in the finals, that's pretty ultimate proof of concept despite your mental condition keeping you in denial. You want to harp on his record, that's what happens when you actually face teams on your level rather than deeply inferior squads each time you make it. It's kinda like an old boxing trope: what's his resume look like? How many wolrd champions has he defeated? What's his heart like? How does he respond when the chips are down? Lebron's that dude.

4 title runs is great, but a lot of those deep runs were a result of the joke that was the EC, which is why Lebron had Finals runs with teams that had no business being in the Finals tbh, which is why he has the same Finals record as Jerry West (22 - 33).

[Carbine]

Besides the '07 Cavs where they were one of the weakest teams, what exactly were the teams he was on that had no business of being in the finals?

His next four finals were with the Heatles - certainly a worthy team.

The Cavs teams that made it with Kyrie and Love were certainly worthy - they proved that by beating the greatest regular season team ever down 3-1 in the finals.

Lakers were worthy of making it - they won it, by definition they would have to be worthy.

You've got some explaining to do ImKObe

[sdot_thadon]

4 title runs is great, but a lot of those deep runs were a result of the joke that was the EC, which is why Lebron had Finals runs with teams that had no business being in the Finals tbh, which is why he has the same Finals record as Jerry West (22 - 33).

We can play some of these cards with fans young enough not to know better. Sure the 80s east was a bloodbath with 3 atg teams running the table. Ive never heard the weak conference excuse until Lebron needed to be discredited, because you know the 80s west was so diabolical while Magic and Kareem made so many finals right? Never heard a peep about it through because times were different and being a hater was seen as unmanly. And whats even more laughable is the west was also the stronger conference in the 90s, you know while Mj made all of his runs. There was not some impossible conference in the 90s east. You could literally count the serious contenders from that entire decade on a single hand and it really only goes beyond a finger or two if were being generous. We've gotta stop lying about this stuff as fans. Lebron has a tougher Finals record because he faced tougher teams than Mj did. No way he's going 6-6 if he has to face Lebron's opponents instead of his. West had the record he had because he had the misfortune of facing Russell for so many of his finals appearances.

[dankok8]

And I'll reiterate, it depends on who's at the controls. I've got a couple of thoughts screaming at me from this post.

If it's truly a suboptimal way to win, Bron ball Luka ball etc, then shouldn't we give them even more props for being able to win the harder way despite it being suboptimal? Degree of difficulty and all? You guys forget so quickly, we heralded Mike for being able to win not only without a dominant big man, but as a scoring leader because it was said you couldn't win this way. We said no one could win playing like Iverson, but Lebron came in and tweaked the formula a bit and pulled it off. We should be appreciating what we're watching sometimes and hold off on the comparisons.

Thought no.2. You guys are lumping teams into the great ball movement category that don't necessarily deserve it. The 2002 kings had great ball movement, the 2014 spurs had great ball movement, maybe a few others in history. We've gotta ask ourselves a question: Is a team where a single guy puts up 35 shots a game really a team with great ball movement? And is that really what we're going with as the "optimal" style of play to win titles? Or was Mj and Kobe just the guys good enough to pull it off kinda like Lebron with the heliocentric style?

Giving someone more or less credit for style is not something I do. Like I told 3ball though, Luka actually has by far the lowest USG% and lowest time of possession of his career in this postseason and Dallas has gone further than before. That actually helps his point. Even with Lebron's title runs, his USG% in those runs was generally lower than in years his teams weren't serious contenders. Same story.

Who the ball ends up with and ultimately takes the shot is irrelevant when it comes to ball movement and man movement. What you're thinking about with the 2014 Spurs is an equal opportunity offense but for instance Phil Jackson's teams built around MJ and Kobe were absolutely great ball movement teams even if they weren't an equal opportunity offense. You can find highlights of Gasol/Odom for example completely destroying teams with their passing and Kobe doesn't even touch the ball or is just a finisher of a great play they made. Heck even Lebron's teams in Miami had pretty great ball and man movement. Lebron had fewer assists than ever in Miami and that's because other guys like Wade/Chalmers etc. made assists off of his hockey assists. And Lebron himself played more off-ball in Miami with others setting him up. It's not like Lebron passed much better in his second Cleveland stint. He just handled the ball more and when you do that you'll get more assists.

Heliocentric style of ball is pretty clearly flawed. If you want to give guys more credit for winning with that style, go right ahead. I mean in a sense it is carrying a larger load but the best of the best offenses in NBA history have never relied on a single heliocentric style. Magic is probably the only exception but as I said, he had absolutely ridiculously stacked supporting casts. No team ever may pair someone as good as Magic with someone as good as Kareem plus get 2-3 more all-stars/fringe all-stars around them.

[90sgoat]

He's going to play and he can move and do everything he normally would at this point. The injury isnt going to diminish his effectiveness.

The reason they've kept him out isnt because he's been unable to play yet, it's to avoid re-injuring it by returning too quickly.

He'll be at 100% from a basketball standpoint to start the finals. The only jeopardy is if it's reinjured. But he's not hobbled at this point. He's gonna be full go unless there's a reinjury.

We don't really know that.

Zingis is notoriously slow to get back from injury and really sucked both in Mavs and Knicks after a longer injury. He's dependent on his rythm.

[NBAGOAT]

Giving someone more or less credit for style is not something I do. Like I told 3ball though, Luka actually has by far the lowest USG% and lowest time of possession of his career in this postseason and Dallas has gone further than before. That actually helps his point. Even with Lebron's title runs, his USG% in those runs was generally lower than in years his teams weren't serious contenders. Same story.

Who the ball ends up with and ultimately takes the shot is irrelevant when it comes to ball movement and man movement. What you're thinking about with the 2014 Spurs is an equal opportunity offense but for instance Phil Jackson's teams built around MJ and Kobe were absolutely great ball movement teams even if they weren't an equal opportunity offense. You can find highlights of Gasol/Odom for example completely destroying teams with their passing and Kobe doesn't even touch the ball or is just a finisher of a great play they made. Heck even Lebron's teams in Miami had pretty great ball and man movement. Lebron had fewer assists than ever in Miami and that's because other guys like Wade/Chalmers etc. made assists off of his hockey assists. And Lebron himself played more off-ball in Miami with others setting him up. It's not like Lebron passed much better in his second Cleveland stint. He just handled the ball more and when you do that you'll get more assists.

Heliocentric style of ball is pretty clearly flawed. If you want to give guys more credit for winning with that style, go right ahead. I mean in a sense it is carrying a larger load but the best of the best offenses in NBA history have never relied on a single heliocentric style. Magic is probably the only exception but as I said, he had absolutely ridiculously stacked supporting casts. No team ever may pair someone as good as Magic with someone as good as Kareem plus get 2-3 more all-stars/fringe all-stars around them.

Few things. First thing usage rate doesn’t always equal ball dominance like time of possession. Jokic has a much higher usage rate in his prime than Steve nash who was more ball dominant? Likely nash.

More importantly I think there’s a correlation causation problem here. You say Luka usage rates were lower in his deep playoff runs. I argue you have higher usage rates when you have worse teammates. For a non ball dominant superstar, jokics highest usage rate and time of possession is 2022 when Murray/porter were injured. For the most ball dominant superstar, prime Harden had lower usage rate in 18 when cp3 was in his prime and Gordon had a career year. When cp3 declined and hou had westbrook harden had huge usage rate. Obviously when you have better teammates you’re more likely to make a deep playoff run

[GimmeThat]

I legitimately translated ball-dominance as not turning the ball over. still, with all the analytics going on here, it's still as if people on here never once touched a basketball in real life.

[dankok8]

Few things. First thing usage rate doesn’t always equal ball dominance like time of possession. Jokic has a much higher usage rate in his prime than Steve nash who was more ball dominant? Likely nash.

More importantly I think there’s a correlation causation problem here. You say Luka usage rates were lower in his deep playoff runs. I argue you have higher usage rates when you have worse teammates. For a non ball dominant superstar, jokics highest usage rate and time of possession is 2022 when Murray/porter were injured. For the most ball dominant superstar, prime Harden had lower usage rate in 18 when cp3 was in his prime and Gordon had a career year. When cp3 declined and hou had westbrook harden had huge usage rate. Obviously when you have better teammates you’re more likely to make a deep playoff run

For sure usage doesn't equal time of possession. Agree 100%.

What you said about teammates is also true. So super high usage can be a symptom of team weakness as well. However, it's evident that some stars don't optimize their teams by dominating the ball too much as well.

[FKAri]

You don’t have to do this to yourself, 3ball.

Jordan is unequivocally the greatest player ever, to annyone whose opinion matters annd/or is genuine. Nobody ever had an actual chance to best him, not even Kobe, despite Kobe becoming a slightly more aesthetically perfect form of Jordan’s game….kobe’s FG% and physical dominance were never at Jordan’s level, despite his skill and aesthetics slightly passing Jordan’s.

Certainly not LeFraud Shames or fat Luka. Not even parallel universe in shape Luka.

Rest easy, and enjoy this finals. Don’t rob yourself of the joy.

Parallel Universe Luka James on the other hand clears that drunk bald fraud MJ.

[sdot_thadon]

Giving someone more or less credit for style is not something I do. Like I told 3ball though, Luka actually has by far the lowest USG% and lowest time of possession of his career in this postseason and Dallas has gone further than before. That actually helps his point. Even with Lebron's title runs, his USG% in those runs was generally lower than in years his teams weren't serious contenders. Same story.

