The 96 Bulls are NOT the greatest team ever for two reasons

[eliteballer]

ow I'm not saying they definitely aren't, but I'm saying it shouldn't be said that they definitely are for two reasons.

1. The 96 Magic. The Magic played the 96 ECF without their 3rd best player. Grant came into the series hobbled, put up 0 points in Game 1 and like 1 rebound and assist, and didn't play for the rest of the series. It sort of mirrors what happened the year prior where the Bulls had no solid rebounder/defender in the post like Grant and Rodman during their titles years. Imagine if Rodman didn't play and a health Grant did? Same dynamic.

The Magic had generally played the Bulls tough all season, they won 60 games with Shaq MISSING 30 games so regular season record wise they were a lot closer to the Bulls than indicated. Heck, Penny scored 38 points in Game 1 on 70% shooting. WOULD the Magic have beaten them with healthy Grant? Maybe, maybe not. Something to think about though.

Hell..give a healthy Magic team and the series a real 3 point line and see what happens..

2. The short 3 point line. The NBA employed the short line from 95-97 seasons, and the Bulls benefited immensely because it turned Jordan and Pippen into near sharpshooters from the arc. Look at Jordan's numbers with the short line and the real line. With the short line I think he was hovering around 40%, with the real line his career percentage is under 30.

It's not just about being able to actually hit them, but how being a threat from distance helps open up your whole game, and your teams whole game.

[NBAGOAT]

the bulls going to say 6 games with the magic doesnt make them not the GOAT team. The magic were a very talented team title team other seasons.

The shortened 3pt line benefited other teams too.

[SouBeachTalents]

Michael Jordan was their best player, of course they’re not the GOAT team.

[JBSptfn]

I have three more:

80's Celtics
80's Lakers
83 Sixers

Those teams (and Mike Greenberg of Mike and Mike in the morning, who covered the 96 Bulls on a regular basis, agrees with me) would wipe the floor with the 72-win Bulls.

Heck, the 1986 Rockets could beat the 96 Bulls. They had trouble with Hakeem when he had less talent around him. Imagine that Bull team having to play the Twin Towers. They would get eaten alive.

[gengiskhan]

Michael Jordan was their best player, of course they’re not the GOAT team.

A BACK LOADED (SG, PG, Point F) team can never ever be GOAT team. impossible because how Bball is Played! its a Center's game and Dominant Big Men around the rim game.

Especially, You add a cripple who cannot shoot or even FT with proper shooting technique, cannot run, cannot hold on to rebounds and who cannot give out long outlet passes as your STARTING CENTER.

I'm talking about Worst Center in 90s NBA, Mr Bill CartRight!.

I've seen all KNICKS BULLS 90s Reg Season games and Playoffs battle. 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996.

That 90s Bulls incl 1996 were all Beatable. Much has to do with just average FRONT COURT. aka. decent PF (Grant, Rodman) and POOR CENTER (Cartright, Longly).

Reason I keep saying, 1980s LAL and 1980s CELTICS would've resoundly beaten 1990s Bulls. Pip regular underperformance is a Key. He was above ave in Big Games mostly. Now you have "steller' MJ with 3 Above Ave performers at PF, SF, C. Just imagine what 1986 Celtics with Bird-Parish-McHale trio would've done to 1996 Bulls in Paint.

Horace never gave Bulls a solid, Good season until 1994. MJ was gone.

Rodman gave you 1 good season in 1996. Thats about it. After that, he checked out. off to vegas or some WWF wrestling performances. Shyte got so bad, one of the 1997 Hawks or other playoffs series, Jordan Pippen lashed out at Rodman publicly in post-game conferences.

Had MJ not gone Tyrant in practices threatening to break Cartright bones, They could've lost 1992 ECSF. It came that close.

1992 and 1993 and 1994 Ewing seriously exposed Bulls front court big time (cartright, horace).

1995 Shaq exposed Bulls poor front court Big Time.

1993 Barkley destroyed 1993 Horace and Cartright in head-2-head finals match up. I mean walked all over them.

1998 Pacers did the same.

[j3lademaster]

A BACK LOADED (SG, PG, Point F) team can never ever be GOAT team. impossible because how Bball is Played! its a Center's game and Dominant Big Men around the rim game.

Especially, You add a cripple who cannot shoot or even FT with proper shooting technique, cannot run, cannot hold on to rebounds and who cannot give out long outlet passes as your STARTING CENTER.

