FRAUD DPOY. Someone went back to watch 88 Jordan and confirmed what the article said

[1987_Lakers]

about inflated steals/blocks. Shoutout to Phoenix for bringing this to my attention.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2kOti016U

[1987_Lakers]

He went back to watch 5 more games along with the games that were in the article.

His conclusion.

MJ's box score steals: 47 steals
His count (real steals): 20 steals

MJ's box score blocks: 33 blocks
His count (real blocks): 28 blocks

[gengiskhan]

He went back to watch 5 more games along with the games that were in the article.

His conclusion.

MJ's box score steals: 47 steals
His count (real steals): 20 steals

MJ's box score blocks: 33 blocks
His count (real blocks): 28 blocks

You failed to mention!

YT guy created TWO Categories. It never ever works that way.

YT guy must make his point. Either its a "block" or "steal" even on 280p resolution.

Definitive Block here, probable steal there is a 'gray' area. stockskeepers saw it live. they will credit either category definitely. or not.

Also, looking forward to 10 AWAY games of 1988 season where AWAY stockskeeper might have deliberately undercounted MJ steals and blocks.

very important they get equalized. On the AWAY games, YT guy must look at all ZERO steals, ZERO blocks MJ games against Divisional rivals PISTONS, CAVS, HAWKS and CELTICS. There could be some serious UNDERcooking of MJ stats might be going on.

[gengiskhan]

1988 MJ AWAY games in Questions!


4/24/88: 1 Block, 1 Steal @ Atlanta
2/12/88: 0 Block ,0 Steal @ Milwaukee

there are tons of AWAY games when MJ is credited 0,1 and 1,0 and 1,1. most of it AWAY.

Moncrief, Robertson, DJ and Cooper were probably being helped out here against MJ's relentless defensive assault.

I like to see 10 AWAY games so that we have a 'parity'

[3ba11]

.
The video shows that blocks were deflated by the exact amount that steals were inflated:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2024/U4QENB.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2024/8b0A6a.gif


So it's obvious that various blocks were credited as steals, possibly due to a rule where certain types of blocks outside the paint were recorded as steals - the videomaker acknowledges this possibility in the comment section.

We can't know without play-by-play data because there's no way to know if a deflection was missed entirely or credited to someone, so the entire exercise is meaningless and amounts to fraud.

This video claimed to have 28 "definitive" blocks and 20 more that were possibilities, so that's an absurd amount of variance, which is why the play-by-play data is mandatory..

The only person to do an analysis of Jordan's steals with play-by-play data is "Uncut Hoops", who did a video showing a 7-game sample of Jordan's 97' steals and they were all accurate

[Carbine]

This changes everything........

[3ba11]

This changes everything........


it shows that scorekeepers were recording blocks as steals for Jordan and others as the deflation of blocks exactly matched the inflation of steals - pretty eye-opening numbers as shown above..

someone in the comments said that the early 90's had a rule where certain types of blocks outside the paint were recorded as steals and the videomaker agreed that this could be possible - it's certainly far more plausible than league-wide cheating by record-keepers..

we could easily verify this with play-by-play data and this is the reason this type of analysis amounts to fraud without the play-by-play - too many incorrect conclusions are arrived at from the data in the absence of play-by-play. to know which plays to dispute.. They don't even know if a deflection was missed entirely or credited to a player.

the only guy that did an analysis WITH play-by-play data is "Uncut Hoops", who did a 7-game sample of Jordan's steals in 1997 (the first year where play-by-play was available).. 19 of the 20 steals in the 7-game sample were 100% accurate with only 1 disputable steal... I'm sure it was quick and easy to do this analysis since the play-by-play data will show exactly where the steals are in the game so the person can fast-forward straight there rather than watch the entire game at 5x speed or something (allegedly watch)

[1987_Lakers]

it shows that scorekeepers were recording blocks as steals for Jordan

This isn't the case at all. :oldlol:

In a game vs Denver, the guy in the video counted 4 blocks which is what the box score read. But he only counted 2 steals while the box score had it at 6 steals.

Your boy just got exposed. Deal with it.

[1987_Lakers]

That Atlanta game from February of '88 is disgusting. Box score had MJ with 5 steals while the guy in the vid had him at 0. :oldlol:


And in that same game, you see MJ's teammate get a clear steal, but that same teammate had 0 steals in the box score. They gave it to MJ.

16:30 mark of the vid.

[Axe]

Looks like we aren't done with the 80s/90s, after all. :ohwell:

[SATAN]

lol

One of the MJ stans in the comments said:


Jordan probably deserves more credit for his defense than any of the GOATs.