Who the ball ends up with and ultimately takes the shot is irrelevant when it comes to ball movement and man movement. What you're thinking about with the 2014 Spurs is an equal opportunity offense but for instance Phil Jackson's teams built around MJ and Kobe were absolutely great ball movement teams even if they weren't an equal opportunity offense. You can find highlights of Gasol/Odom for example completely destroying teams with their passing and Kobe doesn't even touch the ball or is just a finisher of a great play they made. Heck even Lebron's teams in Miami had pretty great ball and man movement. Lebron had fewer assists than ever in Miami and that's because other guys like Wade/Chalmers etc. made assists off of his hockey assists. And Lebron himself played more off-ball in Miami with others setting him up. It's not like Lebron passed much better in his second Cleveland stint. He just handled the ball more and when you do that you'll get more assists.

Heliocentric style of ball is pretty clearly flawed. If you want to give guys more credit for winning with that style, go right ahead. I mean in a sense it is carrying a larger load but the best of the best offenses in NBA history have never relied on a single heliocentric style. Magic is probably the only exception but as I said, he had absolutely ridiculously stacked supporting casts. No team ever may pair someone as good as Magic with someone as good as Kareem plus get 2-3 more all-stars/fringe all-stars around them.

But you're doing exactly that when you say a certain style is suboptimal despite it proving successful and resulting in multiple championship parades. What's optimal for one team/player may not be for another. Personnel matters, just because Mj was fruitless with that style doesn't mean it's suboptimal when we clearly saw Lebron have the most success in his era with it. It clearly has been optimal for him, if only he could meet cream puffs every time he made the finals we wouldn't even have these discussions.

And no way the Bulls are in the same class of ball movement as the 2014 spurs or the 2000s kings. You have to have good passing to be championship caliber but I'm saying elite because we're saying one or the other and no in between. Ball dominant or good ball movement teams. It just makes alot less sense to say a team with one guy taking 30 shots is elite ball movement.

[3ba11]

But you're doing exactly that when you say a certain style is suboptimal despite it proving successful and resulting in multiple championship parades. What's optimal for one team/player may not be for another. Personnel matters, just because Mj was fruitless with that style doesn't mean it's suboptimal when we clearly saw Lebron have the most success in his era with it. It clearly has been optimal for him, if only he could meet cream puffs every time he made the finals we wouldn't even have these discussions.

And no way the Bulls are in the same class of ball movement as the 2014 spurs or the 2000s kings. You have to have good passing to be championship caliber but I'm saying elite because we're saying one or the other and no in between. Ball dominant or good ball movement teams. It just makes alot less sense to say a team with one guy taking 30 shots is elite ball movement.


The Pistons were the worst team this year but still won like 12 games or whatever - does that make them a winner and successful?

Lebron couldn't win with ball-dominance - his teams are the "Pistons" of the Finals - lottery record on the championship level

Mostly losing and embarrassing yourself everywhere you go sn't being a winner.. it's being a loser

[SouBeachTalents]

The Pistons were the worst team this year but still won like 12 games or whatever - does that make them a winner and successful?

Lebron couldn't win with ball-dominance - his teams are the "Pistons" of the Finals - lottery record on the championship level

Mostly losing and embarrassing yourself everywhere you go sn't being a winner.. it's being a loser
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/3d8837_98a4dc6810934c2ea62b1b747d0f8159~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_640,h_360,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/3d8837_98a4dc6810934c2ea62b1b747d0f8159~mv2.jpg

Totally embarrassed himself. Nice game by Kyrie tonight btw :lol

[NBAGOAT]

For sure usage doesn't equal time of possession. Agree 100%.

What you said about teammates is also true. So super high usage can be a symptom of team weakness as well. However, it's evident that some stars don't optimize their teams by dominating the ball too much as well.

I would not disagree there. Especially another high usage guy does not necessarily play well with your star. Everyone thought dame and Giannis was the perfect fit and the most talented top duo on paper. Defense was bucks main problem but Dame even with his shooting didn’t have a great offball game and Giannis was not as good a screener as people think he wants the ball too. Add on a 3rd guy in Middleton the fit was clunky. Kyrie is a good fit with a ball dominant guy more of an offball game attacks close outs quickly etc he’s better than dame there. lebron and Luka aren’t elite but have more of an offball game than Giannis.

[jlip]

You don't receive flowers for predicting that the more talented and experienced team that also has homecourt and is heavenly favored to win will win.

[3ba11]

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/3d8837_98a4dc6810934c2ea62b1b747d0f8159~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_640,h_360,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/3d8837_98a4dc6810934c2ea62b1b747d0f8159~mv2.jpg

Totally embarrassed himself. Nice game by Kyrie tonight btw :lol


Now put all the embarrassments and blowouts up there - they outnumber the few narrow wins by a wide margin... He was 1/4 with AD, Love and Wade except the Allen miracle, so he was mostly blown away, and of course his first Cleveland stint was marred with embarrassing loss after embarrassing loss, culminating in the 2010 meltdown that precipitated the decision to collude

[3ba11]

You don't receive flowers for predicting that the more talented and experienced team that also has homecourt and is heavenly favored to win will win.


You guys thought a ball-dominator was going to win the Finals!!!!

Haven't you been watching the last 21 years??.. ball-domination has the lowest winning frequency on the championship level.. For example, the Pistons were the worst team in the league this year but they still won 12 games, so ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka produce teams that are the "Pistons of the Finals" - a lottery record on the championship level and horrible Finals record/team ceiling

[1987_Lakers]

You guys thought a ball-dominator was going to win the Finals!!!!

Haven't you been watching the last 21 years??.

Yes, LeBron won 4 rings.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes, LeBron won 4 rings.
And twice as many FMVP's as Kobe :(

[DMAVS41]

You guys thought a ball-dominator was going to win the Finals!!!!

Haven't you been watching the last 21 years??.. ball-domination has the lowest winning frequency on the championship level.. For example, the Pistons were the worst team in the league this year but they still won 12 games, so ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka produce teams that are the "Pistons of the Finals" - a lottery record on the championship level and horrible Finals record/team ceiling

I think most people agree with you that the Harden / Luka style of play is not optimal in a vacuum, but way too often you ignore that actual strength of the teams. If you switched Tatum and Luka...the Mavs would not even have made it out of the 2nd round.

The reason this Celtics team is going to win, if they do, is because they have better players...this is obvious to anyone that has paid attention and denying that is just idiotic.

Why did the Rockets lose to the Warriors in 18? It wasn't the styles...it was the simple fact that the Warriors had better players....and honestly if CP3 doesn't get hurt, the Rockets likely win that series.

So while I agree to an extent...and certainly think that Luka / Harden, for example, can get a tad over-rated...you see that with the Luka historical argument top 10 and clearly better than Dirk stuff....I think that does speak to your point....it also is true that usually the team with the best players wins.

I think you are better off making your points about how maybe ball dominant players are less likely to upset teams...perhaps it is much harder for Luka / Lebron / Harden types to pull off what Duncan did in 03 or Hakeem did or Dirk did in 11...etc. I haven't really thought about that and perhaps that would be a good argument.

But claiming that the Mavs losing this series will be evidence that Luka's style can't win...is just nonsense...when we all know if you switched Luka and Tatum...that the Celtics would still be in the Finals and the Mavs would almost for sure not even have made the conference finals.

[iamgine]

Will OP get flowers? :eek:

[NBAGOAT]

I think most people agree with you that the Harden / Luka style of play is not optimal in a vacuum, but way too often you ignore that actual strength of the teams. If you switched Tatum and Luka...the Mavs would not even have made it out of the 2nd round.

The reason this Celtics team is going to win, if they do, is because they have better players...this is obvious to anyone that has paid attention and denying that is just idiotic.

Why did the Rockets lose to the Warriors in 18? It wasn't the styles...it was the simple fact that the Warriors had better players....and honestly if CP3 doesn't get hurt, the Rockets likely win that series.

So while I agree to an extent...and certainly think that Luka / Harden, for example, can get a tad over-rated...you see that with the Luka historical argument top 10 and clearly better than Dirk stuff....I think that does speak to your point....it also is true that usually the team with the best players wins.

I think you are better off making your points about how maybe ball dominant players are less likely to upset teams...perhaps it is much harder for Luka / Lebron / Harden types to pull off what Duncan did in 03 or Hakeem did or Dirk did in 11...etc. I haven't really thought about that and perhaps that would be a good argument.

But claiming that the Mavs losing this series will be evidence that Luka's style can't win...is just nonsense...when we all know if you switched Luka and Tatum...that the Celtics would still be in the Finals and the Mavs would almost for sure not even have made the conference finals.

Luka harden and lebron have upset better teams. That’s the positive side of ball dominance they’re allowed to be incredible floor raisers. Beating an elite team like Boston sure that’s a different story

[RRR3]

Luka harden and lebron have upset better teams. That’s the positive side of ball dominance they’re allowed to be incredible floor raisers. Beating an elite team like Boston sure that’s a different story
LeBron has beat better teams than Boston. Luka just isn’t on LeGod’s level.

[DMAVS41]

Luka harden and lebron have upset better teams. That’s the positive side of ball dominance they’re allowed to be incredible floor raisers. Beating an elite team like Boston sure that’s a different story

I was speaking more to sustainability for the duration of a run, but like I said...I was just entertaining something that might make sense.

