Larry Bird is the Top 5 Greatest Players of All Time : Kobe Bryant

[gengiskhan]

Kobe Bryant explained why Larry Bird is a Top 5 player of all time: "People really forget how great Larry Bird was…the guy was money" (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/kobe-bryant-explained-why-larry-bird-is-a-top-5-player-of-all-time-people-really-forget-how-great-larry-bird-was-the-guy-was-money/ar-BB1oisF4?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=8181d490e4e04ca9980a151cd8171781&ei=11)

I cant stand BrickBe.

I consider him the most overrated, polarizing, selfish All Time Great players ever.

Even I agree with him.






MJ called Bird the greatest small forward of all time

"People ask me all the time who my all-time five top players are," Jordan once said. "And when I start saying Larry, they interrupt me. They say, 'You've got to be kidding me. He can't play with LeBron James!' I tell them, 'You guys don't get it. Larry is far better than any small forward who played the game, and to be honest, I'm still not sure if he is a small forward or a power forward.'"

[tpols]

Nah...

If we really review the tape... guys like Bird don't look nearly as impressive. He's a poor pint sized man's Jokic. Which is still nice but not top 5 all time. The league back then was rudimentary and basic. The 80s was the crack era... he was quite literally competing with crackheads.

Even bum shooters today hit jumpers at Larry Birds level. I posted about this in another thread but even Jrue Holiday... whose biggest weakness is shooting... made way more 3s on a better percentage than Larry Bird ever did.

It's evolution. Just like anything else. You old heads wanna circle jerk on some nostalgia shit but the game has simply progressed.

Any elite team nowadays would destroy great teams of the past except for those that had true behemoths like Wilt and Shaq. And I guess Kareem and Hakeem to a slightly lesser extent. Those are the only old head guys who'd put a dent in the teams of today.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nah...

If we really review the tape... guys like Bird don't look nearly as impressive. He's a poor pint sized man's Jokic. Which is still nice but not top 5 all time. The league back then was rudimentary and basic. The 80s was the crack era... he was quite literally competing with crackheads.

Even bum shooters today hit jumpers at Larry Birds level. I posted about this in another thread but even Jrue Holiday... whose biggest weakness is shooting... made way more 3s on a better percentage than Larry Bird ever did.

It's evolution. Just like anything else. You old heads wanna circle jerk on some nostalgia shit but the game has simply progressed.

Any elite team nowadays would destroy great teams of the past except for those that had true behemoths like Wilt and Shaq. And I guess Kareem and Hakeem to a slightly lesser extent. Those are the only old head guys who'd put a dent in the teams of today.
To me it's the alarming amount of mediocre-pedestrian playoff series he had, for a player with the clutch rep that he does, he would get eviscerated if he played today for his playoff performance most years in his prime.

[ShawkFactory]

Nah...

If we really review the tape... guys like Bird don't look nearly as impressive. He's a poor pint sized man's Jokic. Which is still nice but not top 5 all time. The league back then was rudimentary and basic. The 80s was the crack era... he was quite literally competing with crackheads.

Even bum shooters today hit jumpers at Larry Birds level. I posted about this in another thread but even Jrue Holiday... whose biggest weakness is shooting... made way more 3s on a better percentage than Larry Bird ever did.

It's evolution. Just like anything else. You old heads wanna circle jerk on some nostalgia shit but the game has simply progressed.

Any elite team nowadays would destroy great teams of the past except for those that had true behemoths like Wilt and Shaq. And I guess Kareem and Hakeem to a slightly lesser extent. Those are the only old head guys who'd put a dent in the teams of today.

Using the 3pt stuff, particularly early in his career is foolish. The 3pt line was introduced literally in his rookie year. He grew up playing basketball without it, and thus didn’t incorporate it into his game until later like almost everyone in that era.

He’s one of the best shooters ever without a doubt despite not having 3s as a part of repertoire because no one did at the time. I think he shot 90% from the FT line for his career, which is telling.

[gengiskhan]

To me it's the alarming amount of mediocre-pedestrian playoff series he had, for a player with the clutch rep that he does, he would get eviscerated if he played today for his playoff performance most years in his prime.

whatever bruh!

Allz I know is I got...

