MJ's 91' Finals possession & clutch-time stats revealed for the 1st time

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4T25pHu7Nc

[Axe]

91 pippen > 00 kobe

[3ba11]

91 pippen > 00 kobe


The sidekick role alongside MJ was the easiest one in the league that doesn't need 30-point capability in the playoffs and faces the least defensive attention with virtually zero 4th quarter or clutch load, or accountability - no one tracks your stats or gives a shit - zero pressure.. As long as the team wins and gets carried by MJ, you'll get top 30 status due to the ring count, so buckle up for the ride.

Now compare that to Kobe - the next MJ - who of course destroys Pippen's only viable playoff run in 91'... Pippen forced MJ to win multiple chips by being scoring champ, and multiple chips while being usage champ - both burdens (scoring or possessions) are unprecedented while winning chips.. Low peak capability for Pippen means that he wasn't on scouting reports (according to shaq), which forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention in every series..

[SouBeachTalents]

That dude said '09 Kobe was an iconic Finals performance :roll:

[3ba11]

91 pippen > 00 kobe


Btw, Pippen didn't guard Magic in the 91' Finals barely at all compared to MJ - the video showed that with per possession data on both sides of the ball - this is unprecedented information that confirms MJ's 91' Finals was goat due to goat scoring, goat passing, goat defense, and goat clutch..

It's an amazing video just like his other video that did a 7-game sample with video of each possession and play-by-play data for Jordan's steals in 97' - this countered the false info of Haberstoh's 6-game sample in 88'.. Uncut provided all the sourcing that Haberstroh didn't.. again, Uncut showed every possession from the sample in the video and they were all fully-available games from the 97' season with sourcing for those games in the video.

[3ba11]

That dude said '09 Kobe was an iconic Finals performance :roll:


09' Kobe averaged 32 ppg or something, so that's 3-4 more than 2016 Lebron - no one cares about defensive rebounds that are based on position, or ball-dominance that requires greater help like an equal-scoring teammate to "close" - a stark contrast to Pau getting carried by kobe and forcing Kobe to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).

[SouBeachTalents]

09' Kobe averaged 32 ppg or something, so that's 3-4 more than 2016 Lebron - no one cares about defensive rebounds that are based on position, or ball-dominance that requires greater help like an equal-scoring teammate to "close" - a stark contrast to Pau getting carried by kobe and forcing Kobe to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).
Yeah bro, scoring 32 points on 27 shots is more impressive than scoring 30 while leading both teams in every category while beating a 73 win team.

I know you don't actually believe anything you just said, so you're welcome for the attention :lol

[tpols]

That dude said '09 Kobe was an iconic Finals performance :roll:

I wouldn't say it was iconic but he did kick the teams ass that beat Lebrons 66 win team with HCA.

Kobe averaged 32/7/6 on good efficiency while taking all the heat of the Magics defense which was #1 ranked I believe.

[3ba11]

Yeah bro, scoring 32 points on 27 shots is more impressive than scoring 30 points while leading both teams in every category whilr beating a 73 win team.

I know deep down you don't actually believe anything you said :lol So you're welcome for the attention


That's what it takes to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load while winning Finals) like lebron failed to do in the 2015 Finals - he shot like Iverson so he couldn't win like Kobe did..

Kobe had the expert jumpshooting skill to score while the ball moves, so he had sufficient brand of ball at high volume to beat top teams, while Lebron is too ball-dominant at high scoring volume to beat top teams like the 09' ECF or 15' Finals, to name a few.. Insufficient brand at high scoring volume is why he never defeated max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level) and never carried weak help over top teams (never beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick).

Carry on

[tpols]

Yeah bro, scoring 32 points on 27 shots is more impressive than scoring 30 while leading both teams in every category while beating a 73 win team.

I know you don't actually believe anything you just said, so you're welcome for the attention :lol

Lebron had a scoring partner that was basically his equal during the "comeback".

Kyrie was dropping 40+ point games and hitting the series clinching buckets. He outplayed peak MVP Steph Curry by a big amount.

Pau Gasol was a teenie bop scorer doing 18 a game to Kobes 32. Huge difference.

[Axe]

The sidekick role alongside MJ was the easiest one in the league that doesn't need 30-point capability in the playoffs and faces the least defensive attention with virtually zero 4th quarter or clutch load, or accountability - no one tracks your stats or gives a shit - zero pressure.. As long as the team wins and gets carried by MJ, you'll get top 30 status due to the ring count, so buckle up for the ride.

Now compare that to Kobe - the next MJ - who of course destroys Pippen's only viable playoff run in 91'... Pippen forced MJ to win multiple chips by being scoring champ, and multiple chips while being usage champ - both burdens (scoring or possessions) are unprecedented while winning chips.. Low peak capability for Pippen means that he wasn't on scouting reports (according to shaq), which forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention in every series..
Pip in 91 finals: 21 ppg

Kobe in 00 finals: 16 ppg

[1987_Lakers]

I don't believe any of this unless "Thinking basketball" confirms.

[1987_Lakers]

Some of the YouTube videos the guy in the OP has made.

"LeBalco James HAS CHEATED THE GAME"

"Anthony Edwards JUST EXPOSED LeBron James"

"LeBron James IS THE GOAT OF EXCUSES"

"Nick Wright GETS EXPOSED TRYING TO PROTECT LEBRON"

Obvious agenda is obvious.

[3ba11]

I don't believe any of this unless "Thinking basketball" confirms.


