1987_Lakers said roster deficit at 3 thru 7 spots "2 much 2 overcome" (why Mavs lost)

[3ba11]

.
The GOAT won 6 of 6 Finals with massive deficits at the 3 thru 7 roster spots:




1992 Finals

3. Kersey 14.8
4. Robinson 10.3
5. Ainge 10.0
6. Duckworth 9.3
7. Williams 7.8
________________
52.2 of 96.7 (53.9%)


3. Paxson 10.3
4. Grant 9.2
5. Cartwright 6.3
6. Armstrong 5.8
7. Williams 5.5
________________
37.1 of 104.0 (35.6%)


GAP: 18.3 percentage points



2024 FINALS

3. Holiday 14.4
4. White 13.8
5. Porzingas 12.3
6. Hauser 8.2
7. Horford 7.0
________________
55.7 of 101.6 (54.8%)


3. Washington 10.8
4. Gafford 8.0
5. Jones Jr. 6.6
6. Lively 5.6
7. Green 5.4
________________
36.4 points of 99.2 (36.7%)


GAP: 17.9 percentage points


I'm sure this confirms for 1987_Lakers that MJ is the goat by far, since he's obviously so much better than Luka

[Axe]

1-9

Pippen > kobe

Klay > oubre jr.

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen outplayed Drexler

[3ba11]

1-9

Pippen > kobe

Klay > oubre jr.


Why is Luka so much worse than Jordan - Jordan did 6 times what Luka just failed to do... Btw, the 98' Jazz who beat experienced veterans like Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem to make the Finals would destroy the 24' Celtics, who beat no one and beat a young, diluted league of weak comp

[tpols]

You see...

This is a legit analysis. All the numbers to boot. It's CRAZY how bad Dallas played outside Luka and Kyrie. They were totally shook.

[3ba11]

You see...

This is a legit analysis. All the numbers to boot. It's CRAZY how bad Dallas played outside Luka and Kyrie. They were totally shook.


It was completely predictable that Luka's cast would play badly in the Finals - his brand of ball falls just short of Finals-caliber and can't really compete on the Finals level.. In the face of a superior brand of ball and being worn down more than the opponent for the first time in the playoffs, the cast collapsed... Expect many more shellackings on the championship level for Luka.. He'll need 2 star teammates and he'll still mostly lose.. It's his brand of ball - high-scoring ball-domination mostly loses regardless of cast.

[Axe]

Pippen > kyrie

[3ba11]

.
24' Kyrie....... 20 on 41%... 5 apg.. 1.7 tov.. 1.5 clutch ppg
97' Pippen..... 20 on 42%... 3 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.0 clutch ppg


^^^ the 97' Finals were Pippen's best Finals during the 2nd three-peat, by far.

The best players win Finals with bed-wetting sidekicks like 03' Duncan, 94' Hakeem, 00' Shaq, and MJ.. And Kyrie's offense actually wouldn't qualify as "sucking" compared to the worst-performing, winning sidekicks... Of course, Kyrie played better than Pippen ever did to make these Finals, so there's that.[





Pippen > kyrie


GM's must surround Pippen with expensive scorers and spacers, which hurts the team's ability to add defenders, while Kyrie's superior offense allows GM's to surround him with cheap defenders and a better defensive team.. This is why guys like Kyrie and Curry are frequently on great defensive teams - their ability to carry the offensive load allows GM's more capacity to add defenders than pippen allows.

So there's many ways to skin a cat and have great team defense - the only individual defenders that move the needle are all-time shot-blocking bigs.. For everyone else, individual defense matters little in player comparisons because of the above dynamic (defense is a 5-man game with many ways to skin a cat).

With Kyrie not hurting a team's defense and actually allowing greater capacity to add defenders than Pippen, we can just look at offense, where Kyrie is far superior at scoring, assists, spacing, clutch, leadership and peak capability (pip wasn't on scouting report according to shaq)

[Axe]

And once again...

Klay > oubre jr.

[3ba11]

And once again...

Klay > oubre jr.


Ingram turned out tho didn't he.. I remember when he played with Lebron and everyone hated him... Guy becomes an all-star immediately upon leaving LeBadChemsitry

[SouBeachTalents]

Scottie Pippen is a better and more impactful player than Kyrie. The Bulls get significantly worse with Kyrie in Pippen's place.

