Bulls sending Caruso to OKC for Giddey

[Hey Yo]

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/06/bulls-thunder-to-swap-alex-caruso-josh-giddey.html

[Wardell Curry]

Well there's a strong chance OKC is coming out of the West next year.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I thought Caruso was considered to be a valued asset? Because Giddey was useless for OKC.

[warriorfan]

Good move for both teams.


OKC looking really nice.

[Im Still Ballin]

Damn, that's a nice pickup for OKC.

[warriorfan]

I thought Caruso was considered to be a valued asset? Because Giddey was useless for OKC.

Giddey wasn’t useless. He got exposed a bit in the playoffs with his 3 ball being inconsistent.

He can score a bit, pass and rebound. He’s young still, he still has room to improve. If he can bring his 3 point shooting up a tad bit so teams won’t leave him at the 3 point line he should be good. He’s not gonna be part of a big 3 or anything but he has a good chance of turning into a solid “other” on a contending team.

[Im Still Ballin]

I see the thinking. Other contenders probably weren't offering anything that fit their long-term focus.


The Bulls have been determined to find a playmaker to replace Lonzo Ball, and Giddey , 21, comes with an All-Star potential that would unlikely be realized with the Thunder because of the playmaking starpower who surrounded him. The Bulls will offer him an opportunity to have the ball in his hands and so much more freedom pass and score.

[tontoz]

I thought Caruso was considered to be a valued asset? Because Giddey was useless for OKC.


Caruso will be a ufa next summer. They had their chances to get more for him but they waited too long.

Seems like most of the moves the bulls make end badly.

[Im Still Ballin]

OKC still needs to figure out its size issues. Hopefully, they're not a bunch of Edey-iots and pass on Zach. They need some tactical flexibility and having a high-level rebounder, screener, roller, rebounder, and finisher would provide that. This incredibly strict adherence to five-out I don't agree with. Need a few more wrinkles in their playbook.

[bison]

https://i.ibb.co/rFPhs8W/IMG-1955.jpg

[Wardell Curry]

https://i.ibb.co/rFPhs8W/IMG-1955.jpg

:roll:

[tontoz]

https://i.ibb.co/rFPhs8W/IMG-1955.jpg



Seriously :oldlol:

I would bet they draft a big who can shoot like Ware or Holmes.

[warriorfan]

https://i.ibb.co/rFPhs8W/IMG-1955.jpg

Funny meme but call me crazy, I don’t think it’s that bad even if no picks are involved. Bulls realistically need to pull the trigger and start rebuilding and trying to get younger. Caruso isn’t doing anything for their franchise at the moment. Could they have dealt him to another team for more? Perhaps but it’s hard to say for certain. I think Caruso for Giddey straight up is pretty fair for both sides with which directions they are going as a team.

[RRR3]

It's a fine move if you're high on Giddey's potential. Personally I don't see it. Love it for OKC tho.

[tontoz]

Yeah Giddey was bad all year and really got exposed in the playoffs.

[warriorfan]

Yeah Giddey was bad all year and really got exposed in the playoffs.

If i’m Chicago I would have asked for picks but if they had a firm no I would still pull the trigger. Chicago needs to make some moves. They are in treadmill territory right now. Like I said before if I’m Chicago I’m trying to get younger and start to rebuild.

[Neal Romer]

Yeah Giddey was bad all year and really got exposed in the playoffs.

This is just categorically wrong to say he was "bad all year." He started the season in a shooting slump which is what people remember, he eventually broke out of it and was fine for a few months which nobody noticed or remembers. Then he was shooting poorly again in the playoffs.

And thats really the only weakness in his game. It just happens to be a tough weakness to have in today's NBA. But hes still REALLY young. Hes younger than Chet. And shooting is one of the clearest areas young players tend to improve over time.

I understand why OKC doesnt wanna sit and wait for him to develop when they feel theyre already in a position to contend, but it's a good gamble for the Bulls. Ironically, hes pretty similar to what Lonzo was at 21. And Lonzo eventually became a pretty good player and reliable shooter by the time his knee went bust.

Giddeys got the tools. People just think anyone who's in a shooting slump or hasnt developed as a shooter yet sucks and cant play. It's lazy evaluation.