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird

You put any other finalists Besides Magic's LAL, a well-oiled super STACKED machine with "showtime" offense run by ultimate floor general in Magic, Bird is easily 5-0 in Finals instead of 3-2 finals record in the 1980s decade.

also, Larry having 4 FMVPs instead of 2 FMVPs. and I mean easily. No debates.

When Larry beat 1984 LAL, it took him 7 games. Thats how much STACKED Magic's LAL were with future FMVP Kareem in 1985.

Hence, the record 3-2 with 2 painful losses to "team of the decade" Magic's LAL.

Why I will always have Larry in Top 5 GOATs. He just ran into Magic and KAJ, two top 5 GOATs ever on same team. KAJ might me old here but very effective all-star and deadly with that "sky hook."

Larry aint never losing to 2011 Mavs with Wade and Bosh on his side. EVER!.

Larry aint ever losing 2004 Finals with super STACKED 2004 LAL vs Pistons or even 2008 Finals with Gasol and Bynum by under performing.

Larry was beaten by "superior" stacked team in head-2-head match up.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah whateva, who cares how he actually played lol, I'm just going to be a stubborn old head who will literally never change my top 5 no matter how obvious it is those players have been surpassed.

[1987_Lakers]

Guys like Magic and Bird can never be top 5 because of their lack of longevity.

[RRR3]

Yeah whateva, who cares how he actually played lol, I'm just going to be a stubborn old head who will literally never change my top 5 no matter how obvious it is those players have been surpassed.
"Troll who tries to provoke you"

[gengiskhan]

Yeah whateva, who cares how he actually played lol, I'm just going to be a stubborn old head who will literally never change my top 5 no matter how obvious it is those players have been surpassed.

Imagine if Bird lost to 2011 Mavs calibre team OR Bird just lost to twin towers of 1986 Ralph and Akeem and has a losing record of 2-3 aka LBJ

Imagine Bird was given a luxury to sabotage celtics like 2004 Kobe....... Just imagine where he would've been ranked.

Bird wont even be Top 25 players.

The amount of pampering Kobe and now LBJ is getting thanks to ESPN and Klutch and being part of LAL nation (Kobe included). its disguisting.

Gen X has literally developed dementia regarding 2004 finals, 2007 finals, 2008 finals, 2011 finals, 2014 finals.

Just to somehow move the GOAT goal post over and over again and somehow push LeBalco and DeadBe into Top 5 GOATs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Imagine if Bird lost to 2011 Mavs calibre team OR Bird just lost to twin towers of 1986 Ralph and Akeem and has a losing record of 2-3 aka LBJ

Imagine Bird was given a luxury to sabotage celtics like 2004 Kobe....... Just imagine where he would've been ranked.

Bird wont even be Top 25 players.

The amount of pampering Kobe and now LBJ is getting thanks to ESPN and Klutch and being part of LAL nation (Kobe included). its disguisting.

Gen X has literally developed dementia regarding 2004 finals, 2007 finals, 2008 finals, 2011 finals, 2014 finals.

Just to somehow move the GOAT goal post over and over again and somehow push LeBalco and DeadBe into Top 5 GOATs.
Classy bro.

Let's not forget Bird averaged 15 ppg on 46%TS in the '81 Finals against a 40 win, while having a guy who never even made an all-star game win FMVP over him.

Again, even with his prime not even half the length of LeBron's, Bird had more bad playoff series.

[SATAN]

Jordan the with another low IQ evaluation of talent.

[Carbine]

Nah...

If we really review the tape... guys like Bird don't look nearly as impressive. He's a poor pint sized man's Jokic. Which is still nice but not top 5 all time. The league back then was rudimentary and basic. The 80s was the crack era... he was quite literally competing with crackheads.

Even bum shooters today hit jumpers at Larry Birds level. I posted about this in another thread but even Jrue Holiday... whose biggest weakness is shooting... made way more 3s on a better percentage than Larry Bird ever did.

It's evolution. Just like anything else. You old heads wanna circle jerk on some nostalgia shit but the game has simply progressed.

Any elite team nowadays would destroy great teams of the past except for those that had true behemoths like Wilt and Shaq. And I guess Kareem and Hakeem to a slightly lesser extent. Those are the only old head guys who'd put a dent in the teams of today.

