"Dennis Rodman, not MJ beat us in the Finals" - Shawn Kemp

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzPSm7cBL_A

[RRR3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzPSm7cBL_A
"He was just jealous of MJ!"-same people who take ever criticism of LeBron as factual.

[sdot_thadon]

Uh oh, Kemp work for Klutch too?

[3ba11]

Take Rodman away and the Bulls still win

Take Jordan away and the Bulls easily lose

It's quite simple - Jordan was the only scorer on the team - it was 1 on 5 offensively, so that's more valuable than Rodman's replaceable rebounding and defense.. Jordan also played goat defense and held down Hawkins, especially in Game 6... Jordan held Hawkins to 12 points below his average in Game 6, which matters because the Bulls won by 12 and everyone else let their man go off

Jordan also saved a bed-wetting Pippen in that series (15.7 on 34%) by defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).

TLDR: Kemp is jumping on the "shit on MJ bandwagon" because it's popular right now and I suspect that there's financial incentive - he needs money.. Maybe Klutch can add him to the team or already has

[warriorfan]

Shawn Kemp.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Almost all championship teams have at least 3 guys without whom they couldn't have won the title. Trying to give all credit to one player is stupid.

[ArbitraryWater]

Uh oh, Kemp work for Klutch too?

:oldlol:

[SATAN]

Jordan was a great player (possibly the second best ever) but all us that didn't idolize him knew how good that Bulls team was. On another note, shame how Kemp's career kinda got cut short. He kept getting better and then it just went the opposite way. I still had hope for him in Cleveland. :lol

[Hey Yo]

Rodman received multiple FMVP votes that series but we're supposed to believe Bulls still win without him.

:rolleyes:

[3ba11]

Almost all championship teams have at least 3 guys without whom they couldn't have won the title. Trying to give all credit to one player is stupid.


MJ won with 3 different starting PF's - Horace, Rodman and Kukoc (the starter in 98' Playoffs) - so the PF position was a replaceable role player position for MJ, while Lebron needed perennial all-stars and franchise players at PF like AD, Bosh or Love - guys that had their own team.

It's an obvious difference - MJ played with scrub PF's by comparison

And you're right - basketball isn't 1 on 5 but the numbers show that Jordan was closer to winning that way than anyone else - he won with a bunch of cheap defenders and hustlers that had the lowest scoring numbers if any winning cast - there was no go-to option other than MJ - he's the only guy in history that played without a go-to teammate

[gengiskhan]

Uh oh, Kemp work for Klutch too?

If you dont know the back story.....

1994 or 1995, Pippen desperately wanted out of Chi Town seeing Horace sign that lucrative contract in 1995 with Orlando.

1994 Kemp was awesome. think they were #1 seed in west. but short on experience. 1st round shocking loss to Mutombo and Denver.

Ever since, as cool as Glove-kemp lob city duo was, that 1994 nuggets loss put some rift in young payton-kemp duo.

Krause wanted Kemp in Chicago. Kemp wanted out of seattle too. and he was peaking too. Making baby mamas left and right. night after night.

seattle actually drafted Pippen in 1987. for some reason it was taking longer...longer...past 1995 trade deadline.

and some guy said "I'M BACK" and rest is history as they say.

nonetheless, Kemp dislikes pippen. and he thinks head-2-head PF match-up VS Rodman broke wins in Bulls favor.

But the reality is, NO 1996 MJ, NO "sweeping" of Shaq-Penny, NO guaranteed win against 1996 NYK either.


To this day, I think MJ-Kemp-Rodman-Harper Quartet would've been BETTER than MJ-Pippen-Rodman-Harper Quartet.

Kemp would've easily taken rebounding load off 35-37 YO Rodman. And Pippen was declining like crazy offense wise.

[gengiskhan]

Rodman received multiple FMVP votes that series but we're supposed to believe Bulls still win without him.

:rolleyes:

Without 1996 MJ, Bulls aint beating 1996 Magic or even 1996 KYK.

