Lebron won as underdog or without homecourt 4 times (5 for MJ)

[3ba11]

2007 Pistons (#6 SRS)
2015 Hawks (#4 SRS)
2016 Warriors (#1 SRS)
2018 Celtics (#7 SRS)

1989 Cavs (#1 SRS)
1989 Knicks (#7 SRS)
1993 Knicks (#3 SRS)
1993 Suns (#3 SRS)
1998 Jazz (#2 SRS)


2009 Lebron....... lost to 1-star team with an all-star
1989 Jordan....... beat 3-all-star team with no all-stars

Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick, so he never carried weak help over top teams and always needed all-time scoring help

[Axe]

Phil jackson > mike brown

[gengiskhan]

Phil jackson > mike brown

What did phil won b4 MJ? nothing.

MJ made 'phil', a junior garbage coach, into Phil Jackson that even Shaq benefited from.

MJ made Phil into all time winning head coach

MJ made Pippen into top 50 GOATs ahead of Dominique Wilkins. Pippen literally took Niques guaranteed spot in Top 50 in 1997.

These 2 are MJs beatches.

[Carbine]

Phil couldn't win anything "before MJ" because he was never a head coach before that lol

My god the agendas around here. I'll tell you what Phil did after MJ, he three peated again.... And then went back to back to close out his career. He did pretty well for himself.

[tpols]

Phil couldn't win anything "before MJ" because he was never a head coach before that lol

My god the agendas around here. I'll tell you what Phil did after MJ, he three peated again.... And then went back to back to close out his career. He did pretty well for himself.

Yea he had prime Shaq and Kobe lol...

Me or you could've "coached" LA to a ring in 2001.

[gengiskhan]

Phil couldn't win anything "before MJ" because he was never a head coach before that lol

My god the agendas around here. I'll tell you what Phil did after MJ, he three peated again.... And then went back to back to close out his career. He did pretty well for himself.

Then why did Phil FAIL to win with MJ and with 'triangle offense' in 1990.

Phil was not a new hire btw. Phil was assistant to Head Coach Collins past 2 seasons I believe.

Why Phil FAILED with his genius in 1990 Game 7 against Pistons when MJ needed all the help he want.

Why could not he do is Zen woodoo on rest of the Jordanaires as Head Coach in 1990.

Phil was nothing without MJ. No wonder, MJ did not wanted to let go his beatch in 1998.

MJ made Phil. MJ made Pippen. MJ made Cows into Bulls. MJ made that Dynasty.

Take MJ out of Chicago. 1992- 1999 NYK were primed to become NBA Dynasty. 3 championships for NYK comfortably.

[Carbine]

It took time for MJ to buy into the new system. For as much knowledge about the olden days that you want to provide us, you don't know much about the details of it.

Phil took the ball out of MJs hands. He wasn't used to that, he was playing on the ball so much more prior. MJ said it himself, don't take my word for it. "I didn't want Doug to go. I liked having the ball in my hands all the time, and now Phil wanted to come in and take it away from me?"

Anyways, to your last point. I agree with you. Wow it's shocking to say that.

But your point is not a very well thought out one. It's actually pretty elementary - if you take ANY clear #1 player off any title winning team, they won't win anything.

We saw it with Murray, and he was the #2 for god sakes. Jokic was as good as ever but they couldn't do anything. Now imagine taking Jokic away instead of Murray, it's even worse.

Take Duncan off the Spurs... No titles.

Take Shaq off the Lakers in 00 they win nothing.

"Without MJ" doesn't invalidate anyone on the Bulls. Just like it didn't invalidate Jokic without Murray. It's a team sport, they all need each other at the end of the day.

[SouBeachTalents]

It took time for MJ to buy into the new system. For as much knowledge about the olden days that you want to provide us, you don't know much about the details of it.

Phil took the ball out of MJs hands. He wasn't used to that, he was playing on the ball so much more prior. MJ said it himself, don't take my word for it. "I didn't want Doug to go. I liked having the ball in my hands all the time, and now Phil wanted to come in and take it away from me?"

Anyways, to your last point. I agree with you. Wow it's shocking to say that.

But your point is not a very well thought out one. It's actually pretty elementary - if you take ANY clear #1 player off any title winning team, they won't win anything.

We saw it with Murray, and he was the #2 for god sakes. Jokic was as good as ever but they couldn't do anything. Now imagine taking Jokic away instead of Murray, it's even worse.

Take Duncan off the Spurs... No titles.

Take Shaq off the Lakers in 00 they win nothing.

"Without MJ" doesn't invalidate anyone on the Bulls. Just like it didn't invalidate Jokic without Murray. It's a team sport, they all need each other at the end of the day.
What's crazy is the Bulls with Jordan leaving at his peak still won 55 games, won at a 60 win pace when Pippen played, and were a controversial call away from beating their biggest rival and potentially making the Finals.

