"Advance Metrics" Finally Destroying MJs GOAT Status for Good

[gengiskhan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB5aXkOljgw

We all knew this was coming!

Today's day and age. critics, fans and media use "Advance Metrics" instead of old School "Statistical Analysis" (could be due to stat padding) written on back of old Baseball Cards to Pick their GOAT.

MJ will eventually be relegated to Top 5 at best!.......and its finally happening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB5aXkOljgw

[FKAri]

Always knew this bum bald bitch was a fraud. Thanks for sharing.

[j3lademaster]

No one ever denied MJ’s advanced metrics. MJ, Lebron and Jokic basically stand alone when it comes to advanced stats in The playoffs.

And yes, numbers matter. Give me some nerdy econ grad like Belichick, DePodesta, or Morey over some dumb old head who was “baptized in the game” like Magic, Jordan or Isiah any day.

[sdot_thadon]

Never doubting his greatness, BUT.....They literally used him as a guidline for a ton of advanced metrics, basically if you made a formula where he didn't appear near the very top, you went back to the drawing board or tweaked it until he did lol.

[1987_Lakers]

Never doubting his greatness, BUT.....They literally used him as a guidline for a ton of advanced metrics, basically if you made a formula where he didn't appear near the very top, you went back to the drawing board or tweaked it until he did lol.

Yea, they did that with PER.

[3ba11]

Only MJ was unbeatable with just 1 all-star teammate

Only MJ won titles as usage champ

Only MJ won multiple titles as scoring champ

Only MJ defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load) - no one carried the scoring load anywhere NEAR his level

Only MJ three-peated twice in the modern era - Shaq/Kobe, Wade/Lebron and KD/Curry failed - let that sink in

Only MJ never had a bad series

Only MJ never lost with 1 or 2 seeds

Only MJ never lost with homecourt

Only MJ won titles with a teammate shooting worse than anyone ever has (pippen had the worst shooting splits ever in 96/98 PO)

Only MJ is undefeated on the championship level

Only MJ averages over 30 for his career in the modern era

Only MJ averages 30/5/5 or more in the playoffs or Finals

Only MJ has 10 scoring titles

Only MJ won championship/FMVP/MVP/scoring title/1st team defense/all-star MVP in the same season (twice)

Only MJ reached a scoring champ/1st team defense/MVP caliber and stayed at that level for 10 years (88-98')

Only MJ has documented footage of him getting his head at rim off 1 leg or 2 (goat combo leaper)

Only MJ made 700 jumpshots in a season at 50% effective FG percentage.... so he provided the most favorable possessions (over 700) while providing the greatest capacity for ball movement (jumpshooting)

Only MJ was never outscored by a teammate in a playoff series

Only MJ has 6 FMVP

Only MJ has 6 chips as the best player (modern era)

Only MJ won 70 games and title as the best player

Only MJ won 72 and 69 games in b2b seasons as the best player

Only MJ has four #1 offenses with goat margins above league average ORTG

Only MJ won MVP's over a 10 year period (88-98') - goat longevity of MVP play... i.e. guys like Kareem Lebron only won MVP's over a tight 5 year period (09-13')

[ArbitraryWater]

Never doubting his greatness, BUT.....They literally used him as a guidline for a ton of advanced metrics, basically if you made a formula where he didn't appear near the very top, you went back to the drawing board or tweaked it until he did lol.


Interesting.

Fraud stuff.

[3ba11]

Yea, they did that with PER.


It was literally the opposite of that - they thought PER would show that MJ wasn't the GOAT but it still did

They were literally all in a room as the guy pressed "enter" to get the final results for PER and everyone let out an exasperated sigh when MJ was still #1.. "no way!!"... "are you sure you did the formula right?".... "how could he still be the best?".... "doesn't this thing measure efficiency?".....

these were some of the comments made at the time.

Then this same process was repeated for BPM, VORP, WS/48 and raptor plus/minus - same thing - one of the statisticians nearly committed suicide over it because he had put money on the whole thing - he bet that Lebron and Wilt would be #1 across the board and it was Jordan instead...