Just like 1995 Bulls, 1996 Bulls might get knocked out by Zo-Timmy's MIA.

Please dont overestimate 35 YO Rodman who was mostly one Dimensional.

NBA had no answer to aging 33 YO Jordan's 33 PPG playoffs output.

That was 40% offensive output of low scoring 90s NBA teams of 80-85 pts.

Just think about it.

[gengiskhan]

Jordan was a great player (possibly the second best ever) but all us that didn't idolize him knew how good that Bulls team was. On another note, shame how Kemp's career kinda got cut short. He kept getting better and then it just went the opposite way. I still had hope for him in Cleveland. :lol

To this day, I think 1995 Pippen - Kemp trade should've definitely happen!

Krause had a killer keen eyesight on who was the best fit for the Bulls.

Kemp was literally peaking and 1996 Jordan was aging at 33 YO.

That MJ-Kemp-Rodman trio would've done better than MJ-Pip-Rodman trio.

the way Kemp played in 1996 finals, minus that 14 pts game. Kemp would've stole FMVP as Bull.

I would've loved to see Kemp-Zo match up, Kemp-Ewing match up, Kemp-Shaq match up in hindsight.

[sdot_thadon]

If you dont know the back story.....

1994 or 1995, Pippen desperately wanted out of Chi Town seeing Horace sign that lucrative contract in 1995 with Orlando.

1994 Kemp was awesome. think they were #1 seed in west. but short on experience. 1st round shocking loss to Mutombo and Denver.

Ever since, as cool as Glove-kemp lob city duo was, that 1994 nuggets loss put some rift in young payton-kemp duo.

Krause wanted Kemp in Chicago. Kemp wanted out of seattle too. and he was peaking too. Making baby mamas left and right. night after night.

seattle actually drafted Pippen in 1987. for some reason it was taking longer...longer...past 1995 trade deadline.

and some guy said "I'M BACK" and rest is history as they say.

nonetheless, Kemp dislikes pippen. and he thinks head-2-head PF match-up VS Rodman broke wins in Bulls favor.

But the reality is, NO 1996 MJ, NO "sweeping" of Shaq-Penny, NO guaranteed win against 1996 NYK either.


To this day, I think MJ-Kemp-Rodman-Harper Quartet would've been BETTER than MJ-Pippen-Rodman-Harper Quartet.

Kemp would've easily taken rebounding load off 35-37 YO Rodman. And Pippen was declining like crazy offense wise.

That ain't got shit to do with what I posted man, somethings wrong with you lol.

[Hey Yo]

Without 1996 MJ, Bulls aint beating 1996 Magic or even 1996 KYK.

Just like 1995 Bulls, 1996 Bulls might get knocked out by Zo-Timmy's MIA.

Please dont overestimate 35 YO Rodman who was mostly one Dimensional.

NBA had no answer to aging 33 YO Jordan's 33 PPG playoffs output.

That was 40% offensive output of low scoring 90s NBA teams of 80-85 pts.

Just think about it.

What's all that have to do with the 96 Finals series and 7ppg Rodman getting multiple FMVP votes?

[gengiskhan]

What's all that have to do with the 96 Finals series and 7ppg Rodman getting multiple FMVP votes?

Kemp conversation much ado about nothing.

He still hung up at that 14 pts finals game.

No 7 ppg player can ever be credited over 27+ppg player in 7 games series. Especially where ROAD wins are crucial.

May br in a sudden death NCAA final.

7-20-2 worth more than 28-4-2

[1987_Lakers]

Wes Unseld won FMVP over Elvin Hayes

[Hey Yo]

Kemp conversation much ado about nothing.

He still hung up at that 14 pts finals game.

No 7 ppg player can ever be credited over 27+ppg player in 7 games series. Especially where ROAD wins are crucial.

May br in a sudden death NCAA final.