What doesn't make sense is saying that the Mavs losing this series is because of style of play. It will be because the Celtics can throw out an insanely good lineup with 5 players you could argue are all-star level or better in terms of impact that compliment each other very well.

[NBAGOAT]

LeBron has beat better teams than Boston. Luka just isn’t on LeGod’s level.

Oh yes but that’s when he had a good team around him. I was thinking more those runs where he had poor help. Like Luka beating phx in 2022 is an upset phx had better team. Harden beating clippers in 2015.

[NBAGOAT]

I was speaking more to sustainability for the duration of a run, but like I said...I was just entertaining something that might make sense.

What doesn't make sense is saying that the Mavs losing this series is because of style of play. It will be because the Celtics can throw out an insanely good lineup with 5 players you could argue are all-star level or better in terms of impact that compliment each other very well.

I would argue those runs also sustained by not facing top lvl competition too. If hakeem was facing say the 97 version of Jazz or 93 version of suns he’s an early round exit in 95. If Dirk faces 2010 lakers or 2012 Heat same thing

[3ba11]

I think most people agree with you that the Harden / Luka style of play is not optimal in a vacuum, but way too often you ignore that actual strength of the teams. If you switched Tatum and Luka...the Mavs would not even have made it out of the 2nd round.

The reason this Celtics team is going to win, if they do, is because they have better players...this is obvious to anyone that has paid attention and denying that is just idiotic.]





If we switched Luka and Tatum 5 years ago, this Mavs team would have far superior chemistry and brand of ball than they have now.. Off-ball players like Tatum allow the ball to move, which allows great chemistry development over the years as needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Otoh, Lebron or Luka-ball imposes spot-up roles and doesn't have chemistry, so it relies on sheer talent to win (more help).. This talent-based approach has a lottery record on the championship level

Heck, Brunson would still be on this Mavs team if Tatum built it instead of Luka because Tatum is skilled enough to fit with him.. Expert jumpshooters that can play off-ball can develop great ball movement and chemistry, as needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Hope that helps

[iamgine]

Where is the flowers for OP?

[NBAGOAT]

If we switched Luka and Tatum 5 years ago, this Mavs team would have far superior chemistry and brand of ball than they have now.. Off-ball players like Tatum allow the ball to move, which allows great chemistry development over the years as needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Otoh, Lebron or Luka-ball imposes spot-up roles and doesn't have chemistry, so it relies on sheer talent to win (more help).. This talent-based approach has a lottery record on the championship level

Heck, Brunson would still be on this Mavs team if Tatum built it instead of Luka because Tatum is skilled enough to fit with him.. Expert jumpshooters that can play off-ball can develop great ball movement and chemistry, as needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Hope that helps

That didn’t help at all. Brunson isn’t on the Mavs because they lowballed him(unlike pippen who took the lowball offer). New York also went all out to get him his godfather is the gm of the team his dad is an assistant coach etc

[3ba11]

That didn’t help at all. Brunson isn’t on the Mavs because they lowballed him(unlike pippen who took the lowball offer). New York also went all out to get him his godfather is the gm of the team his dad is an assistant coach etc


Luka didn't fit with Porzingas or Brunson, while Tatum does because he's the better ball player.. Luka is just a dumb ball-dominator that can't win with chemistry and therefore needs more help.

Otoh, Tatum can build great chemistry as an expert jumpshooter that lets the ball move, so he will always have a high chemistry juggernaut that can fit vets like Porzingas into the ball movement system, while Luka isn't good enough to fit with Porzingas

[GimmeThat]

This talent-based approach has a lottery record on the championship level



when players aren't smart enough to play defense, they aren't talented.

[3ba11]

Luka could never have a team like this Celtics team because it requires development of great chemistry... Luka's skillset doesn't develop chemistry because the ball-domination imposes spot up roles, so it can only win via talent and not chemistry... So he could never fit Porzingas into the system like Tatum can

[3ba11]

when players aren't smart enough to play defense, they aren't talented.


Luka's team has max defensive requirements because they faces fresh opponents because his brand doesn't wear them down (ball-domination lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity for offense - more likely to get hot).. Meanwhile, the Mavs are being worn down by zippy ball movement, so they get colder as the game progresses

We saw it for 21 years - Bron ball or Luka ball loses the attrition battle - doesn't apply as much pressure as it faces against Finals comp

[GimmeThat]

Luka didn't fit with Porzingas or Brunson, while Tatum does because he's the better ball player.. Luka is just a dumb ball-dominator that can't win with chemistry and therefore needs more help.

Otoh, Tatum can build great chemistry as an expert jumpshooter that lets the ball move, so he will always have a high chemistry juggernaut that can fit vets like Porzingas into the ball movement system, while Luka isn't good enough to fit with Porzingas

proof that you devote your entire life to steal from other peoples offspring and ways to kill off your own offsprings if that's what it comes down to.

[GimmeThat]

Luka's team has max defensive requirements because they faces fresh opponents because his brand doesn't wear them down (ball-domination lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity for offense - more likely to get hot).. Meanwhile, the Mavs are being worn down by zippy ball movement, so they get colder as the game progresses

We saw it for 21 years - Bron ball or Luka ball loses the attrition battle - doesn't apply as much pressure as it faces against Finals comp

you're saying players should actively look for contested 3's and pass up the open shots, and not rebound the ball whatsoever.

[3ba11]

you're saying players should actively look for contested 3's and pass up the open shots, and not rebound the ball whatsoever.


No dummy - just let the ball move to shift the defense so the defense gets tired and can't play as well on offense

But in order to move the ball, the star player cannot be dominating the ball (live-dribbling) because then the ball doesn't move and the defense gets to rest and be fresh for offense.

But in order for the star player to not dominate the ball, they must be an expert jumpshooter that can play off-ball so the ball can move and the team can develop great chemistry for a great-performing cast, aka great team... Lebron and Luka cannot do this - they cannot play off-ball so the ball doesn't move and the ball-domination imposes spot-up roles - the spot up role approach hinders teammates and lacks the chemistry, needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team

[1987_Lakers]

Kyrie needed LeBron in game 1.

[GimmeThat]

No dummy - just let the ball move to shift the defense so the defense gets tired and can't play as well on offense

But in order to move the ball, the star player cannot be dominating the ball (live-dribbling) because then the ball doesn't move and the defense gets to rest and be fresh for offense.

But in order for the star player to not dominate the ball, they must be an expert jumpshooter that can play off-ball so the ball can move and the team can develop great chemistry for a great-performing cast, aka great team... Lebron and Luka cannot do this - they cannot play off-ball so the ball doesn't move and the ball-domination imposes spot-up roles - the spot up role approach hinders teammates and lacks the chemistry, needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team

proof you've never dribble penetrated once in your life, Mr. Chicks with d*cks

[3ba11]

Kyrie needed LeBron in game 1.


Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games before Silver sabotaged the series, so no.... Kyrie would be down 1-3 with Lebron and need Silver to suspend Jaylen Brown to win, while also having Derrick White and Porzingas get injured.

Btw, Lebron and Ant were given a passes when they were 22-23 years old, yet that's the same age that KD and Westbrook were when Lebron beat them in 2012 - they were just babies in 2012, while the 13' Finals was a teammate bailout and the 16' Finals was a Silver intervention and another teammate bailout.. So Lebron has the worst ring quality ever - of course he was 2nd option for the 2020 playoff run, smh - his rings are complete garbage. and that's without considering that the 4 narrow wins are offset by 6 blowout losses or upsets.

[SouBeachTalents]

Oh shit, 3ball & GimmeThat "debating", clash of the mentally ill titans :applause:

[DMAVS41]

I would argue those runs also sustained by not facing top lvl competition too. If hakeem was facing say the 97 version of Jazz or 93 version of suns he’s an early round exit in 95. If Dirk faces 2010 lakers or 2012 Heat same thing

Agree on some of that, but the 11 Mavs faced top lvl competition for sure. It is only because the Mavs won that people rate teams like the Thunder and Heat lower than they should imo.

[DMAVS41]

If we switched Luka and Tatum 5 years ago, this Mavs team would have far superior chemistry and brand of ball than they have now.. Off-ball players like Tatum allow the ball to move, which allows great chemistry development over the years as needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Otoh, Lebron or Luka-ball imposes spot-up roles and doesn't have chemistry, so it relies on sheer talent to win (more help).. This talent-based approach has a lottery record on the championship level

Heck, Brunson would still be on this Mavs team if Tatum built it instead of Luka because Tatum is skilled enough to fit with him.. Expert jumpshooters that can play off-ball can develop great ball movement and chemistry, as needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Hope that helps

This is nonsense.

The Mavs, with Brunson, made the WCF after upsetting the Suns and lost to the champion...with a team extremely young with little experience.

Brunson is not on the Mavs for one reason...we did not extend him for 4 years 50 million when he asked for it. It was one of the dumbest decisions the Mavs have ever made...which is saying something.

You could argue that the current Celtics team would be worse with Luka than with Tatum...I might actually agree....but with Luka...they'd still be overwhelming favorites to win the title and would for sure still be in the finals.

With Tatum on the Mavs with this team...they likely wouldn't make the 2nd round. Hell, they could have lost to the Clippers.

Even with a Mavs loss here...this is an overachieving year for Luka given his help. That will be 2 years, already, that Luka has led teams that demonstrably overachieved in the playoffs. Kind of hurts your point.

You continue to make terrible arguments in favor of something that is more or less true...you just take it way too far and have no ability to defend it.