It really shouldn't be a surprise because MJ does have a confirmed massive advantage in the most important category (scoring), while still being goat-level in other stats like steals, or offensive rebounds for guards, or turnovers for high-scorers and clutch efficiency or efficiency at high volumes - MJ is the most efficient volume scorer...... BY FAR

[hold this L]

No one ever denied MJ’s advanced metrics. MJ, Lebron and Jokic basically stand alone when it comes to advanced stats in The playoffs.

And yes, numbers matter. Give me some nerdy econ grad like Belichick, DePodesta, or Morey over some dumb old head who was “baptized in the game” like Magic, Jordan or Isiah any day.

Where's the receipts?

[tpols]

No one ever denied MJ’s advanced metrics. MJ, Lebron and Jokic basically stand alone when it comes to advanced stats in The playoffs.

And yes, numbers matter. Give me some nerdy econ grad like Belichick, DePodesta, or Morey over some dumb old head who was “baptized in the game” like Magic, Jordan or Isiah any day.

Bill Belichick was actually a college football player believe it or not. He was an offensive linemen center and tight end and apparently the captain of the colleges lacrosse team. Seems wierd but he was more athletic than 99% of insidehoops posters.

[j3lademaster]

Bill Belichick was actually a college football player believe it or not. He was an offensive linemen center and tight end and apparently the captain of the colleges lacrosse team. Seems wierd but he was more athletic than 99% of insidehoops posters.
Oh wow, I didn’t know that. Forget 99% of ish poster, that’d make him more athletic than 99% of people period.

[Kblaze8855]

Bill Belichick was actually a college football player believe it or not. He was an offensive linemen center and tight end and apparently the captain of the colleges lacrosse team. Seems wierd but he was more athletic than 99% of insidehoops posters.


And Depodesta played both football and baseball at Harvard. A lot of these “nerds” are jocks on top of it.

[warriorfan]

Never doubting his greatness, BUT.....They literally used him as a guidline for a ton of advanced metrics, basically if you made a formula where he didn't appear near the very top, you went back to the drawing board or tweaked it until he did lol.

Do you want to list this “tons” of metrics

I think i’ve heard this about PER. (If you want to throw this out then fine, LBJ actually does great in it. lol)

[dankok8]

MJ leads over Lebron in almost all advanced metrics. And more importantly he leads more times and by bigger margins over the rest of the league. Because comparing stats blindly across eras doesn't work that well when pace, rules, styles etc. all change.

[gengiskhan]

MJ leads over Lebron in almost all advanced metrics. And more importantly he leads more times and by bigger margins over the rest of the league. Because comparing stats blindly across eras doesn't work that well when pace, rules, styles etc. all change.

It was important that LBJ stayed with CAVS and finished his career there after coming back!.

2018 LBJ got to NBA Finals without kyrie and played as MVP-runner up.

He is so stupid that he ran outta NE Ohio for Hollywood and warm waters and Beach parties.

in so many words, He left 2019 Championship which was sure shot for LBJ led 2019 cavs, to newly joined Kawhi in 2019 Raptors win!

2019 LBJ with CAVS should've placed bet on 2019 GSW Durant, Klay getting injured mid-2019 finals.

LBJ - LOVE would've been that close to forming a CAVS DYNASTY with just one more ring and his 5th Ring!

There is always a WEAK NBA Championship after a strong 6-7 games finals a year or 2 laters these decades .

2019 Rapters reaped that benefit led by Kawhi.

By 2024, LBJs CAVs with LOVE would've gotten their 5th ring as LBJ turned 40. and "dynasty" created by LBJ.

instead, he opted for that laughable BUBBLE ring!.

LBJ is his own worst enemy!.

[90sgoat]

Never doubting his greatness, BUT.....They literally used him as a guidline for a ton of advanced metrics, basically if you made a formula where he didn't appear near the very top, you went back to the drawing board or tweaked it until he did lol.

Sure, but the NBA tracking data is what sets him apart.

I am not going to dig it out, but we've got tons of stuff on how clutch he was in the 4th, we have midrange shot data from 1997/98, where he is insanely good at levels only ever matched by Dirk since they began tracking.