[gengiskhan]

MJs Extremely Competitive East Conference.

Bad Boys Pistons (champs + jordan rules + extremely dirty and physical)

up and coming NYK (Ewing + Mark J + Oakley)

perfect CAVS

up and coming HAWKS (Nique + Willis + Doc)

Celtics (1986 Greatest team ever, Bird, McHale, Chief, DJ, Ainge, Walton)



LBJs Weakest of the Weak East Conference

Aging, old Celtics (trio could barely play together)

Bulls (career ending injury)

thats about it.

[gengiskhan]

What's crazy is the Bulls with Jordan leaving at his peak still won 55 games, won at a 60 win pace when Pippen played, and were a controversial call away from beating their biggest rival and potentially making the Finals.

and Reggie and Pacers would have just folded to 1994 Bulls not seeing MJ in the line up. :lol

Its amazing how you MJ haters mind work.

1994 Bulls just jump straight from ECSF to NBA Finals skipping 1994 Pacers and ECF where Reggie literally was destroying 1994 NYK in ECF. :oldlol:

Imagine what 1994 Reggie would've done to 1994 Pippen in ECF when he knows "black jesus" is missing from the line up.

[Hey Yo]

What's crazy is the Bulls with Jordan leaving at his peak still won 55 games, won at a 60 win pace when Pippen played, and were a controversial call away from beating their biggest rival and potentially making the Finals.

While the Cavs 2x and Miami once didn't even make the playoffs the year after LeBron moved on.

[1987_Lakers]

MJ's Weak Finals Opponents

Magic with HIV and injured Worthy

Low IQ Blazers team

Sonics team that lost in the 1st round the prior 2 years

Old Jazz team with 34/35 year old Stockton and Greg Ostertag as a starter


LeBron's extremely competitive Finals opponents

Durant/Westbrook/Harden who would all be MVPs

Dynasty Spurs who were also a GOAT ball-movement team

Another dynasty team. 73-9.

[gengiskhan]

What's crazy is the Bulls with Jordan leaving at his peak still won 55 games, won at a 60 win pace when Pippen played, and were a controversial call away from beating their biggest rival and potentially making the Finals.

whats crazy is that 1992 Jordan and 1992 Pippen actually went to 1992 Olympics after playing Back-2-Back 100 games seasons in 1991 and 1992 as repeat champs.

thats crazy. No LOAD MANAGEMENT. No "I need summer off cuz of my deep finals runs"

1993 Pippen underperformed in reg season. How did 1993 compensated for that........

1993 Jordan gave his best offensively and defensively. top 3 MVP votes again. DPOY runner up. took more scoring load (compared to 1992 and 1991 and perimeter defensive load compared to 1992 and 1991).

1993 Bulls should've been at 60-61 win. instead of 57. They were that great with just 1993 jordan alone. 1993 Pippen eff'ed it up in Reg Season to non-stop Bball between 1992 and 1993 season without breaks. But 1993 Pip did made up for it in 1993 ECF finals.

1994 Bulls. No expectations. No pressures at all. 1994 Pip got 2 more All-stars in bulls line up. Also, 1994 Bulls added Kukoc, a good solid long close out wingman. All this resulted in 55 games win. Not because Pippen was MVP or even MVP runner-up!.

[gengiskhan]

LeBron's extremely competitive Finals opponents

JJ Barea should have been FMVP

Dynasty Spurs very young Duncan led GOAT ball-movement team

Another "Lebron turned them into" dynasty team.

corrected.

[Carbine]

The 1994 Bulls added two new all stars?

I don't think that means what you think it means. Horace and BJ made it, they were also on the team with MJ. They didn't "add" two more all stars. They just had their role increased a bit and the stats followed.

[gengiskhan]

The 1994 Bulls added two new all stars?

I don't think that means what you think it means. Horace and BJ made it, they were also on the team with MJ. They didn't "add" two more all stars. They just had their role increased a bit and the stats followed.

Nope!

It could also mean 26 YO BJ actually finally 'peaked' at 15 ppg. You dont just become all star 'starter' overnight over 1994 Starks and not all star 'reserve'

this is what having 'zero' expectations, 'zero' pressure for the upcoming season can do to even bench player like BJ.

1994 Horace also enters 'prime' and finally an allstar 'reserve.' Knowing MJ is gone. He is looking for that 1995 upcoming contract. That "allstar" money.

How can you not say 1994 Pippen actually performed his best when there is Zero pressure, Zero expectations from 1994 season. also, any short coming of 1994 Bulls now would've been dumped on newly acquired rookie Kukoc for such heafty money.

all this helped out.

[sdot_thadon]

Nope!