He said the 90' Bulls had a 0 percentile cast, or better than 0% of casts - the worst cast in the league - yet Jordan would've beaten the Pistons for a 2nd year in a row if Pippen didn't crap out in the close out game just like 89' - put Olden Polynice and all the draft picks the Bulls gave up for slow-growing Pippen and the Bulls easily win from 88-90' - certainly any remotely reliable SF in pippen's place would win in those years - pippen wasn't considered a great defender or even a good scorer

[1987_Lakers]

He said the 90' Bulls had a 0 percentile cast, or better than 0% of casts - the worst cast in the league - yet Jordan would've beaten the Pistons for a 2nd year in a row if Pippen didn't crap out in the close out game just like 89' - put Olden Polynice and all the draft picks the Bulls gave up for slow-growing Pippen and the Bulls easily win from 88-90' - certainly any remotely reliable SF in pippen's place would win in those years - pippen wasn't considered a great defender or even a good scorer

You sure about that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqGDLV-do9c&t

[3ba11]

You sure about that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqGDLV-do9c&t


11:59 mark ([url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqGDLV-do9c&t=11m59s[/url]


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-06-2022/Yg_ATJ.gif


0 percentile cast in 1990, so Jordan was winning with nothing in 1990 if not for the migraine... Then as the chemistry increases, the low-producing robots of the Bulls were still playing effective basketball - even so, the first 3-peat Bulls were still worse than 1 in 4 casts in the league - again, 3-peating when 1 in 4 casts are still superior.. the 2nd three-peat casts he doesn't address much because they were in the bottom half of the league again... he's fos and his numbers were actually debunked by nba.com

[1987_Lakers]

11:59 mark ([url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqGDLV-do9c&t=11m59s[/url]


0 percentile cast in 1990, so Jordan was winning with nothing in 1990 if not for the migraine... Then as the chemistry increases, the low-producing robots of the Bulls were still playing effective basketball - even so, the first 3-peat Bulls were still worse than 1 in 4 casts in the league - again, 3-peating when 1 in 4 casts are still superior.. the 2nd three-peat casts he doesn't address much because they were in the bottom half of the league again

It says 0% from 1988-1990 you jabroni.

75% percentile from 91-93

You done lying?

[3ba11]

It says 0% from 1988-1990 you jabroni.

75% percentile from 91-93

You done lying?


0 percentile from 88-90' means the Bulls cast was better than 0% of casts during that time

and then 1 in 4 casts were still better than the 1st three-peat Bulls

however, his numbers are nonsense and don't measure a cast's on-paper talent, only the developed chemistry in the Bulls case.. the bulls had bums that simply developed great chemistry.. organic casts like the today's nuggets or the 90's bulls are always ordinary but simply have great chemistry and brand of ball that wouldn't be possible if the 1st option was a ball-dominator or didn't have a well-rounded offensive skillset and scoring diversity

[1987_Lakers]

So now you change it from 90 to 88-90 now that I exposed you. :lol

[3ba11]

So now you change it from 90 to 88-90 now that I exposed you. :lol


i said that the bulls had the worst cast in 90' and you said "no, it was 88', 89', and 90'"

your support for the GOAT MJ is appreciated..


https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYjVjeWl6Y25ncjcxMnU4N3FvbWlwemJ 5a3NxYmFxOTJnY3M3c2J0aCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/DfLwM9kttDFEQ/giphy.webp

[1987_Lakers]

i said that the bulls had the worst cast in 90' and you said "no, it was 88', 89', and 90'"

your support for the GOAT MJ is appreciated..


https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYjVjeWl6Y25ncjcxMnU4N3FvbWlwemJ 5a3NxYmFxOTJnY3M3c2J0aCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/DfLwM9kttDFEQ/giphy.webp

By 1990 the cast was starting to perform better. The cast from 88 and 89 was a huge reason why they fell to 0%.

Nice try trying to weasel your way out of another lie.

[3ba11]

By 1990 the cast was starting to perform better. The cast from 88 and 89 was a huge reason why they fell to 0%.

Nice try trying to weasel your way out of another lie.


this is one of the ways that we know it's a fraud.. if what you say is true, then why not post each year? Why say that all 3 years were 0% as a group? Of course, what you're saying can't be true anyway because if 90' was above 0%, than the overall would be above 0%... Don't you know how math works?.. Again, this is a fraud - there are many ways to verify this such as comparing his plus-minus data later in the video to NBA.com - it's a fake.. a fugazi

Unlike Uncut Hoops who did the entire 7-game sample of 97' steals sample ON VIDEO with play-by-play and video sources to verify the data, Haberstroh and Thinking Basketball claim they watched 80's games that no one has access to and for which there is no play-by-play data to verify the correct plays.. Didn't you learn what fake and real means?

[gengiskhan]

I saw this 1991 NBA Finals live, my first one ever.......

1991 MJ's agility, slipping thru defensive cracks, was never before seen again in later MJ years as he deliberately bulked up under "breakfast" club.

here, He was too fluid. almost liquidy in movements and ball placement.

I still watch 1991 finals here and there.......and I realize, he is 'placing' the ball instead of dribbling like a futbol soccer dribbler.

His dribbles and offensive ball movements here are like set up before the kill by a striker. The smoothness in so baffling at times, he is already at the rim.

"the move" is the perfect example. Look how he loads up, take off, stretches his ball dominant hand, then switches, realizes "oops, I am at the basket already, better get it up before they call TO". Reverse angle camera gives us the best idea of it all.