I'm talking about Worst Center in 90s NBA, Mr Bill CartRight!.

I've seen all KNICKS BULLS 90s Reg Season games and Playoffs battle. 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996.

That 90s Bulls incl 1996 were all Beatable. Much has to do with just average FRONT COURT. aka. decent PF (Grant, Rodman) and POOR CENTER (Cartright, Longly).

Reason I keep saying, 1980s LAL and 1980s CELTICS would've resoundly beaten 1990s Bulls. Pip regular underperformance is a Key. He was above ave in Big Games mostly. Now you have "steller' MJ with 3 Above Ave performers at PF, SF, C. Just imagine what 1986 Celtics with Bird-Parish-McHale trio would've done to 1996 Bulls in Paint.

Horace never gave Bulls a solid, Good season until 1994. MJ was gone.

Rodman gave you 1 good season in 1996. Thats about it. After that, he checked out. off to vegas or some WWF wrestling performances. Shyte got so bad, one of the 1997 Hawks or other playoffs series, Jordan Pippen lashed out at Rodman publicly in post-game conferences.

Had MJ not gone Tyrant in practices threatening to break Cartright bones, They could've lost 1992 ECSF. It came that close.

1992 and 1993 and 1994 Ewing seriously exposed Bulls front court big time (cartright, horace).

1995 Shaq exposed Bulls poor front court Big Time.

1993 Barkley destroyed 1993 Horace and Cartright in head-2-head finals match up. I mean walked all over them.

1998 Pacers did the same.Soubeach is obviously trolling….

[Axe]

I have three more:

80's Celtics
80's Lakers
83 Sixers

Those teams (and Mike Greenberg of Mike and Mike in the morning, who covered the 96 Bulls on a regular basis, agrees with me) would wipe the floor with the 72-win Bulls.

Heck, the 1986 Rockets could beat the 96 Bulls. They had trouble with Hakeem when he had less talent around him. Imagine that Bull team having to play the Twin Towers. They would get eaten alive.
Meltdown.

[sdot_thadon]

.
Had MJ not gone Tyrant in practices threatening to break Cartright bones, They could've lost 1992 ECSF. It came that close.


The rest of your post is stupid as hell but here's a correction



Cartwright gets Michael aside, and he says, 'Look, if you do anything like that again, you will never play basketball. Because I’m gonna break both your legs.'"

[gengiskhan]

The rest of your post is stupid as hell but here's a correction

Breaking legs my a55. LOL.

Cartright every night probably prayed on his knees. nothing happened to even single leg of his Meal ticket every night.

Cartright can talk back all he wants. Even he knew he was pathetic. the slowest, weakest link in Bulls line up. Let alone STARTING line-up.

Had MJ been 50% kobe-like or LBJ-like, Bill was instantly traded overnight. No Questions asked.

He lucky, He just got bullied by MJ in practices. He got to collect 3 easiest rings in NBA history.

[Phoenix]

1. Impossible to know for sure obviously, but I doubt a healthy Grant shifts the outcome from a sweep to the Magic coming out on top. Maybe it goes 6 tightly contested affairs in favor of Chicago, who really knows.... Pippen IIRC was also kinda banged up 2nd half of the season so suppose he played the playoffs as healthy as he did the first 3 months of the year?

2. As said above, everyone benefitted from the shorter 3point line. It's not like the Bulls shot it from 22 feet and the rest of the league 24. If anything, the teams and players who were particularly 3point-centric would have had the greatest advantage. Reggie Miller didn't turn into an MVP candidate because he had access to the shorter line. The league went back to the longer distance in 98, Jordan shot like shit from 3, Pippen missed half the season, Rodman was skipping off to Vegas and playing pretend wrestler....Bulls still won 62 and the chip. Which probably says more about the state of the league that year than the 3point line making any material difference to the end result.

[SATAN]

LeBron beat the greatest team ever.

[gengiskhan]

LeBron beat the greatest team ever.

we talking without Balco Juice here!

PEDs dont count

[3ba11]

Michael Jordan was their best player, of course they’re not the GOAT team.


Lebron mostly lost when he got some help, while MJ mostly won.

And MJ's chips have the highest quality possible by winning all chips as scoring and usage champ, while everyone else in history needed teammates to carry them - they needed equal-scoring and using teammates to attract equal defensive attention, so they never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).