It could also mean 26 YO BJ actually finally 'peaked' at 15 ppg. You dont just become all star 'starter' overnight over 1994 Starks and not all star 'reserve'

this is what having 'zero' expectations, 'zero' pressure for the upcoming season can do to even bench player like BJ.

1994 Horace also enters 'prime' and finally an allstar 'reserve.' Knowing MJ is gone. He is looking for that 1995 upcoming contract. That "allstar" money.

How can you not say 1994 Pippen actually performed his best when there is Zero pressure, Zero expectations from 1994 season. also, any short coming of 1994 Bulls now would've been dumped on newly acquired rookie Kukoc for such heafty money.

all this helped out.

Hindsight is great for most of us, in your case it makes you even stupider. There was plenty of pressure on Scottie to prove and establish himself as a star with or without Mj. It was a chance for the rest of the team to prove they weren't the "jordanaires" they were called sometimes in the media. It was a chance for Horace not only to prove he was worthy of more money coming to but a chance to prove his complaints over his role were warranted. A chance for Kukoc to prove the gm right for being high on him and to earn Pippens respect. A chance for Phil to prove he was a great coach after all and not just a beneficiary of having an all time great star. There's no way you watched ball in the 90s, if you did you must have been a toddler.

[gengiskhan]

Hindsight is great for most of us, in your case it makes you even stupider. There was plenty of pressure on Scottie to prove and establish himself as a star with or without Mj. It was a chance for the rest of the team to prove they weren't the "jordanaires" they were called sometimes in the media. It was a chance for Horace not only to prove he was worthy of more money coming to but a chance to prove his complaints over his role were warranted. A chance for Kukoc to prove the gm right for being high on him and to earn Pippens respect. A chance for Phil to prove he was a great coach after all and not just a beneficiary of having an all time great star. There's no way you watched ball in the 90s, if you did you must have been a toddler.

stfu fool!

Once MJ retired. All the pressure was on Ewing, Miller, Hakeem, D'Rob and Shaq to win it all. Because they were either in MVP race, DPOY race or Clutch performers or dominant force.

1994 Pippen had 0 pressure. none. 1994 Bulls had 0 expectations. non. 1994 Pippen was handed a perfect chemistry team with him being well rested all summer. 3-peat and 3-peat all behind them. All pressure shifted to 1993 NYK. 60 wins with HCA. went up 2-0 against 1993 Bulls in ECF. only to be backdoor swept. 1994 Pippen, Grant, BJ all played with 'house' money. Its a fact. Hakeem being the best defensive player in NBA for a while. Also, MJs same Draft class. He had to win now or never. Same with D'Rob. He was narrowly missing out on MVPs and DPOYs, Both Rockets and Spurs were well oiled teams. Dont forget Shaq. Although young. After 1993 rookie dominance, Shaq as Penny was drafted in 1994 looked like a perfect reinforcement to Shaq's power and dominance. That Magic team with Nick, Dennis Scott were well settled unlike Zo and Larry's hornets. But Immediate pressure was on Ewing, Reggie, Hakeem, D'Rob. 1994 Pippen, Grant, BJ really enjoyed no pressure season. With Kukoc making 3 buzzer beaters to win games. 1994 Bulls can do no wrong.

[3ba11]

Phil couldn't win anything "before MJ" because he was never a head coach before that lol





So Phil was a 1st time nobody coach just like Mike Brown in 06'???

So MJ wasn't gifted a goat coach and instead turned a 1st time nobody coach into a household name?

My god the agendas around here.

[1987_Lakers]

Why couldn't MJ win with Doug Collins?

[Axe]

Phil couldn't win anything "before MJ" because he was never a head coach before that lol

My god the agendas around here. I'll tell you what Phil did after MJ, he three peated again.... And then went back to back to close out his career. He did pretty well for himself.
:applause:

[3ba11]

Why couldn't MJ win with Doug Collins?


The same reason Phil lost in 1990 - Pippen missed the closeout game

Most people don't realize that Pippen's first migraine was 1989 Game 6 - Collins got fired for it, while Phil got a pass

[3ba11]

:applause:


Carbine just informed us that Phil was a 1st time nobody coach in 1990 just like Mike Brown in 2006

Accordingly, mj did NOT get the goat coach in 1990 and was forced to win with a 1st time, nobody coach in 91'

[1987_Lakers]

The same reason Phil lost in 1990 - Pippen missed the closeout game

Most people don't realize that Pippen's first migraine was 1989 Game 6 - Collins got fired for it, while Phil got a pass

Bulls went from 47 wins in '89 to 55 wins in Jackson's first season.

Offense went from 12th to 5th. I would credit alot of that to the triangle. The ball was out of MJ's hands alot more and Pippen flourished because of it, became more of a playmaker.