[GimmeThat]

Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games before Silver sabotaged the series, so no.... Kyrie would be down 1-3 with Lebron and need Silver to suspend Jaylen Brown to win, while also having Derrick White and Porzingas get injured.

Btw, Lebron and Ant were given a passes when they were 22-23 years old, yet that's the same age that KD and Westbrook were when Lebron beat them in 2012 - they were just babies in 2012, while the 13' Finals was a teammate bailout and the 16' Finals was a Silver intervention and another teammate bailout.. So Lebron has the worst ring quality ever - of course he was 2nd option for the 2020 playoff run, smh - his rings are complete garbage. and that's without considering that the 4 narrow wins are offset by 6 blowout losses or upsets.

the thing is, being bitter in your death bed is only followed by jealousy, and then complete madness.

you give religion a bad name.

[sdot_thadon]

The Pistons were the worst team this year but still won like 12 games or whatever - does that make them a winner and successful?

Lebron couldn't win with ball-dominance - his teams are the "Pistons" of the Finals - lottery record on the championship level

Mostly losing and embarrassing yourself everywhere you go sn't being a winner.. it's being a loser
That's a dumb comparison. Nba titles aren't lotto level comparisons it means you reached the mountain top. Only a deranged retard could somehow pull a negative out of winning 4 rings. Mj has 2 more rings than Leborn while Russell has 5 more than him, that's massive. And by your rainman style logic Russell's celtics played a far more superior brand of basketball thatn Mike's Bulls did correct? As to whether ball dominance is a good strategy? It was for those rosters because they stood at the top in the end. Can't get any better than winning the finals can you?.

[GimmeThat]

Oh shit, 3ball & GimmeThat "debating", clash of the mentally ill titans :applause:

shit indeed, when I go play with some titties, you'll be busy getting shit on by rats

[3ba11]

That's a dumb comparison. Nba titles aren't lotto level comparisons it means you reached the mountain top. Only a deranged retard could somehow pull a negative out of winning 4 rings. Mj has 2 more rings than Leborn while Russell has 5 more than him, that's massive. And by your rainman style logic Russell's celtics played a far more superior brand of basketball thatn Mike's Bulls did correct? As to whether ball dominance is a good strategy? It was for those rosters because they stood at the top in the end. Can't get any better than winning the finals can you?.


Lebron's Finals career was more negative than positive, yet you're acting like the positive is all that matters.. He won 4 times but lost 6, so he's a loser on the championship level, which means he's a loser (didn't win).

[3ba11]

This is nonsense.

The Mavs, with Brunson, made the WCF after upsetting the Suns and lost to the champion...with a team extremely young with little experience.

Brunson is not on the Mavs for one reason...we did not extend him for 4 years 50 million when he asked for it. It was one of the dumbest decisions the Mavs have ever made...which is saying something.

You could argue that the current Celtics team would be worse with Luka than with Tatum...I might actually agree....but with Luka...they'd still be overwhelming favorites to win the title and would for sure still be in the finals.

With Tatum on the Mavs with this team...they likely wouldn't make the 2nd round. Hell, they could have lost to the Clippers.

Even with a Mavs loss here...this is an overachieving year for Luka given his help. That will be 2 years, already, that Luka has led teams that demonstrably overachieved in the playoffs. Kind of hurts your point.

You continue to make terrible arguments in favor of something that is more or less true...you just take it way too far and have no ability to defend it.


We all saw Brunson play like Isiah Thomas when Luka was out of the game and then turn into Ramon Sessions when Luka returned..

So don't play dumb - we all have memories - we all know that Brunson and Porzingas didn't fit well with Luka and there were issues, while both guys are excelling elsewhere.. We saw this with Lebron's teammates - they all played much better elsewhere and this includes Wade, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Westbrook, IT, Clarkson, and many more...

Heck, Kyrie and Wade have proven they can make the Finals without Lebron, so they're objectively superior to Pippen, who couldn't make the Finals without MJ.. For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Wade, Kyrie).. Carry on

[1987_Lakers]

We all saw Brunson play like Isiah Thomas when Luka was out of the game and then turn into Ramon Sessions when Luka returned..

So don't play dumb - we all have memories - we all know that Brunson and Porzingas didn't fit well with Luka and there were issues, while both guys are excelling elsewhere.. We saw this with Lebron's teammates - they all played much better elsewhere and this includes Wade, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Westbrook, IT, Clarkson, and many more...

Heck, Kyrie and Wade have proven they can make the Finals without Lebron, so they're objectively superior to Pippen, who couldn't make the Finals without MJ.. For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Wade, Kyrie).. Carry on

So you admit you lied about Celtics being underdogs in '84.

[3ba11]

So you admit you lied about Celtics being underdogs in '84.


an honest oversight.. thanks for the correction... maybe next time do it without taking a crap in your pants

[1987_Lakers]

an honest oversight.. thanks for the correction... maybe next time do it without taking a crap in your pants

We all have memories, so you lied.

[3ba11]

We all have memories, so you lied.


It's called misremembering, smh

[3ba11]

.
in case anyone was wondering how it feels to be so resoundingly correct:


https://gifdb.com/images/high/happy-jerry-seinfeld-zqsg39hdc861pmbc.gif

https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExcGoxenA3MGp5ZmdiMXptOXVtdXh4MHl scDg5aWNnbnF3cTl5dG1hYSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/Bi6FcO7UoutWM/giphy.webp

[tpols]

The funny thing about this thread is Tatum wasn't even close to the reason they won. They would've won in a blowout if Tatum didn't even play.

Porzingis basically went nuts in the 1st quarter... scored 18 points in 12 minutes an had a sequence where he blocked like 3-4 shots in a row which led to the tidal wave. Horford and White banged 3s during the avalanche as well. Tatum literally had NOTHING to do with why Boston won last night. This is a joke. :lol

[Wardell Curry]

.
in case anyone was wondering how it feels to be so resoundingly correct:

How's that? You think if Luka and Tatum switched teams right now that the Mavericks would somehow win the series? :roll:

That has to be a joke. There's no way your account is real.

[BarberSchool]

.
in case anyone was wondering how it feels to be so resoundingly correct:


https://gifdb.com/images/high/happy-jerry-seinfeld-zqsg39hdc861pmbc.gif

https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExcGoxenA3MGp5ZmdiMXptOXVtdXh4MHl scDg5aWNnbnF3cTl5dG1hYSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/Bi6FcO7UoutWM/giphy.webpDog, you make some fair points in other avenues, but the way you try to explain them, undermines your own assertions.

This thread, is an exercise in self deception. You didn’t crack the code with this one.

Boston off-ball defensive discipline and overall team defensive scheme worked well in game 1, and they massively out-shot Dallas from 3, like they did to many other squads all year long. That and Zingis went off early and sold hella more jerseys in the last 16 hours.

The argument between ball dominance and expert jump shooting isn’t the key that fits this situation. And you know it, despite claiming otherwise with the Jerry gifs.

[3ba11]

How's that? You think if Luka and Tatum switched teams right now that the Mavericks would somehow win the series? :roll:

That has to be a joke. There's no way your account is real.


If they switched teams, Tatum would've fit great with Brunson and the Tatum/Brunson tandem would've been hunting for titles for years and years.. Currently, Tatum is about to win with another Luka-reject and Luka-bad fit in Porzingas... You can't make this stuff up..

So understand how all this works - ball-dominators like Luka impose spot-up roles upon teammates - this is statistical fact by virtue of Luka decreasing his teammates' assists (play-making) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing).. So the phrase "ball-dominators impose spot-up roles" gets the point across about the type of basketball it is.. It's one guy dribbling and 4 guys standing - this isn't 5-man basketball that yields the type of ball movement and chemistry required for great-performing casts, aka great teams...

Since Luka, Lebron, SGA and other ball-dominators cannot rely on developing the best chemistry, they must rely on talent ("more help").. Otoh, expert jumpshooters that can play off-ball like Tatum, Kobe or Curry allow the kind of ball movement and chemistry development over time that yields a great-performing cast, aka great team.. So their skillset has the capacity for great chemistry development and great teams, while Luka and Lebron's doesn't..

Ultimately, Luka and Lebron impose spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Of course, even with these ready-made stars, their brand of ball has a lottery record on the championship level, REGARDLESS OF CAST - their brand simply has a low team ceiling/Finals record.

[Wardell Curry]

If they switched rosters right now, which team would win?

[3ba11]

The funny thing about this thread is Tatum wasn't even close to the reason they won. They would've won in a blowout if Tatum didn't even play.

Porzingis basically went nuts in the 1st quarter... scored 18 points in 12 minutes an had a sequence where he blocked like 3-4 shots in a row which led to the tidal wave. Horford and White banged 3s during the avalanche as well. Tatum literally had NOTHING to do with why Boston won last night. This is a joke. :lol


When we see guys having nights off and someone else seamlessly filling the void, or adding a Luka-reject like Porzingas seamlessly into the system - the only kind of team that can develop this dynasty chemistry is an expert jumpshooter or fundamental big, such as Curry, Jokic, Duncan, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Dirk, Kawhi - these are nearly all the rings of the modern era - expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs.. And they have an insanely-winning combined Finals record, which contrasts with ball-dominators, who have a 10-15 Finals record (Lebron, Luka, Magic, Harden, CP3, Westbrook) despite usually having more help.. They must rely on "more help" (talent) since they can't develop great chemistry.. It should be noted that Oscar was a perennial loser as well.