[Neal Romer]

As far as OKC... I love adding Caruso to the roster, but who's playing point for them? They dont really have a natural point guard on the roster now as far as Im aware. Not that you absolutely have to have one. But they could be a little bit vulnerable to pressure heavy defense.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah, despite his new, unideal role, off-court scandal, and slow start, Giddey actually played solidly. He was great in the first round against New Orleans and performed okay in the last few games against Dallas when he came off the bench.

He's still only 21 and has improved his shooting incrementally every season.

[beasted]

Caruso is overrated by some here. He's the last glue piece on a contending team. But for an above-averagish team trying to move the needle, he doesn't raise the floor.

So for the people asking for picks to be included, he's not that guy. He's a KCP, Derrick White type guy perfect on a contending team as a 5th-6th option though.

[warriorfan]

Caruso is overrated by some here. He's the last glue piece on a contending team. But for an above-averagish team trying to move the needle, he doesn't raise the floor.

So for the people asking for picks to be included, he's not that guy. He's a KCP, Derrick White type guy perfect on a contending team as a 5th-6th option though.

Splitting hairs a bit here but Derrick White has separated himself from that group of players this season.

he’s really good.


still know what you are saying though

[90sgoat]

Mavs better be making some moves, because OKC just get even better at perimeter defense.

Would have liked Caruso for Mavs but I guess THJ + Hardy/Green isn't as interesting as Giddey.

[Im Still Ballin]

As far as OKC... I love adding Caruso to the roster, but who's playing point for them? They dont really have a natural point guard on the roster now as far as Im aware. Not that you absolutely have to have one. But they could be a little bit vulnerable to pressure heavy defense.

It's an interesting one. On paper, they should be better. But we've seen teams not live up to expectations before. Basketball is a careful balance at the team construction level. We saw how losing Jrue's POA defense and screen navigation hurt Milwaukee. OKC gets smaller, losing rebounding, and a creative playmaker. They'll be even more robotic in offensive execution.

[tontoz]

I watched OKC a lot this year. It was obvious they needed to get rid of Giddey. Teams left him wide open from 3 routinely. Nobody is worried about his broken set shot.

There is a reason why he only got 12 minutes per game vs Dallas. He was too much of a liability.

[Im Still Ballin]

I will say that Caruso is a solid playmaker. However, he's more of a connective tissue passer whereas Giddey is a classic playmaker who can dribble the ball, get the defensive rebound and play the transition game, slow the pace, and creatively manufacture a shot for his team. I wonder if this puts more of a burden on Shai to create for others.

[Jasper]

remember caroso is a spotty scorer , his defense is VG thou.

He is basically a 8 6 6 guy w/defense.

[Im Still Ballin]

I watched OKC a lot this year. It was obvious they needed to get rid of Giddey. Teams left him wide open from 3 routinely. Nobody is worried about his broken set shot.

There is a reason why he only got 12 minutes per game vs Dallas. He was too much of a liability.

And they still lost. Giddey was the scapegoat; if the issue was as big as you or others made it out to be then we should've expected a more dramatic result/effect. Because basketball is a little more complicated than that.

[tontoz]

And they still lost. Giddey was the scapegoat; if the issue was as big as you or others made it out to be then we should've expected a more dramatic result/effect. Because basketball is a little more complicated than that.


Giddey was -24 for the series. That is pretty bad for a guy playing limited.

[Im Still Ballin]

Giddey was -24 for the series. That is pretty bad for a guy playing limited minutes vs backups.

Over six games. You want to check the on/off for the entire playoff run?

[Neal Romer]

It's an interesting one. On paper, they should be better. But we've seen teams not live up to expectations before. Basketball is a careful balance at the team construction level. We saw how losing Jrue's POA defense and screen navigation hurt Milwaukee. OKC gets smaller, losing rebounding, and a creative playmaker. They'll be even more robotic in offensive execution.

Yeah. They will have some pretty suffocating defensive lineups with Caruso, Dort, SGA and Chet out there at the same time.

I guess offensively the idea is SGA and Chet will be a good enough star tandem to play through and just put floor spacers around them. And I do think they have the potential to be an elite tandem depending on how quickly Chet progresses. Altho he had some shooting slumps of his own last season, but obviously it was his rookie season and the foundation for improvement is there. And Caruso is an objective upgrade in three point shooting consistency.