[3ba11]

While the Cavs 2x and Miami once didn't even make the playoffs the year after LeBron moved on.


The 2011 Cavs lost their entire starting 5 including Varejao, Mo Williams, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte- this is 52 ppg

The 2019 Cavs lost their #1 option (Love), while Kyrie had already left due to friction with LeBallDominate

TLDR: team-hoppers GUT teams

[1987_Lakers]

The 2011 Cavs lost their entire starting 5 including Varejao, Mo Williams, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte- this is 52 ppg

The 2019 Cavs lost their #1 option (Love), while Kyrie had already left due to friction with LeBallDominate

TLDR: team-hoppers GUT teams

Cavs were 8-28 with Mo Williams in 2011

[Hey Yo]

The same reason Phil lost in 1990 - Pippen missed the closeout game

Most people don't realize that Pippen's first migraine was 1989 Game 6 - Collins got fired for it, while Phil got a pass

Collins got fired due to Jordan going into game 5 with a planned agenda to not shoot the ball. It was the biggest game of his career and caught feelings from some calling him selfish.

[Duderonomy]

Jordan also never lost 3 games in a row from 1990-98
How many times has Bron been swept or lost in 5 games now?

[3ba11]

Bulls went from 47 wins in '89 to 55 wins in Jackson's first season.

Offense went from 12th to 5th. I would credit alot of that to the triangle. The ball was out of MJ's hands alot more and Pippen flourished because of it, became more of a playmaker.


Phil got lucky to arrive at the same time that MJ got all-star help - that's the only reason anyone knows about Phil - he arrived at the same time that the GOAT got all-star help... The triangle actually reduced everyone's playmaking because there's no point guard role, so you're wrong about Pippen - Pippen's progression in 1990 was just natural progression because he was a 3rd year player, but he was always a 5-assist guy as he showed in Houston and Portland.

Btw, can you tell me what it's like to latch on to something the mainstream says and run with it even though it's false?.. Why do people say that Phil took the ball out of MJ's hands when MJ averaged 36/7/8 for the 91-93' Finals - he dropped 41 in 93' and 11 apg in 91' - where's the "taking the ball out of Jordan's hands"??... He led the Bulls in assists for the 91' and 93' Playoffs while carrying the GOAT scoring burden and being #2 for DPOY (93').

[3ba11]

The 2005 Cavs were lottery until Mike Brown arrived to improve them in 2006 more than Phil improved the Bulls in 1990 (bulls were already on the cusp of a title in 89').

[1987_Lakers]

Phil's offense allowed Pippen to become an all-star. He realized Pippen wasn't being utilized as a playmaker enough. Similar to how Kerr's offense allowed Curry & Klay to flourish when he first took over.

Phil double downed during the '90 off season and badly wanted to sign Danny Ainge because he knew he was one of the few players who wouldn't pass to MJ if Jordan was demanding the ball.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/phil-jackson-explains-how-moving-scottie-pippen-on-a-guard-position-helped-the-chicago-bulls

The Zen Master realized that the triangle offense the Bulls were running, in some way, enhanced the Pippen's offensive skill set. Pippen was an exceptional floor general who could make the right play by scoring the basket or putting his teammates in the right positions to score.

[3ba11]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/phil-jackson-explains-how-moving-scottie-pippen-on-a-guard-position-helped-the-chicago-bulls

The Zen Master realized that the triangle offense the Bulls were running, in some way, enhanced the Pippen's offensive skill set. Pippen was an exceptional floor general who could make the right play by scoring the basket or putting his teammates in the right positions to score.


I agree that the triangle coddles weak-iso players like Pippen and it's one of the reasons that he's so vastly overrated - history shows that he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle

Pippen grew up in the triangle so he learned how to average 20 "system" points but his inability to have a 30-point game in the playoffs and low peak capability (just a dunker) meant that he wasn't on scouting reports according to Shaq, which forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) in every single series..

If the opponent doesn't have to close out on you or double you, then you generally won't be on scouting reports.. Pippen averaged 19 on 42% for his Finals career and if AD had these numbers, it wouldn't matter how good his defense was - he would traded that offseason 100% guaranteed....... period.

If AD doesn't dominate, he's considered "not enough help" and everyone will say that Lebron "needs more help", while Pippen's garbage stats are misperceived as "sufficient" because MJ could drag that crap to titles - he could defeat the max defensive attention (carry scoring load) that pippen requires - no one else could win with a lane-clogger/bricklayer and low producer like Pippen.. And don't tell me Ewing would win with Pippen because Ewing's sidekick outplayed Pippen in 3 series and he lost all 3 (89' ECSF, 92' ECSF, 96' ECSF) - look it up.. Pippen was trash.

