Lebron is 1st guy to have sidekick outplay the MVP - should a player always win here?

[3ba11]

Should a player always win if their sidekick outplays the league MVP, i.e. would Malone have won the 98' Finals if Stockton outplayed MVP Jordan?

[gengiskhan]

1996 Jordan won FMVP

Kemp, a 23-10-2-1-2 lost to Jordan, a 27-5-4-2

thought it was pretty close.

[3ba11]

1996 Jordan won FMVP

Kemp, a 23-10-2-1-2 lost to Jordan, a 27-5-4-2

thought it was pretty close.


Jordan outscored Kemp by 4 ppg, so he didn't GET outscored by 5 ppg like Curry versus Kyrie - so it's a faulty example.. Lebron is the only guy in history that had a sidekick outplay league MVP's, such as Kyrie outplaying Curry, or even AD outplaying Jokic and Wade outplaying Dirk.

Lebron had 3 sidekicks outplay league MVP's, while no one else even had one.

And based on PPG and usage, Kemp was 1st option for the regular season, playoffs and Finals - I'm sure he would've won if Payton had outplayed MJ.. Also the series was over after 3 games, so those are the relevant stats that show MJ averaged 31 and 2.3 TO's, which destroys Kemp's 25 and 5.0 TO's.. Again, a bad example on various levels.

[8Ball]

Dennis Rodman received a bunch of FMVP votes in 1996.

LMFAO

[3ba11]

Dennis Rodman received a bunch of FMVP votes in 1996.

LMFAO


Lebron is the only guy in history that had a sidekick outplay a league MVP, which is why he won the 16' Finals..

Infact, Lebron had 3 sidekicks outplay league MVP's, while no one else even had one... Kyrie outplayed Curry, while AD outplayed Jokic and Wade outplayed Dirk - again, no one else in history even had 1 sidekick outplay an MVP, let alone 3... #LeFraud

[And1AllDay]

wait 2016 ehhh hmmm didnt bran lead every player in every stat? :oldlol:

next

[tpols]

Kobe pretty much destroyed Duncan in 2001 but I don't know if we can call him a sidekick.

[Carbine]

Kareem outplayed Bird in '85 while winning FMVP. So it has happened before. Another lie.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe pretty much destroyed Duncan in 2001 but I don't know if we can call him a sidekick.

Iverson was the MVP in 2001.

[tpols]

Iverson was the MVP in 2001.

But he was still an MVP talent which is the point. Kobe wasn't really a sidekick though he was a superstar. Kyrie is a great player but he's not really a superstar. So it is incredible that he destroyed Curry @ his absolute peak H2H.

[3ba11]

Kareem outplayed Bird in '85 while winning FMVP. So it has happened before. Another lie.


Kareem was 1st option in regular season, playoffs and Finals, so no

so again, only Lebron had a sidekick outplay the league MVP, which is why he won the 16' Finals.

[tpols]

Kareem outplayed Bird in '85 while winning FMVP. So it has happened before. Another lie.

You're really comparing Kareem to Kyrie?... lmao.

[3ba11]

But he was still an MVP talent which is the point. Kobe wasn't really a sidekick though he was a superstar. Kyrie is a great player but he's not really a superstar. So it is incredible that he destroyed Curry @ his absolute peak H2H.


01' vs Spurs might be the closest example and it was a blow-out win (no one can lose in this scenario), but it wasn't the point I was making.. the point is that only lebron had a sidekick outplay the actual league MVP, which is why he won the 16' Finals - this is the kind of unprecedented help Lebron had, so he won the 16' Finals.. it's simple and clear-cut for these bron stans..

And if we expand it to include sidekicks outplaying any former, current or future MVP (not just the current winner), I believe that Lebron is still the only guy to have a sidekick outplay an MVP (former, current or future MVP), and he enjoyed this unprecedented help 3 times... (AD outplayed Jokic, Kyrie outplayed Curry, and Wade outplayed Dirk).. Even if I'm wrong on this part, I'm right about Lebron being the only guy to have a sidekick outplay a current league MVP, thereby winning the 16' Finals.

[Carbine]

Kareem was 1st option in regular season, playoffs and Finals, so no

so again, only Lebron had a sidekick outplay the league MVP, which is why he won the 16' Finals.

It was Magics team by then on the floor. Magic was at his peak as a playmaker/passer that year setting everyone up for easy shots.

[Carbine]

You're really comparing Kareem to Kyrie?... lmao.

I'm comparing second best players out playing a MVP in the finals. Stop trying to make everything an argument it's not a good look.

[Kblaze8855]

Kareem outplayed Bird in '85 while winning FMVP. So it has happened before. Another lie.

It’s not even particularly rare. It happened literally the first time they created the MVP award. Bob Pettit won the first mvp then shot 30% getting eliminated and outplayed by at least two people on the other team. As with all things like this, you can add qualifiers and find reasons not to count this situation or that situation but the MVP being arguably outplayed by two people on the other team isn’t unheard of.

I found several arguable examples off the top of my head. One could argue three Knicks out played Wes Unseld in the same series when he was MVP. And he didn’t even play poorly(statistically). You could argue it isn’t even the first time it happened for Lebron. Statistically at least Lebron and Bosh both outplayed Rose in 2011.