[3ba11]

If they switched rosters right now, which team would win?


Do you understand that Luka's skillset can never develop a team like what Tatum has and even if he was gifted such a team, he couldn't win nearly as much because the chemistry and brand of ball would be instantly reduced several levels by his presence.

But to answer your question, it doesn't matter that Tatum cannot drag a weak roster like Luka can - no one is saying Tatum is Jordan, Kobe, Curry, or even as good as Luka... When did I say Tatum > Luka?... I just said Tatum's style of play and brand of ball is superior to Luka's because it has the capacity for great chemistry development, as required for a great-performing cast, aka great team.. Now if we take a guy with similar style but superior talent than Tatum like MJ or Kobe, then now we can say that they're better floor-raisers than Luka in addition to being better ceiling raisers/winners.

[tpols]

When we see guys having nights off and someone else seamlessly filling the void, or adding a Luka-reject like Porzingas seamlessly into the system - the only kind of team that can develop this dynasty chemistry is an expert jumpshooter or fundamental big, such as Curry, Jokic, Duncan, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Dirk, Kawhi - these are nearly all the rings of the modern era - expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs.. And they have an insanely-winning combined Finals record, which contrasts with ball-dominators, who have a 10-15 Finals record (Lebron, Luka, Magic, Harden, CP3, Westbrook) despite usually having more help.. They must rely on "more help" (talent) since they can't develop great chemistry.. It should be noted that Oscar was a perennial loser as well.

Bro... I need you to hear me out.

This would be like if Horace Grant or Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley went off for 18 in a quarter with 4 blocks which ignited transition offense. That's what Porzingis did. He literally blew the game open by.himself as 5th option coming off 2 month injury.

Imagine if Jordan had that help. Thats ****ing Pippen on super steroids. :facepalm And that was tatums 5th option.

Porzingis got hurt on Dallas. He missed the games just like he did with the Celtics this year. Difference was the mavs were playing prime Kawhi, Pg, and the clippers on the road, and the Celtics were playing bums so they could afford to rest him.

That's the only difference. It has nothing to do with. chemistry... Dallas literally has great chemistry. The Celtics if Porzingis is gonna play like superstar are unbeatable.

They would even destroy Jordan's Bulls.

[BarberSchool]

Will I get flowers ??

Will I get an APOLOGY for getting crapped on for preaching
https://media.tenor.co/images/421aee6986e10a74dbc52aae7c3965ac/tenor.gif

[ShawkFactory]

Bro... I need you to hear me out.

This would be like if Horace Grant or Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley went off for 18 in a quarter with 4 blocks which ignited transition offense. That's what Porzingis did. He literally blew the game open by.himself as 5th option coming off 2 month injury.

Imagine if Jordan had that help. Thats ****ing Pippen on super steroids. :facepalm And that was tatums 5th option.

Porzingis got hurt on Dallas. He missed the games just like he did with the Celtics this year. Difference was the mavs were playing prime Kawhi, Pg, and the clippers on the road, and the Celtics were playing bums so they could afford to rest him.

That's the only difference. It has nothing to do with. chemistry... Dallas literally has great chemistry. The Celtics if Porzingis is gonna play like superstar are unbeatable.

They would even destroy Jordan's Bulls.

Is he the 5th option though?

[DMAVS41]

We all saw Brunson play like Isiah Thomas when Luka was out of the game and then turn into Ramon Sessions when Luka returned..

So don't play dumb - we all have memories - we all know that Brunson and Porzingas didn't fit well with Luka and there were issues, while both guys are excelling elsewhere.. We saw this with Lebron's teammates - they all played much better elsewhere and this includes Wade, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Westbrook, IT, Clarkson, and many more...

Heck, Kyrie and Wade have proven they can make the Finals without Lebron, so they're objectively superior to Pippen, who couldn't make the Finals without MJ.. For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Wade, Kyrie).. Carry on

Problems with Brunson? They made the WCF and upset the massive favorites to do so. Brunson was playing in the playoffs for the second time if memory serves correctly....he wasn't even fully the player he would turn into....and your conclusion is that because they upset the favorites and then lost to the future champs...there were problems on a team that went like 6 deep and relied on guys like Maxi / Powell / Bertans as their bigs...

You can't be taken seriously if you think the 2022 Mavs underachieved given that team.

Literally every argument you make works against your point.

[DMAVS41]

If they switched teams, Tatum would've fit great with Brunson and the Tatum/Brunson tandem would've been hunting for titles for years and years.. Currently, Tatum is about to win with another Luka-reject and Luka-bad fit in Porzingas... You can't make this stuff up..

So understand how all this works - ball-dominators like Luka impose spot-up roles upon teammates - this is statistical fact by virtue of Luka decreasing his teammates' assists (play-making) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing).. So the phrase "ball-dominators impose spot-up roles" gets the point across about the type of basketball it is.. It's one guy dribbling and 4 guys standing - this isn't 5-man basketball that yields the type of ball movement and chemistry required for great-performing casts, aka great teams...

Since Luka, Lebron, SGA and other ball-dominators cannot rely on developing the best chemistry, they must rely on talent ("more help").. Otoh, expert jumpshooters that can play off-ball like Tatum, Kobe or Curry allow the kind of ball movement and chemistry development over time that yields a great-performing cast, aka great team.. So their skillset has the capacity for great chemistry development and great teams, while Luka and Lebron's doesn't..

Ultimately, Luka and Lebron impose spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Of course, even with these ready-made stars, their brand of ball has a lottery record on the championship level, REGARDLESS OF CAST - their brand simply has a low team ceiling/Finals record.

Luka and Brunson would be hunting titles for years as well. Dude, both the Mavs and Celtics lost to the same team in 2022. If Tatum had played as well as Luka did against the Warriors, the Celtics likely would have won the title.

Tell me more about how Tatum's shit play in the 22 finals would have led the Mavs to a title.

I don't believe anyone is genuinely this stupid.

[DMAVS41]

If they switched rosters right now, which team would win?

We all know the answer.

Just like we all know the Mavs wouldn't even have been in the WCF if they switched places.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron's Finals career was more negative than positive, yet you're acting like the positive is all that matters.. He won 4 times but lost 6, so he's a loser on the championship level, which means he's a loser (didn't win).

Nobody thinks this way but a certain determined groups of stans. We've never judged our athletes negative up front over the positives until a certain year and player. Crazy when you're good enough to change the way we gotta judge your accomplishments. He played better teams than Mj did. Give him Mike's comp in the finals Instead of his and he's running the table even harder buddy. Imagine getting to play Portland or the Kareem less injured worthy lakers instead of the Spurs. Or the Jazz Instead of the Kd Warrirors lol. Standards my man.

[FKAri]

https://d347bo4ltvvnaz.cloudfront.net/images/ScriptureArt_0817_-_Joshua_1_9_NIV_English_157x157.jpg

[3ba11]

How's that? You think if Luka and Tatum switched teams right now that the Mavericks would somehow win the series? :roll:

That has to be a joke. There's no way your account is real.


Luka might be a tad better than Tatum overall, but other expert jumpshooters/off-ball players that have better talent than Tatum like Kobe, MJ, Bird or Curry - these guys are far superior to Luka based on the aforementioned superior brand of ball and also the thing that Tatum doesn't have - pure talent advantage.. They're more talented than Luka and have a superior skillset that includes superior scoring diversity (off-ball)... Luka is kind of the male version of Caitlan where a smart defender can pick off his kind of weak behind-the-back counter move - we saw Brown leaning on this all night.. Basically, his handle is starting to get exposed as rudimentary and pretty 1-dimensional.

[GimmeThat]

Luka might be a tad better than Tatum overall, but other expert jumpshooters/off-ball players that have better talent than Tatum like Kobe, MJ, Bird or Curry - these guys are far superior to Luka based on the aforementioned superior brand of ball and also the thing that Tatum doesn't have - pure talent advantage.. They're more talented than Luka and have a superior skillset that includes superior scoring diversity (off-ball)... Luka is kind of the male version of Caitlan where a smart defender can pick off his kind of weak behind-the-back counter move - we saw Brown leaning on this all night.. Basically, his handle is starting to get exposed as rudimentary and pretty 1-dimensional.

when your parents gave birth to you, they told you to be somebody, it seems you've matured to the stage where you're facing that the idealogy was based on no one wants to be like you, not even yourself, so you keep hearing this echo, it's more important to be somebody than to be happy.

[ELITEpower23]

https://i.imgflip.com/4iwl3k.jpg

[ImKobe]

https://i.imgflip.com/4iwl3k.jpg

MJ won multiple chips with an injured Pip who was horrible on offense. '96 & '98 are some of the greatest 1-man carry jobs on offense.

[Hey Yo]

MJ won multiple chips with an injured Pip who was horrible on offense. '96 & '98 are some of the greatest 1-man carry jobs on offense.
He shot 42% from the field and took double the amount of FGA than Pippen in 98'. In games 5 and 6 Mikey shot a combined 24-61 while taking 35 shots in that game 6

Pip was making a serious case for FMVP until the injury.

[ImKobe]

He shot 42% from the field and took double the amount of FGA than Pippen in 98'. In games 5 and 6 Mikey shot a combined 24-61 while taking 35 shots in that game 6

Pip was making a serious case for FMVP until the injury.