Some of the MJ passes here are so 'elite', he was literally competing with Magic in passing here. They were literally some bullets flying, either needled thru or violently penetrated in Horace's and other PFs direction at last second.

1991 MJ was definitely playing a game within a game.

[Airupthere]

Some of the YouTube videos the guy in the OP has made.

"LeBalco James HAS CHEATED THE GAME"

"Anthony Edwards JUST EXPOSED LeBron James"

"LeBron James IS THE GOAT OF EXCUSES"

"Nick Wright GETS EXPOSED TRYING TO PROTECT LEBRON"

Obvious agenda is obvious.

Bransexuals aren't allowed to comment on flopping, lying, bias, agenda, and propaganda.

[gengiskhan]

Bransexuals aren't allowed to comment on flopping, lying, bias, agenda, and propaganda.

but....but....but...

Bronsexuals are allowed to comment on LeFlopping, LeLying, LeBias, LeAgenda and LePropoganda only

[dankok8]

Great video!

I also tracked Jordan in the 1991 Finals as a part of the plus-minus project.

ON Court: +52, 118.2 ORtg, 105.7 DRtg, +12.5 Net Rtg
OFF Court: -3, 91.5 ORtg, 99.2 DRtg, -7.7 Net Rtg

Against Magic, he was quite good defending him in Game 2/3/5 and terrible in Game 1/4. Generally speaking, Jordan was excellent on defense overall and blew up a lot of plays. Magic was just so tough to guard individually with his strength and just his patience and how he methodically worked for his shots. Sometimes people act like Magic lighting him up is a bad look for Jordan. Magic is one of the greatest offensive players ever. And a super underrated iso scorer.

[gbaLL]

im da MJ / paz

[Phoenix]

Great video!

I also tracked Jordan in the 1991 Finals as a part of the plus-minus project.

ON Court: +52, 118.2 ORtg, 105.7 DRtg, +12.5 Net Rtg
OFF Court: -3, 91.5 ORtg, 99.2 DRtg, -7.7 Net Rtg

Against Magic, he was quite good defending him in Game 2/3/5 and terrible in Game 1/4. Generally speaking, Jordan was excellent on defense overall and blew up a lot of plays. Magic was just so tough to guard individually with his strength and just his patience and how he methodically worked for his shots. Sometimes people act like Magic lighting him up is a bad look for Jordan. Magic is one of the greatest offensive players ever. And a super underrated iso scorer.

Magic was like 3 inches taller and had a great post game( on top of GOAT level passing). He should have been lighting him up, frankly.

[3ba11]

Great video!

I also tracked Jordan in the 1991 Finals as a part of the plus-minus project.

ON Court: +52, 118.2 ORtg, 105.7 DRtg, +12.5 Net Rtg
OFF Court: -3, 91.5 ORtg, 99.2 DRtg, -7.7 Net Rtg

Against Magic, he was quite good defending him in Game 2/3/5 and terrible in Game 1/4. Generally speaking, Jordan was excellent on defense overall and blew up a lot of plays. Magic was just so tough to guard individually with his strength and just his patience and how he methodically worked for his shots. Sometimes people act like Magic lighting him up is a bad look for Jordan. Magic is one of the greatest offensive players ever. And a super underrated iso scorer.


You're lying about Magic "lighting up" MJ - Magic struggled mightily the entire series - at no point was he "lighting up" anyone let alone MJ, and MJ limited Magic's activity - Magic didn't average 30 like he did the previous season against KJ's Suns - his activity was completely limited by MJ and he barely shot at all - MJ nullified Magic so he wasn't a factor in the series..

Game 1 was won by Worthy and Perkins, who destroyed Pippen and Grant respectively

Stop lying.. It's pathetic and easily disproven

[And1AllDay]

He said the 90' Bulls had a 0 percentile cast, or better than 0% of casts - the worst cast in the league - yet Jordan would've beaten the Pistons for a 2nd year in a row if Pippen didn't crap out in the close out game just like 89' - put Olden Polynice and all the draft picks the Bulls gave up for slow-growing Pippen and the Bulls easily win from 88-90' - certainly any remotely reliable SF in pippen's place would win in those years - pippen wasn't considered a great defender or even a good scorer

mikey quit it 88, 89, 90, 94,95,99,00,01,02,03,04,05

[dankok8]

You're lying about Magic "lighting up" MJ - Magic struggled mightily the entire series - at no point was he "lighting up" anyone let alone MJ, and MJ limited Magic's activity - Magic didn't average 30 like he did the previous season against KJ's Suns - his activity was completely limited by MJ and he barely shot at all - MJ nullified Magic so he wasn't a factor in the series..

Game 1 was won by Worthy and Perkins, who destroyed Pippen and Grant respectively

Stop lying.. It's pathetic and easily disproven

Struggled mightily? I don't know what series you were watching. Magic put up 18.6/8.0/12.4 on 61.2 %TS with 4.4 topg and ran the offense impeccably.

As for MJ, sure Magic didn't score a lot of points against him but when MJ was guarding him, he did get lit up. I tracked this series. Magic scored 34 points with MJ guarding him in this series on 8/12 FG and 16/17 FT which is 87.3 %TS. That's obscene efficiency. Now of course it varied from game to game. MJ was just awful on defense in Game 1. In that game Magic destroyed him. In Game 2, MJ didn't spend a lot of possessions on Magic and in Game 3 and Game 5 MJ was very effective against him as a primary defender. Game 4 was a struggle but MJ split duties with Pippen again so it wasn't as bad as Game 1.