How much better was Kobe than Ray Allen in 08 when Ray shot 71% true shooting wise to Kobe’s 51? Does 5 more points on 10 more shots a game make that up?

Maybe. Maybe not.

You could argue if the mvp outplayed the other teams second or third guy in a lot of cases.

[tpols]

I'm comparing second best players out playing a MVP in the finals. Stop trying to make everything an argument it's not a good look.

Thats a projection on your end. Nobodies surprised Kareem outplayed Bird since he's a top 5-10 GOAT. Kyrie totally outplaying UMVP Curry was a surprise.

[tpols]

Also... and yall are gonna hate me for this because I'm giving 3ball more ammo. :lol

But Chris Bosh outplayed MVP Derrick Rose in the 2011 ECFs. It was probably the best series of Boshs career and Rose really shot like ass while Bosh caught fire.

So even Lebrons 3rd option was capable of outplaying MVP opposition.

[Carbine]

Kareem was 37 and Bird was in his absolute peak. This wasn't Kareem from '80 or '81.

It would be like Duncan out playing Lebron in the finals 2013 or 2014 and not being surprised. You would have to be out of touch with reality to think that is a non surprising outcome.

[3ba11]

I'm comparing second best players out playing a MVP in the finals. Stop trying to make everything an argument it's not a good look.


Kareem is in the GOAT debate for some people and generally ranked higher than Magic, while also being 1st option (the title says "sidekick outplay the MVP", not the 1st option)

you're just changing the rules to your liking - Kareem is the higher ranked player all-time, while also being 1st option for the 85' regular season, playoffs and Finals... you didn't choose a 2nd option for your examples and in this case chose a bonafide 1st option

[Carbine]

Kareem was Magics sidekick. A great sidekick, but a sidekick nonetheless. It was Magics team by then. It was probably Magics team after Moses curb stomped Kareem a couple years prior but most definitely by '85 Magic was the #1 guy.

[3ba11]

Kareem was Magics sidekick. A great sidekick, but a sidekick nonetheless. It was Magics team by then. It was probably Magics team after Moses curb stomped Kareem a couple years prior but most definitely by '85 Magic was the #1 guy.


apparently you don't know the definition of sidekick - the sidekick is the 2nd-leading scorer, which was clearly Magic until 1987

[Carbine]

Under this logic Bill Russell was a sidekick to Tommy Heinsohn, Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy on the 1957 title winning Celtics

Bill was the sidekick to the sidekicks sidekick.

In 1959 all of those names above plus Frank Ramsey, Sam Jones and Jim Lotcutsoff outscored him.

1960 he was once again the sidekick to the sidekicks sidekick.

1961 third leading scorer

It keeps going on and on. He lead the team two years in scoring in the finals. Every other year he was third or worse.

The problem is nobody thinks Bill was a sidekick, just like nobody thinks Magic was a sidekick in 1985.

[Kblaze8855]

Under this logic Bill Russell was a sidekick to Tommy Heinsohn, Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy on the 1957 title winning Celtics

Bill was the sidekick to the sidekicks sidekick.

In 1959 all of those names above plus Frank Ramsey, Sam Jones and Jim Lotcutsoff outscored him.

1960 he was once again the sidekick to the sidekicks sidekick.

1961 third leading scorer

It keeps going on and on. He lead the team two years in scoring in the finals. Every other year he was third or worse.

The problem is nobody thinks Bill was a sidekick, just like nobody thinks Magic was a sidekick in 1985.


A few people might’ve told you magic was a sidekick in 1985 if people talked that way about those teams at the time. But they didn’t. It’s a ridiculous point anyway. Maurice Lucas led the 77 blazers in scoring in the regular season, the playoffs in general, and the finals in particular. every single person who follows the history of the game knows Bill Walton was not his sidekick though.

Keeping it lakers though Byron Scott led the 88 Lakers in scoring and Worthy was second. Worthy led them in scoring in the 87 and 88 title runs.

Means absolutely nothing far as who was the leader and sidekick.

[dankok8]

There was no sidekick on the 1985 Lakers. Magic/Kareem were 1a/1b. But both outplayed Bird in the Finals so it can be an example of a "sidekick" outplaying the MVP.

[tpols]

Got another one.

Tony Parker outplayed Lebron in the 2007 Finals by a good amount as sidekick to Tim Duncan.


https://youtu.be/2suSozWnri4?si=t_69iqTXta5i9oix

[Kblaze8855]

Well for 2007 the mvp was Dirk…but it also fits. You could argue Dirk was the 5th best performing player that series after at least 2 Warriors and arguably 3. Stephen Jackson cooked them to close out the series while Dirk had 8 points on 15% shooting. Outscored him for the series overall as well. At least he and Baron outplayed MVP Dirk.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe was the sidekick for most of his titles.

[Carbine]

The problem with that is besides 2000, he was always considered one of the 3 or 4 best players in the league for all his other titles. I heard countless times on Non Laker broadcasts back then that the Lakers had "the two best players in the NBA" in 2001 and 2002 seasons. This is not typical for a "sidekick"

[ShawkFactory]

The problem with that is besides 2000, he was always considered one of the 3 or 4 best players in the league for all his other titles. I heard countless times on Non Laker broadcasts back then that the Lakers had "the two best players in the NBA" in 2001 and 2002 seasons. This is not typical for a "sidekick"

I don’t know about “the two best”. 2 of the best 3 was perhaps fair. I think Duncan was the best player in the world by 2002. Had an argument for 2001 as well.

