Lebron has low ring quality by facing babies in 2012 and being 2nd option in 2020

[3ba11]

Lebron gets a pass for being 22 in 2007,so why would he get props for beating babies in 2012?

of course his 2020 ring was 2nd option ring because AD led the scoring for regular season and playoffs - AD led the entire NBA in playoff scoring.

[plowking]

Jordan's ring quality is non existent.

His best rings are against a guy who even after joining Shaq, Kobe and Payton couldn't win.
The other guy who won an MVP couldn't win a ring with the likes of Dr J and Moses, then even after when going to Hakeem and Clyde.

[warriorfan]

Lebron gets a pass for being 22 in 2007,so why would he get props for beating babies in 2012?

of course his 2020 ring was 2nd option ring because AD led the scoring for regular season and playoffs - AD led the entire NBA in playoff scoring.

lebron stan’s simply can’t stay consistent with their criteria…its not necessarily their fault, lebron is fundamentally a fraud so in order to prop him up they have to shift goalposts constantly,

[3ba11]

Jordan's ring quality is non existent.

His best rings are against a guy who even after joining Shaq, Kobe and Payton couldn't win.
The other guy who won an MVP couldn't win a ring with the likes of Dr J and Moses, then even after when going to Hakeem and Clyde.


Lebron lost to 1-star teams like Mavs, Magic or Nugs, so you can't bring up weak comp - Jordan never lost to any 1-star teams and Jordan beat the kind of long-standing organic juggernauts with great chemistry that Lebron loses to.. Lebron's talent-based approach, aka all-star team strategy with weak chemistry loses to great chemistry and long-standing organic juggernauts, while MJ is 6/6 against this.. MJ is 6/6 against long-standing organic juggernauts because he has the skillset to develop great chemistry himself and therefore have his own organic juggernaut.. otoh, Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so he cannot develop the great chemistry required for a great-performing cast, aka great team/dynasty

[8Ball]

Still trying to find a Jordan finals opponent that is better than the 2012 OKC Thunder. Doesn't exist.


2012 OKC Thunder beats every single Jordan finals opponent team. Every single one.

[plowking]

Still trying to find a Jordan finals opponent that is better than the 2012 OKC Thunder. Doesn't exist.


2012 OKC Thunder beats every single Jordan finals opponent team. Every single one.

As do the Spurs, and Warriors.

[tpols]

Still trying to find a Jordan finals opponent that is better than the 2012 OKC Thunder. Doesn't exist.


2012 OKC Thunder beats every single Jordan finals opponent team. Every single one.


The veteran star studded Jazz and Suns were clearly way better than young Durant and westbrick and a choking young Harden. The Sonics and Blazers better by a decent amount as well, and the Lakers honestly too with prime veteran Magic. Literally all of his Finals opponents were better lmao.

[And1AllDay]

:oldlol:

we gott'm spinning now

what was mikeys best ring? :roll:

[ImKobe]

:oldlol:

we gott'm spinning now

what was mikeys best ring? :roll:

There's 6 of them thangs to choose from. Personally, I like the '91 run the most. 15 - 2 and he did everything: scoring 31 ppg on 60%TS while averaging 8.4 assists to just 2.5 TOs & great STL & BLK numbers. They lost by 2 pts in those 2 losses in the POs. It was one of the most dominant title runs in NBA history and he did it vs. prime Ewing, Barkley & Magic & sweeping the defending champs (even though Zeke was not quite himself) was no small feat either.

That '91 Bulls run is ranked way up there by most ppl (just behind the '01 LAL & '17 GSW) and MJ did it without an All-Star teammate.

[ShawkFactory]

The veteran star studded Jazz and Suns were clearly way better than young Durant and westbrick and a choking young Harden. The Sonics and Blazers better by a decent amount as well, and the Lakers honestly too with prime veteran Magic. Literally all of his Finals opponents were better lmao.

The Sonics and Blazers were the two best teams they played imo

[John8204]

In the year Lebron beat "babies" didn't he also beat 7 of the 76 greatest players of all-time

[3ba11]

Lebron and AD had the worst team in the league with Westbrick - it's impossible to win with westbrick, so lebron beat an opponent in 2012 that wasn't capable of winning - the worst comp ever

I remember when baby Kobe airballed 4 shots in 97' - this was superior to baby Westbrick that Lebron beat.

[eliteballer]

Not to mention one was a lockout shortened season and another was the bubble...oh and Steroids and Super Teams.

[dankok8]

2012 Thunder are solid. Not too weak, not too strong.

2013 Spurs are definitely on the stronger side. In fact I'd say they were Lebron's toughest opponent. The metrics consider them one of the best teams not to win the Finals.

2016 Warriors on the stronger side but they weren't anywhere close to an all-time caliber team they were in the regular season due to a combination of injuries, fatigue etc. They were nowhere close to their best in that series yet every day a horde of Lebron fans pretend otherwise and ignore context.

2020 Heat are probably the worst team ever to play in the Finals considering their injuries.

All in all, Lebron's four rings came against more or less standard Finals competition. Two strong teams (2013 Spurs, 2016 Warriors), one average team (2012 Thunder) and one really weak team (2020 Heat).

[ILLsmak]

The veteran star studded Jazz and Suns were clearly way better than young Durant and westbrick and a choking young Harden. The Sonics and Blazers better by a decent amount as well, and the Lakers honestly too with prime veteran Magic. Literally all of his Finals opponents were better lmao.

Harden is a choker, but people underrate how ****ing trash WB was as a winning player regardless. He might be a floor raiser, but he's not a championship winner. I get people like his motor and his all out attitude, but I'd prefer him be a player who was like 6'8 and didn't have the ball in his hands. Then he would be amazing. As your PG, it's absolutely nuts to think about winning. He wouldn't even pass off to KD haha.

I like his highlights, and I think it's cool what he did with the triple doubles, but I think he could make just about any team lose if he was the starting PG.

James Harden is a clown, too, but he's a talent that fits into the NBA. That Thunder team should have been better, but like I said, people forget how cancerous WB is, even tho they should know now by how ****ing ass he was. He's still playing the same without the talent. He has no self awareness. The worst thing for a PG.

-Smak

[3ba11]

The Sonics and Blazers were the two best teams they played imo


Those were the most talented opponents

But the most long-standing organic juggernaut was Utah

A lot of people may not realize that the 90's West consisted of long-standing organic teams that took turns having their banner year and making the Finals - it was the conference of goat parity and each team that MJ faced was a battle-worn, organic juggernaut having their banner year with everything going for them - they were a freight train, until they ran into MJ.. They were also the kind of long-standing organic teams that beat Lebron like the Nugs, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs or Magic.

Keep in mind that Luka just lost to Tatum/Brown, who are inferior to basically every duo that MJ faced in the Finals (6/6)

[8Ball]

As do the Spurs, and Warriors.

The Warriors 2016 and the Spurs 2013 would beat every single Jordan Finals team. All of them.

[8Ball]

There's 6 of them thangs to choose from. Personally, I like the '91 run the most. 15 - 2 and he did everything: scoring 31 ppg on 60%TS while averaging 8.4 assists to just 2.5 TOs & great STL & BLK numbers. They lost by 2 pts in those 2 losses in the POs. It was one of the most dominant title runs in NBA history and he did it vs. prime Ewing, Barkley & Magic & sweeping the defending champs (even though Zeke was not quite himself) was no small feat either.

That '91 Bulls run is ranked way up there by most ppl (just behind the '01 LAL & '17 GSW) and MJ did it without an All-Star teammate.

1991 finals opponent is nothing to write home about. A bit like the 2020 Heat.

[ShawkFactory]

2012 Thunder are solid. Not too weak, not too strong.

2013 Spurs are definitely on the stronger side. In fact I'd say they were Lebron's toughest opponent. The metrics consider them one of the best teams not to win the Finals.