Overall, MJ was quite good defensively in this series but against Magic specifically, he wasn't good. He fouled a lot and then also couldn't handle the much stronger Magic down low when he got backed down. It's not a good matchup for MJ to be guarding him.

[sdot_thadon]

Struggled mightily? I don't know what series you were watching. Magic put up 18.6/8.0/12.4 on 61.2 %TS with 4.4 topg and ran the offense impeccably.
That's crazy, kudos for the observation.

[Carbine]

I remember the series well and specifically those reps where Jordan was on Magic.

One thing to note is that even when Magic missed a shot, it wasn't because of anything MJ did for the vast vast majority of them. For example, backing his ass down into the paint and missing a baby hook with no contest from MJ isn't "stopping" Magic, he just missed an easy shot.

[3ba11]

ran the offense impeccably.





The Lakers' offense was atrocious with 104 ORTG in the 91' Finals

So you're factually wrong - Magic was horrible in the 91' Finals and the offense was far from "impeccable"

You sound like Nick Wright and debunked just as easily.






Struggled mightily?





Magic was the only player in the series that got "lit up" in his matchup

absolutely destroyed by MJ in every aspect, including passing - Magic's turnover percentage was 22.4 compared to 12.4 for MJ, with nearly equal assist.. and MJ didn't even have to play point guard and dominate the ball like Magic - it was a basketball LESSON to a player that was viewed as having GOAT IQ

And MJ locked up Magic in the critical Game 3 OT that swung the series, while Pippen watched from the bench.. Game 3 was the deciding game, not the blowout in Game 2, which was decided by an 85% third quarter and 13 straight makes by MJ (culminating in the switch-hands shot)






18.6/8.0/12.4 on 61.2 %TS with 4.4 topg




91' Magic Reg Season..... 19.4 and 12.5 APG... 4.0 tov.... 62.3 TS.. 124 ORTG
91' Magic Western PO..... 22.9 and 12.7 APG... 3.9 tov.... 59.2 TS.. 123 ORTG... 22.7 gmsc
91' Magic Finals vs MJ'.... 18.6 and 12.4 APG... 4.4 tov.... 61.2 TS.. 120 ORTG... 20.0 gmsc <--- worst stats





As for MJ, sure Magic didn't score a lot of points against him but when MJ was guarding him, he did get lit up.





That makes no sense - you just said that Magic didn't score a lot of points on MJ, but that he lit MJ up - that's an oxymoron..






I tracked this series. Magic scored 34 points with MJ guarding him





6 points per game?... that's it?

Jordan completely limited Magic's overall activity - no one cared about Magic's 18 ppg when Jordan was getting 31 with equal assists and half the turnover percentage...

If we had to say which matchup was the biggest reason the Lakers lost, it would be Magic getting completely dominated by Jordan, while Perkins/Vlade destroyed Grant and hobbled Worthy was still close to Pippen..

TLDR: Magic getting destroyed by MJ was the biggest reason the lakers lost the 91' finals, since everyone else did much better in their matchup by either being close in their matchup (worthy/pip) or destroying their matchup (vlade/perkins > grant)

[dankok8]

The Lakers' offense was atrocious with 104 ORTG in the 91' Finals

So you're factually wrong - Magic was horrible in the 91' Finals and the offense was far from "impeccable"

You sound like Nick Wright and debunked just as easily.






Magic was the only player in the series that got "lit up" in his matchup

absolutely destroyed by MJ in every aspect, including passing - Magic's turnover percentage was 22.4 compared to 12.4 for MJ, with nearly equal assist.. and MJ didn't even have to play point guard and dominate the ball like Magic - it was a basketball LESSON to a player that was viewed as having GOAT IQ

And MJ locked up Magic in the critical Game 3 OT that swung the series, while Pippen watched from the bench.. Game 3 was the deciding game, not the blowout in Game 2, which was decided by an 85% third quarter and 13 straight makes by MJ (culminating in the switch-hands shot)





91' Magic Reg Season..... 19.4 and 12.5 APG... 4.0 tov.... 62.3 TS.. 124 ORTG
91' Magic Western PO..... 22.9 and 12.7 APG... 3.9 tov.... 59.2 TS.. 123 ORTG... 22.7 gmsc
91' Magic Finals vs MJ'.... 18.6 and 12.4 APG... 4.4 tov.... 61.2 TS.. 120 ORTG... 20.0 gmsc <--- worst stats





That makes no sense - you just said that Magic didn't score a lot of points on MJ, but that he lit MJ up - that's an oxymoron..






6 points per game?... that's it?

Jordan completely limited Magic's overall activity - no one cared about Magic's 18 ppg when Jordan was getting 31 with equal assists and half the turnover percentage...

If we had to say which matchup was the biggest reason the Lakers lost, it would be Magic getting completely dominated by Jordan, while Perkins/Vlade destroyed Grant and hobbled Worthy was still close to Pippen..

TLDR: Magic getting destroyed by MJ was the biggest reason the lakers lost the 91' finals, since everyone else did much better in their matchup by either being close in their matchup (worthy/pip) or destroying their matchup (vlade/perkins > grant)

Dude MJ dominating Magic overall doesn't mean he did a good job defending Magic. MJ won the matchup because he himself was GOAT level offensively not because he stopped Magic on D. I agree with what you're saying but you're attacking a strawman.

The point is Magic lit up MJ. Did he do it for a lot of points? Not really. Did he win the matchup? Of course not. But MJ still couldn't defend Magic well. That was my point.