Delusional lol. Through 4 games of that series MJ averaged 32 to Pippen's 20 ppg. It wasn't close.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The advantage to having Tatum over Doncic and the reason he's better for this Celtic team is about having a strong, versatile defender they can have guard anyone on a switch. It has nothing to do with offense, where the Celtics would most likely be better because Doncic is a better passer. Tatum could be a 30+ ppg scorer for Dallas vut he could only help make them a better team than they are now if they surrounded him with defenders like the Celtics have so that the whole defense is extremely strong and a team like that is not easy to build. It took Stevens and Ainge years and they're great GMs.Good GMs don;t let you have guys like White and Holiday easily. Also unlike JB Kyrie Irving is not a two-way player. There have been a number of games vs. good teams that Tatum was off and won anyway because the Celtic defense has nothing for you to attack. Dallas isn't built that way.

[tpols]

If Boston does win we are going to have to hold an ISH wedding and marry 3ball to the truth.

And RealMenWearsPink will be his flower girl. It will be beautiful.

[Hey Yo]

Delusional lol. Through 4 games of that series MJ averaged 32 to Pippen's 20 ppg. It wasn't close.

Rodman got multiple FMVP votes in 96 for his 7ppg

It's all about points, right chico?

[8Ball]

https://i.imgflip.com/4iwl3k.jpg

Jordan ball dominance without Pippen is still 1-9.

[8Ball]

If Boston does win we are going to have to hold an ISH wedding and marry 3ball to the truth.

And RealMenWearsPink will be his flower girl. It will be beautiful.

No other poster would be allowed such a long leash. I question the mods motivations.

[3ba11]

MJ won multiple chips with an injured Pip who was horrible on offense. '96 & '98 are some of the greatest 1-man carry jobs on offense.


Pippen didn't need to be horrible for Jordan to have goat scoring burdens - look at the 93' Finals where Jordan averaged 41 ppg... Pippen shot 0% on threes and 59% from the line (46.9 TS), so he couldn't handle more burden, while both the Suns/Bulls both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg..

When a team is VERIFIED to need 41 ppg from the star like this and it barely ties the opponent's production, this confirms a goat scoring burden for Jordan that no one is remotely near.. The numbers confirm that Jordan scored 38% of his team's points in those 93' Finals, which ties his 98' record..

Jordan's 36 ppg in the 92' Finals was also a goat scoring burden (15 more than sidekick) and 35 and 36 ppg for 92' and 93' runs... The real factor is that Jordan always faced max defensive attention (carried scoring load) more than any player in the history of basketball.. This includes his lowest scoring burden in the 91' Finals, which was still 10 ppg more than his sidekick while playing goat defense mostly on Magic.

All of this is a goat scoring burden because the Bulls were set up to have the least number of scoring options of any contender... The Knicks had Ewing, Starks, X-Man and Mason, while Mark Jackson was all-time floor general and Gerald Wilkins or Oakley would be 3rd or 4th-best player on the Bulls but 7th-best on the Knicks.. Every team was like this with far more scoring options and usually a better team defense (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks - they all had better-ranked defenses).

[TheMan]

He shot 42% from the field and took double the amount of FGA than Pippen in 98'. In games 5 and 6 Mikey shot a combined 24-61 while taking 35 shots in that game 6

Pip was making a serious case for FMVP until the injury.
lol

[1987_Lakers]

https://i.imgflip.com/4iwl3k.jpg

:roll:

[sdot_thadon]

lol

He's not lying, Pippen got talk for fmvp in 98 prior to screwing his back up. ,
It seems like people gotta rub your face in shit to know you're wrong lol.

[3ba11]

He's not lying, Pippen got talk for fmvp in 98 prior to screwing his back up. ,
It seems like people gotta rub your face in shit to know you're wrong lol.


2 articles out of thousands isn't "talk"

it's a google search 25 years after the fact to find the yahoos that wrote off-the-wall articles that they admit were "devils advocate" and "try this on for size" type articles... 2 of 1000's found via google search 25 years later

Again, this isn't "talk"... Show me which game that the announcers or broadcasters were talking about Pippen for FMVP... lol

[sdot_thadon]

2 articles out of thousands isn't "talk"

it's a google search 25 years after the fact to find the yahoos that wrote off-the-wall articles that they admit were "devils advocate" and "try this on for size" type articles... 2 of 1000's found via google search 25 years later

Again, this isn't "talk"... Show me which game that the announcers or broadcasters were talking about Pippen for FMVP... lol

Bruh you have to know that all news from that era isn't easy or free to find anymore , cut the crap. And I'd wager there's more than that out there, it was even said during a finals game by commentary., you dont know shit. :oldlol:Anytime anything good happens for any player not named Jordan you make excuses Ike a sniveling biatch. Right next to my Jordan, Olajuwon,
Barkely and Penny posters in the 90s.....was Scottie. There's no way you were a Bulls fan in the 90s if you hate Pippen, it's illogical and stupid to be honest.

[3ba11]

Bruh you have to know that all news from that era isn't easy or free to find anymore , cut the crap. And I'd wager there's more than that out there, it was even said during a finals game by commentary., you dont know shit. :oldlol:Anytime anything good happens for any player not named Jordan you make excuses Ike a sniveling biatch. Right next to my Jordan, Olajuwon,
Barkely and Penny posters in the 90s.....was Scottie. There's no way you were a Bulls fan in the 90s if you hate Pippen, it's illogical and stupid to be honest.


cut the crap?.. you're the one that is clalming pippen was getting legit "talk" for FMVP in the 98' Finals - there's never been anything more absurd

[r15mohd]

cut the crap?.. you're the one that is clalming pippen was getting legit "talk" for FMVP in the 98' Finals - there's never been anything more absurd


it's really a simple google search with citation lol

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/q7s5w/after_game_4_of_the_1998_final_two_columnists/

[3ba11]

it's really a simple google search with citation lol

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/q7s5w/after_game_4_of_the_1998_final_two_columnists/


reddit isn't "talk"

google search after 25 years to find 2 out of 1000 articles isn't "talk"

show me where broadcasters are talking about Pippen for FMVP in 98'

it never happened... it was an absurd thought

[sdot_thadon]

reddit isn't "talk"

google search after 25 years to find 2 out of 1000 articles isn't "talk"

show me where broadcasters are talking about Pippen for FMVP in 98'

it never happened... it was an absurd thought

Earth to 3blank, the commentary team discussed it during the finals. Its on you to find it yourself my man im not doing the work for you. When you actually rewatch old games its amazing the things you hear and are reminded of. You should try it, im sure youve got a beta max somewhere in your lair. And if you really think the internet gives you easy access to every newspaper article from 25 years ago you're even stupider than you present yourself here.

[SouBeachTalents]

reddit isn't "talk"

google search after 25 years to find 2 out of 1000 articles isn't "talk"

show me where broadcasters are talking about Pippen for FMVP in 98'

it never happened... it was an absurd thought
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up2UONaC65w&t=123s

[And1AllDay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up2UONaC65w&t=123s

isssaaa blooodbath :oldlol:

got his ass 3baLLLLLLL dead in the water again :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

He's not lying, Pippen got talk for fmvp in 98 prior to screwing his back up. ,
It seems like people gotta rub your face in shit to know you're wrong lol.

People/fans old enough to remember know that Pippen was making a big case for FMVP. If Pip wasn't hurt while Mike goes 24-61 the last 2 games... he walks away with it.

[3ba11]

People/fans old enough to remember know that Pippen was making a big case for FMVP. If Pip wasn't hurt while Mike goes 24-61 the last 2 games... he walks away with it.


nonsense and lies - pippen was never mentioned in the coverage of the 98' Finals

[Hey Yo]

24-61

[3ba11]

24-61


Stats through 4 games:


Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1998#174-177-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)..,....... 32/5/2 on 45%... 1.3 tov... 38.6 usg/115 ortg... 21.2 gmsc.. 6.7 clutch pts
Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01/gamelog/1998#173-176-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs).......... 20/7/3 on 47%... 2.5 tov... 23.5 usg/114 ortg... 15.9 gmsc.. 2.7 clutch pts


clutch pts stats here: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional?DateFrom=06/02/1998&DateTo=06/11/1998&PORound=4&Season=1997-98&dir=A&sort=PTS

[Hey Yo]

Defensive stats?

24-61

[sdot_thadon]

People/fans old enough to remember know that Pippen was making a big case for FMVP. If Pip wasn't hurt while Mike goes 24-61 the last 2 games... he walks away with it.

We know, Mj the previous finals admitted he didn't feel right getting the fmvp that time and he don't give an inch so imagine what he really felt. The infamous 54 point game was credited mostly to Pippen wreaking havoc on the Jazz defensively.

[jlip]

3ball has been openly lying and playing that "nobody was claiming that Pippen was being considered for FMVP talk in 1998" for nearly a decade now. I called him out on this in the following post from 2015.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?379795-Jordan-CLEARLY-had-less-help-in-1998-Finals-than-Lebron-s-current-team&p=11482128&viewfull=1#post11482128

[3ba11]

We know, Mj the previous finals admitted he didn't feel right getting the fmvp that time and he don't give an inch so imagine what he really felt. The infamous 54 point game was credited mostly to Pippen wreaking havoc on the Jazz defensively.


How old are you because it sounds like you don't see that MJ was clearly being political and giving lip service to Pippen - MJ was being a real swell guy for saying that and that's what everyone thought at the time, and that's what he wanted everyone to think.