I agree tho they really could use another big body up front. They're vulnerable at the basket when Chet sits, and even when he's in theyre still susceptible to getting bullied by centers with mass. They have a dearth of picks still, I'd be pretty surprised if they dont eventually make a move for someone in that capacity by the deadline.

[tontoz]

Over six games. You want to check the on/off for the entire playoff run?


The entire playoff run? :oldlol:

Do you really expect me to put any weight to beating the Pels without Zion?

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah. They will have some pretty suffocating defensive lineups with Caruso, Dort, SGA and Chet out there at the same time.

I guess offensively the idea is SGA and Chet will be a good enough star tandem to play through and just put floor spacers around them. And I do think they have the potential to be an elite tandem depending on how quickly Chet progresses. Altho he had some shooting slumps of his own last season, but obviously it was his rookie season and the foundation for improvement is there. And Caruso is an objective upgrade in three point shooting consistency.

I agree tho they really could use another big body up front. They're vulnerable at the basket when Chet sits, and even when he's in theyre still susceptible to getting bullied by centers with mass. They have a dearth of picks still, I'd be pretty surprised if they dont eventually make a move for someone in that capacity by the deadline.

They have cap space and are supposedly favorites to sign Hartenstein. But I'm not sure if he'd start or not. Would Chet play PF? I'm not sure if he wants to go to a team where he comes off the bench. But maybe if the price is right...

[Im Still Ballin]

The entire playoff run? :oldlol:

Do you really expect me to put any weight to beating the Pels without Zion?

:facepalm

You can cherry pick whatever small sample size you want. Beats me...

[Neal Romer]

Splitting hairs a bit here but Derrick White has separated himself from that group of players this season.

he’s really good.


still know what you are saying though


Agreed.

Playoff leader in winshares this post season.

[tontoz]

You can cherry pick whatever small sample size you want. Beats me...


I watched them a lot during the season. Teams just ignored him in the perimeter all year. They had enough talent to get away with it all season, until they met Dallas.

They wasted no time getting rid of him. The finals just ended 3 days ago.

Giddey wasn't their only problem, but he was a big one. They obviously need another big body or two.

[Neal Romer]

They have cap space and are supposedly favorites to sign Hartenstein. But I'm not sure if he'd start or not. Would Chet play PF? I'm not sure if he wants to go to a team where he comes off the bench. But maybe if the price is right...

Interesting, I hadnt heard that about Hartenstein. I dont know either if he'd come off the bench, but he'd still be able to play plenty of minutes if he did, since he CAN share the court with Holmgren in some lineups. It's not like a Gafford-Lively situation where they have to be out there separately. And then you factor in the likelyhood of Chet eventually missing SOME time with injuries at some point, which of course I'm not hoping for but is realistic.

So I dont think there'd be a lack of playing opportunity there. I guess it'd be more about does he wanna be somewhere that he's the "top center" or would he accept the role of vice-center if they offer him a big enough bag.

[Im Still Ballin]

Interesting, I hadnt heard that about Hartenstein. I dont know either if he'd come off the bench, but he'd still be able to play plenty of minutes if he did, since he CAN share the court with Holmgren in some lineups. It's not like a Gafford-Lively situation where they have to be out there separately. And then you factor in the likelyhood of Chet eventually missing SOME time with injuries at some point, which of course I'm not hoping for but is realistic.

So I dont think there'd be a lack of playing opportunity there. I guess it'd be more about does he wanna be somewhere that he's the "top center" or would he accept the role of vice-center if they offer him a big enough bag.

NYK can offer Hartenstein 17m per whereas OKC can go to 23m. We'll see what happens. They might draft a center or make a trade during the season. Poetl might be an option for a trade later in the season too.

[HylianNightmare]

https://i.ibb.co/rFPhs8W/IMG-1955.jpg

Gold

[beasted]

Splitting hairs a bit here but Derrick White has separated himself from that group of players this season.

he’s really good.


still know what you are saying though

Last season has to be looked at as an outlier for White. Happy for him that he capitalized with a payday, but outside of that I agree he's the best of the 3 guys.

[Axe]

Ew...

[fsvr54]

Yeah Giddey was bad all year and really got exposed in the playoffs.