Pippen couldn't stop Magic either. It was very very difficult nigh near impossible to defend Magic so this isn't an attack on MJ as you perceive it.

[3ba11]

Dude MJ dominating Magic overall doesn't mean he did a good job defending Magic. MJ won the matchup because he himself was GOAT level offensively not because he stopped Magic on D. I agree with what you're saying but you're attacking a strawman.

The point is Magic lit up MJ. Did he do it for a lot of points? Not really. Did he win the matchup? Of course not. But MJ still couldn't defend Magic well. That was my point.

Pippen couldn't stop Magic either. It was very very difficult nigh near impossible to defend Magic so this isn't an attack on MJ as you perceive it.


I feel like Paul Westphal in the 93' Finals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Sigsm8c3I)

No one "stops" Magic - no one said that MJ stopped Magic - I never said that MJ stopped Magic - Pippen didn't either - you're inventing the idea that I said MJ stopped Magic to argue against that, since your other points about an "impeccable LA offense" were shut down

I simply said that MJ didn't get "lit up", which he obviously didn't.. Magic's activity was completely muzzled and more strenuous than previous series while running a trash offense - the flipside was that MJ went off individually while running an impeccable offense.. So everything you said about Magic running an impeccable offense actually applied to Jordan... Jordan had the Bulls playing better than the 14' Spurs and he did this by dropping 30/11 without dominating the ball, thereby allowing maximum capacity for ball movement.

MJ has GOAT IQ to outplay Magic in this fashion despite a big deficit at the 3 thru 7 spots and his sidekick barely outscoring Worthy.. He gave Magic a lesson on why it isn't good to dominate the ball - Magic simply got away with it for so many years because he was ultimately the team's 2nd-best player to Kareem.. Once kareem was gone, Magic got instant lessons via massive upset to KJ in the 1990 playoffs - Magic learned that he couldn't have high-scoring ball-domination.... And then he got the aforementioned lesson by Jordan in 91'.

[Carbine]

Hobbled Worthy was not close to Pippen
It's just a blatant lie. Worthy scored some nice iso moves but overall he didn't come close to Pippens entire body of work in that series. It really really isn't close.

Pippen outscored him, severely out rebounded and assisted him and Pippens defensive impact (not shutting Magic down, but his team defensive impact) was so far above Worthys it's like comparing Duncan to Al Jefferson's defense.

[gbaLL]

and1 #0

[3ba11]

Hobbled Worthy was not close to Pippen
It's just a blatant lie. Worthy scored some nice iso moves but overall he didn't come close to Pippens entire body of work in that series. It really really isn't close.

Pippen outscored him, severely out rebounded and assisted him and Pippens defensive impact (not shutting Magic down, but his team defensive impact) was so far above Worthys it's like comparing Duncan to Al Jefferson's defense.


The fact that hobbled Worthy scored on Pippen at will and nearly matched Pippen's scoring makes my case that it was a low bar to match Pippen.. Other quick examples of low bars would be Horry's 95' Finals easily surpassing Pippen's highest gamescore for a Finals, or Kukoc being the starting PF in 1998 and easily leading Pippen in 4th quarter scoring for the 98' Playoffs (the real 2nd option and "closer" for MJ).

And the Lakers had the #5 defense compared to #7 for the Bulls, so Pippen's "team" defense matters little and defense isn't important when comparing individual players for the following obvious reason - a player that can carry a team offensively like Worthy can be surrounded by cheap defenders, thus yielding a better defensive team than Pippen, who must be surrounded by expensive scorers and spacers.. You can't surround Pippen with defenders because you'll have no offense - this is why the Bulls had weaker defensive teams than nearly every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat - it was Pippen's fault - Krause had to surround him with expensive scorers and spacers, so there was nothing left for rim protection or athletic guards to compliment MJ.. Bulls had skimp on rim protection and get by with unathletic guards like BJ and Paxson.

Btw, the rebounding numbers matter little because the Lakers had superior bigs that were destroying the Lakers' bigs, which hurts Worthy's rebounding numbers... Ditto the passing... (i.e. it would be dumb to compare the assists of a ball-dominator like Luka to an expert jumpshooter like Tatum - TEAM assists are actually more important and the expert jumpshooter or fundamental big will nearly always have more team assists)

So again, the only thing that really matters when comparing 2nd scoring options is SCORING and to a lesser extent efficiency.. Pippen barely beat a hobbled Worthy in these areas, while the Lakers dominated every other area such as the paint, boards, and the 3 thru 7 spots.

[ShawkFactory]

Worthy’s best game of the series came in game 2 when Pippen was on Magic (which was Magic’s worst game of the series).

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

[3ba11]

Worthy’s best game of the series came in game 2 when Pippen was on Magic (which was Magic’s worst game of the series).


Magic never had a good game in the series - he was a non-factor because MJ completely limited his activity and ability to run a good offense - the Lakers offense was complete dogshit in the 91' Finals, while MJ ran an impeccable offense.

MJ gave Magic a basketball lesson on achieving high scoring and goat chemistry simultaneously by not dominating the ball.. Magic needed this lesson again after his high-scoring ball-domination yielded historic upset the previous year to KJ.

Regarding Worthy - he scored on Pippen at will during the series - there is no stretch or sequence where Pippen forces a series of misses from Worthy.. Worthy is extremely consistent on Pippen, while scoring quickly and easily the entire series - it often looks like Pippen is offering zero resistance at all.. That's how easy Worthy makes it look - a HOBBLED worthy mind you.