The Spurs were not a very good roster at all. He did so much in both ends and almost single-handedly made them a “title contender”. I put that in quotes because they were never going to beat the Lakers those years.

[Hey Yo]

apparently you don't know the definition of sidekick - the sidekick is the 2nd-leading scorer, which was clearly Magic until 1987

Rodman, the 5th option in 96 took multiple FMVP votes away from an MVP and FMVP.

First and only time the 5th option has done that. Will never happen again.

[3ba11]

There was no sidekick on the 1985 Lakers. Magic/Kareem were 1a/1b. But both outplayed Bird in the Finals so it can be an example of a "sidekick" outplaying the MVP.


"Sidekick" is a term that began in the 90's to denote the 2nd-leading scorer.. It came about because the GOAT had established an unprecedented gap in stats and pecking order that had never been seen before.. Since then the term has been a convenient and concise way to describe the 2nd-leading scorer that fits nicely into thread titles.

So again, the only time a sidekick outplayed the current league MVP is when Kyrie outscored Curry in the 2016 Finals, and this unprecedented help is why Lebron won that series, even without considering other factors like injuries, suspensions, etc..

Tpols and others have correctly pointed out several examples of sidekicks outplaying past or future MVP's, but only Lebron enjoyed a sidekick that outplayed the current league MVP in peak form, which is why he won the 16' Finals.. Again, if Stockton had outplayed MVP Jordan, then Malone easily wins the 98' Finals - it's impossible to lose in this scenario.

Of course, Lebron is also the only guy that enjoyed a sidekick hitting the game-winner and last points in Game 7 of the championship... Lebron won 2 Finals because his teammates hit the greatest shots in Finals history, and also because his sidekick outplayed the current MVP (unprecedented), and also because he got unprecedented suspensions of opponent players (the league-leader in RAPM that year)..

Lebron was basically handed every title that if you look closely - he played babies in 12' and was bailed out in 13' & 16' via teammate bailout or suspension, while 20' was a 2nd option ring.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Is Lebron the 1st guy in history to have his "sidekick" or 2nd-leading scorer outplay the current league MVP??

It's important that it's the current MVP because they're the "life blood" of the team - that's why they won MVP... So only Lebron enjoyed this kind of unprecedented help where his sidekick outplays the "life blood" of the other team and most valuable player in the league (the hottest thing going in the league).

Shouldn't a player always win in this spot?.. i.e. wouldn't Malone have easily won the 98' Finals if Stockton outplayed MVP Jordan?.. The Jazz played the Bulls to a standstill with Stockton getting destroyed by MJ, so surely they would've won with ease if Stockton outplayed MJ instead..

The Bulls are considered the best dynasty of the modern era, so they're the best team to try this scenario out on - if it works with them (it does), then it works with every scenario - it's simply impossible to lose if your sidekick outplays the current league MVP, even without considering other factors like injuries or unprecedented suspensions.

[dankok8]

Got another one.

Tony Parker outplayed Lebron in the 2007 Finals by a good amount as sidekick to Tim Duncan.


https://youtu.be/2suSozWnri4?si=t_69iqTXta5i9oix

:lol

[Shaquille O'Neal]

"Sidekick" is a term that began in the 90's to denote the 2nd-leading scorer.. It came about because the GOAT had established an unprecedented gap in stats and pecking order that had never been seen before.. Since then the term has been a convenient and concise way to describe the 2nd-leading scorer that fits nicely into thread titles.

So again, the only time a sidekick outplayed the current league MVP is when Kyrie outscored Curry in the 2016 Finals, and this unprecedented help is why Lebron won that series, even without considering other factors like injuries, suspensions, etc..

Tpols and others have correctly pointed out several examples of sidekicks outplaying past or future MVP's, but only Lebron enjoyed a sidekick that outplayed the current league MVP in peak form, which is why he won the 16' Finals.. Again, if Stockton had outplayed MVP Jordan, then Malone easily wins the 98' Finals - it's impossible to lose in this scenario.

Of course, Lebron is also the only guy that enjoyed a sidekick hitting the game-winner and last points in Game 7 of the championship... Lebron won 2 Finals because his teammates hit the greatest shots in Finals history, and also because his sidekick outplayed the current MVP (unprecedented), and also because he got unprecedented suspensions of opponent players (the league-leader in RAPM that year)..

Lebron was basically handed every title that if you look closely - he played babies in 12' and was bailed out in 13' & 16' via teammate bailout or suspension, while 20' was a 2nd option ring.

All very good points - one other thing about that 2016 ring & the GSW people forget about: They only lost 9 times in the regular season (73-9). They went 15-9 in the playoffs! OKC took them to 7 games, and they lost 2 other games in earlier rounds. This was a team that spent itself chasing the 72-10 record and was no playoff juggernaut. This leaves the 2016 warriors with an overall 88-18 season record (their 1st round was best of 7; not so in '96) + no chip. The 96 Bulls went 15-3 in the playoffs, so an 87-13 (87% winning record). I doubt this dominance will ever be beaten, and the scoring champ, league MVP, finals MVP, all-star MVP for '96 was obviously the GOAT. No other combination of a single season awards + team record exist like that year for any player other than Mike.