[ShawkFactory]

It was too much. The quality of player for the Celtics 3-5 in particular is drastic. Not even just performance in the series but on paper.

[3ba11]

Scottie Pippen is a better and more impactful player than Kyrie. The Bulls get significantly worse with Kyrie in Pippen's place.


Nonsense, especially if we're talking about the 2nd three-peat Bulls... Kukoc is the perfect spacer and clutch closer to take Pippen's spot (the opposite of pippen) - Kukoc already led Pippen in 4th quarter points and clutch points for the 98' Playoffs, while the Bulls were the #1 defense without Pippen in 98' before he returned from injury because they still had Rodman/Jordan/Longley... The Bulls basically didn't have Pippen for most of 1998 considering he was out for half the regular season and MIA in the playoffs.. So the 2nd three-peat Bulls would cruise with peak Kyrie in Pippen's place - peak Kyrie outplayed league MVP's and was equal-scoring partner to your GOAT, while making the Finals without Lebron - all these things demonstrate a superior caliber than Pippen is capable.. Btw, the 1st three-peat Bulls would also be better with Kyrie except they need to find an actual replacement for Pippen - they wouldn't already have one on the bench (low bar to replace pip).. Horry or Cliff Robinson would be perfect to get on the cheap and then get a couple other pieces to fill in the gaps.

[nayte]

Nonsense, especially if we're talking about the 2nd three-peat Bulls... Kukoc is the perfect spacer and clutch closer to take Pippen's spot (the opposite of pippen) - Kukoc already led Pippen in 4th quarter points and clutch points for the 98' Playoffs, while the Bulls were the #1 defense without Pippen in 98' before he returned from injury because they still had Rodman/Jordan/Longley... The Bulls basically didn't have Pippen for most of 1998 considering he was out for half the regular season and MIA in the playoffs.. So the 2nd three-peat Bulls would cruise with peak Kyrie in Pippen's place - peak Kyrie outplayed league MVP's and was equal-scoring partner to your GOAT, while making the Finals without Lebron - all these things demonstrate a superior caliber than Pippen is capable.. Btw, the 1st three-peat Bulls would also be better with Kyrie except they need to find an actual replacement for Pippen - they wouldn't already have one on the bench (low bar to replace pip).. Horry or Cliff Robinson would be perfect to get on the cheap and then get a couple other pieces to fill in the gaps.

No . In this case Pip is more valuable.others I might agree with u

[j3lademaster]

The only thing 1987_Lakers got wrong is that it was actually roster spots 2-7.

[SouBeachTalents]

You see...

This is a legit analysis. All the numbers to boot. It's CRAZY how bad Dallas played outside Luka and Kyrie. They were totally shook.
Kyrie played like ass too.

[StrongLurk]

OP is wrong, since Kyrie got outplayed too. Also need to factor in defensive abilities too.

OP needs to run the numbers for 2-7 ppg in the finals for both teams.

And yes, MJ is better than Luka lol.

[tpols]

Kyrie played like ass too.

Ÿea but Kyrie was being defended by the best guard defender perhaps in the whole world. Two of them actually. Jrue and White. Same way OKC was limiting him in their series but PJ actually went off when open. Which made all the difference. Against Boston he was bricking everything.

[3ba11]

No . In this case Pip is more valuable.others I might agree with u


Kyrie would love playing with MJ because Kyrie gets to play the PG position and be the primary ball-handler like a traditional point guard.. He would love this... He's learned to adjust alongside Luka or Lebron but he never really liked it and he can just be himself alongside a big assist target and highly-assisted player like MJ without ever having to change - he wouldn't have to leave in 2017 and go through a watering down of his personality and conviction.. Many new fans might not realize this, but playing alongside the goat assist target and off-ball player in MJ is like playing alongside a great assist target like Klay - that's the way to think about the "fit" between MJ and Kyrie, except MJ offers Kyrie an assist target with 2 or 3 times the production rate and athleticism of Klay.

The 90's is filled with players taking point guards to the Finals like Malone taking Stockton, or Kemp taking Payton, or Clyde taking Terry Porter, or Dumars/Isiah in 90' - why wouldn't MJ vastly exceed this with peak Kyrie?... And we know that MJ turned bad athletes like Paxson, Hodges and BJ into good defenders, so why wouldn't he turn a goat talent like Kyrie into a great defender?... Kyrie would at least be very solid defensively alongside MJ because that's what many lesser-talented players did.