You don't know basketball

[tontoz]

You don't know basketball

I guess the thunder don't either since they are the ones who benched him in the playoffs and then traded him.

[beasted]

Reading a lot of complaining from the Bulls front on social media. I think people have lost sight that Caruso is a30 yr old with career playoff averages of 6 PPG on 53% TS.

People need to Fred Flinstone foot through the floorboard pump their brakes.

[RRR3]

Reading a lot of complaining from the Bulls front on social media. I think people have lost sight that Caruso is a30 yr old with career playoff averages of 6 PPG on 53% TS.

People need to Fred Flinstone foot through the floorboard pump their brakes.
He's mid on offense but one of if not the best guard defender in the entire league.

[beasted]

He's mid on offense but one of if not the best guard defender in the entire league.

Mediocre offense w/ plus defense doesn't demand draft picks to be included though.

Especially on the wrong side of 30 due for a new contract which the receiving team could end up with a 1yr rental.

[BarberSchool]

Everyone in chicago HATES this move.

And nobody even cares about Giddey and the 17yr old.
Nobody believes in his game/potential.

Only way this winds up good is if Chicago knows Caruso will never be healthy for long periods again. Wish they could have traded the cancer that is Lonzo Ball back when people still thought he had a bright future.

[Neal Romer]

Everyone in chicago HATES this move.

And nobody even cares about Giddey and the 17yr old.
Nobody believes in his game/potential.

Only way this winds up good is if Chicago knows Caruso will never be healthy for long periods again. Wish they could have traded the cancer that is Lonzo Ball back when people still thought he had a bright future.

Why? They have to blow it up and it looks like theyve finally admitted that to themselves. Caruso no longer fits their timeline regardless.

Giddey was a sixth overall pick. And until a prolonged shooting slump this year he was seen as a rising young star. He's on the short list of a lot of "youngest players to do x, y, or z" records, mostly involving triple doubles. He's still only 21. Doesnt have any IQ/attitude issues or significant injury history. He's simply no longer a good fit on the Thunder because they have two stars they wanna surround with floor spacers. This is honestly pretty good "buy low" opportunism by the Bulls IMO.

I guarantee the Thunder arent dumping him because they think he wont become a good player. It's just about fit and timeline.

We cant judge him by his terrible haircut. He's a better player than his haircut makes him look.

[Im Still Ballin]

It's going to be interesting if Shai goes down with an injury at some point. Who takes over the playmaking duties? What effect does that have? Will Shai and J-Will be as effective scoring as they were this season with greater playmaking responsibilities?

[AirBonner]

This is a bad move for OKC. Caruso can’t stay healthy.

[Proctor]

This is a bad move for OKC. Caruso can’t stay healthy.
Imagine believing this. :roll:

Caruso for even half a year has more impact than a full year of Giddey.

Amazing pickup.

[AirBonner]

Imagine believing this. :roll:

Caruso for even half a year has more impact than a full year of Giddey.

Amazing pickup.
Caruso running the point for Shai when he sits? Not going to work

[SATAN]

It's going to be interesting if Shai goes down with an injury at some point. Who takes over the playmaking duties? What effect does that have? Will Shai and J-Will be as effective scoring as they were this season with greater playmaking responsibilities?

LeBron.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2406212016380351.jpeg

[tontoz]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2406212016380351.jpeg


:lol


Aside from drafting White what was the last move they made you actually liked?

[Carbine]

I don't particularly like the trade for OKC and what they have been building. He's only 21, it's not like he isn't going to get any better. His shot will almost certainly improve if he wants it to.

Caruso will make them better for this year and that's about it. I can't see them using valuable dollars that they need to reserve for other contracts coming up to siGn Caruso long term

[AirBonner]

I don't particularly like the trade for OKC and what they have been building. He's only 21, it's not like he isn't going to get any better. His shot will almost certainly improve if he wants it to.

Caruso will make them better for this year and that's about it. I can't see them using valuable dollars that they need to reserve for other contracts coming up to siGn Caruso long term

Agree. Giddey’s offensive potential is much higher. He took a leap in free throw efficiency which usually translates to a possible 3pt shooter development. He averaged almost 17ppg the season prior. He fits the okc timeline better than Caruso and has averaged 20 more games played a season than Caruso.