I mean, you have someone clutcher than Lebron/Kobe/anyone and also at the same time as effective as Dirk from midrange, while having GOAT athleticism and being an elite defender. It's an insane combo.

[SATAN]

https://oldskoolbball.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/vlcsnap-2019-08-06-14h01m15s027.png

[warriorfan]

bron and jordan both played vs guys a foot shorter than them

only difference is lebron lost to them

whats a crazy stat is jordan has never been outscored by anyone in the finals

lebron got outscored by someone 6 inches shorter and zero time all star in the nba finals

Daymn

[nayte]

Never doubting his greatness, BUT.....They literally used him as a guidline for a ton of advanced metrics, basically if you made a formula where he didn't appear near the very top, you went back to the drawing board or tweaked it until he did lol.

I read they did it with per. Didn't Robinson come out on top at first?
What are the other ones they had to change?

[FKAri]

bron and jordan both played vs guys a foot shorter than them

only difference is lebron lost to them

whats a crazy stat is jordan has never been outscored by anyone in the finals

lebron got outscored by someone 6 inches shorter and zero time all star in the nba finals

Daymn

Bron's midget defender flopped to get a charge call. MJ's swatted his shit and had MJ staring at the ref to blow the whistle. Which of course he did... for illegal zone defense lmao. Stern loved protecting that bald fraud fucc.

[sdot_thadon]

Sure, but the NBA tracking data is what sets him apart.

I am not going to dig it out, but we've got tons of stuff on how clutch he was in the 4th, we have midrange shot data from 1997/98, where he is insanely good at levels only ever matched by Dirk since they began tracking.

I mean, you have someone clutcher than Lebron/Kobe/anyone and also at the same time as effective as Dirk from midrange, while having GOAT athleticism and being an elite defender. It's an insane combo.

Im not questioning his greatness in the least, just sharing what I've seen in my travels. He's great in most metrics as is Lebrom, or Wilt for that matter. But just stating that you will come out on top more often when the statisticians believe their work won't be validated if your name isn't at the top.

[sdot_thadon]

I read they did it with per. Didn't Robinson come out on top at first?
What are the other ones they had to change?

Per for sure, they've made so many new metrics in the last generation I can't remember them all but I was definitely a stat junkie for a bit and even tried my hand at making one myself. I've read articles/blogs from the creators when available for that echoed that same sentiment of if someone wrong was at the top, the formula needed work. :oldlol: since then I started taking all the advanced metrics with a grain of salt.

[warriorfan]

Per for sure, they've made so many new metrics in the last generation I can't remember them all but I was definitely a stat junkie for a bit and even tried my hand at making one myself. I've read articles/blogs from the creators when available for that echoed that same sentiment of if someone wrong was at the top, the formula needed work. :oldlol: since then I started taking all the advanced metrics with a grain of salt.

Ok so it’s only PER and your original statement…


Never doubting his greatness, BUT.....They literally used him as a guidline for a ton of advanced metrics, basically if you made a formula where he didn't appear near the very top, you went back to the drawing board or tweaked it until he did lol.

was full of shit.

Got it.

[ImKobe]

Never doubting his greatness, BUT.....They literally used him as a guidline for a ton of advanced metrics, basically if you made a formula where he didn't appear near the very top, you went back to the drawing board or tweaked it until he did lol.

Got any source to your claim?

How about you come up with a formula that makes Jordan look bad compared to his peers. You really can't do that unless you give no value to scoring, but scoring is also the most important part of the game at the end of the day, and Jordan was the most dominant & the most consistent scorer ever.

[Elosha]

I'm sure all these advanced analytics LeBron apologists will be just as eager to be consistent and reasonably measured when inevitably someone provides a detailed and compelling expose showing how turnover king LeBron would have vastly more turnovers, lower efficiency rating, lower scoring, etc. if his travels, flops, offensive fouls were called as they were in the 80's and 90's when Jordan played.