Furthermore, Jordan's goat jumpshooting volume allowed maximum capacity for ball movement -the ball still moves and teammates were still involved when he dropped 40 because they were assisting him, whereas Lebron's ball-domination freezes out teammates when he drops 40, so he can't win with scoring like MJ can.

[Carbine]

These threads catch 3ball is a conundrum.

Either he continues his stance of Pippen is just another Larry Nance and Rodman was just another Tristan Thompson or he sticks up for the guys. You can't have it both ways in threads like this because of the rest of the Bulls were just garnering attention via the spotlight and not on their actual games they have absolutely positively no right to be in any goat team debate.

Jordan + average supporting cast isn't overcoming Magic + GOAT supporting cast or Bird + goat tier supporting cast.

Not to mention the '01 Lakers who had two of the three best players in the league guiding them plus very good role players.

List goes on.

No matter who the player is, Jordan or whoever, they can't over compensate for a weak cast in relation to goat tier completion.

[90sgoat]

Doesn't really matter to me if they're the best by some ranking.

I will say that group of MJ, Pippen and Rodman, that's as great a trio as I've ever seen and it helped that they had actual personalities and weren't going off scripts and consultants.

Compare these Celtics to those Bulls. Celtics is everyone the same, everyone shoots the same, drives the same, defends the same.

Bulls 96 had the exact opposite, everyone different, Rodman only rebounds, Pippen defends and passes, MJ scores, Kerr hits the 3, Longley is the unlikely likeable everyman, Kukoc is the smoking euro savant.

You just have to admit that the group of characters brought together for the 96 Bulls was something else. They didn't try to make everyone fit a mold like modern teams, they literally proved that diversity is a strength. What does modern basketball say? That you have to be a boring ass system man.

[90sgoat]

To me, those 90s teams just had a ton more personality.

Shaq, Penny, Nick

Payton, Kemp, Schrempf

Tim, Mullins, Mitch

Reggie, Smits, Marc

Hakeem, Clyde, Horry

You don't have those personalities anymore. You don't have that understanding of letting people be who they are and trying to fit the system to the people. Now everyone needs to min-max because some ****ing nerd crunched some numbers and published a study on some corrupt chinese website.

[j3lademaster]

These threads catch 3ball is a conundrum.

Either he continues his stance of Pippen is just another Larry Nance and Rodman was just another Tristan Thompson or he sticks up for the guys. You can't have it both ways in threads like this because of the rest of the Bulls were just garnering attention via the spotlight and not on their actual games they have absolutely positively no right to be in any goat team debate.

Jordan + average supporting cast isn't overcoming Magic + GOAT supporting cast or Bird + goat tier supporting cast.

Not to mention the '01 Lakers who had two of the three best players in the league guiding them plus very good role players.

List goes on.

No matter who the player is, Jordan or whoever, they can't over compensate for a weak cast in relation to goat tier completion.Allow me to play devil's advocate to this:

MJ at this point of his career is so good he alone makes a mid cast like this into an all time great team. The reason we didn't see this in the 80's against Bird in the playoffs is because Jordan's casts are all-time bad and he was still a baby.

[Carbine]

Jordan in '96 wasn't something we never seen before up to that point.

That devil's advocate just doesn't hold up whatsoever.

If you ranked '96 Jordan against all versions of players on the history of the game, I doubt he makes the top ten. Perhaps not top 15.

[90sgoat]

Jordan in '96 wasn't something we never seen before up to that point.

That devil's advocate just doesn't hold up whatsoever.

If you ranked '96 Jordan against all versions of players on the history of the game, I doubt he makes the top ten. Perhaps not top 15.

You know what, that's an actual argument.

And a true one.

96 MJ was not a top 10 all time player in a season. His team was though. He embodied that 90s era of different styles combining to become a stronger whole.

[3ba11]

Doesn't really matter to me if they're the best by some ranking.

I will say that group of MJ, Pippen and Rodman, that's as great a trio as I've ever seen and it helped that they had actual personalities and weren't going off scripts and consultants.

Compare these Celtics to those Bulls. Celtics is everyone the same, everyone shoots the same, drives the same, defends the same.

Bulls 96 had the exact opposite, everyone different, Rodman only rebounds, Pippen defends and passes, MJ scores, Kerr hits the 3, Longley is the unlikely likeable everyman, Kukoc is the smoking euro savant.