During the meaningful minutes of games when the defense is locked down in the half court, Pippen's scoring capacity compares to Derrick Jones Jr. - this is fact based on the eye test and clutch or 4th quarter stats.. In contrast to Derrick Jones, aka Pippen, we know that Kyrie outplayed peak Curry to win his first title and then he outplayed 80's Jordan (Ant) to make the Finals without Lebron..

The best team for Jordan would be as follows - Kyrie at PG and standard bangers at the 4 and 5 - Horace and Cartwright work but tons of guys could replace them like PJ Brown or Tyrone Hill - a million guys - Longley & Kukoc were the starters in the 98' Playoffs, so tons of guys can be at the 4 and 5... Then at the 3, a spacer/defender/clutch closer like Cliff Robinson, Horry or even prime Bobby Hansen at the 3 - tons of guys

[Hey Yo]

Kyrie would be lucky to avg. 15fga playing with Jordan.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kyrie would love playing with MJ because Kyrie gets to play the PG position and be the primary ball-handler like a traditional point guard.. He would love this... He's learned to adjust alongside Luka or Lebron but he never really liked it and he can just be himself alongside a big assist target and highly-assisted player like MJ without ever having to change - he wouldn't have to leave in 2017 and go through a watering down of his personality and conviction.. Many new fans might not realize this, but playing alongside the goat assist target and off-ball player in MJ is like playing alongside a great assist target like Klay - that's the way to think about the "fit" between MJ and Kyrie, except MJ offers Kyrie an assist target with 2 or 3 times the production rate and athleticism of Klay.

The 90's is filled with players taking point guards to the Finals like Malone taking Stockton, or Kemp taking Payton, or Clyde taking Terry Porter, or Dumars/Isiah in 90' - why wouldn't MJ vastly exceed this with peak Kyrie?... And we know that MJ turned bad athletes like Paxson, Hodges and BJ into good defenders, so why wouldn't he turn a goat talent like Kyrie into a great defender?... Kyrie would at least be very solid defensively alongside MJ because that's what many lesser-talented players did.

During the meaningful minutes of games when the defense is locked down in the half court, Pippen's scoring capacity compares to Derrick Jones Jr. - this is fact based on the eye test and clutch or 4th quarter stats.. In contrast to Derrick Jones, aka Pippen, we know that Kyrie outplayed peak Curry to win his first title and then he outplayed 80's Jordan (Ant) to make the Finals without Lebron..

The best team for Jordan would be as follows - Kyrie at PG and standard bangers at the 4 and 5 - Horace and Cartwright work but tons of guys could replace them like PJ Brown or Tyrone Hill - a million guys - Longley & Kukoc were the starters in the 98' Playoffs, so tons of guys can be at the 4 and 5... Then at the 3, a spacer/defender/clutch closer like Cliff Robinson, Horry or even prime Bobby Hansen at the 3 - tons of guys
Thinking Kyrie would be a better fit with Jordan than Pippen just proves you don't know shit about ball, you narrow everything down to "ppgz" like a casual.

[ShawkFactory]

Kyrie would love playing with MJ because Kyrie gets to play the PG position and be the primary ball-handler like a traditional point guard.. He would love this... He's learned to adjust alongside Luka or Lebron but he never really liked it and he can just be himself alongside a big assist target and highly-assisted player like MJ without ever having to change - he wouldn't have to leave in 2017 and go through a watering down of his personality and conviction.. Many new fans might not realize this, but playing alongside the goat assist target and off-ball player in MJ is like playing alongside a great assist target like Klay - that's the way to think about the "fit" between MJ and Kyrie, except MJ offers Kyrie an assist target with 2 or 3 times the production rate and athleticism of Klay.

The 90's is filled with players taking point guards to the Finals like Malone taking Stockton, or Kemp taking Payton, or Clyde taking Terry Porter, or Dumars/Isiah in 90' - why wouldn't MJ vastly exceed this with peak Kyrie?... And we know that MJ turned bad athletes like Paxson, Hodges and BJ into good defenders, so why wouldn't he turn a goat talent like Kyrie into a great defender?... Kyrie would at least be very solid defensively alongside MJ because that's what many lesser-talented players did.