Imagine saying this on a video that's exposing his defensive numbers as being bs. You can't make this shit up. :facepalm

[8Ball]

about inflated steals/blocks. Shoutout to Phoenix for bringing this to my attention.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2kOti016U

I'm so ****ing disappointed....


Spending years arguing with Jordan tards, and now I find out Jordan's stats are inflated as **** by home scorekeepers.


I will never ever consider the DPOY award won by Jordan as anything other than a gigantic *:

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1464295153ra/19224214.gif

[8Ball]

https://i.ibb.co/tQ9rYfr/Screenshot-2024-07-10-at-11-20-20-PM.png



Haberstroh is a god damn legend.


This is pulitzer prize worthy investigative journalism.


Imagine single handedly exposing Jordan's stats as fraudulent. It's only a matter of time before someone does all 41 home games of 1988.

[Carbine]

What does it matter?

MJ having a DPOY is a minor footnote in his career. His GOAT candidacy is based entirely around winning six titles, 6 FMVPs, 5 regular season MVPs, the scoring titles, playing his best in the playoffs the vast majority of the time.

His steals are such a minor thing in his goat case that it's a nothing burger. It really really really is a nothing burger.

Take away half the steals for his career. His goat case remains unchanged.

[iamgine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x63V0I5T-zA

[SATAN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x63V0I5T-zA

There isn't 10 steals in that clip. Wtf?

Also LOL@that pathetic defense against him.

(Kendall Gill had an 11 steal triple double game btw...)

[Bawkish]

Oh boy, off-season does this to everyone here

Fraud DPOY, Bronny the GOAT 55th pick, etc

[1987_Lakers]

I'm so ****ing disappointed....


Spending years arguing with Jordan tards, and now I find out Jordan's stats are inflated as **** by home scorekeepers.


I will never ever consider the DPOY award won by Jordan as anything other than a gigantic *:

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1464295153ra/19224214.gif

:oldlol:

[3ba11]

:oldlol:


it's funny because the stats that the videomaker recorded from his eye test show that Jordan's blocks were massively deflated and he probably averaged 2.5 blocks in 1988

you realize that right? ... the videomaker acknowledges this fact and shows the stats that show Jordan's blocks were just as deflated as his steals were inflated (posted on page 1 itt)

So 2.5 blocks and 2.5 steals from a SG is the GOAT defender, which is why he got DPOY in 88' and should've gotten it over bench player Michael Cooper in 87', who averaged 1.0 steals and 0.5 blocks.. Accordingly, these vids are very informative and keep providing more evidence of how underrated MJ is

[1987_Lakers]

it's funny because the stats that the videomaker recorded from his eye test show that Jordan's blocks were massively deflated and he probably averaged 2.5 blocks in 1988

you realize that right?

WRONG. In the games he watched, he counted 28 blocks while the box score had it at 33. You are counting his "possible" blocks, and if you watched the entire vid, he is extremely generous when he is showing "possible" blocks or steals.

One thing we do know is that the steals have been exposed to be fake. The guy in the video even said the article was being generous to MJ, because the vid in the OP counted LESS steals than the article did.

[3ba11]

WRONG. In the games he watched, he counted 28 blocks while the box score had it at 33. You are counting his "possible" blocks, and if you watched the entire vid, he is extremely generous when he is showing "possible" blocks or steals.

One thing we do know is that the steals have been exposed to be fake. The guy in the video even said the article was being generous to MJ, because the vid in the OP counted LESS steals than the article did.


he said there were 20 more plays that could've been blocks, which allowed the total possible blocks to match the total possible steals..

and the gaps between box score blocks and possible blocks matched the gap in steals, aka the deflation of blocks matched the inflation of steals

but the issue is that 20 more plays which could've been blocks shows the massive variance and it's likely he missed a few - that's why these analysis cannot be done without play-by-play data - all these analysis are garbage even though this latest one proves that MJ is the goat defender (2.5 blocks and 2.5 steals in 1988 season - based on this guy's eye test of 4 games, lol, but let's go with it)

[1987_Lakers]

Looks like 3ball is now starting to realize that the steals were indeed faked and is now trying to justify it by saying the "possible" blocks make up for it. He is actually trying to convince himself that MJ had as many blocks in '88 as Hakeem did.

This is sad to see.

[3ba11]

Looks like 3ball is now starting to realize that the steals were indeed faked and is now trying to justify it by saying the "possible" blocks make up for it. He is actually trying to convince himself that MJ had as many blocks in '88 as Hakeem did.

This is sad to see.


these aren't my numbers - these are HIS numbers where the total possible blocks are 48 compared to the boxscore of 33 - that's a deflation of 15, which equals the steals inflation when we compare the same categories (boxscore steals are 15 greater than the total possible steals)..

