Is there a huge difference defensively between Deandre Jordan and Hakeem/Robinson?

[iamgine]

Deandre Jordan was 1st team All Defense. Hakeem/Robinson was also 1st team All Defense. We all can agree Hakeem/Robinson was better defensively but would you say the difference was huge or just a small difference?

[gengiskhan]

Hakeem is the Greatest Defensive Player the Game has ever seen In NBA History

and yes. better than Bill Russell.

Let that sink in!

[SouBeachTalents]

DeAndre was better than either of them imo

[sdot_thadon]

Deandre Jordan was 1st team All Defense. Hakeem/Robinson was also 1st team All Defense. We all can agree Hakeem/Robinson was better defensively but would you say the difference was huge or just a small difference?

Off the top of my head? Hands and mobility. Dream was a pretty good perimeter defender despite being a center, both were great rim protectors. But I'll say Jordan didn't have the hands on Defense these 2 possessed nor the ability to move his feet to the same level. Also Robinson and Olajuwon were strong man defenders even in matchups with other elite players. Yes, I know Dream murdered Robinson in a series in 1995 but that's just one matchup out of an entire career where he usually did well one on one. (Side note, that series Rodman supposedly refused to play help defense on Olajuwon) I'm sure there's numbers to support the arguments too.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Olajuwon's quickness set him apart from normal rim protectors, even good ones. A lot of bugs that would have been good in the past weren't good in the present because of the need to defend on the perimeter. He would not have fallen victim to that.

[Patrick Chewing]

Hakeem is the Greatest Defensive Player the Game has ever seen In NBA History

and yes. better than Bill Russell.

Let that sink in!

This. There is no one close to Hakeem.


Of the top 60 leaders in Steals all-time in the NBA, he's the only Center on that list. The next Center on that list is actually David Robinson at 68. Hakeem is 11th all time in Steals in the NBA. Let all of that sink in.

[sdot_thadon]

Olajuwon's quickness set him apart from normal rim protectors, even good ones. A lot of bugs that would have been good in the past weren't good in the present because of the need to defend on the perimeter. He would not have fallen victim to that.

And that quick 2nd, 3rd jump. He could contest/block multiple shots on one possession because he was able to get in the air again so quickly with his already incredible timing.

[3ba11]

In the 90's, Hakeem never had to guard MJ on the perimeter.. He never had to guard Bird, Magic, or Tim Hardaway 25 feet from the rim.

He cannot guard any of these guys.

And he would have to guard them in the many iso mismatches that all bigs face in today's game..

This nullifies his impact in today's game compared to the 80's and 90's where he could camp under the rim.

It's intuitive and obvious, and I'm sure a cursory statistical analysis of comps would back me up on this like the numbers always do.. The numbers will always back up a good eye test and this eye test is something everyone knows and can obviously see - Hakeem's impact is a lot less in an era where he must consistently defend MJ and Luka, as opposed to an era where the lack of spacing strategy allows him to camp under the rim for most possessions.. It's night and day.

The fact that there will be many series throughout Hakeem's career where he gets exploited and nullified like all bigs are today would make him more of a perennial loser with weak teams than he already was in the big man era (80's and 90's).

[ShawkFactory]

In the 90's, Hakeem never had to guard MJ on the perimeter.. He never had to guard Bird, Magic, or Tim Hardaway 25 feet from the rim.

He cannot guard any of these guys.

And he would have to guard them in the many iso mismatches that all bigs face in today's game..

This nullifies his impact in today's game compared to the 80's and 90's where he could camp under the rim.

It's intuitive and obvious, and I'm sure a cursory statistical analysis of comps would back me up on this like the numbers always do.. The numbers will always back up a good eye test and this eye test is something everyone knows and can obviously see - Hakeem's impact is a lot less in an era where he must consistently defend MJ and Luka, as opposed to an era where the lack of spacing strategy allows him to camp under the rim for most possessions.. It's night and day.

The fact that there will be many series throughout Hakeem's career where he gets exploited and nullified like all bigs are today would make him more of a perennial loser with weak teams than he already was in the big man era (80's and 90's).

So he’s no more special than the watered down bigs today. Thanks for explaining!

[3ba11]

So he’s no more special than the watered down bigs today. Thanks for explaining!