Jokic is exactly why Bird would still be Bird today. Still a perennial MVP player.

Jokic, like Bird, beat teams with their mind and size and skill. Bird could post you up, he could face you up, come off pin downs, etc in a way that no matter the era, would work just as well now as it did then.

Bird was 6'10 by the way. People often say they are surprised of how big Larry was in person when they saw him for the first time.

[John8204]

As man who ranks players by position and generation I have Bird at 4 greatest SF of all-time....

1. Jordan (SG1)
2. Lebron (PF1)
3. Wilt (C1)
4. Bird (SF1)
5. Kareem (C2)
6. Magic (PG1)
7. Russell (C3)
8. Mikan (C4)
9. Kobe (SG2)
10. Oscar (PG2)

[iamgine]

Have any of you watch Larry Bird play? Not that impressive... (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?470668-Have-any-of-you-watch-Larry-Bird-play-Not-that-impressive)

[j3lademaster]

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.

This was taken from realgm, so I'm not taking credit for the quote.

The post actually inspired me to download and watch the 81 finals to form my own opinion, but outside of a 20 rebound 9 assist performance(which I'll give him tons of credit for, more than any top 10 all time 'playoff killer' deserves for having a passive 18 points) he had that same glazed over choking look Lebron had in 2011. It's widely available, so if you don't believe me go see for yourself. It's honestly amazing seeing 40 year old men make excuses for their childhood heroes still, and completely move the goalposts so said heroes never get surpassed. Let's face it, the players then just didn't face the scrutiny players do now due to simply not enough readily available information.

[j3lademaster]

Jokic is exactly why Bird would still be Bird today. Still a perennial MVP player.

Jokic, like Bird, beat teams with their mind and size and skill. Bird could post you up, he could face you up, come off pin downs, etc in a way that no matter the era, would work just as well now as it did then.

Bird was 6'10 by the way. People often say they are surprised of how big Larry was in person when they saw him for the first time.Jokic is probably one of the top 3-5 most consistent playoff performers ever. Bird otoh, is statistically one of the most erratic all time greats along with Kobe.

[mr4speed]

Classy bro.

Let's not forget Bird averaged 15 ppg on 46%TS in the '81 Finals against a 40 win, while having a guy who never even made an all-star game win FMVP over him.

Again, even with his prime not even half the length of LeBron's, Bird had more bad playoff series.

Lets not forget the 1981 FMVP should have been Bird rather than Maxwell. Bird outplayed Maxwell in games 1,2, and 6. Maxwell outplayed Bird in games 4 and 5. So lets take a look at game 3 = a 23 point blowout win for Boston. Maxwell had 19 points, 10 rebounds and zero assists. Bird had 8 points, 13 rebounds, 10 assists and 5 steals. IMO this game also goes to Bird = better in 4 games of the series. Maxwell in games 1 and 2 scores 10 and then 6 points respectively. Bird in the 4th quarter of game 6 was the Boston player that made the difference and put Houston away. Bird shunned the press and refused interviews and Maxwell was an outspoken and accessible interview. Context is needed here. Thanks.

[mr4speed]

This was taken from realgm, so I'm not taking credit for the quote.

The post actually inspired me to download and watch the 81 finals to form my own opinion, but outside of a 20 rebound 9 assist performance(which I'll give him tons of credit for, more than any top 10 all time 'playoff killer' deserves for having a passive 18 points) he had that same glazed over choking look Lebron had in 2011. It's widely available, so if you don't believe me go see for yourself. It's honestly amazing seeing 40 year old men make excuses for their childhood heroes still, and completely move the goalposts so said heroes never get surpassed. Let's face it, the players then just didn't face the scrutiny players do now due to simply not enough readily available information.

"glazed over choking look"?? Did you see the 4th quarter of game 6?? Bird in game 1 of this series had 18 points and 21 rebounds and in game 2 had 19 points and 21 rebounds again. Robert Reid was Houston's best defender and his assignment was Bird. Moses was a rebounding force and Boston needed a way to neutralize and combat Moses. Bird in game 3 only had 8 points in a big Boston win (23 points) but also had 13 rebounds 10 assists and 5 steals. Bird was in a shooting slump but actually outplayed Maxwell in games 1,2,3 and 6 of this series.

