1991-93 Scottie Pippen vs. 2024 Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown

[Lebron23]

1991-93 Scottie Pippen put up the same finals stats as Tatum and Brown

[Neal Romer]

BIG factuals.

Let em know Lou :bowdown:

[3ba11]

1991-93 Scottie Pippen put up the same finals stats as Tatum and Brown


So did Middletown, Klay, Wiggins or Murray - MJ won 6 with this caliber a sidekick (6/6)

And if you add together Tatum and Brown's Finals stats, you get Jordan's 93' stats and nearly 92'

So it's not the same thing - Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP so he never reached Brown's caliber and he never commanded defensive attention like a true 1st option like Tatum (yet he still had lower TS in the 93' Finals)... Pippen shot 0% from 3 in the 93' Finals

[AirBonner]

Good comparison tbh. Tatum and Brown are like two pippens. As we all know Pippen was the engine that made winning chips possible.

[ShawkFactory]

Good comparison tbh. Tatum and Brown are like two pippens. As we all know Pippen was the engine that made winning chips possible.

They really are.

[Neal Romer]

Good comparison tbh. Tatum and Brown are like two pippens. As we all know Pippen was the engine that made winning chips possible.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Bingo_card_-_B%26W.jpg/800px-Bingo_card_-_B%26W.jpg

[3ba11]

Good comparison tbh. Tatum and Brown are like two pippens. As we all know Pippen was the engine that made winning chips possible.


Pippen wasn't a guy that could come out and start dominating like Brown and obviously not like Tatum - these guys drop 30 all the time, while it was a complete shock when Pippen did - a real rarity.

It's night and day - Pippen was just a dunker and transition player or system player with low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq) - his ceiling would be Shawn Marion or Iguoudala in today's game or Derrick Jones Jr floor.. Remember that Pippen was a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, so he needed to land in the perfect spot to get all the development that he needed - he obviously did alongside the first DPOY/MVP in history.

[kawhileonard2]

Pippen never won finals mvp nor got 4 votes in one.

[Neal Romer]

Pippen wasn't a guy that could come out and start dominating like Brown and obviously not like Tatum - these guys drop 30 all the time, while it was a complete shock when Pippen did - a real rarity.

It's night and day - Pippen was just a dunker and transition player or system player with low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq) - his ceiling would be Shawn Marion or Iguoudala in today's game or Derrick Jones Jr floor.. Remember that Pippen was a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, so he needed to land in the perfect spot to get all the development that he needed - he obviously did alongside the first DPOY/MVP in history.

Pippen taught MJ how to win.

[kawhileonard2]

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/jordanpippen_090910.jpg




“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”




“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”



Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”





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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

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Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.
[/quote]

[Lebron23]

Scottie Pippen averaged 20.9 points, 8.9 rebounds and 7.4 assists in 17 games in the NBA Finals between the 1990-91 and 1992-93 seasons. Better stats than Tatum and Brown in the 2024 NBA finals. Led the Bulls in rebounds assists steals in their playoffs and finals run from 1991-93. He also played some good defense against then 5x NBA champion 3x finals mvp and 3x NBA MVP magic Johnson
In the 1991 NBA finals

[ImKobe]

They're the same tier of player. All-Star but because of their defense you put them a level above of what your average star would be, but their mediocre/inconsistent offense leaves them short of ever being a superstar-level player.

[RRR3]

They're the same tier of player. All-Star but because of their defense you put them a level above of what your average star would be, but their mediocre/inconsistent offense leaves them short of ever being a superstar-level player.
Reminds me of Kobe although he wasn’t even that good at defense.

[3ba11]

They're the same tier of player. All-Star but because of their defense you put them a level above of what your average star would be, but their mediocre/inconsistent offense leaves them short of ever being a superstar-level player.


Tatum and Brown can "take over" games, while Pippen cannot and never did - Tatum and Brown are also 30-point threats at any point in time, while Pippen wasn't capable of 30 points in the playoffs - Pippen only has 6 games with 30 points in 208 games - that's a completely different player than Tatum and Brown.. Pippen was just a dunker and not a viable option in the clutch, while Tatum/Brown require real defensive attention and make big plays down the stretch of every game.