That's what today's game does - it waters down the bigs - imagine Hakeem spending massive chunks of possessions 25 feet from the hoops - lol - impact doh.. today's bigs routinely get benched against well-coached and well-schemed teams.. MJ would never get benched due to an offensive or defensive issue.. :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

That's what today's game does - it waters down the bigs - imagine Hakeem spending massive chunks of possessions 25 feet from the hoops - lol - impact doh.. today's bigs routinely get benched against well-coached and well-schemed teams.. MJ would never get benched due to an offensive or defensive issue.. :confusedshrug:
MJ would get benched because he couldn't shoot 3s. He'd be a situational bench scorer.

[3ba11]

.
3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR ALL REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS:



1985..... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
__________________________
total....... 196-539 (36.4%)




PLAYOFF SERIES WITH 3+ ATTEMPTS HIGHLIGHTED BELOW (REGULAR LINE ONLY):



https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-18-2023/rNUkaK.gif


53 of 135 = 39%





MJ would get benched because he couldn't shoot 3s. He'd be a situational bench scorer.


The stats above confirm that Jordan always shot well at today's volume (3+ attempts).

Specifically, during the 1985 to 1993 regular seasons (the regular line years), MJ shot 36.4% on threes for games where he had 3+ attempts and 39% for playoff series where he had 3+ attempts.. So again, there are zero examples of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes (3+ attempts), while there are tons of examples of Lebron shooting poorly at 3+ attempts.

Since MJ was already shooting 36-39% at today's volumes despite no practice or focus on the shot (the entire era didn't focus on the shot), MJ would shoot 40% or more WITH practice in today's game.

Ultimately, MJ was the goat 2-point jumpshooter and had great 3-point ability when he decided to have today's volume - this isn't an opinion, it's what the stats say, as shown above.. So Jordan is a goat-level jumpshooter while Lebron shoots 37% outside of 3 feet for his career and is a historic bricklayer - most people would probably guess that he's the 689th best jumpshooter in the history of basketball (give or take) on 2 pointers or 3-pointers.

[RRR3]

.
3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR ALL REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS:



1985..... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
__________________________
total....... 196-539 (36.4%)




PLAYOFF SERIES WITH 3+ ATTEMPTS HIGHLIGHTED BELOW (REGULAR LINE ONLY):



https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-18-2023/rNUkaK.gif


53 of 135 = 39%







The stats above confirm that Jordan always shot well at today's volume (3+ attempts).

Specifically, during the 1985 to 1993 regular seasons (the regular line years), MJ shot 36.4% on threes for games where he had 3+ attempts and 39% for playoff series where he had 3+ attempts.. So again, there are zero examples of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes (3+ attempts), while there are tons of examples of Lebron shooting poorly at 3+ attempts.

Since MJ was already shooting 36-39% at today's volumes despite no practice or focus on the shot (the entire era didn't focus on the shot), MJ would shoot 40% or more WITH practice in today's game.

Ultimately, MJ was the goat 2-point jumpshooter and had great 3-point ability when he decided to have today's volume - this isn't an opinion, it's what the stats say, as shown above.. So Jordan is a goat-level jumpshooter while Lebron shoots 37% outside of 3 feet for his career and is a historic bricklayer - most people would probably guess that he's the 689th best jumpshooter in the history of basketball (give or take) on 2 pointers or 3-pointers.
3+ attempts is not today's volume whatsoever given the amount of shots he took. Like 10% of his shots were 3s and he was left wide open. He'd be a bench chucker today cuz his efficiency would be awful.

[3ba11]

3+ attempts is not today's volume whatsoever given the amount of shots he took. Like 10% of his shots were 3s and he was left wide open. He'd be a bench chucker today cuz his efficiency would be awful.


According to NBA.com, over 80% of today's threes are either "open" (4 to 6 feet from closest defender), or "wide open" (6+ feet).

So today's format is more designed for open threes than previous eras where Miller or Dale Ellis got all their threes by running off screens with a defender glued to them - they rarely got to stand out there and wait for open kickouts generated via high-screen role like today's standard... It's amazing that Jordan overcame the confirmed massive talent deficit (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?518031-1987_Lakers-said-roster-deficit-at-3-thru-7-spots-quot-2-much-2-overcome-quot-(why-Mavs-lost)) to the Blazers by employing a modern brand of ball by getting open kickout threes - it was genius and it confirmed his goatness by adapting to today's game at a record level.. It might be his best Finals.

[RRR3]

According to NBA.com, over 80% of today's threes are either "open" (4 to 6 feet from closest defender), or "wide open" (6+ feet).