[gengiskhan]

Lets not forget the 1981 FMVP should have been Bird rather than Maxwell. Bird outplayed Maxwell in games 1,2, and 6. Maxwell outplayed Bird in games 4 and 5. So lets take a look at game 3 = a 23 point blowout win for Boston. Maxwell had 19 points, 10 rebounds and zero assists. Bird had 8 points, 13 rebounds, 10 assists and 5 steals. IMO this game also goes to Bird = better in 4 games of the series. Maxwell in games 1 and 2 scores 10 and then 6 points respectively. Bird in the 4th quarter of game 6 was the Boston player that made the difference and put Houston away. Bird shunned the press and refused interviews and Maxwell was an outspoken and accessible interview. Context is needed here. Thanks.

all there arguments are strawmans.

they are looking at stats mostly. Bird was a hybrid player. we dont clearly knows he is a pass first or score first player. the way players around him got better and the way he collected 10 APG in the era when "assists" were not counted as easily as today.

Bird was bit of both. all I saw was Bird push the offensive flow of the game ala magic. unlike LBJ and Kobe who hold on to the ball forever. Bird's Celtics offense rarely stagnated.

what these nay sayers want is 1981 Bird sabotage 1981 Celtics to win FMVP over Maxwell and loose finals like 2004 and 2008 Kobe did. or 2011 LBJ did. But Bird ateast must equal 1980 Magic's FMVP tally. this is their thought process.

Even as 2nd year, Bird time was coming. and 1981 Celtics are not fully his team yet. That Rockets team was dangerous with Moses.

nonetheless, Bird made the most out of what was given in that extremely competitive era. Made a 'Dynasty' as leader (Kobe failed and LBJ failed twice).

Regarding 1981 FMVP. That was Bird's FMVP. He was done dirty. I'll take 15-15-7-2.8 over 17-9.5 in a 6 games series. Because Once you get to 6th or 7th finals game, those "rebounds" and "assists" become invaluable. Even "steals" and "blocks" become invaluable. Once NBA Finals goes deep.

If its a 4 games sweep, I dont mind Maxwell winning FMVP over Bird as both were "weak" FMVP candidates.

Also, keep in mind. NBA wanted to punish Bird (21-10-5) for winning ROOKIE OF THE YEAR beating 1980 Magic (18-8-7).

NBA compensated Rooke Magic ASAP, also wanted to prop up rookie Magic pampered him immediately with 1980 FMVP.

KAREEM was robbed of 1980 FMVP. Game 5, he put series 40-15 with 4 Blks (Magic scored only 14) and gave LAL series lead 3-2.

Magic got 42-15 on house money. this was game 6 and not game 7. LAL were up 3-2. Magic closed it out. injured Kareem paid ultimate price by losing FMVP. despite jaw dropping averages of 33.4-13.6 and whopping 4.6 blocks in such close finishes in 5 games.

Only way 1980 Magic would've won FMVP over Kareem was by putting up 42-15 in Game 7!. till then it was Kareem's FMVP.

1981 would've been 'weak" FMVP for Bird but I think proping up Magic as new smiling, charming, happy 20 YO face has lot to do with Maxwell getting 'weak' FMVP over Bird.

[mr4speed]

all there arguments are strawmans.

they are looking at stats mostly. Bird was a hybrid player. we dont clearly knows he is a pass first or score first player. the way players around him got better and the way he collected 10 APG in the era when "assists" were not counted as easily as today.

Bird was bit of both. all I saw was Bird push the offensive flow of the game ala magic. unlike LBJ and Kobe who hold on to the ball forever. Bird's Celtics offense rarely stagnated.

what these nay sayers want is 1981 Bird sabotage 1981 Celtics to win FMVP over Maxwell and loose finals like 2004 and 2008 Kobe did. or 2011 LBJ did. But Bird ateast must equal 1980 Magic's FMVP tally. this is their thought process.

Even as 2nd year, Bird time was coming. and 1981 Celtics are not fully his team yet. That Rockets team was dangerous with Moses.

nonetheless, Bird made the most out of what was given in that extremely competitive era. Made a 'Dynasty' as leader (Kobe failed and LBJ failed twice).