[3ba11]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/phil-jackson-explains-how-moving-scottie-pippen-on-a-guard-position-helped-the-chicago-bulls

The Zen Master realized that the triangle offense the Bulls were running, in some way, enhanced the Pippen's offensive skill set. Pippen was an exceptional floor general who could make the right play by scoring the basket or putting his teammates in the right positions to score.


Btw, Phil and Jordan were forced to make many political statements about Pippen and make him feel part of the team

But the stats and performance tells the story and overrides political comments by teammates.. Specifically, most notable 1st options enjoyed "exceptional" floor generals that averaged 10 assists like Payton, Stockton, Hardaway or KJ, while MJ had to tolerate Pippen's trash 5 assists.

Again, posting political comments from a book is a poor argument - we don't need political quotes to solve the case - we can just look at the performance - Pippen wasn't an elite floor general in the 90's.. Among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch and peak-scoring capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq)

[1987_Lakers]

Btw, Phil and Jordan were forced to make many political statements about Pippen and make him feel part of the team

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/89yWdi54_7U

How much does this bother you?

And didn't Chuck Daly drool over Pippen when he coached the dream team? Basically called him the 2nd best player on the team.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/89yWdi54_7U

How much does this bother you?

And didn't Chuck Daly drool over Pippen when he coached the dream team? Basically called him the 2nd best player on the team.


Between the real comments by ex-players or coaches that trash Pippen and his actual trash performance that other sidekicks could never get away with - this is a stronger and definitive versus your political comments of various coaches for various reasons to sell books or simply not alienate Pippen - what are Chuck and Phil supposed to say?.. that pippen wasn't really an offensive option and teams sagged off him to clog the lanes for Michael?.... c'mon

[1987_Lakers]

Between the real comments by ex-players or coaches that trash Pippen and his actual trash performance that other sidekicks could never get away with - this is a stronger argument and definitive versus your political comments that you found of various coaches making comments for various reasons to sell books or simply not alienate Pippen - what are Chuck and Phil supposed to say?.. that pippen wasn't really an offensive option and teams sagged off him?.. c'mon


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM

It was Pippen, not MJ closing out the Knicks in '93

[Axe]

Carbine just informed us that Phil was a 1st time nobody coach in 1990 just like Mike Brown in 2006

Accordingly, mj did NOT get the goat coach in 1990 and was forced to win with a 1st time, nobody coach in 91'
Meltdown. I'll take the one who's won more than five rings than zero as head coach.

[Carbine]

Taking the ball out of his hands doesn't mean his shots went down, it means his hold time/dribbling time went down.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM

It was Pippen, not MJ closing out the Knicks in '93


Game 3 of the 93' ECF was just like Game 4 of the 24' WCF....... or Game 4 of the 24' Finals

the Mavs and the Celtics mailed in those games and prepared for the next game.

that's what the Knicks did in Game 3 and everyone that watched the game knew this at the time - the game was only contested in the 1st quarter where MJ dominated (8 points and 6 assists) and Pippen was MIA (6 and 0)..

for these reasons (everyone knew the knicks were mailing it in and MJ dominated the only contested part of the game), the game was never reported as a "pippen save" and intro to Game 4 showed said "the team rallied around MJ"...

Zero games were ever reported as a "pippen save" - he "took over" zero games in his career and saved the bulls zero times - ONLY mj dominated and saved the team in basically every game, except 2 games that he didn't (paxson, kerr), which became famous for that reason.

[3ba11]

Taking the ball out of his hands doesn't mean his shots went down, it means his hold time/dribbling time went down.


That's fair - you're learning.. His hold-time was reduced a little bit in the triangle but it's important to note that MJ was never a ball-dominator like Lebron or Luka - he certainly COULD dominate the ball with the best of them and occasionally needed to, but he was always an off-guard and off-ball player that ran off screens and made a ton of jumpshots.. This is why the triangle worked with MJ because it doesn't work with a ball-dominator like Luka or Lebron... You can run the triangle OR Luka-ball - you can't run both...

Imagine telling Luka or Lebron to go stand at the high post and wait for a pass - then once they catch the ball, they have to turn and pivot a certain way to allow time for the cutters to reach their spot - and tons of other tiny nuances that basically remove a player's freedom and ability to dribble.. The only way to average 30 in the triangle is to use the "triangle footwork" and mid-range game that MJ invented/improved and mainstreamed, which Kobe, Dirk and others copied.. Phil told MJ that he wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the triangle, but even Phil significantly underestimated MJ's ability.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yep, with a chance to go up 3-0 against the 2x defending champs the Knicks just mailed that shit in :lol

I've said it before, you really missed your calling as a politician, though I know the mental illness would've made that difficult.