So today's format is more designed for open threes than previous eras where Miller or Dale Ellis got all their threes by running off screens with a defender glued to them - they rarely got to stand out there and wait for open kickouts generated via high-screen role like today's standard... It's amazing that Jordan overcame the confirmed massive talent deficit (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?518031-1987_Lakers-said-roster-deficit-at-3-thru-7-spots-quot-2-much-2-overcome-quot-(why-Mavs-lost)) to the Blazers by employing a modern brand of ball by getting open kickout threes - it was genius and it confirmed his goatness by adapting to today's game at a record level.. It might be his best Finals.
MJ in today's game would be Jordan Clarkson AT BEST. Players have developed too many skills, his basic skillset is simply unremarkable now. We've seen the footage, it was basically like the deadball era of baseball in quality. Imagine saying Ty Cobb could hit like Aaron Judge, that's basically what you're doing :oldlol:

[3ba11]

MJ in today's game would be Jordan Clarkson AT BEST. Players have developed too many skills, his basic skillset is simply unremarkable now. We've seen the footage, it was basically like the deadball era of baseball in quality. Imagine saying Ty Cobb could hit like Aaron Judge, that's basically what you're doing :oldlol:


it's sad that you can't see Jordan's one-of-a-kind, best-of-all-time skill - it's part of the proof of his goatness that nascent fans believe he scored at a higher rate than anyone ever did in "ordinary" and "unremarkable" fashion.

[RRR3]

it's sad that you can't see Jordan's one-of-a-kind, best-of-all-time skill - it's part of the proof of his goatness that nascent fans believe he scored at a higher rate than anyone ever did in "ordinary" and "unremarkable" fashion.
What skill? Basic dribbling, no left hand and can't hit contested jumpers (left open constantly)? He'd be a joke in today's league. The game has evolved, deal with it.

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan needed a short 3 point line to shoot 40%.

Once the league moved it back to its original distance he shot a horrific 24%.

[RRR3]

Jordan needed a short 3 point line to shoot 40%.

Once the league moved it back to its original distance he shot a horrific 24%.
3ball is the equivalent of some idiot trying to tell us some guy throwing 82 MPH in 1984 would dominate today's hitters. Relative to era MJ might be GOAT but he's nowhere near LeBron in actual ability.

[Phoenix]

Was about to seriously reply, but I see the topic somehow morphed into an MJ thread...from a topic comparing Deandre Jordan with Hakeem and Admiral. I swear I'm losing brain cells visiting this site.

[3ba11]

What skill? Basic dribbling, no left hand and can't hit contested jumpers (left open constantly)? He'd be a joke in today's league. The game has evolved, deal with it.



devin booker or harden can't do this:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-04-2021/1lxRBS.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-04-2021/8dexIF.gif


stop lyin

[RRR3]

devin booker or harden can't do this:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-04-2021/1lxRBS.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-04-2021/8dexIF.gif


stop lyin
Were those supposed to be impressive? I literally see third guards off the bench do shit like that today. You admitted you don't watch, so you wouldn't know so you literally can't argue. This is actually proof you haven't watched ball in decades, thinking those mediocre plays are impressive lmfao.

[3ba11]

Were those supposed to be impressive? I literally see third guards off the bench do shit like that today. You admitted you don't watch, so you wouldn't know so you literally can't argue. This is actually proof you haven't watched ball in decades, thinking those mediocre plays are impressive lmfao.


the best players in the league don't do that today... maybe giannis can drop-step like that or bigs, no perimeter players and certainly not guards

[RRR3]

the best players in the league don't do that today... maybe giannis can drop-step like that or bigs, no perimeter players and certainly not guards
You haven't watched basketball in decades how would you know? You literally told us that. And yeah every guard in the league can do that. It's basic af. MJ's skills were incredibly lackluster by modern standards.

[3ba11]

You haven't watched basketball in decades how would you know? You literally told us that. And yeah every guard in the league can do that. It's basic af. MJ's skills were incredibly lackluster by modern standards.


there's nothing that today's player does that I cannot show MJ doing it better - this includes any type of scoring, shooting, passing, dribbling, blocking, stealing, lor offensive rebounding

the goat thing about MJ is that he was goat-level at EVERYTHING - defense and every type of offense

[3ba11]

.
I don't see anyone in today's game making plays like this so EASILY and CLEANLY - someone like Ant would 100% fall down after a dunk like this:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/Q6Op3c.gif


A lot of people don't realize that when you look at Ant's dunks - his shortness and small hands force him to need a lot of space between himself and the defender when he takes off, while MJ can go right up to the defender like a big man and take off right next to them and dunk in their face:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-04-2024/wQ9amB.gif