Regarding 1981 FMVP. That was Bird's FMVP. He was done dirty. I'll take 15-15-7-2.8 over 17-9.5 in a 6 games series. Because Once you get to 6th or 7th finals game, those "rebounds" and "assists" become invaluable. Even "steals" and "blocks" become invaluable. Once NBA Finals goes deep.

If its a 4 games sweep, I dont mind Maxwell winning FMVP over Bird as both were "weak" FMVP candidates.

Also, keep in mind. NBA wanted to punish Bird (21-10-5) for winning ROOKIE OF THE YEAR beating 1980 Magic (18-8-7).

NBA compensated Rooke Magic ASAP, also wanted to prop up rookie Magic pampered him immediately with 1980 FMVP.

KAREEM was robbed of 1980 FMVP. Game 5, he put series 40-15 with 4 Blks (Magic scored only 14) and gave LAL series lead 3-2.

Magic got 42-15 on house money. this was game 6 and not game 7. LAL were up 3-2. Magic closed it out. injured Kareem paid ultimate price by losing FMVP. despite jaw dropping averages of 33.4-13.6 and whopping 4.6 blocks in such close finishes in 5 games.

Only way 1980 Magic would've won FMVP over Kareem was by putting up 42-15 in Game 7!. till then it was Kareem's FMVP.

1981 would've been 'weak" FMVP for Bird but I think proping up Magic as new smiling, charming, happy 20 YO face has lot to do with Maxwell getting 'weak' FMVP over Bird.


What I found interesting was that Kareem was actually voted to win the 1980 FMVP AFTER Magic's great game 6 but because Kareem was not present, the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. This is covered in the book titled "Kareem" pages 104-141. Or you can google Bill Livingston and the 1981 FMVP vote to read what actually happened. Kareem outplayed Magic in games 1,2, 3 and 5 of that series.

[warriorfan]

What I found interesting was that Kareem was actually voted to win the 1980 FMVP AFTER Magic's great game 6 but because Kareem was not present, the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. This is covered in the book titled "Kareem" pages 104-141. Or you can google Bill Livingston and the 1981 FMVP vote to read what actually happened. Kareem outplayed Magic in games 1,2, 3 and 5 of that series.

This was very interesting when I found out about it. 1981 was before my time but the whole “rookie magic playing center and winning the finals and mvp” was always a big time basketball legend.

I will say even that being said it shouldn’t really detract away from Magic’s performance. But it does show the power of narratives.


Another interesting one is Clyde Frazier assist total being inflated by I believe it was 10 assists in game 7 of the nba finals.

[Hey Yo]

This was very interesting when I found out about it. 1981 was before my time but the whole “rookie magic playing center and winning the finals and mvp” was always a big time basketball legend.

I will say even that being said it shouldn’t really detract away from Magic’s performance. But it does show the power of narratives.


Another interesting one is Clyde Frazier assist total being inflated by I believe it was 10 assists in game 7 of the nba finals.

People think that Magic played Center only, but in fact he repped LA for the tip-off then played mostly Forward and Guard.

https://lakersnation.com/this-day-lakers-history-magic-johnson-starts-center-1980-nba-finals-mvp-76ers/

Some don't even realize that Jamal Wilkes put up 37 and 10 in game 6 They just see Magic's point total and believe he carried the scoring load.

[mr4speed]

People think that Magic played Center only, but in fact he repped LA for the tip-off then played mostly Forward and Guard.

https://lakersnation.com/this-day-lakers-history-magic-johnson-starts-center-1980-nba-finals-mvp-76ers/

Some don't even realize that Jamal Wilkes put up 37 and 10 in game 6 They just see Magic's point total and believe he carried the scoring load.

Great point about Wilkes - I believe he was Keith Wilkes then before his religious and name change. That game was his career high. Jim Chones is the player that guarded Dawkins and held Dawkins to 14 points. Magic even admitted he only jumped Center at the start of the game, then focused on pushing the ball upcourt. Magic had a phenomenal game 6 = one of the greatest closeout games , but Magic also set an NBA Finals record for turnovers in 6 games with 30 turnovers.