Oh wait, that would be rational and not hypocritical. Never mind. :facepalm

[sdot_thadon]

Ok so it’s only PER and your original statement…



was full of shit.

Got it.

You do know PER was the most prominent "new" advanced metric and the ones that followed were attempting to do similar things in spirt? I don't need to hold your hand and walk you to the water when you drown just fine on dry land.

[sdot_thadon]

Got any source to your claim?

How about you come up with a formula that makes Jordan look bad compared to his peers. You really can't do that unless you give no value to scoring, but scoring is also the most important part of the game at the end of the day, and Jordan was the most dominant & the most consistent scorer ever.

I'm pretty sure with enough time on your hands you can make a convoluted formula that reaches any result you'd like, that's how math works ya know. You'd have to do the digging on your own for sources verifying what I read to you isn't that important for something so trivial.

[sdot_thadon]

I'm sure all these advanced analytics LeBron apologists will be just as eager to be consistent and reasonably measured when inevitably someone provides a detailed and compelling expose showing how turnover king LeBron would have vastly more turnovers, lower efficiency rating, lower scoring, etc. if his travels, flops, offensive fouls were called as they were in the 80's and 90's when Jordan played.

Oh wait, that would be rational and not hypocritical. Never mind. :facepalm

Just the same as would happen to Jordan's numbers if we dumped him into the 60s. Different r eras, but of they were allowed to adjust would both do fine in any era. So what's the point?

[gengiskhan]

Just the same as would happen to Jordan's numbers if we dumped him into the 60s. Different r eras, but of they were allowed to adjust would both do fine in any era. So what's the point?

All I know is.....no HAND CHECKING, no TRAVEL calling, no DOUBLE DRIBBLE calling. ZONE defense. no Physical contact allowed.

LBJ got to All time points #1. thanks to LOAD MANAGEMENT disguised as LONGEVITY!

LBJ offensive skill level is so above average, he aint scoring more than 20-22 PPG if 90s rules were extended forever into 2020s.

plain and simple. Will LBJ still be a great player. YES. absolutely!

'Nique was great player. LBJ is just about as great as 'Nique offensively. with little more moves. thats about it.

[Elosha]

Just the same as would happen to Jordan's numbers if we dumped him into the 60s. Different r eras, but of they were allowed to adjust would both do fine in any era. So what's the point?

LeBron is a great player, but I'm actually not sure he would fully adjust to a stricter era. The guy travels incessantly, strong arms/pushes off incessantly, and flops incessantly. Those are staples and features of his game, not aberrations. He's a very skilled offensive player, but not THAT skilled. It would make a material difference to his game, because being able to take three or more steps on his drives and shove opposing players out of the way are an important reason why he's successful.

Would he still be an ATG? Unquestionably, yes. Would he be as effective if called more fairly under rules that seem largely geared toward allowing leeway underheard of in previous eras? Almost certainly, no.

[RRR3]

LeBron is a great player, but I'm actually not sure he would fully adjust to a stricter era. The guy travels incessantly, strong arms/pushes off incessantly, and flops incessantly. Those are staples and features of his game, not aberrations. He's a very skilled offensive player, but not THAT skilled. It would make a material difference to his game, because being able to take three or more steps on his drives and shove opposing players out of the way are an important reason why he's successful.

Would he still be an ATG? Unquestionably, yes. Would he be as effective if called more fairly under rules that seem largely geared toward allowing leeway underheard of in previous eras? Almost certainly, no.
People who think the game was more difficult in the 80s are beyond stupid.

[gengiskhan]

People who think the game was more difficult in the 80s are beyond stupid.

People who DONT think game was more difficult in the 80s are born full retards!

Hand checking..........CHECK
Physical Play.............CHECK
Half Court Offense.....CHECK
NO Flagrant Foul call..CHECK
Full Court Presses......CHECK
3 seconds rule...........CHECK
Clogged Paint all 24s..CHECK
Dominant Big Men.....CHECK

No wonder Luka once said, Scoring is easier in NBA than in Europe now.