2016 Warriors on the stronger side but they weren't anywhere close to an all-time caliber team they were in the regular season due to a combination of injuries, fatigue etc. They were nowhere close to their best in that series yet every day a horde of Lebron fans pretend otherwise and ignore context.

2020 Heat are probably the worst team ever to play in the Finals considering their injuries.

All in all, Lebron's four rings came against more or less standard Finals competition. Two strong teams (2013 Spurs, 2016 Warriors), one average team (2012 Thunder) and one really weak team (2020 Heat).

I think that’s a pretty fair assessment. In a vacuum the Thunder weren’t ready but they WERE extremely hot at the time. The backdoor sweep of a Spurs team that I thought was very very good was shocking.

In fact I don’t think the Spurs has lost a game in the playoffs up to that point.

[3ba11]

2012 Thunder are solid. Not too weak, not too strong.

2013 Spurs are definitely on the stronger side. In fact I'd say they were Lebron's toughest opponent. The metrics consider them one of the best teams not to win the Finals.

2016 Warriors on the stronger side but they weren't anywhere close to an all-time caliber team they were in the regular season due to a combination of injuries, fatigue etc. They were nowhere close to their best in that series yet every day a horde of Lebron fans pretend otherwise and ignore context.

2020 Heat are probably the worst team ever to play in the Finals considering their injuries.

All in all, Lebron's four rings came against more or less standard Finals competition. Two strong teams (2013 Spurs, 2016 Warriors), one average team (2012 Thunder) and one really weak team (2020 Heat).


Wade/Lebron/Bosh is supposed to be far better than all the opponents they faced but instead we're forced to rank their "comp" to essentially explain why they didn't win.. No one ranks the "comp" of winners like Kobe, Curry, MJ, Bird, Magic - everyone assumed that it was the NBA and "comp" wasn't an issue, so "comp" wasn't a consideration until LeLoser came along and needed an excuse for his lottery record on the championship level.

[tpols]

The 2013 spurs are probably the most overrated team by far though. Their leading scorer and best player was an old Tony Parker or old Tim Duncan. Neither were anything close to superstars at that point.

People forget, but the biggest reason the Spurs almost upset Miami in 6 was Danny Green. He broke the all time Finals 3pt record before the series even went to 7.


https://youtu.be/j3JSWmM8F9E?si=SqwN3YEVv3cAVAtM

And he never did anything like that in his playoff career before or after. So it was a fluke that made the Spurs competitive.

[ShawkFactory]

The 2013 spurs are probably the most overrated team by far though. Their leading scorer and best player was an old Tony Parker or old Tim Duncan. Neither were anything close to superstars at that point.

People forget, but the biggest reason the Spurs almost upset Miami in 6 was Danny Green. He broke the all time Finals 3pt record before the series even went to 7.


https://youtu.be/j3JSWmM8F9E?si=SqwN3YEVv3cAVAtM

And he never did anything like that in his playoff career before or after. So it was a fluke that made the Spurs competitive.

The 2013 Spurs were an excellent basketball team. Parker was literally 30 years old. Far from “old”. He was an all star and second team all-NBA.

Duncan was first team all NBA. Manu was still very good. Plus excellent role players who bought into the system.

They had an elite level SRS regular season, on par with many championship teams much less finals ones. They romped through the west too.

Were they the best finals or playoff team a great player has gotten through? Well…no. But they were a very very good team and would have been champions in a lot of years.

[3ba11]

The 2013 Spurs were an excellent basketball team. Parker was literally 30 years old. Far from “old”. He was an all star and second team all-NBA.

Duncan was first team all NBA. Manu was still very good. Plus excellent role players who bought into the system.

They had an elite level SRS regular season, on par with many championship teams much less finals ones. They romped through the west too.

Were they the best finals or playoff team a great player has gotten through? Well…no. But they were a very very good team and would have been champions in a lot of years.


The 2013 Spurs had 1 franchise player compared to 3 for the Heat, which equals a super-team.. The Heat had the only super-team in the league from 2011-2016, which is why they were preseason favorite each year.

In addition to 3 franchise players, the Heat added Ray Allen, which provided Lebron with the all-star spacing that his stiff-arm needs to win 60 games & MVP (just like 2009)..

Unlike expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs, ball-dominators like Lebron need extra spacing for their drive-heavy games and also need all-time scoring help since they can't carry the scoring load vs top teams - they lack sufficient brand of ball at high-scoring levels to beat top teams (too ball-dominant).

The stats on this are clear - Lebron never carried weak help over top teams (never beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick) and he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on the championship level).

[red1]

spurs thunder and warriors were all great competition


doesnt matter if okc were young, they were very very talented and destroyed the west before they broke up


young harden ibaka westbrook and kd is a great team.

[red1]

The 2013 Spurs were an excellent basketball team. Parker was literally 30 years old. Far from “old”. He was an all star and second team all-NBA.

Duncan was first team all NBA. Manu was still very good. Plus excellent role players who bought into the system.

They had an elite level SRS regular season, on par with many championship teams much less finals ones. They romped through the west too.

Were they the best finals or playoff team a great player has gotten through? Well…no. But they were a very very good team and would have been champions in a lot of years.

exactly


they destroyed the league the next year


the old argument doesnt hold up anymore when the heat were older and spurs had young talent like kawhi, mills, diaw, and green to add to their big three

[dankok8]

The 2013 Spurs were definitely a strong team. rNet actually has them as the best team to lose in the NBA Finals. Old or young shouldn't be how teams are measured. They were a cohesive and well balanced unit that played better than the sum of their parts.

They do get a penalty for facing weaker than usual opponents in the West that year though. #1 seed OKC and #4 seed Clippers both got derailed by injuries so the #2 Spurs faced #7 Lakers (minus Kobe), #6 Warriors and then the #5 Grizzlies to get to the Finals. Then they lost to an average level champion in the 2013 Heat in the Finals. So all in all, Spurs were definitely a strong finalist but not as strong as the metrics say.

One general problem with elevating Lebron's finals opponents to very high levels is that you have to reconcile with the fact that those very opponents lost to Lebron's teams in the finals, none of whom are all time great teams. None of 2012 Heat, 2013 Heat, 2016 Cavs or 2020 Lakers are time great teams themselves so how can the opponents they beat be all time great teams?

[8Ball]

The 2013 Spurs were definitely a strong team. rNet actually has them as the best team to lose in the NBA Finals. Old or young shouldn't be how teams are measured. They were a cohesive and well balanced unit that played better than the sum of their parts.

They do get a penalty for facing weaker than usual opponents in the West that year though. #1 seed OKC and #4 seed Clippers both got derailed by injuries so the #2 Spurs faced #7 Lakers (minus Kobe), #6 Warriors and then the #5 Grizzlies to get to the Finals. Then they lost to an average level champion in the 2013 Heat in the Finals. So all in all, Spurs were definitely a strong finalist but not as strong as the metrics say.

One general problem with elevating Lebron's finals opponents to very high levels is that you have to reconcile with the fact that those very opponents lost to Lebron's teams in the finals, none of whom are all time great teams. None of 2012 Heat, 2013 Heat, 2016 Cavs or 2020 Lakers are time great teams themselves so how can the opponents they beat be all time great teams?

Because LeBron turned on GOAT mode and delivered the championship.


What Bron did in 2016 Finals is something Jordan would never be able to replicate, ever.

[dankok8]

Because LeBron turned on GOAT mode and delivered the championship.

What Bron did in 2016 Finals is something Jordan would never be able to replicate, ever.

Why not? Jordan averaged an efficient 44/6/6 on the GOAT Celtics which is a better individual series than anything Lebron did.

You're the guy who said that the 2013 Spurs and 2016 Warriors would beat every one of the Bulls' dynastic teams. That's a retarded take.

[RRR3]

The 2013 Heat are an all time great team pretty ridiculous to say they’re not especially you literally JUST said the 2013 Spurs are the best team to lose in the finals.

They won 66 games (a record winning streak), had peak LeBron James and 2 other HOFers with great role players and best an elite Spurs team. Idk what more you want.