[ImKobe]

Reminds me of Kobe although he wasn’t even that good at defense.

Kobe was way better relative to his league (in both volume and efficiency) than Tatum & Brown are to theirs.

I'm just happy Jaylen won the FMVP. Huge win for us on ISH who actually saw that Jaylen was on Tatum's level (or better) for years. People would get disgusted and call us trolls for saying it and now you can no longer deny it.

Tatum & Brown both are way too limited in their skill to ever come close to Kobe's level of play.

[ImKobe]

Tatum and Brown can "take over" games, while Pippen cannot and never did - Tatum and Brown are also 30-point threats at any point in time, while Pippen wasn't capable of 30 points in the playoffs - Pippen only has 6 games with 30 points in 208 games - that's a completely different player than Tatum and Brown.. Pippen was just a dunker and not a viable option in the clutch, while Tatum/Brown require real defensive attention and make big plays down the stretch of every game.

Yeah but that's just the 3PT chucking era that we're in. Celtics technically have 5 guys who can "take over" a game when they have a hot 3PT shooting night, and by design those guys shoot them 5+ times a game so it just becomes a crapshoot of whoever's hot on a given night.

Neither of them are a true #1 in terms of their production on their team. Derrick White led the Celtics in winshares, BPM & VORP in these Playoffs because he was ultra-efficient in his role with 40% 3PT shooting on 8.5 attempts and with him averaging less than a turnover a game.

[3ba11]

Yeah but that's just the 3PT chucking era that we're in. Celtics technically have 5 guys who can "take over" a game when they have a hot 3PT shooting night, and by design those guys shoot them 5+ times a game so it just becomes a crapshoot of whoever's hot on a given night.

Neither of them are a true #1 in terms of their production on their team. Derrick White led the Celtics in winshares, BPM & VORP in these Playoffs because he was ultra-efficient in his role with 40% 3PT shooting on 8.5 attempts and with him averaging less than a turnover a game.


Neither are a top-tier #1 options but they're still better scorers and #1 options than Pippen - Pippen could not be the best scorer on a champion - people point to Rip Hamilton, Chauncey, or even these Celtics but Pippen couldn't score like any of these guys - he couldn't get 30 in the playoffs!!.. He was mostly a transition player and couldn't be the best scorer on a champion - there just wouldn't be enough talent if a dunker like Pippen was the best scorer on the team..

Tatum and Brown have considerably more offensive skill to control an offensive possession and take over a possession, so they can get by as the best scorer on a champion, while a simple dunker and facilitator like Pippen can't.. they're actually wildly sophisticated on the offensive end compared to Pippen

[RRR3]

Kobe was way better relative to his league (in both volume and efficiency) than Tatum & Brown are to theirs.

I'm just happy Jaylen won the FMVP. Huge win for us on ISH who actually saw that Jaylen was on Tatum's level (or better) for years. People would get disgusted and call us trolls for saying it and now you can no longer deny it.

Tatum & Brown both are way too limited in their skill to ever come close to Kobe's level of play.
It's not a win for you unless you think Tony Parker was better than Duncan in 2007 or Iguodala was better than Curry in 2015. Tatum's shot was off in the finals, that's all.

[ImKobe]

It's not a win for you unless you think Tony Parker was better than Duncan in 2007 or Iguodala was better than Curry in 2015. Tatum's shot was off in the finals, that's all.

Oh it is because Jaylen won two MVPs in this Playoff run and both were well-deserved. Tatum was the best Celtic in only 1 out of the 4 series.

[RRR3]

Oh it is because Jaylen won two MVPs in this Playoff run and both were well-deserved. Tatum was the best Celtic in only 1 out of the 4 series.
Just gonna ignore all the prior years series Tatum was better?