[3ba11]

Got another one.

Tony Parker outplayed Lebron in the 2007 Finals by a good amount as sidekick to Tim Duncan.


https://youtu.be/2suSozWnri4?si=t_69iqTXta5i9oix


Parker was the 1st option and leading scorer, so Duncan was the sidekick (2nd-leading scorer)

So there are no other examples aside from the 16' Finals and no one has provided a single example of the 2nd-leading scorer (sidekick) outscoring the current league MVP.

Only Lebron enjoyed that advantage, which is why he won the 16' Finals.

No one has refuted this by providing and example of a 2nd-leading scorer outscoring the league MVP... because it never happened aside from the 16' Finals.

Tpols is just mad because I exposed his fraud Steve Nash for winning the MVP just because he was white (i.e. no amount of Lebron's "genius IQ" would get him MVP if he only averaged 15 ppg... only whites are valued for their intelligence and can win MVP with low scoring like Nash, Dirk, or Jokic... Otherwise you have to be the most charismatic black guy ever to get respected for your intellegence, aka Magic)

[3ba11]

All very good points - one other thing about that 2016 ring & the GSW people forget about: They only lost 9 times in the regular season (73-9). They went 15-9 in the playoffs! OKC took them to 7 games, and they lost 2 other games in earlier rounds. This was a team that spent itself chasing the 72-10 record and was no playoff juggernaut. This leaves the 2016 warriors with an overall 88-18 season record (their 1st round was best of 7; not so in '96) + no chip. The 96 Bulls went 15-3 in the playoffs, so an 87-13 (87% winning record). I doubt this dominance will ever be beaten, and the scoring champ, league MVP, finals MVP, all-star MVP for '96 was obviously the GOAT. No other combination of a single season awards + team record exist like that year for any player other than Mike.


Great points - regular season record has NEVER been a great gauge of true strength and all we need to do is look at the Warriors' on-paper talent to see that they had a "normal" organic roster of 1 franchise player, while Lebron was the preseason favorite (the on-paper favorite) because he had 3 franchise guys on 1 team (super-team) and they were plucked from 3 different teams within the conference.

[tpols]

Steve Nash led the #1 offense and number #1 team assist rank for many years in a row. Brilliant brand of ball and overall output. Even MJ never did that.

Whites tend to have signifigantly less athleticism than blacks so we are forced to use our brains more to succeed. Which is why you see dumpy athletes like Jokic or Dirk or even Duncan dominate Lebron types.

It's ironic because this type of intelligent play is what you always praise, but apparently not if the guy is white.

[3ba11]

.
05' Amare...... 26.6 PER.. 0.243 WS/48.. 4.7 BPM.. 4.4 VORP... 26.0 on 62 TS... 7.6 +/-.. 10.4 net rating
05' Nash........ 22.0 PER.. 0.203 WS/48.. 4.7 BPM.. 4.4 VORP... 15.5 on 61 TS... 8.9 +/-.. 12.9 net rating

* Amare averaged 37 vs Duncan in playoffs and faced max defensive attention (carried scoring load)



Steve Nash led the #1 offense and number #1 team assist rank for many years in a row. Brilliant brand of ball and overall output. Even MJ never did that.

Whites tend to have signifigantly less athleticism than blacks so we are forced to use our brains more to succeed. Which is why you see dumpy athletes like Jokic or Dirk or even Duncan dominate Lebron types.

It's ironic because this type of intelligent play is what you always praise, but apparently not if the guy is white.


One can attribute the turnaround in 2005 to getting rid of "cancer" Marbury, which is similar to the 23' Lakers winning after getting rid of Westbrick... Amare also went from a nobody to All-NBA in 2005 and the next big thing (37 ppg vs Duncan in the playoffs) - he dominated the Suns' statistically in regular season and playoffs..

Accordingly, Nash and his 15 ppg was over-credited with the Suns' turnaround.. And again, blacks aren't capable of getting MVP with 15 ppg, except maybe Magic (a pretty high bar of charisma for any black guy to match in order to get MVP at 15 ppg).. But a guy like Lebron or CP3 or Isiah are just as smart at basketball as Nash.

[tpols]

.
05' Amare...... 26.6 PER.. 0.243 WS/48.. 4.7 BPM.. 4.4 VORP... 26.0 on 62 TS... 7.6 +/-.. 10.4 net rating
05' Nash........ 22.0 PER.. 0.203 WS/48.. 4.7 BPM.. 4.4 VORP... 15.5 on 61 TS... 8.9 +/-.. 12.9 net rating

* Amare averaged 37 vs Duncan in playoffs and faced max defensive attention (carried scoring load)





One can attribute the turnaround in 2005 to getting rid of "cancer" Marbury, which is similar to the 23' Lakers winning after getting rid of Westbrick... Amare also went from a nobody to All-NBA in 2005 and the next big thing (37 ppg vs Duncan in the playoffs) - he dominated the Suns' statistically in regular season and playoffs..