So 2 things are clear - Jordan's blocks were massively deflated just like the steals were inflated, and it appears these blocks may have been recorded as steals since the blocks deflation exactly equals the steals inflation.

So this vid is debunked just like Haberhoe's was - play-by-play data is required to do these analysis and anything else is literally fraud.. Just the fact that the guy counted 20 additional "possible blocks" shows how bs the analysis is and how much play-by-play data is required

[1987_Lakers]

So 2 things are clear - Jordan's blocks were massively deflated just like the steals were inflated, and it appears these blocks may have been recorded as steals since the blocks deflation exactly equals the steals inflation.

Nope. Dude counted less blocks than the actual box score and he counted less steals than the actual box score.

He concluded that the blocks were overall pretty accurate when you look at the box score, but the steals were fabricated.

[1987_Lakers]

That Atlanta game from February of '88 is disgusting. Box score had MJ with 5 steals while the guy in the vid had him at 0. :oldlol:


And in that same game, you see MJ's teammate get a clear steal, but that same teammate had 0 steals in the box score. They gave it to MJ.

16:30 mark of the vid.

The teammate who got the steal is Mike Brown, but the box score didn't give him his steal. More proof that fake steals were awarded to MJ.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198802150CHI.html

[3ba11]

Nope. Dude counted less blocks than the actual box score and he counted less steals than the actual box score.

He concluded that the blocks were overall pretty accurate when you look at the box score, but the steals were fabricated.


When we compare the steals inflation of "boxscore steals - total possible steals", we see that this steals inflation exactly matches the blocks deflation of "total possible blocks - boxscore blocks".

It's clear as day - but regardless of whether scorekeepers were recording blocks as steals as the numbers indicate, we know the blocks were massively deflated, which would put MJ at 2.3 to 2.7 blocks were game, aka the goat defender.

Carry on

[3ba11]

The teammate who got the steal is Mike Brown, but the box score didn't give him his steal. More proof that fake steals were awarded to MJ.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198802150CHI.html


Here's that play in slow-motion GIF, and you can see that MJ's right hand gets in there:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2024/zn96it.gif


so this falls in the category of "possible steal"

everyone is just blind and didn't slow it down like I did in the GIF above, which shows that mj's right hand could absolutely have been in there.

This is why play-by-play data is required because if Mike Brown had a 1 steal recorded in the boxscore, no one would have any way of knowing if this deflection was it or if it was another unseen deflection that the scorekeepers picked up on another play

And again, just in the 4 games, there were TWENTY POSSIBLE ADDITIONAL BLOCKS - TWENTY SUBJECTIVE INSTANCES - again play-by-play data is MANDATORY or these analysis are all fraud

[1987_Lakers]

Here's that play in slow-motion GIF, and you can see that MJ's right hand gets in there:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2024/zn96it.gif


so this falls in the category of "possible steal"

everyone is just blind and didn't slow it down like I did in the GIF above, which shows that mj's right hand could absolutely have been in there.

This is why play-by-play data is required because if Mike Brown had a 1 steal recorded in the boxscore, no one would have any way of knowing if this deflection was it or if it was another unseen deflection that the scorekeepers picked up on another play

And again, just in the 4 games, there were TWENTY POSSIBLE ADDITIONAL BLOCKS - TWENTY SUBJECTIVE INSTANCES - again play-by-play data is MANDATORY or these analysis are all fraud

:roll: Get some glasses. MJ doesn't touch the ball until his teammate deflects it.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2024/21yvSq.gif




:roll: Get some glasses. MJ doesn't touch the ball until his teammate deflects it.


it's similar to the hubert davis foul (which I freeze-framed above) - when i originally put the foul in slow-motion that showed pippen hacking hubert's forearm, and you guys claim to see nothing, just like you're claiming to not see MJ's right arm clearly get in there and possibly touch the ball - do I need to freeze frame and enlarge the picture to show MJ's right arm in there?

Regardless, there's 2 options - either MJ averaged 2.5 blocks and 2.5 steals in 88' as the video shows, or he averaged 1.6 and 3.2 steals and the video is bs.. I'm good with either option

[And1AllDay]

Looks like we aren't done with the 80s/90s, after all. :ohwell:

bingo dynamo

[And1AllDay]

I'm so ****ing disappointed....


Spending years arguing with Jordan tards, and now I find out Jordan's stats are inflated as **** by home scorekeepers.


I will never ever consider the DPOY award won by Jordan as anything other than a gigantic *:

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1464295153ra/19224214.gif

this