[Axe]

Neither of them are a true #1 in terms of their production on their team. Derrick White led the Celtics in winshares, BPM & VORP in these Playoffs because he was ultra-efficient in his role with 40% 3PT shooting on 8.5 attempts and with him averaging less than a turnover a game.
Lmao you can only be a "true #1" when you're a superstar in a team full of scrubs, ala 2018 lebron. Whereas the gap between him and the next best player on his team is huge. But we all know that teams like that aren't always guaranteed to win against stacked teams (like the 2017 warriors) in a 7-game series under normal circumstances.

[And1AllDay]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Bingo_card_-_B%26W.jpg/800px-Bingo_card_-_B%26W.jpg

bingooooo

[ImKobe]

Just gonna ignore all the prior years series Tatum was better?

Jaylen was the best Celtic in the 2022 Finals as well.

[Carbine]

Brown and Tatum are a lot like Manu and Parker not in terms of play styles, but the importance to the team. They're basically equals in the grand scheme of things.

[RRR3]

Jaylen was the best Celtic in the 2022 Finals as well.
3 series, 1 of which they lost makes up for Tatum being better the rest of the time? You love boasting about your stupidity, it's very weird.

[ImKobe]

3 series, 1 of which they lost makes up for Tatum being better the rest of the time? You love boasting about your stupidity, it's very weird.


They're both Paul George level players like I've been saying for years.

[1987_Lakers]

Jaylen was the best Celtic in the 2022 Finals as well.

Shaq was the best laker in every finals from 2000-2002

[Round Mound]

You guys don't miss MY Scottie Pippen. I've already explained how good he was. Tatum is better offensively in terms of shooting as a scorer. In the rest Pippen is better.

[3ba11]

You guys don't miss MY Scottie Pippen. I've already explained how good he was. Tatum is better offensively in terms of shooting as a scorer. In the rest Pippen is better.


He had 6 thirty-point playoff games in his career - he stunk but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade

To win with Pippen, the 1st option must average 30 in the playoffs and 10+ more than Pippen in every series.. only 1 guy could do that, otherwise Pippen can't win as sidekick and must be 3rd option or worse.

Unlike someone like KAT, who was good immediately and made All-NBA on his own, Pippen had to win a couple titles to start getting all-NBA, just like Pau, Klay, Parker and a lot of winning sidekicks..

Pippen missed game 6 of the 89' ECF and lost in 6 games, and then he missed game 7 in 90' and they lost in 7 - he cost the Bulls titles... MJ almost beat the Pistons with nothing before Phil arrived - Phil simply arrived at the same time that MJ got all-star help, and MJ was unbeatable with all-star help

[ShawkFactory]

That era of Pippen was a similar level of impact as Brown now. He played great defense in this series and was much improved overall on that end this year but Pippen at that time was a killer on that end. Athletically he was capable of a ton and had a slightly better feel.

I’ve watched a lot of those playoff Bulls games and regardless of what the stat sheet said Pippen came up with a ton of huge momentum-turning plays, much like Brown did. Not necessarily the shot-making at the end because of course that was MJ time but energy seemed to turn for the team when he’d do something big, whether that be defensively leading to transition or a flurry of scoring.

Accounting for era and the scoring environment I’d probably say Pippen had a slightly better overall package but it’s close.

Tatum is a different story because I feel like his game is similar in a lot of ways. Like if Pippen grew up in this era with the 3 being more emphasized I could see it looking close. Tatum has a better handle and shot off the dribble but Pippen had the kind of no-hesitation stuff at times that Tatum still lacks in spurts.

[3ba11]

.
.
30-point playoff games

Pippen...... 6 (208 games)







That era of Pippen was a similar level of impact as Brown now. He played great defense in this series and was much improved overall on that end this year but Pippen at that time was a killer on that end. Athletically he was capable of a ton and had a slightly better feel.

I’ve watched a lot of those playoff Bulls games and regardless of what the stat sheet said Pippen came up with a ton of huge momentum-turning plays, much like Brown did. Not necessarily the shot-making at the end because of course that was MJ time but energy seemed to turn for the team when he’d do something big, whether that be defensively leading to transition or a flurry of scoring.