You just have to admit that the group of characters brought together for the 96 Bulls was something else. They didn't try to make everyone fit a mold like modern teams, they literally proved that diversity is a strength. What does modern basketball say? That you have to be a boring ass system man.


Myths from post above debunked:



MJ was the only viable 3-point shooter in 96' Playoffs and far better than Kerr, while also leading the Bulls in the 91-93' Playoffs:




1996 Playoffs

Kerr............... 32.1% on 2.9 attempts
Jordan.......... 40.4% on 3.4 attempts
Pippen........... 28.6% on 5.8 attempts
Kukoc............ 19.1% on 4.5 attempts


1993 Playoffs

Jordan........... 38.9% on 3.8 attempts
BJ................. 51.2% on 2.2 attempts


1991 Playoffs

Jordan............ 38.5% on 1.5 attempts
Pippen............ 23.5% on 1.0 attempts
Paxson'........... 14.3% on 0.8 attempts



So MJ was one of the leading 3-point shooters for his team and often the leader, while also leading the entire league in jumpshooting volume and therefore capacity for ball movement, such as 1997 when he made the most jumpshots that anyone ever made in the history of play-by-play data.

In addition to leading the Bulls and the league in jumpshooting, MJ led the Bulls in assists for 3 title runs (91, 93, 97') and 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen... OF course Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98', while averaging 3/8 in the 97' Playoffs (MJ matched him in RPG) and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs - MJ won with Kukoc as the starter in 98' Playoffs and therefore won with 3 role-playing PF's - Kukoc/Rodman/Horace... so the PF position wasn't a star position like it was for Lebron (AD, Bosh, Love)

[90sgoat]

Myths from post above debunked:



MJ was the only viable 3-point shooter in 96' Playoffs and far better than Kerr, while also leading the Bulls in the 91-93' Playoffs:




1996 Playoffs

Kerr............... 32.1% on 2.9 attempts
Jordan.......... 40.4% on 3.4 attempts
Pippen........... 28.6% on 5.8 attempts
Kukoc............ 19.1% on 4.5 attempts


1993 Playoffs

Jordan........... 38.9% on 3.8 attempts
BJ................. 51.2% on 2.2 attempts


1991 Playoffs

Jordan............ 38.5% on 1.5 attempts
Pippen............ 23.5% on 1.0 attempts
Paxson'........... 14.3% on 0.8 attempts



So MJ was one of the leading 3-point shooters for his team and often the leader, while also leading the entire league in jumpshooting volume and therefore capacity for ball movement, such as 1997 when he made the most jumpshots that anyone ever made in the history of play-by-play data.

In addition to leading the Bulls and the league in jumpshooting, MJ led the Bulls in assists for 3 title runs (91, 93, 97') and 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen... OF course Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98', while averaging 3/8 in the 97' Playoffs (MJ matched him in RPG) and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs - MJ won with Kukoc as the starter in 98' Playoffs and therefore won with 3 role-playing PF's - Kukoc/Rodman/Horace... so the PF position wasn't a star position like it was for Lebron (AD, Bosh, Love)

Don't ****ing copy paste me bro.

Bring some new material.

Venture out of the copy paste.

[3ba11]

Don't ****ing copy paste me bro.

Bring some new material.

Venture out of the copy paste.


New material?

You literally plagiarized the generic propaganda heard on tv about how "rodman did the rebounding and pippen did the passing and kerr did the shooting and mj did the scoring!!!... see kids??.. isn't that fun??!"

Yet you're telling me to post new material.

[gengiskhan]

Jordan in '96 wasn't something we never seen before up to that point.

That devil's advocate just doesn't hold up whatsoever.

If you ranked '96 Jordan against all versions of players on the history of the game, I doubt he makes the top ten. Perhaps not top 15.

I agree

1996 Jordan is definitely not the best version of Jordan.

Fans get carried away with that deadly mid-range game.

gimme any jordan between 1983 (NCAA) and even 1995 (comeback year without conditioning).

1996-1998 MJ is past his prime imo. Youthful energy is just not there. also, too bulked up.

[3ba11]

I agree

1996 Jordan is definitely not the best version of Jordan.

Fans get carried away with that deadly mid-range game.

gimme any jordan between 1983 (NCAA) and even 1995 (comeback year without conditioning).

1996-1998 MJ is past his prime imo. Youthful energy is just not there. also, too bulked up.


95' Jordan was no where near 2nd three-peat Jordan

97' Jordan was the best and smoothest Jordan from 95-98'..