Accordingly, Nash and his 15 ppg was over-credited with the Suns' turnaround.. And again, blacks aren't capable of getting MVP with 15 ppg, except maybe Magic (a pretty high bar of charisma for any black guy to match in order to get MVP at 15 ppg).. But a guy like Lebron or CP3 or Isiah are just as smart at basketball as Nash.

Then how come Lebron never led a #1 ranked offense and assist team like Nash did many times despite playing with players better than Amare like Wade and AD?

Your letting your racism towards whites contradict all of your previously uttered a million times theses.

[3ba11]

Then how come Lebron never led a #1 ranked offense and assist team like Nash did many times despite playing with players better than Amare like Wade and AD?

Your letting your racism towards whites contradict all of your previously uttered a million times theses.


Nash might have higher IQ than Lebron, but that isn't necessarily saying much or worthy of MVP.

Tyrese Haliburton just turned around the Pacers by producing the #1 assist team and #2 offense, which compares to the 05' Suns being #3 in team assists and #1 offense.

Lots of guys have great offenses or high-assist teams - that doesn't make them MVP - Haliburton got no consideration for MVP despite doing what Nash did in 05' and WITHOUT a teammate that was actually the better player and statistical leader like Amare.

[warriorfan]

Nash might have higher IQ than Lebron, but that isn't necessarily saying much or worthy of MVP.

Tyrese Haliburton just turned around the Pacers by producing the #1 assist team and #2 offense, which compares to the 05' Suns being #3 in team assists and #1 offense.

Lots of guys have great offenses or high-assist teams - that doesn't make them MVP - Haliburton got no consideration for MVP despite doing what Nash did in 05' and WITHOUT a teammate that was actually the better player and statistical leader like Amare.

This is a good point. Part of the reason Nash may have gotten a boost was the state of the league in that era was dominated by heavy defense and very low scoring games. So Nash “bringing back offense” could have been one of their narratives in selection. Personally I’ve been over the media based awards lately. It’s just dumb.

[And1AllDay]

mikey could elevate temmates like bran did with 12' wade 16' kyrie and 20' davis

mikey didnt raise the roof much we saw 94 bulls, mikey wasnt a top tier leader and could not pass so of course pippen could not become a scorer

[3ba11]

This is a good point. Part of the reason Nash may have gotten a boost was the state of the league in that era was dominated by heavy defense and very low scoring games. So Nash “bringing back offense” could have been one of their narratives in selection. Personally I’ve been over the media based awards lately. It’s just dumb.


Yeah this is true but in hindsight we can see that it was misplaced - it turns out that "Nash-ball" began the breeding of the low brand, drive-and-kick spammers that we see today and this brand underperforms our favored talent in the Olympics... All the disasters that we had in international play can be traced to Nash and his "mvp".. the overall ball-dominance and lack of 5-man basketball - other countries are better at 5-man basketball because we've been focusing on Nash-ball and all it's iterations like bron-ball or luka-ball or Westbrook, haloburton and many more ball-dominators

[ShawkFactory]

I know this is a fun little circle jerk we have going on here but the Pacers were 2nd in the league in team assists before Haliburton got there.

Phoenix went from 24th to 5th to 1st.

Not the same.

[sdot_thadon]

This thread is a case study in the stupidity of ppg being the only thing that matters in basketball......

[3ba11]

I know this is a fun little circle jerk we have going on here but the Pacers were 2nd in the league in team assists before Haliburton got there.

Phoenix went from 24th to 5th to 1st.

Not the same.


The point was that having a high-assist team, #1 offense, or big offensive turnaround are not MVP criteria - Lebron, Kobe and MJ got MVP without these things because they were carrying their team - it would be like giving the MVP to Sam Vincent in 88', or Mo Williams' in 09' - the arrival of Vincent in 88' did spur a turnaround, while the arrival of Mo's league-leading spacing and solid ball-handling added 21 wins and spurred a massive offensive turnaround for the 09' Cavs - but no one was thinking about these secondary producers for MVP.

Offensive turnarounds or high-assist teams have never been primary MVP criteria, nor should these things have been credited to Nash instead of other players or other reasons for the turnaround.

It's been noted that the Suns got rid of cancer Marbury, which can be attributed with the turnaround in a similar fashion to the Lakers being transformed once they got rid of cancer Westbrook - the replacement for these cancers is always going to look good, whether it's Nash or D'Angelo Russell.

Russell is an extreme example of course, which actually makes the point quite well - his great shooting and low turnovers "turned around" the Lakers' offense in the middle of the season after they got rid of Westbrook.. The Lakers became the hottest team in the league, yet he wasn't credited with MVP because he had teammates that averaged 10 ppg more than him (just like Nash did) - of course this is an extreme example but it still makes the point that Nash was over-credited with the turnaround.

In addition to getting rid of cancers, the emergence of the "next big thing" in Amare was a huge factor as well - he averaged 11 ppg more than Nash with higher stats across the board (posted in previous post above) - Amare was the high-producing "MJ" or "Lebron" force that was carrying the team and would normally be given the MVP consideration, not the low-producing set-up guy like Mo or Nash.

[And1AllDay]

3ballz dont be scared of me...

mikey could not elevate temmates like bran did with 12' wade 16' kyrie and 20' davis, mikey lacks leadership and passing

mikey didnt raise the roof much we saw 94 bulls, mikey wasnt a top tier leader and could not pass so of course pippen could not become a scorer

[dankok8]

3ball you sound like someone who doesn't understand team offense. Nash doesn't have to score more than 15 ppg (although he certainly could...) in order to be the offensive engine of his team. The reason Amare averaged 26 ppg on such great efficiency is BECAUSE he had Nash setting him up. You don't seem to get that. Nash was discombobulating those opposing defenses and putting the ball on the platter for the other Suns' players who mostly had to either finish dunks and layups or hit open threes. He made offense so easy!

To understand Nash's impact, look at this. Effective FG% or eFG% (accounts for extra value of 3 pt shots) for other Suns players who were top 7 in minutes when Nash is in the game vs. when Nash is out of the game.

Amare Stoudemire: +7.9%
Shawn Marion: +3.8%
Joe Johnson: +10.7%
Quentin Richardson: +4.6%
Jim Jackson: +18.0%
Leandro Barbosa: +10.2%
Steven Hunter: +4.0%

https://i.postimg.cc/kgxrPsq6/Nash-Impact-on-Teammates-2005-Suns.jpg

By the way, Phoenix's offensive rating was 120.0 with Nash ON and 102.8 with Nash OFF.

[tpols]

3ball you sound like someone who doesn't understand team offense. Nash doesn't have to score more than 15 ppg (although he certainly could...) in order to be the offensive engine of his team. The reason Amare averaged 26 ppg on such great efficiency is BECAUSE he had Nash setting him up. You don't seem to get that. Nash was discombobulating those opposing defenses and putting the ball on the platter for the other Suns' players who mostly had to either finish dunks and layups or hit open threes. He made offense so easy!

To understand Nash's impact, look at this. Effective FG% or eFG% (accounts for extra value of 3 pt shots) for other Suns players who were top 7 in minutes when Nash is in the game vs. when Nash is out of the game.

Amare Stoudemire: +7.9%
Shawn Marion: +3.8%
Joe Johnson: +10.7%
Quentin Richardson: +4.6%
Jim Jackson: +18.0%
Leandro Barbosa: +10.2%
Steven Hunter: +4.0%

https://i.postimg.cc/kgxrPsq6/Nash-Impact-on-Teammates-2005-Suns.jpg

By the way, Phoenix's offensive rating was 120.0 with Nash ON and 102.8 with Nash OFF.

3ball only hates Steve Nash because he's white. He literally fullfills all of his talking points. Top assist team, top offense, 60+ win teams... tbh the 2007 Suns would've been champs if Stern didn't screw them in the Spurs series.

[tpols]

Yo did this guy really just compare Steve Nash to Mo Williams.

:roll:

Wè done with 3ball. This guy is a clown of the highest order.

[ShawkFactory]

3ball only hates Steve Nash because he's white. He literally fullfills all of his talking points. Top assist team, top offense, 60+ win teams... tbh the 2007 Suns would've been champs if Stern didn't screw them in the Spurs series.

Nah he touts Bird. It’s because he’s so entrenched in the narratives of someone needing to carry the “scoring load” and shitting on the primary ball handler. Nash not carrying that load and handling the ball ticks both of those narrative boxes so he has to put on the front of hating on him.

I’m sure outside of the 3ball persona he’d be perfectly reasonable and respectful of him and his game.

[tpols]

Nah he touts Bird. It’s because he’s so entrenched in the narratives of someone needing to carry the “scoring load” and shitting on the primary ball handler. Nash not carrying that load and handling the ball ticks both of those narrative boxes so he has to put on the front of hating on him.

I’m sure outside of the 3ball persona he’d be perfectly reasonable and respectful of him and his game.

Except he's blatantly said Nash, Jokic, Dirk etc. only get credit because they're white in this very thread.

[ShawkFactory]

Except he's blatantly said Nash, Jokic, Dirk etc. only get credit because they're white in this very thread.

Fair enough. I admittedly don’t read most of what he says anymore :lol

Pretty sure he’s given Jokic and Dirk props before though. They’re exactly what he looks for in a player.

[tpols]

Fair enough. I admittedly don’t read most of what he says anymore :lol

Pretty sure he’s given Jokic and Dirk props before though. They’re exactly what he looks for in a player.

That's only because they beat Lebron. Literally the only reason. :lol

[ShawkFactory]

That's only because they beat Lebron. Literally the only reason. :lol

Probably :lol

Also with the “expert jump shooter” and “fundamental big” thing. Dirk and Jokic are the definition of both, respectively.

[3ba11]

3ball you sound like someone who doesn't understand team offense. Nash doesn't have to score more than 15 ppg (although he certainly could...)

in order to be the offensive engine of his team. .


I never said any of this - you just changed what I said to "nash wasn't an effective engine for the offense" so you could argue against that

But I never said that... I said that Nash didn't deserve MVP, which he clearly didn't.