Accounting for era and the scoring environment I’d probably say Pippen had a slightly better overall package but it’s close.

Tatum is a different story because I feel like his game is similar in a lot of ways. Like if Pippen grew up in this era with the 3 being more emphasized I could see it looking close. Tatum has a better handle and shot off the dribble but Pippen had the kind of no-hesitation stuff at times that Tatum still lacks in spurts.




There's a difference between players that are capable of elite scoring like Brown or Tatum and guys that aren't a threat for 30-point games like Pippen and are primarily dunkers and transition players.

Pippen "bridge-collapsed" the Bulls by missing the closeout games each year in 89' and 90', so he wasn't trusted in 91' to take on a massive assignment like Magic in his first Finals as the primary defender - it wasn't even considered - MJ would guard Magic for most of the series - period.

This idea that Pippen was viewed like Tatum or Brown as an elite producer that could average 30 on his own team and trusted with primary matchups against the best players like Brown vs Luka, or Tatum vs KD, or MJ vs Magic, Drexler and Miller (top 75 guys)... Pure nonsense - Pippen was never viewed as this caliber of player or trusted with this kind of matchup..

Pippen was also never responsible for taking a big shot or even being a major factor in the clutch or 4th quarters - he wasn't viewed like that and no one knocked him when he frequently had little or no points for entire 4th quarters or was outscored for entire title runs by Kukoc in the 4th.. No one tracked his performance - they knew he was basically a dunker - a Shawn Marion type on offense, or Iggy maybe.. Even Iggy was better 1-on-1 off-the-dribble than Pippen.

Again, Tatum and Brown would both average about 30 on their own teams (Tatum possibly more) and both averaged more for many playoffs runs than Pippen ever did... And their higher averages are derived by things that Pippen can't do but the modern era requires - 3-point shooting and perimeter isolations - so you can't say that Pippen would average more in today's game when he's bad at the 2 things that achieve higher averages in today's game.

[Carbine]

Pippen in 91 outscored New York's highest scorer in their playoff matchup for the series.

He was 2 PPG away from matching Charles Barkley, the best offensive PF of his era and bonafide #1 option in the second round series vs Philly.

He outscored the Pistons #1 scorer in the WCF

And he outscored the Lakers #1 option in the finals.

This goes against everything you stand for but they are facts.

[Carbine]

In '92 Pippen outscored the Miami Heats #1 option for the series in their first round matchup.

Knicks series in the second round he did not score as he had for the previous 5 straight series. McDaniel scored 2 more PPG than he did.

In the ECF Pippen outscored the #1 option from the Cavs

And in the finals he outscored the #2 option from the Trail Blazers and in my opinion having watched the entire series, every minute of it, Pippen was equal to Drexler as an overall impactful player. I could argue more.

This is not good news for your agenda. 7 of the first 8 series of the first three peat he was scoring more than the other teams #2 and often times more than the other teams #1 option.

[Carbine]

In the '93 playoffs Pippen failed to outscored the #2 option on the Hawks in the first round.

In the semi final Pippen outscored the #1 option of the Cavs.

In the ECF against the Knicks Pippen destroyed the #2 option Starks in scoring production. It wasn't close. Pippen was closer to Ewing (22.5 to 25.5) than Pippen was to Starks (22.5 to 15)

In the finals the same thing happened. Pippen outscored #2 option Kevin Johnson by a lot. You've said countless times how X Man "destroyed" Pippen by averaging 2 more PPG than Pippen did for the series.... What does 4 PPG difference mean here in terms of Pippen over Johnson? Is Pippen his biological father after that series?

Big yikes all around for your agenda.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Preface: the comparisons I am about to make have nothing to do with how good these players are overall. But I expect some stupid ass to take them that way anyhow.