But he was still nothing like 80's Jordan or 1st three-peat Jordan... True

People don't realize how much baseball messed up MJ .. imagine how broke LeBrick's shot would be with 2 years off swinging bats.. Yet MJ returned and became the best jumpshooter in the game, which maximized his team's capacity for ball movement and chemistry

[Da_Realist]

Jordan in '96 wasn't something we never seen before up to that point.

That devil's advocate just doesn't hold up whatsoever.

If you ranked '96 Jordan against all versions of players on the history of the game, I doubt he makes the top ten. Perhaps not top 15.

Not the best version of MJ. Not better than the best versions of the very best players. But I doubt more than a few players have had the amount of success that MJ had in the 95-96 season: 70+ wins, MVP, All-NBA 1st Team, All-Defensive 1st Team, led the league in scoring, Finals MVP. The fact that he could do that when he wasn't at his physical peak is the most impressive part.

[3ba11]

Not the best version of MJ. Not better than the best versions of the very best players. But I doubt more than a few players have had the amount of success that MJ had in the 95-96 season: 70+ wins, MVP, All-NBA 1st Team, All-Defensive 1st Team, led the league in scoring, Finals MVP. The fact that he could do that when he wasn't at his physical peak is the most impressive part.


yeah it's like "96 mj didn't look as good as other versions" but this lesser version still had arguably the best season anyone ever had

[ImKobe]

Pippen was injured in the Playoffs though and really struggled offensively for the most part and they still were 14 - 1 at one point in the POs.

[Axe]

Allow me to play devil's advocate to this:

MJ at this point of his career is so good he alone makes a mid cast like this into an all time great team. The reason we didn't see this in the 80's against Bird in the playoffs is because Jordan's casts are all-time bad and he was still a baby.
Having phil jackson as their mastermind helped too. Him, bach and winter instilled the triangle into the team.

[sdot_thadon]

Don't ****ing copy paste me bro.

Bring some new material.

Venture out of the copy paste.

This is hilarious.

[gengiskhan]

To me, those 90s teams just had a ton more personality.

Shaq, Penny, Nick

Payton, Kemp, Schrempf

Tim, Mullins, Mitch

Reggie, Smits, Marc

Hakeem, Clyde, Horry

You don't have those personalities anymore. You don't have that understanding of letting people be who they are and trying to fit the system to the people. Now everyone needs to min-max because some ****ing nerd crunched some numbers and published a study on some corrupt chinese website.

The Dream 'murdering' 1993 Cartright

Rookie Big Shot Bob 'destroying' Bulls weak Front Court.

Keep an eye on Cartright, the worst center in NBA history IMO. fumbling, bumbling getting humiliated by the Best Defender in NBA History.

This is how comfortably beatable 90s Bulls, the defending back-2-back Champions were.

No GOAT meant No Chip for them. literally. That 90s Bulls Front Court was merely average thanks to Cartright.

Also, this 1993 2 games Bulls-Rockets series is the indication why 90s Bulls stand 'zero' chance of beating 1994 and 1995 rockets in NBA Finals. none!

MJ or no MJ in the line up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojEeRFrP4zs

[Carbine]

Cartwright was excellent in the first Bulls title for what his role was. You're obviously agenda driven saying things like he's the worst center in NBA history.

[gengiskhan]

Cartwright was excellent in the first Bulls title for what his role was. You're obviously agenda driven saying things like he's the worst center in NBA history.

show me a clip where 7'1" Cartright had one proper offensive putback dunk on a missed shot from 1989 - 1993. Just one!.

Since, he is so excellent in your eyes. and Bulls would've definitely 8-peated had MJ not retired in 1994 and 1995. beat rockets twice in finals. :roll:

cripple-like shooting form for FG and FT both. knocked knees. always falling to the ground if he jumps. static, glued feet. no reaction on defense.

probably stunted young Horace's growth being his front court compadre.

do you want me to go on...

[3ba11]

Cartwright was excellent in the first Bulls title for what his role was. You're obviously agenda driven saying things like he's the worst center in NBA history.