No black person could win MVP at 15 ppg unless they penetrated the racist white psyche with one-of-a-kind charisma like Magic... Otherwise, your intelligence isn't valued so Lebron can have all the genius IQ in the world, but he'll never get MVP at 15 ppg.. And I don't even think Magic won it at 15 ppg.. only a white dude

[3ba11]

Fair enough. I admittedly don’t read most of what he says anymore :lol

Pretty sure he’s given Jokic and Dirk props before though. They’re exactly what he looks for in a player.


Jokic and Dirk carried their teams, while Nash GOT carried by teammates that averaged 10 more ppg

You guys are the one reaching while I'm just stating the sobering facts

Nash was the low-producing setup guy for the team-carrying athletic force and statistical force (Amare), just like Mo or Vincent carrying water for Lebron or MJ .. Sure Nash is much better than Mo but their secondary roles to the real team-carrier are the same.

[dankok8]

I never said any of this - you just changed what I said to "nash wasn't an effective engine for the offense" so you could argue against that

But I never said that... I said that Nash didn't deserve MVP, which he clearly didn't.

No black person could win MVP at 15 ppg unless they penetrated the racist white psyche with one-of-a-kind charisma like Magic... Otherwise, your intelligence isn't valued so Lebron can have all the genius IQ in the world, but he'll never get MVP at 15 ppg.. And I don't even think Magic won it at 15 ppg.. only a white dude

Bill Russell won MVP averaging 14.1 ppg in 1965.

Nash deserved the 2005 MVP for leading the Suns to one of the biggest single season turnarounds and the best record in the league. Other MVP candidates who were better individual players than Nash had weak seasons from an individual and/or team standpoint. Winning MVP doesn't mean Nash was the best player in the league. He wasn't.

[3ba11]

Bill Russell won MVP averaging 14.1 ppg in 1965.

Nash deserved the 2005 MVP for leading the Suns to one of the biggest single season turnarounds and the best record in the league. Other MVP candidates who were better individual players than Nash had weak seasons from an individual and/or team standpoint. Winning MVP doesn't mean Nash was the best player in the league. He wasn't.


The turnaround was due to getting rid of cancer Marbury just like the Lakers became the hottest team after getting rid of Westbrick... And also Amare went from a nobody to the next big thing and statistical carrier of the team..

Nash was the low-producing setup guy for the team-carrying athletic force and statistical force (Amare), just like Mo or Vincent carrying water for Lebron or MJ .. Sure Nash is much better than Mo but their secondary roles to the real team-carrier are the same.

Btw, you're making my point by citing Russell as your lone example

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

Nash didn't deserve MVP in 05' and Lebron is the only guy in history that had his sidekick outplay the league MVP - it's impossible to lose in this scenario since Malone would've easily won the 98' Finals if Stockton outplayed MVP MJ.. Since Lebron had this kind of unprecedented and unbeatable help, his 16' ring doesn't have the best-ever ring quality - not even close when you also consider unprecedented suspensions and injuries.

[Phoenix]

Yo did this guy really just compare Steve Nash to Mo Williams.

:roll:

Wè done with 3ball. This guy is a clown of the highest order.


https://media.tenor.com/CBLX9z1_Dn4AAAAM/fresh-prince-we.gif
How many times have you latched yourself onto his bullshit trying to play devils advocate? You ain't part of the 'We' that's been done with this dude.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://media.tenor.com/CBLX9z1_Dn4AAAAM/fresh-prince-we.gif
How many times have you latched yourself onto his bullshit trying to play devils advocate? You ain't part of the 'We' that's been done with this dude.
For real, 95% of the time he’s his little lapdog :lol

[Hey Yo]

Rodman, the 5th option in 96 took multiple FMVP votes away from an MVP and FMVP.

First and only time the 5th option has done that. Will never happen again.

5th option avg. 7ppg got multiple FMVP votes over Jordan

[sdot_thadon]

5th option avg. 7ppg got multiple FMVP votes over Jordan

https://i.postimg.cc/PqP8pwW1/rodman.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[And1AllDay]

3ballllll only hates Nash cuz he beat up his one tru love goatbe bryant

[dankok8]

The turnaround was due to getting rid of cancer Marbury just like the Lakers became the hottest team after getting rid of Westbrick... And also Amare went from a nobody to the next big thing and statistical carrier of the team..

Nash was the low-producing setup guy for the team-carrying athletic force and statistical force (Amare), just like Mo or Vincent carrying water for Lebron or MJ .. Sure Nash is much better than Mo but their secondary roles to the real team-carrier are the same.

Btw, you're making my point by citing Russell as your lone example

Dude Nash wasn't the best player in the league in 2005 but he deserved the MVP.

Who would you have as the MVP in 2005? Kobe, Garnett, Lebron all missed the playoffs. Wade/Shaq shared the credit for the Heat turnaround. Duncan missed 16 games and had a weak regular season statistically. Pistons were an ensemble team. Maybe Dirk? Still, the other stars in the league mostly all had weak seasons so Nash was kind of a default winner.