But the reality is that the 97' Finals was worse than the 98' Finals - MJ was unreal during the 97' Finals with 3 game-winning plays and carrying the scoring load while also leading the assists and co-leading the rebounds for that playoff run with rodman... pippen had the lowest clutch points on that run - ostertag, hornacek and company were outscoring pippen in clutch-time.. Stockton outplayed pippen in those finals.. pippen averaged 4 turnovers and 3 assists, with 19 on 42%, with 1.0 clutch point per game.

[sdot_thadon]

How old are you because it sounds like you don't see that MJ was clearly being political and giving lip service to Pippen - MJ was being a real swell guy for saying that and that's what everyone thought at the time, and that's what he wanted everyone to think.

But the reality is that the 97' Finals was worse than the 98' Finals - MJ was unreal during the 97' Finals with 3 game-winning plays and carrying the scoring load while also leading the assists and co-leading the rebounds for that playoff run with rodman... pippen had the lowest clutch points on that run - ostertag, hornacek and company were outscoring pippen in clutch-time.. Stockton outplayed pippen in those finals.. pippen averaged 4 turnovers and 3 assists, with 19 on 42%, with 1.0 clutch point per game.

I was old enouvh then, to be more rational than you are now. Nobody is claiming Pippen deserved fmvp in 97, you're just an idiot that can't read between lines . It's actually pretty funny if you're the age you claim to watch these kids half your age constantly humiliate you over and over in how many threads? You're losing percentage is worse than Lebron could ever dream of. You're Jerry West(rest his soul) in the finals, you're the Bobcats , you're Glass Joe constantly eating that left hook from Lil Mac. The only reason you're here is because when people pass by a punching bag, they can't help but jab it.

[3ba11]

I was old enouvh then, to be more rational than you are now. Nobody is claiming Pippen deserved fmvp in 97, you're just an idiot that can't read between lines . It's actually pretty funny if you're the age you claim to watch these kids half your age constantly humiliate you over and over in how many threads? You're losing percentage is worse than Lebron could ever dream of. You're Jerry West(rest his soul) in the finals, you're the Bobcats , you're Glass Joe constantly eating that left hook from Lil Mac. The only reason you're here is because when people pass by a punching bag, they can't help but jab it.


Stop pretending - I've almost never been beaten in a debate on here - I'm not undefeated but a better record than anyone on here and better predictions, such as Celtics in 5 this year (you had the Mavs) or the Nuggets SWEEPING the 23' Lakers (I was the only one on this forum that voted sweep).. And countless other correct prognostications complete with bragging threads afterwards.. This place is my playground where I'm the bully (assuming the mods allow me to post).

[sdot_thadon]

Stop pretending - I've almost never been beaten in a debate on here - I'm not undefeated but a better record than anyone on here and better predictions, such as Celtics in 5 this year (you had the Mavs) or the Nuggets SWEEPING the 23' Lakers (I was the only one on this forum that voted sweep).. And countless other correct prognostications complete with bragging threads afterwards.. This place is my playground where I'm the bully (assuming the mods allow me to post).

Blahahaha, ok buddy. Nobody but you thinks you win any argument, You're just mentally disturbed.

[Overdrive]

Stop pretending - I've almost never been beaten in a debate on here - I'm not undefeated but a better record than anyone on here and better predictions, such as Celtics in 5 this year (you had the Mavs) or the Nuggets SWEEPING the 23' Lakers (I was the only one on this forum that voted sweep).. And countless other correct prognostications complete with bragging threads afterwards.. This place is my playground where I'm the bully (assuming the mods allow me to post).

Nobody beats you in an argument, because the moment you lose you move the goalposts. Funny enough you often happen to move them so much that you beat yourself from older arguments.

Punching bag fits pretty well.

[3ba11]

Nobody beats you in an argument, because the moment you lose you move the goalposts. Funny enough you often happen to move them so much that you beat yourself from older arguments.

Punching bag fits pretty well.


There's no moving the goal posts on the historical record and that's all my posts are - a recounting of the historical record.

For example, it's historical and statistical fact that high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, SGA, Harden, and Westbrook impose spot-up roles upon teammates, aka they lower their teammates' assists (play-making) and increase their assisted rate (play-finishing)... Lower teammates assists yields low TEAM assists, while the imposition of spot-up roles yields many bad fits like Lebron with Westbrook or Ingram, and Luka with Brunson or Porzingas.. Lebron also had bad fits with Hughes, Wade, Love, Bosh, Kuzma, Jamison and more..

Since high-scoring ball-dominators impose spot-up roles and therefore cannot develop great fits and chemistry, they need more talent (more help) - they're talent-based winners that have a lottery record against great chemistry - this includes Lebron's lottery record against organic chemistry like the Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Mavs and Magic... or these Celtics organic juggernaut destroying Luka.. This juggernaut of chemistry development wouldn't be possible if Tatum's skillset relied on ball-dominance that imposed spot-up roles and bad chemistry.

Again, this is all historical and statistical record.. Let me know if you need a source for any statistic or event cited.

[Overdrive]

There's no moving the goal posts on the historical record and that's all my posts are - a recounting of the historical record.

For example, it's historical and statistical fact that high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, SGA, Harden, and Westbrook impose spot-up roles upon teammates, aka they lower their teammates' assists (play-making) and increase their assisted rate (play-finishing)... Lower teammates assists yields low TEAM assists, while the imposition of spot-up roles yields many bad fits like Lebron with Westbrook or Ingram, and Luka with Brunson or Porzingas.. Lebron also had bad fits with Hughes, Wade, Love, Bosh, Kuzma, Jamison and more..

Since high-scoring ball-dominators impose spot-up roles and therefore cannot develop great fits and chemistry, they need more talent (more help) - they're talent-based winners that have a lottery record against great chemistry - this includes Lebron's lottery record against organic chemistry like the Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Mavs and Magic... or these Celtics organic juggernaut destroying Luka.. This juggernaut of chemistry development wouldn't be possible if Tatum's skillset relied on ball-dominance that imposed spot-up roles and bad chemistry.

Again, this is all historical and statistical record.. Let me know if you need a source for any statistic or event cited.

Jordan has a lottery record without Pippen. Real historical fact.

[3ba11]

Jordan has a lottery record without Pippen. Real historical fact.


yes but that historical fact omits other historical facts, which I will fill in below:

Everyone has a lottery record early in their careers... the only exceptions are guys that landed beside Kareem, Shaq or goat dynasties like the Celtics.. Once MJ got an all-star teammate, he was unbeatable and never needed another one, while everyone else needed many all-star teammates.. MJ is punished for never needing more than a single, low-producing all-star by people saying he "needed" this mental head case since he never won without him.. This is how history gets distorted.

And regarding the impending "b-b-but nothing without Phil!!!" nonsense... Phil arrived at the same time that MJ got an all-star teammate in 1990 - MJ nearly beat the champs in 89' without Phil, so the all-star help was the primary reason MJ started winning and that's the reason that ANY player wins - all-star help - not Phil Jackson, especially a 1st-time nobody coach like Phil was in 91'... Coaches have never been considered part of the "cast" and the only reason Phil has been used in that light is because haters don't see sufficient star power among the actual cast, so they throw Phil in there.

Ultimately, Lebron had a really short peak of 6 years where he achieved all-defense or MVP's (09-14'), while MJ was all-defense and MVP throughout a 10-year period (88-98'), while also being scoring champ - this is the highest and longest peak of all-time (MVP, 1st-team defense & scoring champ throughout a 10-year period).

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan has a lottery record without Pippen. Real historical fact.
https://c.tenor.com/WK9dNLmzTawAAAAC/tenor.gif

[3ba11]

https://c.tenor.com/WK9dNLmzTawAAAAC/tenor.gif



https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/508ldf.gif



Pippen entered the league as a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, and then he missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF as the Bulls lost in 6, while also missing Game 7 of the 90' ECF as the Bulls lost in 7 - both instances were apparently doctor-diagnosed "migraines" that occur in high-pressure situations - Pippen had a medical condition that caused him to have migraines in pressure situations like closeout games - this is not a troll - this is literally the googleable historical record of his "migraines" in the 89' and 90' ECF.

In addition to the debacles from 88-90', Pippen was getting dominated by X-Man in the 92' ECSF - he was melting down as X-Man bullied him in Game 7 before MJ famously played enforcer for Pippen (shown above).. MJ learned from the debacles in 89' and 90' that Pippen's migraine syndrome required you to "stand up for him", as MJ states here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BktAaTOCFGw)... Without Jordan, Pippen had the historic embarrassment and meltdown in the 94' Playoffs.

History shows that whenever a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it like the 89' ECF, 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 93' Finals, 95' ECSF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals, 99' 1st Round, 00' WCF - Pippen had bad production and efficiency in all of these close series.. He was also outplayed by opposing SF's in many other series like the 93' or 95' 1st Rounds and of course the 96' Finals (15.7 on 34%).. He averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and this includes worst-ever shooting splits in 96' and 98'.

Unlike someone like say, Jason Tatum, Pippen lacks "franchise player" scoring ability and is infact "just a dunker" and nothing outside the system.. Accordingly, a team lacks sufficient talent to be a contender if everyone on the team is a worse scorer than Pippen,,, If everyone on a team is a weaker scorer than a simple dunker like Pippen, then the team will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a ready-made and fully-developed 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95' - they were borderline .500 before MJ returned - Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine of all-time and had a nothing-team in less than 18 months...