People are hypocritical - they would knock 2010 Shaq and say that he wasn't enough help, when he was far better than Cartwright ever was for the Bulls... And the 09' Cavs had 33-year old Ben Wallace, but somehow 35-year old Rodman is considered better.. It's sheer bias - the Bulls' role players are all great and superb because MJ was good enough to drag them to titles, while Lebron's role players are bums because he isn't good enough to drag them to titles... People are just results-oriented when it comes to role players and their opinion is influenced by the winning spotlight (whether the role player was dragged to titles or not)

[Carbine]

2010 Shaq was in no way better than Cartwright at playing winning basketball. First of all Cartwright's defense in all respects was MUCH better. Shaq at this point in his career was a defensive liability.

I can say Shaq was better at one thing - iso post up scoring. Which isn't really as important when you're a "role player" which Shaq was. Less opportunities.

[Carbine]

Ben Wallace was completely washed at that point too. It's just flat out agenda driven which is no surprise considering who you are.

His rebounding was way down, his scoring was non existent besides dump offs and he was a dreadful playmaker.

Rodman was the league's leading rebounder by a wide margin. Every single season of his Bulls career. He was a smart passer. He was All NBa Defense in 1996 and got FMVP votes (first time an MJ teammate got the vote over him)

Put some damn respect on his name and stop comparing him to completely washed Ben Wallace.

[gengiskhan]

People are hypocritical - they would knock 2010 Shaq and say that he wasn't enough help, when he was far better than Cartwright ever was for the Bulls... And the 09' Cavs had 33-year old Ben Wallace, but somehow 35-year old Rodman is considered better.. It's sheer bias - the Bulls' role players are all great and superb because MJ was good enough to drag them to titles, while Lebron's role players are bums because he isn't good enough to drag them to titles... People are just results-oriented when it comes to role players and their opinion is influenced by the winning spotlight (whether the role player was dragged to titles or not)

This

MJ literally dragged garbage Cartwright and Longley to titles. Particularly Cartwright, He was so abnormal. movement wise, quickness wise, shooting form wise. I cannot imagine MJ's patient level with a center like that.

I vividly remember 1992 ECSF Game 1 and Game 2 at Chicago. Ewing and Oakley literally murdered Bill. I mean, his shot blocked every time. cannot hold on to rebound. Cartwright was Bulls biggest liability. If he did not occupied so much paint area with wide body and elbows, there is nothing this 'shattered knees" guy had to offer. I mean literally a 4-6 pts performer for a "starting" center.

You give Cartwright like player to LBJ or Kobe, they will literally run him out of town. MJ carried this pathetic burden for 3 rings. No wonder, every now and then, a frustrated MJ said, "dont pass any ball in his direction." Probably, destroyed the flow of Bulls fast offense.

[gengiskhan]

People are hypocritical - they would knock 2010 Shaq and say that he wasn't enough help, when he was far better than Cartwright ever was for the Bulls... And the 09' Cavs had 33-year old Ben Wallace, but somehow 35-year old Rodman is considered better.. It's sheer bias - the Bulls' role players are all great and superb because MJ was good enough to drag them to titles, while Lebron's role players are bums because he isn't good enough to drag them to titles... People are just results-oriented when it comes to role players and their opinion is influenced by the winning spotlight (whether the role player was dragged to titles or not)

Never seen more ungrateful, thankless, Bastard!

"Bulls would've won even without MJ because we were all talented"

"we were the best starting 5" and this washout scored 4-6 pts with tons of 0 blocks game at 7'1".

notice how he is deliberately underplaying Pistons duel. Only 2 yrs. MJ was literally getting murdered under "jordan rules". He is just like its a learning process for 2 years. deliberately, discounting the 1988 year before him. Brutal beating MJ was taking physically.

All these Jordanaires minions are now into limelight into relevancy because of MJ got them all rings. The best thing ever happened to NYK franchise is this backup to Ewing bench garbage traded for starter Oakley.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvDeU5Tp0b4

[gengiskhan]

Cartwright was excellent in the first Bulls title for what his role was. You're obviously agenda driven saying things like he's the worst center in NBA history.

So, you will draft 1991 version of Bill Cartwright in today's NBA in place of Shaq, Dwight, Jokic ang Giannis and have him shoot 3-pointers with his shooting form. :lol

Not everything is agenda driven.

He was pathetic and worst center in NBA in 90s era for a "starter" easily. Its not just his pathetic scoring. He has 0 blocks games and tons of them for 7'1" and the guy's "shattered knees" made sure he cannot box out down low on defense and during rebounding.

[Axe]

Cartwright was excellent in the first Bulls title for what his role was. You're obviously agenda driven saying things like he's the worst center in NBA history.
This. He was already nearing 35 by the time the bulls won their very first title. Not sure why these kids expect him to be someone more prominent bt.