[gbaLL]

$kater$
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/1e/9a/4a/1e9a4aeae4fc18c3d2dbb32a8613ae16.jpg

[dankok8]

The 2013 Heat are an all time great team pretty ridiculous to say they’re not especially you literally JUST said the 2013 Spurs are the best team to lose in the finals.

rNet says the Spurs are the best team to lose in the Finals but they did face a pretty weak group of opponents in the West that year. Dodged all the top seeds/favorites like OKC and Clippers. So I think just calling them a strong opponent is fair. Strongest is really pushing it considering the context.

You won't find any all time team lists with 2013 Heat near the top. They are an average level champion.

[RRR3]

Ah yes I forgot about Schrodinger’s LeBron: he had the most stacked team ever but they actually weren’t that good.

[dankok8]

Ah yes I forgot about Schrodinger’s LeBron: he had the most stacked team ever but they actually weren’t that good.

I never said the 2013 Heat were most the stacked team ever or mentioned how stacked they were at all.

[RRR3]

I never said the 2013 Heat were most the stacked team ever or mentioned how stacked they were at all.
So LeBron won with a mediocre (for a finals team) roster? :bowdown:

[Real14]

Still trying to find a Jordan finals opponent that is better than the 2012 OKC Thunder. Doesn't exist.


2012 OKC Thunder beats every single Jordan finals opponent team. Every single one.

Get off that crack man

[8Ball]

Why not? Jordan averaged an efficient 44/6/6 on the GOAT Celtics which is a better individual series than anything Lebron did.

You're the guy who said that the 2013 Spurs and 2016 Warriors would beat every one of the Bulls' dynastic teams. That's a retarded take.

Jordan is never doing this ever:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlPvfRQaUAA5E5N.jpg:large

[8Ball]

So LeBron won with a mediocre (for a finals team) roster? :bowdown:

Yes, the 2013 Heat were mediocre as ****.

Bosh had zero good games and scored 0 points in game 7.

Wade could barely string together 2 games in a row in that finals.

[RRR3]

Yes, the 2013 Heat were mediocre as ****.

Bosh had zero good games and scored 0 points in game 7.

Wade could barely string together 2 games in a row in that finals.
Wade played injured the entire playoffs. If he had been healthy he would have performed great like he always did in the playoffs and the Heat don't have any trouble with the Spurs. People really don't remember Wade was badly hurt that run, he was even getting his knee drained iirc. So while Wade was really bad that playoff run it wasn't his fault. Hard to play on one knee.

[8Ball]

2013 Heat were good defensively, that's about it.


Wade had 2 good games in the finals, I correct myself and say Bosh had 1 good game only.

[dankok8]

Jordan is never doing this ever:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlPvfRQaUAA5E5N.jpg:large

Prime Jordan averaged more points, similar assists, more steals, and similar blocks as Lebron. Jordan only trails Lebron in rebounds, specifically defensive rebounds, and so he would probably lead in four categories instead of all five while scoring way more.

[8Ball]

Prime Jordan averaged more points, similar assists, more steals, and similar blocks as Lebron. Jordan only trails Lebron in rebounds, specifically defensive rebounds, and so he would probably lead in four categories instead of all five while scoring way more.

Against whom? A 73 win historical team or some random crappy finals team that nobody remembers.

[dankok8]

Against whom? A 73 win historical team or some random crappy finals team that nobody remembers.

That team won 73 games but they were pedestrian in the playoffs after the first round. If we take just playoff games after Curry came back from injury which was Game 4 vs. Blazers, they posted under +6 rNet. Even average title teams in the last 40 years are +8 rNet or better in the playoffs.


2016 Warriors

Regular Season: +10.7 Net (+8.1 rORtg, -2.6 rDRtg)

R1 vs. Rockets: +19.4 rNet (+4.5 rORtg, -14.9 rDRtg)
WCSF vs. Blazers: +5.2 rNet (+9.3 rORtg, +4.1 rDRtg)
ECF vs. Thunder: +6.5 rNet (+2.2 rORtg, -4.3 rDRtg)
Finals vs. Cavaliers: +5.8 rNet (+4.0 rORtg, -1.8 rDRtg)

Postseason: +8.7 rNet (+4.2 rORtg, -4.5 rDRtg)

[RRR3]

Against whom? A 73 win historical team or some random crappy finals team that nobody remembers.
:oldlol:

[dankok8]

Keep trolling guys. 2016 Warriors played nothing like an elite team in the playoffs.

[RRR3]

Keep trolling guys. 2016 Warriors played nothing like an elite team in the playoffs.
Typing through the tears.

[sdot_thadon]

Prime Jordan averaged more points, similar assists, more steals, and similar blocks as Lebron. Jordan only trails Lebron in rebounds, specifically defensive rebounds, and so he would probably lead in four categories instead of all five while scoring way more.

While discounting the goat level defensive job Lebron did that finals. The graphic or the highlights wont show you his insane defensive metrics that series that got better and stingier as the series went on. It was literally the all around player masterpiece of a series. Mj never did anything like it and that's OK. Lebron never averaged 40 for a finals either. Different strokes.

[dankok8]

While discounting the goat level defensive job Lebron did that finals. The graphic or the highlights wont show you his insane defensive metrics that series that got better and stingier as the series went on. It was literally the all around player masterpiece of a series. Mj never did anything like it and that's OK. Lebron never averaged 40 for a finals either. Different strokes.

He was very good defensively but GOAT level is a huge exaggeration. That GOAT epithet on defense should only be used for elite defensive bigs like Russell, Hakeem, Duncan etc. Lebron (nor Jordan) ever touched any of those guys in impact defensively. Not bloody close.

[Manny98]

3 MVP OKC
Popovich Spurs Dynasty with 4 hofs
73 win Warriors
Bubble ring playing under the toughest conditions ever and highest level of basketball being played due to now crowd, social media ect

LeBron has the highest ring quality of anyone ever

[8Ball]

3 MVP OKC
Popovich Spurs Dynasty with 4 hofs
73 win Warriors
Bubble ring playing under the toughest conditions ever and highest level of basketball being played due to now crowd, social media ect

LeBron has the highest ring quality of anyone ever

True.

Lakers lost their starting point guard as well as home court advantage due to bubble.


It was extremely unfair disadvantage.

[ELITEpower23]

LBJ's 2012 ring (which is his 3rd best) is better than any of Jordan's Mickey Mouse 90's ring.

FACTS

[sdot_thadon]

He was very good defensively but GOAT level is a huge exaggeration. That GOAT epithet on defense should only be used for elite defensive bigs like Russell, Hakeem, Duncan etc. Lebron (nor Jordan) ever touched any of those guys in impact defensively. Not bloody close.

Luckily for us Lebron played most of his career in an advanced tracking era so we don't have the luxury of tall tales and "shoulda coulda woulda" we have detailed records of what he actually did in real time:

via: u/Marcus-Fart

When guarded by Lebron:

Finals DFG%
Overall: 31.6 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -16.3%
Threes: 29.0 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 39.6%, -10.6%
Twos: 33.3 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 53.6%, -20.3%
<6ft: 38.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 63.6%, -25.1%

In the final 3 games
Overall: 19.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 47.4,-28.4%
Threes: 12.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 40.7%, -28.2%
Twos: 25 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 52.4%, -27.4%
<6ft: 15.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 60.6%, -45.2



Golden State shot 2/13 at the rim in games 5-7 against LeBron....



Underrated fact about the 2016 finals is that Steph actually incinerated Cleveland whenever LeBron was off-court, down to game 7.
Per 36 minutes, so extrapolating to around a full game's worth of play, Curry averaged 44.6 points on 61.5/60.0/100 splits. He did not record a single turnover in these minutes.

However he was brutal with LeBron on-court, averaging 21.1 pts/36 on 37.8/37.1/91.7 splits.