Maybe you're forgetting that Pippen would sometimes outscore guards that were underperforming against MJ, but he was outscored by opposing SF's for the majority of series in his playoff career - he has no signature lock-downs of anyone as the primary defender.. There was never an instance where he locked a SF down in notable fashion like say, Wiggins locked down Tatum in the 22' Finals (while providing pippen-like offense).

[ShawkFactory]

Yep yep yep.

You can speak on this until you’re blue in the face (which, let’s face it…you already are), but all of those games are on YouTube. Outside of Jordan and Magic, Pippen was clearly the 3rd best player on the court. Like not even close.

He had a very high level of impact in many areas. It’s all right there to watch.

Your now decade+ ramblings aren’t changing anything.

[3ba11]

Yep yep yep.

You can speak on this until you’re blue in the face (which, let’s face it…you already are), but all of those games are on YouTube. Outside of Jordan and Magic, Pippen was clearly the 3rd best player on the court. Like not even close.

It’s all right there.


Pippen barely outscored a hobbled Worthy, while the Lakers had massive advantage at the 3 thru 7 spots - this is similar to what Dallas faced against the Celtics, except they lost and MJ was able to win with that.

And Pippen was still carried by Jordan, while prime Worthy could carry a team to the Finals like he did in 87', or win FMVP on a team with Magic/Kareem in 88' - completely dominating the Bad Boys and "taking over"

Pippen isn't on this level - Pippen took years to learn a role in a system that yielded 15-20 transition or system points - it's amazing that MJ won a Derrick Jones-type player that had low peak capability and wasn't on scouting reports, but we know that Jordan needed to be scoring and usage champ to win multiple titles with that crap (unprecedented)

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen barely outscored a hobbled Worthy and was still carried by Jordan, while prime Worthy could carry a team to the Finals like he did in 87', or win FMVP on a team with Magic/Kareem in 88' - completely dominating the Bad Boys and "taking over"

Pippen isn't on this level - Pippen took years to learn a role in a system that yielded 15-20 transition or system points - it's amazing that MJ won a Derrick Jones-type player with low peak capability that wasn't on scouting reports, but we know that Jordan needed to be scoring and usage champ to win multiple titles with that crap (unprecedented)

:cheers:

[3ba11]

:cheers:


you missed the edit:

Pippen barely outscored a hobbled Worthy .....

while the Lakers had massive advantage at the 3 thru 7 spots - this is similar to what Dallas faced against the Celtics (a close matchup at the 2nd option and massive deficit at 3 thru 7), except Luka lost with that, while MJ was able to win with it.. (by scoring more without dominating the ball or turning it over)

[SouBeachTalents]

you missed the edit:

Pippen barely outscored a hobbled Worthy .....

while the Lakers had massive advantage at the 3 thru 7 spots - this is similar to what Dallas faced against the Celtics (a close matchup at the 2nd option and massive deficit at 3 thru 7), except they lost and MJ was able to win with that.
He outscored Magic, just like he did Ewing, Isiah and nearly Barkley.

[ShawkFactory]

you missed the edit:

Pippen barely outscored a hobbled Worthy .....

while the Lakers had massive advantage at the 3 thru 7 spots - this is similar to what Dallas faced against the Celtics (a close matchup at the 2nd option and massive deficit at 3 thru 7), except Luka lost with that, while MJ was able to win with it.

Yea….

..the response would have been the same.

[3ba11]

He outscored Magic, just like he did Ewing, Isiah and nearly Barkley.


Larry Hughes averaged 22/6/5 and 1st team defense in 2005 before joining Lebron

Should I use this one-off the way you're using Pippen's only viable playoff run of his career?.. :confusedshrug:

Pippen had major chokes in every other year, such as the entire 88' and 89' Playoffs.... 90' ECF.. 92' ECSF (X-Man debacle).. 93' 1st Round (Dominique debacle - 15 on 33%)

93' Finals (0% from three, 59% from line, 46.9 TS)... 94' ECSF (outplayed by Ewing and goat choke with the "sit out" game)

and the entire 2nd three-peat (17.6 on 41%), or Houston and Portland debacles

yet you're citing a his only viable run - a complete one-off - and even that year you're like "look, pippen averaged 17.8 ppg - how could anyone not win with that", smh.. Pippen was just a weak offensive option because you couldn't iso him and you needed to get him dunks and flow points - he was a low-producing bricklayer that clogged the lanes for MJ and forced MJ to take over literally every game

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE





30-year myth busted - MJ guarded Magic for 70% of possessions in Games 2-5 and all of Game 1:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-04-2024/5G-_PH.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4T25pHu7Nc&t=09m19s

[Phoenix]

Only 4 pages... on a 4 day old 3ball thread? You're slacking, ISH.

[dankok8]

I feel like Paul Westphal in the 93' Finals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Sigsm8c3I)

No one "stops" Magic - no one said that MJ stopped Magic - I never said that MJ stopped Magic - Pippen didn't either - you're inventing the idea that I said MJ stopped Magic to argue against that, since your other points about an "impeccable LA offense" were shut down

I simply said that MJ didn't get "lit up", which he obviously didn't.. Magic's activity was completely muzzled and more strenuous than previous series while running a trash offense - the flipside was that MJ went off individually while running an impeccable offense.. So everything you said about Magic running an impeccable offense actually applied to Jordan... Jordan had the Bulls playing better than the 14' Spurs and he did this by dropping 30/11 without dominating the ball, thereby allowing maximum capacity for ball movement.