[3ba11]

Yep, with a chance to go up 3-0 against the 2x defending champs the Knicks just mailed that shit in :lol

I've said it before, you really missed your calling as a politician, though I know the mental illness would've made that difficult.


It seems nonsensical 30 years later but that's the intimidation that MJ and the Bulls had at the time - the Knicks and everyone knew that they couldn't go up 3-0 in Chicago Stadium - they weren't going to sweep the Bulls.. Literally no one thought the Bulls were going to lose Game 3.. No one was worried after they were down 0-2 either - it makes sense that people would have this type of confidence in a GOAT team that was about to 3-peat - it's hard for new fans like you to understand because you've never seen a team or basketball of this magnitude..

Maybe if you could imagine that Silver didn't suspend Draymond in 2016, so the Warriors are GOAT back-to-back champions heading into 2017 and about to 3-peat - no one would give a shit or feel any kind of way if those Warriors were down 0-2 in the WCF - it would be like..... AND??... No one would be worried about such a great team in their prime and that's how it was for those Bulls down 0-2... No one gave a shit.... "daaaaa Bulls"

[3ba11]

Yep, with a chance to go up 3-0 against the 2x defending champs the Knicks just mailed that shit in :lol

I've said it before, you really missed your calling as a politician, though I know the mental illness would've made that difficult.


And btw, the stats to tell the story - when the game was being contested, Jordan dominated and Pippen was MIA... When the game was a blowout and garbage time, Pippen padded.. That's the historical record of what happened.

So even if you don't buy the "mail-in" narrative (which was infact the case), the stats favor Jordan significantly in the meaningful minutes and when the game was decided.. this is what the stats say

[Hey Yo]

After the first 3 games ...MJ shot a combined 28% in that 93 series with NY.


:oldlol:

[3ba11]

After the first 3 games ...MJ shot a combined 28% in that 93 series with NY.


:oldlol:


sounds untrue because MJ dropped 54 in Game 4

against possibly the best defense ever

on all jumpers - it's one of the greatest jumpshooting displays of all-time

[Hey Yo]

sounds untrue because MJ dropped 54 in Game 4

against possibly the best defense ever

on all jumpers - it's one of the greatest jumpshooting displays of all-time
I was referring to the first 3gms

[1987_Lakers]

After the first 3 games ...MJ shot a combined 28% in that 93 series with NY.


:oldlol:

You talking about his first 3 games? Seems about right.

[3ba11]

Yep, with a chance to go up 3-0 against the 2x defending champs the Knicks just mailed that shit in :lol

I've said it before, you really missed your calling as a politician, though I know the mental illness would've made that difficult.


The shot shown on this ensuing possession is the biggest shot of Pippen's career - corner three assisted by Jordan - the dynasty might not get off the ground or significantly stalled without this shot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X66RkXuMkU&t=50s


It's a pretty big shot.... But it's telling that this is the biggest shot he hit between 88-03'

[SouBeachTalents]

The shot shown on this ensuing possession is the biggest shot of Pippen's career - corner three assisted by Jordan - the dynasty might not get off the ground or significantly stalled without this shot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X66RkXuMkU&t=50s


It's a pretty big shot.... But it's telling that this is the biggest shot he hit between 88-03'
Nope, it was this one

https://youtu.be/t-3qYxrpiqQ?si=fdTBlqykvn8QRQR_&t=6

Huge bucket to put them up 4 with 2 minutes to go in their toughest battle of the dynasty.

[3ba11]

Nope, it was this one

https://youtu.be/t-3qYxrpiqQ?si=fdTBlqykvn8QRQR_&t=6

Huge bucket to put them up 4 with 2 minutes to go in their toughest battle of the dynasty.


Chances are they were going to hold on in that game whether Pippen makes that or not, whereas they were down and needed every point to come back in 89' - the dynasty might not get off the ground or majorly stalled if Pippen misses that shot

And it was Pippen's 16 on 39% that caused the 98' ECF to be close - anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's poor play that caused it

But I'm glad we identified the 2 big shots that Pippen hit in his long career.... of course neither were a clinching shot

[Indian guy]

2007 Pistons (#6 SRS)
2015 Hawks (#4 SRS)
2016 Warriors (#1 SRS)
2018 Celtics (#7 SRS)


Nobody bothered to check him on this? :oldlol:

Here are 6 more teams LeBron beat without homecourt:

2011 Bulls (#2 SRS)
2012 Thunder (#3 SRS)
2014 Pacers (#8 SRS)
2018 Raptors (#2 SRS)
2023 Grizzlies (#5 SRS)
2023 Warriors (#10 SRS)

[tpols]

Nobody bothered to check him on this? :oldlol:

Here are 6 more teams LeBron beat without homecourt:

2011 Bulls (#2 SRS)
2012 Thunder (#3 SRS)
2014 Pacers (#8 SRS)
2018 Raptors (#2 SRS)
2023 Grizzlies (#5 SRS)
2023 Warriors (#10 SRS)

The Rose Noah Bulls, Roy Hibbert Paul George Pacers, and Lowry Derozan Raptors were a joke in hindsight. As were the Grizzlies without Ja. It's dishonest @ best to act like Lebrons teams were underdogs in those series.