Considering you won't be able to provide data of any other player doing something to this level , also considering that doesn't even include the offensive side of the ball, nor him being the only player ever to lead both teams in all categories in a finals, or leading historical comeback and lastly the level of team he did it against (an all time level offensive juggernaut) yeah I'll stick with it being "goat level defense". This isn't any disrespect to any player who had a defensively impactful finals, it's just putting some respect on Lebron's finest.

[dankok8]

Luckily for us Lebron played most of his career in an advanced tracking era so we don't have the luxury of tall tales and "shoulda coulda woulda" we have detailed records of what he actually did in real time:

via: u/Marcus-Fart

When guarded by Lebron:

Considering you won't be able to provide data of any other player doing something to this level , also considering that doesn't even include the offensive side of the ball, nor him being the only player ever to lead both teams in all categories in a finals, or leading historical comeback and lastly the level of team he did it against (an all time level offensive juggernaut) yeah I'll stick with it being "goat level defense". This isn't any disrespect to any player who had a defensively impactful finals, it's just putting some respect on Lebron's finest.

Don't mean to offend you but there is so much wrong in this post.

First off, I don't know where you got those tracking numbers but they seem a bit off. Here is the data from NBA.com.

https://i.postimg.cc/k5pwTwgb/Lebron-Defensive-Tracking-2016-Finals.jpg

Overall those are excellent numbers but nowhere near GOAT level defense. The best defenders always make the most impact erasing shots at the rim <6 feet. Lebron's 44% dFG% is a great number but the volume of shots he contested is so very low. 25 rim shots contested over 7 games works out to 3.6 rim shots contested/game. Since the opponent average is 62.6% (a bit less than 16/25 shots) and they made 11/25, it means Lebron erased less than 5 shots at the rim for the entire series! 10 points of impact over 7 games works out to about 1.4 points per game. That's the difference Lebron's defense made.

For comparison, a real GOAT defender say Tim Duncan in the 2003 Finals averaged 5.3 blocks per game and the majority of those were at the rim. Elite big men contest about 10 rim shots/game at a similar or better dFG% than Lebron so Duncan probably had about triple the defensive impact of Lebron. We also know from regression studies that elite defensive big men have about 5-6 points/game of defensive impact which is about 4 times higher than Lebron's impact in the 2016 series. And that of course makes sense because an elite big men will deter so many rim shots and will pick up many contested defensive rebounds which are valuable.

If you want to fixate on the last 3 games and yes the number you quoted 2/13 rim defense number is correct, then knowing that the total is 11/25, you have to acknowledge that he was poor on defense the first four games with 9/12 rim defense.

And last but not least, you tout the Warriors as an offensive juggernaut. They were in the regular season for sure but not even close in the playoffs.


2016 Warriors

Regular Season: +10.7 Net (+8.1 rORtg, -2.6 rDRtg)

R1 vs. Rockets: +19.4 rNet (+4.5 rORtg, -14.9 rDRtg)
WCSF vs. Blazers: +5.2 rNet (+9.3 rORtg, +4.1 rDRtg)
ECF vs. Thunder: +6.5 rNet (+2.2 rORtg, -4.3 rDRtg)
Finals vs. Cavaliers: +5.8 rNet (+4.0 rORtg, -1.8 rDRtg)

Postseason: +8.7 rNet (+4.2 rORtg, -4.5 rDRtg)

Since Curry came back in Game 4 of the Blazers series, they averaged a +4.1 rORtg the rest of the way which is no juggernaut.

And interestingly enough, the Warriors were better offensively against the Cavs than they were against OKC. So much for the Cavs (Lebron) stopping them.

And like I pointed out in an earlier post, their rNet rating which is a measure of overall team performance was very poor even after Curry came back. It's amazing intellectual dishonesty to call them a legendary team because of their regular season dominance when they weren't even close to that in the playoffs due to injuries and fatigue.

[Axe]

No offense to them but that 2016 warriors team which won 70+ games that year also struggled to win against kd's thunder in the wcf. Down 3-1, they needed that team to choke the last three games in order to advance to the finals. Good thing the cavs did the same exact stuff to them when they met there for the second time. Now that title will always be memorable due to two unique distinctions (over the others), for sure; coming back from a 3-1 deficit alongside defeating a 73-win team. But it didn't happen solely just because of lebron alone. Kyrie and love were there too for the whole series, unlike in the preceding finals.

[tpols]

Wait a second do you guys realize Lebron doesn't guard the best player on the opposing team even if they play his position?

Lebron didn't guard Durant when he was on OKC or Golden State. Shane Battier was the primary defender in the Thunder series and Lebron would let guys like JR Smith or Richard Jefferson take him in Cleveland while he hid on Dray. They even hid him on Courtney Lee in 2009 when Hedo was grilling them in crunchtime.

Bron pretty much always takes the weakest assignment so he can rest for offense and roam for steals and blocks.

Jordan actually took on the toughest man assignments and got the steals and blocks. He was a signifigantly better defensive player.

[sdot_thadon]

Don't mean to offend you but there is so much wrong in this post.

First off, I don't know where you got those tracking numbers but they seem a bit off. Here is the data from NBA.com.

https://i.postimg.cc/k5pwTwgb/Lebron-Defensive-Tracking-2016-Finals.jpg

Overall those are excellent numbers but nowhere near GOAT level defense. The best defenders always make the most impact erasing shots at the rim <6 feet. Lebron's 44% dFG% is a great number but the volume of shots he contested is so very low. 25 rim shots contested over 7 games works out to 3.6 rim shots contested/game. Since the opponent average is 62.6% (a bit less than 16/25 shots) and they made 11/25, it means Lebron erased less than 5 shots at the rim for the entire series! 10 points of impact over 7 games works out to about 1.4 points per game. That's the difference Lebron's defense made.

For comparison, a real GOAT defender say Tim Duncan in the 2003 Finals averaged 5.3 blocks per game and the majority of those were at the rim. Elite big men contest about 10 rim shots/game at a similar or better dFG% than Lebron so Duncan probably had about triple the defensive impact of Lebron. We also know from regression studies that elite defensive big men have about 5-6 points/game of defensive impact which is about 4 times higher than Lebron's impact in the 2016 series. And that of course makes sense because an elite big men will deter so many rim shots and will pick up many contested defensive rebounds which are valuable.

If you want to fixate on the last 3 games and yes the number you quoted 2/13 rim defense number is correct, then knowing that the total is 11/25, you have to acknowledge that he was poor on defense the first four games with 9/12 rim defense.

And last but not least, you tout the Warriors as an offensive juggernaut. They were in the regular season for sure but not even close in the playoffs.



Since Curry came back in Game 4 of the Blazers series, they averaged a +4.1 rORtg the rest of the way which is no juggernaut.

And interestingly enough, the Warriors were better offensively against the Cavs than they were against OKC. So much for the Cavs (Lebron) stopping them.

And like I pointed out in an earlier post, their rNet rating which is a measure of overall team performance was very poor even after Curry came back. It's amazing intellectual dishonesty to call them a legendary team because of their regular season dominance when they weren't even close to that in the playoffs due to injuries and fatigue.

You guys gotta stop getting so sensitive seeing Lebrons name in a sentence with the word goat. Goat level isn't me saying it's the greatest defensive finals ever, it's me saying it's amongst the absolute best I've seen. Period. Those numbers have been repeated across the web in many places since 2016 and are all the same as my post. The links in the posts to the sorted stats to see ourselves no longer lead to sorted stats for any of them. Sounds like nba.com changed something on their end, even with the numbers you posted assuming they are the "corrected" ones, they tell the same story. Great defense that got stingier as the series went on just as I stated. The last 3 games numbers are incredible considering the stakes being higher and higher by the game. I know Duncan also had an incredible Finals defensively, I'm sure others have too. Were they all putting up those numbers as rim protectors AND perimeter defenders at the same time? Wonder if they also led both teams in blocks and steals while we're at it. I'm sure they had a higher frequency of paint contested shots and a lower number of them outside the paint, but we aren't hand holding here are we? You're a mature fan you know theses things as I do. This is a unique performance by a goat level guy. It is what it is.