7-20-2 worth more than 28-4-2

I didn't say Rodman deserved it, I merely pointed out the fact that a 7ppg player garnered multiple FMVP votes that series.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr7_W63CiAI

[Carbine]

To this day, I think 1995 Pippen - Kemp trade should've definitely happen!

Krause had a killer keen eyesight on who was the best fit for the Bulls.

Kemp was literally peaking and 1996 Jordan was aging at 33 YO.

That MJ-Kemp-Rodman trio would've done better than MJ-Pip-Rodman trio.

the way Kemp played in 1996 finals, minus that 14 pts game. Kemp would've stole FMVP as Bull.

I would've loved to see Kemp-Zo match up, Kemp-Ewing match up, Kemp-Shaq match up in hindsight.

They would have done better than a 3 peat? The Bulls literally produced the best possible outcome in those three years. I just want to know how you can do better than 3 titles in 3 years. Is it possible to win 4 in 3 years?

[gengiskhan]

They would have done better than a 3 peat? The Bulls literally produced the best possible outcome in those three years. I just want to know how you can do better than 3 titles in 3 years. Is it possible to win 4 in 3 years?

Do recall bruh!

1996 Title

was "touch and go" for Bulls despite 3-0 lead. Much to do with Pippen, now 31 YO, serious offensive decline. as he produced a legendary pathetic 16 PPG finals output. All those games besides 1 were "low scoring"

Out of 6 games, 5 could've gone either way. Take MJs steller ROAD game 3, 36 pts out. All 5 games could've gone either way. Thanks to Pippens legendary 16 PPG 2nd option


1997 Title

this was way beyond "touch and go." Game 1, bulls survived by a buzzer beater. Bulls inability to get past 90 pts was glaring. they may have won 69 games or 72 previously. Just like 1996, 1997 pts were too low. No wonder series tied 2-2. Knowing very well, Pathetic Pippen and Co. has ZERO chance of winning Game 5 without Stomach flu MJ, he had to suit up. somehow vomit out 38 pts game winner.

You ever re-watch 1997 finals. Its scary how Bulls escaped with that ring. every bulls victory is like 2-4 pts. could've easily gone other way. my point. Malone and Stockton were well oiled machine. may have choked here and there. helped bulls out.


1998 Title.

Bulls should have LOST imo. Malone should've been the FMVP and Jazz should've won. 1998 Game 6, Bulls were helped out by refs. 5 pts swing in bulls favor on the ROAD. usually, refs favor home teams. Harper shot should not count, it was clear shot clock violation. Howard Isely 3 pointer should count. Entire Final Pippen was a disaster. and injured both. Rodman was a shell of himself and Malone was owning him everywhere. this finals was Jordan helped by Kukoc show. after 3-1 lead, If Bulls could not close out Game 5, they lost there!. Refs helped out 1998 Bulls in game 6 clealry. Now, add MJ heroics in last minute, it was just about enough to lift title. I cannot imagine what Jazz would've done to Bulls in Game 7 at their home!.

so question is, how can bulls do better than 3-peat 3 years. With Kemp, the 3peat would've been lot more comfortable. Bulls regularly scoring 100+ pts every 3rd game in finals. Kemp sneaking in FMVP in 1996 finals.

[FilmyCogTurner]

There's a good chance Kemp feels Rodman was the X-factor because he was matched up with him for the majority of the series. You're going to recognize players that are directly opposed to you.

[Axe]

What's all that have to do with the 96 Finals series and 7ppg Rodman getting multiple FMVP votes?
Don't make them bring up jason terry in 2011 as a counter, you dimwit.

[jlip]

There's a good chance Kemp feels Rodman was the X-factor because he was matched up with him for the majority of the series. You're going to recognize players that are directly opposed to you.

Nah. It's not that simple. George Karl, the coach of the Sonics, literally said the same thing in real time during the actual series. Here is just one article from June 8, 1996 (https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html) following Game 2 of the Finals. The article's title is "N.B.A. FINALS;Once Again, Rodman Is Most Valuable Bull." Not only did Karl mention that Rodman was the X-factor, other Sonics' players such as Hershey Hawkins and Vincent Askew said the same thing at the time. I mean, the Bulls literally shot a significantly worst fg% than the Sonics during that series. The difference was the offensive rebounds which gave the Bulls extra opportunities to make up for their missed shots. Rodman tied the Finals record for offensive rebounds twice in the series. He received FMVP votes from the media. So it's neither revisionist history nor merely Kemp showing respect to the player whom he matched up against. Several people were claiming that Rodman was the X-factor during those Finals back in 1996.

[Axe]

Nah. It's not that simple. George Karl, the coach of the Sonics, literally said the same thing in real time during the actual series. Here is just one article from June 8, 1996 (https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html) following Game 2 of the Finals. The article's title is "N.B.A. FINALS;Once Again, Rodman Is Most Valuable Bull." Not only did Karl mention that Rodman was the X-factor, other Sonics' players such as Hershey Hawkins and Vincent Askew said the same thing at the time. I mean, the Bulls literally shot a significantly worst fg% than the Sonics during that series. The difference was the offensive rebounds which gave the Bulls extra opportunities to make up for their missed shots. Rodman tied the Finals record for offensive rebounds twice in the series. He received FMVP votes from the media. So it's neither revisionist history nor merely Kemp showing respect to the player whom he matched up against. Several people were claiming that Rodman was the X-factor during those Finals back in 1996.
Why would rodman be heavily sought bt if krause didn't find him to become useful for the team? :confusedshrug:

[warriorfan]

I didn't say Rodman deserved it, I merely pointed out the fact that a 7ppg player garnered multiple FMVP votes that series.

the voters are trash

if you want to go all in and cuck your own judgements and opinions to some rando sports journalists, that’s all you

Im not having any part of it

[1987_Lakers]

Nah. It's not that simple. George Karl, the coach of the Sonics, literally said the same thing in real time during the actual series. Here is just one article from June 8, 1996 (https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html) following Game 2 of the Finals. The article's title is "N.B.A. FINALS;Once Again, Rodman Is Most Valuable Bull." Not only did Karl mention that Rodman was the X-factor, other Sonics' players such as Hershey Hawkins and Vincent Askew said the same thing at the time. I mean, the Bulls literally shot a significantly worst fg% than the Sonics during that series. The difference was the offensive rebounds which gave the Bulls extra opportunities to make up for their missed shots. Rodman tied the Finals record for offensive rebounds twice in the series. He received FMVP votes from the media. So it's neither revisionist history nor merely Kemp showing respect to the player whom he matched up against. Several people were claiming that Rodman was the X-factor during those Finals back in 1996.

Yea, I would still give the FMVP to MJ, but that was his worst Finals performance, he played horrible from games 4-6. Rodman having two games with 11 offensive rebounds is shit that you will never see again, but he was too much of a non factor offensively for him to get the award when you consider what MJ did in the first 3 games.

[HoopsNY]

There's a good chance Kemp feels Rodman was the X-factor because he was matched up with him for the majority of the series. You're going to recognize players that are directly opposed to you.

He wasn't. Longley was Kemp's primary defender. Phil made the switch after Kemp dominated Rodman in game 1. It was a good move tbh because it allowed Dennis to roam freely to grab rebounds and offer help defense.

[SATAN]

George Karl, the coach of the Sonics, literally said the same thing in real time during the actual series. Here is just one article from June 8, 1996 (https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html) following Game 2 of the Finals. The article's title is "N.B.A. FINALS;Once Again, Rodman Is Most Valuable Bull." Not only did Karl mention that Rodman was the X-factor, other Sonics' players such as Hershey Hawkins and Vincent Askew said the same thing at the time.

Marv Albert in 95: "Pippen is the best all around player in the game"

Oh yeah, and this happened in 97:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2BlOTeoZVE

:eek: