Espns top 100 athletes of the 21st century so far.

[Kblaze8855]

ESPN’s Top 100 Athletes of the 21st Century


1. Michael Phelps, Swimming
2. Serena Williams, Tennis
3. Lionel Messi, Soccer
4. LeBron James, Basketball
5. Tom Brady, Football
6. Roger Federer, Tennis
7. Simone Biles, Gymnastics
8. Tiger Woods, Golf
9. Usain Bolt, Track
10. Kobe Bryant, Basketball
11. Novak Djokovic, Tennis
12. Rafael Nadal, Tennis
13. Cristiano Ronaldo, Soccer
14. Stephen Curry, Basketball
15. Katie Ledecky, Swimming
16. Tim Duncan, Basketball
17. Shaquille O'Neal, Basketball
18. Patrick Mahomes, Football
19. Lewis Hamilton, Auto Racing
20. Aaron Donald, Football
21. Diana Taurasi, Basketball
22. Sidney Crosby, Hockey
23. Kevin Garnett, Basketball
24. Albert Pujols, Baseball
25. Floyd Mayweather, Boxing
26. Peyton Manning, Football
27. Randy Moss, Football
28. Nikola Jokic, Basketball
29. Michael Schumacher, Auto Racing
30. Mike Trout, Baseball
31. Clayton Kershaw, Baseball
32. Marta, Soccer
33. Miguel Cabrera, Baseball
34. Tamika Catchings, Basketball
35. Dwyane Wade, Basketball
36. Maya Moore, Basketball
37. Ichiro Suzuki, Baseball
38. Barry Bonds, Baseball
39. Kevin Durant, Basketball
40. Justin Verlander, Baseball
41. Dirk Nowitzki, Basketball
42. Giannis Antetokounmpo, Basketball
43. Alex Rodriguez, Baseball
44. Mikaela Shiffrin, Skiing
45. David Ortiz, Baseball
46. Max Scherzer, Baseball
47. Jimmie Johnson, Auto Racing
48. Thierry Henry, Soccer
49. Aitana Bonmati, Soccer
50. Zinedine Zidane, Soccer
51. Steve Nash, Basketball
52. Adrian Beltré, Baseball
53. Derek Jeter, Baseball
54. Alex Ovechkin, Hockey
55. Luka Modric, Soccer
56. Alexia Putellas, Soccer
57. Calvin Johnson, Football
58. J.J. Watt, Football
59. Mariano Rivera, Baseball
60. Candace Parker, Basketball
61. Ray Lewis, Football
62. Shohei Ohtani, Baseball
63. Allyson Felix, Track
64. Mia Hamm, Soccer
65. Kylian Mbappé, Soccer
66. Jon Jones, MMA
67. James Harden, Basketball
68. Phil Mickelson, Golf
69. Jason Kidd, Basketball
70. Andrés Iniesta, Soccer
71. Manny Pacquiao, Boxing
72. Shaun White, Snowboarding
73. Mookie Betts, Baseball
74. Lisa Leslie, Basketball
75. Xavi Hernandez, Soccer
76. Georges St-Pierre, MMA
77. Shelly-Ann Fraser Pryce, Track
78. Bernard Hopkins, Boxing
79. Bryce Harper, Baseball
80. Andy Murray, Tennis
81. Sheryl Swoopes, Basketball
82. Kohei Uchimura, Gymnastics
83. Chris Paul, Basketball
84. Lauren Jackson, Basketball
85. Kawhi Leonard, Basketball
86. Venus Williams, Tennis
87. Ronaldo Nazário, Soccer
88. Roy Halladay, Baseball
89. Annika Sorenstam, Golf
90. A'ja Wilson, Basketball
91. Aaron Rodgers, Football
92. Pedro Martinez, Baseball
93. Rory McIlroy, Golf
94. Ronaldinho, Soccer
95. Zlatan Ibrahimović, Soccer
96. Darrelle Revis, Football
97. Virat Kohli, Cricket
98. Connor McDavid, Hockey
99. Ed Reed, Football
100. Charles Woodson, Football

[ArbitraryWater]

I was hoping no one would post this to not even give this shit attention


In any case, Kobe Bryant was never even remotely as good in his sport than Djokovic/Nadal/Ronaldo were in theirs. Mindboggling stuff.

[bison]

I was hoping no one would post this to not even give this shit attention

:oldlol:

[bison]

top 9 all use ROIDS.

[Neal Romer]

Lebron is EASILY #1 and Bronny no lower than 50.

This is a travesty of justice, no kap.

[ArbitraryWater]

One thing I will want to say to this comparison as a whole, its nearly impossible to compare players who actively engage with the opponent and have to adjust vs. athletes, and I say athletes and not player, who are basically just competing against a certain time never the less aesthetic/form (gymnastics).

If youre the best at that, like Phelps, Bolt, Biles were, you will face a lot less variance than being the best in a "combat" sport.

And judging individuals from team sports is of course even tougher, cause you have to take that whole circumstance into account every time.

[AlternativeAcc.]

This list is just a hodgepodge of names with no real effort to be in any real order. The GOAT of mma is at 66 behind WNBA stars and people nowhere near rhe conversation of GOAT in their own sport. Khabib not even on the list. But a swimmer is number 1. :lol

Just an incredibly stupid, politically driven pile of d9g shit.

[ArbitraryWater]

This list is just a hodgepodge of names with no real effort to be in any real order. The GOAT of mma is at 66 behind WNBA stars and people nowhere near rhe conversation of GOAT in their own sport. Khabib not even on the list. But a swimmer is number 1. :lol

Just an incredibly stupid, politically driven pile of d9g shit.


And GSP at 76.

lmao.

Nothing adding up here.

[ArbitraryWater]

Ronaldo Nazario and Ronaldinho behind Chris Paul :D


Schumacher behind Moss and Garnett hahahahahaha

[gbaLL]

i = me

[Real Men Wear Green]

If Phelps is #1 why isn't Ledecky even top 10? And go ahead and give Lia Thomas a spot as well if we just want to overrate swimmers.

[ArbitraryWater]

If Phelps is #1 why isn't Ledecky even top 10? And go ahead and give Lia Thomas a spot as well if we just want to overrate swimmers.


lmao

[AlternativeAcc.]