Here's some more numbers to chew on:


4th quarters or overtime in the Playoffs 2016: 87.3 DRTG in 155 Minutes, Without Him: 118.4 DRTG

Vs The Warriors, 4th quarters or overtime in the Playoffs 2016: 94.7 DRTG in 59 Min, Without Him: 110.9 DRTG

So A Playoff Defensive 4th Quarter +/- of +31.1 and VS Golden State's Offensive Juggernaut +16.2





About Steph's return: From his return against Portland all the way up to Game 7 against OKC, he averaged 29.3ppg/ 6.4rpg/6.7apg on 62% TS. One of the better stretches of his postseason career and largely in line with what he did in the regular season.

Also, Golden State put up a +7.7 SRS through the entire playoffs. Prior to the Finals, they were at +9.1, and up through game 4 of the Finals they were at +9.8.

GS Offense with Lebron ON the floor: 105.2 ORTG (292.2 MP, 560 Poss)
GS Offense with Lebron OFF the floor: 130.6 ORTG (43.8 MP, 84 Poss



I know SRS and NET are weird to track becuase peoples numbers come up differenr alot on those but It's also intellectually dishonest to act as if the Warriors weren't great when literally a block and a 3 pointer in the last minute of game 7 is the only reason they didn't 4peat from 2015-2018. I know you've got a company line to uphold, I get it but at some point dragging a flag just to downplay a guy is weird.

[gbaLL]

goh

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/9fce88627001689529c52bb050b11d80fbf2ff93/0_101_3600_2160/master/3600.jpg?width=1300&dpr=2&s=none

[sdot_thadon]

No offense to them but that 2016 warriors team which won 70+ games that year also struggled to win against kd's thunder in the wcf. Down 3-1, they needed that team to choke the last three games in order to advance to the finals. Good thing the cavs did the same exact stuff to them when they met there for the second time. Now that title will always be memorable due to two unique distinctions (over the others), for sure; coming back from a 3-1 deficit alongside defeating a 73-win team. But it didn't happen solely just because of lebron alone. Kyrie and love were there too for the whole series, unlike in the preceding finals.

Truth. Hell but can't disregard the fact they struggled against maybe the next best team in the league besides the 2 finalists.

[And1AllDay]

LBJ's 2012 ring (which is his 3rd best) is better than any of Jordan's Mickey Mouse 90's ring.

FACTS

this one right here yep that one right there made him the greatest

[gbaLL]

and1 #0

[And1AllDay]

and1 #0

+0

[dankok8]

You guys gotta stop getting so sensitive seeing Lebrons name in a sentence with the word goat. Goat level isn't me saying it's the greatest defensive finals ever, it's me saying it's amongst the absolute best I've seen. Period. Those numbers have been repeated across the web in many places since 2016 and are all the same as my post. The links in the posts to the sorted stats to see ourselves no longer lead to sorted stats for any of them. Sounds like nba.com changed something on their end, even with the numbers you posted assuming they are the "corrected" ones, they tell the same story. Great defense that got stingier as the series went on just as I stated. The last 3 games numbers are incredible considering the stakes being higher and higher by the game. I know Duncan also had an incredible Finals defensively, I'm sure others have too. Were they all putting up those numbers as rim protectors AND perimeter defenders at the same time? Wonder if they also led both teams in blocks and steals while we're at it. I'm sure they had a higher frequency of paint contested shots and a lower number of them outside the paint, but we aren't hand holding here are we? You're a mature fan you know theses things as I do. This is a unique performance by a goat level guy. It is what it is.

Here's some more numbers to chew on:







I know SRS and NET are weird to track becuase peoples numbers come up differenr alot on those but It's also intellectually dishonest to act as if the Warriors weren't great when literally a block and a 3 pointer in the last minute of game 7 is the only reason they didn't 4peat from 2015-2018. I know you've got a company line to uphold, I get it but at some point dragging a flag just to downplay a guy is weird.

If you think Lebron's defensive performance is the best you've ever seen, then you haven't seen enough. And I don't say that to be disrespectful. Lebron's impact on the defensive end in 2016 doesn't touch the defensive GOAT's like, for example, Tim Duncan in 2003. Like I said, Duncan's defensive impact is probably at least triple that of Lebron if not more. Perimeter defense just doesn't move the needle. None of the great perimeter defenders including Jordan and including Lebron never had much more than a small defensive impact on their teams. By contrast, defensive GOAT's like Duncan had colossal impact on the defensive end.

Those last 3 games, Bron was 2/13 defending at the rim. That's a really good % but he contested just 4.3 rim shots per game.

OFF samples in a single postseason are super small to matter. And even more so in a single series. And probably all Lebron OFF minutes in the 4th quarter were garbage time. Lebron would never sit in the 4th quarter or OT of a competitive game.

GS had a +7.7 SRS in the playoffs... ok but that's not a great number at all. Not to mention that number is greatly inflated by their first round demolition of Houston. From Round 2 onwards, the Warriors were below the level of even a typical Finals team in the last 10-15 years.

Like I said, with Curry in the postseason, they were +4.1 rORtg and -2.1 rDRtg for a +6.2 rNet. An average Finals team in the last 15 years is +8 rNet. The Warriors really underperformed in the playoffs. The reason why is debatable and maybe Curry was healthy (a reasonable claim you made) but they underperformed whatever the reason was. They were nowhere near a "juggernaut" and that was my point.

[sdot_thadon]

If you think Lebron's defensive performance is the best you've ever seen, then you haven't seen enough. And I don't say that to be disrespectful. Lebron's impact on the defensive end in 2016 doesn't touch the defensive GOAT's like, for example, Tim Duncan in 2003. Like I said, Duncan's defensive impact is probably at least triple that of Lebron if not more. Perimeter defense just doesn't move the needle. None of the great perimeter defenders including Jordan and including Lebron never had much more than a small defensive impact on their teams. By contrast, defensive GOAT's like Duncan had colossal impact on the defensive end.

Those last 3 games, Bron was 2/13 defending at the rim. That's a really good % but he contested just 4.3 rim shots per game.

OFF samples in a single postseason are super small to matter. And even more so in a single series. And probably all Lebron OFF minutes in the 4th quarter were garbage time. Lebron would never sit in the 4th quarter or OT of a competitive game.

GS had a +7.7 SRS in the playoffs... ok but that's not a great number at all. Not to mention that number is greatly inflated by their first round demolition of Houston. From Round 2 onwards, the Warriors were below the level of even a typical Finals team in the last 10-15 years.

Like I said, with Curry in the postseason, they were +4.1 rORtg and -2.1 rDRtg for a +6.2 rNet. An average Finals team in the last 15 years is +8 rNet. The Warriors really underperformed in the playoffs. The reason why is debatable and maybe Curry was healthy (a reasonable claim you made) but they underperformed whatever the reason was. They were nowhere near a "juggernaut" and that was my point.

Again with getting triggered lol, I didn't say it was the best defense I've ever seen. I said


Goat level isn't me saying it's the greatest defensive finals ever, it's me saying it's amongst the absolute best I've seen.

You keep saying Duncan, which is a no brainer. But without anything to support it besides "I feel" I just dumped a load of numbers on you to support why I feel like I feel about Lebron's '16 Finals defense.

Perimeter defense absolutely moves the needle, it's literally been enough to secure the FMVP for a few guys and give others consideration for it. Factor in that Lebron was likely both the best perimeter defender AND rim defender in that series by all accounts and metrics and what are we even discussing here? That you don't really like Lebron? We already got it. The Warriors SRS was at a respectable 9.8 thru game 4 before the comeback. And their offensive rating was astronomical whenever LeBron took a minute to catch a breath. We saw that in real time by virtue of the Cavs being unable to keep any sort of lead with Lebron OFF the floor. This was a running theme throughout their matchups. Is it really that painful to admit he had an all time great series defensively as well?