Some players have certain similarities to other players but none of these comparisons are perfect. Brown doesn't average 30, possibly could on a team that didn't have talent but likely never will. But because of his aggressive approach to scoring he's more like Jordan than Pippen. He has a midrange jumper that he can always get off and hit at a high level it he isn't being challenged on it by a big that reminds me of Jordan's go-to fade. Brown's best offensive game is based on short jumpers and attacking the basket. He has become unselfish enough to read the defense and hit an open teammate but at his core he's a pure scorer. The legend he has trained most with is Tracy McGrady, and T-Mac may be responsible for him focusing on the development of the midrange game but he doesn't dribble like McGrady and doesn't have that kind of length.

Tatum on the other hand is famously a Kobe disciple. And his desire to emulate Bryant isn't a bad thing, has probably aided him in various ways. But that's not the kind of player he's becoming. He probably could have been a lot like McGrady due to his superior length but the make up of the team around him and the way he is defended are molding him into more of a point forward like Scottie Pippen. He doesn't utilize a bank shot at all but due to the way he is surrounded by shooters and ganged up on whenever he goes to the basket passing to open teammates is just a natural response. Now he does have a scorer's mentality but he is not a aggressive about it as JB. And that's not a bad thing, especially with them being teammates.

[3ba11]

Pippen in 91 outscored New York's highest scorer in their playoff matchup for the series.

He was 2 PPG away from matching Charles Barkley, the best offensive PF of his era and bonafide #1 option in the second round series vs Philly.

He outscored the Pistons #1 scorer in the WCF

And he outscored the Lakers #1 option in the finals.

This goes against everything you stand for but they are facts.


Pippen was usually destroyed by the opposing SF (his matchup), such as Larry Nance, Johnny Newman, Mark Aguirre, X-Man, Dominique, Larry Johnson, Schrempf, Juwan Howard, Tracy Murray, Glen Rice and many more - he only outscored guards that were underperforming against MJ like Dumars, Isiah, Starks, Price, Harper, Hawkins, Porter, Stockton, Hornacek, Majerle and more.. ... :confusedshrug:

Pippen also had worst-ever efficiency, so even if he tied someone in scoring like Smits in the 98' ECF, he would shoot like 39% and therefore get outplayed overall.. Pippen shot 0% on threes in the 93' Finals and 59% from the line (46.9 true shooting overall), while letting 4th option Dumas get 16 on 57% - this weak 2-way play forced MJ to average 41 ppg.

Pippen's efficiency for the 93' Playoffs and also 96-98' Playoffs is literally the worst ever - no one in playoff history had worse shooting splits for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - and these were title runs for Pippen (96' and 98')..

[ShawkFactory]

Preface: the comparisons I am about to make have nothing to do with how good these players are overall. But I expect some stupid ass to take them that way anyhow.

Some players have certain similarities to other players but none of these comparisons are perfect. Brown doesn't average 30, possibly could on a team that didn't have talent but likely never will. But because of his aggressive approach to scoring he's more like Jordan than Pippen. He has a midrange jumper that he can always get off and hit at a high level it he isn't being challenged on it by a big that reminds me of Jordan's go-to fade. Brown's best offensive game is based on short jumpers and attacking the basket. He has become unselfish enough to read the defense and hit an open teammate but at his core he's a pure scorer. The legend he has trained most with is Tracy McGrady, and T-Mac may be responsible for him focusing on the development of the midrange game but he doesn't dribble like McGrady and doesn't have that kind of length.

Tatum on the other hand is famously a Kobe disciple. And his desire to emulate Bryant isn't a bad thing, has probably aided him in various ways. But that's not the kind of player he's becoming. He probably could have been a lot like McGrady due to his superior length but the make up of the team around him and the way he is defended are molding him into more of a point forward like Scottie Pippen. He doesn't utilize a bank shot at all but due to the way he is surrounded by shooters and ganged up on whenever he goes to the basket passing to open teammates is just a natural response. Now he does have a scorer's mentality but he is not a aggressive about it as JB. And that's not a bad thing, especially with them being teammates.

Yea the connections he's is making between his one game and Jaylen's has been fun to watch. He's definitely the better overall player I think and that will come forward a majority of the time. But he also seems unbothered by someone else taking over and claiming the spotlight.

I expect a huge run in the next 2-3 years with them.