And GSP at 76.

lmao.

Nothing adding up here.

Rodgers at 91 is a dead giveaway its a politically driven pile of horse shit. 4x MVP in the NFL and he's at 91 because he didn't want to get a vaccine. Hilarious.

[BurningHammer]

Usain Bolt should have been #2.

The rest is subjective but alright.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Usain Bolt should have been #2.

The rest is subjective but alright.

Whoever made the list doesn't seem to care about popularity and that's one of the most important factors. How many kids grow up wanting to be a great basketball or soccer star vs a great swimmer? LeBron James or Lionel Messi might just be #1 in a billion. You don't see pick up swimming races like you do pick up basketball games.

[Neal Romer]

There's literally no way you could arrange this list that couldnt be legitimately disagreed with. Ultimately there's no criteria you could use that would make for consistent, standardized comparisons. How are you supposed to legitimately compare a swimmer, a tennis player, a basketball player, and a NASCAR driver?? It's impossible.

As was stated, this is just a pointless pile of names thrown together for content. There's nothing useful to be gleaned.

[Wardell Curry]

Tiger Woods @ 8?

:roll:

[j3lademaster]

Tiger Woods @ 8?

:roll:Yup. He's too low.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Yup. He's too low.

He arguably should be 1.

Tiger
Novak
LeBron
Messi
Mayweather
Ronaldo
Jones
Phelps
Bolt
Brady

Should be the top 10, and you can mix up the order and it'd still be legit.

You can do a reasonable job if you actually know sports, but ESPN doesn't care about credibility.

[Wardell Curry]

Yup. He's too low.

Far too low. Tiger has a legit argument for GOAT athlete respective to their particular sport. He is unquestionably the golf GOAT and it's not even close. Don't talk to me about Nicklaus. Dude wouldn't hang with Tiger. No way no how.

Had Tiger stayed healthy he would have smashed the all time wins record and all time majors record. But he didn't and despite that it's still very clear just how much better he was than everyone who ever picked up a club.

[Neal Romer]

Just noticed James Harden at 67 :roll:


Ahead of Pacquiao, Rogers, McDavid, Ronaldinho, Ed Reed, Bryce Harper.


:roll:

[ImKobe]

I was hoping no one would post this to not even give this shit attention


In any case, Kobe Bryant was never even remotely as good in his sport than Djokovic/Nadal/Ronaldo were in theirs. Mindboggling stuff.

Kobe won 5 championships in the 21st Century. That's #1 for all NBA players & more than any NBA franchise other than the Lakers. If anything he should be higher on that list.

[Neal Romer]

Far too low. Tiger has a legit argument for GOAT athlete respective to their particular sport. He is unquestionably the golf GOAT and it's not even close. Don't talk to me about Nicklaus. Dude wouldn't hang with Tiger. No way no how.

Had Tiger stayed healthy he would have smashed the all time wins record and all time majors record. But he didn't and despite that it's still very clear just how much better he was than everyone who ever picked up a club.

Something nobody seems to talk about - and I'm not gonna say "Tiger was juicin" for legal purposes - but dude got really JACKED for a while, and was definitely linked to that Biogenesis thing in Miami, and as soon as that scandal busted open Tiger became smaller and more injury prone.

And of course I know steroids isnt what makes you actually good at a sport, but it does enable you to sustain dominance more consistently.

So I'm jussayin.

[Wardell Curry]

Kobe won 5 championships in the 21st Century. That's #1 for all NBA players & more than any NBA franchise other than the Lakers. If anything he should be higher on that list.

I don't think you understand. People here watched the games. All things considered, Kobe is probably #4 post 2000. If you overvalue Shaq's peak and only look at 2000+, that slips Kobe to #5.

There is zero chance, if a re-do draft were done today with all these players knowing how they turned out, that I would take Kobe over Uncle Timmy, LeBron, Steph. Zero. Almost everyone here would agree.

[Wardell Curry]

Something nobody seems to talk about - and I'm not gonna say "Tiger was juicin" for legal purposes - but dude got really JACKED for a while, and was definitely linked to that Biogenesis thing in Miami, and as soon as that scandal busted open Tiger became smaller and more injury prone.

And of course I know steroids isnt what makes you actually good at a sport, but it does enable you to sustain dominance more consistently.

So I'm jussayin.

He probably was. Do I care?

Most athletes today are on something. Almost all of them, yes, even whoever your favorite is, and no I'm not talking about LeBron that you meme about 24/7/365. But him too.

[Neal Romer]

He probably was. Do I care?

Most athletes today are on something. Almost all of them, yes, even whoever your favorite is, and no I'm not talking about LeBron that you meme about 24/7/365. But him too.

Well you just said Nicklaus couldnt hang with Tiger no way no how.

But, uhh, how could you expect him to if they're not on an equal playing field?

Why can't 48 year old Tiger hang with 54 year old Mickelson?

Maybe calling Tiger the GOAT and shutting down the conversation isnt all there is to it.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Something nobody seems to talk about - and I'm not gonna say "Tiger was juicin" for legal purposes - but dude got really JACKED for a while, and was definitely linked to that Biogenesis thing in Miami, and as soon as that scandal busted open Tiger became smaller and more injury prone.

And of course I know steroids isnt what makes you actually good at a sport, but it does enable you to sustain dominance more consistently.

So I'm jussayin.

Have you seen Tiger recently? He's bigger now than he was in his prime. And it doesn't help in tournaments.

It's possible Tiger has juiced obviously, but if you read up on his history you'll see he tore his body up with bizarre navy seals style training where he'd run in combat boots and other crazy drills. He also had a very explosive swing which compromised his back and knees.

Golf is a skill dominant sport and one of the least affected by sheer strength/recovery. (Compared to other major sports)

Tigers putting and short game is what put him over the top in his prime (all skill).

[ImKobe]

I don't think you understand. People here watched the games. All things considered, Kobe is probably #4 post 2000. If you overvalue Shaq's peak and only look at 2000+, that slips Kobe to #5.

There is zero chance, if a re-do draft were done today with all these players knowing how they turned out, that I would take Kobe over Uncle Timmy, LeBron, Steph. Zero. Almost everyone here would agree.

Post 2000 Duncan has 4 titles to Kobe's 5, and Kobe beat him 4 - 1 H2H in the Playoffs from '01-'08. Kobe won the 2000s decade poll over Shaq & Duncan by a landslide.

It's about being the most accomplished in your sport in the 21st century. No one won more than Kobe did in the 2000s, and he was the face of the most successful NBA franchise of the 21st century.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Post 2000 Duncan has 4 titles to Kobe's 5, and Kobe beat him 4 - 1 H2H in the Playoffs from '01-'08. Kobe won the 2000s decade poll over Shaq & Duncan by a landslide.

It's about being the most accomplished in your sport in the 21st century. No one won more than Kobe did in the 2000s, and he was the face of the most successful NBA franchise of the 21st century.

He has one mvp award. In spite of your treating an NBA championship like its an individual achievement no one with any sense is going to agree with this.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Post 2000 Duncan has 4 titles to Kobe's 5, and Kobe beat him 4 - 1 H2H in the Playoffs from '01-'08. Kobe won the 2000s decade poll over Shaq & Duncan by a landslide.

It's about being the most accomplished in your sport in the 21st century. No one won more than Kobe did in the 2000s, and he was the face of the most successful NBA franchise of the 21st century.

He has one mvp award. In spite of your treating an NBA championship like its an individual achievement no one with any sense is going to agree with this.

[ImKobe]

He has one mvp award. In spite of your treating an NBA championship like its an individual achievement no one with any sense is going to agree with this.

So Tom Brady isn't the GOAT of his sport because championships are a team achievement?

[ImKobe]

Also MVP is a team award as well. Kobe might've won 2 or 3 if he didn't play on rebuilding teams at the absolute peak of his powers.

[Neal Romer]

Have you seen Tiger recently? He's bigger now than he was in his prime. And it doesn't help in tournaments.

It's possible Tiger has juiced obviously, but if you read up on his history you'll see he tore his body up with bizarre navy seals style training where he'd run in combat boots and other crazy drills. He also had a very explosive swing which compromised his back and knees.

Golf is a skill dominant sport and one of the least affected by sheer strength/recovery. (Compared to other major sports)

Tigers putting and short game is what put him over the top in his prime (all skill).

I agree he was as gifted a golfer as anyone ever.

But the reality is all these rankings are based in some part on achievement. And we cant really know how consistently Tiger wins if he has 'ordinary' stamina and focus and all the things affected by T.

It's just like Bonds and Clemmens. Are they all time greats without the juice? Yes. Are they AS dominant for AS long without it? We'll never know but it feels unlikely or else why bother take it.

[Neal Romer]

So Tom Brady isn't the GOAT of his sport because championships are a team achievement?

He can be considered the GOAT, sure, but there's nothing 'automatic' about it because team sports are extremely circumstantial, football most of all.

You can argue for Brady based on whatever records he holds, or how he played the game, or whatever it is. But an argument based on 'rings' is actually not very intelligent. It doesnt work well in any team sport, and it doesnt work at all in football.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I agree he was as gifted a golfer as anyone ever.

But the reality is all these rankings are based in some part on achievement. And we cant really know how consistently Tiger wins if he has 'ordinary' stamina and focus and all the things affected by T.

It's just like Bonds and Clemmens. Are they all time greats without the juice? Yes. Are they AS dominant for AS long without it? We'll never know but it feels unlikely or else why bother take it.

In reality he was never formally busted for steroids like Bonds/Clemens so assuming he was doesn't really make sense.

Giannis and LeBron got bigger as they aged, as did Kobe and most other athletes. Should we just assume they were all on steroids too?

And is Tiger on steroids now because he's bigger than he was in his prime? Why is he not winning tournaments and still struggles to stay healthy?

Your line of reasoning doesn't really sense. He was dominant as a skinny kid in the 90s and after he gained muscle. I'm not sure why you think assuming steroids was the reason for his unprecedented success with no evidence is worth even bringing up.

[Xiao Yao You]

Also MVP is a team award as well. Kobe might've won 2 or 3 if he didn't play on rebuilding teams at the absolute peak of his powers.

He was on rebuilding teams because he thought he could do it on his own

[Neal Romer]

In reality he was never formally busted for steroids like Bonds/Clemens so assuming he was doesn't really make sense.

Giannis and LeBron got bigger as they aged, as did Kobe and most other athletes. Should we just assume they were all on steroids too?

And is Tiger on steroids now because he's bigger than he was in his prime? Why is he not winning tournaments and still struggles to stay healthy?

Your line of reasoning doesn't really sense. He was dominant as a skinny kid in the 90s and after he gained muscle. I'm not sure why you think assuming steroids was the reason for his unprecedented success with no evidence is worth even bringing up.

Yes. Of course.

And aside from Lebron, if someone said a very likely steroid user couldnt be considered 'the open and shut GOAT of their sport' that would be a reasonable assessment. Because it's impossible to truly compare their performance with other GOATs in their sport who were clean, whoever that may be. And obviously we dont know who is for sure clean and not clean in any sport. But someone who was directly linked to Biogenesis and clearly puffed up huge during that time, is safe to say not on the same regiment Jack Nicklaus was on. So I dont think it's unreasonable to at least suggest "Woods is GOAT case closed" is a little bit hasty. That's literally all I was arguing. That the suggestion "Woods is GOAT, no argument" is potentially hasty.



https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/04/masters-woods--e1712881211497.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=744
https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/fullset/2023/12/tiger-woods-pnc-championship-2023-sunday-smile.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.966.644.suffix/1702854566532.jpeg


Also he's not bigger now altho I concede he's still pretty big. But his career downturn came right around the time the Biogenesis thing got exposed. You dont find that a little sus? How come he cant contend the way Mickelson still can? If it's cause he cant stay healthy without the stacks... you have to wonder if he ever would have.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe won 5 championships in the 21st Century. That's #1 for all NBA players & more than any NBA franchise other than the Lakers. If anything he should be higher on that list.


What does that have to do with him being nowhere near as good at Basketball as Nadal/Djokovic at Tennis and Ronaldo in Football?

[ArbitraryWater]

There's literally no way you could arrange this list that couldnt be legitimately disagreed with. Ultimately there's no criteria you could use that would make for consistent, standardized comparisons. How are you supposed to legitimately compare a swimmer, a tennis player, a basketball player, and a NASCAR driver?? It's impossible.

As was stated, this is just a pointless pile of names thrown together for content. There's nothing useful to be gleaned.


Sure but thats besides the point.


There are several obvious complete brainfarts in this.

[SouBeachTalents]

What does that have to do with him being nowhere near as good at Basketball as Nadal/Djokovic at Tennis and Ronaldo in Football?
5 rangz, most of which came as 2nd option, is more impressive than 22-24 grand slams.

[ImKobe]

What does that have to do with him being nowhere near as good at Basketball as Nadal/Djokovic at Tennis and Ronaldo in Football?

Kobe's more skilled at basketball than Ronaldo is at soccer, and I'm a huge fan of both.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe's more skilled at basketball than Ronaldo is at soccer, and I'm a huge fan of both.

No youre not but again: What does that have to do with him being nowhere near as good at Basketball as Nadal/Djokovic at Tennis and Ronaldo in Football?

Because this comment still doesnt adress that.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Yes. Of course.

And aside from Lebron, if someone said a very likely steroid user couldnt be considered 'the open and shut GOAT of their sport' that would be a reasonable assessment. Because it's impossible to truly compare their performance with other GOATs in their sport who were clean, whoever that may be. And obviously we dont know who is for sure clean and not clean in any sport. But someone who was directly linked to Biogenesis and clearly puffed up huge during that time, is safe to say not on the same regiment Jack Nicklaus was on. So I dont think it's unreasonable to at least suggest "Woods is GOAT case closed" is a little bit hasty. That's literally all I was arguing. That the suggestion "Woods is GOAT, no argument" is potentially hasty.



https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/04/masters-woods--e1712881211497.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=744
https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/fullset/2023/12/tiger-woods-pnc-championship-2023-sunday-smile.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.966.644.suffix/1702854566532.jpeg


Also he's not bigger now altho I concede he's still pretty big. But his career downturn came right around the time the Biogenesis thing got exposed. You dont find that a little sus? How come he cant contend the way Mickelson still can? If it's cause he cant stay healthy without the stacks... you have to wonder if he ever would have.

Well if you assume every accomplished athlete is juicing then you can't assume any modern athlete is the GOAT of their respective sport when compared to athletes of the past according to this line of thinking. Logically though, it doesn't actually hold up, because then you would have to assume the competition is juicing as well, which means Tiger dominating the field is no different than Jack dominating the field in his day.

Also you're ignoring that Tiger had his best year in 2000 as a skinny 25 year old, and the only link I can find is him paying a controversial doctor in 09 AFTER he sustained severe injuries and after he already won 14 majors. So again, nothing you're saying here is actually adding up.

[Neal Romer]

Well if you assume every accomplished athlete is juicing then you can't assume any modern athlete is the GOAT of their respective sport when compared to athletes of the past according to this line of thinking. Logically though, it doesn't actually hold up, because then you would have to assume the competition is juicing as well, which means Tiger dominating the field is no different than Jack dominating the field in his day.

Also you're ignoring that Tiger had his best year in 2000 as a skinny 25 year old, and the only link I can find is him paying a controversial doctor in 09 AFTER he sustained severe injuries and after he already won 14 majors. So again, nothing you're saying here is actually adding up.

I dont, frankly. There IS no such quantifiable thing as 'the GOAT.' It's fine as a launching pad for a conversation, but when people try to turn it into a provable scientific fact, they're attempting the impossible and it often sounds agenda-driven and silly.

Yes, some opinions will seem far less supportable than others. But it's still not a concrete thing. There is no such TANGIBLE thing as a GOAT anything, unless of course we're speaking of Lebron. So to say there is "no way no how" Jack Nicklaus can be compared with Tiger, ESPECIALLY when his ability to sustain dominance was likely enhanced artificially... it's obvious hyperbole. There IS an argument someone could at least make, which is the one I made. Note that I have not said Woods ISNT the best golfer ever. I'm saying it's not some kind of scientific fact.

If you disagree with that, that's fine. We can disagree.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I dont, frankly. There IS no such quantifiable thing as 'the GOAT.' It's fine as a launching pad for a conversation, but when people try to turn it into a provable scientific fact, they're attempting the impossible and it often sounds agenda-driven and silly.

Yes, some opinions will seem far less supportable than others. But it's still not a concrete thing. There is no such TANGIBLE thing as a GOAT anything, unless of course we're speaking of Lebron. So to say there is "no way no how" Jack Nicklaus can be compared with Tiger, ESPECIALLY when his ability to sustain dominance was likely enhanced artificially... it's obvious hyperbole. There IS an argument someone could at least make, which is the one I made. Note that I have not said Woods ISNT the best golfer ever. I'm saying it's not some kind of scientific fact.

If you disagree with that, that's fine. We can disagree.

You keep going back to Tiger/Jack and definitions about GOAT as if it has any relevance to what I'm arguing.

My strife was more about your reasoning behind why you think Tigers reputation was questionable to begin with. You stated that after the biogenesis scandal broke is when Tigers downfall happened. In reality his downfall started after he won the US open in 08 on a torn ACL and partially broken leg. Then the scandal of his cheating broke out in late 09. So his downfall started 4 years prior to the biogenesis scandal coming to light, and there was never a strong link to him ever using steroids (you compared woods incredibly weak link to peds and bonds very strong link as if they were on equal grounds). And even if you want to use the weak 'evidence' as proof of his using them, it was after he had already won his 14 majors and dominated the sport.

Basically, nothing you said originally actually holds up so your entire thought process for why it's unfair to say 'Tiger > Jack definitely' is based off false premises and weak associations to PEDs. I don't really care about the comparison itself and never did. Nor do i care to entertain the whole 'well the whole GOAT thing is subjective so it's all pointless anyhow' red herring either.

[j3lademaster]

He arguably should be 1.

Tiger
Novak
LeBron
Messi
Mayweather
Ronaldo
Jones
Phelps
Bolt
Brady

Should be the top 10, and you can mix up the order and it'd still be legit.

You can do a reasonable job if you actually know sports, but ESPN doesn't care about credibility.there needs to be a short explanation of the criteria they used to determine this list. There are like 5 wnba players too many imo, and to omit the likes of McGregor, Khabib and Zhang Yining(ping pong) for them seems wild.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So Tom Brady isn't the GOAT of his sport because championships are a team achievement?Brady had 3 MVP awards and was one of the elite quarterbacks for 20 years. He owns probably half of the career passing records and is high on any passer stat list of any importance. This is before we attempt to quantify what it means to play for 22 years and have half of your seasons ends in the Superbowl, winning it a full third of your seasons. A championship is not an individual achievement (but FYI an MVP award absolutely is) but for an NFL QB to give his team a shot at winning a Championship for almost every year of the 21st century just puts Brady in a different class. Kobe Bryant belongs on the list but for three of his five rings he was the second best player and he only had one MVP award. He didn't have a "greatest ever" level of career. Not even in the discussion.

[j3lademaster]

Brady had mediocre receivers most of the time, too.

[Neal Romer]

You keep going back to Tiger/Jack and definitions about GOAT as if it has any relevance to what I'm arguing.

My strife was more about your reasoning behind why you think Tigers reputation was questionable to begin with. You stated that after the biogenesis scandal broke is when Tigers downfall happened. In reality his downfall started after he won the US open in 08 on a torn ACL and partially broken leg. Then the scandal of his cheating broke out in late 09. So his downfall started 4 years prior to the biogenesis scandal coming to light, and there was never a strong link to him ever using steroids (you compared woods incredibly weak link to peds and bonds very strong link as if they were on equal grounds). And even if you want to use the weak 'evidence' as proof of his using them, it was after he had already won his 14 majors and dominated the sport.

Basically, nothing you said originally actually holds up so your entire thought process for why it's unfair to say 'Tiger > Jack definitely' is based off false premises and weak associations to PEDs. I don't really care about the comparison itself and never did. Nor do i care to entertain the whole 'well the whole GOAT thing is subjective so it's all pointless anyhow' red herring either.

That's fine tbh. I accept that we have different recollections of the timeline and different interpretations of the implications. No biggie.

[guy]

Floyd Mayweather being #25 is pretty low and surprising to me. I get why people downplay him and his achievements, but that low is still surprising.

Kevin Garnett being above Floyd and Peyton is also surprising.

[guy]

Also, maybe I'm ignorant, but after thinking about it more, the emphasis on the Olympics is pretty wild to me. Nobody cares about alot of those sports outside of the Olympics, which is every 4 years for like 2 weeks. So basically, with 6 Olympics since 2000, these athletes have mattered at most for 12 weeks in this century, and thats if someone has played in every Olympics, which they haven't. So basically they are relevant for the same amount of time as 1 finals run for an NBA player.

[SouBeachTalents]

Floyd Mayweather being #25 is pretty low and surprising to me. I get why people downplay him and his achievements, but that low is still surprising.

Kevin Garnett being above Floyd and Peyton is also surprising.
Aaron Rodgers ranking is fvcking insane.

[SATAN]

ESPN is cancer.

[BurningHammer]

Whoever made the list doesn't seem to care about popularity and that's one of the most important factors. How many kids grow up wanting to be a great basketball or soccer star vs a great swimmer? LeBron James or Lionel Messi might just be #1 in a billion. You don't see pick up swimming races like you do pick up basketball games.

There are more places to swim than places to plays basketball for sure though.

[ArbitraryWater]

Floyd Mayweather being #25 is pretty low and surprising to me. I get why people downplay him and his achievements, but that low is still surprising.

Kevin Garnett being above Floyd and Peyton is also surprising.


You speak like this entire list isnt batshit insane :oldlol:

[iamgine]

This seem decent at first glance:

4. LeBron James, Basketball
10. Kobe Bryant, Basketball
14. Stephen Curry, Basketball
16. Tim Duncan, Basketball
17. Shaquille O'Neal, Basketball
23. Kevin Garnett, Basketball
28. Nikola Jokic, Basketball
35. Dwyane Wade, Basketball
39. Kevin Durant, Basketball
41. Dirk Nowitzki, Basketball
42. Giannis Antetokounmpo, Basketball
51. Steve Nash, Basketball
67. James Harden, Basketball
69. Jason Kidd, Basketball
83. Chris Paul, Basketball
85. Kawhi Leonard, Basketball

[Manny98]

At a first glance Mahomes is at least 10 spots too high and Mayweather is 10 spots too low

[red1]

Serena Williams over messi brady and lebron :oldlol:


No one gives a **** about women's sports. Give me 3 months to train and even a rookie like me would beat her at tennis


Sick of this inflating of female sports. No one cares.

[Neal Romer]

This seem decent at first glance:

4. LeBron James, Basketball
10. Kobe Bryant, Basketball
14. Stephen Curry, Basketball
16. Tim Duncan, Basketball
17. Shaquille O'Neal, Basketball
23. Kevin Garnett, Basketball
28. Nikola Jokic, Basketball
35. Dwyane Wade, Basketball
39. Kevin Durant, Basketball
41. Dirk Nowitzki, Basketball
42. Giannis Antetokounmpo, Basketball
51. Steve Nash, Basketball
67. James Harden, Basketball
69. Jason Kidd, Basketball
83. Chris Paul, Basketball
85. Kawhi Leonard, Basketball

Harden above Kidd, Paul, and Leonard is crazy.

Even if you consider their resumes comparable (I'd argue his is worst) but even if you say it's equal... who is TAKING him over any of those guys for a career OR prime for prime?

It's just weird to me how overrated Harden got to be because of regular season systemball in Houston. The guy has no winning attributes.

[Axe]

I think hamilton should be higher than some names listed here.


This seem decent at first glance:

4. LeBron James, Basketball
10. Kobe Bryant, Basketball
14. Stephen Curry, Basketball
16. Tim Duncan, Basketball
17. Shaquille O'Neal, Basketball
23. Kevin Garnett, Basketball
28. Nikola Jokic, Basketball
35. Dwyane Wade, Basketball
39. Kevin Durant, Basketball
41. Dirk Nowitzki, Basketball
42. Giannis Antetokounmpo, Basketball
51. Steve Nash, Basketball
67. James Harden, Basketball
69. Jason Kidd, Basketball
83. Chris Paul, Basketball
85. Kawhi Leonard, Basketball
Funny how kawhi has two finals mvps but is at the bottom of this list. Tho i guess it's more on the lack of league mvps and not playing that much in the rs.

[BurningHammer]

This seem decent at first glance:

4. LeBron James, Basketball
10. Kobe Bryant, Basketball
14. Stephen Curry, Basketball
16. Tim Duncan, Basketball
17. Shaquille O'Neal, Basketball
23. Kevin Garnett, Basketball
28. Nikola Jokic, Basketball
35. Dwyane Wade, Basketball
39. Kevin Durant, Basketball
41. Dirk Nowitzki, Basketball
42. Giannis Antetokounmpo, Basketball
51. Steve Nash, Basketball
67. James Harden, Basketball
69. Jason Kidd, Basketball
83. Chris Paul, Basketball
85. Kawhi Leonard, Basketball

Yeah, Kawhi one is the problem. He shouldn't be below 3 guys who didn't win the championship.

[gengiskhan]

Yeah, Kawhi one is the problem. He shouldn't be below 3 guys who didn't win the championship.

How is LBJ in Top 5 Athletes of the 21st century when he could not even participate in a competitive Slam Dunk Championship let alone win a slam dunk championship and actually defended his title for following year.

Top 5 LBJ ahead of Usain Bolt, the actual organic GOAT is laughable by ESPN here.

Cannot imagine Bolt's "triple triple" in 3 different olympics is insulted this deliberately and badly by ESPN just to appease Klutch Sports.

If PHELP is GOAT athlete, its because of going 8 for 8 in 2008 finishes off with 23 Golds.

If BOLT is 2nd GOAT, its because of going 'triple triple' in 3 consequitive olympics 2008, 2012 and 2016.

What has LBJ don for being at 4th Spot?

[John8204]

And GSP at 76.

lmao.

Nothing adding up here.

Yeah no Ronda, Brock, Couture, Jones or Fedor is insane.

Also Tom Brady as an athlete over Tiger SMH

[Charlie Sheen]

53. Derek Jeter, Baseball

He cannot be this high.

There are too many players arguably better than he was who I did not see on this list. Jeter was a heck of a lot closer to Chipper, Manny, Ichiro, Posey than Trout, Bonds, Pujols and Arod. Ohtani already has a better career than Jeter.

[SouBeachTalents]

He cannot be this high.

There are too many players arguably better than he was who I did not see on this list. Jeter was a heck of a lot closer to Chipper, Manny, Ichiro, Posey than Trout, Bonds, Pujols and Arod. Ohtani already has a better career than Jeter.
And plus, even if you wanted to go by rings, 3 of his were won before 2000.

[Carbine]

He cannot be this high.

There are too many players arguably better than he was who I did not see on this list. Jeter was a heck of a lot closer to Chipper, Manny, Ichiro, Posey than Trout, Bonds, Pujols and Arod. Ohtani already has a better career than Jeter.

I just want to point out that Posey is levels below Jeter career wise. It's not even close.

Posey had 45 career WAR and was very underwhelming in his playoff career. His bag declined significantly from it's playoff form.

Jeter finished his career with 71 WAR and had one of the most storied post season careers from a SS ever.

Saying Ohtani has already had a better career than Jeter is also weird to say. Better player? Yes, better career.... It's undeniable that like Posey, it's not even close.

Ohtani has 40 career WAR and if you go see his playoff career..... It doesn't exist.

[Charlie Sheen]

I just want to point out that Posey is levels below Jeter career wise. It's not even close.

Posey had 45 career WAR and was very underwhelming in his playoff career. His bag declined significantly from it's playoff form.

Jeter finished his career with 71 WAR and had one of the most storied post season careers from a SS ever.

Saying Ohtani has already had a better career than Jeter is also weird to say. Better player? Yes, better career.... It's undeniable that like Posey, it's not even close.

Ohtani has 40 career WAR and if you go see his playoff career..... It doesn't exist.

I will take Shohei being the best player and in the game for 3+ seasons over Jeter's entire career all day long. He was the best pitcher in the game for the last 2 years before the injury.

Posey was a catcher of course he is going to lose career WAR. He played in half as many games as Jeter! Fangraphs values Jeter's defensive value less than bref. 58 to 73 career WAR there and he beats Joe Mauer a first ballot hall of fame catcher in both. He is without question Jeter's peer.

You are saying a guy who caught every inning for their first two ws rings was underwhelming :lol

[Carbine]

I am saying that because it is true. He hit .667 OPS for his playoff career and .831 in the regular season. That's a massive drop off.

Baseball doesn't work like what you're saying in regards to Ohtani being the best for three years trumps Jeter's career.

You may take that peak 3 years over Jeter's entire career but it's pretty much universally accepted that is not how careers are ranked in baseball. It's a counting stat Sport, whereas basketball rankings factor in peak considerably more.

[Charlie Sheen]

I am saying that because it is true. He hit .667 OPS for his playoff career and .831 in the regular season. That's a massive drop off.

The guy who had a full season's worth of postseason games has numbers closer to his career averages while the guy who played 60 games does not. You can give Jeter credit for what he did, but you cannot penalize Posey for not having the same opportunity.


Baseball doesn't work like what you're saying in regards to Ohtani being the best for three years trumps Jeter's career.

You may take that peak 3 years over Jeter's entire career but it's pretty much universally accepted that is not how careers are ranked in baseball. It's a counting stat Sport, whereas basketball rankings factor in peak considerably more.

When you say baseball, you mean hall of fame voting does not work that way. There is always the one exception everyone points to though... Koufax. Shohei is like nothing anyone has seen before. The best hitter AND pitcher is the same player. The run he is on is even better than Koufax... working on his third MVP in the last 4 years and the season he did not win he finished second.

[Carbine]

Just for the record Ohtani has never placed top 3 in CY Young (best pitcher) voting in any season of his career. Where do you get this "best pitcher" from?

Huge Ohtani fan by the way. He was amongst the best pitchers but was never THE best. Still incredible either way.

[rmt]

Serena at #2 is a joke. Don't get me started on women's tennis.

They get the same amount of money at GS as men for a little over half the work. They can win a GS with 14 sets while the men as many at 35 - with the same pay. At the Miami Open, the stadium clears after a men's match (to watch other men's matches on other courts) when the women play. Even Serena herself has admitted:

"So I'm like, if I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in like five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes," she added. But John McEnroe got crucified for saying that the 100th man would beat Serena. Shoot, any decent 17 year old male tennis player would beat her - after all, 17 year old Boris Becker won Wimbledon and so did 17 year olds Michael Chang and Mats Wilander at French Open.

[Charlie Sheen]

Just for the record Ohtani has never placed top 3 in CY Young (best pitcher) voting in any season of his career. Where do you get this "best pitcher" from?

Huge Ohtani fan by the way. He was amongst the best pitchers but was never THE best. Still incredible either way.

You are right he does not have the trophies. Admittedly he does not take on the workload to win the award. cya is misleading and i think you know that because you said amongst the best.
Watched his entire career. I am an Angels fan. so i conced i might be coming on too strong with some homer influence. I do not think it is an outrageous claim that he is the best pitcher thought because voices from the old school and new school support what I saw:


Listening to people speak candidly who have been around the game for a long time like Dusty Baker.

Astros manager Dusty Baker on Shohei Ohtani: “That’s the best I’ve seen him throw. He had 95-99 and was dotting the fastball low and away. That’s the best command and control. Boy, he’s some athlete. To do that and go play right field, too."
— Rhett Bollinger (@RhettBollinger)May 12, 2021

Baseball nerds like pitching ninja https://youtu.be/_R7NQHQPEyA?si=qckdu-uHjDlDlrOQ

[Charlie Sheen]

And plus, even if you wanted to go by rings, 3 of his were won before 2000.

Usually there is a swing the other way for great not goat players when they retire. Pippen gets way more love now than he did when he was playing while Iverson is the opposite he was way more loved during his day than he is now. Jeter is unique. He is even more overrated in retirement :lol

As much as it hurts me to say this... Kobe is the best comparison for basketball. Included in a class of player he did not quite belong and he is going to be ranked favorably in his retirement because of his passing.

[90sgoat]

What a shitty list. Where are the MMA and boxing guys?

Where's Connor McGregor, where is Fedor Emilianenko?

Where is Tyson Fury? Klitsckho?

Absolutely retarded list.

[Wally450]

Floyd at 25 is a joke.

[ShawkFactory]

Serena at #2 is a joke. Don't get me started on women's tennis.

They get the same amount of money at GS as men for a little over half the work. They can win a GS with 14 sets while the men as many at 35 - with the same pay. At the Miami Open, the stadium clears after a men's match (to watch other men's matches on other courts) when the women play. Even Serena herself has admitted:

"So I'm like, if I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in like five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes," she added. But John McEnroe got crucified for saying that the 100th man would beat Serena. Shoot, any decent 17 year old male tennis player would beat her - after all, 17 year old Boris Becker won Wimbledon and so did 17 year olds Michael Chang and Mats Wilander at French Open.

I’m very confused by this. Obviously men’s tennis players will beat women. What does that have to do with Serena and her standing in women’s tennis?

[rmt]

IÂ’m very confused by this. Obviously menÂ’s tennis players will beat women. What does that have to do with Serena and her standing in womenÂ’s tennis?

If you are separating men and women's sports like that, would switching Lebron at #4 and this Diana Taurasi at #21 be ok with you (just because Turasi is the best in women's basketball)? I think most on this board would be outraged at that - I certainly would be, and I'm no Lebron fan.

Even if comparing standing within men's and women's tennis, they have Djokovic (24 GSs and all-time men's holder) at #11 while Serena (23 GSs) is not even the all-time women's holder (Margaret Smith Court is). We won't even mention putting Federer (and I'm a Fed fan) at #6 compared to Djokovic at #11 (Djokovic no matter how I dislike him is undisputed GOAT). I am sick and tired of this DEI strain and women's tennis (in general) sponging off men's tennis - stand on your own two feet and get paid based on your own merit, work and popularity. Enough ranting from me.

[ShawkFactory]

If you are separating men and women's sports like that, would switching Lebron at #4 and this Diana Taurasi at #21 be ok with you (just because Turasi is the best in women's basketball)? I think most on this board would be outraged at that - I certainly would be, and I'm no Lebron fan.

Even if comparing standing within men's and women's tennis, they have Djokovic (24 GSs and all-time men's holder) at #11 while Serena (23 GSs) is not even the all-time women's holder (Margaret Smith Court is). We won't even mention putting Federer (and I'm a Fed fan) at #6 compared to Djokovic at #11 (Djokovic no matter how I dislike him is undisputed GOAT). I am sick and tired of this DEI strain and women's tennis (in general) sponging off men's tennis - stand on your own two feet and get paid based on your own merit, work and popularity. Enough ranting from me.

Taurasi and Serena are complete apples and oranges. Popularity seems to be a big factor on this list. Serena was to women’s tennis was Caitlin Clark is now to women’s basketball, only with the championships and GOAT of her sport status to back it up. She was a complete icon and as popular, if not more so, than any men’s player at the time.

[SouBeachTalents]

Usually there is a swing the other way for great not goat players when they retire. Pippen gets way more love now than he did when he was playing while Iverson is the opposite he was way more loved during his day than he is now. Jeter is unique. He is even more overrated in retirement :lol

As much as it hurts me to say this... Kobe is the best comparison for basketball. Included in a class of player he did not quite belong and he is going to be ranked favorably in his retirement because of his passing.
I honestly always make the Jeter comparison to Kobe lol, eerily similar circumstances, both won 5 titles for the marquee franchise of their sport, including the last 3peat, both have multiple undeserved defensive accolades, and both were insanely overhyped due to playing in the market they did.

Kobe was obv much better in his sport than Jeter was, while Jeter actually lived up to his clutch reputation a lot more than Kobe did.

[rmt]

Taurasi and Serena are complete apples and oranges. Popularity seems to be a big factor on this list. Serena was to womenÂ’s tennis was Caitlin Clark is now to womenÂ’s basketball, only with the championships and GOAT of her sport status to back it up. She was a complete icon and as popular, if not more so, than any menÂ’s player at the time.

If popularity is this listÂ’s main/major factor, then it should be so named and even then, Federer is FAR more popular than Serena.