During the meaningful minutes of games when the defense is locked down in the half court, Pippen's scoring capacity compares to Derrick Jones Jr. - this is fact based on the eye test and clutch or 4th quarter stats.. In contrast to Derrick Jones, aka Pippen, we know that Kyrie outplayed peak Curry to win his first title and then he outplayed 80's Jordan (Ant) to make the Finals without Lebron..

The best team for Jordan would be as follows - Kyrie at PG and standard bangers at the 4 and 5 - Horace and Cartwright work but tons of guys could replace them like PJ Brown or Tyrone Hill - a million guys - Longley & Kukoc were the starters in the 98' Playoffs, so tons of guys can be at the 4 and 5... Then at the 3, a spacer/defender/clutch closer like Cliff Robinson, Horry or even prime Bobby Hansen at the 3 - tons of guys

Interesting. What years would you imagine Kyrie had his highest Time of Possession then?

[3ba11]

Thinking Kyrie would be a better fit with Jordan than Pippen just proves you don't know shit about ball, you narrow everything down to "ppgz" like a casual.


you're the one being narrow-minded with your results-oriented approach of "since MJ won 6 with Pippen, that means it was a great fit and Pippen was great"

that's a results-oriented based on the 6 rings... that's narrow-minded... what if MJ was a turnover machine in the clutch with horrible clutch efficiency like Lebron and therefore lost most of those close playoff or Finals games?... Then you would be saying that Pippen wasn't enough help like you do for Lebron's teammates, who actually outproduce and outshoot Pippen by significant margins..

So you're wrong - there's many ways to skin a cat when you have great talent like an MJ/Kyrie backcourt.. You actually have less flexibility with MJ/Pippen because you still need to find expensive spacers and scorers to fill out the roster, while Kyrie's scoring and spacing allows the simple pursuit of cheap defenders... MJ/Kyrie would be a great defensive backcourt just like MJ/Paxson was, while guys like Clyde/Porter made multiple Finals or Dumars/Isiah - it turns out that point guards and shooting guards are a great fit...

[3ba11]

Interesting. What years would you imagine Kyrie had his highest Time of Possession then?


Kyrie always had to share the time of possession and point guard role with Lebron - they both had a point guard's time of possession and assisted rate, and these 2-point guard lineups gave teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in normal, 1-point guard lineups... Lower assists from teammates yielded low TEAM assists and a brand of ball that can't compete on the championship level (lottery record on the championship level).

Otoh, this inherent suboptimal fit wouldn't exist with Jordan, since Jordan is a highly-assisted player and shooting guard, so he fits great with point guards... that's how basketball works... shooting guards (off-guards) fit great with point guards.

[Charlie Sheen]

Who the hell is putting Luka in the company of Jordan besides OP? Did I miss something?

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah, the guy who's specialty is isolation would be a better fit with a 30 ppg scorer than one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever who's superior at every facet of the game than Kyrie is outside scoring. Yep, you know ball :lol Let me guess, Melo would be a better fit too, all about the ppgz baby.

[ShawkFactory]

Kyrie always had to share the time of possession and point guard role with Lebron - they both had a point guard's time of possession and assisted rate, and these 2-point guard lineups gave teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in normal, 1-point guard lineups... Lower assists from teammates yielded low TEAM assists and a brand of ball that can't compete on the championship level (lottery record on the championship level).

Otoh, this inherent suboptimal fit wouldn't exist with Jordan, since Jordan is a highly-assisted player and shooting guard, so he fits great with point guards... that's how basketball works... shooting guards (off-guards) fit great with point guards.

Nice swerve :lol

[3ba11]

Yeah, the guy who's specialty is isolation would be a better fit with a 30 ppg scorer than one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever who's superior at every facet of the game than Kyrie is outside scoring. Yep, you know ball :lol Let me guess, Melo would be a better fit too, all about the ppgz baby.


You aren't realizing that Luka/Kyrie or Lebron/Kyrie aren't optimal fits because it's 2 primary ball-handlers and low-assisted players teaming up - it's 2 point guards teaming up, which is suboptimal compared to the optimal scenario of a low-assisted player teaming up with a high-assisted player (point guard + big or off-guard)