[3ba11]

People who think the game was more difficult in the 80s are beyond stupid.


less spacing = more difficult to score

more physicality = more difficult to score


what's so hard about that - it's intuitive and historical record that previous eras were tougher... today's era actually ban perimeter defenders from "impeding" ball-handlers in any way - today's rules mandate no defense, while the spacing vacates the paint of all defenders so ball-handlers can see the rim and don't have to pull up over packed paints like previous eras..

lack of spacing in previous eras required better touch and also quicker instinct to make plays in traffic - we see today's players exposed in these areas in international play (touch from mid-range and quick instinct in high traffic).

[RRR3]

People who DONT think game was more difficult in the 80s are born full retards!

Hand checking..........CHECK
Physical Play.............CHECK
Half Court Offense.....CHECK
NO Flagrant Foul call..CHECK
Full Court Presses......CHECK
3 seconds rule...........CHECK
Clogged Paint all 24s..CHECK
Dominant Big Men.....CHECK

No wonder Luka once said, Scoring is easier in NBA than in Europe now.
No one guarded jumpshooters in the 80s, we've seen the tapes now gramps. WE DONE WITH THE 80s!!!

[3ba11]

People who DONT think game was more difficult in the 80s are born full retards!

Hand checking..........CHECK
Physical Play.............CHECK
Half Court Offense.....CHECK
NO Flagrant Foul call..CHECK
Full Court Presses......CHECK
3 seconds rule...........CHECK
Clogged Paint all 24s..CHECK
Dominant Big Men.....CHECK

No wonder Luka once said, Scoring is easier in NBA than in Europe now.


boom

[3ba11]

No one guarded jumpshooters in the 80s,


they guarded them if they thought they could shoot - Dale Ellis had someone stuck to him at all times and there was no high-screen, drive-and-kick format for him to wait for open threes like today's player enjoys (high-volume format)... Similarly, Jordan had someone on him but they also had to respect his goat rim-attack and paint game

And the videos of "done with the 90's" show one-offs just like Haberstroh's analysis of Jordan's steals - literally the exact same thing, aka fraud.. carry on

[ShawkFactory]

they guarded them if they thought they could shoot - Dale Ellis had someone stuck to him at all times and there was no high-screen, drive-and-kick format for him to wait for open threes like today's player enjoys (high-volume format)... Similarly, Jordan had someone on him but they also had to respect his goat rim-attack and paint game

And the videos of "done with the 90's" show one-offs just like Haberstroh's analysis of Jordan's steals - literally the exact same thing, aka fraud.. carry on

What if almost everyone could shoot? Would it look the same?

[Hey Yo]

Stern moved the 3pt line in cause nobody could shoot.

[SATAN]

Stern moved the 3pt line in cause nobody could shoot.

Pathetic era lol

[sdot_thadon]

All I know is.....no HAND CHECKING, no TRAVEL calling, no DOUBLE DRIBBLE calling. ZONE defense. no Physical contact allowed.

LBJ got to All time points #1. thanks to LOAD MANAGEMENT disguised as LONGEVITY!

LBJ offensive skill level is so above average, he aint scoring more than 20-22 PPG if 90s rules were extended forever into 2020s.

plain and simple. Will LBJ still be a great player. YES. absolutely!

'Nique was great player. LBJ is just about as great as 'Nique offensively. with little more moves. thats about it.


LeBron is a great player, but I'm actually not sure he would fully adjust to a stricter era. The guy travels incessantly, strong arms/pushes off incessantly, and flops incessantly. Those are staples and features of his game, not aberrations. He's a very skilled offensive player, but not THAT skilled. It would make a material difference to his game, because being able to take three or more steps on his drives and shove opposing players out of the way are an important reason why he's successful.

Would he still be an ATG? Unquestionably, yes. Would he be as effective if called more fairly under rules that seem largely geared toward allowing leeway underheard of in previous eras? Almost certainly, no.