[warriorfan]

2012 = * due to lock out and playing vs 22 and 23 year old low iq chokers.
2013 = * ray allen bail out shot
2016 = * Adam Silver tampering
2020 = * bubble exhibition games
2011 = -1 Ring due to historical GOAT level choke

If we are being real about it with quality of rings, Lebron is legit sitting at -1 rings right now. All of dudes chips are super sus plus he has goat level chokes where he gets outscored by over the hill, 0 time all star, undersized shooting guards in the nba Finals. We are actually being generous and not even counting 2007 either when that should be a black mark on there record (stans like to bail this out for some broken reasoning). Even that being said LeBron’s track record is quite embarrassing when you look at it. He’s like a fringe top 10 guy if you are in love with longevity counting stats but he ain’t nowhere near the goat.

[ShawkFactory]

2012 = * due to lock out and playing vs 22 and 23 year old low iq chokers.
2013 = * ray allen bail out shot
2016 = * Adam Silver tampering
2020 = * bubble exhibition games
2011 = -1 Ring due to historical GOAT level choke

If we are being real about it with quality of rings, Lebron is legit sitting at -1 rings right now. All of dudes chips are super sus plus he has goat level chokes where he gets outscored by over the hill, 0 time all star, undersized shooting guards in the nba Finals. We are actually being generous and not even counting 2007 either when that should be a black mark on there record (stans like to bail this out for some broken reasoning). Even that being said LeBron’s track record is quite embarrassing when you look at it. He’s like a fringe top 10 guy if you are in love with longevity counting stats but he ain’t nowhere near the goat.

Mmhmmmm

[dankok8]

Again with getting triggered lol, I didn't say it was the best defense I've ever seen. I said



You keep saying Duncan, which is a no brainer. But without anything to support it besides "I feel" I just dumped a load of numbers on you to support why I feel like I feel about Lebron's '16 Finals defense.

Perimeter defense absolutely moves the needle, it's literally been enough to secure the FMVP for a few guys and give others consideration for it. Factor in that Lebron was likely both the best perimeter defender AND rim defender in that series by all accounts and metrics and what are we even discussing here? That you don't really like Lebron? We already got it. The Warriors SRS was at a respectable 9.8 thru game 4 before the comeback. And their offensive rating was astronomical whenever LeBron took a minute to catch a breath. We saw that in real time by virtue of the Cavs being unable to keep any sort of lead with Lebron OFF the floor. This was a running theme throughout their matchups. Is it really that painful to admit he had an all time great series defensively as well?

You dumped a load of numbers on me for sure but I explained how those numbers aren't that good. The Lebron defensive numbers are unimpressive compared to actual defensive GOAT's and the 2016 Warriors' team numbers in the playoffs are unimpressive even compared to average Finals teams in the last 15 years. Do you want me to post the rNet of every Finals team in the last 15 years to really drive that point home? If you want me to I will.

Lebron BARELY sat throughout the series (44 minutes total) and even much less so outside of garbage time yet you're doubling down on that. Those short OFF stints are just pure noise.

[dankok8]

Screw it. Here we go.

All Teams that Made the Finals 2010-2024 by Postseason rNet

2017 Warriors +17.2
2016 Cavaliers +15.2
2014 Spurs +14.5
2018 Warriors +14.4
2017 Cavaliers +13.2
2012 Heat +11.9
2013 Spurs +11.8
2015 Warriors +11.6
2011 Mavericks +11.6
2024 Celtics +11.1
2013 Heat +10.5
2019 Raptors +10.3
2022 Warriors +10.2
2024 Mavericks +10.1
2015 Cavaliers +9.6
2023 Nuggets +9.3
2021 Suns +9.3
2010 Celtics +8.9
2020 Lakers +8.9
2012 Thunder +8.9
2021 Bucks +8.8
2010 Lakers +8.7
2016 Warriors +8.7
2020 Heat +8.2
2011 Heat +8.0
2022 Celtics +7.6
2019 Warriors +7.4
2023 Heat +5.2
2014 Heat +5.1
2018 Cavaliers +2.3

2016 Warriors are 23rd out of the last 30 Finalists in postseason. And they are 8th of 15 among just losing Finalists.

[Axe]

Truth. Hell but can't disregard the fact they struggled against maybe the next best team in the league besides the 2 finalists.
Yea, i also believe the cavs could have repeated (had they retained the trio) if not for kd going to dubs in 2017. That decision really destroyed a lot of the gs/cle rivalry in terms of parity. The cavs were screwed heading into the finals.

[sdot_thadon]

You dumped a load of numbers on me for sure but I explained how those numbers aren't that good. The Lebron defensive numbers are unimpressive compared to actual defensive GOAT's and the 2016 Warriors' team numbers in the playoffs are unimpressive even compared to average Finals teams in the last 15 years. Do you want me to post the rNet of every Finals team in the last 15 years to really drive that point home? If you want me to I will.

Lebron BARELY sat throughout the series (44 minutes total) and even much less so outside of garbage time yet you're doubling down on that. Those short OFF stints are just pure noise.

Where are these "actual defensive goats" numbers to compare with what Lebron did in '16 then? You're coming off pretty disingenuously trying to have a numbers argument on one hand and a fluff argument on the other. Also sample size is always supposed to be taken into account. It applies to every single players numbers, not just Lebron's. I'll ignore the arbitrary cut off of rNet numbers but just pointing out that we see it. You've gotta be careful with stats, they'll poke your eyes out if you use them without adult supervision lol. You have to make other observations with the number set or theyre just numbers. The Warriors gagging the last 3 games straight to the Cavs obviously tanked all their rating numbers after game 4 once the Cavs figured out their way forward. That's the reason I stated their Srs being at 9.8 thru game 4, all these metrics fell off after that game. So using as an indication of the strength of an all time great team should be taken with a grain of salt seeing as that sample size is small like the Lebron one you're complaining about. Also you should be amazed that their rating isn't dead last given the biggest chokejob in NBA history.

Lastly. Isn't rNet that stat that said the Jazz were better over the 3 year stretch of 96-98 than a handful of back to back champs and 2 out of 3 Finals winners? While the Jazz didn't win a single title and missed the finals one of those 3 years? Is this really the stat you want to hang your hat on?

[sdot_thadon]

Yea, i also believe the cavs could have repeated (had they retained the trio) if not for kd going to dubs in 2017. That decision really destroyed a lot of the gs/cle rivalry in terms of parity. The cavs were screwed heading into the finals.

Definitely and I doubt Kyrie leaves a back to back champ if Kd isn't on the Warriros in 2017. I hate should coulda wouldas but if 2015 was all hands on deck with no injuries the cavs had a possible 3 peat on the table, maybe more.

[dankok8]

Where are these "actual defensive goats" numbers to compare with what Lebron did in '16 then? You're coming off pretty disingenuously trying to have a numbers argument on one hand and a fluff argument on the other. Also sample size is always supposed to be taken into account. It applies to every single players numbers, not just Lebron's. I'll ignore the arbitrary cut off of rNet numbers but just pointing out that we see it. You've gotta be careful with stats, they'll poke your eyes out if you use them without adult supervision lol. You have to make other observations with the number set or theyre just numbers. The Warriors gagging the last 3 games straight to the Cavs obviously tanked all their rating numbers after game 4 once the Cavs figured out their way forward. That's the reason I stated their Srs being at 9.8 thru game 4, all these metrics fell off after that game. So using as an indication of the strength of an all time great team should be taken with a grain of salt seeing as that sample size is small like the Lebron one you're complaining about. Also you should be amazed that their rating isn't dead last given the biggest chokejob in NBA history.

Lastly. Isn't rNet that stat that said the Jazz were better over the 3 year stretch of 96-98 than a handful of back to back champs and 2 out of 3 Finals winners? While the Jazz didn't win a single title and missed the finals one of those 3 years? Is this really the stat you want to hang your hat on?

Fluff argument? :facepalm

Old Tim Duncan in the 2014-2016 playoffs has higher defensive impact than Lebron in the 2016 Finals. And that's a version of Timmy averaging just 1.3 blocks a game because a real DPOY will contest a lot more than 3.6 rim shots per game which is what Lebron contested.

2014: 6.8 rim shots contested/game with -5.9 dFG% --> 0.8 points/game saved
2015: 8.1 rim shots contested/game with -13.3 dFG% --> 2.1 points/game saved
2016: 3.8 rim shots contested/game with -22.4 dFG% --> 1.7 points/game saved

Surely prime Duncan who averaged 5.3 blocks in the 2003 Finals doesn't have way higher impact than an old Duncan. *sarcasm* Obviously we don't have tracking data for the 2003 Finals but it's painfully obvious that his impact will dwarf Lebron's. 2003 Duncan is surely worth like 4-5 points/game on defense.

I'm not being disingenuous. OFF samples for a single series are extremely noisy and just useless. Which makes sense considering there's only 44 minutes in which Lebron sat of which a sizable chunk was garbage time to boot.

On the other hand, a postseason run of 24 games that the 2016 Warriors played as a team is a reasonable sample. That's 1109 minutes of play.

rNet is the best stat for team performance. It corrects for the strength of opponent and adjusts for pace. Is it perfect? No. There's always context to take into account. But the Jazz having the 10th best 3-year stretch (if I remember correctly) isn't so insane. They were a really good team in those years. A few smart people on RealGM have argued that the 97 Jazz are the best team not to win the title. And they played an actual juggernaut Bulls team to practically a draw in that Finals.

[gengiskhan]

2012 = * due to lock out and playing vs 22 and 23 year old low iq chokers.
2013 = * ray allen bail out shot
2016 = * Adam Silver tampering
2020 = * bubble exhibition games
2011 = -1 Ring due to historical GOAT level choke

If we are being real about it with quality of rings, Lebron is legit sitting at -1 rings right now. All of dudes chips are super sus plus he has goat level chokes where he gets outscored by over the hill, 0 time all star, undersized shooting guards in the nba Finals. We are actually being generous and not even counting 2007 either when that should be a black mark on there record (stans like to bail this out for some broken reasoning). Even that being said LeBron’s track record is quite embarrassing when you look at it. He’s like a fringe top 10 guy if you are in love with longevity counting stats but he ain’t nowhere near the goat.

that pretty much says it all....

LBJ is weak sauce. He had his chance after coming back to CLE. He blew that one too.

I've got LBJ literally at #10. It aint ever changing any time soon. He never dominated stat category.

If he is such a great play maker, why dont he has like 6-7 assist titles. its that easy. He always has ball in his hand all the time.

LBJ is just glorified Pippen type of player. A tad better. A combination of Pippen and Dominique, built wise, athleticism wise.

Is LBJ a great player. he is. So is Kobe. That alone dont get him into Top 10. Top 25 NBA ATGs are all great players.

now he is forced into Top 5 athletes in 21st century by ESPN. He is literally ahead of Usain Bolt. I am literally laughing.

we are back at it again. If MJ is 20th Century ESPN #1 athlete of the century, LBJ cannot be out of Top 5 in 21st century.

Klutch Sports and ESPN are making sure GOATs like Federer, Bolt, Djokovic and Nadal can never be ahead of LBJ in Top 5.

Federer is 1st to 20 Grand Slams. The guy literally opened up "20 Grand Slam Titles" club

Nadal is at 22 Grand Slams.

Djokavic most probably 1st to "25 Grand Slams" Club. He is literally the GOAT of tennis with 24 Grand Slams.

[sdot_thadon]

Fluff argument? :facepalm

Old Tim Duncan in the 2014-2016 playoffs has higher defensive impact than Lebron in the 2016 Finals. And that's a version of Timmy averaging just 1.3 blocks a game because a real DPOY will contest a lot more than 3.6 rim shots per game which is what Lebron contested.

2014: 6.8 rim shots contested/game with -5.9 dFG% --> 0.8 points/game saved
2015: 8.1 rim shots contested/game with -13.3 dFG% --> 2.1 points/game saved
2016: 3.8 rim shots contested/game with -22.4 dFG% --> 1.7 points/game saved

Surely prime Duncan who averaged 5.3 blocks in the 2003 Finals doesn't have way higher impact than an old Duncan. *sarcasm* Obviously we don't have tracking data for the 2003 Finals but it's painfully obvious that his impact will dwarf Lebron's. 2003 Duncan is surely worth like 4-5 points/game on defense.

I'm not being disingenuous. OFF samples for a single series are extremely noisy and just useless. Which makes sense considering there's only 44 minutes in which Lebron sat of which a sizable chunk was garbage time to boot.

On the other hand, a postseason run of 24 games that the 2016 Warriors played as a team is a reasonable sample. That's 1109 minutes of play.

rNet is the best stat for team performance. It corrects for the strength of opponent and adjusts for pace. Is it perfect? No. There's always context to take into account. But the Jazz having the 10th best 3-year stretch (if I remember correctly) isn't so insane. They were a really good team in those years. A few smart people on RealGM have argued that the 97 Jazz are the best team not to win the title. And they played an actual juggernaut Bulls team to practically a draw in that Finals.

Duncan is a big man, more specifically a center that hid at pf for a bulk of his career lol and those are only rim numbers lol. Lebron was killing the perimeter and defending the rim best in the same series. Again not questioning Duncan's impact as I have him rated highly as a defender but why only post some numbers and not all areas like I did for Lebron? Alot of intellectually dishonest work coming from you just to avoid saying Lebron had a pretty great Finals defensively.

*Also* 99% of advanced metrics are "noisy" and have weaknesses when using to depict a theory. There's a reason they are better suited to support an observation rather than be the observation . And again I highly doubt you question sample size when a stat tells the story you want to tell.

You should say rNet is your favorite, hard to be the best stat when you're the only person I've ever seen post it. And again the 3 year span of the Jazz? 2 Finals losses and the 3rd is not even a finals appearance. They are 10th? Higher than teams that made the finals all 3 years and won 2 or made the finals 2 out of the 3 years and won? You can keep that one lol.

[Real14]

3 MVP OKC
Popovich Spurs Dynasty with 4 hofs
73 win Warriors
Bubble ring playing under the toughest conditions ever and highest level of basketball being played due to now crowd, social media ect

LeBron has the highest ring quality of anyone ever

It's time to get off that crack now man:kobe:

[And1AllDay]

3 MVP OKC
Popovich Spurs Dynasty with 4 hofs
73 win Warriors
Bubble ring playing under the toughest conditions ever and highest level of basketball being played due to now crowd, social media ect

LeBron has the highest ring quality of anyone ever

bingo /thread

[dankok8]

Duncan is a big man, more specifically a center that hid at pf for a bulk of his career lol and those are only rim numbers lol. Lebron was killing the perimeter and defending the rim best in the same series. Again not questioning Duncan's impact as I have him rated highly as a defender but why only post some numbers and not all areas like I did for Lebron? Alot of intellectually dishonest work coming from you just to avoid saying Lebron had a pretty great Finals defensively.

*Also* 99% of advanced metrics are "noisy" and have weaknesses when using to depict a theory. There's a reason they are better suited to support an observation rather than be the observation . And again I highly doubt you question sample size when a stat tells the story you want to tell.

You should say rNet is your favorite, hard to be the best stat when you're the only person I've ever seen post it. And again the 3 year span of the Jazz? 2 Finals losses and the 3rd is not even a finals appearance. They are 10th? Higher than teams that made the finals all 3 years and won 2 or made the finals 2 out of the 3 years and won? You can keep that one lol.

dFG% on jumpshots (basically everything except rim defense) is too noisy for a single series. Don't believe me? Check your favorite player and go series by series. Numbers are random. I don't know how you don't concede that refereeing to Lebron's defense as GOAT level is a massive exaggeration. I never said he didn't play good defense just that it's not in the same tier as the elite defensive bigs. And to be fair, no non-big approaches someone like Duncan in defensive impact.

Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball uses rNet all the time. Being the only who posts it on this forum isn't really saying much. This place is kind of dead when it comes to serious basketball discussion.

[sdot_thadon]

dFG% on jumpshots (basically everything except rim defense) is too noisy for a single series. Don't believe me? Check your favorite player and go series by series. Numbers are random. I don't know how you don't concede that refereeing to Lebron's defense as GOAT level is a massive exaggeration. I never said he didn't play good defense just that it's not in the same tier as the elite defensive bigs. And to be fair, no non-big approaches someone like Duncan in defensive impact.

Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball uses rNet all the time. Being the only who posts it on this forum isn't really saying much. This place is kind of dead when it comes to serious basketball discussion.
The stats that oppose your views are noisy, what are the odds lol? You argued that Lebron didn't have a goat level or even great finals defensively and the only meat you've offered is Duncan's rim dfg% from one series lol. So even if thet one line of evidence was enough to disprove the several angles of statistical record I've cited: you've proved one guy had a better finals. Are there more? Probably, just off the top of my head Olajuwon in 94 was pretty great he literally blocked a 3 to save the title in game 6. But how many guys you have proof of to push Lebron's series out of that level? How many perimeter guys can you say were the best rim protectors as well in a finals? I don't think you have enough. Also perimeter defense was easily more important considering the competition Lebron faced. Everything isn't the same in 2016 as it was in 2005 or 1994 or any other time, just things to chew on.

I'm a fan of Ben's work, but I'll pretty much guaran-damn-tee you he didn't use that rNet stat standalone to prove any stance or theory he had otherwise I wouldn't be a fan. And just the fact that a respected analyst uses a metric won't erase the common sense wtf factor of its flaws. I like what you're doing here because you actually participate in decent debates even if your bias sticks out from time to time lol. I just don't agree with your rebuttal here in the slightest, you're not supplying enough meat to sway anyone's opinion.

[dankok8]

The stats that oppose your views are noisy, what are the odds lol? You argued that Lebron didn't have a goat level or even great finals defensively and the only meat you've offered is Duncan's rim dfg% from one series lol. So even if thet one line of evidence was enough to disprove the several angles of statistical record I've cited: you've proved one guy had a better finals. Are there more? Probably, just off the top of my head Olajuwon in 94 was pretty great he literally blocked a 3 to save the title in game 6. But how many guys you have proof of to push Lebron's series out of that level? How many perimeter guys can you say were the best rim protectors as well in a finals? I don't think you have enough. Also perimeter defense was easily more important considering the competition Lebron faced. Everything isn't the same in 2016 as it was in 2005 or 1994 or any other time, just things to chew on.

I'm a fan of Ben's work, but I'll pretty much guaran-damn-tee you he didn't use that rNet stat standalone to prove any stance or theory he had otherwise I wouldn't be a fan. And just the fact that a respected analyst uses a metric won't erase the common sense wtf factor of its flaws. I like what you're doing here because you actually participate in decent debates even if your bias sticks out from time to time lol. I just don't agree with your rebuttal here in the slightest, you're not supplying enough meat to sway anyone's opinion.

Dude... They are noisy.

I don't have to go out of my way to prove that a great defensive big man will have way more impact than Lebron defensively. That's like... common knowledge. Or maybe it isn't common knowledge but it should be. Lion's share of defensive impact comes from bigs protecting the paint. Perimeter defense doesn't move the needle. Look at all time greats in perimeter defense. They are worth like 1 point on defense. All time great bigs are worth like 5 points. It's not close.

I'm not using rNet on its own either. You won't see me rank the 1996-1998 Jazz as the 10th best team ever. I was just being a contrarian and saying how they are probably a better team than they seem at first glance. Getting beat by an actual juggernaut dynasty in two Finals probably makes you underrated.

Not being biased here. If you look at my post history, I attacked 3ball and others just as badly for calling MJ a GOAT defender.

[sdot_thadon]

Dude... They are noisy.

I don't have to go out of my way to prove that a great defensive big man will have way more impact than Lebron defensively. That's like... common knowledge. Or maybe it isn't common knowledge but it should be. Lion's share of defensive impact comes from bigs protecting the paint. Perimeter defense doesn't move the needle. Look at all time greats in perimeter defense. They are worth like 1 point on defense. All time great bigs are worth like 5 points. It's not close.

I'm not using rNet on its own either. You won't see me rank the 1996-1998 Jazz as the 10th best team ever. I was just being a contrarian and saying how they are probably a better team than they seem at first glance. Getting beat by an actual juggernaut dynasty in two Finals probably makes you underrated.

Not being biased here. If you look at my post history, I attacked 3ball and others just as badly for calling MJ a GOAT defender.

In that era? Sure. But I know you're not suggesting the Goldenstate Warriors dynasty was known and feared for their blistering paint attack lol. Different teams and especially eras have far different styles. Great disruptive perimeter defense vs the Warriors is just as crucial as defending the paint in an era where most of the shots and threat came from closer to the rim. You really think the 03 Nets made team defend the perimeter in fear of the 3 like the Warriors did? Not even close, there's so many ways to play basketball I'm still dumbfounded at how stuck fans can get in single aspects. You're wound up over the use of the phrase "goat level" but at the same time have provided absolutely nothing to the contrary besides your unsupported opinion. Stop looking at the names and the labels and actually pay attention to the substance. I haven't had to diminish any players performance to make my statement about Lebron's series.

And yeah you did throw rNet out there on its own as your reason the Warriors that won 73 games and made the finals weren't a great team. But the Utah Jazz? That's greatness :oldlol:

[dankok8]

In that era? Sure. But I know you're not suggesting the Goldenstate Warriors dynasty was known and feared for their blistering paint attack lol. Different teams and especially eras have far different styles. Great disruptive perimeter defense vs the Warriors is just as crucial as defending the paint in an era where most of the shots and threat came from closer to the rim. You really think the 03 Nets made team defend the perimeter in fear of the 3 like the Warriors did? Not even close, there's so many ways to play basketball I'm still dumbfounded at how stuck fans can get in single aspects. You're wound up over the use of the phrase "goat level" but at the same time have provided absolutely nothing to the contrary besides your unsupported opinion. Stop looking at the names and the labels and actually pay attention to the substance. I haven't had to diminish any players performance to make my statement about Lebron's series.

And yeah you did throw rNet out there on its own as your reason the Warriors that won 73 games and made the finals weren't a great team. But the Utah Jazz? That's greatness :oldlol:

Unsupported opinion? I provided evidence of Tim Duncan completely destroying Lebron in terms of defensive impact. Heck an old Duncan using tracking data looks significantly more impactful than Lebron in his best defensive series. If that doesn't prove my point, I don't know what does.

And you want to know who the real "defensive GOAT" in the 2016 playoffs was? Draymond Green. He's a big reason for why the Warriors even made the Finals. The man contested 8.7 rim shots on -16.1 dFG% over the entire postseason which is 2.8 points saved/game. Just in the Finals he contested 11.2 rim shots on -8.2 dFG% which is 1.8 points/game. That's better than Lebron's 1.4 points/game impact. How can you possibly be a GOAT defender when there is someone better than you in that same series...

Paint defense is the top priority of any defense in any era. For sure in the last few years, the relative importance of paint defense is slightly diminished with so many more perimeter shots being taken but it's still the most important aspect of defense. Because those 3's just aren't open when there is no paint pressure. In fact Curry being a step slow in the Finals and Lebron helping in the paint is what prevented the Warriors from breaking down the Cavs defense and generating those open threes.

The 2016 Warriors didn't play like a great team in the playoffs. That's painfully obvious. You yourself posted a +7.7 SRS number that isn't impressive. rNet is basically SRS but adjusted for pace. Why you'd be so opposed to that metric baffles me.