MJ has GOAT IQ to outplay Magic in this fashion despite a big deficit at the 3 thru 7 spots and his sidekick barely outscoring Worthy.. He gave Magic a lesson on why it isn't good to dominate the ball - Magic simply got away with it for so many years because he was ultimately the team's 2nd-best player to Kareem.. Once kareem was gone, Magic got instant lessons via massive upset to KJ in the 1990 playoffs - Magic learned that he couldn't have high-scoring ball-domination.... And then he got the aforementioned lesson by Jordan in 91'.

You never said MJ stopped Magic. Ok good then we're in agreement.

104.5 ORtg isn't trash offense against a defense as good as the Bulls.

[dankok8]

By the way I just realized we have Magic's ON-OFF data for the 1991 Finals as well.

Magic ON: 106.3 ORtg (+1.1 rORtg)
Magic OFF: 51.5 ORtg (-53.7 rORtg)
Overall: 104.5 ORtg (-0.7 rORtg)

Needless to say, the Lakers offense completely and utterly collapsed when Magic sat (51.5 ORtg yikes!). When Magic was in the game, they were respectable on offense.

For a good, unbiased breakdown of the series, check out this Twitter thread. Hoops is very good and I compared my tracking data with his so I can vouch for the accuracy as well.

https://x.com/historyofdahoop/status/1711161084064010515

[3ba11]

By the way I just realized we have Magic's ON-OFF data for the 1991 Finals as well.

Magic ON: 106.3 ORtg (+1.1 rORtg)
Magic OFF: 51.5 ORtg (-53.7 rORtg)
Overall: 104.5 ORtg (-0.7 rORtg)

Needless to say, the Lakers offense completely and utterly collapsed when Magic sat (51.5 ORtg yikes!). When Magic was in the game, they were respectable on offense.

For a good, unbiased breakdown of the series, check out this Twitter thread. Hoops is very good and I compared my tracking data with his so I can vouch for the accuracy as well.

https://x.com/historyofdahoop/status/1711161084064010515



League average ORtg

Regular Season...................... 107.9
Playoffs................................. 110.9
Magic's Lakers in Finals........... 106.3*

* with MJ hounding him for 80% of possessions


106 isn't respectable because it's literally far below the league-average in playoffs and regular season (see stats above)

the stats show that MJ completely limited Magic's activity in that series and made his numbers worse than the other series leading up to the Finals and worse than his overall regular season or playoff averages.

btw, every ball-dominant offense collapses without the ball-dominator because ball-dominators don't develop chemistry - they just run a style that gets personal stats at the expense of chemistry, so the team has no chemistry to play viably if they're out

[dankok8]

League average ORtg

Regular Season...................... 107.9
Playoffs................................. 110.9
Magic's Lakers in Finals........... 106.3*

* with MJ hounding him for 80% of possessions


106 isn't respectable because it's literally far below the league-average in playoffs and regular season (see stats above)

the stats show that MJ completely limited Magic's activity in that series and made his numbers worse than the other series leading up to the Finals and worse than his overall regular season or playoff averages.

btw, every ball-dominant offense collapses without the ball-dominator because ball-dominators don't develop chemistry - they just run a style that gets personal stats at the expense of chemistry, so when the team has no chemistry to play viably if they're out

But Magic wasn't facing an average defense. He was facing an elite Bulls defense.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

I saw this 1991 NBA Finals live, my first one ever.......

1991 MJ's agility, slipping thru defensive cracks, was never before seen again in later MJ years as he deliberately bulked up under "breakfast" club.

here, He was too fluid. almost liquidy in movements and ball placement.

I still watch 1991 finals here and there.......and I realize, he is 'placing' the ball instead of dribbling like a futbol soccer dribbler.

His dribbles and offensive ball movements here are like set up before the kill by a striker. The smoothness in so baffling at times, he is already at the rim.

"the move" is the perfect example. Look how he loads up, take off, stretches his ball dominant hand, then switches, realizes "oops, I am at the basket already, better get it up before they call TO". Reverse angle camera gives us the best idea of it all.

Some of the MJ passes here are so 'elite', he was literally competing with Magic in passing here. They were literally some bullets flying, either needled thru or violently penetrated in Horace's and other PFs direction at last second.

1991 MJ was definitely playing a game within a game.

Same here; watched it live. It was going on while I was graduating from high school. What a time to be alive! Seeing Jordan's comeback to force OT in game 2 with all the pressure in the world on them, to the "A spectacular play!" that made it 13 field goals in a row (a finals record that still stands). I know Chris Paul had 14 in a row in a early round series a couple years ago, but this was the finals.

What a GOAT. The distance between Mike & everyone else widens the further we dig deep into the stats.

[3ba11]

But Magic wasn't facing an average defense. He was facing an elite Bulls defense.


The Lakers had a better defense than the Bulls just like nearly every ECF and Finals opponent that the Bulls faced during the 1st three-peat, and facing a decent defense isn't an excuse to have vastly-below-average team offense - this is Magic Johnson we're talking about and you're letting him have a below-average offense against an opponent that doesn't even have a top 5 defense - and again, facing a top defense isn't an excuse for having a horrible team offense.

In addition to the 91' Pistons and Lakers having a better defense than the 91' Bulls, the 92' Knicks had a better defense and took the Bulls to 7 games, while the 92' Blazers had a better defense too.... So did the 93' Knicks (#1 defense), while the Suns had the #9 defense (#7 for Bulls).