[Neal Romer]

NYK can offer Hartenstein 17m per whereas OKC can go to 23m. We'll see what happens. They might draft a center or make a trade during the season. Poetl might be an option for a trade later in the season too.

Why can NYK only offer him 17...? Dont they have his Bird's?

And if the Hartenstein thing doesnt work out for the Thunder, they could maybe package a few picks and try to get a one year rental of... Steven Adams?

Be kinda fun to see him back in OKC with this jovial young squad they have. I could see some chemistry existing there despite the generation gap.

[Im Still Ballin]

Why can NYK only offer him 17...? Dont they have his Bird's?

And if the Hartenstein thing doesnt work out for the Thunder, they could maybe package a few picks and try to get a one year rental of... Steven Adams?

Be kinda fun to see him back in OKC with this jovial young squad they have. I could see some chemistry existing there despite the generation gap.

More cap space? I'm not sure, I just read it somewhere.

Adams could be a nice addition assuming he's healthy.


Agree. Giddey’s offensive potential is much higher. He took a leap in free throw efficiency which usually translates to a possible 3pt shooter development. He averaged almost 17ppg the season prior. He fits the okc timeline better than Caruso and has averaged 20 more games played a season than Caruso.

Lonzo was statistically a worse shooter at the same age as Giddey. He eventually became a great three-point shooter at 39% on 7.3 attempts per game over his last two-and-a-half seasons. Josh becomes a formidable talent if he follows a similar trajectory. He's an 80% FT guy over the last season so there's potential for growth as a perimeter threat.

We'll see.

[Neal Romer]

More cap space? I'm not sure, I just read it somewhere.

Adams could be a nice addition assuming he's healthy.


Yeah but he's already a Knick. Re-signing him doesnt require cap space.

[BarberSchool]

Why? They have to blow it up and it looks like theyve finally admitted that to themselves. Caruso no longer fits their timeline regardless.

Giddey was a sixth overall pick. And until a prolonged shooting slump this year he was seen as a rising young star. He's on the short list of a lot of "youngest players to do x, y, or z" records, mostly involving triple doubles. He's still only 21. Doesnt have any IQ/attitude issues or significant injury history. He's simply no longer a good fit on the Thunder because they have two stars they wanna surround with floor spacers. This is honestly pretty good "buy low" opportunism by the Bulls IMO.

I guarantee the Thunder arent dumping him because they think he wont become a good player. It's just about fit and timeline.

We cant judge him by his terrible haircut. He's a better player than his haircut makes him look.
This kind of appeal might work on someone’s aunt buying an air fryer, but I can’t buy any scenario in which this isn’t Sam Presti robbing the Bulls.

The only MF’s who bought the Giddey hype are the f@ggots running the US media, who also told us for years Marc Sanchez and Jimmy Garropolo were franchise QB’s when in reality, they were backups. But the media f@gs just couldn’t stop drooling long enough to listen to THE TRUTH. Until it slapped them in the face.

These same no-sports-playin, undeserved-loudmouth talkin head media f@ggot MF’s, framed Giddey like an up and coming star, when he was literally a mediocre at best forward who could handle it a little bit and NOT SHOOT at all.

Dude is A slower, less explosive, shorter limbed Ben Simmons type. A homeless, sunburned, toothless aussie’s version of Lamar Odom. Fk that. It’s a travesty, this trade.

[tontoz]

A homeless, sunburned, toothless aussie’s version of Lamar Odom. Fk that. It’s a travesty, this trade.

:lol

[Neal Romer]

This kind of appeal might work on someone’s aunt buying an air fryer, but I can’t buy any scenario in which this isn’t Sam Presti robbing the Bulls.

The only MF’s who bought the Giddey hype are the f@ggots running the US media, who also told us for years Marc Sanchez and Jimmy Garropolo were franchise QB’s when in reality, they were backups. But the media f@gs just couldn’t stop drooling long enough to listen to THE TRUTH. Until it slapped them in the face.

These same no-sports-playin, undeserved-loudmouth talkin head media f@ggot MF’s, framed Giddey like an up and coming star, when he was literally a mediocre at best forward who could handle it a little bit and NOT SHOOT at all.

Dude is A slower, less explosive, shorter limbed Ben Simmons type. A homeless, sunburned, toothless aussie’s version of Lamar Odom. Fk that. It’s a travesty, this trade.