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/508ldf.gif



Pippen entered the league as a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, and then he missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF as the Bulls lost in 6, while also missing Game 7 of the 90' ECF as the Bulls lost in 7 - both instances were apparently doctor-diagnosed "migraines" that occur in high-pressure situations - Pippen had a medical condition that caused him to have migraines in pressure situations like closeout games - this is not a troll - this is literally the googleable historical record of his "migraines" in the 89' and 90' ECF.

In addition to the debacles from 88-90', Pippen was getting dominated by X-Man in the 92' ECSF - he was melting down as X-Man bullied him in Game 7 before MJ famously played enforcer for Pippen (shown above).. MJ learned from the debacles in 89' and 90' that Pippen's migraine syndrome required you to "stand up for him", as MJ states here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BktAaTOCFGw)... Without Jordan, Pippen had the historic embarrassment and meltdown in the 94' Playoffs.

History shows that whenever a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it like the 89' ECF, 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 93' Finals, 95' ECSF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals, 99' 1st Round, 00' WCF - Pippen had bad production and efficiency in all of these close series.. He was also outplayed by opposing SF's in many other series like the 93' or 95' 1st Rounds and of course the 96' Finals (15.7 on 34%).. He averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and this includes worst-ever shooting splits in 96' and 98'.

Unlike someone like say, Jason Tatum, Pippen lacks "franchise player" scoring ability and is infact "just a dunker" and nothing outside the system.. Accordingly, a team lacks sufficient talent to be a contender if everyone on the team is a worse scorer than Pippen,,, If everyone on a team is a weaker scorer than a simple dunker like Pippen, then the team will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a ready-made and fully-developed 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95' - they were borderline .500 before MJ returned - Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine of all-time and had a nothing-team in less than 18 months...
1-9.

[Overdrive]

yes but that historical fact omits other historical facts, which I will fill in below:

Everyone has a lottery record early in their careers... the only exceptions are guys that landed beside Kareem, Shaq or goat dynasties like the Celtics.. Once MJ got an all-star teammate, he was unbeatable and never needed another one, while everyone else needed many all-star teammates.. MJ is punished for never needing more than a single, low-producing all-star by people saying he "needed" this mental head case since he never won without him.. This is how history gets distorted.

And regarding the impending "b-b-but nothing without Phil!!!" nonsense... Phil arrived at the same time that MJ got an all-star teammate in 1990 - MJ nearly beat the champs in 89' without Phil, so the all-star help was the primary reason MJ started winning and that's the reason that ANY player wins - all-star help - not Phil Jackson, especially a 1st-time nobody coach like Phil was in 91'... Coaches have never been considered part of the "cast" and the only reason Phil has been used in that light is because haters don't see sufficient star power among the actual cast, so they throw Phil in there.

Ultimately, Lebron had a really short peak of 6 years where he achieved all-defense or MVP's (09-14'), while MJ was all-defense and MVP throughout a 10-year period (88-98'), while also being scoring champ - this is the highest and longest peak of all-time (MVP, 1st-team defense & scoring champ throughout a 10-year period).

I omitted nothing. It's a real historical fact.

[3ba11]

I omitted nothing. It's a real historical fact.


A meaningless of fact

Otoh, only MJ was unbeatable the instant he got an all-star teammate

while everyone else needed many all-stars and still won much less

And the all-star teammate Jordan got was outside of the top 100 in PER, while everyone else won much less with top 30 PER teammates

[RRR3]

A meaningless of fact

Otoh, only MJ was unbeatable the instant he got an all-star teammate

while everyone else needed many all-stars and still won much less

And the all-star teammate Jordan got was outside of the top 100 in PER, while everyone else won much less with top 30 PER teammates
MJ had all-star teammates from his sohpomore season on actually. Couldn't start winning until Big Papa Pippen showed up.

[Phoenix]

Stop pretending - I've almost never been beaten in a debate on here - I'm not undefeated but a better record than anyone on here and better predictions, such as Celtics in 5 this year (you had the Mavs) or the Nuggets SWEEPING the 23' Lakers (I was the only one on this forum that voted sweep).. And countless other correct prognostications complete with bragging threads afterwards.. This place is my playground where I'm the bully (assuming the mods allow me to post).

You are a mod. If I, as a regular poster, conducted myself on this forum as you do I'd have been permabanned. There's permabanned accounts on this forum less annoying and invasive to the experience of posting here than you. So your perpetually 'spam threads, get banned, spam threads, get banned' schtick is all bullshit.

[3ba11]

You are a mod. If I, as a regular poster, conducted myself on this forum as you do I'd have been permabanned. There's permabanned accounts on this forum less annoying and invasive to the experience of posting here than you. So your perpetually 'spam threads, get banned, spam threads, get banned' schtick is all bullshit.


aaahh c'mon phoenix, lighten up... hey, maybe your suns will get Lebron? So buck up - help is on the way.

And I don't think my threads are all the same - there are periods of dead threads but I believe that the majority of threads provide another layer of evidence and angle to support the reality that people ignore - the reality that assisted players such as expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs allow greater chemistry and therefore win more with less than ball-dominators.. History bears this out and fleshing out this often-buried historical record is what my threads consist of

[Phoenix]

aaahh c'mon phoenix, lighten up... hey, maybe your suns will get Lebron? So buck up - help is on the way.

And I don't think my threads are all the same - there are periods of dead threads but I believe that the majority of threads provide another layer of evidence and angle to support the reality that people ignore - the reality that assisted players such as expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs allow greater chemistry and therefore win more with less than ball-dominators.. History bears this out and fleshing out this often-buried historical record is what my threads consist of

My name being Phoenix has nothing to do with the Suns, mod, or the region for that matter. You can probably count on one hand the amount of times I've talked about that team.

[Carbine]

It's still amazing to me that Tatum is referred to as an "expert jump shooter"

That is right up there with the best head scratching statements in this boards history.

If he's an expert Jump Shooter, so is Pippen.

[Wardell Curry]

It's still amazing to me that Tatum is referred to as an "expert jump shooter"

That is right up there with the best head scratching statements in this boards history.

If he's an expert Jump Shooter, so is Pippen.

:roll:

[tpols]

Will 3ball be proven correct once again with relation to ball dominance and it's detrimental effects on team chemistry?

Shall we give him his flowers?

[Full Court]

Will 3ball be proven correct once again with relation to ball dominance and it's detrimental effects on team chemistry?

Shall we give him his flowers?

3ball is the smartest poster on ISH.







But what kind of dude gives another dude flowers?

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbrewpound.files.wordpress.com%2F2 019%2F11%2Fcheerfuleleganteyra-max-1mb.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=57c8af9109cf11bbc0f8ff611d5bb30eb3b5d8157cda3d 7e8850f667b3b3a7da&ipo=images

[tontoz]

Luka got to the finals before MJ did.

[BarberSchool]

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51vsnoYpzSL._AC_UX679_.jpg

[ShawkFactory]

Will 3ball be proven correct once again with relation to ball dominance and it's detrimental effects on team chemistry?

Shall we give him his flowers?

Stop being such a lap dog :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Stop being such a lap dog :lol
Embarrassing.

[Phoenix]

Luka got to the finals before MJ did.

It's funny how some people write off Luka as if the dude hasn't had one of the best individual starts to a career ever. ROY, 5 time all-star, 5 time all-NBA, scoring champion,4 top five finishes in MVP voting, finals appearance, 3rd in career PPG behind MJ and Wilt, 2nd in career PPG behind MJ. All in 6 years (the 65 game limit disqualifies him from any awards this year).

[tpols]

Stop being such a lap dog :lol

If you had to choose between roses or daisies what would be your choice?

Roses are red and more passionate but daisies are more subtle and sweet.

What you think?

[ShawkFactory]

If you had to choose between roses or daisies what would be your choice?

Roses are red and more passionate but daisies are more subtle and sweet.

What you think?

Cute analogy but no one is fooled by you deflecting from bumping an 8 month old thread to suck someone off :lol

Particularly an agenda-driven and easy finals prediction thread? You can do better.

[tpols]

It's settled. I'm going to send you roses and 3ball just the daisies.

You seem to be more in love. :lol

[ShawkFactory]

It's settled. I'm going to send you roses and 3ball just the daisies.

You seem to be more in love. :lol

1.5/10

[3ba11]

It's funny how some people write off Luka s


The market his written him off because he won't be getting the max - the market downgraded him 116 million dollars - that's more than I've downgraded him don't you think?... The market has literally proven me right about ball-dominators - there's no greater proof... So I'll take your post as flowers and I have the daisies from tpols, so thank you all

[Phoenix]

The market his written him off because he won't be getting the max - the market downgraded him 116 million dollars - that's more than I've downgraded him don't you think?... The market has literally proven me right about ball-dominators - there's no greater proof... So I'll take your post as flowers and I have the daisies from tpols, so thank you all

Where has it been stated that the Mavs let him go because of being a ball dominator instead of concerns about his conditioning? And since when has 'the market' been one team? Did I miss some reality where he's been bouncing around the league? If his general play-style was the issue they wouldn't have signed his first extension. If they were candid enough to say they have concerns about his work ethic, they would have also said they don't believe his style fits into what they want to do. The Mavs don't seem that interested in being overly flattering about why they let him go. Oh and for the record, I've actually said on here that Luka needs to evolve beyond ball dominance, especially developing off-ball skills. So don't delude yourself into thinking you're saying something I haven't said about Luka myself.

So now that I just validated your existence for the day, go away.