[RogueBorg]

Cartwright was excellent in the first Bulls title for what his role was. You're obviously agenda driven saying things like he's the worst center in NBA history.

1992-1993 Cartwright was absolute trash. 41% shooting giving you .2 bpg...Cartwright, at least this season, was the worst starting center in NBA history.

[Elosha]

1. Impossible to know for sure obviously, but I doubt a healthy Grant shifts the outcome from a sweep to the Magic coming out on top. Maybe it goes 6 tightly contested affairs in favor of Chicago, who really knows.... Pippen IIRC was also kinda banged up 2nd half of the season so suppose he played the playoffs as healthy as he did the first 3 months of the year?

2. As said above, everyone benefitted from the shorter 3point line. It's not like the Bulls shot it from 22 feet and the rest of the league 24. If anything, the teams and players who were particularly 3point-centric would have had the greatest advantage. Reggie Miller didn't turn into an MVP candidate because he had access to the shorter line. The league went back to the longer distance in 98, Jordan shot like shit from 3, Pippen missed half the season, Rodman was skipping off to Vegas and playing pretend wrestler....Bulls still won 62 and the chip. Which probably says more about the state of the league that year than the 3point line making any material difference to the end result.

It should be noted that Horace Grant got hurt late the game during game 1, but before that was having an absolutely miserable game and was completely ineffective while the Bulls won a blowout. So based on the admittedly small size sample, he was unlikely to be a game changer in 96. Yes, he had a great series in 95 playoffs against the Bulls and a still somewhat rusty Michael Jordan, but that was his best playoff series of his life. The chances of him having anywhere near the amount of success as he did in 95 is remote. I think even if Grant played, the Bulls would have either still swept or won in 5. They thoroughly outclassed the Magic.

[FilmyCogTurner]

96 Bulls for sure the GOAT. Not only the record and championship but the personalities involved along with the fandom/circus it created around the world - they were the Beatles of NBA basketball.

[sdot_thadon]

Guess we've moved on to Cartwright slander now. I'm pretty sure he was a no.3 lotto pick and made the allstar game his rookie season. Also more than certain he wasn't brought to Chicago to score as he took the least field goals of his career as a starter there. Almost sounds Ike people can't understand how roles affect numbers lol. He was never a defensive savant but his elbows and physicality were feared. That's why he was there, take up space, do dirty work and hit the occasional mid range jumper which he wasn't too bad at for a big. Bulls don't win without him either.

[RRR3]

Guess we've moved on to Cartwright slander now. I'm pretty sure he was a no.3 lotto pick and made the allstar game his rookie season. Also more than certain he wasn't brought to Chicago to score as he took the least field goals of his career as a starter there. Almost sounds Ike people can't understand how roles affect numbers lol. He was never a defensive savant but his elbows and physicality were feared. That's why he was there, take up space, do dirty work and hit the occasional mid range jumper which he wasn't too bad at for a big. Bulls don't win without him either.
Cartwright was a 17.5 PPG on 61.7 TS% guy in 87, and then a 11.1 PPG on 63.7 TS% (19.6 per 36) the next year in 88. He only moved to the bench so Ewing could play center full time but as you can see he was still producing. But the next year despite more minutes MJ ball reduced him to a 14.9 per 36 guy on 53.5 TS% (12.4 PPG overall). Yikes. He was only 31 too, MJ just couldn't figure out how to use a skilled low post guy.

[sdot_thadon]

Cartwright was a 17.5 PPG on 61.7 TS% guy in 87, and then a 11.1 PPG on 63.7 TS% (19.6 per 36) the next year in 88. He only moved to the bench so Ewing could play center full time but as you can see he was still producing. But the next year despite more minutes MJ ball reduced him to a 14.9 per 36 guy on 53.5 TS% (12.4 PPG overall). Yikes. He was only 31 too, MJ just couldn't figure out how to use a skilled low post guy.

And single digit fg attempts as a big, in the era of the bigs lol. Not saying he was some workd beater or anything but he was more than serviceable in his role. There's a ton of more useless players in NBA history you got snipe before you ever put a scope on elbows cartwright.