Just like Mj was highly dependent on having more leeway with his dribble than Big O or West did. Hell, he had more leeway with his dribble than guys in his own era did. Smaller lane, no flagrant fouls in an era where bigs would let you know not to come in there again. No side cradling the ball or "quick 1st steps" you can do this for anyone in an era the rules were different . The difference for Lebron in the 90s is he'd be the most athletic thing on the planet in his prime and handcheckomg would actually help his game rather than hurt it along with giving him a cheat crutch on the defensive end. He'd weigh more than alot of starting centers in the 90s. One thing his longevity has done a disservice to is you guys don't ever consider prime Bron in these scenarios, this old guy we got right now ain't that dude.

[plowking]

It was literally the opposite of that - they thought PER would show that MJ wasn't the GOAT but it still did

They were literally all in a room as the guy pressed "enter" to get the final results for PER and everyone let out an exasperated sigh when MJ was still #1.. "no way!!"... "are you sure you did the formula right?".... "how could he still be the best?".... "doesn't this thing measure efficiency?".....

these were some of the comments made at the time.

Then this same process was repeated for BPM, VORP, WS/48 and raptor plus/minus - same thing - one of the statisticians nearly committed suicide over it because he had put money on the whole thing - he bet that Lebron and Wilt would be #1 across the board and it was Jordan instead...

It really shouldn't be a surprise because MJ does have a confirmed massive advantage in the most important category (scoring), while still being goat-level in other stats like steals, or offensive rebounds for guards, or turnovers for high-scorers and clutch efficiency or efficiency at high volumes - MJ is the most efficient volume scorer...... BY FAR

Tell us what else happened in the room that day. What else did they say?

[1987_Lakers]

Does anyone feel OP is a fake MJ stan?

He defends him in these essay type posts, but also makes threads trying to make MJ look bad.

He is just stirring the pot. :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

Does anyone feel OP is a fake MJ stan?

He defends him in these essay type posts, but also makes threads trying to make MJ look bad.

He is just stirring the pot. :oldlol:

Just like 3ball making stupid posts that in the end hurt Mj more than it helps.

[Elosha]

Just like Mj was highly dependent on having more leeway with his dribble than Big O or West did. Hell, he had more leeway with his dribble than guys in his own era did. Smaller lane, no flagrant fouls in an era where bigs would let you know not to come in there again. No side cradling the ball or "quick 1st steps" you can do this for anyone in an era the rules were different . The difference for Lebron in the 90s is he'd be the most athletic thing on the planet in his prime and handcheckomg would actually help his game rather than hurt it along with giving him a cheat crutch on the defensive end. He'd weigh more than alot of starting centers in the 90s. One thing his longevity has done a disservice to is you guys don't ever consider prime Bron in these scenarios, this old guy we got right now ain't that dude.

I've watched the NBA since the early 1980's watched LeBron from 2003 onwards, and seen hundreds of his games at every point in his career. I have respect for many aspects of LBJ, he'd be an ATG at any level. I'm not judging my comments about him based on only his current level, which to be fair is still incredibly athletic for his age. One point I'll give LeBron is his GOAT durability. Even when taking into account things like load management, he's been able to maintain sustained excellence longer than any other star. But that's not ultimately what makes the overall GOAT.

As to your points about Jordan, his era-specific behaviors would, IMO, be much easier to change than LeBron's. A slight change and training in his ballhandling wouldn't do much if anything to slow him down. Also, the NBA in the 80's and 90's were already loosening palming restrictions across the board, it most certainly did not benefit only Jordan. And as to your comment about smaller lanes, it was far more difficult to drive the crowded lanes in 80's and especially 90's than today's lanes, which usually require a player to only beat their man around the three point line and then often have a complete open lane without any challenge whatsoever. Also, disagree that LeBron would be the most athletic player in the 90's, his two foot jumping was inferior to numerous players, as was his first step and lateral quickness. But that's more of a discussion for a different thread.

I find the marginal loosening of carrying rules in Jordan's era (which frankly were called so strictly in early basketball days that it often disrupted the game and stifled the growth of ballhandling that everyone loves to see today) to be far less advantageous to the offensive player than the egregious travel violations that LeBron and many other players, especially stars, are allowed to get away with. And LeBron has been allowed to get away with it his entire career. Hell, even two of his playoff game winners in his early career against Washington are only because he was allowed to get away with blatant travels that would never have been permitted in earlier eras.