In fact, they were Vegas favorites in every single one of those years by a big amount.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Rose Noah Bulls, Roy Hibbert Paul George Pacers, and Lowry Derozan Raptors were a joke in hindsight. As were the Grizzlies without Ja. It's dishonest @ best to act like Lebrons teams were underdogs in those series.

In fact, they were Vegas favorites in every single one of those years by a big amount.
Don't resort to 3ball tactics and blatantly lie. They were underdogs in 2012, 2018 & both 2023 series. You can disagree with Vegas on those, but what the odds were right before the series started after an entire seasons worth of games should be taken FAR more seriously than what the odds projected before any of these teams played a single game.

[1987_Lakers]

The Rose Noah Bulls, Roy Hibbert Paul George Pacers, and Lowry Derozan Raptors were a joke in hindsight. As were the Grizzlies without Ja. It's dishonest @ best to act like Lebrons teams were underdogs in those series.

In fact, they were Vegas favorites in every single one of those years by a big amount.

Lakers got up 3-1 with Morant playing. Lol at this dude trying to make it seem like Morant missed the series.

[RRR3]

ttrolls and immelting are the only people retarded enough to agree with 3ball on the entire board. Says a lot.

[tpols]

Lakers got up 3-1 with Morant playing. Lol at this dude trying to make it seem like Morant missed the series.

He was hurt and missed game in the series and was their best player. Again... it's a joke to act like that's some upset. You guys are clowning.

I could pull up the odds for every one of those years and embarrase you fellas.

[1987_Lakers]

He was hurt and missed game in the series and was their best player. Again... it's a joke to act like that's some upset. You guys are clowning.

LeBron played on a torn tendon the entire postseason that year and got surgery in the off-season. Stop the excuses. Morant missed one game when the series was already over.

[tpols]

It's not excuses. It's facts. A team with Desmond Bane as the leading scorer isn't expected to beat AD and Lebron.

[1987_Lakers]

It's not excuses. It's facts. A team with Desmond Bane as the leading scorer isn't expected to beat AD and Lebron.

Bane outscored an injured LeBron and AD.

Morant dropped 45 in game 3 and still lost.

:oldlol:

[tpols]

That makes it even worse.

Lebron got outplayed by Desmond Bane and his team still comfortably won.

It's just... a weak look to act like the Lakers beating the Grizzlies without their best player or the Derozan Raptors or Jeff Teague Hawks or Rose Bulls or Roy Hibbert PG Pacers etc. we're some big upsets lmao. It was actually the total opposite and they got their cheeks clapped and we all saw it. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

That makes it even worse.

Lebron got outplayed by Desmond Bane and his team still comfortably won.

It's just... a weak look to act like the Lakers beating the Grizzlies without their best player or the Derozan Raptors or Jeff Teague Hawks or Rose Bulls or Roy Hibbert PG Pacers etc. we're some big upsets lmao. It was actually the total opposite and they got their cheeks clapped and we all saw it. :oldlol:

Moving the goal posts now?

"Bane can't beat a team with LeBron and AD"
"LeBron got outplayed by Bane"

While also ignoring Morant dropped 45 in game 3 where the Grizzlies lost.

Keep crying fggot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA3vVzCYBB8

[Carbine]

You can argue about this and that team in retrospect for anything. Mavs weren't really that good considering they got stomped in the finals - tell that to the teams they took out of the west.

You know, the conference you said the 2022 Warriors would be a borderline playoff team in because of how stacked it was this year.

Lebron beating the 73 win Warriors is a feather in his cap that Jordan does not have. I guess in retrospect that wasn't that impressive either, right?

[tpols]

See now you're mad because you're wrong. That's OK. Let it out. When Ja went down Vegas odds were tremendously in the Lakers favor. As they were in Cleveland vs the Hawks and Raptors and for Miami vs the Bulls and Pacers.

The only series in Lebrons career we can confidently say he won as an under dog was in 2007 against the veteran Detroit Pistons. Where he went off.

But he's had so many more "chokes" than underdog victories ~ losing with HCA vs Orlando and Boston, 2011, 2014, becoming Jokic and Currys whipping boy in the playoffs... etc.

That's just how it went.

[1987_Lakers]

See now you're mad because you're wrong. That's OK. Let it out. When Ja went down Vegas odds were tremendously in the Lakers favor. As they were in Celevland vs the Hawks and Raptors and for Miami vs the Bulls and Pacers.