I think you're overestimating what the return was going to be for Alex Caruso. A lot of teams wanted him, but itd be mostly contenders who can offer non lottery picks and some middling vets to make the salaries match, which is not what the Bulls need. Caruso is a 30 year old somewhat injury prone role player. It's not unreasonable to assume a 21 year old sixth pick of the draft with good upside was the best offer on the table.

[BurningHammer]

What Bulls is doing? :confusedshrug:

It looks to be all OKC now. Good luck to them.

[Patrick Chewing]

Bulls what ya doing?? :facepalm

[beasted]

Like I expected, Giddey has significantly outplayed Caruso. This is only going to get worse with time.

[BarberSchool]

Like I expected, Giddey has significantly outplayed Caruso. This is only going to get worse with time.

Be sure to also bump this, when Lou Dort thanks Caruso profusely for turning him into an even greater defender, and/or when Caruso is locking up western conference guards, and causing lots of turnovers which trigger fast breaks, in the long OKC post-season run.:D

[beasted]

Be sure to also bump this, when Lou Dort thanks Caruso profusely for turning him into an even greater defender, and/or when Caruso is locking up western conference guards, and causing lots of turnovers which trigger fast breaks, in the long OKC post-season run.:D

I never said Caruso didn't have value, but for Chicago, Giddey is already better and will be better for years to come. The idea that people said Giddey should come with a 1st round pick is absurd for these reasons.

I said earlier in this thread that Caruso is a solid glue guy when you already have your top rotation players already figured out. But he will always be a bench specialist type defender in my eyes especially because of his age and injury riddled history. Those types don't fetch picks unless you're taking back a garbage player in return.

In this case the Bills got a starter caliber player for peanuts.

[tontoz]

I'll bump this thread when the bulls let Giddey walk for nothing.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/61c9c379-dc9e-4342-8972-a3c17258e5a1/6e5a6f73-8031-4daa-89b9-1faf00240730.jpg


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/bulls-total-plus-minus-leaders

[Real Men Wear Green]

Giddey is a starter caliber player on the Bulls. A good team isn't going to be giving him much of a role. He might be capable of Evan Turner level contributions. For a bad team that could be more valuable than Caruso but a team like OKC with better players to run the offense through have more of a use for Caruso to get a stop. What's more likely in a playoff series, SGA deferring to Giddey down the stretch vs Phoenix or them needing a stop badly and assigning Caruso to check KD?

[beasted]

I remember people were basically calling Giddey a bum

[Neal Romer]

It's a fine move if you're high on Giddey's potential. Personally I don't see it. Love it for OKC tho.


^ Guy NEVER gets anything right, yikes.

[marLeY baLL]

o.d.b.

[Proctor]

^ Guy NEVER gets anything right, yikes.
Nothing wrong with what he said and I and many others were way more wrong than that.

Giddey is being maximized in Chicago and one of their best players while Caruso can miss the whole season and OKC would still obliterate most teams.

[RRR3]

Nothing wrong with what he said and I and many others were way more wrong than that.

Giddey is being maximized in Chicago and one of their best players while Caruso can miss the whole season and OKC would still obliterate most teams.
He's been obsessively posting about me for months, poooor little Chrissy


https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81JWTCG6pvL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg

[999Guy]

Win win trade

[Neal Romer]

Nothing wrong with what he said and I and many others were way more wrong than that.

Giddey is being maximized in Chicago and one of their best players while Caruso can miss the whole season and OKC would still obliterate most teams.

Well he said he didnt see any potential so there clearly was "something wrong" with his assessment. It's not a big deal to get something wrong, but he gets EVERYTHING wrong. This was just one drop in the bucket.

[highwhey]

is giddey the aaron hernandez of the nba? skeletons in his closet?

[Neal Romer]

"Giddey's useless"

"Tatum is top 10"

"Jokic is a negative on D"

"Wemby is already the GOAT" :roll:

-RRR3


Guy is like a vending machine of stupid takes.

[Neal Romer]

is giddey the aaron hernandez of the nba? skeletons in his closet?


Anyyy skeletonsss...?

Annnn-yyyyyyyy skeletonssssssssss????


IN. THE. CLOS. ET!