Again, nearly every top opponent had a better defense than the bulls because the Bulls had no rim protection and vastly inferior bigs than most teams.. This showed in every series (and especially the Finals) when the Bulls were destroyed at the 3 thru 7 spots... The stats were posted in another thread that showed the Bulls having a bigger deficit at the 3 thru 7 spots during the 92' Finals than Luka faced this year vs Boston.

[dankok8]

The Lakers had a better defense than the Bulls just like nearly every ECF and Finals opponent that the Bulls faced during the 1st three-peat, and facing a decent defense isn't an excuse to have vastly-below-average team offense - this is Magic Johnson we're talking about and you're letting him have a below-average offense against an opponent that doesn't even have a top 5 defense - and again, facing a top defense isn't an excuse for having a horrible team offense.

In addition to the 91' Pistons and Lakers having a better defense than the 91' Bulls, the 92' Knicks had a better defense and took the Bulls to 7 games, while the 92' Blazers had a better defense too.... So did the 93' Knicks (#1 defense), while the Suns had the #9 defense (#7 for Bulls).

Again, nearly every top opponent had a better defense than the bulls because the Bulls had no rim protection and vastly inferior bigs than most teams.. This showed in every series (and especially the Finals) when the Bulls were destroyed at the 3 thru 7 spots... The stats were posted in another thread that showed the Bulls having a bigger deficit at the 3 thru 7 spots during the 92' Finals than Luka faced this year vs Boston.

Dude.. the Bulls weren't the best defense in the league but they were still much better than league average. You shouldn't expect the Lakers to be above league average facing a really good defensive team. Not to mention the Bulls consistently improved their defense in the playoffs. That's a trend with those teams.

[Carbine]

What a gift it must be for players like Byron Scott to play with Magic.

Play like absolute dog shit on offense in the NBA Finals? Magics fault. Sam Perkins shooting 40 percent? Magics fault.

Judging Magic by Otrg is illogical when a number of the players on the floor with him couldn't hit open shots that series anywhere close to what they typically would.

[3ba11]

What a gift it must be for players like Byron Scott to play with Magic.

Play like absolute dog shit on offense in the NBA Finals? Magics fault. Sam Perkins shooting 40 percent? Magics fault.

Judging Magic by Otrg is illogical when a number of the

players on the floor with him couldn't hit open shots that series anywhere close to what they typically would.


Ah c'mon, you know why the cast played poorly - ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't develop the great chemistry required for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Guys like Byron Scott and company play better with great ball movement, which is what the Lakers had when they had a fundamental big like Kareem.. Fundamental bigs like Kareem, Jokic or Duncan foster great ball movement, similar to expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ, Bird or Kobe (or even lesser versions like Tatum, Kawhi and Dirk)..

Otoh, high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka impose spot-up roles, so they lack chemistry and therefore require more help/talent - "more help" is the excuse for every loss because chemistry development is impossible with their skillset.

[Carbine]

It's not an excuse it just is what it is. Not everyone performs up to their individual standard every time they play.

Byron Scott played a championship caliber Portland team the week prior. Played a better defense if that makes a difference to you (it should considering you use dtrg to underplay how good Chicago's defense was)

Byron was shooting a ridiculous 60 percent from the field and damn near 55 from 3 pt land. He was excelling in his role and inexplicable had the worst series of his career in the finals. Same with Perkins who shot 58 percent against Portland a week prior.

They would tell you they didn't play well. Not because Magic had the ball in his hands giving them open looks.

[3ba11]

It's not an excuse it just is what it is. Not everyone performs up to their individual standard every time they play.

Byron Scott played a championship caliber Portland team the week prior. Played a better defense if that makes a difference to you (it should considering you use dtrg to underplay how good Chicago's defense was)

Byron was shooting a ridiculous 60 percent from the field and damn near 55 from 3 pt land. He was excelling in his role and inexplicable had the worst series of his career in the finals. Same with Perkins who shot 58 percent against Portland a week prior.

They would tell you they didn't play well. Not because Magic had the ball in his hands giving them open looks.


Yeah but opposing guards always played great but then wet the bed against MJ

Literally

Terry Porter WAS jordan in the 92' WCF to carry the Blazers to Finals but then wet the bed in Finals.. Ditto Magic, Stockton, Hornacek, Dumars, Isiah, Price, Harper, Nick Anderson - you name it - Jordan's onslaught wore out opposing guards defensively and left them less capacity for offense

[Carbine]

MJ didn't guard Byron much. So that's a pretty inaccurate assessment to make.

[3ba11]

MJ didn't guard Byron much. So that's a pretty inaccurate assessment to make.


Doesn't matter - Byron Scott, Terry Porter or Stockton are faced with an onslaught for the first time in the playoffs that they never faced before, such as double-teaming schemes that weren't required in previous series... This isn't insignificant because double-teaming kills a team's defensive rebounding as Jeff Van Gundy explains here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m12s) - this is why the Bulls always had such an edge on the offensive glass, so there are many aspects to facing the greatest scorer of all-time that wear down an individual defender and a team.. The extra effort on defense saps the player and team of their offensive capacity, hence the massive trend of opposing guards underperforming against MJ (but otherwise killing, especially in the immediately-preceding series)... Again, it's a massive trend that includes Magic, Stockton, Porter, Isiah, Dumars, Price, Harper, Porter, and many more - all these guys played like garbage nearly every time they faced MJ in the playoffs (some of these guys have many playoff appearances against MJ and might have a one-off of playing okay but otherwise played like trash every other time).