You mean after the Lakers already took a 3-1 lead? I know you are just trolling at this point. :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

See now you're mad because you're wrong. That's OK. Let it out. When Ja went down Vegas odds were tremendously in the Lakers favor. As they were in Cleveland vs the Hawks and Raptors and for Miami vs the Bulls and Pacers.

The only series in Lebrons career we can confidently say he won as an under dog was in 2007 against the veteran Detroit Pistons. Where he went off.

But he's had so many more "chokes" than underdog victories ~ losing with HCA vs Orlando and Boston, 2011, 2014, becoming Jokic and Currys whipping boy in the playoffs... etc.

That's just how it went.
He choked big time in '09. And do you really have such little shame you have to claim he was Curry's "whipping boy" when the only time Curry's beaten him was with a substantial talent advantage? Was Jordan Isiah's whipping boy too? Or maybe basketball isn't golf or tennis.

[RRR3]

He choked big time in '09. And do you really have such little shame you have to claim he was Curry's "whipping boy" when the only time Curry's beaten him was with a substantial talent advantage? Was Jordan Isiah's whipping boy too? Or maybe basketball isn't golf or tennis.
LeBron choked in 09 but Jokic simply didn't enough help this year :yaohappy:

Imagine if he held players he claims are better than LeBron to the standard he holds LeBron to :eek:

[tpols]

He choked big time in '09. And do you really have such little shame you have to claim he was Curry's "whipping boy" when the only time Curry's beaten him was with a substantial talent advantage? Was Jordan Isiah's whipping boy too? Or maybe basketball isn't golf or tennis.

Lebrons 2015 and 2016 Cleveland teams were the title favorites @ the start of both year by Vegas odds. He underachieved with the talent he had which gave people the misconception Curry had more talent. Pure hindsight bias. Curry isn't remotely as physically or genetically gifted as Lebron but he fostered a higher brand of ball that overachieved. Simple as that. Ditto for Yolk. And they both stomped him out in the playoff both by win loss record and point differential.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebrons 2015 and 2016 Cleveland teams were the title favorites @ the start of both year by Vegas odds. He underachieved with the talent he had which gave people the misconception Curry had more talent. Pure hindsight bias. Curry isn't remotely as physically or genetically gifted as Lebron but he fostered a higher brand of ball that overachieved. Simple as that. Ditto for Yolk. And they both stomped him out in the playoff both by win loss record and point differential.
Bringing up 2015 and literally not mentioning the circumstances of that series just proves you argue like a clown :lol

Bringing up LeBron losing to a peak 3x MVP at 38-39 years old as some kind of damning narrative on his career is quite clownish too.

[RRR3]

Tpols isn't as detached from reality as 3ball is so I think he legit must have a humiliation fetish. That or he's legitimately that blinded by LeBron hatred or his own stupidity.

[1987_Lakers]

Tpols isn't as detached from reality as 3ball is so I think he legit must have a humiliation fetish. That or he's legitimately that blinded by LeBron hatred or his own stupidity.

He low key trolls alot, I remember him conceding that LeBron is a greater player than Curry after that '23 series. Also said something like "I will no longer hate on LeBron," which didn't last.

[tpols]

Bringing up 2015 and literally not mentioning the circumstances of that series just proves you argue like a clown :lol

Bringing up LeBron losing to a peak 3x MVP at 38-39 years old as some kind of damning narrative on his career is quite clownish too.

I dont think you read the whole post though.

Cleveland was Vegas favorite in both 2015 and 2016. This is factual information.

But people see 2016 as an upset. It really wasn't all tampering aside. Golden State just developed GOAT chemistry that year (and the year before) while the Cavs had poor chemistry by comparison. Remember, they traded Wiggins for Love and the fit was so bad Love fell into a mental depression.

And then Curry went on to win a title withWiggins as his next best player. :oldlol:

You can't make this shit up. It's almost poetic.

[RRR3]

He low key trolls alot, I remember him conceding that LeBron is a greater player than Curry after that '23 series. Also said something like "I will no longer hate on LeBron," which didn't last.
Yeah I remember that too. Bro lasted like a week without raging about LBJ :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

I dont think you read the whole post though.

Cleveland was Vegas favorite in both 2015 and 2016. This is factual information.

But people see 2016 as an upset. It really wasn't all tampering aside. Golden State just developed GOAT chemistry that year (and the year before) while the Cavs had poor chemistry by comparison. Remember, they traded Wiggins for Love and the fit was so bad Love fell into a mental depression.

And then Curry went on to win a title withWiggins as his next best player. :oldlol:

You can't make this shit up. It's almost poetic.

Preseason odds are your favorite thing :lol