The problem for LeBron is that traveling is a substantial part of why he's such an effective driver, along with elbowing, shouldering, and stiff-arming defensive players out of his path. He's like Karl Malone on steroids when it comes to offensive fouls, plus he's given more leniency on traveling than anyone other than, perhaps James Harden and his four step three pointers.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron would still be a great driver/finisher without those advantages, he's still an incredibly powerful, explosive, and skilled player. But to act like it wouldn't materially and negatively affect his game is denying reality.

[sdot_thadon]

I've watched the NBA since the early 1980's watched LeBron from 2003 onwards, and seen hundreds of his games at every point in his career. I have respect for many aspects of LBJ, he'd be an ATG at any level. I'm not judging my comments about him based on only his current level, which to be fair is still incredibly athletic for his age. One point I'll give LeBron is his GOAT durability. Even when taking into account things like load management, he's been able to maintain sustained excellence longer than any other star. But that's not ultimately what makes the overall GOAT.

As to your points about Jordan, his era-specific behaviors would, IMO, be much easier to change than LeBron's. A slight change and training in his ballhandling wouldn't do much if anything to slow him down. Also, the NBA in the 80's and 90's were already loosening palming restrictions across the board, it most certainly did not benefit only Jordan. And as to your comment about smaller lanes, it was far more difficult to drive the crowded lanes in 80's and especially 90's than today's lanes, which usually require a player to only beat their man around the three point line and then often have a complete open lane without any challenge whatsoever. Also, disagree that LeBron would be the most athletic player in the 90's, his two foot jumping was inferior to numerous players, as was his first step and lateral quickness. But that's more of a discussion for a different thread.

I find the marginal loosening of carrying rules in Jordan's era (which frankly were called so strictly in early basketball days that it often disrupted the game and stifled the growth of ballhandling that everyone loves to see today) to be far less advantageous to the offensive player than the egregious travel violations that LeBron and many other players, especially stars, are allowed to get away with. And LeBron has been allowed to get away with it his entire career. Hell, even two of his playoff game winners in his early career against Washington are only because he was allowed to get away with blatant travels that would never have been permitted in earlier eras.

The problem for LeBron is that traveling is a substantial part of why he's such an effective driver, along with elbowing, shouldering, and stiff-arming defensive players out of his path. He's like Karl Malone on steroids when it comes to offensive fouls, plus he's given more leniency on traveling than anyone other than, perhaps James Harden and his four step three pointers.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron would still be a great driver/finisher without those advantages, he's still an incredibly powerful, explosive, and skilled player. But to act like it wouldn't materially and negatively affect his game is denying reality.

Tell me you're biased without telling me you're biased. So here's my problem with fellow Mj fans, he gets the benefit of doubt for ANY topic, ANY discussion to the point it's clown level discussions. We all watched him, he wasn't perfect but he was great, no doubt. He wasn't above getting preferential treatment or having advantages or cheating the system as much as you'd want to say he didn't. It's coming to roost slowly as the next generation gets control of the narrative. As far as the ball handling comment goes, I posted some time ago an article from sports illustrated during Mjs rookie season speaking on him being allowed to travel or carry the ball, a thing reserved for the elite. It's in plain text from the time it happend.

About LeBron being the most athletic in the 90s? Agree to disagree, nobody his size could move like he did in the 90s, it's not even close and he was strong as they come at his peak. There's no way you truly believe 90s rules would impact Lebron more than 60s rules would handcuff almost anyone from the modern era. The dribbling techniques are everything as far as getting to the bucket is concerned. I remember I caught on to Lebrons extra steps early in his prime. He was taking and extra step on drives he got hammered and would convert the bucket, the physical nature of the foul being the justification for the step and it worked pretty well. I saw it less as he moved into his peak but it was definitely a phase in his career. But to say that's a substantial part of why he's effective? Well like always you can say the same about Mj being allowed to do what others weren't in his era. It is what it is, but remember we always give Mj benefit of doubt for ANY or no reason.:oldlol: