Support Group thread for MJ stans in these troubling times

[RRR3]

Let it all out here, fellas, I know learning your childhood was a lie is tough

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2024/S7PyT5.gif

^^^ Alvin Robertson and MJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0M2WPEkE_w&t=09m18s

All players experience higher stocks at home, but MJ was the only DPOY on the list with high blocks AND steals, so his bounce was higher than the other 1-dimensional DPOY's on the list... See the chart above that shows Alvin Robertson with equal bounce in steals at home but Alvin wasn't a shot-blocker, so his overall bounce in stocks wasn't quite as high as Jordan's..

Similarly, the shot-blocking bigs didn't steal the ball much, so they didn't see bounce in steals like Alvin or MJ... Again, only MJ saw bounce in both because he's the only guy that was doing both (elite steals and blocks), so his overall stocks bounce is a little higher than the normal bounce that the other DPOY's got..

So that's the trick and the fraud that Tom Haberstroh and Klutch Sports perpetrated - Jordan's overall stocks bounce was slightly higher because he was the only DPOY that had high volume of both blocks and steals... The 5-game sample was used to say that Jordan's slightly-higher home bounce was due to bad record-keeping instead - but we know that it's actually because he was such a goat all-round defender (blocks and steals), while the other DPOY's on the list were 1-dimensional and only saw bounces in the one category (blocks OR steals).

And again - regarding the big bounce in home steals for guards like Alvin Robertson or MJ - they have 2-way burdens and therefore higher energy burdens - so apparently, when they lack the crowd boost on the road, they manage their higher energy burden by gambling less and getting less steals.

Before entering their first playoffs, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach and a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:


05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.... No All-D


^^^ Jordan would obviously 3-peat with all that

Obvious projection - Lebron teamed up with rivals and opposing franchise players, not Jordan...

Jordan had to grow and 8 ppg rookie into a 15-20 ppg bricklayer and win with that crap, while Lebron was gifted the 2nd and 3rd best players in his conference to team up with - he diluted his conference and consolidated power on his team.. He also entered the league with the East all-star center on his team, and before entering their first playoffs, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach and a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball (see stats above) yikes

MJ won with 3 different starting PF's - Horace, Rodman and Kukoc (the starter in 98' Playoffs) - so the PF position was a replaceable role player position for MJ, while Lebron needed perennial all-stars and franchise players at PF like AD, Bosh or Love - guys that had their own team.

It's an obvious difference - MJ played with scrub PF's by comparison

And you're right - basketball isn't 1 on 5 but the numbers show that Jordan was closer to winning that way than anyone else - he won with a bunch of cheap defenders and hustlers that had the lowest scoring numbers if any winning cast - there was no go-to option other than MJ - he's the only guy in history that played without a go-to teammate

Thread Cliffs

High steals players like Alvin Robertson and MJ have 2x steals at home

High blocks players like Eaton and MJ have 2x blocks at home

Only MJ had high steals and blocks, so his overall "stocks" inflation at home was a little higher than the norm

The 5-game sample is meant to refute this and say that MJ's abnormal home inflation is due to bad record-keeping... But obviously, a 5-game sample isn't viable and no sample is possible because there's no reason to believe the new subjective ruling is any better than the original.. Subjective stats like steals, blocks, assists and rebounds are set in stone - there's no effective review of them.

Team records are always much better at home because players perform much better at home - Jaren jackson showed this kind of home boost in 2023 when he won DPOY and so did prior DPOY's - so there's no evidence the stats were inflated in prior eras.. Teams and players simply perform much better at home and always have..

Btw, the lower overall home inflation in the modern game is due to road trips not being the drain that they once were due to private jets and modern accommodations, while also having easier scheduling for road trips than prior eras (more days in between).. And fans are generally nicer and get thrown out if they bother players.. It's just different.

Ultimately, Jordan's slightly higher bounce at home than other DPOY's like Jaren Jackson or Alvin Robertson is because high shot-blockers see great boost at home on blocks (Eaton or Jaren Jackson), while high steals guys see a great boost in steals (Robertson), but Jordan is the only DPOY that is high in both categories - so his overall "stock" inflation (blocks and steals combined) is a little higher.. In addition being elite in both steals and blocks, MJ was the goat scorer, so these factors made him a unique DPOY with different stats than normal DPOY's.

The 5-game sample is meant to refute this and say that MJ's abnormal home inflation is due to bad record-keeping.. But obviously, a 5-game sample isn't viable and no sample is possible because there's no reason to believe the new subjective ruling is any better than the original.. Subjective stats like steals, blocks, assists and rebounds are set in stone - there's no effective review of them

MJ is being blatantly lied about

That's the difference

Otoh, Lebron's career has more than enough flaws that anyone can just close their eyes and point to anywhere on his career timeline and there will probably be a screw-up of some kind... Anyone can look at his stats and see the clear flaws in FT's, turnovers and low assisted rate (ball-domination), or poor jumpshooting and clutch efficiency., and also numerous instances of shooting poorly from three at high volume (3+ attempts)... Jordan has none of these flaws and zero weaknesses

Take Rodman away and the Bulls still win

Take Jordan away and the Bulls easily lose

It's quite simple - Jordan was the only scorer on the team - it was 1 on 5 offensively, so that's more valuable than Rodman's replaceable rebounding and defense.. Jordan also played goat defense and held down Hawkins, especially in Game 6... Jordan held Hawkins to 12 points below his average in Game 6, which matters because the Bulls won by 12 and everyone else let their man go off

Jordan also saved a bed-wetting Pippen in that series (15.7 on 34%) by defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).

TLDR: Kemp is jumping on the "shit on MJ bandwagon" because it's popular right now and I suspect that there's financial incentive - he needs money.. Maybe Klutch can add him to the team or already has

The NBA did a top 10 dunks video for the 91' Finals and left off 2 of his best dunks

Other videos from the NBA short him on highlights as well - it's pretty standard.. they don't have to show every steal, and probably showed the best ones.

And if this was standard practice to add a few steals to Jordan's total, then why not find more high-steal games that were false? Jordan had a ton of 5+ steal games and it wouldn't be hard to get a bigger sample size

But right now, it's pure bs with literally no sample size. Even the OP video isn't an example because it doesn't prove that MJ didn't have 10 steals

Klutch found a way to punish MJ for his goat steals rate by saying he was "just gambling and actually hurting his team"

Do you have any idea how false this is?

[SATAN]

Good thread, OP!

[3ba11]

it's been long debunked - MJ was DPOY and the greatest perimeter defender of all-time based on his DPOY and also his goat track record of holding his primary assignments to poor shooting (goat individual defense) and goat help defense, and goat leadership...

[RRR3]

it's been long debunked - MJ was DPOY and the greatest perimeter defender of all-time based on his DPOY and also his goat track record of holding his primary assignments to poor shooting (goat individual defense) and goat help defense, and goat leadership...
That's right, we're here for you. Let it alllll out.

[3ba11]

That's right, we're here for you. Let it alllll out.


It's fun because it allows Jordan fans to keep stanning him and it's like he's still playing since his name is in everyone's mouths

And it's fun to debunk these wild claims and Klutch Sports propaganda

people are realizing that MJ deserved DPOY in both 87' and 88'.... Like, why didn't he win it in 87'?... No wonder he was pissed heading into 88'

[RRR3]

https://media.tenor.com/BzsItjy_z2EAAAAM/crying-still.gif'
https://y.yarn.co/5cf6c0d2-a558-4a2f-a818-32f584dea40e_text.gif

[j3lademaster]

Wasn’t the JJJ home/away stocks ‘scandal’ investigated heavily by the nba during his dpoy season? The nba ended up going through all of the footage and actually found very little error and players having higher stocks at home was actually the norm.

[3ba11]

Wasn’t the JJJ home/away stocks ‘scandal’ investigated heavily by the nba during his dpoy season? The nba ended up going through all of the footage and actually found very little error and players having higher stocks at home was actually the norm.


and that's the reason for the 5-game sample - it's to show that the home inflation for Jordan was due to bad-record keeping and not anything else.

but we know that high shot-blockers like Jaren Jackson or Eaton have big inflation on blocks at home, while high steals guys have big inflation on steals at home (Alvin Robertson)... But only MJ has high blocks AND steals, so his combined "stocks" inflation is slightly higher than the norm.. Again, the 5-game sample is meant to show that it's bad record keeping instead of a more viable reason like this.

[ShawkFactory]

and that's the reason for the 5-game sample - it's to show that the home inflation for Jordan was due to bad-record keeping and not anything else.

but we know that high shot-blockers like Jaren Jackson or Eaton have big inflation on blocks at home, while high steals guys have big inflation on steals at home (Alvin Robertson)... But only MJ has high blocks AND steals, so his combined "stocks" inflation is slightly higher than the norm.. Again, the 5-game sample is meant to show that it's bad record keeping instead of a more viable reason like this.

Only MJ, eh?

[j3lademaster]

Only MJ, eh?in 1990, Hakeem had 8.2 stocks at home and 5.2 stocks away. 6.7 stocks average is absolutely insane.

[3ba11]

Only MJ, eh?


Among the guys on the list in the article, only MJ had high steals AND blocks, hence the slightly higher home inflation than everyone else that only had high steals OR blocks...

Again, high blocks players like Eaton or Jaren Jackson have high inflation at home on blocks, while high steals guys have high inflation on steals... But only MJ was high in both categories, hence his combined "stocks" inflation being higher than the norm.

The 5-game sample was to show that Jordan's abnormal inflation WASN'T due to reasons like this, and instead due to bad record-keeping... but obviously, a 5-game sample means literally nothing... this whole thing is a pretty flimsy attempt to take MJ down




Only MJ, eh?

Hakeem........ 27 and DPOY
Jordan.......... 35 and DPOY

[3ba11]

in 1990, Hakeem had 8.2 stocks at home and 5.2 stocks away. 6.7 stocks average is absolutely insane.


Less days off on the road for previous eras - this alone accounts for the inferior stats on the road

And it wasn't the curry spacing era with low physicality and everyone rode coach... no modern amenities or comforts... and crowds were super-mean - players weren't allowed to kick out fans.

so Adam Silver has made considerable efforts to normalize the home/road transition and it's worked - the modern game sees much less difference in home/road than previous eras where road trips were a massive hassle.. it's like trying to do math without a calculator

[8Ball]

Let it all out here, fellas, I know learning your childhood was a lie is tough

They truly shafted Pippen, stole blocks and steals from him to boost MJ to get the league TV ratings up.

Shameful.

[theman93]

in 1990, Hakeem had 8.2 stocks at home and 5.2 stocks away. 6.7 stocks average is absolutely insane.

That discrepancy is alarming. I am sure Haberstroh will have an article out any day now to investigate this. Only this time I am confident he will include links to the games and have a greater than 5 game sample size :pimp:

[ShawkFactory]

Among the guys on the list in the article, only MJ had high steals AND blocks, hence the slightly higher home inflation than everyone else that only had high steals OR blocks...

Again, high blocks players like Eaton or Jaren Jackson have high inflation at home on blocks, while high steals guys have high inflation on steals... But only MJ was high in both categories, hence his combined "stocks" inflation being higher than the norm.

The 5-game sample was to show that Jordan's abnormal inflation WASN'T due to reasons like this, and instead due to bad record-keeping... but obviously, a 5-game sample means literally nothing... this whole thing is a pretty flimsy attempt to take MJ down





Hakeem........ 27 and DPOY
Jordan.......... 35 and DPOY

:lol

David Robinson too though.

[1987_Lakers]

Was not expecting this type of meltdown from MJ stans this weekend.

[Carbine]

I made a note when watching the first three peat that Jordans individual man defense was nothing that jumped off the screen. Neither was Pippens either for the record besides a few 3-4 minute stretches over the course of 12 series.

Magic was kind of bullying Jordan in the finals - if Magic missed it was just because he missed an easy shot and had nothing to do with MJs defense.

History wants us to think MJ was locking his matchup up and not letting any penetration or open looks on his watch but the tape does not support that in the first three peat overall.

[1987_Lakers]

I made a note when watching the first three peat that Jordans individual man defense was nothing that jumped off the screen. Neither was Pippens either for the record besides a few 3-4 minute stretches over the course of 12 series.

Magic was kind of bullying Jordan in the finals - if Magic missed it was just because he missed an easy shot and had nothing to do with MJs defense.

History wants us to think MJ was locking his matchup up and not letting any penetration or open looks on his watch but the tape does not support that in the first three peat overall.

He was a gambler, always swiping at the ball looking for a steal. He was great at jumping passing lanes, but got burnt alot of times because of his gambles.

His man defense was pretty good, he always stayed in front of his guy for the most part (not counting the gambles), but it wasn't at the level of Michael Cooper or GP who were known lock down defenders.

[Bawkish]

They truly shafted Pippen, stole blocks and steals from him to boost MJ to get the league TV ratings up.

Shameful.

Even his wife too

[3ba11]

I made a note when watching the first three peat that Jordans individual man defense was nothing that jumped off the screen. Neither was Pippens either for the record besides a few 3-4 minute stretches over the course of 12 series.

Magic was kind of bullying Jordan in the finals - if Magic missed it was just because he missed an easy shot and had nothing to do with MJs defense.

History wants us to think MJ was locking his matchup up and not letting any penetration or open looks on his watch but the tape does not support that in the first three peat overall.


History shows that Jordan held nearly every primary defensive matchup to 35-43% shooting and this includes Magic, Drexler, Dumars, Isiah, Harper, Starks, Nick Anderson, Steve Smith - nearly everyone - this is a goat record of individual defense that only MJ has - only MJ held his primary matchup to bad shooting as a standard.. For example, Dumars shot badly in 3 of the 4 series against the Bulls... Ditto Isiah... This was standard for MJ...

The bad shooting seemed to trickle over to the point guards too because Price, KJ, Porter, Hardaway and others shot like garbage - MJ often did spot-duty on point guards and occasionally as the primary defender as well, but it was Jordan's offensive onslaught that wore down backcourts and affected their legs, confidence and ultimately efficiency.

So MJ has the goat record of individual defense, while also being a goat help defender, goat in passing lanes and goat leader, aka the goat perimeter defender bar none.. Someone just pointed out that Michael Cooper basically bought the 87' DPOY off the bench - this analysis is showing that MJ deserved the DPOY in both 87' and 88'... he was clearly robbed in 87'.

[rmt]

These are not troubling times (MJ-wise). It's been over 2 decades since he retired, and people are STILL arguing over him.

I'm no MJ stan - been watching the NBA since 1977 and he's still the GOAT to me.

[gengiskhan]

These are not troubling times (MJ-wise). It's been over 2 decades since he retired, and people are STILL arguing over him.

I'm no MJ stan - been watching the NBA since 1977 and he's still the GOAT to me.

same here!

MJ will always be GOAT for me. He beat the shyte out of my 90s NYKs.

I agree with two players over the decades regarding MJ.

MJ is the most complete ATG Bball player there ever was who had strong fundamentals - Kenny Smith.

MJ is the most skilled player who ever played the game and his skillset was off the charts - Jerry West.

Nobody knew the game better than Jerry West.

Kobe talked about MJ too. The moves, footwork and dribbles MJ had that were surgically precise with no wasted movements.

[8Ball]

These are not troubling times (MJ-wise). It's been over 2 decades since he retired, and people are STILL arguing over him.

I'm no MJ stan - been watching the NBA since 1977 and he's still the GOAT to me.

They're arguing over him because LeBron just surpassed him not too long ago on the GOAT debate.


LeBron will ALWAYS be GOAT for me and close to 30-40% of the NBA fan base. Once the old nostalgic fans die off in 20-30 years, it will be 60-70% LeBron GOAT.

[3ba11]

People don't realize that Haberstroh's article has been debunked but most people still won't ever know that this was a fraud perpetrated by Lebron and Klutch Sports.

But here are the facts for anyone that wants to avoid being a victim of fraud:

In the 80's and 90's, it was common to have a road trips with 8 games in 13 nights while flying coach, and these tougher road conditions yielded much worse road records than today's teams.. Only 2 teams had road records above .500 in 1988, compared to half the league today (15 teams)... Accordingly, the "normal" home inflation that occurred for everyone in previous eras was due to tougher road conditions and horrible road records compared to today's teams.. So that explains the "normal" inflation, while the massive one-offs of extreme inflation like 88' Jordan, 90' Hakeem or 86' Robertson are likely due to personal issues that affected their home/road performance in that particular year..

In contrast to the logic above, in order to believe Haberstroh's narrative, you must believe that there was a massive conspiracy by record-keepers league-wide to pad everyone's home stats, which is absurd.

[1987_Lakers]

It's been hilarious seeing 3ball meltdown these past few days. His hero has been exposed.

[3ba11]

It's been hilarious seeing 3ball meltdown these past few days. His hero has been exposed.


It's fun debunking this stuff and it only took a couple days in this case to see through the high school-level analysis.

Subjective stats cannot be reviewed because there's no reason to believe the 2nd subjective ruling will be better than the 1st.. I posted a gif of one of the plays that Haberstroh talks about and it was a Jordan steal!!!.. I'll take the word of the original, professional score-keepers ove some guy 40 years later with an axe to grind.. These are subjective reviews of close calls and anyone can reverse a few by taking the most negative interpretation of every play.

Here's the actual facts that aren't subjective - 2 teams had records above .500 in 1988 compared to 15 teams today - these tougher road conditions and poor road records is why we see normal levels of home inflation in previous eras, while the one-offs of massive inflation by 88' Jordan, 90' Hakeem or 86' Robertson are likely due to personal reasons that affected home/road performance for that particular year.

[j3lademaster]

Even for those who don’t believe MJ has been surpassed, saying “he will always” be your goat is shortsighted at best. It’s a take from someone who is willing to hate the development of the entire sport of basketball to keep Jordan on a pedestal.

[3ba11]

Even for those who don’t believe MJ has been surpassed, saying “he will always” be your goat is shortsighted at best. It’s a take from someone who is willing to hate the development of the entire sport of basketball to keep Jordan on a pedestal.


Agreed... I would never and have never said that MJ will always been my GOAT... I'm severely looking forward to seeing better basketball than Michael Jordan - imagine how insane that would be - I can't wait for it to happen but unfortunately, it probably won't happen in my lifetime.

[Hey Yo]

Agreed... I would never and have never said that MJ will always been my GOAT... I'm severely looking forward to seeing better basketball than Michael Jordan - imagine how insane that would be - I can't wait for it to happen but unfortunately, it probably won't happen in my lifetime.
LeBron

[rmt]

They're arguing over him because LeBron just surpassed him not too long ago on the GOAT debate.


LeBron will ALWAYS be GOAT for me and close to 30-40% of the NBA fan base. Once the old nostalgic fans die off in 20-30 years, it will be 60-70% LeBron GOAT.

And that's your rebuttal? - that people like me (who have lived through both MJ and Lebron) will die off and (by default) only Lebron stans will be around - lol. By that logic, what happens when Lebron stans get old and die out? Why, only the record/history book will be around. And in all the MAJOR categories considered important like championships (by 50%) and MVPs, MJ will still be ahead of Lebron.

[8Ball]

And that's your rebuttal? - that people like me (who have lived through both MJ and Lebron) will die off and (by default) only Lebron stans will be around - lol. By that logic, what happens when Lebron stans get old and die out? Why, only the record/history book will be around. And in all the MAJOR categories considered important like championships (by 50%) and MVPs, MJ will still be ahead of Lebron.

When nostalgia is dead, meaning both you dead, and one day me dead, the future NBA fans will look back and there is ZERO way any of them pick Jordan as the GOAT.



Jordan just can't be the GOAT when LeBron is the superior basketball player with the greatest career.

[8Ball]

In contrast to the logic above, in order to believe Haberstroh's narrative, you must believe that there was a massive conspiracy by record-keepers league-wide to pad everyone's home stats, which is absurd.

There was no massive conspiracy.


There was just 1 stat keeper that juiced the shit out of Jordan's 1988 season. The Bull's stat keeper, nobody else kept stats back then.


The rest of the stat keepers kept the cheating on the very low end. 1988 is just eggregious, 180% difference between home and away?!?!?

[ImKobe]

When nostalgia is dead, meaning both you dead, and one day me dead, the future NBA fans will look back and there is ZERO way any of them pick Jordan as the GOAT.



Jordan just can't be the GOAT when LeBron is the superior basketball player with the greatest career.

Lebron will be just as irrelevant, yet you spend countless hours defending his stance in NBA's history. It doesn't matter.

[8Ball]

Lebron will be just as irrelevant, yet you spend countless hours defending his stance in NBA's history. It doesn't matter.


I am correcting the Jordan record and I am having a very fun time doing it.


Kinda like waving goodbye to the fools on the titanic while my Bran banana boat passes them by.

[gengiskhan]

Lebron will be just as irrelevant, yet you spend countless hours defending his stance in NBA's history. It doesn't matter.

LePEDs is already irrelevant.

Why do you think he forcefully inserted himself with Kyrie's name in 2024 NBA Finals.

it is not a co-incidence.

It is to put additional pressure on Kyrie saying Luka aint me and this is not 2016.

As he has gotten older, he has become, dirty, slimy, vendictive bastard.

This is not the LBJ pre-2011. This is a bitter old man.

[SATAN]

8ball destroying these clowns :rockon:

[gengiskhan]

Weird Cvnt

[8Ball]

LePEDs is already irrelevant.

Why do you think he forcefully inserted himself with Kyrie's name in 2024 NBA Finals.

it is not a co-incidence.

It is to put additional pressure on Kyrie saying Luka aint me and this is not 2016.

As he has gotten older, he has become, dirty, slimy, vendictive bastard.

This is not the LBJ pre-2011. This is a bitter old man.

LeBron is irrelevant right now yet Bran is all you talk about and make threads about.


LeBron very relevant, as relevant as anything in the NBA to talk about right now.