IMO, Serena is not GOAT of her sport - Margaret Smith Court has 66 GSs (24 of which are singles - the all time record holder of both) but is reviled because sheÂ’s a pastor and of her stance on gays. In todayÂ’s woke society, Billie Jean King (an American) went to Australia and publicly urged players to boycott playing in arena named after Australian Margaret Court (because of her religious views). This from an American whose premier tennis court was once named after a musician (Louis Armstrong) - of course no one dared question why our premier tennis court (at that time) was being named after a musician having absolutely nothing to do with tennis - for fear of being called a racist.

[ShawkFactory]

It’s like comparing Mikan or something to Jordan. Court played in the 60s before the sport had fully developed into what it became.

Regardless of the woke rants you’re going on (which leads me to believe you may feel some sort of way personally about Serena), Serena’s finals matches in the early-mid 2000s were routinely pulling in more views than the men’s finals. Her level of dominance in a modern game against her peers was unmatched. And again..she had the popularity to boot. Much like Tiger, she helped bring a new demographic to the sport.

Should she be #2 here? I don’t know and frankly don’t care. But she’s among the most dominant and popular in their sport anyone has been this century.

[ArbitraryWater]

I’m very confused by this. Obviously men’s tennis players will beat women. What does that have to do with Serena and her standing in women’s tennis?


Doesnt make sense to combine them for this list. Its 2 different worlds.

[ShawkFactory]

Doesnt make sense to combine them for this list. Its 2 different worlds.

They’re already combining 20 different worlds…

We really gonna try to compare Lewis Hamilton to Kobe? It’s all silly anyway.

[Nowoco]

I mean the whole thing is a nonsense but Kobe ahead of Nadal and Djokovic is ludicrous.

As is Simone Biles being ahead of Usain Bolt. Bolt totally obliterated a sport that almost every single person on this planet has done at some point in their lives. His records will likely never be broken in our lifetimes and he dominated three Olympics as well as multiple World Championships. Bolt's record is almost perfect and I wouldn't argue against him being #1. He probably has a better case than anyone else.

[ArbitraryWater]

Btw...


















Aaron Donald?!

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm surprised how little Aaron Rodgers at 91st has been mentioned. Besides Kobe being ahead of Djokovic & Nadal, that was probably the worst ranking I saw on the list. There's literally no explanation for putting Peyton Manning nearly SEVENTY spots ahead of him :lol

[j3lademaster]

Btw...


















Aaron Donald?!Aaron Donald is fkin crazy. The average pass rush win rate against single blocks was 17% during Donald's 5 year peak, and Donald posted 18% rush win rate against DOUBLE BLOCKS. And he sees real double blocks, not these bringing in a blocking tightend or fullback to help "doubleblocks". You can even make an argument 20 is a bit low, but I understand since football isn't as popular as basketball and soccer on the world stage. Still hard to deny a goat prime like that.

[tpols]

It feels like just a media popularity contest. All these niche sports that have only been around for like 100 years.

Usain Bolt is the fastest human being ever recorded on land. He should be easy #1.

Where's Fedor? Greatest fighter ever. Humans have been doing hand to hand combat for 1000s of years.

Where's Brian Shaw? Greatest strongman of all time... a sport that spans 1000s of years as well.

The only thing this list got right was Phelps... fastest in the water ever.

[ShawkFactory]

It feels like just a media popularity contest. All these niche sports that have only been around for like 100 years.

Usain Bolt is the fastest human being ever recorded on land. He should be easy #1.

Where's Fedor? Greatest fighter ever. Humans have been doing hand to hand combat for 1000s of years.

Where's Brian Shaw? Greatest strongman of all time... a sport that spans 1000s of years as well.

The only thing this list got right was Phelps... fastest in the water ever.

They’ve recorded sprint times, strongman weight records, and fights for about the same length of times that all these niche sports you speak of have been around though. We have no certainty whatsoever that Bolt, Phelps, Shaw or whomever else are the most gifted in these areas ever.

[j3lademaster]

It feels like just a media popularity contest. All these niche sports that have only been around for like 100 years.

Usain Bolt is the fastest human being ever recorded on land. He should be easy #1.

Where's Fedor? Greatest fighter ever. Humans have been doing hand to hand combat for 1000s of years.

Where's Brian Shaw? Greatest strongman of all time... a sport that spans 1000s of years as well.

The only thing this list got right was Phelps... fastest in the water ever.If it's a popularity contest, McGregor had a run where he was the most popular athlete in combat sports for a few years and he isn't even on here. ESPN needs to provide a small explanation of how they came up with the list so we have some idea of where they're coming from.

[tpols]

They’ve recorded sprint times, strongman weight records, and fights for about the same length of times that all these niche sports you speak of have been around though. We have no certainty whatsoever that Bolt, Phelps, Shaw or whomever else are the most gifted in these areas ever.

The point is guys like Fedor and Shaw aren't even on the list despite dominating sports that go back 1000s of years. There's always been fighters and strongmen going back to the beginning of human history. Sports like tennis and basketball and football are only 100 years old or less.

[ShawkFactory]

The point is guys like Fedor and Shaw aren't even on the list despite dominating sports that go back 1000s of years. There's always been fighters and strongmen going back to the beginning of human history. Sports like tennis and basketball and football are only 100 years old or less.

I understand your point and I feel like the post you quoted addressed it…

Do we know what kind of weight strongmen in the year 232 were putting up? Could Fedor hang with the ancient fighters of their time? We have no idea. All we have are the modern records of such sports, and those records don’t much predate baseball, golf, tennis, or various others.

[tpols]

I understand your point and I feel like the post you quoted addressed it…

Do we know what kind of weight strongmen in the year 232 were putting up? Could Fedor hang with the ancient fighters of their time? We have no idea. All we have are the modern records of such sports, and those records don’t much predate baseball, golf, tennis, or various others.

This is a list for 2000 plus though. They dominated two of the oldest sports to ever exist in that time frame and didn't even make top 100.

[ShawkFactory]

This is a list for 2000 plus though. They dominated two of the oldest sports to ever exist in that time frame and didn't even make top 100.

That’s fine if you have gripes with someone not making the list who has dominated their sport in the time frame given. But the sports being older doesn’t matter at all is all I’m saying.