[gengiskhan]

Cartwright was a 17.5 PPG on 61.7 TS% guy in 87, and then a 11.1 PPG on 63.7 TS% (19.6 per 36) the next year in 88. He only moved to the bench so Ewing could play center full time but as you can see he was still producing. But the next year despite more minutes MJ ball reduced him to a 14.9 per 36 guy on 53.5 TS% (12.4 PPG overall). Yikes. He was only 31 too, MJ just couldn't figure out how to use a skilled low post guy.

fk is this garbage!

Krause literally dumped knocked knees, polio stricken shooting form, dead flat feet, broken knees 7'1" dead weight in MJs hands by gifting NYK Oakley.

Bulls' Cartwright could barely stay on two feet in paint. apparantly, thats all Bulls wanted. Height and width who can occupy paint all day long so Lambeers and Rodman's life can be made miserable in paint.

besides this, guy cannot jump. cannot move. cannot shoot properly, cannot rebound and most importantly, cannot block shot. pathetic dumpster of a player and easily the worst starting center in NBA in entire 90s decade.

[3ba11]

Cartwright was a 17.5 PPG on 61.7 TS% guy in 87, and then a 11.1 PPG on 63.7 TS% (19.6 per 36) the next year in 88. He only moved to the bench so Ewing could play center full time but as you can see he was still producing. But the next year despite more minutes MJ ball reduced him to a 14.9 per 36 guy on 53.5 TS% (12.4 PPG overall). Yikes. He was only 31 too, MJ just couldn't figure out how to use a skilled low post guy.


So wait... You're knocking MJ for increasing a player's ppg - that's your big argument to counter Lebron reducing dozens of guys by 5-10 ppg?

[sdot_thadon]

So wait... You're knocking MJ for increasing a player's ppg - that's your big argument to counter Lebron reducing dozens of guys by 5-10 ppg?
1 point more than he averaged off the bench in significantly less minutes the year before as Ewings backup. Then EVERY season after with Mj, averaged less ppg as a starter than he did as Ewings backup. Some of it was aging out, most of it was not getting shots a featured player on offense gets. You can't be upset a 20 pppg scorer can't score 20 on 8 shots lol. Even if a player is efficient and shoots 50% from the field how much can that player produce max on 8 shots? Grow up.

[Axe]

96 Bulls for sure the GOAT. Not only the record and championship but the personalities involved along with the fandom/circus it created around the world - they were the Beatles of NBA basketball.
They are described very well in the eleven rings book (by phil jackson ofc). Trolls here wouldn't give a huge damn about it but true basketball or team fans (esp. bulls & lakers ones) would probably enjoy reading the said book.

[ILLsmak]

ow I'm not saying they definitely aren't, but I'm saying it shouldn't be said that they definitely are for two reasons.

1. The 96 Magic. The Magic played the 96 ECF without their 3rd best player. Grant came into the series hobbled, put up 0 points in Game 1 and like 1 rebound and assist, and didn't play for the rest of the series. It sort of mirrors what happened the year prior where the Bulls had no solid rebounder/defender in the post like Grant and Rodman during their titles years. Imagine if Rodman didn't play and a health Grant did? Same dynamic.

The Magic had generally played the Bulls tough all season, they won 60 games with Shaq MISSING 30 games so regular season record wise they were a lot closer to the Bulls than indicated. Heck, Penny scored 38 points in Game 1 on 70% shooting. WOULD the Magic have beaten them with healthy Grant? Maybe, maybe not. Something to think about though.

Hell..give a healthy Magic team and the series a real 3 point line and see what happens..

2. The short 3 point line. The NBA employed the short line from 95-97 seasons, and the Bulls benefited immensely because it turned Jordan and Pippen into near sharpshooters from the arc. Look at Jordan's numbers with the short line and the real line. With the short line I think he was hovering around 40%, with the real line his career percentage is under 30.

It's not just about being able to actually hit them, but how being a threat from distance helps open up your whole game, and your teams whole game.

You may be right, but that's not why. The magic got trashed. I was a big Shaq fan and that series made me wanna cry haha. I was hoping since the year before that they would have a chance, but the Bulls trashed everyone in the NBA for all 3 years. That year they were great.

I would point to their 'mediocre' 3 point shooting (you kinda did,) but moreso their lack of interior length and scoring inside. Though Big Luc is stronger than he gets credit for being.

KD GSW would sauce them. KD GSW is probably the best team of all time. The only teams that could beat them would have a big man that is so ridiculous that it would destroy their morale. Without that, they win everything in every era.

-Smak