[3ba11]

.
2005 Nash vs Stockton as a starter (88-03')

88-03' Stockton (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1988-2003-sum:advanced)'..... 22.5 PER.. 7.3 BPM.. 0.217 WS/48.. 7.0 VORP... 14/3/11 on 62 TS... 2.2 spg.. 3.0 tov
2005 Nash (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html)............. 22.0 PER.. 4.4 BPM.. 0.203 WS/48.. 4.7 VORP... 15/3/11 on 61 TS... 1.0 spg.. 3.3 tov




Dude Nash wasn't the best player in the league in 2005 but he deserved the MVP.

Who would you have as the MVP in 2005? Kobe, Garnett, Lebron all missed the playoffs. Wade/Shaq shared the credit for the Heat turnaround. Duncan missed 16 games and had a weak regular season statistically. Pistons were an ensemble team. Maybe Dirk? Still, the other stars in the league mostly all had weak seasons so Nash was kind of a default winner.


All the guys you mentioned carried their teams, so any of them could've won MVP over a secondary producer and setup guy like Scott Skiles, Stockton, or a fancier version like Nash.. It's crazy how Nash was 2x MVP but someone like Stockton that was superior across the board (above) was never even considered for MVP... That's because the setup guy normally isn't considered for MVP, with rare exception (the best big PG's).

[dankok8]

.
2005 Nash vs Stockton as a starter (88-03')

88-03' Stockton (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1988-2003-sum:advanced)'..... 22.5 PER.. 7.3 BPM.. 0.217 WS/48.. 7.0 VORP... 14/3/11 on 62 TS... 2.2 spg.. 3.0 tov
2005 Nash (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html)............. 22.0 PER.. 4.4 BPM.. 0.203 WS/48.. 4.7 VORP... 15/3/11 on 61 TS... 1.0 spg.. 3.3 tov






All the guys you mentioned carried their teams, so any of them could've won MVP over a secondary producer and setup guy like Scott Skiles, Stockton, or a fancier version like Nash.. It's crazy how Nash was 2x MVP but someone like Stockton that was superior across the board (above) was never even considered for MVP... That's because the setup guy normally isn't considered for MVP, with rare exception (the best big PG's).

Dude I posted the numbers showing you how the entire team show the lights out when Nash played. He had higher impact than Stockton despite similar stats.

[3ba11]

Dude I posted the numbers showing you how the entire team show the lights out when Nash played. He had higher impact than Stockton despite similar stats.


All ball-dominators have high impact stats and Stockton's is higher than Nash's based on plus/minus (below), net rating, or any advanced boxscore stat (BPM, WS, etc):



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2021/o8DptW.gif


Let's review - Stockton leads Nash in passing, plus/minus, net rating, true shooting, defense, and all advanced boxscore stats (BPM, WS/48, VORP, PER).

And by wide margins across the board.

[SouBeachTalents]

All ball-dominators have high impact stats and Stockton's is higher than Nash's based on plus/minus (below), net rating, or any advanced boxscore stat (BPM, WS, etc):



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2021/o8DptW.gif


Let's review - Stockton leads Nash in passing, plus/minus, net rating, true shooting, defense, and all advanced boxscore stats (BPM, WS/48, VORP, PER).

And by wide margins across the board.
Damn, Pippen ahead of Hakeem, Kobe, Dr. J, Durant & KG

[ShawkFactory]

Damn, Pippen ahead of Hakeem, Kobe, Dr. J, Durant & KG

That one really backfired :lol

[3ba11]

Damn, Pippen ahead of Hakeem, Kobe, Dr. J, Durant & KG


i'm just using his argument against him - he acknowledged that Stockton's stats on offense and defense annihilate peak Nash, so he brought up plus/minus and impact stats, where we see that Stockton destroys Nash in that too...

But personally I hate plus-minus - it's based a lot on winning and chemistry (team effectiveness and success) - for example, Kukoc was third in the league behind MJ and Pippen in plus/minus during the 2nd three-peat.. Take MJ off that team and no one has any plus/minus because it would be a borderline .500 team like 95' before he returned.

[SouBeachTalents]

i'm just using his argument against him - he acknowledged that Stockton's stats on offense and defense annihilate peak Nash, so he brought up plus/minus and impact stats, where we see that Stockton destroys Nash in that too...

But personally I hate plus-minus - it's based a lot on winning and chemistry (team effectiveness and success) - for example, Kukoc was third in the league behind MJ and Pippen in plus/minus during the 2nd three-peat.. Take MJ off that team and no one has any plus/minus because it would be a borderline .500 team like 95' before he returned.
They actually won 55 games without him in '94, so their plus/minus would likely be very good.

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[RRR3]

You have been posting about the same thing for well over a decade now. How can you not see this is unhealthy behavior. See a therapist, seriously. You will actually feel better.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2024/21yvSq.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2024/5EZjOa.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2024/hadCnG.gif




They actually won 55 games without him in '94, so their plus/minus would likely be very good.


The issue is that the best teams have the best chemistry and several fine-tuned lineups that are almost never not on the floor - so the rare times that the wrong combination of bums is out there, the team has like a 5 ORTG compared to the 115 for the 99% of the time that the finely-tuned lineups are out there.. That makes for elite plus-minus from JR Smith-level guys like Kukoc or Shumpert-level guys like old Harper

Of course, it wasn't remotely surprising that once opponents woke up in the playoffs, Pippen was exposed and the "real" Bulls without MJ were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. It's intuitive that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95'.